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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
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CCP Bayesian
1042
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Posted - 2014.05.20 11:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.
We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated. EVE Software Engineer Team Kuromaku |
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Sugar Kyle
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
587
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Posted - 2014.05.20 11:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yay! Low Sec Lifestyle - A Blog |
Scatha
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
20
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Posted - 2014.05.20 11:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
So long spew containers, don't let the door hit you on the way out. |
Xander Phoena
Zebra Corp Gentlemen's Agreement
385
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Posted - 2014.05.20 11:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Very cool. Was never a fan of the loot scattering mechanic. Didn't really 'fit' with how we do most of our actions in space in Eve. www.crossingzebras.com |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1417
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Posted - 2014.05.20 11:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Xander Phoena wrote:Very cool. Was never a fan of the loot scattering mechanic. Didn't really 'fit' with how we do most of our actions in space in Eve.
not that the whole team up for maximum yield thing was a bad idea, it just didn't work for a bunch of reasons, this is one of them.
good to see it go away, now let's talk about expanding the minigame :D GRRR Goons |
Noriko Mai
1357
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Posted - 2014.05.20 11:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Xander Phoena wrote:Very cool. Was never a fan of the loot scattering mechanic. Didn't really 'fit' with how we do most of our actions in space in Eve. not that the whole team up for maximum yield thing was a bad idea, it just didn't work for a bunch of reasons, this is one of them. good to see it go away, now let's talk about expanding the minigame :D Let's add "Insta finish that minigame Tokens" to the new store. |
Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
171
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Posted - 2014.05.20 12:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.
We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated.
Here is my feedback:
Personally, I do NOT share the distaste for the loot explosion. But it is certainly ok to remove it again.
BUT. Please don't cut the loot tables in half! Clever players were - even solo - able to get like 80% of the loot all the time (cargo scanner+choosing the right cans). The main thing you did with the loot explosion was that you GREATLY increased the supply for T2 salvage materials (and ESPECIALLY the rare, wanted ones since explorers are ofc first targetting the expensive stuff). Please have a look at the prices for T2 rigs in the last year. They were finally reasonable fitting options to consider in any situation. Which was imo one of the cool (although stealth) improvements in Odyssey. If you reduce the loot by 50%, you will pretty much kill off the use of those 300+ items again! (granted, some of this MAY be offset by more ppl doing exploration if the prices explode,but then again, they'll just find half as many items).
Just have a look at the F&I threadnaught about JF and Freighter rebalancing. The prices for Single-Crystal Superalloy I-Beams went through the roof after the announcement. Yet they are less than 20% (!!) of what they used to be before Odyssey (remember selling them for 8-10mil apiece).
So please, tune the loot down a bit if you feel you must, but not by 50% (maybe 10-20% would more realistically reflect what a good explorer today loses to the loot scattering mechanism).
And no, I am NOT doing exploration (tested it in length though after the Odyssey release, so I hope I know what I am talking about). |
Noriko Mai
1357
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 12:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.
We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated. Here is my feedback: Personally, I do NOT share the distaste for the loot explosion. But it is certainly ok to remove it again. BUT. Please don't cut the loot tables in half! Clever players were - even solo - able to get like 80% of the loot all the time (cargo scanner+choosing the right cans). The main thing you did with the loot explosion was that you GREATLY increased the supply for T2 salvage materials (and ESPECIALLY the rare, wanted ones since explorers are ofc first targetting the expensive stuff). Please have a look at the prices for T2 rigs in the last year. They were finally reasonable fitting options to consider in any situation. Which was imo one of the cool (although stealth) improvements in Odyssey. If you reduce the loot by 50%, you will pretty much kill off the use of those 300+ items again! (granted, some of this MAY be offset by more ppl doing exploration if the prices explode,but then again, they'll just find half as many items). Just have a look at the F&I threadnaught about JF and Freighter rebalancing. The prices for Single-Crystal Superalloy I-Beams went through the roof after the announcement. Yet they are less than 20% (!!) of what they used to be before Odyssey (remember selling them for 8-10mil apiece). So please, tune the loot down a bit if you feel you must, but not by 50% (maybe 10-20% would more realistically reflect what a good explorer today loses to the loot scattering mechanism). And no, I am NOT doing exploration (tested it in length though after the Odyssey release, so I hope I know what I am talking about). I quit exploration because of loot spew. It was just too annoying. With that removed I may do it again. So the reduction may be compensated a bit by more people doing exploration again. |
Orla- King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
53
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Posted - 2014.05.20 13:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Agreed, that splosion was really irritating. I'll have to try this again now that it's gone. |
Marcus Iunius Brutus
NerdRage Inc.
37
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Posted - 2014.05.20 13:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
I can't see your statistics but I can assume that any reasonable explorer was able to get all the worthwhile loot from data sites (less from relic sites) - most of the time only 1 type of can had notable loot (parts), sometimes data. If you reduce decryptor drop rate by half their price will go through the roof... |
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Burneddi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
101
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Posted - 2014.05.20 13:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.
We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated. Here is my feedback: Personally, I do NOT share the distaste for the loot explosion. But it is certainly ok to remove it again. BUT. Please don't cut the loot tables in half! And no, I am NOT doing exploration (tested it in length though after the Odyssey release, so I hope I know what I am talking about). Counter-intuitively, the removal of half of the loot will probably not do much to the income of explorers. If the prices explode and they'll just find half as many items, there may be little to no effect after a transition phase. The effect will be another: Clever players were - even solo - able to get like 80% of the loot all the time (cargo scanner+choosing the right cans). The main thing you did with the loot explosion was that you GREATLY increased the supply for T2 salvage materials (and ESPECIALLY the rare, wanted ones since explorers are ofc first targetting the expensive stuff). Please have a look at the prices for T2 rigs in the last year. They were finally reasonable fitting options to consider in any situation. Which was imo one of the cool (although stealth) improvements in Odyssey. If you reduce the loot by 50%, you will pretty much kill off the usage of those 300+ items again! Just have a look at the F&I threadnaught about JF and Freighter rebalancing. The prices for Single-Crystal Superalloy I-Beams went through the roof after the announcement. Yet they are less than 20% (!!) of what they used to be before Odyssey (remember selling them for 8-10mil apiece). So please, tune the loot down a bit if you feel you must, but not by 50% (maybe 10-20% would more realistically reflect what a good explorer today loses to the loot scattering mechanism). Quoting this for truth. Any explorer worth their salt would get practically all of the loot from the cans by knowing which cans were worth clicking on in the loot spill minigame.
If you're halving the loot tables, you're essentially halving the supply of these sites. I know the doubling thing was initially done because you guys thought people wouldn't be able to get all of the good loot from the site alone, but it ended up being one of the better changes in Odyssey. |
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CCP Bayesian
1044
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Posted - 2014.05.20 13:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
As I said above the loot balancing is a WIP but I'll make sure your feedback reaches the right ears. I'm pretty sure we don't want to ruin any serendipitous benefits of the changes we made. EVE Software Engineer Team Kuromaku |
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RcTamiya Leontis
Satan's Unicorns
22
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Posted - 2014.05.20 13:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Some people may hate me now... but why not get a wastefactof build in depending on how well you do in the minigame and rework the minigame a little bit, instead of removing loot (i am happy loot scattering gets removed :) ) |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1417
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Posted - 2014.05.20 13:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Marcus Iunius Brutus wrote:I can't see your statistics but I can assume that any reasonable explorer was able to get all the worthwhile loot from data sites (less from relic sites) - most of the time only 1 type of can had notable loot (parts), sometimes data. If you reduce decryptor drop rate by half their price will go through the roof...
don't forget that greyscale et al. have some significant changes for invention planned. everything industry is about to change and it's really hard to make some prediction on the actual outcome. GRRR Goons |
Sir Constantin
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2014.05.20 13:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Please add some rats or make it how it was a few years ago when even HS exploration was nice and rewarding. |
Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
173
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Posted - 2014.05.20 14:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
RcTamiya Leontis wrote:Some people may hate me now... but why not get a wastefactof build in depending on how well you do in the minigame and rework the minigame a little bit, instead of removing loot (i am happy loot scattering gets removed :) )
Well, the answer will be that there are no ressources for this now, but for spicing up the hacking minigame, I would like to advertise my earlier proposals here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4278637#post4278637 |
Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
173
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Posted - 2014.05.20 14:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sir Constantin wrote:Please add some rats or make it how it was a few years ago when even HS exploration was nice and rewarding.
Why would one want this? This is finally some PvE content that is NOT based on dumb shooting red crosses. If you still want to train Gunnery and/or kill rats, there is a ton of other sites out there. |
Nick Starkey
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
49
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Posted - 2014.05.20 14:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
Loot sprew was trivial to master with just a little practice and the environmental implant... Now you reduce drop rates by half and exploration income is nerfed greatly (because there was hardly a reason to miss a can before), and as a consequence T2 rigs are back to their ridiculous prices. Explorer ganking is also almost impossible now as it requires no real attention anymore.
meh |
Corey Edward
Under Heavy Fire Mordus Angels
5
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Posted - 2014.05.20 14:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
Halving the loot tables is going to have a huge effect. T2 rig prices will go back to being unaffordable for regular uses. And I'm sure you guys would love to see the prices rise on datacores, encryptors, etc.
Most explorers have become very proficient at doing these sites. With prescanning each can, I usually only lose a couple mill from each site. BPCs aren't even an issue because I can always get those 100% of the time if I want them. This could very well be a 45% nerf to player income. For the people that got used to loot spew, it really wasn't that bad...I'd rather have to deal with the spew than have the tables nerfed further. |
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CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
1568
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Posted - 2014.05.20 14:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
After talking with CCP Bayesian, we think you have all made some good points and we agree with you, the 'halving' of the loot tables may be a bit harsh. We will take a look at it again and boost them a bit and get back to you with specifics :) CCP Affinity | Follow me on Twitter Content Designer for EVE Online |
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Orla- King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
54
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Posted - 2014.05.20 15:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:After talking with CCP Bayesian, we think you have all made some good points and we agree with you, the 'halving' of the loot tables may be a bit harsh. We will take a look at it again and boost them a bit and get back to you with specifics :) Great to hear, thanks for the prompt response |
probag Bear
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
45
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Posted - 2014.05.20 15:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
I remember there being a promise that you'd replace the EY-1005 loot spew bonus once loot spew was removed? |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
815
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 15:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
maybe you should add in some unique items that you can sell too certain NPC corps... you could even make exploration missions with agents and certain NPC corps who ask for certain items to complete the mission .. you could get LP and isk reward and standings with that NPC corp... Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
97
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Posted - 2014.05.20 15:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:...I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites.
You did the right thing. Nothing of value was lost. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. Never forgotten, never forgiven. |
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CCP RedDawn
C C P C C P Alliance
418
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Posted - 2014.05.20 15:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
probag Bear wrote:I remember there being a promise that you'd replace the EY-1005 loot spew bonus once loot spew was removed?
We have removed the "5 second increase to decay time of all scattered containers." from this implant and are in the process of replacing this now with something else. Team Space Glitter |
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probag Bear
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
45
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Posted - 2014.05.20 15:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards.
Actually, this is the much bigger issue. When loot spew removal was first brought up, there was a large debate over the drops and their impact on the market, that ended in this post, stating that rewards would be increased, if anything. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2762
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 15:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm not sure cutting the loot in half will go far enough. Prices have crashed so far that many explorers have moved on. When they start coming back, even at half loot, we may still have an oversupply. I remember seeing CCP say they wanted exploration to be one of the highest paying careers in Eve. That means in high sec, it should pay better than L4 missions. We need prices to rise tremendously for that to happen.
Another option, increase the breadth of the loot tables. For example, every now and then a skill book shows up. But only a few of them show up. How about including ALL the skill books? That would allow more of them total to be in the loot without tanking the market for any given book. Just make sure the spawn rate is less than the total NPC sales for that book.
