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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Wodin Drukvik
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.10.03 20:56:00 -
[331]
You seem to be making two arguments, Kunming - one is that the proposed revamp would not be "Amarrian" enough because it uses a weapons system only really seen on a few ships(Inquisitor, *Malediction, Arbitrator, Omen, *Curse, *Sacrilege, Prophecy, Absolution, *Damnation, and Apoc) as its primary motivation. I would argue that the ships in their proposed form(armor tanked, very hard to kill missile spammers) would be more Amarrian than the current confused hybrids that exist now(fill the turrets, then do something with the leftovers and hope it's as good as the other ship in its class). Why? Because the primary concern is not the weapons system, which you're focusing on, but rather the tank and using Caldari technology to make that extremely strong tank viable on the field of battle. All Amarrian "tank" ships have the cognitive dissonance problem in that they spend their own most precious resource(cap) wantonly to attempt to kill their opposition, and in doing so contribute to their own death. That's the reason we see so many autocannon Punisher/Maller/Prophecy setups - even with the crappy, crappy damage that unbonused ACs do, it's still better than losing the fight specifically because you went into the field with two counterproductive ideas. Part of the genius of the original post was that it was an acknowledgement of the reality of this situation, and worked with that reality to make a thematically clean setup.
The other point you're trying to put forward is that the ships should instead be revamped differently, with the idea that they are extremely cap-intensive shield-tanking laserboats. However, this would require much more significant rebalancing than the proposed changes, because in every instance slot setups would need to shift to make shield-tanking viable. Further, as Deva noted, there are already two classes of shield-tank + gunnery setups - the Moa -> Ferox -> Eagle -> Rokh line of Caldari ships, and the Minmatar line of inherently more powerful active shield tanks(BC -> Command Ship -> Tier 3 BS). Changing the Khanid designs to your suggestion would directly step on the toes of one of those two specialities, which is problematic from a design point of view. Whether or not the difference in weapons system is enough, the point remains that there are a distinct lack of possible alternate bonuses to incentivize shieldtanking - remember that a built-in amp is already taken by Minmatar, and a built-in Invuln(what would be the natural fit) is already taken by Caldari.
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Zosimos Sabina
Amarr Loot
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Posted - 2006.10.03 20:59:00 -
[332]
shields and lasers is boring, i'd rather see missiles and armor.
You're going to need cap injection to sustain a heavy (boost+amp, or 2x rep) tank, just like armor tanking, so I don't see any efficiency difference tbh.
Amarr tank ships have this fundamental flaw of trying to tank well and use the most cap intensive weapons in the game. It's impossible, which is why trying to give them an uber tank ship isn't going to work out. You will always need cap injection, which anybody with a free midslot can do.
Using capless missiles is a different story. You might see some sustainable passive setups then, since you don't need a web with missiles either, freeing up slots for cap regen.
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Kunming
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.03 21:21:00 -
[333]
Originally by: Wodin Drukvik You seem to be making two arguments, Kunming - one is that the proposed revamp would not be "Amarrian" enough because it uses a weapons system only really seen on a few ships(Inquisitor, *Malediction, Arbitrator, Omen, *Curse, *Sacrilege, Prophecy, Absolution, *Damnation, and Apoc) as its primary motivation. I would argue that the ships in their proposed form(armor tanked, very hard to kill missile spammers) would be more Amarrian than the current confused hybrids that exist now(fill the turrets, then do something with the leftovers and hope it's as good as the other ship in its class). Why? Because the primary concern is not the weapons system, which you're focusing on, but rather the tank and using Caldari technology to make that extremely strong tank viable on the field of battle. All Amarrian "tank" ships have the cognitive dissonance problem in that they spend their own most precious resource(cap) wantonly to attempt to kill their opposition, and in doing so contribute to their own death. That's the reason we see so many autocannon Punisher/Maller/Prophecy setups - even with the crappy, crappy damage that unbonused ACs do, it's still better than losing the fight specifically because you went into the field with two counterproductive ideas. Part of the genius of the original post was that it was an acknowledgement of the reality of this situation, and worked with that reality to make a thematically clean setup.
