Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 .. 28 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 28 post(s) |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
123
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:44:00 -
[511] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
You own this owns
yup, all my fives. |
Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:48:00 -
[512] - Quote
Peich Prime wrote:
Well It seems you're not very good at maths...
A POCO costs 255-275 Million each.
Actual prices from Amarr:
Custom Office gantry : 175M-195M 8x Broadcast Node 3M x 8 = 24 M 8x Recursive Computing Module 2.5M x 8 = 20 M 8x Self-harmonizing Power core 1.87M x8 = 14.96 M 8x Wetware Mainframe 2.5Mx8 = 20 M
1x POCO = 254.96-274.96M
Now say you use 6 planets to produce your goods... 254.96-274.96M x 6 = 1529.76M - 1649.76M
So if you are part of a small corporation you need like 3 month to amortize each one of the POCOS. 18 Month to amortize the whole set. And start to pray NOT to get your POCOs blown apart.
I think this is intended to make more people buy PLEX with real cash rather than using ISK... The PLEX prices rocketing through the roof and the ways to earn ISK going down the flush.... 2 + 2
Well I've just suspended my subscription in my second account. I'm not paying anymore for this.
Oh, seems I used the prices from BEFORE the change. My fault. :-D But anyway...
You must only take the 17% tax into account when you figure out when your POCOs pay off. Not the rest.
And I am really impressed if you somehow generate 250+M with a single colony... I do like 70M per month (after taxes) and consider that good.
No, the solution for POCOs can only be multiple colonies of different players on the same planet.
|
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:55:00 -
[513] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Our apologies for not being more prompt with this message, the base prices were changed late in the piece after reviewing a lot of feedback. Still, the information is available now and we are happy with the current course so it is in your hands to see what you can do with it.
The good part of this is that there's a better chance than otherwise that CO's that get destroyed will actually be replaced. That was one of my concerns I expressed early on, and it looks like you addressed it -- but opposite the way I would have suggested (make it less expensive and difficult to put up/replace a destroyed CO).
It also gives CO owners a better incentive to allow others to use the planet.
Overall, you've taken the high-risk / maybe-high-reward path. Since we're all just passengers on this universe-ship, I hope your gamble pays off.
One other thing I'd like to mention is that this completely changes the equation for single-planet vs multi-planet production, at least if you don't control the CO. I don't think doing single-planet production is a good thing; there's going to be less interaction. It's a lower-output, but also lower interaction strategy, and it's feasible to just launch your final output to space, removing just about all risk. I don't think this fits with your goals.
It would help some if it were a Value Added Tax, rather than a straight current-value tax. But that by itself wouldn't be enough, nor as strictly defined, even possible. I'd have to think about that some more.
But basically, my opinion remains that while there's a good idea here, you rushed it out, without taking enough time to think it through, manage risk, and communicate with your player base.
I think you could have done a MUCH better job with this, releasing it in the Summer expansion. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:55:00 -
[514] - Quote
There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:58:00 -
[515] - Quote
It may not have been well communicated but I'd know about the revalued commodities for the pas week, and I was on holiday, barely logging in to eve. These levels of taxation are needed to make pi a viable part of the sov game and many players had been arguing for them for a while. Right now hi-sec producers have lower taxes than anyone using interbus customs Offices. Yo're not getting singled out, everyone is playing by the same rules and that means prices will adjust to a new mean when the supply and demand settle. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:58:00 -
[516] - Quote
millsy4606 wrote:good, leave it as it is! this weekend im smashing pocos and setting up my own, then im gonna flood the market with fuel blocks. Pays to be a pirate in low sec, teach you high sec carebears to actually leave your comfort zone and come play. Isk isnt free and easy and it shouldnt be!
Well done CCP!
high fives all round
o/*\o
Have you tried it yet? Have fun with that. Please come back and let us know how many you manage. And how much fun you found it.