The same could be done for BPOs for T1 modules and ships. Include them all, make sure the spawn rate is less than the NPC sales rate (even if the popularity of exploration explodes). http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Bagehi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
270
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Posted - 2014.05.20 15:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
Good change. Good luck on balancing it so that it is a valuable profession though. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1417
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Posted - 2014.05.20 15:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
Faction ship multi run bpcs please :D GRRR Goons |
Matias Otero
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
114
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Posted - 2014.05.20 15:39:00 -
[30] - Quote
I actually appreciated the original intent of the loot spew, what with adding an element of time-sensitive interaction and encouraging group play, but I can't say I will miss them. It was a good idea on paper. In reality I want to hack the damn thing, get what's inside and gtfo before those probes lock in on me. |
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1171
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Posted - 2014.05.20 15:43:00 -
[31] - Quote
I'm an occasional explorer, I've ran C4 WH sites (relic/data) at the beggining of loot scattering, and it was painfully long due to the number of containers versus actual loot, with the time it implied.
I've finally decided to try my hand back at exploration for a few weeks now, I'd say around a month. Very occasionally, I run sites at about maybe five per week.
Like most explorers, with a cargo-scanner I know in advance what the loot is going to be, which allows for a quick comparison between loot obtained and total potential loot, after having ran a hacking.
As you can see, I'm no hardcore explorer, but despite that I'd say that I manage to gather around 75-80% of all the valuable loot there is to be had in a container.
It would be cool if the removal of the loot scattering mechanic -which is not really penalizing in terms of loot, its just an actually-not-fun mechanic- was done with the intent of keeping explorer's income stable. So I'd definitely recommend less than 50% nerf, more around 25% maximum.
Edit: 7o Matias :p Signature Tanking - Best Tanking. Beware the french guy!
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Sir Constantin
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2014.05.20 16:20:00 -
[32] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:Sir Constantin wrote:Please add some rats or make it how it was a few years ago when even HS exploration was nice and rewarding. Why would one want this? This is finally some PvE content that is NOT based on dumb shooting red crosses. If you still want to train Gunnery and/or kill rats, there is a ton of other sites out there.
Rats were there to make the sites harder, the hacking game tried to compensate that but.. skill for a week and you can hack 80% of nullsec cans. I find nice and entartaining to clear e exploration site before hacking/looting. Also, exploration path takes you to combat exploration wich is more rewarding and the gun skills are useful.
Before was bad for T2 stuff but I could tell a newbie to do some exploration to make nice isk. Now i can't because I know they would waste a lot of time scanning for almost nothing. |
Sarin Khorta
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2014.05.20 16:28:00 -
[33] - Quote
I don't yet know enough about exploring, nor market fluxuations, to venture a truly informed viewpoint. However, I am seeing what appears to be an interesting contradiction between the three primary types of responses I've seen in this thread:
1. "Yay! No more loot scattering! I'll come back to exploring now!"
2. "No! Don't cut the loot in half! I'll leave exploring!"
3. "No! Don't cut the loot in half! It'll drive market prices up!"
This seemingly translates to:
1. You have one group of people who will come back simply because they didn't like the *way* they had to do things. Thus, more explorers.
2. You have another group of people who seem to think that reduced loot immediately equals reduced profit. Thus, fewer explorers.
3. You have a third group of people who insist that reduced loot will immediately drive prices up in the market. Thus, intuitively, you'd think this would make exploration more lucrative again (because while there is less loot, that loot is now worth more), and thus, more explorers.
There is a cognitive dissonance between these viewpoints. I agree that "half" is probably drastic, but perhaps not as drastic as it might seem at first glance. Exploring may well end up being worth about the same overall, but is now worth more *per haul* than it was before, possibly increasing the ISK/hour that explorers receive, making exploration even more attractive. Of course, it may also make exploration hunters more prominent as well...
Food for thought. |
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
220
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Posted - 2014.05.20 16:39:00 -
[34] - Quote
What is the average value of a hisec data site these days? I remember when they used to give 10-20 mil per site for data sites. I doubt they will ever get back to that point, even if they went ahead with the 50% loot reduction. There is still the lack of rats in data/relic, and the lower barrier of entry and increased popularity of exploration in general since Odyssey. I doubt the mini game can balance all that out. Apparently people still bother to do hisec data/relic though because I see their signatures disappear all the time, I guess its still ok loot for really new players. If income from hisec data/relic comes out better than lvl 2-3 missions thats a decent option for new players I suppose. |
Axe Coldon
Coldon Enterprises Axion Bionics
40
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 16:49:00 -
[35] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Xander Phoena wrote:Very cool. Was never a fan of the loot scattering mechanic. Didn't really 'fit' with how we do most of our actions in space in Eve. not that the whole team up for maximum yield thing was a bad idea, it just didn't work for a bunch of reasons, this is one of them. good to see it go away, now let's talk about expanding the minigame :D Let's add "Insta finish that minigame Tokens" to the new store.
please no. Insta Finish is "Pay to win". Hack it like everyone else.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
363
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 17:03:00 -
[36] - Quote
Well first let me start off by saying thank you for finally removing loot bukkake. It is appreciated. And I do want to start the post off on a positive note....
However, I still don't understand why it took you a YEAR to figure it out. When we told you guys REPEATEDLY that it was a terrible terrible mechanic when it was first rolled out on the Test Forums. It's quite possibly the most frustrating thing about your company. You ask for our opinion and then you ignore it. I understand that there were umm "team changes" after that fabulous expansion, but still that is no reason that it should have languished for a year. In fact it should have been even more reason for the mechanic to be removed. It's just utterly mind-boggling.
And thanking you for finally removing it still feels like thanking you for having finally stopped kicking us in the nuts. Glad that you stopped, but still rather pissed you started in the first place. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1490
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 17:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
Please check the loot tables on the hardest cam to hack (also the one with the 'bubble' around it that doesn't allow you to get closer than 5k). This might be a drone regions thing but there is always this one can that is hard to hack and provides the worst loot out of the total. That seems reversed. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
Sophaya Fortelleren
Big Johnson's Red Coat Conspiracy
13
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Posted - 2014.05.20 17:12:00 -
[38] - Quote
I always liked the idea of the loot spill being a 'punishment' for not succeeding in the hack. So instead of getting some good stuff, you get (mostly) trash and it gets literally thrown in your face. |
Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
177
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Posted - 2014.05.20 17:15:00 -
[39] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:After talking with CCP Bayesian, we think you have all made some good points and we agree with you, the 'halving' of the loot tables may be a bit harsh. We will take a look at it again and boost them a bit and get back to you with specifics :)
Thanks a lot.
Isn't there a way to query from the database how many items were spawned in those sites vs. how many were actually looted?
I would expect that the figures for valuable stuff (certain T2 Salvage, decryptors, Faction POS BPCs) are much closer to 100% than for less valuable stuff.
When I ran these sites I would do the cargo scan, then set myself a primary, secondary etc. objective and pick the can type of the most valuable item first so that the success rate for more expensive stuff would be much higher. |
Moth Eisig
Soliloquy Against Death
35
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Posted - 2014.05.20 17:25:00 -
[40] - Quote
Sophaya Fortelleren wrote:I always liked the idea of the loot spill being a 'punishment' for not succeeding in the hack. So instead of getting some good stuff, you get (mostly) trash and it gets literally thrown in your face.
The loot distribution would have to be completely random or the failure loot spew would have to contain only a small amount of the full loot for this to be even remotely viable. Otherwise a character with nothing but a rookie ship and basic scanning/hacking skills could head out to null and make hundreds of millions by just failing on purpose and grabbing the valuable loot anyhow. |
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probag Bear
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
45
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Posted - 2014.05.20 17:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
Sorry for being trigger-happy with the misquoting and the hyperbole, CCP Affinity.
Sarin Khorta wrote:3. You have a third group of people who insist that reduced loot will immediately drive prices up in the market. Thus, intuitively, you'd think this would make exploration more lucrative again (because while there is less loot, that loot is now worth more), and thus, more explorers.
Price elasticity of supply for exploration is a good amount on the inelastic side. As in, even if prices go up, the number of explorers won't go up nearly enough to keep loot prices at a "decent" level.
While on the other hand, the price elasticity of demand for T2 rigs is pretty damn elastic. If T2 rigs prices double, a good chunk of the customer base will just stop buying them.
Which is why you have these people, who built up their fortune around the Odyssey T2 rig popularity bloom, come in whenever this topic is brought up and exaggerate the effects of reduced loot. |
Phaezen Outamon
RePeX. Absolute Darkness
0
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Posted - 2014.05.20 17:49:00 -
[42] - Quote
I have run a couple of test hacks on Sisi this evening. The open container button on the radial menu of the hackable containers stays grey even after you have successfully hacked it, requiring you to use the right click menu to access the loot. Is this something you will be fixing? |
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CCP Bayesian
1063
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Posted - 2014.05.20 17:56:00 -
[43] - Quote
Phaezen Outamon wrote:I have run a couple of test hacks on Sisi this evening. The open container button on the radial menu of the hackable containers stays grey even after you have successfully hacked it, requiring you to use the right click menu to access the loot. Is this something you will be fixing?
Yes. Thanks for the feedback! EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter |
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Phaezen Outamon
RePeX. Absolute Darkness
0
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Posted - 2014.05.20 18:08:00 -
[44] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Phaezen Outamon wrote:I have run a couple of test hacks on Sisi this evening. The open container button on the radial menu of the hackable containers stays grey even after you have successfully hacked it, requiring you to use the right click menu to access the loot. Is this something you will be fixing? Yes. Thanks for the feedback!
I have also noticed the sites disappear from the probe screen when you finish the first container, not the last one as they previously have. |
Canenald
Rubella Solaris Test Alliance Please Ignore
6
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Posted - 2014.05.20 18:22:00 -
[45] - Quote
As an experienced explorer, I'd say cutting the loot by 20% would equal what was lost by failing to grab the right containers if you knew what you were doing.
Also, no need to balance the market by nerfing exploration because it's not the source of market crash. Look at R&D agents and limited usability of T2 rigs if you are looking for a true cause. |
Darkblad
Hilfe is like Free Entertainment
235
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 18:24:00 -
[46] - Quote
With Mini Containers gone, I excepted to the EY-1005 hardwiring to get a different bonus. But Cycle Time reduction for Salvage, Hacking and Archaelogy modules is not the one that'll make it into Kronos, I hope? Sounds pre-Odyssey to me EVE Infolinks -+-áOld and new-áPortraits |
Moth Eisig
Soliloquy Against Death
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 18:25:00 -
[47] - Quote
Sarin Khorta wrote:I don't yet know enough about exploring, nor market fluxuations, to venture a truly informed viewpoint. However, I am seeing what appears to be an interesting contradiction between the three primary types of responses I've seen in this thread:
1. You have one group of people who will come back simply because they didn't like the *way* they had to do things. Thus, more explorers.
2. You have another group of people who seem to think that reduced loot immediately equals reduced profit. Thus, fewer explorers.
3. You have a third group of people who insist that reduced loot will immediately drive prices up in the market. Thus, intuitively, you'd think this would make exploration more lucrative again (because while there is less loot, that loot is now worth more), and thus, more explorers.
There is a cognitive dissonance between these viewpoints. I agree that "half" is probably drastic, but perhaps not as drastic as it might seem at first glance. Exploring may well end up being worth about the same overall, but is now worth more *per haul* than it was before, possibly increasing the ISK/hour that explorers receive, making exploration even more attractive. Of course, it may also make exploration hunters more prominent as well...
Food for thought.
I think what you're missing is that the second group of people are mostly thinking of it in terms of loot spew = 90% of the current site loot potential, halved loot tables = 50% of current site loot potential, which is what I thought the first time I heard about it.
But keeping loot tables the same or even close to the same will probably cause a big market crash like after Odyssey because so many more people will be doing exploration. The only way to keep profitability about the same is to decrease loot in inverse proportion to the inflow of people running exploration sites (and also the higher speed in which sites can be done). I don't know what kind of data CCP has available, but I'm guessing that's going to be pretty much impossible to accurately predict at the outset, so I'm guessing there will be a bit of a swing in one direction or the other before corrections set in.
I would also guess that the eventual equilibrium will leave exploration somewhat less profitable than it is now since likability barrier has been lowered so the profitability vs fun/time equation has changed. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
2399
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 18:28:00 -
[48] - Quote
Davion Falcon wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:...I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. You did the right thing. Nothing of value was lost.
This, a thousand times this This is not a signature. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
2399
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 18:33:00 -
[49] - Quote
Whilst I do appreciate that isk per hour is a great motivator, I would much prefer that exploration be an enjoyable, interesting, challenging game experience first with the isk per hour following that. This is not a signature. |
Daenna Chrysi
Omega Foundry Unit The Ditanian Alliance
102
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 18:36:00 -
[50] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.