The other point you're trying to put forward is that the ships should instead be revamped differently, with the idea that they are extremely cap-intensive shield-tanking laserboats. However, this would require much more significant rebalancing than the proposed changes, because in every instance slot setups would need to shift to make shield-tanking viable. Further, as Deva noted, there are already two classes of shield-tank + gunnery setups - the Moa -> Ferox -> Eagle -> Rokh line of Caldari ships, and the Minmatar line of inherently more powerful active shield tanks(BC -> Command Ship -> Tier 3 BS). Changing the Khanid designs to your suggestion would directly step on the toes of one of those two specialities, which is problematic from a design point of view. Whether or not the difference in weapons system is enough, the point remains that there are a distinct lack of possible alternate bonuses to incentivize shieldtanking - remember that a built-in amp is already taken by Minmatar, and a built-in Invuln(what would be the natural fit) is already taken by Caldari.
Well analysed... So how about giving it a shield cap usage reduction per lvl, it wont be as good of a tank as caldari but it will be cap efficient instead (something different simply).
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Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.10.03 22:39:00 -
[334]
Edited by: Kldraina on 03/10/2006 22:40:02 I still think the Sac should be 6-5-5 with -10% laser cap use, and 5% armor resists as cruiser bonus (same as now) plus 5% improved rof for missiles, and 5% shield resists as HAC skill bonus. Would make it extremely versatile, as well as tank oriented (it uses a tank ship as it's base). It would make the Sac a real wild card. |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.03 23:07:00 -
[335]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 03/10/2006 23:09:49 Imho shield+laser would be just as bad or even worse than what we have now. It would be too damn cap intensive, and people would probably use the medslots for EW and armortank anyway, much like it is done with a lot of Ravens these days. What we end up with is just bad ships again. (I also wonder where that 'shieldtank is better than armortank' notion comes from, in my experience that is only true for Gist tanks which I don't think should play a big role in balancing since theyre mainly used for PvE anyway).
And while we are at that, missile using armortanks would actually create some very viable alternatives for PvE against non-Blood/Sansha/Amarr enemies too which I am sure would please the quite voluminous PvE crowd, while shieldtanking lasers would most likely be completely worthless for PvE (and PvP as well I think).
Not to mention missiles are easier to learn from scratch than shieldtanking.
I am somehow getting the impression that the only thing really going against the missile+armortank idea is some sort of misplaced pride for using lasers. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Scordite
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Posted - 2006.10.04 03:55:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Kunming Amarr lack of versatility doesnt come for using lasers (though EM dmg is certainly a problem on its own) it comes from the lack of mid slots.
Incidentally, every Khanid ship has a decent number of mids considering they are amarr. 3 on both frigs, 4 on the sacri. This point aside, I'm not sure versatility on a single ship scale is a desireable goal. Jack-of-all-trade ships are, quite frankly, poo. Specialized ships work really well when they're capable of getting into the position where they can use their strenghts (pilgrim being the prime example). The kind of versatility we're talking about here is between the Khanid ships and the rest of amarr. Just like caldari have a rail-centric line of ships, and gallente have their drone bonus ships and their blasterboats.
Originally by: Kunming Lets look at the missile spamming, armor tanking Khanid boat: - cool I can armor tank.. which I could do before too and is less efficient than shield tanking! - great I spam missiles, can finally use explosive dmg (though I doubt its gonna get any other bonus than an EM missile bonus), other races can do that without having to train for a whole new skill-tree/weapon-system. - excellent I can spam missile, fit jammers in the mids and armor tank.. tough luck caldari can do that much better than you already with their own missile spammers.
- Yep, armor tank, just like before. Only now you have more cap to make it run, due to not flinging your lifeblood towards the enemy through your lasers. - Yep, can vary damage types. Keep in mind by the way, that the EM missile bonus is exclusively used for frigs, simply to reduce the lag caused by rocket spammers with RoF bonus. Larger ships can (and do, see phoon) have RoF launcher bonus (or damage, or missile velocity, or whatever you want to give it) without problems. - Here's where you're wrong. A caldari boat will never, ever armor tank as well as a HAC with tech2 resists, resist bonus from the ship, not using cap to power weapons, with twice the number of low slots. And that's what Khanid is about mainly, powerful tank. Who cares if the similar caldari missile spammers outdamage it? Who cares if the similar caldari missile boats have more ecm?
Originally by: Kunming Lets loot at the missile spamming, shield tanking Khanid boat: well whats the difference from caldari boats now? None, besides they can do it better than amarr anyway.
Which is why this isn't even an option. If people want shield+missiles they'll train caldari.
Originally by: Kunming Also, bandwagoning? hardly!, I fly ships for their sheer crappiness and win fights, just to play EVE in hard-mode, which gives me a higher sense of accomplishment than I would pull out a domi and jam/nos the hell outta ur soul..
Yeah, that was a low shot, sorry.
