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CCP SoniClover C C P C C P Alliance 562	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:09:00 - [31] - Quote Cultural Enrichment wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: Kendra Zane wrote: It sounds like a reasonable idea but I'm concerned that most of the teams will end up in the same few systems because of the concentration of industry happening there and the easier spread of costs. I do like the idea of team creation being a PI activity. How many teams can be active in a system at once? How many active over the whole of New Eden? How often do they "spawn"? EDIT: This all feels a little too dynamic. Industry doesn't like moving around so it wouldn't surprise me if we ended up with a mostly similar cost for building the same thing, be it in a busy or empty system. The total number of teams is determined by how fast they are seeded. We will adjust this number based on usage and on how many different teams we have (for instance the seeding will speed up when we add invention teams). Currently it is around six teams per hour. 6 teams created each hour, as in 144 each day, over 4000 active simultanously? This sounds about right.

Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1304	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:10:00 - [32] - Quote I fail to see how this balances with an ME bonus. Either the ME bonus in materials saved is not worth the cost of the team in the system, and you don't use it, or it is worth the cost and you save by using it. It's a very linear bonus since either you save more than the team costs or you don't. Could you explain why your design philosophy felt this was a good approach to take creating such a linear bonus which allows you to 'pay' isk to actually save money overall.
Sugar Kyle Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder 570	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:10:00 - [33] - Quote Berluth Luthian wrote: I guess since teams can be used for POS/wormhole work, they can be summoned in systems where there isn't a station service for their respective specialty? I guess they live in your POS. Low Sec Lifestyle : An Eve Online Blog Candidate for CSM9
Salpun Global Telstar Federation Offices Masters of Flying Objects 709	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:10:00 - [34] - Quote I was hoping this would be a way for players to work together The game needs a way to indicate i am building this for this persons other job so peoples completed jobs feed other peoples work in process, kinda like PI works. It also needs a way for community world building so we can click on a object/ station that a player as requested the pilots around him help build and the players can see in game what parts are still needed and how long till the in space item is built. This conversation might need to be moved over to the UI blog but it is a point that needed to be said. Interesting new twist to the game. We just need a way to help them get well build into the game even if the team does not become playable again role players have a way they can combat the "slave labor" attitude of the feature. If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide See you around the universe.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 159	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:11:00 - [35] - Quote Cultural Enrichment wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: Kendra Zane wrote: It sounds like a reasonable idea but I'm concerned that most of the teams will end up in the same few systems because of the concentration of industry happening there and the easier spread of costs. I do like the idea of team creation being a PI activity. How many teams can be active in a system at once? How many active over the whole of New Eden? How often do they "spawn"? EDIT: This all feels a little too dynamic. Industry doesn't like moving around so it wouldn't surprise me if we ended up with a mostly similar cost for building the same thing, be it in a busy or empty system. The total number of teams is determined by how fast they are seeded. We will adjust this number based on usage and on how many different teams we have (for instance the seeding will speed up when we add invention teams). Currently it is around six teams per hour. 6 teams created each hour, as in 144 each day, over 4000 active simultanously? Yes seems so. So that would be 4032 teams active at one given time given a 28 day month. Which would equate to 16128 specialisations active. Seems like a very large amount. Not sure if this is a good thing or not though.
sci0gon Kaira Innovations Superior Eve Engineering 23	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:11:00 - [36] - Quote if its a isk sink you're looking for with this wouldn't it be better to seed them on the market for npc prices only and not allow them to be produced through PI later? item = random team selector (rts) the rts would picks teams dependant on the chance % to obtain them through a double clicking mechanism to open it and find out which team was won. this way it'd cause more of them to be bought to get the team they do want.
Bad Bobby Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust 404	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:11:00 - [37] - Quote Cultural Enrichment wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: Kendra Zane wrote: It sounds like a reasonable idea but I'm concerned that most of the teams will end up in the same few systems because of the concentration of industry happening there and the easier spread of costs. I do like the idea of team creation being a PI activity. How many teams can be active in a system at once? How many active over the whole of New Eden? How often do they "spawn"? EDIT: This all feels a little too dynamic. Industry doesn't like moving around so it wouldn't surprise me if we ended up with a mostly similar cost for building the same thing, be it in a busy or empty system. The total number of teams is determined by how fast they are seeded. We will adjust this number based on usage and on how many different teams we have (for instance the seeding will speed up when we add invention teams). Currently it is around six teams per hour. 6 teams created each hour, as in 144 each day, over 4000 active simultanously? And all in my wormhole. We're going to have to hire a better pool cleaner, as these academic types have poor personal hygine.
zahter Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:12:00 - [38] - Quote Very interesting and brilliant idea, however i fear big guys will monopolize the good teams. Little industrialists will find it difficult to win against giant empires.