We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated.
dont revert the doubled rewards, but make the sites immune to cargo scanner, so players cant pick the cream of the crop but have to work for it by hacking all containers to see what is in them. |
|
Samantha Calderon
Griffin Capsuleers Ad-Astra
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 18:39:00 -
[51] - Quote
Matias Otero wrote:I actually appreciated the original intent of the loot spew, what with adding an element of time-sensitive interaction and encouraging group play, but I can't say I will miss them. It was a good idea on paper. In reality I want to hack the damn thing, get what's inside and gtfo before those probes lock in on me.
I agree, looked like a good idea for group exploration, but i have to admit that the concept is very rare in Eve right now. |
Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
199
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 18:42:00 -
[52] - Quote
Still can't do scanning. That mini game thing is just too annoying.
Pass. |
Guth'Alak
EVE University Ivy League
10
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 18:56:00 -
[53] - Quote
So what would be the incentive for using a cargo scanner after the changes? |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
527
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 18:58:00 -
[54] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:After talking with CCP Bayesian, we think you have all made some good points and we agree with you, the 'halving' of the loot tables may be a bit harsh. We will take a look at it again and boost them a bit and get back to you with specifics :)
Seriously? You really though to implement a Loot table with 50% reduced loot? *implied facepalm* You can't seriously have thought about halving the loot, that's ludicrous.
Moreover, have you revisited the Loot table in a way to have less Augmentations and more Symmetries spawn in 00 sec? Augmentations are among the most useless items in the game (possibly only topped by Capital Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II Blueprint... Why do these even drop, if there is absolutely no use for them or similar rigs?
And another thing, which we came up in my alliance today and which, I think at least, also already has been suggested in F&ID: Why do we loot the can after the hacking? Why don't we have stashes scattered over the grid that we need to find to receive loot (possibly in combination with the final core/end point of the grid to gain the loot). Why is it still the same old mechanic of hacking and then grabbing the stuff instead of, facilitated by the hacking game, finding actual loot positions in the grid and then finalize the hack. Why not this or some other interesting or at least different mechanics?
|
Sophaya Fortelleren
Big Johnson's Red Coat Conspiracy
15
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 18:59:00 -
[55] - Quote
Moth Eisig wrote:Sophaya Fortelleren wrote:I always liked the idea of the loot spill being a 'punishment' for not succeeding in the hack. So instead of getting some good stuff, you get (mostly) trash and it gets literally thrown in your face. The loot distribution would have to be completely random or the failure loot spew would have to contain only a small amount of the full loot for this to be even remotely viable. Otherwise a character with nothing but a rookie ship and basic scanning/hacking skills could head out to null and make hundreds of millions by just failing on purpose and grabbing the valuable loot anyhow.
Yeah good point, and if it was all just worthless loot then nobody would bother picking it up so it wouldn't be very effective at annoying the player. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
527
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:00:00 -
[56] - Quote
Guth'Alak wrote:So what would be the incentive for using a cargo scanner after the changes?
Grieving. You only grab the can(s) with the best loot and leave the site unfinished to block the respawn for the residents, just as before. |
Guth'Alak
EVE University Ivy League
10
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:09:00 -
[57] - Quote
Sophaya Fortelleren wrote:I always liked the idea of the loot spill being a 'punishment' for not succeeding in the hack. So instead of getting some good stuff, you get (mostly) trash and it gets literally thrown in your face.
I love this idea and encourage it completely. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
527
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:10:00 -
[58] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Phaezen Outamon wrote:I have run a couple of test hacks on Sisi this evening. The open container button on the radial menu of the hackable containers stays grey even after you have successfully hacked it, requiring you to use the right click menu to access the loot. Is this something you will be fixing? Yes. Thanks for the feedback!
So is the opening of these cans different from opening the cans in Ghost Sites? In Ghost Sites you can use the Selected Items window to open the can, is this not the case with the normal exploration sites? |
Jinn Aideron
33
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:23:00 -
[59] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. Saddened to see in-place content being cut from the game.
It provides for great exhilaration, however, that exploration rewards are shifted from the competent players, who looted above-average, toward the inept players, who failed.
I'm elated.
Because of stealth deletes, I desist help testing, engage in features & ideas, forums as a whole for the most part. |
Owen Levanth
Federated Deep Space Explorations
149
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:27:00 -
[60] - Quote
Jinn Aideron wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. Saddened to see in-place content being cut from the game. It provides for great exhilaration, however, that exploration rewards are shifted from the competent players, who looted above-average, toward the inept players, who failed. I'm elated.
Oh yeah, the competence of looking up online which stuff appears in which container and then just getting lucky.
And **** everyone trying to run COSMOS-sites, they probably deserve random loot vomited into their faces.
Honestly, step back and look at what you just wrote. You really think clicking on random containers careening through space is a sign of competency? Please go outside and enjoy the sun immediately and only play Eve Online again after at least 1-2 hours have passed. |
|
Jinn Aideron
33
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:34:00 -
[61] - Quote
Here, have some ice-cream, you've been out in the sun too long.
Because of stealth deletes, I desist help testing, engage in features & ideas, forums as a whole for the most part. |
Guth'Alak
EVE University Ivy League
10
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:53:00 -
[62] - Quote
Moth Eisig wrote:Sophaya Fortelleren wrote:I always liked the idea of the loot spill being a 'punishment' for not succeeding in the hack. So instead of getting some good stuff, you get (mostly) trash and it gets literally thrown in your face. The loot distribution would have to be completely random or the failure loot spew would have to contain only a small amount of the full loot for this to be even remotely viable. Otherwise a character with nothing but a rookie ship and basic scanning/hacking skills could head out to null and make hundreds of millions by just failing on purpose and grabbing the valuable loot anyhow.
Heres how i could see this working: each can requires 2 attempts. if you fail once, you get loot spew with only 50% of the loot. if you fail both, the can blows up and you get nothing. if you win both, you get 100% of the loot conveniently from the container.
|
Seamus Donohue
EVE University Ivy League
54
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:59:00 -
[63] - Quote
CCP, for the history during which loot spew was in effect, what was the proportion of loot that was collected and what was the proportion that was lost to decay? How do these proportions vary by the specific item type? Survivor of Teskanen. -áFan of John Rourke.
I have video tutorials for EVE Online on my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/SeamusDonohueEVE |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
26384
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 21:50:00 -
[64] - Quote
Daenna Chrysi wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.
We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated. dont revert the doubled rewards, but make the sites immune to cargo scanner, so players cant pick the cream of the crop but have to work for it by hacking all containers to see what is in them. I agree 100%.
The problem with an influx of loot crashing Market Prices isn't due to a large amount of players doing exploration, it's due to a large amount of explorers cherry picking and blitzing exploration sites.
Instead of reducing the loot table, just remove the ability to cargo-scan the hacking containers thus requiring players to complete the entire site, not just a couple of select containers.
Expedition, DED and non-rated Combat sites should have the NPC Commanders and Overseers spawn after all other NPC defenders within the site have been destroyed.
Also acceleration gates requiring a special key for access need to have a second key type available for access. For example the Angel DED 1/10 and 2/10 sites do not have an alternate key type to access the gates like the Watch and Vigil sites have.. Speaking of the Angel DED 1/10 site, it seriously needs to have some Faction loot added to it's loot table.
Speaking of loot tables, when are Rogue Drones going to get the loot table that was promised back when you guys thought it was wise to remove Alloys and Compounds?
Anyway, I'm glad the loot spew is being removed, I never liked that mechanic. However, I still won't be doing the hacking sites due to the click fest mini hacking game.
DMC Faction Standing Repair Plan | California Eve Players | (Proposal) Bring Back 'The Endless Battle' Missions |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
51
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 22:01:00 -
[65] - Quote
Guth'Alak wrote:Heres how i could see this working: each can requires 2 attempts. if you fail once, you get loot spew with only 50% of the loot. if you fail both, the can blows up and you get nothing. if you win both, you get 100% of the loot conveniently from the container.
So 7 cans on grid an we have to hack them 14 times to get 100% loot. It's exploration, not hacking in space. No.
DeMichael Crimson wrote:The problem with an influx of loot crashing Market Prices isn't due to a large amount of players doing exploration, it's due to a large amount of explorers cherry picking and blitzing exploration sites.
Instead of reducing the loot table, just remove the ability to cargo-scan the hacking containers thus requiring players to complete the entire site, not just a couple of select containers.
100% agree. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á |
DaOpa
Static Corp
35
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 22:19:00 -
[66] - Quote
Greetings,
I just tested Multiple COSMOS STATIC Complexes in ZIMSE, APHI and GARISAS
All seem to be working correctly with loot spew gone.
DaOpa's EVE Fansite ||Wormhole Database / Wormhole Systems Lookup Tool ||Live Streamer at twitch.tv/daopa |
ShadowBlood Sentinel
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 22:52:00 -
[67] - Quote
While I understand how CCP arrived at this 50% figure, being that loot was buffed when loot spew was added; i believe that this is now outdated consider how much the economy as evolved around this profession.
I do agree that with removing loot spew, some loot table nerf is necessary. However, I don't think 50% is realistic. A 10-20% nerf would be more acceptable in my view.
Most of the isk made in this profession of Relic and Data sites comes from low and null sec. Making it a high risk profession, with moderate time investment (probing, hacking, travel) on some level comparable with DED sites. Although on average, more time is spent in DED sites compared to exploration site, while more time is spent traveling in between exploration sites than in DED sites (on average).
If CCP feels that the profit vs. effort ratio isn't correct. I believe that there are alternatives than nerfing the loot table by 50%. Nerfing the loot table by 15%, or adding new skills to the profession to increase the investment curve of the profession (Archaeology and Archaelogy Expertise for example). I heard others propose making the cans in Relic and Data sites unscannable by cargo scanners, forcing pilots to complete the whole site to make sure they got all exception and unique loot, thus increasing the time invested to reward ratio (this may be not as practical). The point being there are other options available.
I'm sure there are many in the exploration community that agree with me.
P.S.
While CCP is working on these sites can they please reduce the m3 size of datacores from 1m3 each to .1m3 each? I not aware of any reason why they need to be this size. I find it slightly ridiculous that in some sites I would have to have a secondary character in a hauler just to carry around the total loot of just one site (this is just the profitable loot, not counting the rest).
"I make my home in the stars, the shadows my adventure." |
Conjaq
Imploding Turtles Rising in Outerspace Gravity Fatal Ascension
9
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 23:15:00 -
[68] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Daenna Chrysi wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.
We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated. dont revert the doubled rewards, but make the sites immune to cargo scanner, so players cant pick the cream of the crop but have to work for it by hacking all containers to see what is in them. I agree 100%. The problem with an influx of loot crashing Market Prices isn't due to a large amount of players doing exploration, it's due to a large amount of explorers cherry picking and blitzing exploration sites. Instead of reducing the loot table, just remove the ability to cargo-scan the hacking containers thus requiring players to complete the entire site, not just a couple of select containers. Expedition, DED and non-rated Combat sites should have the NPC Commanders and Overseers spawn after all other NPC defenders within the site have been destroyed. Also acceleration gates requiring a special key for access need to have a second key type available for access. For example the Angel DED 1/10 and 2/10 sites do not have an alternate key type to access the gates like the Watch and Vigil sites have.. Speaking of the Angel DED 1/10 site, it seriously needs to have some Faction loot added to it's loot table. Speaking of loot tables, when are Rogue Drones going to get the loot table that was promised back when you guys thought it was wise to remove Alloys and Compounds? Anyway, I'm glad the loot spew is being removed, I never liked that mechanic. However, I still won't be doing the hacking sites due to the click fest mini hacking game. DMC
This.. So much this, can't say I agree with the need to kill all npcs before a commander spawns, but having a look on exploration whole not be a bad thing.
Simple stuff as making a guarantee on unrated ded sites to escalate fully, or have a guaranteed dead space module drop(or even just the tokdn) .. Would go a long long way to make exploration way better.... On that note, why was the 9\10 plexes changed to not always escalate?
