Sigh.

Step 1:
If you decide you wish to continue to do PI in Low Sec, simply keep doing what you are doing. The Interbus CO is still there. Wait for prices to stabilize. You will still make more money than you would on a similar number of planets in High Sec despite a slightly higher tax rate due to the larger volume available.

Step 2:
Keep this up until you are comfortable with the threat level to PI operations in your chosen area. If the Interbus CO gets blown up in short order, keep an eye on if it is replaced and if it is see if it's available for your use at a reasonable rate... if not trash your setup and move on. You have lost nothing but the infrastructure you are currently thinking about trashing anyway.

If your Interbus CO stays up (which is likely) you can then make an educated threat assessment concerning the option of putting up your own. Contrary to popular belief, shooting down structures is not a fun enterprise. In fact is is one of the highest rated items on the "things to try and avoid doing in EVE" list unless you have an eye on that corner of space yourself.

Step 3:
Keep track of your now improved income. Pay off your investment in the POCO and continue to earn higher profits than the majority of your competition.

Step 4:
If your POCO does get blown up, check your records and see if the venture paid for itself and produced a better profit than a High Sec operation for a comparable period of time.

If it did, and the people that blew up your POCO are not new residents to the area likely to do it again, put up another one.

If it did not, or if the people look like they are new residents, aggressive, and unwilling to work with you then search for a more profitable area.


This really isn't that hard a concept to grasp people.

I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.

We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why.

The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.

With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.

By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden.

For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi

I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.

We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why.

The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.

With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.

By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden.

For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi

"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes."
http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp

Mind changing this to reflect that it's closer to 100 times the old values for P1 and P2? I'd checked there and the two dev blogs before putting in a petition, and drew the conclusion it was bugged.

If anyone's wondering what the tax rates were changed from:
P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit
P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit
P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit
P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit
P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit

+edit:
I would suggest that a change be made to make single-planet production easier: allow processors to be grouped so that you can change from one material to another and reroute faster.

Tell you what, you can charge whatever stupid tax rate you want for the Interbus etc CO's. Give me a ship I can train up to fly to the surface to bring the stuff off myself.

This means new skills, new ships AND will give those DUST weasels something else to shoot the heck out of if/when CCP actually gets their **** together and brings it to market!

Personally I see no big deal here. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to make isk out the yin yang with PI if your willing to put a little patiennce into it. As for my experience with the chages, in less that 24 hours me and my corp mate had all six interbus sites destroyed, new corp owned ones put up to cut taxes out all together in our WH.

As for the prices, well I am loving how they have jumped over 4k per unit on the stuff I produce over night. So please yes quit PI throw in the towell, and sit on the fourms and whine while I grow rich in EvE. Heaven forbid you do anything constructive like make your own centers in low sec, talk with similar corps about building and protecting some to use in low sec, NPC null, WH etc. I always forget this is EvE online instead of actually geting off your rear to work around a problem or go around it... lets just flood the forum with tears as usual.

Perhaps fortunately my little lowsec PI empire was starting to bore me senseless to the point of giving it up - so the tax issue is almost a relief in that at least the short term I won't be doing any more PI.

Regardless, those complaining, probably don't understand that this is a mess that CCP can't back down from. They aren't going to give up their only, rather tenuous, link for EVE to DUST and possibly the millions invested in that game by reverting to the old system, despite enraging large numbers of High/Low/WH PI industrialists. DUST with no EVE link, though possible, would be pointless. We can only hope at this stage that DUST isn't a complete flop. I for one am interested in at least trying it.

FWIW, quick calculations on my lowsec PI showed that the new tax regime, and base prices (I only exported one batch from a planet prior to saying screw it) now sucks up 33% of T1 materials profit.
L4's generally seem to be more engaging, less effort and more profit than PI from 15 planets. Possibly more time consuming, however PI was becoming a misery much like keeping track of POS fuel timers used to be. My hoarded POS fuel materials on the other hand when prices are spiked nicely, will keep me in skill books and ships for years to come, and not running a POS will be nice for those 'downtime' periods we all have from time to time.

Good Luck CCP, I just hope this calculated gamble works and you don't lose more from this than you gain from DUST.