CCP SoniClover C C P C C P Alliance 562	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:12:00 - [39] - Quote Medalyn Isis wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: Nalha Saldana wrote: Is there a minimum markup when bidding on a team? And if so is it % or fixed value? The minimum is based on the distance between the team's home system and the system you're bidding for. The current numbers are 10,000 ISK per jump (this is easily adjustable). You get the isk back though if you lose the auction. So I don't see how this is much of a deterrent unless there is no competition for bidding on teams. Perhaps make there be a fixed cost to bid on the team which would not count towards the auction bid, and is only taken if you win the auction. That would make a lot more sense. The intention here is not to have the distance act as a hard barrier or too much of a penalty. The way we see this is that very good teams will be competed on a global scale, because their value (and thus how much people are willing to pay to get them) is so high that meeting the minimum is no issue. For less good teams, there will be a cut-off point where the minimum price is higher than what you're willing to pay for the team, so that creates more localized market.

Kip Troger Exiled Kings The Fearless Empire 32	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:13:00 - [40] - Quote When you are bidding, do you actually put your isk into the pool for a system and it gets returned to you at the end of the auction if your system does not win? Is it a blind auction? Or Will you be able to see all system bids for that team? Can you put bids in for multiple systems?

Kai Hamabu Schizophrenics 0	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:13:00 - [41] - Quote Please call the "Teams" from Amarrspace Slaves. I will find them better ;)
Liner Xiandra Sparks Inc Zero Hour Alliance 317	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:14:00 - [42] - Quote No no no no. This introduces way to many variables for producers. - material price fluctuations - player activity - solar station count - item baseprice fluctuations - decryptor price fluctuations - team availablity - team rent Some of these variables can be controlled, but all together these will put any pricing predictions up in the air; how am I to determine that whatever I am building, is not going to be sitting in my hanger for the next 2 months because market prices swung?
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 159	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:15:00 - [43] - Quote CCP SoniClover wrote: Medalyn Isis wrote: CCP SoniClover wrote: Nalha Saldana wrote: Is there a minimum markup when bidding on a team? And if so is it % or fixed value? The minimum is based on the distance between the team's home system and the system you're bidding for. The current numbers are 10,000 ISK per jump (this is easily adjustable). You get the isk back though if you lose the auction. So I don't see how this is much of a deterrent unless there is no competition for bidding on teams. Perhaps make there be a fixed cost to bid on the team which would not count towards the auction bid, and is only taken if you win the auction. That would make a lot more sense. The intention here is not to have the distance act as a hard barrier or too much of a penalty. The way we see this is that very good teams will be competed on a global scale, because their value (and thus how much people are willing to pay to get them) is so high that meeting the minimum is no issue. For less good teams, there will be a cut-off point where the minimum price is higher than what you're willing to pay for the team, so that creates more localized market. Yes, I think I am understanding how this will work now. Sounds very interesting. I just think that spawn rate should be reduced by a factor of 3 and teams should last 3 months instead of 1. Or at a minimum, 2 months and teams spawn rate reduced by a factor of 2. 1 month is just to short a time to make any meaningful decision.
Bad Bobby Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust 404	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:16:00 - [44] - Quote Liner Xiandra wrote: No no no no. This introduces way to many variables for producers. - material price fluctuations - player activity - solar station count - item baseprice fluctuations - decryptor price fluctuations - team availablity - team rent Some of these variables can be controlled, but all together these will put any pricing predictions up in the air; how am I to determine that whatever I am building, is not going to be sitting in my hanger for the next 2 months because market prices swung? You didn't want a dumbed down industry system did you? Medalyn Isis wrote: 1 month is just to short a time to make any meaningful decision. I imagine you will pick your build location and then keep hiring in teams on an ongoing basis, so some beneficial effects will always be applied to your system. Having them last longer than a month is not needed in that case. They are spawned so often that there will be quite a few to go around.
Malthuz Silva Silva Enterprises 3	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:16:00 - [45] - Quote So everyone can use the teams, even my competitors? Thats not right, ill never pay a good team that will stimulate competition to come to "my" system. If somenone wins a auction he/she should have more beneficts. and wheres the Cooperative Players jobs?
Magic Crisp Amarrian Micro Devices Curatores Veritatis Alliance 158	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:19:00 - [46] - Quote Would there be an option to make teams private when hiring them? It's not that i dislike my mates in the system, but this has security implications. I know you prefer risk to reward, but we prefer things being controllable. Like if there's a particular industrial activity going on in a system, that might easily give a guess to others.
Berluth Luthian Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 187	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:21:00 - [47] - Quote Will the team seeds be absolutely random, potentially having nearly no value some of the time? What will happen to the effects from teams if their tenure is up part way through the completion of a job?
Bad Bobby Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust 404	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:24:00 - [48] - Quote Malthuz Silva wrote: So everyone can use the teams, even my competitors? Thats not right, ill never pay a good team that will stimulate competition to come to "my" system. If somenone wins a auction he/she should have more beneficts. and wheres the Cooperative Players jobs? If you want a local shop, for local people, and do not support this kind of communist city-folk behaviour, then you can go out in to the wilderness and take advantage of your cheap job prices in tumbleweed town. You have a choice.
Abrazzar Vardaugas Family 3098	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:24:00 - [49] - Quote Are there any plans to bring standings, both faction and corporation based into the system? Tax reduction? Faction Teams? Carthum Inventors? Anything like that? Is there anything at all planned for standings or are they made more and more obsolete? Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics
Cultural Enrichment Jenkem Puffing Association 29	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:25:00 - [50] - Quote Liner Xiandra wrote: No no no no. This introduces way to many variables for producers. - material price fluctuations - player activity - solar station count - item baseprice fluctuations - decryptor price fluctuations - team availablity - team rent Some of these variables can be controlled, but all together these will put any pricing predictions up in the air; how am I to determine that whatever I am building, is not going to be sitting in my hanger for the next 2 months because market prices swung? Taking risk? Knowing the market? Anticipating? Being smart?