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2754
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 23:34:00 -
[69] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:After talking with CCP Bayesian, we think you have all made some good points and we agree with you, the 'halving' of the loot tables may be a bit harsh. We will take a look at it again and boost them a bit and get back to you with specifics :)
Perhaps for once you might try being reactive, rather than proactive. CCP seems to have an affinity (pun not intended) for trying to game the system before you even have the result of one change in hand.
The last time you fooled around with this we were repeatedly told 'Oh, don't worry explorers! We'll adjust things so that your income doesn't suffer.' Except that it did, because sites were spewing invention and T2 salvage loot into the hands of fresh explorers like no one's business; the cargo scanner cherry picking is the only thing that kept a dedicated explorer making decent isk. (I freely admit to abusing the cargo scanner mechanic. It's there, so I use it. I would not be sad to see it gone, and would prefer if it was. DMC has already pointed out that the desire to cheat the loot lottery crashed the market.) Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
47
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 01:41:00 -
[70] - Quote
excuse me for an odd question,
which update (Kronos / Crius) will this change be focus to arrived at? as it is not stated at the topic. |
|
Nicola Arman
Mining and Explorations Nuevo Imperio Galactico
37
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 02:33:00 -
[71] - Quote
It's very sad to see development time wasted with the removal of the spew...
Successful attempt = No spew, all loot earned First Failure = Spew loot 2nd Failure = Explosions! |
MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
47
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 04:29:00 -
[72] - Quote
Nicola Arman wrote:It's very sad to see development time wasted with the removal of the spew...
Successful attempt = No spew, all loot earned First Failure = Spew loot 2nd Failure = Explosions!
+1 this idea
reward for prefect hack |
George Gouillot
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
16
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 05:56:00 -
[73] - Quote
Nicola Arman wrote:It's very sad to see development time wasted with the removal of the spew...
Successful attempt = No spew, all loot earned First Failure = Spew loot 2nd Failure = Explosions!
That is a brilliant idea! +1 |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
529
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 07:16:00 -
[74] - Quote
ShadowBlood Sentinel wrote:While I understand how CCP arrived at this 50% figure, being that loot was buffed when loot spew was added; i believe that this is now outdated considing how much the economy as evolved around this profession.
I do agree that with removing loot spew, some loot table nerf is necessary. However, I don't think 50% is realistic. A 10-20% nerf would be more acceptable in my view.
Most of the isk made in this profession of Relic and Data sites comes from low and null sec. Making it a high risk profession, with moderate time investment (probing, hacking, travel) on some level comparable with DED sites. Although on average, more time is spent in DED sites compared to exploration sites, while more time is spent traveling in between exploration sites than in DED sites (on average).
If CCP feels that the profit vs. effort ratio isn't correct, I believe that there are alternatives than nerfing the loot table by 50%. Nerfing the loot table by 15%, or adding new skills to the profession to increase the investment curve of the profession (Archaeology and Archaelogy Expertise for example). I heard others propose making the cans in Relic and Data sites unscannable by cargo scanners, forcing pilots to complete the whole site to make sure they got all exceptional and unique loot, thus increasing the time invested to reward ratio (this may be not as practical). The point being there are other options available.
I'm sure there are many in the exploration community that agree with me.
P.S.
While CCP is working on these sites can they please reduce the m3 size of datacores from 1m3 each to .1m3 each? I not aware of any reason why they need to be this size. I find it slightly ridiculous that in some sites I would have to have a secondary character in a hauler just to carry around the total loot of just one site (this is just the profitable loot, not counting the rest).
"I make my home in the stars, the shadows my adventure."
In addition to this, reducing the loot drop amount in light of the recent changes to freighters would be extremely harmful to freighter pilots. Even with the current prices it already costs a fortune to rig freighters; reducing the loot availability and thus increasing prices even further is outrageous. Not to mention Invention: the current standard is the usage of Symmetries and Parities. Decreasing their and decryptor/datacore (yes, I fill my needs only via exploration) drop rate significantly in combination with the horrendous coming changes in Crius, would have highly negative effects on this part of the game as well.
|
|
CCP Bayesian
1084
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 08:35:00 -
[75] - Quote
As said earlier the loot in the cans is a WIP, expect it to change again very soon and thanks for the valuable feedback.
People that have raised technical issues, thanks, those are also in the process of being investigated and fixed. EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter |
|
Ra'Shyne Viper
Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels
88
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 08:55:00 -
[76] - Quote
Nicola Arman wrote:It's very sad to see development time wasted with the removal of the spew...
Successful attempt = No spew, all loot earned First Failure = Spew loot 2nd Failure = Explosions!
Bingo
DUST 514 player
Ingame name: Vin Vicious |
Kateryna I
Lords Of The Universe Exiled Ones
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 09:37:00 -
[77] - Quote
Nicola Arman wrote:It's very sad to see development time wasted with the removal of the spew...
Successful attempt = No spew, all loot earned First Failure = Spew loot 2nd Failure = Explosions!
this indeed sounds like a remarkable idea, no need to change the loot spew implant in this case, and extra reward for being good and incentive to skill up And the value of stuff wouldn't dip as much either, all around win.
And it goes in line with the ghost sites as well, first attempt, access the can, no second attempt in this case Polish PVP corp looking for members to have some fun together. Join me! Check our KB |
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CCP Bayesian
1084
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 10:27:00 -
[78] - Quote
The problem with that idea is that it means there is an incentive for people who aren't interested in hacking or exploration as such to come in and fail in order to get the loot out. It's mitigatable but ultimately we'd be leaving a mechanic in that doesn't quite fit into EVE's interaction scheme.
I'm personally much more of a fan of making the reward you get out proportional to how well you complete the hack. The idea floated by someone earlier of having to find 'loot nodes' is along the same lines of future ideas for hacking (here and elsewhere) I have. EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter |
|
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
324
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 10:31:00 -
[79] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The problem with that idea is that it means there is an incentive for people who aren't interested in hacking or exploration as such to come in and fail in order to get the loot out. It's mitigatable but ultimately we'd be leaving a mechanic in that doesn't quite fit into EVE's interaction scheme.
I'm personally much more of a fan of making the reward you get out proportional to how well you complete the hack. The idea floated by someone earlier of having to find 'loot nodes' is along the same lines of future ideas for hacking (here and elsewhere) I have.
If so, could you please make the differences between T1 and T2 hacking/archaeology less dramatic, or otherwise introduce a middling step? The echelon is a pretty interesting hacking platform, the problem being I see no tactical use for it... because all it can do is hack. And die, I suppose. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
458
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 10:54:00 -
[80] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The problem with that idea is that it means there is an incentive for people who aren't interested in hacking or exploration as such to come in and fail in order to get the loot out. I think what he was suggesting is:
If you FAIL the hack twice the can explodes.
If you SUCCEED in the hack on your second attempt you get the loot spew.
If you SUCCEED in the hack on your first attempt you get all the loot, without spew.
So there would be no loot received for failure and therefore no incentive to fail (other than the possibility of griefing another explorer).
CCP Bayesian wrote:I'm personally much more of a fan of making the reward you get out proportional to how well you complete the hack. The idea floated by someone earlier of having to find 'loot nodes' is along the same lines of future ideas for hacking (here and elsewhere) I have. I think "loot nodes" or something of that ilk is a fine idea. I don't think the two ideas are exclusive however, as you can have loot nodes to determine the quantity of loot and the 1st/2nd chance mechanic determine the manner in which that loot is delivered. |
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Loki Feiht
Feiht Family Clan
188
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 11:11:00 -
[81] - Quote
Loot spew graphically is really nice but the mechanic wasn't very good, I would think if they added the loot spew graphic to containers coming out of wrecks it would be a nice look as long as they didn't expire within 30 seconds lol (for anything that doesnt stay inside the wreck that is) More NPC - Randomly Generated Modular Content-áthread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=220858 |
Anita1
Meinungsfreiheit
14
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 11:32:00 -
[82] - Quote
good thing you are removing it, now remove the useless klicking game too and everything is perfect
the hacking game like it is, is just useless wasted time, you guys need to thing about a reason to do that, like if you are good you get more loot, if you fail you only get half of it, something which makes it worth to klick around |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1172
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 11:32:00 -
[83] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote: I'm personally much more of a fan of making the reward you get out proportional to how well you complete the hack. The idea floated by someone earlier of having to find 'loot nodes' is along the same lines of future ideas for hacking (here and elsewhere) I have.
That would be awesome!
I'm entierly in favor of multiple loot nodes spread out on the "board" instead of one boss that you have to find. It would help ease the random (and unfair because you have zero way to avoid that with player skills/knowledge) side of having to find THE boss to get all the loot.
It happened to all of us I think to clear all the board but two or three nodes protected by firewalls... with the boss hiding behind one of these.
I'd suggest you remove the boss entierly and instead spread out multiple loot nodes on the hacking minigame. It would actually reward higher skills beucause you'd have an incentive to push the hacking at the limits of your virus to find as many loot nodes as possible. Way more interesting in my opinion. Of course you'd have a button available to disengage the hack as soon as you open at least one loot node. (or two or three... it could even be dependant on the T1/T2 module and/or an implant)
When you dissengage, you get a reward proportional to how many loot nodes you opened. Could I even dare to suggest that two unused bonuses could equal a bonus loot node?
On an not entierly related topic -but since we're talking about the hacking minigame lets push it forward to improve it :D- why not letting the player get a brief hint of the distance of the closest loot node every time he clears a node? (empty node or kill of an ennemy node). So, say, if I click a node, I'd get a floating "2" for only a second that would indicate that the closest loot node is two "jumps" away. It would help add a slight element of player skill (here: deduction and memory) instead of just randomly clicking the damn thing... Signature Tanking - Best Tanking. Beware the french guy!
|
Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
191
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 11:57:00 -
[84] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: During the lowsec roundtable at Fanfest, we were discussing the merits of lowsec, and someone said "a great thing about lowsec is that it's one of the best-connected areas of space".
CCP Bayesian wrote: I'm personally much more of a fan of making the reward you get out proportional to how well you complete the hack. The idea floated by someone earlier of having to find 'loot nodes' is along the same lines of future ideas for hacking (here and elsewhere) I have.
Somehow it seems like I am not very noticeable. Even the monocle didn't help. :-/ Maybe I should consider a career as a spy? Whatever.
Just had another idea regarding loot nodes: It would be possible to preserve the interesting part of the current gameplay that favors smart players (cargo scanning before, cherry picking/decisions in limited time based on loot and can types).
When the hacking board appears, all nodes could belong to visibly different categories. Simple example analogue to current loot spew: There are data nodes (blue), material nodes (green), parts nodes (brown), Equipment nodes...
You can scan the cans before to know what is inside. The board gives you a rough idea what might be hidden where (through colours/symbols of the nodes), but no exact position (you are looking for a specific blueprint, but there are 10 data nodes on the board, the right loot node might be any of them.
Then it would also be possible to have different danger levels/hacking difficulties associated with the different node classes or even specific loot items! Example: data nodes always have a higher chance to contain a Firewall. Or: if there is a Faction POS module BPC under a data node, there will also always be 1-2 extra defensive nodes hidden under data nodes.
That would require players to make somewhat more complex decisions... When you are on low health, will you risk unveiling more of the dangerous nodes to get the jackpot or avoid those and search for the exit first?
|
Guth'Alak
EVE University Ivy League
13
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 12:19:00 -
[85] - Quote
another possibility would be to have the loot spew depending on your coherence %. if you finished the hack above 50% health, then you get direct access. if you finished under that then you get loot spew. |
Owen Levanth
Federated Deep Space Explorations
153
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 12:32:00 -
[86] - Quote
Guth'Alak wrote:another possibility would be to have the loot spew depending on your coherence %. if you finished the hack above 50% health, then you get direct access. if you finished under that then you get loot spew.
I like this, it would give people more reason to use rigs and implants giving a bonus to coherence. Also it would make it possible for CCP to add rigs and implants giving a bonus to virus strength instead, since it wouldn't immediately obsolete coherence-bonuses anymore: You would have to decide what's more important: Faster hacking or more loot. |
Orla- King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
56
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 12:40:00 -
[87] - Quote
Nicola Arman wrote:It's very sad to see development time wasted with the removal of the spew...