Still doesn't change the fact that the taxes are ridiculous, you should allow at least 200% tax rates for these to actually mean something, even a 15 or 20% tax rate for interbus CO's won't bother anyone, In fact I don't see anyone spending 1B on a system just to gain 5M isk per month.

Apart from that the changes are quite good, this is gonna make PI a lot more interesting and fun to manage :D

the spec was quite clearly not analyzed by ANYONE WHO KNOWS A DAMN THING ABOUT THE ECONOMY.

And CCP Dr.EyjoG hasn't been heard from since August.

What do you mean? He's been working on his CNR fit.

"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes."
http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp

Mind changing this to reflect that it's closer to 100 times the old values for P1 and P2? I'd checked there and the two dev blogs before putting in a petition, and drew the conclusion it was bugged.

If anyone's wondering what the tax rates were changed from:
P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit
P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit
P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit
P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit
P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit

+edit:
I would suggest that a change be made to make single-planet production easier: allow processors to be grouped so that you can change from one material to another and reroute faster.

I have 4 accounts, all fully funded by PI. My math proves that this is no longer possible.. goodbye 3/4 accounts, I will not be renewing them once their time runs out. Thanks CCP, oh and btw.. **** you.

I am sorry, whether you needed to change PI taxation is debatable, but the way you have done this, is rather reprehensible. It's gone from bad to worse to insulting.

1) Changes announced in Dev Blog - change stated as tax doubling among other things - changes controversial and feedback commences. (usual)
2) CCP seems to listen to feedback and a second Dev blog comes out with some changes - still stating tax doubling.
3) People, happy CCP is doing the 'new thing' and listening/compromising seems inline with the 'new ccp' publicly announced mode of operations. Most accept taxes doubling as it doesn't break the bank.
4) Patch notes come out confirming taxes doubling.

Upgrade day and people shocked to find in many cases the tax they have to pay has been multiplied by 100x or more.

5) After multiple confused/angry threads finally on like the 50th page an official response by CCP NULLarbor:

"Our apologies for not being more prompt with this message, the base prices were changed late in the piece after reviewing a lot of feedback. Still, the information is available now and we are happy with the current course so it is in your hands to see what you can do with it."

Lame apology (what feedback were they reviewing that made them do this God knows and they certainly aren't saying) basically back to the bad old-school CCP of 'we are happy so deal with it - the end'. Add to this many people have been told FOR WEEKS no more changes were allowed to all other items.

6) People aren't exactly thrliled with this crap of an explanation and many unaware start filing petitions CERTAIN some bug is at work because we all knew -and was announced repeatedly - taxes were simply doubling right?

Today on Eve news - front page - this:

"We have received a number of petitions, asking if new tax rates of the NPC Customs Offices are working properly as they are in some cases drastically higher compared to the pre-Crucible tax rates. Our developers have confirthis posmed that the tax rates match the design specifications."

So it matches design specifications? OH WHAT A RELIEF! Well that makes it all OK, and I am not talking just the massive tax increase far beyond what announced right up to launch, but in how it was put in despite all the official blogs and patch notes stating otherwise.

Oh and what in the world does 'confirthis posmed' mean? Seem like a rather rushed announcement to plaster that on your front page. More concerned with cutting down all the petitions rather than why they are happening?

Yes I hate the new tax, but in reality I hate more how you did this and how it's old CCP again. Yes it's just a game but I am morally offended regardless. Am sure there will be some stupid replies about my tears... sorry not crying... am just disappointed.

In other numbers, its this:
P0: 500%*old
P1: 6579%*old
P2: 10000%*old
P3: 1167%*old
P4: 270%*old
It'll be even higher at customs offices where the rate is higher than 10%.

I am sorry, whether you needed to change PI taxation is debatable, but the way you have done this, is rather reprehensible. It's gone from bad to worse to insulting.

1) Changes announced in Dev Blog - change stated as tax doubling among other things - changes controversial and feedback commences. (usual)
2) CCP seems to listen to feedback and a second Dev blog comes out with some changes - still stating tax doubling.
3) People, happy CCP is doing the 'new thing' and listening/compromising seems inline with the 'new ccp' publicly announced mode of operations. Most accept taxes doubling as it doesn't break the bank.
4) Patch notes come out confirming taxes doubling.