probag Bear Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 35	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:25:00 - [51] - Quote Alright, so all the dev blogs are out now. Issues that have yet to be addressed: POS Arrays. As it stands, they are subject to the same installation cost and installation cost modifiers as a station in the same system. The drawbacks include fuel costs, risk, the need to manually move outputs/inputs between arrays (e.g invention BPCs from Labs into Assembly Arrays), and relative immobility compared to station-based operations. The benefits so far are the pre-existing time bonuses, ~10% lower installation compared to stations due to a lack of NPC tax, and a 2% reduction in material cost. As the 2% reduction has literally no effect on items that use fewer than 50 pricey components (rigs, T3, Damage Control IIs, etcetera), I'm personally of the opinion that this bonus is the wrong way to try to balance POS arrays. I'm of course biased because 100% of my production consists of items that would not get affected by the 2% reduction. Multiple POS Arrays. As it currently stands, there is no benefit whatsoever from having more than one array of a kind. I'm not ok with this. I'm of course biased because I'm running off 8 POSes' worth of S&I arrays right now, and was planning to expand that even. Accessibility of information (API endpoints). Large-scale manufacturers in Eve have had near-perfect information since they first began. Variable installation cost, as it currently stands, is on the same order of magnitude as current net profit for most items, and at least one order of magnitude higher than current net profit for many items. Lack of automated access to this information, be it via API endpoints or just simple deterministic formulas, would be the end of large-scale manufacturing. And I doubt small-scale manufacturers could ever pick up the slack. For Teams, this might be a smaller issue, since from what I gather Teams are supposed to be a purely optional, opportunistic bonus that is only sometimes available. For the cost scaling system however, this is critical. While some of the factors (system station density, station facilities) can be quickly scraped from the data dumped and thrown into formulas, there is no way to determine fraction of global job hours. Nevermind. If the fraction of global job hours is as non-swingy as you promise, this isn't enough of an issue for me to worry over. On the actual of subject of teams I'd like to comment on the obvious security issue present ["Oh hey, some backwater system with 20 jumps/day outbidded all of Jita for this one really valuable team. I wonder what kind of POSes I might find there?"], but I don't actually disagree with introducing that risk.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 160	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:28:00 - [52] - Quote Bad Bobby wrote: Medalyn Isis wrote: 1 month is just to short a time to make any meaningful decision. I imagine you will pick your build location and then keep hiring in teams on an ongoing basis, so some beneficial effects will always be applied to your system. Having them last longer than a month is not needed in that case. They are spawned so often that there will be quite a few to go around. Given that team composition is predefined, there might not actually be that many high quality teams of the specific type you are basing your manufacturing operations around. This is why at least having a 2 month window of use out of the team before it expires is essential imo.
Olari Vanderfall Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude 105	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:30:00 - [53] - Quote This really adds nothing but another column in my spreadsheet. It's like decryptors for other goods. Once I know my cost savings for materials, I'll know my maximum bid. Time saving is pretty much irrelevant for most items so only ME teams might be used. Probably won't even be worth the effort for small items.

CCP SoniClover C C P C C P Alliance 562	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:31:00 - [54] - Quote Kip Troger wrote: When you are bidding, do you actually put your isk into the pool for a system and it gets returned to you at the end of the auction if your system does not win? Is it a blind auction? Or Will you be able to see all system bids for that team? Can you put bids in for multiple systems? The money you bid is put into escrow (so you actually must have it). If you win, it is removed, if you lose, it is returned to you. Players will see the highest 5 bids for solar systems for a team. You can bid on multiple teams and on behalf of multiple systems, if you so choose.

DireNecessity The M.P.I. The Marmite Collective 39	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:31:00 - [55] - Quote Berluth Luthian wrote: What will happen to the effects from teams if their tenure is up part way through the completion of a job? I'm puzzled it wasn't covered in the Dev Blog - it is the obvious question
Ren Coursa Rapid Withdrawal 10	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:32:00 - [56] - Quote Liner Xiandra wrote: No no no no. This introduces way to many variables for producers. - material price fluctuations - player activity - solar station count - item baseprice fluctuations - decryptor price fluctuations - team availablity - team rent Some of these variables can be controlled, but all together these will put any pricing predictions up in the air; how am I to determine that whatever I am building, is not going to be sitting in my hanger for the next 2 months because market prices swung? How do you think it is running a major industry in real life? I work in one of my nations largest and the uncertainty and slew of variables seem very realistic. This is why most companies build to buffers and sell from those. Having large warehouses of unsold products, a "lean" produktionssystem where you can sell the product straight from the productionline is mostly a pipedream.
Quintessen Messengers of Judah Socius Inter Nos 398	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:32:00 - [57] - Quote Two major concerns: 1) How is this not simply going to go to whomever has the most coordinated effort to attract them and who already has the most money (major null-sec alliances). 2) When a team arrives people will likely shift production to their specialties for that system? How is that not likely to produce an oversupply for all involved meaning that using a team actually means less profit and not more? One of my first instincts is going to be seeing if using teams actually hurts a local system.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 160	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:32:00 - [58] - Quote Olari Vanderfall wrote: Time saving is pretty much irrelevant for most items I can see you are not a competent industrialist by this statement.

CCP SoniClover C C P C C P Alliance 562	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:33:00 - [59] - Quote Magic Crisp wrote: Would there be an option to make teams private when hiring them? It's not that i dislike my mates in the system, but this has security implications. I know you prefer risk to reward, but we prefer things being controllable. Like if there's a particular industrial activity going on in a system, that might easily give a guess to others. Teams are always public, available to anyone able to do a job in the system. Access can only be controlled on facility level.

Bad Bobby Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust 405	Posted - 2014.04.30 12:34:00 - [60] - Quote Medalyn Isis wrote: Bad Bobby wrote: Medalyn Isis wrote: 1 month is just to short a time to make any meaningful decision. I imagine you will pick your build location and then keep hiring in teams on an ongoing basis, so some beneficial effects will always be applied to your system. Having them last longer than a month is not needed in that case. They are spawned so often that there will be quite a few to go around. Given that team composition is predefined, there might not actually be that many high quality teams of the specific type you are basing your manufacturing operations around. This is why at least having a 2 month window of use out of the team before it expires is essential imo. With 4000 active at once, I expect you'll be able to find one that gives some benefit to your particular production speciality. If you diversify to several products, you can expect to effectively use more teams. If you specialise in something unusual, then you'll have little competition for teams that are highly focused in that area.



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