Seriously -- I'm both skeptical AND interested in your experience. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:01:00 -
[517] - Quote
Illectroculus Defined wrote:It may not have been well communicated but I'd know about the revalued commodities for the pas week, and I was on holiday, barely logging in to eve. These levels of taxation are needed to make pi a viable part of the sov game and many players had been arguing for them for a while. Right now hi-sec producers have lower taxes than anyone using interbus customs Offices. Yo're not getting singled out, everyone is playing by the same rules and that means prices will adjust to a new mean when the supply and demand settle.
That settling process is going to have some fairly painful collateral damage associated with it. But what can one do? I suppose if CCP is dead set on plowing through with an ill thought-out plan, there's nothing we can say to stop them. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:05:00 -
[518] - Quote
Calorn Marthor wrote: No, the solution for POCOs can only be multiple colonies of different players on the same planet.
I wonder what the average # of colonies per losec planet is now. And what it will be.
My experience is it's around 1.5 or so, but that may be biased by where I've done most of my losec PI, rather far from the security of hisec. It's also absurdly difficulty to observe other player's colonies, especially on large gas planets. It helps to scan for resources and set the settings to turn the entire planet white, but even then, it's a lot of work and you can miss operations and not realize it.
If you want more interaction -- make it easier to actually observe! |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:08:00 -
[519] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Dramaticus wrote:CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
You own this owns yup, all my fives. Does this mean that Goonswarm will be moving to take over after all? Is this enough ISK for you to spend time shooting-at-things-that-don't-shoot-back?
To give your proper due, I do think this probably is an improvement. It's certainly an interesting gamble, at the least. |
millsy4606
Combined Imperial Fleet JIHADASQUAD
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:09:00 -
[520] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:millsy4606 wrote:good, leave it as it is! this weekend im smashing pocos and setting up my own, then im gonna flood the market with fuel blocks. Pays to be a pirate in low sec, teach you high sec carebears to actually leave your comfort zone and come play. Isk isnt free and easy and it shouldnt be!
Well done CCP!
high fives all round
o/*\o
Have you tried it yet? Have fun with that. Please come back and let us know how many you manage. And how much fun you found it. Seriously -- I'm both skeptical AND interested in your experience.
tried which part? fuel block making? or PI?
in PI i run 5 planets all from p1 up to p3, fule blocks not yet, there in the oven for ME, but all parts are in hangar waiting to be made, BP for the poco already have just need to build then make the space (kill dirty interbus ones) good thing about a corp theres people that help attack/defend you didnt think i was gonna do this on my your own did you? |
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:09:00 -
[521] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:Calorn Marthor wrote: No, the solution for POCOs can only be multiple colonies of different players on the same planet.
I wonder what the average # of colonies per losec planet is now. And what it will be. My experience is it's around 1.5 or so, but that may be biased by where I've done most of my losec PI, rather far from the security of hisec. It's also absurdly difficulty to observe other player's colonies, especially on large gas planets. It helps to scan for resources and set the settings to turn the entire planet white, but even then, it's a lot of work and you can miss operations and not realize it. If you want more interaction -- make it easier to actually observe!
+1 to this.
Enhancing the PI interface is sorely needed. I want to be able to drag multiple nodes around so I don't have to move EACH INDIVIDUAL NODE when I really just want to extract from a large area for a specified duration. That's just one example of something that could be done to significantly reduce PI's pain. (Other issues aside) |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:14:00 -
[522] - Quote
millsy4606 wrote:ZaBob wrote:millsy4606 wrote:good, leave it as it is! this weekend im smashing pocos and setting up my own, then im gonna flood the market with fuel blocks. Pays to be a pirate in low sec, teach you high sec carebears to actually leave your comfort zone and come play. Isk isnt free and easy and it shouldnt be!
Well done CCP!
high fives all round
o/*\o
Have you tried it yet? Have fun with that. Please come back and let us know how many you manage. And how much fun you found it. Seriously -- I'm both skeptical AND interested in your experience. tried which part? fuel block making? or PI? in PI i run 5 planets all from p1 up to p3, fule blocks not yet, there in the oven for ME, but all parts are in hangar waiting to be made, BP for the poco already have just need to build then make the space (kill dirty interbus ones) good thing about a corp theres people that help attack/defend you didnt think i was gonna do this on my your own did you?