Successful attempt = No spew, all loot earned First Failure = Spew loot 2nd Failure = Explosions! Ha! That's fantastic! Absolutely this+1 good sir. |
Guth'Alak
EVE University Ivy League
13
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 12:56:00 -
[88] - Quote
i think its evident that many people actually want the loot spew to stay in the game but only as the result of a failure in some way. it only makes sense that success should result in the much preferred direct access, as with the current ghost sites. |
|
CCP Bayesian
1087
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 14:01:00 -
[89] - Quote
Could we move discussion of improvements to the Hacking mechanics elsewhere. This thread needs to stay on topic so we can collect feedback about the changes we're making right now. EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter |
|
BigWolfUK
Ewoks of Fire
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 14:04:00 -
[90] - Quote
ShadowBlood Sentinel wrote: P.S.
While CCP is working on these sites can they please reduce the m3 size of datacores from 1m3 each to .1m3 each? I not aware of any reason why they need to be this size. I find it slightly ridiculous that in some sites I would have to have a secondary character in a hauler just to carry around the total loot of just one site (this is just the profitable loot, not counting the rest).
Dropping datacore m3 would be nice :) |
|
Mercer Nen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 15:25:00 -
[91] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The problem with that idea is that it means there is an incentive for people who aren't interested in hacking or exploration as such to come in and fail in order to get the loot out. It's mitigatable but ultimately we'd be leaving a mechanic in that doesn't quite fit into EVE's interaction scheme.
I'm personally much more of a fan of making the reward you get out proportional to how well you complete the hack. The idea floated by someone earlier of having to find 'loot nodes' is along the same lines of future ideas for hacking (here and elsewhere) I have.
It's an interesting point about the interaction scheme. I've always felt that a missing element of EVE was interactions with the environment (with consequence). This is especially missing in PVE.
Although I found the loot spew to be frustrating, it was more to do with being forced to do a lot of double clicking as a reward for a successful hack. While I don't think the way it was implemented worked, it did seem like a further iteration of it could be quite interesting. Particularly if it placed more of an emphasis on skilfully manually piloting your ship. I had originally (and optimistically) assumed that the idea of using your ship to directly interact with the environment was part of the concept behind the loot spew.
The idea of there being multiple elements and interactions within exploration sites makes them immediately more interesting than the bulk of PVE currently available in EVE. Reducing the hacking sites to: hack -> reward, is in some ways an improvement, but also still seems a bit too simple. All that aside, I still look forward to seeing the hacking mini-game further iterated on.
[apologies if this is off topic] |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1172
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 15:51:00 -
[92] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Could we move discussion of improvements to the Hacking mechanics elsewhere. This thread needs to stay on topic so we can collect feedback about the changes we're making right now.
Sorry, my bad :D Signature Tanking - Best Tanking. Beware the french guy!
|
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1540
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 16:27:00 -
[93] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.
We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated.
Are there any plans to redesign how the hacking mini game works?
Currently it is just a click fest with no real skill or thought required. I can think of one simple change that would make it more engaging...
CCP Bayesian wrote:Could we move discussion of improvements to the Hacking mechanics elsewhere. This thread needs to stay on topic so we can collect feedback about the changes we're making right now.
Sorry didn't see this...
Could you be so kind as to create a feedback thread for us to move the discussion to? After all, no one wants to give feedback if it's just going to be ignored. +1 |
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
81
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 19:03:00 -
[94] - Quote
Thank you sweet Jesus |
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
17
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 23:10:00 -
[95] - Quote
Now that loot spew has been removed it's far to easy to drop the valuable from the container ,people will just loot the expensives and let the crap behind them . "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get" seems a good philosophy for this activity .Please make Relic and Data container immune to cargo scan . It'll encourage explorer to clean the whole things before getting to next one . |
|
CCP Bayesian
1096
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 09:28:00 -
[96] - Quote
I've done some tidying up of the site completion mechanics that mean the exploration site gets pulled down and recreated elsewhere which should hopefully help with that problem. It should be live on Sisi after the next update.
We added some junk loot in as well, partly because it was in the scattered containers and partly because there are otherwise occasionally empty containers. We're concerned that it might just be annoying for people to have to jettison it all the time (using Loot All) or cherry pick out the good stuff from the inventory window. Any thoughts, preferably after trying it out on Sisi? EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter |
|
Jarnis McPieksu
499
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 09:40:00 -
[97] - Quote
How does this work? Site stays up only X time after one of the cans has been touched, so it will respawn even if someone just cherry-picked the good stuff?
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2359
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 09:53:00 -
[98] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote: We added some junk loot in as well, partly because it was in the scattered containers and partly because there are otherwise occasionally empty containers. We're concerned that it might just be annoying for people to have to jettison it all the time (using Loot All) or cherry pick out the good stuff from the inventory window. Any thoughts, preferably after trying it out on Sisi?
I'm going to break the rules as I am still at work. In regards to junk loot and cherry picking; there will always be those who cherry pick the cans and regard anything but the best (overall or on a can by can basis) to be junk. Adding in junk will not affect these players. The loot all crowd will usually end up jetting every now and then when getting non-desirable loot (pirate materials comes to mind here) adding junk loot will just be another thing to jettison. -á --á |
|
CCP Bayesian
1096
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 10:11:00 -
[99] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:How does this work? Site stays up only X time after one of the cans has been touched, so it will respawn even if someone just cherry-picked the good stuff?
Basically yes but with a few caveats to deal with edge cases (e.g. someone is still in the site). Things were already working this way previously but when I went through the code there were some cases that hadn't been covered so now it should be a bit more efficient. The knock on effect is that there will be more fresh sites to be found now (and thus more loot) without making it harder to catch and kill Explorers. EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter |
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Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2946
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 11:08:00 -
[100] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:I've done some tidying up of the site completion mechanics that mean the exploration site gets pulled down and recreated elsewhere which should hopefully help with that problem. It should be live on Sisi after the next update.
We added some junk loot in as well, partly because it was in the scattered containers and partly because there are otherwise occasionally empty containers. We're concerned that it might just be annoying for people to have to jettison it all the time (using Loot All) or cherry pick out the good stuff from the inventory window. Any thoughts, preferably after trying it out on Sisi?
Not tested it, but I always use a filter (value >100k) before hitting loot all. Then I check again for anything the client doesn't understand the value of.
So the junk loot would be totally ignored by me. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=346564 - a proposal to overhaul the Logistics skill https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
|
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
366
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 18:17:00 -
[101] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:We're concerned that it might just be annoying for people to have to jettison it all the time (using Loot All) or cherry pick out the good stuff from the inventory window. Any thoughts, preferably after trying it out on Sisi? How about make the "junk loot" NOT junk. No, I don't mean by making it "aw3sum f4ct10N lewt". I mean by using that "junk" to manufacture things for Explorers. Such as the Data Sheets / Hydrogen Batteries / etc being used to manufacture Utilities. Which could then be slotted BEFORE Hacking etc etc. You know, all the stuff you were talking about last year. That way, the junk isn't really "junk".
CCP Bayesian wrote:...without making it harder to catch and kill Explorers. Because that was hard to begin with? You bookmark the site and/or leave your Bomber alt cloaked there. Go do what you normally do in system. If somebody is stupid enough to run sites with others in local, then Profit. If anything, killing Explorers should be made more difficult. But I gather that runs somewhat counter to the current philosophy of placating the "moar easy killz plox! i r aw3sum! hnuuurrrr!" crowd.
|
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2360
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 18:44:00 -
[102] - Quote
Some feedback after getting on Sisi and testing. Got an average site in low sec, all 5 cans contained loot. It was so nice to not have the loot spew to deal with but with that being said I have a couple concerns. First, with the removal of loot spew there will be more hackers going out again which will further drive the value of sites down it might be wise to consider nerfing the loot tables just a little bit. Second is the Pirate Materials, is there any reason they are 1m3 each? That's huge when you consider they usually come is stacks of 35~150 one site can fill up your cargo hold, if your aren't lucky. On a related note those parts are still mostly worthless as they come in large stacks and once the BPC is manufactured the item is permanent it would be nice the see the stack quanity lowered and the volume decreased on each item. Something that I will bring up in a invention thread is the idea of the Interfaces to be consumable rather than permanent. -á --á |
Arla Sarain
7
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 15:36:00 -
[103] - Quote
Don't forget that there is an implant that increases loot spew duration by 5s
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ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
237
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 15:42:00 -
[104] - Quote
The market for WH data/relic loot has plummeted to the point where very few people in my corp even run them. Removing the loot spew is great, but I would like to argue that if you doubled the amount of loot in odyssey you really need to halve it again to where it was before, anything less and the sites are still worthless.
Also, could you think about making WH cans explode after failed hacks like everything else does? The ease of access to WH exploration sites has led to them being almost worthless. Difficult minigame be damned every idiot that can spam click just keeps trying again and again until they get the node, this makes deprives competent explorers of any advantage. The Wormhole Kid |
probag Bear
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 17:15:00 -
[105] - Quote
ExookiZ wrote:The market for WH data/relic loot has plummeted to the point where very few people in my corp even run them. Removing the loot spew is great, but I would like to argue that if you doubled the amount of loot in odyssey you really need to halve it again to where it was before, anything less and the sites are still worthless.
I've dried up Jita's entire supply of WH relic loot too many times to count over the last month. Please go back to running them. |
Bohneik Itohn
Periphery Bound
148
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 17:19:00 -
[106] - Quote
probag Bear wrote: I've dried up Jita's entire supply of WH relic loot too many times to count over the last month. Please go back to running them.
So what you're saying is the WH guys are undercutting themselves out of a market that they have complete control over...
Genius.... |
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 17:29:00 -
[107] - Quote
Message in OP makes me happy. May actually go back and try exploration again, once this hits TQ. Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EVE-oconomy and o-kay for you. |
Vishtar
Infinite Holdings Ltd
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.24 19:34:00 -
[108] - Quote
Is this changing in wormhole sites as well as normal space exploration sites? |
Owen Levanth
Federated Deep Space Explorations
158
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 09:22:00 -
[109] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:I've done some tidying up of the site completion mechanics that mean the exploration site gets pulled down and recreated elsewhere which should hopefully help with that problem. It should be live on Sisi after the next update.
We added some junk loot in as well, partly because it was in the scattered containers and partly because there are otherwise occasionally empty containers. We're concerned that it might just be annoying for people to have to jettison it all the time (using Loot All) or cherry pick out the good stuff from the inventory window. Any thoughts, preferably after trying it out on Sisi?
How about adding some lore related loot instead of junk? I feel kind of silly using my space archaeology skill to essentially sift through space trash. Followed by selling what I stole. Make some lore-relevanted items I can store in my museum. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
2407
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 09:57:00 -
[110] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:I've done some tidying up of the site completion mechanics that mean the exploration site gets pulled down and recreated elsewhere which should hopefully help with that problem. It should be live on Sisi after the next update.
We added some junk loot in as well, partly because it was in the scattered containers and partly because there are otherwise occasionally empty containers. We're concerned that it might just be annoying for people to have to jettison it all the time (using Loot All) or cherry pick out the good stuff from the inventory window. Any thoughts, preferably after trying it out on Sisi? How about adding some lore related loot instead of junk? I feel kind of silly using my space archaeology skill to essentially sift through space trash. Followed by selling what I stole. Make some lore-relevanted items I can store in my museum.
Eve has lore, who cares?
Sorry, but your idea is hopeless. This is not a signature. |
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Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
127
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 16:51:00 -
[111] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:IWe're concerned that it might just be annoying for people to have to jettison it all the time (using Loot All) or cherry pick out the good stuff from the inventory window. Any thoughts, preferably after trying it out on Sisi?
I'd rather cherry pick since it allows me to control precious cargo space more easily. A couple of problems with jettison: there is a timer before jettisoning again, & the jettison can leaves an identifying footprint for hunters.
|
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
22
|
Posted - 2014.05.25 19:42:00 -
[112] - Quote
By all means necessary , i think CCP should avoid cherry picking ( making explo container scan immune is the simplest and best method). For me there is 3 major concerns actually. -Balance drop table to maintain market value . -Make the hacking game more challenging and enjoyable aka multicores + timer . -Avoid cherry picking . |
|
CCP Bayesian
1104
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 09:07:00 -
[113] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Don't forget that there is an implant that increases loot spew duration by 5s
We haven't and its getting changed. EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter |
|
Onslaughtor
Occult National Security Affirmative.
