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Velenia Ankletickler Silverflames 7	Posted - 2014.05.30 11:38:00 - [1] - Quote Currently hi sec wars are just a bunch of griefers in a corp that only consists of PvP oriented ships and characters war deccing everything in sight that is an easy target, so they have some targets to gank. Cowardly keeping all their own logi and income out of the warring corp, making it pretty much risk free to declare the war. Would like to see some changes so wars were more like wars and not just ganking / griefing. 1: Concord any logi ship that does not have the right to engage in the battle. If I don't want to fit a scrambler to my ship, I can't just bring a a safe out of war alt ship and scramble with that, it will get concorded. If I don't want to fit neuts, I can't just bring a safe out of war alt ship full of neuts and neut with that, it will get concorded. Why can I bring a safe out of war repair ship and repair with that if I don't want to fit repair? (and sensor boost me, and give me all the cap I can use). When the logi ships don't have to be in the warring corp, they are safe to fly around and easy to just have floating around in the system - well hidden from the other party in the war by their anonymous NPC corp, and protected by concord, ready to warp in and assist you when you engage targets. This change will add a bit of risk to declaring a war by forcing the logis into the warring corp, as well as make it easier to defend yourself from a war dec by knowing the enemy. Don't come and whine the "ohh but I am logi, I wouldn't know if I could rep a ship without getting Concorded" excuse, it is not true, your Safety will prevent you get concorded unaware. 2: Make a deposit of 100mill the war deccing corp has to place in order to declare the war, this deposit goes to the winner of the war. The war dec is no longer risk free for the griefers. And there is some penalty for just quitting your corp if you accidentally dec someone who can fight back. If the war deccing corp fails to force a surrender from the target and simply stop paying the bills - they loose the war. 100 mill is nothing for a real war, and possible way too little since the war deccer of course are still hiding their assets like PoS, haulers and miners outside corp. But I think it will be a significant amount to prevent griefers from just randomly war dec 10 new small industrial corps a week to have some helpless targets to blow up to pad their killboard. If you just want an environment where you can blow up anything you come across, its not Hi sec, it is low sec. But that of course puts your out of corp logis at risk ...
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 2680	Posted - 2014.05.30 11:56:00 - [2] - Quote Well, point one breaks incursions, and point two is meaningless. Well done OP. Post your lossmails.
Tchulen Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult 767	Posted - 2014.05.30 11:56:00 - [3] - Quote I pretty much agree with everything you've said although considering the responses to past suggestions of this ilk it's unlikely to be popular
Tchulen Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult 767	Posted - 2014.05.30 12:14:00 - [4] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: Well, point one breaks incursions, and point two is meaningless. Well done OP. Post your lossmails. Yeah, ok, I didn't think of that. Good point. I also completely and temporarily forgot that you can't wardec NPC corps so there is a way of avoiding it entirely in high sec. So yeah, not so much support from me although I do kinda feel sorry for the OP.
Velenia Ankletickler Silverflames 9	Posted - 2014.05.30 12:39:00 - [5] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: Well, point one breaks incursions, and point two is meaningless. Well done OP. Post your lossmails. Come with some arguments and don't just troll. How does point 1 break incursions?
Arden Elenduil The League of Extraordinary Mentlegen 71	Posted - 2014.05.30 12:51:00 - [6] - Quote Neutral logi already go suspect when they start repping someone that's fighting someone else, be it in a wardec or not. That instantly puts those logi at risk of being shot at. Second point is rejected because you haven't specified HOW the winning corp would be declared (kill numbers, isk lost, etc...). The thing is, right now it's way too easy for the "victims" of a wardec to simply drop corp and reform or stay docked up and simply wait out the dec. Resulting in the wardeccers having paid a 50 mil fee for nothing. Fix the problem of wardec avoidance first, THEN start talking about adding some additional risk for the wardeccers. Also, if you want to be able to form a corporation, you'll have to accept the fact that you'll be at risk of being attacked by other players. This is Eve Online, not some fairy wonderland.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 6583	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:01:00 - [7] - Quote Wardecs are trivially easy to avoid. You don't get to talk about nerfing any part of them, until the dec dodging exploit is fixed. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 829	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:08:00 - [8] - Quote in order too stop the 20 odd active wars these griefers do .. put the set limit back we used too have ..it was 3 .. maybe bring it up to 5 or 6. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please.
