Now we come to the real suggestion. You just don't want anyone to be able to mess with you at all without being killed by CONCORD.

Very far from, when they war dec I want to take out their costly logi ships and blow up their PoS while my corpies are striking their mining fleet.

But with the current system. all I can attack are cheap expendable ships.

Currently hi sec wars are just a bunch of griefers in a corp that only consists of PvP oriented ships and characters war deccing everything in sight that is an easy target, so they have some targets to gank. Cowardly keeping all their own logi and income out of the warring corp, making it pretty much risk free to declare the war.

Very far from, when they war dec I want to take out their costly logi ships and blow up their PoS while my corpies are striking their mining fleet.

But with the current system. all I can attack are cheap expendable ships.

A valid engagement would be one where you could help your friend by using guns instead of rep if you were a combat and not a logi ship - without getting concorded.

Helping with rep should be treated no different from shooting at the opposite target.

Well, point one breaks incursions, and point two is meaningless. Well done OP.

Post your lossmails.

Now ur saying they have plenty of soft targets.

While, on the whole, I would say the OP is pointless whinging (as is generally the case whenever anyone starts using the term "griefing" on the Eve O forums), I can't really disagree about neutral logi.

There's something very disingenuous about the canned, "Neutral logi go suspect!" stock response. It's technically true, but it's rarely actually a useful fact w/ regard to average gameplay situations.


Neutral logi circumvents any requirement to commit or endanger the resource in any way prior to the actual instant of engagement. Other resources become "fair targets" at undock-time, while the quirks of the engagement rules mean logi don't become fair targets until the logi is actually activated - an event that is entirely under the control of the logi pilot. This eliminates opportunity for the opposition to preempt the neutral logi: You're only permitted to react.


Given the above, much like OGB, neutral logi is a "something for nothing" situation. The objectively correct decision is to keep your logi neutral. There's no tradeoff, cost, or disadvantage for doing so, making it an obvious tactical choice, 100% of the time, which doesn't really mesh with most of the rest of the game, where decisions generally have a few items in both the "pro" and "con" columns.

That being the case, I don't really see any reason why a CONCORD response would be inappropriate. If you want to use logi in your war, you still can - you just have to actually commit the resource at undock time instead of at engagement time, and I sincerely doubt there are any credible arguments for why that would be "bad".

Well aware it isn't punishable as grief play under CCP rules, but that doesn't change that those people are not after a war, but only out to grief people.

Because then you basically break incursions? Someone might become war target in the fleet, bam logis concorded.

Also who cares, really? If you can't handle suspect logies, bring your own. Also, what if there are logis for hire corporations?

All non-attackable and protected by Concord.

Please read before replying.

How about a trade: neutral logis get CONCORDed for interfering in a wardec, and all your industrial alts get flagged as WTs whenever hauling through empire? Fair's fair and all.

I can't help but think that a neutral logi assisting an at war pilot should be tantamount to a declaration of war by the logi on behalf of the logis corp (with associated cost). If the logi pilot doesn't stop repping then a concord response would be appropriate as they are attacking the other corp before their 24 hour wardec period has elapsed.

Were you here for the nanonerf? Back when nanofleets were a big thing, one of the common (and similarly disingenuous) arguments in favor of nano was, "If it's such a big deal just bring your own nano fleet!"

The problem with that is that, one of the key identifiers of a patently broken mechanic is that the mechanic is its own counter.

- There is no way to make a system for who won what war without making it either arbitrary or decided by the players. If its arbitrary its not going to work, different corps attack eachother for different reasons, its not about the isk war all the time. If players decide their own objective then naturally they will give themselves the easiest, or eachother the hardest, possible objectives to win the war and get their 100mil iskies. the idea just wont work.

i like the idea of giving defenders something to achieve to end a dec early. my own suggestion was a structure bash.

indeed, friends are overpowered. /joke

luckily in this case there are various counters to logi

anyone can shoot them when they go suspect. u can bring friends from outside the war to blap them, or u can bring alts in a celestis/blackbird and e-war them (edit - also geddons). Or u can fight in a very public place, some ppl do shoot suspects.

bringing more logi is not the only counter to logi.

Can you shoot them when they undock?

Can you provide a compelling reason why you shouldn't be able to shoot them when they undock?

Is there an actual, good reason why they should be able to avoid being committed until they actually engage?

What about off corp intel covops? What about off corp logistics (I mean real logistics, not logi ships)? What about awoxers?

All of these and more can safely tip the scale. Why do you hate on logis so much?

The one who surrenders (or chickens out by stopping the paying of bills) didn't win.

Extremely simple.

Can you shoot them when they undock?
Can you provide a compelling reason why you shouldn't be able to shoot them when they undock?
Is there an actual, good reason why they should be able to avoid being committed until they actually engage?

Sadly forcing people's non-combat ships and PoS-alts into a corp is not possible. Even if CCP wanted to, its simply to not tell them who owns the account and pay it with plex.

1: They are not going to wait till the timer is run out before they dock.
2: Points go away when you die because you were engaged by ships with no legal engament.
3: Ships in war are targets when the leave the station, out of corp logis that waited out their 15 minute timer are not. And can then travel safely protected by concord.

CONCORDING logi in a war or a duel is not going to happen. its part of the games ethos to have secret allies and sneaky tactics. CCP deliberately made logi a possibility in duels, it will always be deliberately made possible in wars.

If u are that frustrated with logi being invincible upto the point it interferes with a dec, then goto low sec when u get decced.

All non-attackable and protected by Concord.

Please read before replying.

1. which is why you point them and then switch primary to the logi.
2. don't die and/or bring more points.
3. station games still suck ... which is why engaging on station is stupid.

edit -- seriously, worse than logi is neutral OGB.

Risk/Reward is a far greater part of the game's ethos and, as already noted, OGB is being nerfed for much the same reason: It provides something for nothing by way of the "optimal" gameplay being a complete minimization of risk.

It's an outlier, and it's inconsistent with the rest of the rules of the game. I can't have a "Secret ally" in an offense-oriented ship show up and engage my wartargets, but for some reason it's okay with logi because reasons.

hint -- you can issue your own declarations of war.

right so you need to wardec another corp because of a lame game mechanism, dont forget it takes 24 hours to kick in. its a flaw in the wardeccing system. period it should be adressed by CCP not by players with half working solutions.

so the aggressors have to pay for the war, and have to keep paying for the war forever or lose their 100mil
how is that not hilariously broken when the defenders can just wait in station or corp hop?

Wardecs, even for griefing, is a legitimate mechanic in a game where player conflict is a design goal. try to think of a way to make wardecs more engaging for all involved