Originally by: Kunming I believe in racial warfare and concentrate on their design concepts, training for what they have to offer OFC..
Maybe the conservative extremist comment was closer to the mark then
----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead. |
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.10.04 12:55:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Kunming
Originally by: Wodin Drukvik ...
Well analysed... So how about giving it a shield cap usage reduction per lvl, it wont be as good of a tank as caldari but it will be cap efficient instead (something different simply).
nice to see you have calmed down a bit Kunming . I'd have to agree that shield and laser combo isn't very prudent, the cap requirements of both is high. Shield cap usage reduction could be interesting but it would have to be quite high to justify the laser-shield combo I'd think. And just because the current description of the Sacrilege mentions shields as the caldari influence doesn't mean it can't be changed. I'll remind you of "XXX has an unusually high structural integrity for a minmatar ship". In the end everyone(you too) so far in this thread has had the exact same goal, to improve the amarr. Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh) |
Scordite
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Posted - 2006.10.04 13:47:00 -
[338]
Hehe if the sacrilege was given a shield boost cap use reduction big enough to make it capable of running shield tank + lasers, and made a turret boat, everyone would fit projectiles on it.
----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead. |
Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.04 13:53:00 -
[339]
Originally by: Scordite Hehe if the sacrilege was given a shield boost cap use reduction big enough to make it capable of running shield tank + lasers, and made a turret boat, everyone would fit projectiles on it.
Actually i tought the same :?
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.10.04 14:12:00 -
[340]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Scordite Hehe if the sacrilege was given a shield boost cap use reduction big enough to make it capable of running shield tank + lasers, and made a turret boat, everyone would fit projectiles on it.
Actually i tought the same :?
Hadn't considered that... Though it makes sense. Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh) |
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Derrios
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.04 17:04:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Kenan Waroria Hulls: Malediction = T2 Executioner Vengeance = T2 Punisher Sacrilege = T2 Maller Damnation = T2 Prophecy
Very thoughtfull posts. I¦m a bit sceptical on the Sacrilege as it would have a nasty tank and DPS as an Cerberus, might be a bit to good. But a solution could be to give Cerberus a 5% shield resistance instead of Missile flight time
as in , "Hey wait caldari are overpowered they need to stay that way. "How dare u make another race's ship have comparable damage?" or "This ship would be even better than cerb damage and would unbalance the entire HAC line."
honestly amarr need some help. I don't see the issue with making ships in each race have comparable power. After all isnt that the definition of "balanced" ? -----------------------------------------------
Originally by: wierchas noobhunter hmm blowing ascn carebears in empire ?
can i join ?
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Kunming
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.04 17:34:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Scordite Hehe if the sacrilege was given a shield boost cap use reduction big enough to make it capable of running shield tank + lasers, and made a turret boat, everyone would fit projectiles on it.
Thats because Lasers are broken in their current state and in most cases projectiles give out better real DPS. But this is a completely different topic IMO, just would like you to remember the days when geddon was king! Balance between weapon systems are modified more often than ship stats and bonus', if suddenly lasers will be good again then you gonna cry you are stuck with missiles.
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Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents
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Posted - 2006.10.04 17:39:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Kunming AS A 3 YEAR OLD AMARR PILOT WITH OVER 10MIL SP IN GUNNERY I DONT WANT TO TRAIN FOR MISSILES AND WANT TO SEE ALL THOSE GUNNERY SPS HAVE A PURPOSE FIRST; IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND FOR U WHO WANT TO TURN AMARR INTO CALDARI? or should I also increase font size too?!
Missiles are not an amarr weapon
oh?
(Missiles are a weapon manufactured and used by all races) ----------
- Office Linebacker -
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Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.04 17:58:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Kunming if suddenly lasers will be good again then you gonna cry you are stuck with missiles.
Nop, cause still 50% of our ships will remain laser boats. Covering both fronts (missiles + lasers) is way better than putting all eggs in one basket (laser) :)
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.10.04 18:23:00 -
[345]
Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Scordite Hehe if the sacrilege was given a shield boost cap use reduction big enough to make it capable of running shield tank + lasers, and made a turret boat, everyone would fit projectiles on it.