Velicitia Arma Artificer 2270	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:17:00 - [9] - Quote You should probably read up on what CCP considers "greif play".. In case you don't get it the first several times through ... CCP Games wrote: [Grief play] should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play... (emphasis added) Now that we've cleared up that hisec deccers aren't "greifers" ... it's entirely your fault that you are ill-equipped to handle an incoming wardec. *You should train some gunboat skills.* On to your points: 1. Soon as a logiboat shows up and starts helping one side or the other, they're considered combatants in the war. Kill them. 2. This is just bad. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Velenia Ankletickler Silverflames 9	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:36:00 - [10] - Quote Arden Elenduil wrote: Neutral logi already go suspect when they start repping someone that's fighting someone else, be it in a wardec or not. That instantly puts those logi at risk of being shot at. So after they have been hidden and protected by concord, and then joins a battle to completely tip the balance, they become targets for a few seconds while the enemy is mobbed up. And then they dock and return to their protected anonymous state while traveling the to next system where they are going to wait safely until a battle is safe to join. That is not being a risk.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 6583	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:37:00 - [11] - Quote Velenia Ankletickler wrote: Arden Elenduil wrote: Neutral logi already go suspect when they start repping someone that's fighting someone else, be it in a wardec or not. That instantly puts those logi at risk of being shot at. So after they have been hidden and protected by concord, and then joins a battle to completely tip the balance, they become targets for a few seconds while the enemy is mobbed up. And then they dock and return to their protected anonymous state while traveling the to next system where they are going to wait safely until a battle is safe to join. That is not being a risk. "hidden"? Lol. If you see a bunch of war targets right next to a bunch of logi ships, you, as a thinking, reasoning adult, should be able to put two and two together. L2Intel. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
Velenia Ankletickler Silverflames 9	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:41:00 - [12] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: If you see a bunch of war targets right next to a bunch of logi ships, you, as a thinking, reasoning adult, should be able to put two and two together. L2Intel. I guess you haven't realized you can have different groups of your fleet waiting at different parts of a system and then warp to each other later, when it is serves a purpose.
Velenia Ankletickler Silverflames 9	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:43:00 - [13] - Quote Velicitia wrote: You should probably read up on what CCP considers "greif play".. In case you don't get it the first several times through ... Well aware it isn't punishable as grief play under CCP rules, but that doesn't change that those people are not after a war, but only out to grief people.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 6583	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:44:00 - [14] - Quote Velenia Ankletickler wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: If you see a bunch of war targets right next to a bunch of logi ships, you, as a thinking, reasoning adult, should be able to put two and two together. L2Intel. I guess you haven't realized you can have different groups of your fleet waiting at different parts of a system and then warp to each other later, when it is serves a purpose. I guess you haven't realized yet that intel is a thing. You can find out the known alts of a wardec group fairly easily. Especially if you are doing it right and using neutral scouts yourself. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 6583	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:45:00 - [15] - Quote Velenia Ankletickler wrote: Velicitia wrote: You should probably read up on what CCP considers "greif play".. In case you don't get it the first several times through ... Well aware it isn't punishable as grief play under CCP rules, but that doesn't change that those people are not after a war, but only out to grief people. Wrong. Because what they are doing is legitimate gameplay, not griefing. By definition. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
Velenia Ankletickler Silverflames 9	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:47:00 - [16] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Velenia Ankletickler wrote: Velicitia wrote: You should probably read up on what CCP considers "greif play".. In case you don't get it the first several times through ... Well aware it isn't punishable as grief play under CCP rules, but that doesn't change that those people are not after a war, but only out to grief people. Wrong. Because what they are doing is legitimate gameplay, not griefing. By definition. Just because griefing is legitimate, does not make it stop being griefing.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 6583	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:49:00 - [17] - Quote Velenia Ankletickler wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Velenia Ankletickler wrote: Velicitia wrote: You should probably read up on what CCP considers "greif play".. In case you don't get it the first several times through ... Well aware it isn't punishable as grief play under CCP rules, but that doesn't change that those people are not after a war, but only out to grief people. Wrong. Because what they are doing is legitimate gameplay, not griefing. By definition. Just because griefing is legitimate, does not make it stop being griefing. It's not griefing. CCP themselves say so. As has been demonstrated to you. And yet you continue to misuse the term, and apply in situations where it does not apply. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
Walter Hart White Heisenberg Minings 42	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:53:00 - [18] - Quote Velenia Ankletickler wrote: Danika Princip wrote: Well, point one breaks incursions, and point two is meaningless. Well done OP. Post your lossmails. Come with some arguments and don't just troll. How does point 1 break incursions? Because it does? Incursions are fleets composed with pilots from many different corporations. If you can't rep neutrals, logis in incursions would not be able to either without going suspect. Which is just gank magnet or very stupid contesting where they would shoot each other logis and then die.
Velenia Ankletickler Silverflames 9	Posted - 2014.05.30 13:59:00 - [19] - Quote Walter Hart White wrote: How does point 1 break incursions? Because it does? Incursions are fleets composed with pilots from many different corporations. If you can't rep neutrals, logis in incursions would not be able to either without going suspect. Which is just gank magnet or very stupid contesting where they would shoot each other logis and then die.[/quote] There is no illegal engagement there, why would anyone get concorded? The Logi has valid engagement with all targets. The scrammer and neuter from my example would also not get concorded in this scenario. If this context is too hard to see out of the example, I shall go make it more clear in the original post.
Noxisia Arkana Deadspace Knights 356	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:04:00 - [20] - Quote On the flipside, it's as easy to avoid wardecs as it is to start them... just food for thought.