Upgrade day and people shocked to find in many cases the tax they have to pay has been multiplied by 100x or more.

5) After multiple confused/angry threads finally on like the 50th page an official response by CCP NULLarbor:

"Our apologies for not being more prompt with this message, the base prices were changed late in the piece after reviewing a lot of feedback. Still, the information is available now and we are happy with the current course so it is in your hands to see what you can do with it."

Lame apology (what feedback were they reviewing that made them do this God knows and they certainly aren't saying) basically back to the bad old-school CCP of 'we are happy so deal with it - the end'. Add to this many people have been told FOR WEEKS no more changes were allowed to all other items.

6) People aren't exactly thrliled with this crap of an explanation and many unaware start filing petitions CERTAIN some bug is at work because we all knew -and was announced repeatedly - taxes were simply doubling right?

Today on Eve news - front page - this:

"We have received a number of petitions, asking if new tax rates of the NPC Customs Offices are working properly as they are in some cases drastically higher compared to the pre-Crucible tax rates. Our developers have confirthis posmed that the tax rates match the design specifications."

So it matches design specifications? OH WHAT A RELIEF! Well that makes it all OK, and I am not talking just the massive tax increase far beyond what announced right up to launch, but in how it was put in despite all the official blogs and patch notes stating otherwise.

Oh and what in the world does 'confirthis posmed' mean? Seem like a rather rushed announcement to plaster that on your front page. More concerned with cutting down all the petitions rather than why they are happening?

Yes I hate the new tax, but in reality I hate more how you did this and how it's old CCP again. Yes it's just a game but I am morally offended regardless. Am sure there will be some stupid replies about my tears... sorry not crying... am just disappointed.

I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.

We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why.

The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.

With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.

By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden.

For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi

If the taxes are hard, please stop doing PI so I can make even more ISK.

The market will find prices that incentivise creative solutions. Think low sec cartels, actually defending PCO's, etc...

I would say shame on the whiners, but they are fairly entertaining in a sad pitiful way.

oh the tears, this is so good, please post more

I have the same numbers of cc in 6 chars and I get 2B each month (in low sec), so you are doing something very wrong!!!

Just to give you and idea of the impact, these new taxes cut my profits in 350M each month, so I'm going to wait until the prices go up to cover for these new production costs before I sell my stuff. Prices will go up, so nobody will loose nothing, the only diference is that you have to put some money upfront until you get the product in the market and sell it.

I'm not sure people quite understand what is happening here.

CCP the taxes are not going up by some random percentage rolled by CCP Guard on his mystical board of Dev Deviousness hashing out what tax rates we get. From what has been said and what has been done, it looks like we're moving away from the old per/unit flat tax and looking at a market-based value. This, contrary to belief is far more likely to help even the playing fields for smaller corps all the while pecking at the large indy corps that sell and buy high volume.

I actually think it's a far better tax then what we had before. The one thing I look forward to is a full explanation on exactly how they will work as I don't really understand how they would collect that kind of data. Definetly curious.

I'm not sure people quite understand what is happening here.

CCP the taxes are not going up by some random percentage rolled by CCP Guard on his mystical board of Dev Deviousness hashing out what tax rates we get. From what has been said and what has been done, it looks like we're moving away from the old per/unit flat tax and looking at a market-based value. This, contrary to belief is far more likely to help even the playing fields for smaller corps all the while pecking at the large indy corps that sell and buy high volume.

I actually think it's a far better tax then what we had before. The one thing I look forward to is a full explanation on exactly how they will work as I don't really understand how they would collect that kind of data. Definetly curious.

On a related note a tax rate based on market value is a far better, healthier dynamic than based on an arbitrary (low ball) fictitious value that remains static.

The main point of these changes is as obvious as it is simple. That being to provide incentive to take chances on low sec PI POCO's. Note I did not say force.

A person will make roughly what they did before this patch doing High Sec PI once the prices stabilize.
A person will make slightly better money, despite a somewhat higher tax rate, by doing Low Sec PI via Interbus.
A person will make a much better profit margin putting up their own POCO.