Thats because Lasers are broken in their current state and in most cases projectiles give out better real DPS.
funnily enough, Ac's won't have better real dps against a dual eanm II + dcu tank. Because the Eanm and dcu all increase all resists equally the relative dps of all turret types doesn't change. Against base resists(which could as well be a dual eanm II with dcu tank doesn't matter) without any ship bonuses a Heavy pulse laser will do more dps then a 425mm autocannon. Heavy pulse II with MF: 18.221 dps (base resists assumed are 60 - 10 - 25 - 35) 425mm II with EMP: 17.04528 dps Of course i'm completely ignoring such things as grid use(425mm has relatively low grid and the pulse relatively high) and cap, but this is about dps not if it will fit.
Originally by: Kunming
But this is a completely different topic IMO, just would like you to remember the days when geddon was king! Balance between weapon systems are modified more often than ship stats and bonus', if suddenly lasers will be good again then you gonna cry you are stuck with missiles.
When ccp changed the sacrilege to a laser using ship, imo that was a mistake, they made the sacrilege too similar to the zealot. And in doing so it resulted in one being inferior to the other. Before the sacrilege had a niche role with its missiles and armor tank, though perhaps it didn't go far enough on this armor/missiles thing, resulting in a split-weapon ship(which aren't bad in and of themselves untill you add damage mods in the mix). Changing the few T2 ships that are Khanadian isn't going to make it essential for anyone to train missiles or shields. If you hate missiles noone is forcing you to fly a Khanid Sacrilege. Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh) |
Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.10.04 23:09:00 -
[346]
Edited by: Kldraina on 04/10/2006 23:10:44 If you don't want people fitting damage mods (and turning the Khanid ships into damage dealers) then a split weapon system would be preferable to a single weapon system. If both the Zealot and Sac are made damage dealers, then one will likely prove better than the other, and result in one of them rarely being used. |
Kunming
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.05 07:01:00 -
[347]
Originally by: Kldraina Edited by: Kldraina on 04/10/2006 23:10:44 If you don't want people fitting damage mods (and turning the Khanid ships into damage dealers) then a split weapon system would be preferable to a single weapon system. If both the Zealot and Sac are made damage dealers, then one will likely prove better than the other, and result in one of them rarely being used.
The difference between them would be like the difference between enyo and ishkur, they are simply different from each other but both use hybrids..
Zealot will be more like the vaga and the sac like muninn, it should only have 4 turrets and maybe a nos amount or S-Booster cap usage reduction bonus, with good CPU to fit shield stuff or EW.
No idea why you guys wanna go for missiles for versatility sake, the fact we know is it cant out DPS cerberus, so it will be even worse than what it is now..
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Serj Darek
Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.10.05 07:38:00 -
[348]
But can it out tank it?
Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes It contains my ingame name and corp ticker - Serj
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.05 08:57:00 -
[349]
Originally by: Kunming The difference between them would be like the difference between enyo and ishkur, they are simply different from each other but both use hybrids..
Zealot will be more like the vaga and the sac like muninn, it should only have 4 turrets and maybe a nos amount or S-Booster cap usage reduction bonus, with good CPU to fit shield stuff or EW.
No idea why you guys wanna go for missiles for versatility sake, the fact we know is it cant out DPS cerberus, so it will be even worse than what it is now..
Yeah great comparison. So everything would stay as is. Zealot = Vagabond = good, and Sacrilege = Muninn = bad. The missile-spamming armortanking Sacrilege would at least be something different. And what difference does it make for a Laser-fanatic whether the Sac is a weaker Zealot that he won't use (except for a stupid challenge to use a weak ship) and noone else will use, or something different that he won't use but that others might find very useful? Jealousy that people get rewarded for not wearing blinders and diversifying their skills?
It is really strange with some Amarr people. They cry because they are oh so handicapped (which does have some merit I will admit) but when a good change to that is suggested they balk as well.
As for Enyo and Ishkur, sure the Ishkur has turret hardpoints but its main feature is the drones. Noone is asking to remove the Sacs turret hardpoints either and for all I care the laser cap bonus can stay as well. But please give it more missile hardpoints and missile damage bonuses as elite ship bonuses so people more open-minded at least have an option to make it something else than a poor mans Zealot. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.11 12:31:00 -
[350]
Now that Tux is talking to us again, can we get the yellow stripe of acknowledgement pretty pleeeease! --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.10.11 13:11:00 -
[351]
Sure you can have a gold bar.
Changing the design of a whole tech 2 line isn't really something we do on a whim. I have already expressed my personal opinion on this and it was very positive (something about happy in the pants). I've been lobbying for it internally and so far people have liked the idea. It won't happen before Kali 1 though.
There is another thing with the current version of Sacrilege. It along with Deimos and Muninn are really difficult to fit, so I've messed a bit around with that.
Can we please stop bumping this now? In fact there is no need to bump anything if I don't see it straight away you can bet your arse that some other dev or a volunteer will see it and direct it to me or someone else that does these kind of things. _______________ |
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BadManEdmundo
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.11 13:56:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Tuxford There is another thing with the current version of Sacrilege. It along with Deimos and Muninn are really difficult to fit, so I've messed a bit around with that.
<3
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Stephar
The High Priest
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Posted - 2006.10.11 13:59:00 -
[353]
Thanks Tux!
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.11 14:00:00 -
[354]
Originally by: Tuxford
There is another thing with the current version of Sacrilege. It along with Deimos and Muninn are really difficult to fit, so I've messed a bit around with that.
How come ships gets released like that? Dont people notice that they are hard to fit when you create them?
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Tareen Kashaar
eXin Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.20 15:30:00 -
[355]
Wow, that's some really nice ideas! Kudos for thinking of all those points and writing it down :) And on my birthday, too! \o/
I would really love to see some changes like this. --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
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Destr0math
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Posted - 2006.10.20 16:01:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Tareen Kashaar Wow, that's some really nice ideas! Kudos for thinking of all those points and writing it down :) And on my birthday, too! \o/
I would really love to see some changes like this.
happy birthday tareen :)
I think its a good idea
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Goumindong
Amarr The Forsakened Companions Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.20 16:44:00 -
[357]
Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 27/06/2006 22:02:04
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: Sarmaul
Rule 1: Thou Shalt Armour Tank
Khanid ships are going to take their tank from their Amarrian heritage. These ships should be the hardest armour tankers in game, something that is pretty much garenteed by the next couple of rules.
But this contradicts the description of Khanid ships:
Quote: Developer: Khanid Innovation
Constantly striving to combine the best of two worlds, Khanid Innovation have utilized their Caldari connections to such an extent that the Kingdom's ships now possess the most advanced shield generators outside Caldari space, as well as fairly robust electronics systems.
Then make up some stupid news piece where Khanid decide it's time for a major revamp of their ships. While their at it, the Minmatar Republic can steal their shield technology and get a hitpoint boost :)
edit: I'm fully aware of the backstory for Khanid ships. My point is that it is a daft idea and armour tanking missile spammers is far better and more plausable than:
Boss Naka: "Ying, we need to make our ships different from our Amarrian counterparts."
Scientist Ying: "I know, as our guns use loads of cap, lets use a form of tanking that also uses loads of cap. The two go hand in hand! 4 midslots is more than enough to run a full shield tank. Just look at the heathen's Vagabond - if it doesn't need hardeners then neither do we."
Boss Naka: "Genius! You're promoted!"
Truthfully, i wouldnt mind laser/shield tank for Khanid ships.
So long as they hadnt fired the guy who suggested sticking a battleship sized reactor modifed to reduce recharge rate at the expense of max cap [for say a 120 second recharge on a 2400 cap reactor ;)] and mass.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.24 17:11:00 -
[358]
Sorry if this has already been said, but: Faction ships ARE NOT T2. They don't require T2 minerals to make, and came out before T2 was invented.
None of the ships should have bonuses for HAC, Command Ship, etc., skill per level, as its not in keeping with EVE convention of faction ships being T1.
Theme wise, though, I mostly aggree. -----------------------------------------------
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Deva Blackfire
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.24 17:22:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Patch86 Sorry if this has already been said, but: Faction ships ARE NOT T2. They don't require T2 minerals to make, and came out before T2 was invented.
None of the ships should have bonuses for HAC, Command Ship, etc., skill per level, as its not in keeping with EVE convention of faction ships being T1.
Theme wise, though, I mostly aggree.
Umm... Khanid ships are ONLY t2, so?
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Captin Biltmore
Damage Unlimited Inc Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.24 17:48:00 -
[360]
Originally by: Patch86 Sorry if this has already been said, but: Faction ships ARE NOT T2. They don't require T2 minerals to make, and came out before T2 was invented.
None of the ships should have bonuses for HAC, Command Ship, etc., skill per level, as its not in keeping with EVE convention of faction ships being T1.
Theme wise, though, I mostly aggree.
It helps when you post ballance changes about a particular ship (or ship class) that you have flown the ship. Since you obviously don't know what Khandid ships are...you obviously haven't flown them...so......
BTW:
Vengence (Khandid amarr assult frig) Sacralidge (Khandid amarr hac) Malediction (Khandid amarr interceptor) It's great being Amarr isn't it. Khanid MKII |
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