I'm referring to the smashing the Interbus CO's part of your plan.
And I'd like specifically to hear about your experience doing it as a corp. |
Damian Leon
nul-li-fy RED.OverLord
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:14:00 -
[523] - Quote
Many of you forget this all more to do with taking isk out of the game to curb inflation, than PI itself. Large alliances are going to cash in the biggest, they will now dominate nearly the entire market. With that said, the flow of isk is going to do two things.. its going to evaporate there will be less isk in the system, people will have less isk to buy plex and ships etc. This will drive the prices for ALL items down, an item is only worth something because someone is there to buy it. If there is less money in the system prices will be sold for alot less. Second the isk is going to be moved from smaller corps and alliances towards the bigger alliances, as large alliances control most the space of nullsec, and they will enviably charge those corps/alliances to use their interbus. As if there wasnt already a problem with large alliances selling isk for real money, i image this will too increase. Also if you consider isk to be a form of power, more isk more supercaps more titans, there will be certainly a land grab, the more space you own the more isk your going to create. This will affect market prices.. large wars and conflicts are going to shut down PI in certain areas. I predict highsec PI will become only profitable by producing raw materials, as the teired products will only be profitable in lowsec nullsec or wormhole space. |
Jaggins
Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:19:00 -
[524] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:Calorn Marthor wrote: No, the solution for POCOs can only be multiple colonies of different players on the same planet.
If you want more interaction -- make it easier to actually observe!
This is a great suggestion. There should be a show all installations setting with clear visibility.
|
mkint
419
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:21:00 -
[525] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote: Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?
Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.
There is no future in EVE for groups smaller than 2,000 people. That is why EVE will die. I don't know if devs are being bribed with RMT, or they are just incredibly myopic. Either way, I'm not sure I've ever been more convinced that EVE online has an expiration date, and that it's closer than anyone suspected. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:23:00 -
[526] - Quote
Damian Leon wrote:Many of you forget this all more to do with taking isk out of the game to curb inflation, than PI itself. Large alliances are going to cash in the biggest, they will now dominate nearly the entire market. With that said, the flow of isk is going to do two things.. its going to evaporate there will be less isk in the system, people will have less isk to buy plex and ships etc. This will drive the prices for ALL items down, an item is only worth something because someone is there to buy it. If there is less money in the system prices will be sold for alot less. Second the isk is going to be moved from smaller corps and alliances towards the bigger alliances, as large alliances control most the space of nullsec, and they will enviably charge those corps/alliances to use their interbus. As if there wasnt already a problem with large alliances selling isk for real money, i image this will too increase. Also if you consider isk to be a form of power, more isk more supercaps more titans, there will be certainly a land grab, the more space you own the more isk your going to create. This will affect market prices.. large wars and conflicts are going to shut down PI in certain areas. I predict highsec PI will become only profitable by producing raw materials, as the teired products will only be profitable in lowsec nullsec or wormhole space.
Um, restricting supply and adding costs is going to drive prices down?
Only if it produces a major recession to the point where nobody has ISK to buy things anyway. But then producers stop producing, too. People stopping doing stuff isn't good for the long-term health of the game or the company making it.