90
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 09:26:00 -
[114] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:I've done some tidying up of the site completion mechanics that mean the exploration site gets pulled down and recreated elsewhere which should hopefully help with that problem. It should be live on Sisi after the next update.
We added some junk loot in as well, partly because it was in the scattered containers and partly because there are otherwise occasionally empty containers. We're concerned that it might just be annoying for people to have to jettison it all the time (using Loot All) or cherry pick out the good stuff from the inventory window. Any thoughts, preferably after trying it out on Sisi? How about adding some lore related loot instead of junk? I feel kind of silly using my space archaeology skill to essentially sift through space trash. Followed by selling what I stole. Make some lore-relevanted items I can store in my museum.
Kinda like the pirate gas sites. There is a lot of loot in there that gives flavor to the game world. We really need more of it. |
Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
116
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 09:53:00 -
[115] - Quote
I just tested a Relic site in a 0.0 system (K-QWHE). Some feedback:
- It isn't possible to save a bookmark on a specific can. I was pretty sure you could do this previously, but you can't anymore. I think I remember doing this to share a corp bookmark as a warp in for attacking. If you get +150km away from the cans, they are still able to be warped to.
- The cans once hacked have the "Set Name" option if you right click on them. If you try to set a name, it says "You can't rename this type of object". This option should probably be removed.
- No tooltips on the hacking containers themselves. This could probably be re-added.
- Cargo scanning still works on the containers. I'm OK with that. I cargo scanned ALL of the containers before I started hacking, and I didn't see any T2 loot. When I got to the last can, I scanned again, and I believe the contents had changed, as there was some T2 loot. This seems very odd.
- From this site in a 0.0 sec system, this is the total contents emptied after successfully hacking all containers. I'm used to getting 35-50M in loot, plus blueprints and the rare T2/Faction item. This amount seems rather low, but it could be due to the truesec rating of the system. I'll test again in a better truesec system.
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union - "Turning Lead into Gold since 2008" |
Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
116
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 10:15:00 -
[116] - Quote
Additional feedback from running an "Angel Sparking Transmitter" Data site in a -0.5 system:
- The Micro Jump Drive Blueprint icon looks like a BPO not a BPC, and has an error in the description: [no messageID: 295554] (copy). Screenshot.
- If you finish a can, but don't take all the loot, the icon for the can doesn't indicate that it still contains something. Shouldn't this be similar to how wrecks are? For example: White (solid) for contains loot but hasn't been accessed. Grey (solid) for contains loot but has been accessed. Grey (hollow) for does not contain loot.
- The items from a Data site are still extremely bulky. The Electrical Conduit parts take up almost my entire cargo bay, so I end up having to jetcan it. Datacores/Decryptors are also much more bulky than the loot from Relic sites, so I end up only keeping the choice ones.
- Noob question about the "junk loot" - Electronic Parts, Hydrogen Batteries, Carbon, etc. Is it still used in Outpost Construction? If it's removed, where will this stuff come from? When we were doing the lootspew, you'd have to watch your cargo space carefully or you might fill up and be full and not be able to grab good loot, but that isn't a problem anymore. Personally I'd like to see more lore related loot to replace this stuff if it's not actually necessary for building anything.
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union - "Turning Lead into Gold since 2008" |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
139
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 10:19:00 -
[117] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:As I said above the loot balancing is a WIP but I'll make sure your feedback reaches the right ears. I'm pretty sure we don't want to ruin any serendipitous benefits of the changes we made.
I definitely hope it is a work in process. Did not have much time to play with it so far, but I can already tell the value of items from the site is less than half. Your code should at least make sure there is at least one item of value - carbon and other PI materials do not count as items of value, nor those skill books.
Otherwise, nice to see the loot spew go. Never made much sense that pilots on salvage expeditions would not have the sense to bring a really big net to cover the doors.
|
|
CCP Bayesian
1104
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 10:37:00 -
[118] - Quote
The loot in the cans is currently setup to be 70% of the value it was after Odyssey when we doubled the loot to account for the Scattering. We'll be watching to see what happens but think this should be a good spot to start from. You probably can't see that from running one or two sites though as it will average out between cans that have lots of awesome stuff in and cans that don't.
Ransu Asanari, the HUD icon tells you whether the can has been hacked or not. It reflects the 'security status' of the can.
We think there is enough wrong with the balance of the loot in the Exploration Sites that a much larger pass needs to be made over it. For example Relic sites are typically worth much more than Data sites and there are some big jumps in the value of sites as you move through the progression in difficulty. It's something on Space Glitters backlog to look at. EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter |
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2360
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 10:39:00 -
[119] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:Don't forget that there is an implant that increases loot spew duration by 5s
We haven't and its getting changed. Any kind of teaser as to what it will become? -á --á |
|
CCP RedDawn
C C P C C P Alliance
423
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 10:46:00 -
[120] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:Don't forget that there is an implant that increases loot spew duration by 5s
We haven't and its getting changed. Any kind of teaser as to what it will become?
The loot scattering decay bonus from the Poteque 'Prospector' Environmental Analysis EY-1005 implant was replaced with a +5 Virus Coherence bonus for both data and relic analyzers.
This is on Singularity now.
Team Space Glitter |
|
|
Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
116
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 10:51:00 -
[121] - Quote
Quote:Ransu Asanari, the HUD icon tells you whether the can has been hacked or not. It reflects the 'security status' of the can. Right - I'm saying there's something wrong with this.
- In my overview, the can before being hacked shows as a solid white diamond. This matches the icon in space.
- In my overview, after being hacked, it shows as a hollow white diamond. This matches the icon in space.
- In my overview, After being accessed, it shows as a hollow white diamond. This does NOT match the icon in space - which shows as a hollow grey diamond. Shouldn't this match?
In addition, there's no way to tell if a hacked container still has loot in it, or not, based on the icon either in my overview, or in space. It would make sense to be able to tell at a glance if it had contents or not, and not have to open it or cargo scan it. With wrecks, we can see this easily by the solid/hollow setting.
Maybe this is a limitation, since I guess it's sort of the same as a jetcan/cargo container. Powder and Ball Alchemists Union - "Turning Lead into Gold since 2008" |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2360
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 11:15:00 -
[122] - Quote
CCP RedDawn wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:Don't forget that there is an implant that increases loot spew duration by 5s
We haven't and its getting changed. Any kind of teaser as to what it will become? The loot scattering decay bonus from the Poteque 'Prospector' Environmental Analysis EY-1005 implant was replaced with a +5 Virus Coherence bonus for both data and relic analyzers. This is on Singularity now. That is an excellent bonus for that implant -á --á |
Nantwig Mutbrecht
Perkone Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 12:01:00 -
[123] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP RedDawn wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:Don't forget that there is an implant that increases loot spew duration by 5s
We haven't and its getting changed. Any kind of teaser as to what it will become? The loot scattering decay bonus from the Poteque 'Prospector' Environmental Analysis EY-1005 implant was replaced with a +5 Virus Coherence bonus for both data and relic analyzers. This is on Singularity now. That is an excellent bonus for that implant
I hope you are kidding. I have a Virus Coherence of 110 standard, that is less than 5% increase. you lose it in chunks of 10 in highsec, 20 in lowsec, can't remember how much in null. which means the implant allows you to hack 0 (zero) more nodes, on average. only when you pick up a repair-augment and it happens to repair an odd amount that will cross the 20 barrier with this implant will you EVER feel the effect of this implant.
currently, the effect of the implant is so strong, that it is practically MENDATORY if you want to explore seriously. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2360
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 12:08:00 -
[124] - Quote
And yet if you find the core with only a little bit of coherence left the +5 very well may be the difference between success and failure. -á --á |
Nantwig Mutbrecht
Perkone Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 12:11:00 -
[125] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:And yet if you find the core with only a little bit of coherence left the +5 very well may be the difference between success and failure.
that has literally NEVER happened to me before, and i do exploration pretty much daily since half a year. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2360
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 12:24:00 -
[126] - Quote
Nantwig Mutbrecht wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:And yet if you find the core with only a little bit of coherence left the +5 very well may be the difference between success and failure. that has literally NEVER happened to me before, and i do exploration pretty much daily since half a year. Just because it has not doesn't mean it won't, and even it it does not happen to you it may happen to others. -á --á |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1184
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 12:36:00 -
[127] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The loot in the cans is currently setup to be 70% of the value it was after Odyssey when we doubled the loot to account for the Scattering.
I would've been more in favor of 80% given the average ratio of loot obtained versus total loot in the can, but its nice to see you making a step in the right direction and taking our feedback into account nonetheless :) Signature Tanking - Best Tanking. Beware the french guy!
|
Guth'Alak
EVE University Ivy League
13
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 12:44:00 -
[128] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The loot in the cans is currently setup to be 70% of the value it was after Odyssey when we doubled the loot to account for the Scattering. We'll be watching to see what happens but think this should be a good spot to start from. You probably can't see that from running one or two sites though as it will average out between cans that have lots of awesome stuff in and cans that don't.
This number should be higher. im usually able to get around 90% of the loot on average. i think 80% would be more appropriate - 70 is just too low. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
52
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 15:05:00 -
[129] - Quote
CCP RedDawn wrote:The loot scattering decay bonus from the Poteque 'Prospector' Environmental Analysis EY-1005 implant was replaced with a +5 Virus Coherence bonus for both data and relic analyzers.
Maybe it would be better this way:
Prospector hacking HC-905 - slot 9, +5 virus coherence for data, +3km hacking range
Prospector archeology AC-905 - slot 10, +5 virus coherence for relics, +3km hacking range Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á |
Darenthul
SUPERIOR RESOURCES
374
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 16:31:00 -
[130] - Quote
I am pretty disappointed in this, the 5 second delay on cans was really unique and a huge bonus. +5 Virus Coherency is borderline worthless to major explorers. Its definitely not worth picking up an implant over. "I find mining to be an incredibly relaxing thing to do after work. It's like fishing without waking up early. Or cold. But the beer, the beer is the same." - arramdaywalker |
|
Darenthul
SUPERIOR RESOURCES
374
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 16:48:00 -
[131] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The loot in the cans is currently setup to be 70% of the value it was after Odyssey when we doubled the loot to account for the Scattering. We'll be watching to see what happens but think this should be a good spot to start from. You probably can't see that from running one or two sites though as it will average out between cans that have lots of awesome stuff in and cans that don't. Ransu Asanari, the HUD icon tells you whether the can has been hacked or not. It reflects the 'security status' of the can. We think there is enough wrong with the balance of the loot in the Exploration Sites that a much larger pass needs to be made over it. For example Relic sites are typically worth much more than Data sites and there are some big jumps in the value of sites as you move through the progression in difficulty. It's something on Space Glitters backlog to look at.
Have you thought about viewing this on the window of Low/Null/High?
High-Sec Relic Sites for instance are worth much less than Data as opposed to Low/Null where they run higher. Would hate to see Relic Sites in High-Sec become even more worthless due to a blanket pass. "I find mining to be an incredibly relaxing thing to do after work. It's like fishing without waking up early. Or cold. But the beer, the beer is the same." - arramdaywalker |
Nantwig Mutbrecht
Perkone Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 21:35:00 -
[132] - Quote
Darenthul wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:The loot in the cans is currently setup to be 70% of the value it was after Odyssey when we doubled the loot to account for the Scattering. We'll be watching to see what happens but think this should be a good spot to start from. You probably can't see that from running one or two sites though as it will average out between cans that have lots of awesome stuff in and cans that don't. Ransu Asanari, the HUD icon tells you whether the can has been hacked or not. It reflects the 'security status' of the can. We think there is enough wrong with the balance of the loot in the Exploration Sites that a much larger pass needs to be made over it. For example Relic sites are typically worth much more than Data sites and there are some big jumps in the value of sites as you move through the progression in difficulty. It's something on Space Glitters backlog to look at. Have you thought about viewing this on the window of Low/Null/High? High-Sec Relic Sites for instance are worth much less than Data as opposed to Low/Null where they run higher. Would hate to see Relic Sites in High-Sec become even more worthless due to a blanket pass.
Quote: Relic Sites in High-Sec become even more worthless they cannot become more worthless, they are for all inteds and purposes COMPLETLY worthless. 0.
for example, the lowest highsec data site contains 2 hackable containers, on average you should get something along the lines of 1.6 Symmetries and 1.6 paritries from this. this is a grand total of 2-4 million depending on the region, roughly. so 2-4 million per smallest highsec data site. compare that to relicsites, you have like 0.000001% chance it feels like to find t2 salvage, t1 salvage is, in the amounts you find it in highsec, practically worthless. you will often get less than 1 million isk for running highsec relic sites, and much less than 1 million i might add. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
140
|
Posted - 2014.05.26 23:51:00 -
[133] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The loot in the cans is currently setup to be 70% of the value it was after Odyssey when we doubled the loot to account for the Scattering. We'll be watching to see what happens but think this should be a good spot to start from. You probably can't see that from running one or two sites though as it will average out between cans that have lots of awesome stuff in and cans that don't. Ransu Asanari, the HUD icon tells you whether the can has been hacked or not. It reflects the 'security status' of the can. We think there is enough wrong with the balance of the loot in the Exploration Sites that a much larger pass needs to be made over it. For example Relic sites are typically worth much more than Data sites and there are some big jumps in the value of sites as you move through the progression in difficulty. It's something on Space Glitters backlog to look at.
Will check it out. Thanks.
So what does it mean when you say there is enough wrong with the balance? Relic sites being too valuable or data sites being to undervalued?
It would make sense that the more difficult the container, the better the drop. Perhaps you could code the site so that the items of value are determined when the site spawns and then are distributed across the containers with the more valued items in the harder to hack containers? It would give incentive to open all containers (why waste time hacking a container with 1 carbon?). |
Darenthul
SUPERIOR RESOURCES
375
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 01:31:00 -
[134] - Quote
Nantwig Mutbrecht wrote:Darenthul wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:The loot in the cans is currently setup to be 70% of the value it was after Odyssey when we doubled the loot to account for the Scattering. We'll be watching to see what happens but think this should be a good spot to start from. You probably can't see that from running one or two sites though as it will average out between cans that have lots of awesome stuff in and cans that don't. Ransu Asanari, the HUD icon tells you whether the can has been hacked or not. It reflects the 'security status' of the can. We think there is enough wrong with the balance of the loot in the Exploration Sites that a much larger pass needs to be made over it. For example Relic sites are typically worth much more than Data sites and there are some big jumps in the value of sites as you move through the progression in difficulty. It's something on Space Glitters backlog to look at. Have you thought about viewing this on the window of Low/Null/High? High-Sec Relic Sites for instance are worth much less than Data as opposed to Low/Null where they run higher. Would hate to see Relic Sites in High-Sec become even more worthless due to a blanket pass. Quote: Relic Sites in High-Sec become even more worthless they cannot become more worthless, they are for all inteds and purposes COMPLETLY worthless. 0. for example, the lowest highsec data site contains 2 hackable containers, on average you should get something along the lines of 1.6 Symmetries and 1.6 paritries from this. this is a grand total of 2-4 million depending on the region, roughly. so 2-4 million per smallest highsec data site. compare that to relicsites, you have like 0.000001% chance it feels like to find t2 salvage, t1 salvage is, in the amounts you find it in highsec, practically worthless. you will often get less than 1 million isk for running highsec relic sites, and much less than 1 million i might add.
Honestly if not for the fact that I'm unsure whether Data/Relics respawn on the same trigger, I'd probably never run them. "I find mining to be an incredibly relaxing thing to do after work. It's like fishing without waking up early. Or cold. But the beer, the beer is the same." - arramdaywalker |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
140
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 01:39:00 -
[135] - Quote
I was able to find and run a relic and data site in -0.4 sec space. the values are improved from last night, but I have not run enough to really get an idea of the average. Still, much nicer to not have to deal with the spew. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
5355
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 05:06:00 -
[136] - Quote
How about failing a hack destroys half the loot in the can? Then failing again destroys half of what's left, and so on?
Then this implant can reduce the failed-hack-destruction percentage by various percentages depending on the level of the implant. e.g.: the 1/3/5 scale would be 10%, 20%, 30% meaning with the level 5 implant each failed hack would only destroy 20% of the loot in the can.
This has the same benefit as longer lifespan on cans, especially considering most of us knew which cans to catch and would catch the top two most valuable can types every time, losing only the useless junk. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1351
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 11:12:00 -
[137] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The loot in the cans is currently setup to be 70% of the value it was after Odyssey when we doubled the loot to account for the Scattering. We'll be watching to see what happens but think this should be a good spot to start from. You probably can't see that from running one or two sites though as it will average out between cans that have lots of awesome stuff in and cans that don't. Ransu Asanari, the HUD icon tells you whether the can has been hacked or not. It reflects the 'security status' of the can. We think there is enough wrong with the balance of the loot in the Exploration Sites that a much larger pass needs to be made over it. For example Relic sites are typically worth much more than Data sites and there are some big jumps in the value of sites as you move through the progression in difficulty. It's something on Space Glitters backlog to look at. A short version reply is I feel 70% is low and it should be at least 80%. I normally got every item of value from a high sec site when I would run them so even 80% would be a relative nerf though it makes the site faster so 80% should get closer to evening out.
A simple solution is to pull all that 'junk' stuff and replace it with drops similar to rogue drone sites mineral containers. Minerals will always have value. You could even include 'credit sticks' using the items that ESS drop which would then add value to hacking without causing a massive oversupply in 'exploration materials' or stepping on the toes of anything else in a significant way. The Credit sticks is probably the best idea to significantly increase the value of exploration without over supplying the market with items.
As has been said, if lvl 4's done normally on a standard agent turn 40-50 Mil/hr when well done, (SOE blitzed I consider an exception since if everyone did it, prices would go through the floor super fast) then Exploration in high sec should turn 50-60 Mil when done well (Well being max skills). This may call for high sec sites to have certain easy cans and certain much harder cans that require good skills, so the newbie can siphon off the edges of a site so to speak but the motherloads in the middle require near maxed skills and some luck & knowledge. But certainly should be looked into properly. |
Circumstantial Evidence
122
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 11:15:00 -
[138] - Quote
Another vote to make the implant bonus "more interesting."
A little extra coherence seems a lame choice, compared to the variety of challenges offered in the hacking puzzle. |
Moth Eisig
Soliloquy Against Death
44
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 12:45:00 -
[139] - Quote
Guth'Alak wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:The loot in the cans is currently setup to be 70% of the value it was after Odyssey when we doubled the loot to account for the Scattering. We'll be watching to see what happens but think this should be a good spot to start from. You probably can't see that from running one or two sites though as it will average out between cans that have lots of awesome stuff in and cans that don't. This number should be higher. im usually able to get around 90% of the loot on average. i think 80% would be more appropriate - 70 is just too low.
We need to realize that the cut in loot tables is, or at least should be, more aimed at keeping the market from crashing due to the probably massive influx of new/old explorers and the increased speed in which sites can be run than it is to adjust for all the loot dropping at once. With that in mind, I think 70% is a good starting point. It may need to drop even lower as it sounds like everyone and their will be exploring now.
CCP Bayesian wrote:
We think there is enough wrong with the balance of the loot in the Exploration Sites that a much larger pass needs to be made over it. For example Relic sites are typically worth much more than Data sites and there are some big jumps in the value of sites as you move through the progression in difficulty. It's something on Space Glitters backlog to look at.
Yes!
Nantwig Mutbrecht wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:And yet if you find the core with only a little bit of coherence left the +5 very well may be the difference between success and failure. that has literally NEVER happened to me before, and i do exploration pretty much daily since half a year.
You made clear by having a hard time remembering the strength of null nodes that you don't hack in null/WH. Barely having enough coherence or barely not having enough happens more frequently there. I've been paying attention to my hacks since the implant change was announced, and it would definitely have made a difference a few times. One nice thing is that it's most likely to be useful on the most valuable containers. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2363
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 13:01:00 -
[140] - Quote
While I like the +5 coherence for the implant, the only other thing I think would be interesting is a +1 utility slot for the hacking modules. -á --á |
|
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 18:06:00 -
[141] - Quote
Sarin Khorta wrote:I don't yet know enough about exploring, nor market fluxuations, to venture a truly informed viewpoint. However, I am seeing what appears to be an interesting contradiction between the three primary types of responses I've seen in this thread:
1. "Yay! No more loot scattering! I'll come back to exploring now!"
2. "No! Don't cut the loot in half! I'll leave exploring!"
3. "No! Don't cut the loot in half! It'll drive market prices up!"
This seemingly translates to:
1. You have one group of people who will come back simply because they didn't like the *way* they had to do things. Thus, more explorers.
2. You have another group of people who seem to think that reduced loot immediately equals reduced profit. Thus, fewer explorers.
3. You have a third group of people who insist that reduced loot will immediately drive prices up in the market. Thus, intuitively, you'd think this would make exploration more lucrative again (because while there is less loot, that loot is now worth more), and thus, more explorers.
There is a cognitive dissonance between these viewpoints. I agree that "half" is probably drastic, but perhaps not as drastic as it might seem at first glance. Exploring may well end up being worth about the same overall, but is now worth more *per haul* than it was before, possibly increasing the ISK/hour that explorers receive, making exploration even more attractive. Of course, it may also make exploration hunters more prominent as well...
Food for thought. Generally speaking, the price increase will not match the loss of volume. |
Owen Levanth
Federated Deep Space Explorations
160
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 20:18:00 -
[142] - Quote
CCP RedDawn wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:Don't forget that there is an implant that increases loot spew duration by 5s
We haven't and its getting changed. Any kind of teaser as to what it will become? The loot scattering decay bonus from the Poteque 'Prospector' Environmental Analysis EY-1005 implant was replaced with a +5 Virus Coherence bonus for both data and relic analyzers. This is on Singularity now.
This is a weird change. +5 seconds of loot scatter decay was rather strong and I would have expected a bonus to virus strength at least. Also, the way the mini-game works makes a bonus on coherence or strength really only work in increments of 10. Everything else only helps in rare edge cases.
In the rare cases were uneven healing would live me with an uneven coherence, I think I would rather take the loss and try again, instead of having one of my implant-slots blocked.
Edit:
The only good thing I can say about this idea is: The coherence bonus applies both to relic and data analyzers, instead of just one type like the others. So I guess someone could combine both implant-slots for a more sensible +10 bonus to whatever you want to hack.
Now if those implants would give +5 to virus strength instead, I would even consider using two of them together like this. Too bad. |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
68
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 21:29:00 -
[143] - Quote
I have to agree with the "don't cut loot in half" people, because T2 rigs are insanely priced if we cut the supply for the most expensive salvage. Having loot at its current level would initially make prices drop a bit, but then they would stabilize at some level, so the explorers make as much as they did before (probably a bit more after the price drop since more people will be able to use the things that drop in price). |
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
232
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 21:43:00 -
[144] - Quote
While exploration drops are being tweaked, can you guys remove the following BPCs from combat site loot: Reactive Armor Hardener, Ancillary Armor Repairer, Ancillary Shield Booster, Large Micro Jump Drive, Target Spectrum Breakers. |
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
52
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 22:05:00 -
[145] - Quote
Any chance for removing cargo scanning opportunity? It doesn't matter how you set out loot in "new" cans. Players will scan and loot only valuables ones. Plus there will be "gold rush" similiar to Odyssey release, because very few explorers liked scattering. You will need some safety valve for sites value, and hacking cans blindly may be one. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á |
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
24
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 23:04:00 -
[146] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Any chance for removing cargo scanning opportunity? It doesn't matter how you set out loot in "new" cans. Players will scan and loot only valuables ones. Plus there will be "gold rush" similiar to Odyssey release, because very few explorers liked scattering. You will need some safety valve for sites value, and hacking cans blindly may be one.
-Giving"unscannable" to Relic and Data container is the most urgent change should make CCP. -For the implants i'd found it nice, if we reduce the loot quantity dropped by 10 % and compensate this by implants .
|
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
2412
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 16:05:00 -
[147] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.
We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated.
Put some new changes on SiSi, get invaluable player feedback to help iron out any problems.
Seems to be a good way of doing things.