Velicitia Arma Artificer 2271	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:07:00 - [21] - Quote Velenia Ankletickler wrote: Velicitia wrote: You should probably read up on what CCP considers "greif play".. In case you don't get it the first several times through ... Well aware it isn't punishable as grief play under CCP rules, but that doesn't change that those people are not after a war, but only out to grief people. "griefing" edit to add Velenia Ankletickler wrote: and then joins a battle to completely tip the balance, they become targets for a few seconds while the enemy is mobbed up. And then they dock... 1. it's a 15 minute timer [edit 2 ... well it used to be ... $deity knows if it's stayed the same] 2. points - use them 3. Station games are the bane of all sec space. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Velenia Ankletickler Silverflames 9	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:08:00 - [22] - Quote Noxisia Arkana wrote: On the flipside, it's as easy to avoid wardecs as it is to start them... just food for thought. Might as well not have corps or war decs at all in hi sec then. Would rather see a system that added some fun to the game than just removing features.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 6585	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:10:00 - [23] - Quote Velenia Ankletickler wrote: Noxisia Arkana wrote: On the flipside, it's as easy to avoid wardecs as it is to start them... just food for thought. Might as well not have corps or war decs at all in hi sec then. Would rather see a system that added some fun to the game than just removing features. Now we come to the real suggestion. You just don't want anyone to be able to mess with you at all without being killed by CONCORD. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
Velicitia Arma Artificer 2271	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:12:00 - [24] - Quote Velenia Ankletickler wrote: Noxisia Arkana wrote: On the flipside, it's as easy to avoid wardecs as it is to start them... just food for thought. Might as well not have corps or war decs at all in hi sec then. Would rather see a system that added some fun to the game than just removing features. Step one -- grab a few frigates. Step two -- grab a bottle of Jack (or, for the more discerning pilot -- Macallan) Step three -- get on comms (TS, Vent, Mumble, or Eve-Voice) Step four -- look for the WTs Step four -- engage and **** their face. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility 3305	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:15:00 - [25] - Quote Velicitia wrote: Step two -- grab a bottle of Jack (or, for the more discerning pilot -- Macallan) real warriors begin the day fresh and early with a triple-white chocolate mini frappuchinno
Velicitia Arma Artificer 2271	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:17:00 - [26] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Velicitia wrote: Step two -- grab a bottle of Jack (or, for the more discerning pilot -- Macallan) real warriors begin the day fresh and early with a triple-white chocolate mini frappuchinno well, yeah ... but liquor is "courage in a bottle" so ... ... also, it's always a good time when drunk-roaming. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Walter Hart White Heisenberg Minings 44	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:35:00 - [27] - Quote Velenia Ankletickler wrote: Walter Hart White wrote: Velenia Ankletickler wrote: How does point 1 break incursions? Because it does? Incursions are fleets composed with pilots from many different corporations. If you can't rep neutrals, logis in incursions would not be able to either without going suspect. Which is just gank magnet or very stupid contesting where they would shoot each other logis and then die. There is no illegal engagement there, why would anyone get concorded? The Logi has valid engagement with all targets. The scrammer and neuter from my example would also not get concorded in this scenario. If this context is too hard to see out of the example, I shall go make it more clear in the original post. EDIT It was actually already there, have put it in bold and added extra explanation. More EDIT, fixed the quotation I had messed up. Define valid engagement then? This has nothing to do with scrams, logis do not rep sansha ships...
Velenia Ankletickler Silverflames 9	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:37:00 - [28] - Quote Velicitia wrote: 1. it's a 15 minute timer [edit 2 ... well it used to be ... $deity knows if it's stayed the same] 2. points - use them 3. Station games are the bane of all sec space. 1: They are not going to wait till the timer is run out before they dock. 2: Points go away when you die because you were engaged by ships with no legal engament. 3: Ships in war are targets when the leave the station, out of corp logis that waited out their 15 minute timer are not. And can then travel safely protected by concord.
Velenia Ankletickler Silverflames 9	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:43:00 - [29] - Quote Walter Hart White wrote: Define valid engagement then? This has nothing to do with scrams, logis do not rep sansha ships... A valid engagement would be one where you could help your friend by using guns instead of rep if you were a combat and not a logi ship - without getting concorded. Helping with rep should be treated no different from shooting at the opposite target.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1595	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:52:00 - [30] - Quote In a sandbox like eve, grief decs are not illegitimate. CCP also say greif decs are not 'rampant'. how do u know u are being griefed? how do u know they have not been hired by ur competitors? the truth is, u dnt. as for ur ideas, - logi interference in a war is NEVER going to become concordable. Eve is all about sneaky tactics just like this. understand that the number of members in a corp that is attacking u is not a guaranteed measurement of their force. Try to have a plan in case logi come onto the field and do extensive intel on the bad guys if u intend to fight a dec. Do u not have friends that can come in an blap suspects? do u not have friends that can provide u with logi? make some? - There is no way to make a system for who won what war without making it either arbitrary or decided by the players. If its arbitrary its not going to work, different corps attack eachother for different reasons, its not about the isk war all the time. If players decide their own objective then naturally they will give themselves the easiest, or eachother the hardest, possible objectives to win the war and get their 100mil iskies. the idea just wont work. i like the idea of giving defenders something to achieve to end a dec early. my own suggestion was a structure bash. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

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