The overall value of PI products goes up significantly, which is important for EVE and DUST.
The overall value of planets with existing infrastructure (at this point a POCO) goes up significantly, which is important for EVE and DUST.
Another point of conflict is produced, which is important for everyone.

Individual PI producers have free but taxed customs offices that cannot be blown up. This encourages them to work on basic raw material production, or purchasing the raw materials to make high tier items. It becomes trickier to produce the whole P4 chain from start to finish profitably. Consequently the granularity of pricing between the different tiers of PI products becomes more defined.

This single move restructures the whole industry, and puts serious money on the line instead of meaningless peanuts. It gives the whole process meaning, and raises the stakes.

I quite understand why people are shaken up, there was a failure to fully explain how the taxation would be determined before the patch. It's also going to be a rough transition, with many people getting confused and throwing up their hands... or getting taken advantage of (welcome to EVE). But when the air clears, PI will be a much more significant factor in the EVE economy, and be a large step closer to being something worth fighting over.

I'm just laughing at how badly CCP failed on this one. Utterly ridiculous.

I actually think the High Sec tax is a decent move. My biggest beef with this whole thing was that this whole patch was a big "send more newbs to High-Sec" scheme. Now it's a little better, but still doesn't fix the utterly ridiculous way in which you guys have nerfed PI for new players. As I said before, for big organized corps, this is a big boom. For new players? Screwed!!

Do you know how many new'ish players are going to leave null sec/low sec and go back to doing missions in high sec? I'm willing to bet the number is in the thousands.

Truly though, regardless of whether or not the new taxes are a good idea, you guys really screwed the pooch on preparing the community for it. Your subscribers are rightly pissed. They should be. First you said it would be "slightly higher" than current; then you changed it to "double"; then you changed it to 100x and never bothered to tell anyone!

It's like you're Nancy Pelosi: "You gotta pass the bill to see what's in it!"

silly.

CCP, you guys are pretty cool, but you totally pulled a Pelosi on this one. You should hire me for Crisis Management and Public Relations.

The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.

I am sorry, whether you needed to change PI taxation is debatable, but the way you have done this, is rather reprehensible. It's gone from bad to worse to insulting.

1) Changes announced in Dev Blog - change stated as tax doubling among other things - changes controversial and feedback commences. (usual)
2) CCP seems to listen to feedback and a second Dev blog comes out with some changes - still stating tax doubling.
3) People, happy CCP is doing the 'new thing' and listening/compromising seems inline with the 'new ccp' publicly announced mode of operations. Most accept taxes doubling as it doesn't break the bank.
4) Patch notes come out confirming taxes doubling.

Upgrade day and people shocked to find in many cases the tax they have to pay has been multiplied by 100x or more.

5) After multiple confused/angry threads finally on like the 50th page an official response by CCP NULLarbor:

"Our apologies for not being more prompt with this message, the base prices were changed late in the piece after reviewing a lot of feedback. Still, the information is available now and we are happy with the current course so it is in your hands to see what you can do with it."

Lame apology (what feedback were they reviewing that made them do this God knows and they certainly aren't saying) basically back to the bad old-school CCP of 'we are happy so deal with it - the end'. Add to this many people have been told FOR WEEKS no more changes were allowed to all other items.

6) People aren't exactly thrliled with this crap of an explanation and many unaware start filing petitions CERTAIN some bug is at work because we all knew -and was announced repeatedly - taxes were simply doubling right?

Today on Eve news - front page - this:

"We have received a number of petitions, asking if new tax rates of the NPC Customs Offices are working properly as they are in some cases drastically higher compared to the pre-Crucible tax rates. Our developers have confirthis posmed that the tax rates match the design specifications."

So it matches design specifications? OH WHAT A RELIEF! Well that makes it all OK, and I am not talking just the massive tax increase far beyond what announced right up to launch, but in how it was put in despite all the official blogs and patch notes stating otherwise.

Oh and what in the world does 'confirthis posmed' mean? Seem like a rather rushed announcement to plaster that on your front page. More concerned with cutting down all the petitions rather than why they are happening?

Yes I hate the new tax, but in reality I hate more how you did this and how it's old CCP again. Yes it's just a game but I am morally offended regardless. Am sure there will be some stupid replies about my tears... sorry not crying... am just disappointed.