But I quite agree this is certainly shifting power and ISK further toward large alliances. I don't see that as healthy. I think they really should have made it easier for individuals and small corps to get into the action. I think it would have made for a much more robust economy. Centralization of power makes for instability. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:26:00 -
[527] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:Damian Leon wrote:Many of you forget this all more to do with taking isk out of the game to curb inflation, than PI itself. Large alliances are going to cash in the biggest, they will now dominate nearly the entire market. With that said, the flow of isk is going to do two things.. its going to evaporate there will be less isk in the system, people will have less isk to buy plex and ships etc. This will drive the prices for ALL items down, an item is only worth something because someone is there to buy it. If there is less money in the system prices will be sold for alot less. Second the isk is going to be moved from smaller corps and alliances towards the bigger alliances, as large alliances control most the space of nullsec, and they will enviably charge those corps/alliances to use their interbus. As if there wasnt already a problem with large alliances selling isk for real money, i image this will too increase. Also if you consider isk to be a form of power, more isk more supercaps more titans, there will be certainly a land grab, the more space you own the more isk your going to create. This will affect market prices.. large wars and conflicts are going to shut down PI in certain areas. I predict highsec PI will become only profitable by producing raw materials, as the teired products will only be profitable in lowsec nullsec or wormhole space. Um, restricting supply and adding costs is going to drive prices down? Only if it produces a major recession to the point where nobody has ISK to buy things anyway. But then producers stop producing, too. People stopping doing stuff isn't good for the long-term health of the game or the company making it. But I quite agree this is certainly shifting power and ISK further toward large alliances. I don't see that as healthy. I think they really should have made it easier for individuals and small corps to get into the action. I think it would have made for a much more robust economy. Centralization of power makes for instability.
See my post about my main beef with POCOs... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=448780#post448780
I think that'll get you there ^ |
millsy4606
Combined Imperial Fleet JIHADASQUAD
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:27:00 -
[528] - Quote
ill fraps it, stick it on you tube |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
291
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:35:00 -
[529] - Quote
mkint wrote:Scarlett Ninja wrote: Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?
Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.
There is no future in EVE for groups smaller than 2,000 people. That is why EVE will die. I don't know if devs are being bribed with RMT, or they are just incredibly myopic. Either way, I'm not sure I've ever been more convinced that EVE online has an expiration date, and that it's closer than anyone suspected.
I think i speak for us all when i say i can't wait for you to leave.
|
Tora Oni
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:36:00 -
[530] - Quote
How does getting tax up to 17%, people killing the custom office, building poco, setting it to 0% tax help balance the PI ? I probably need the same stuff CCP is smoking. |
|
Madlof Chev
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:43:00 -
[531] - Quote
WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE. Just deal with your stupid problems and get on with it. Fly some spaceships instead or something, sheesh. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:49:00 -
[532] - Quote
Madlof Chev wrote:WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE. Just deal with your stupid problems and get on with it. Fly some spaceships instead or something, sheesh.
That's just Test Alliance asking us to please ignore that they're being handed all the marbles, right?
Is whining about people whining the only reason you've been reading this thread? |
Desparo
Roid Ravagers Unitary Enterprises
9
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:50:00 -
[533] - Quote
Okay I think what the problem here is (at least what it is for me) is that you didn't properly communicate the exact changes being made to the taxes.
What you ment to say was that taxes will become a percentage of the value of items being imported and exported.
What you actually said was "CONCORD who will, in turn, charge doubled import and export taxes"
I can understand that this new initiative to communicate more with players takes some practice but you have to realize that the initiative needs to be split into 2 parts.
1) Communicate more. 2) Communicate better and more precisely.
This time you guys didn't follow part 2 all that well.
Bad commincation aside I don't object to the changes themselves. It does make more sense if your trying to get corporations to take over customs offices. And when people pay more in taxes they'll just pass that onto the buyers anyways.
|
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:03:00 -
[534] - Quote
Organic wrote: There've been lots of comments about "doubling export fees" versus "100x export fees"....in either case, why did CCP let players spend hundreds of hours planning, replanning, reorganizing, reoptimizing their PI operations only to have the high sec operations become mostly useless? Just a few minutes ago, the taxes I paid exporting raw materials just made refining them (or doing anything else with them) a loosing operation.
I'm pounding my head on the desk trying to figure out why I spent so much effort making PI work right (the dammed production line was hard enough to figure out).
So you're actually losing money on your PI now?