Perhaps you could be kind enough to introduce the Tool-tip team to your working methodology. This is not a signature. |
Igor Nappi
Perkone Caldari State
56
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 16:14:00 -
[148] - Quote
I'm not a huge fan of removing the scattering mechanism. The moment of loot scattering seemed to be the perfect moment to decloak and get tackle on ships running the site vOv Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game. |
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
28
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 22:01:00 -
[149] - Quote
Igor Nappi wrote:I'm not a huge fan of removing the scattering mechanism. The moment of loot scattering seemed to be the perfect moment to decloak and get tackle on ships running the site vOv
yes it ll be significantly harder to tackle ,but let s be honnest it's not that hard in the first place . |
HeXxploiT
Rhongomiant Legion Industries The Explicit Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 03:59:00 -
[150] - Quote
Sarin Khorta wrote:I don't yet know enough about exploring, nor market fluxuations, to venture a truly informed viewpoint. However, I am seeing what appears to be an interesting contradiction between the three primary types of responses I've seen in this thread:
1. "Yay! No more loot scattering! I'll come back to exploring now!"
2. "No! Don't cut the loot in half! I'll leave exploring!"
3. "No! Don't cut the loot in half! It'll drive market prices up!"
This seemingly translates to:
1. You have one group of people who will come back simply because they didn't like the *way* they had to do things. Thus, more explorers.
2. You have another group of people who seem to think that reduced loot immediately equals reduced profit. Thus, fewer explorers.
3. You have a third group of people who insist that reduced loot will immediately drive prices up in the market. Thus, intuitively, you'd think this would make exploration more lucrative again (because while there is less loot, that loot is now worth more), and thus, more explorers.
There is a cognitive dissonance between these viewpoints. I agree that "half" is probably drastic, but perhaps not as drastic as it might seem at first glance. Exploring may well end up being worth about the same overall, but is now worth more *per haul* than it was before, possibly increasing the ISK/hour that explorers receive, making exploration even more attractive. Of course, it may also make exploration hunters more prominent as well...
Food for thought.
Aaaah but you've made an incorrect assumption in that the third group are not explorers but are affected by the prices of those items in their own way.
Personally I think 70% will not be enough of a cut. Because the hacking game remains...which is what REALLY attracts explorers(not the loot spew) there will still be many more explorers than prior to the introduction of the hacking game/loot spew birth. Would really like to see it start out at 50% and then perfected from there. |
|
Kiandoshia
Tetragorn SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1742
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 11:27:00 -
[151] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:Edward Olmops wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.
We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated. Here is my feedback: Personally, I do NOT share the distaste for the loot explosion. But it is certainly ok to remove it again. BUT. Please don't cut the loot tables in half! Clever players were - even solo - able to get like 80% of the loot all the time (cargo scanner+choosing the right cans). The main thing you did with the loot explosion was that you GREATLY increased the supply for T2 salvage materials (and ESPECIALLY the rare, wanted ones since explorers are ofc first targetting the expensive stuff). Please have a look at the prices for T2 rigs in the last year. They were finally reasonable fitting options to consider in any situation. Which was imo one of the cool (although stealth) improvements in Odyssey. If you reduce the loot by 50%, you will pretty much kill off the use of those 300+ items again! (granted, some of this MAY be offset by more ppl doing exploration if the prices explode,but then again, they'll just find half as many items). Just have a look at the F&I threadnaught about JF and Freighter rebalancing. The prices for Single-Crystal Superalloy I-Beams went through the roof after the announcement. Yet they are less than 20% (!!) of what they used to be before Odyssey (remember selling them for 8-10mil apiece). So please, tune the loot down a bit if you feel you must, but not by 50% (maybe 10-20% would more realistically reflect what a good explorer today loses to the loot scattering mechanism). And no, I am NOT doing exploration (tested it in length though after the Odyssey release, so I hope I know what I am talking about). I quit exploration because of loot spew. It was just too annoying. With that removed I may do it again. So the reduction may be compensated a bit by more people doing exploration again.
I'll probably stop bothering with it. Now what? =o
Xander Phoena wrote:Very cool. Was never a fan of the loot scattering mechanic. Didn't really 'fit' with how we do most of our actions in space in Eve.
What? You mean like 95% afk? ^^ |
Moth Eisig
The Scope Gallente Federation
45
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 13:27:00 -
[152] - Quote
Myrthiis wrote:Igor Nappi wrote:I'm not a huge fan of removing the scattering mechanism. The moment of loot scattering seemed to be the perfect moment to decloak and get tackle on ships running the site vOv yes it ll be significantly harder to tackle ,but let s be honnest it's not that hard in the first place .
I've honestly found that my situational awareness is lowest when doing the hacking, not when grabbing the loot. |
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
28
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 18:24:00 -
[153] - Quote
Moth Eisig wrote:Myrthiis wrote:Igor Nappi wrote:I'm not a huge fan of removing the scattering mechanism. The moment of loot scattering seemed to be the perfect moment to decloak and get tackle on ships running the site vOv yes it ll be significantly harder to tackle ,but let s be honnest it's not that hard in the first place . I've honestly found that my situational awareness is lowest when doing the hacking, not when grabbing the loot.
That's true but with a bit of work you learn to d-scan every x nodes ,and u can still orbit the can at 2500 meters+ to insta recloack. With loot spew u were very vulnerable during the looting phase to any incoming hostile it was almost a free kill ,now it ll be harder for a non cloacky to get a point on a vigilant explorer . That's why i think a timer would be a great addition to the hacking game because it would stress the players (many would forgot to dscan during the mini game )and make them more vulnerable to an incoming . |
Cypherous
Evil Monkey Asylum Exploding Supremacy
91
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 01:31:00 -
[154] - Quote
Xander Phoena wrote:Very cool. Was never a fan of the loot scattering mechanic. Didn't really 'fit' with how we do most of our actions in space in Eve.
It was atleast pretty realistic from a RL perspective as cracking open a ship in the vacuum of space would have that effect, its just one of those times where reality doesn't make for very good gameplay :) |
Smugest Sniper
Shinigami Miners Spaceship Samurai
0
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Posted - 2014.05.31 11:53:00 -
[155] - Quote
I severely doubt more explorer's will generate more loot.
Statistically most of the good stuff is in Null-sec, and that means bubbles.
All it does is pad KB's with Cheetah wrecks of the unlucky.
And ultimately, lowers the availability of needed resources. |
KayleInara
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.05.31 18:38:00 -
[156] - Quote
CCP RedDawn wrote: The loot scattering decay bonus from the Poteque 'Prospector' Environmental Analysis EY-1005 implant was replaced with a +5 Virus Coherence bonus for both data and relic analyzers.
This is on Singularity now.
As others have mentioned already, this bonus is all but worthless, especially for this expensive implant (for newbie explorers anyway).
The +5 seconds was a HUGE boost to effectiveness in grabbing cans. +5 coherence bonus will almost never make a difference at all. Yes, it's *possible* once in a great while for it to allow you that one final click, but in my experience, that other poster is right when he says that coherence goes in chunks of 10/20/40, not 5's, so this is pointless 99% or more of the time.
If it was changed to +5 virus strength, then I would continue to use the implant, but coherence, I'll just dump these on the market to buy orders and eat the loss, as they'll be useless. |
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
85
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Posted - 2014.06.02 17:21:00 -
[157] - Quote
+10 would be a good start, but what about something more interesting.
Like..
We currently start a hack with no utilities, what if we could start with a lower-power version of one of the avaliable utilities, maybe a 25% kernel rot, or randomly targeting vector, or possibly reveal some small amount of the empty nodes at the beginning of the hack, say 5? |
Mashimara
Defenders of Commerce
0
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Posted - 2014.06.03 10:42:00 -
[158] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Phaezen Outamon wrote:I have run a couple of test hacks on Sisi this evening. The open container button on the radial menu of the hackable containers stays grey even after you have successfully hacked it, requiring you to use the right click menu to access the loot. Is this something you will be fixing? Yes. Thanks for the feedback!
You actually USE that radial crap?
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Shivanthar
Ace's and Eight's Brothers of Tangra
94
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Posted - 2014.06.03 12:39:00 -
[159] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The problem with that idea is that it means there is an incentive for people who aren't interested in hacking or exploration as such to come in and fail in order to get the loot out. It's mitigatable but ultimately we'd be leaving a mechanic in that doesn't quite fit into EVE's interaction scheme.
I'm personally much more of a fan of making the reward you get out proportional to how well you complete the hack. The idea floated by someone earlier of having to find 'loot nodes' is along the same lines of future ideas for hacking (here and elsewhere) I have.
Yes, I would also expect hacking game rewarding as time and retry count go down. Faster and successful hackers should be rewarded more I hacked less than 20 seconds once. Where is my faction loot! :P Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. |
bonobko
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2014.06.03 14:29:00 -
[160] - Quote
Loved the scatter container mechanism...now it is just plain easy.
What is the respawn time for the hacking/relic cans now in cosmos sites?
It used to be 20 minutes and i would get most of the stuff, now im sitting here more than an hour after i hacked all the cans in blood raider hacking site and the cans are not respawning...
I certainly hope this is just a bug... |
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Elohyn
0
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Posted - 2014.06.04 09:02:00 -
[161] - Quote
Don't know if it has been suggested already but what about enhancing the access minigame?
I regret the container spew removing but I admit it was a false challenge. As soon as one find the container type chart, getting the items is as easy as simply picking them up.
Still I liked the fact that you didn't get to pick all of the good stuff each time.
So my idea is: why not adding nodes in the hack minigame, one for each reward? You'd only get items if you'd manage to kill the corresponding node.
This would add significant and welcome difficulty and would be affected by skill level which is also a good thing.
Loot nodes should have high strength and coherence so it would be hard to kill all of them with low skill. Players would sometime have to chose between rewards they'd have seen earlier by scanning the cargo (like it was the case with the container scattering system). |
MaliciousNL
0
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Posted - 2014.06.05 13:03:00 -
[162] - Quote
Quote: Exploration:
Contested Guristas Covert Research Facility has been added to High and Low security space. Besieged Covert Research Facility has been added to Low security space. (These will be unlocked once players have completed the Contested Guristas Covert Research Facility challenge) The loot scattering mechanic has been completely removed from all sites that contained that functionality. Exploration loot tables have been adjusted to compensate for the loot scattering removal. Thanks to the pirates' completely irresponsible Isogen-5-fuelled research into ultrahigh-velocity transport, more wormholes have begun appearing in low security space. Anomalies full of Hedbergite, Hemorphite, Jaspet, and in rare cases Arkonor and Bistot have begun to appear throughout low security space. Hacking containers in Data Sites now have the appropriate collision detection.
Hacking containers in Data Sites now have the appropriate collision detection.
I cant seem to get it translated to Dutch, but what do they mean with Appropriate collision detection???
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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
57
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Posted - 2014.06.05 20:16:00 -
[163] - Quote
I may have found bug with cans today. When i want to force can explosion (hit x on hacking screen, then again) cans are not exploding and my hacking device is looped on can i wanted to explode. Tested this on both relics and data sites in null. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
704
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Posted - 2014.06.10 17:18:00 -
[164] - Quote
I cannot tell you how many times I successfully hacke a packed can and got very little despite having trained covops 5 and T2 data/relic modules. Not all T2 salvage, drone components, or datacores are in the same type of "bukakke can" (oh god thats funny.)
That being said, on average I did get most of what I was looking for. So honestly I ahve to say a 50% nerf is far too harsh, especially considering what it will do to T2 salvage/rig prices. We really don't want to go back to 250M isk for medium trimark IIs. (Even though salvaging battlefields was insanely profitable.)
I wonder if a Venture would make a good ninja salvager...
GÇ£I personally refuse to help AAA take space from itself so it can become an even shittier version of itselfGÇ¥
-Grath Telkin, 2014. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
704
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 17:26:00 -
[165] - Quote
MaliciousNL wrote:I cant seem to get it translated to Dutch, but what do they mean with Appropriate collision detection???
Certain cans in certain sites had a massively overblown physics sphere size. It was so large that you would bounce off of it at about 4000 meters. This pretty much screwed you because you couldn't get to half the spew cans when it blew. I have personally been screwed by this a number of times, once on an extremely valuable BPC.
With the removal of loot spew, this would have made the cans completely unlootable. Glad to see it getting fixed.
GÇ£I personally refuse to help AAA take space from itself so it can become an even shittier version of itselfGÇ¥
-Grath Telkin, 2014. |
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