Let me guess you were running some factory planet system where you bought materials, shipped them to the planet and then ship the finished product to sell on the market at a profit, and you didn't figure the new tax rates into your calculations. I bet you bought new stuff in the last week, when you could have at least known about the new taxes if you'd been keeping up with the public discourse.
So, you'll be able to produce a pile of planet goo that now costs more than the current market prices. What do you do? You can sell them at a loss, or , you can hold onto them, like a lot of other people. There'll be a bunch of people not selling their stuff at a loss and when supply drops and demand stays the same then prices will rise towards their new equilibrium. I seriously doubt that aliiances will be producing enough high end PI stuff to supply the whole market, so the equilibrium will move to where it's profitable for the hi-sec players.
I on the other hand have been paying a lot of attention and knew when to invest my isk, and II'll be making a very healthy return on my investment. It's how things work in markets, the money doesn't appear magically from anywhere, you get it from other players who are out shooting rats and running missions. |
JediRobin
Globaltech Industries Sanctuary Pact
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:04:00 -
[535] - Quote
I think the new tax rates suck big time.
Bring back the old rate.
What would happen to eve if we all just stop making pi.
Yes the prices will go up, and change the economy.
Maybe we should all do that.
Then we can afford to do pi again. |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
58
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:16:00 -
[536] - Quote
shea ashler wrote: if i understand this rightly then the tax can only do one thing ant that is incease... because "By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value" when the tax goes up the price on the product goes up.. with this model the tax will then increase again or...?
I have no words... |
Dynamix Boon
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:16:00 -
[537] - Quote
While I agree with the spirit of the change, I don't think this change is going to have the effect intended.
I hope the market rebalances to keep small scale high sec PI still worth while. The modest passive income was very welcome. I also think it was a nice way to allow new players to make some pocket money without the mission running grind.
Rather than looking at risk/reward I to tend to look at the opportunity cost of PVP.
When looking at the opportunity cost of doing something in Eve, time is my most important factor. So if I lose a Taranis on a low sec roam with Funky Bacon, the cost is low if I can recover the ISK from the passive income with PI. If margins from PI become so low that I have to mission run (time intensive) to make up the ISK, the opportunity cost becomes much higher, making PVP less desirable. Less PVP is bad.
I still think player owned CO's are a good idea, but I think small scale PI should be viable. I fear this change may make PI only worthwhile for large player organisations with already massive income streams. |
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group The Veerhouven Group
37
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:18:00 -
[538] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
oh the tears, this is so good, please post more
As I said, it's no big deal. You'll have to look somewhere else for tears.
Location: Currently circling the toilet bowl that is Eve.
Member of the 6%ers. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:20:00 -
[539] - Quote
Dynamix Boon wrote:While I agree with the spirit of the change, I don't think this change is going to have the effect intended. I hope the market rebalances to keep small scale high sec PI still worth while. The modest passive income was very welcome. I also think it was a nice way to allow new players to make some pocket money without the mission running grind. Rather than looking at risk/reward I to tend to look at the opportunity cost of PVP. When looking at the opportunity cost of doing something in Eve, time is my most important factor. So if I lose a Taranis on a low sec roam with Funky Bacon, the cost is low if I can recover the ISK from the passive income with PI. If margins from PI become so low that I have to mission run (time intensive) to make up the ISK, the opportunity cost becomes much higher, making PVP less desirable. Less PVP is bad. I still think player owned CO's are a good idea, but I think small scale PI should be viable. I fear this change may make PI only worthwhile for large player organisations with already massive income streams.
We're using a tag "/signed for removal" to express a desire to remove POCO's in their current form.
|
Captain Evenwel
StoneCutterz Shotgun Weddings
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:20:00 -
[540] - Quote
So first we're not getting enough information, then it's too ambiguous, now we're to lazy to actually read the forums or use the search option to get an answer? Damn, I don't know how to win this one.
What I am very much curious to hear about is what Quote:we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden is supposed to indicate for the future of planets... :D |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 [18] 19 20 .. 28 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |