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Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:34:00 - [1] Edited by: Sarmaul on 14/06/2006 21:35:50 reserved, copy + paste disaster
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:35:00 - [2] Edited by: Sarmaul on 14/06/2006 21:36:03 reserved, copy + paste disaster
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:35:00 - [3] Edited by: Sarmaul on 14/06/2006 21:35:56 reserved, copy + paste disaster
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:36:00 - [4] Edited by: Sarmaul on 14/06/2006 21:36:10 reserved, copy + paste disaster
Cruz	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:39:00 - [5] Edited by: Cruz on 14/06/2006 21:43:53 Wow youve mostly read my mind, I Was just going to post nearly this same exact thread! :P I agree, lets make the khanid basterchild ships actually useful. Although tbh I was thinking sac with 4 launchers but 2 DPS bonuses so it doesn't directly compete with cerberus for missile dps and still can fit 2 turrets/NOS + drones. Rule 7 is stupid though, dont gimp the ship by making it a missile boat with a turret bonus.... And to be honest I dont think the sac is that bad dps wise anymore, however it would be better off as an armour tanking missile spewer. .................
Aakron	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:43:00 - [6] Sarmaul for president
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:44:00 - [7] Originally by: Cruz Edited by: Cruz on 14/06/2006 21:39:58 Wow youve mostly read my mind, I Was just going to post nearly this same exact thread! :P I agree, lets make the khanid basterchild ships actually useful. Although tbh I was thinking sac with 4 launchers but 2 DPS bonuses so it doesn't directly compete with cerberus for missile dps and still can fit 2 turrets/NOS + drones. Rule 7 is stupid though, dont gimp the ship by making it a missile boat with a turret bonus.... Consider #7 a suggestion rather than a rule then :). It allows the ships to dual-role effectively and generally any other bonus will make it overpowered.
Cruz	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:45:00 - [8] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Cruz Edited by: Cruz on 14/06/2006 21:39:58 Wow youve mostly read my mind, I Was just going to post nearly this same exact thread! :P I agree, lets make the khanid basterchild ships actually useful. Although tbh I was thinking sac with 4 launchers but 2 DPS bonuses so it doesn't directly compete with cerberus for missile dps and still can fit 2 turrets/NOS + drones. Rule 7 is stupid though, dont gimp the ship by making it a missile boat with a turret bonus.... Consider #7 a suggestion rather than a rule then :). It allows the ships to dual-role effectively and generally any other bonus will make it overpowered. Dual damage bonus would really be needed if you wanted missiles as primary weapon on the sacrilege, otherwise it will be doing similiar heck even less dps than a Caracal. .................
Kye Kenshin	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:49:00 - [9] I like these ideas. It would make the Khanid line alot more interesting.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Cruz Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Cruz Edited by: Cruz on 14/06/2006 21:39:58 Wow youve mostly read my mind, I Was just going to post nearly this same exact thread! :P I agree, lets make the khanid basterchild ships actually useful. Although tbh I was thinking sac with 4 launchers but 2 DPS bonuses so it doesn't directly compete with cerberus for missile dps and still can fit 2 turrets/NOS + drones. Rule 7 is stupid though, dont gimp the ship by making it a missile boat with a turret bonus.... Consider #7 a suggestion rather than a rule then :). It allows the ships to dual-role effectively and generally any other bonus will make it overpowered. Dual damage bonus would really be needed if you wanted missiles as primary weapon on the sacrilege, otherwise it will be doing similiar heck even less dps than a Caracal. Sacri with 5 launchers, 25% missile rof and 3 light drones does more damage than a cerberus with 5 launchers, 25% rof and 25% kinetic damage as it lacks a drone bay. Please check your numbers before swing about wild accusations like that. As I stated, the Cerberus can easily bump up it's DPS by fitting BCUs in it's lows, but the Sacri can realisticly spare 2 midslots for ECM - something the Cerberus can't do unless it sacrificies it's shield tank.
Cruz	Posted - 2006.06.14 21:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Cruz Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Cruz Edited by: Cruz on 14/06/2006 21:39:58 Wow youve mostly read my mind, I Was just going to post nearly this same exact thread! :P I agree, lets make the khanid basterchild ships actually useful. Although tbh I was thinking sac with 4 launchers but 2 DPS bonuses so it doesn't directly compete with cerberus for missile dps and still can fit 2 turrets/NOS + drones. Rule 7 is stupid though, dont gimp the ship by making it a missile boat with a turret bonus.... Consider #7 a suggestion rather than a rule then :). It allows the ships to dual-role effectively and generally any other bonus will make it overpowered. Dual damage bonus would really be needed if you wanted missiles as primary weapon on the sacrilege, otherwise it will be doing similiar heck even less dps than a Caracal. Sacri with 5 launchers, 25% missile rof and 3 light drones does more damage than a cerberus with 5 launchers, 25% rof and 25% kinetic damage as it lacks a drone bay. Please check your numbers before swing about wild accusations like that. As I stated, the Cerberus can easily bump up it's DPS by fitting BCUs in it's lows, but the Sacri can realisticly spare 2 midslots for ECM - something the Cerberus can't do unless it sacrificies it's shield tank. Nevermind your right. The difference in dps of a Cerb with 2 boni and a sac with 1 boni would be about 40dps. 3 t2 light drones give a good 50dps, plus a turret if need be. Cerb would still end up with more dps though since realistically cerb can fit 2 BCU IIs while Sac can't. But thats ok, the flexibility in ECM is worth it. Like I said though my initial idea was just to give the Sac 4 launchers but 2 bonuses. 4 Launchers + 2 NOS + 3 Light Drones :D .................
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Cruz Nevermind your right. I know :) Originally by: Aakron Sarmaul for president I gotta somehow get the changes pushed through first _________________________________ Make Khanid Useful!
Kitty O'Shay	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:05:00 - [13] Sounds good. Khanid ships need a rethink and missiles + armor would be the most logical combo of Amarr and Caldari tech. I'm moderately happy with the recent Vengeance changes, but would give them up to have the entire Khanid line revamped. -- Carebear > Why'd you do that? I just got that ship! Pirate > I just got that ammo, do you hear me whining?
Aemilus Brutus	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:08:00 - [14] Nice stuff, Amarr need some help, and this would fix a long standing problem.
Parallax Error	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:11:00 - [15] Bah! What a dirty and heretical twisting of proud Amarr designs. Pretty much spot on to what they should be!
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:19:00 - [16] Edited by: Aramendel on 14/06/2006 22:20:55 Fristly, nicely written post. Just a few comments: - As others said, rule #7 is kinda meh. Lasers are not that hot without a ROF or damage bonus on t2 ships, so that -50% cap use bonus would be essentially a wasted one. The difference in drone room or such balances the dps out, but I would still rather see a different bonus than -cap. Perhaps a utility one like missle speed? Even something not that useful like the target navigation prediction bonus of the nighthawk would be preferable to the cap bonus. - damnation specific: armor/shield is fine as it is now, and it's identical to the absolution, which represents the more traditionalistic design. What is confusing is "the most advanced shield generators available outside Caldari space" in the damnation description, which seems to be a standart text in all Khanid ships. CCP needs to stop this misconception, that particular aspect of Khanid ships has long ago proven to be stillborn. Also, it should not get a + dps bonus from the command ship skill - none of the fleet commands have one, only the field commands. The fleet command have all utility boni: vulture: +range, eos: + drone space (although it can boost it's dps with that, too, since it can carry a full swarm of heavies), claymore: tracking speed.
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:21:00 - [17] Sarmaul get the ** outta my head thats really similar to what i was thinking aswell, especially for the sacriledge so yes give those slavers armour tanking missilespammers Originally by:** Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:24:00 - [18] Sarmaul - plz: PIMP MY HERETIC!!!
Kenan Waroria	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:24:00 - [19] Hulls: Malediction = T2 Executioner Vengeance = T2 Punisher Sacrilege = T2 Maller Damnation = T2 Prophecy Very thoughtfull posts. I¦m a bit sceptical on the Sacrilege as it would have a nasty tank and DPS as an Cerberus, might be a bit to good. But a solution could be to give Cerberus a 5% shield resistance instead of Missile flight time -= Think negative and you¦ll get positive surprices =-
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:28:00 - [20] You've read my mind. Sarmaul wins EVE. --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Kenan Waroria Hulls: Malediction = T2 Executioner Vengeance = T2 Punisher Sacrilege = T2 Maller Damnation = T2 Prophecy Very thoughtfull posts. I¦m a bit sceptical on the Sacrilege as it would have a nasty tank and DPS as an Cerberus, might be a bit to good. But a solution could be to give Cerberus a 5% shield resistance instead of Missile flight time Sacri would need to use all lows for tank, where cerb can use lows for BCUs - so it is balanced this way IMO.
Audri Fisher	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:39:00 - [22] Nah: shield tank laser boats. That comment is gonna get me podded how many times?
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:42:00 - [23] Originally by: Audri Fisher Nah: shield tank laser boats. It would be good idea but... amarr use ONLY lasers atm - so they need some variety.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:45:00 - [24] I disapprove of this thread as it doesn't include any of: Projectile boosts Typhoon boosts Anti-Target Painter propoganda Long skill training whining General Minmatar whining Amarr nerfing Boobies Testy's Eve Blog, Updated 12/06/06
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.14 22:54:00 - [25] Happy now?
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.06.14 23:01:00 - [26] personally i would say t1 ships need balance before t2 ships, and since this is about the amarr amarr t1 cruseirs suck balls, take a look at them tux, i dont think ud find anyone that disagrees -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
Kenan Waroria	Posted - 2006.06.14 23:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Kenan Waroria Hulls: Malediction = T2 Executioner Vengeance = T2 Punisher Sacrilege = T2 Maller Damnation = T2 Prophecy Very thoughtfull posts. I¦m a bit sceptical on the Sacrilege as it would have a nasty tank and DPS as an Cerberus, might be a bit to good. But a solution could be to give Cerberus a 5% shield resistance instead of Missile flight time Sacri would need to use all lows for tank, where cerb can use lows for BCUs - so it is balanced this way IMO. Not really. You have 4 free mid slots on the Sacrilege compared to the Cerberus that need to use more than one of it¦s 5 mid-slots for Tanking (minimum 2 and then it¦s not really a tank) and mid-slots are more important than low-slots in PvP. Use non Kinteic missiles on the Cerberus and it¦s worse than Sacrilege. And besides: you don¦t need 5 slot tanking on the Sacrilege you can go with a 3 slot tanking and have two damagemods. Compare the ships with a 3 slot tanking and you will find that Sacrilege would be better. But I have to say that if the Sacrilege wouldn¦t get a CPU increment then it wouldn¦t be any problem as it would be horrible hard to fit (at least with T2 gear). -= Think negative and you¦ll get positive surprices =-
Karsus Maim	Posted - 2006.06.14 23:34:00 - [28] I really like these ideas, was going to post something much less sophisticated though. Instead of EM damage boost, since khanid are Caldari influenced perhaps a kinetic boost instead...or a mix between amarr and caldari and have the missile bonuses be thermal (the other amarr D-type)
Yakov Krasnov	Posted - 2006.06.14 23:40:00 - [29] I agree in principle that Khanid should have a unified style of shipbuilding, however, I'm a big fan of lasers and shield tanking, and they're the only ones that were likely to build ships that way. Maybe one division that does shield development and another that does missile development? I'd really like to see a Khanid-developed Apoc variant with lots of midslots and strong shields with boosted resists. ----------------------------------------------- Mercenary minded - I'll fly whatever works best.
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.14 23:45:00 - [30] Edited by: Aramendel on 14/06/2006 23:45:11 Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari It's a well thought-out post...but honestly, I think the Khanid ships should be shield-tanking laser boats. All of the Khanid Innovation ships say that they have the best shields outside Caldari space, and besides, we HAVE armor-tanked missile spammers anyway, that's what Sansha ships do...the only difference being that Sansha ships are faction, whereas Khanid ships are T2. So this wouldn't be COMPLETELY overlap...but I'd rather see NO overlap (because nobody shoots lasers and shield tanks) than some overlap. There's a reason noone does it. Shield tank = heavily cap reliant (either you screw your cap recharge for passive tanking or need to pull a lot of cap into active tanking since it is less capeffecient than armortanking) and lasers also = heavily cap reliant. You cannot really do both at once effeciently. And "there are faction ships which do that already" does not really count. Firstly, faction ships are way less common than normal ships, even t2 ones. Secondly, the sanshas are more like half laser, half missles, they are not missle specialized. And, thridly, you could use the same argument about the gurista faction ships - those are missle spammers/shield tankers as well. Both those and the normal caldari ships are still rather popular.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.14 23:47:00 - [31] Edited by: Sarmaul on 14/06/2006 23:47:47 Exactly - the whole point of the new ships I designed was to free up as much cap as possible for tanking and missiles are the perfect compliment to that (or projectiles ). Seeing as most Khanid ships have an abundance of launchers on them anyway and some have launcher bonuses, it seemed sensible to take them all the way. As for shield tanking, do you really want a shield tank that has 2 gaping resistance holes in it? It's like the Muninn and Vagabond trying to armour tank :/ edit: and btw, thanks for not flaming me to death :) _________________________________ Make Khanid Useful!
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.14 23:57:00 - [32] Originally by: Sarmaul Rule 7: Thou Shalt Try To Retain Thy's 50% Laser Cap Reduction Bonus Because some people are never happy, and most ships inherit that bonus anyway. I agree with most everything except this. It's just a waste, nobody is gonna use lasers on a Sac if these changes were to come in. I'm not too sure what should replace it, nothing too great. Perhaps a missile flight time or speed bonus. btw, welcome to teh dark side young sarmaulidious - _____
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.15 00:00:00 - [33] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sarmaul Rule 7: Thou Shalt Try To Retain Thy's 50% Laser Cap Reduction Bonus Because some people are never happy, and most ships inherit that bonus anyway. I agree with most everything except this. It's just a waste, nobody is gonna use lasers on a Sac if these changes were to come in. I'm not too sure what should replace it, nothing too great. Perhaps a missile flight time or speed bonus. btw, welcome to teh dark side young sarmaulidious It was more to satisfy the idiots who scream "I dun wanna use missiles on meh sac". Anyway, Rule #7 has been updated :). Darth Meridius, what would you have of me? _________________________________ Make Khanid Useful!
Ndoria	Posted - 2006.06.15 00:06:00 - [34] they should be drone ships, with missile hardpoints...
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.15 00:18:00 - [35] Originally by: Ndoria they should be drone ships, with missile hardpoints... I hear Gallente users want a more specialized role for their ships _________________________________ Make Khanid Useful!
Forsch	Posted - 2006.06.15 00:49:00 - [36] I didn't know you were into Khanid ships, Sarmaul. I support your ideas. It's what I was hoping for as well for quite some time. Heck, even Tuxford wants it to be like this. Not sure what's holding him back still. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2006.06.15 00:53:00 - [37] Originally by: Forsch Not sure what's holding him back still. rabble rabble rabble amarr are ballanced rabble rabble rabble amarr are lasers and tank rabble rabble rabble (put another whine here) rabble rabble rabble Guess this holds him back :) Also Sarmaul - any idea how to boost Heretic a bit? Give him some of your love ;p At least i could see how heretic could be when someoneone had an idea :)
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.15 01:34:00 - [38] i really like these ideas. also i support those people telling you the -50 cap reduction for energy turrets its just a waste :P
Hitomi Ayame	Posted - 2006.06.15 01:40:00 - [39] Wow... This is pretty much the best thread I think I've ever read in this section of the forums. Your proposed changes are well-thought, logical, and balanced. They make Khanid ships distinct and flavorful, and fill a nice gap in the Amarr lineup. I'd love to see Khanid ships take this route, tbh. The only thing I'm not sure of is the armor resistance bonus to the Malediction. It's an Interceptor, which means it shouldn't be getting hit, and if it is, the resistance bonus likely isnt going to save it. So if you're flying it right, the bonus is useless. If you're flying it wrong, the bonus is still (mostly) useless. Seems a little meh to me. Maybe give it a capacitor bonus? Helps with tackling, its primary role, but can still be useful to aiding the tank, if you want. - - -
Barron IX	Posted - 2006.06.15 01:50:00 - [40] Amarr is pure garbage ships Raven with half the skill can destroy a pathetic Apoc Tempest with quarter the skill can destroy a useless Apoc Amarr = EM Damage Who are we kidding? Amarr ships are great for mining. Thats it.
Udyr Vulpayne	Posted - 2006.06.15 01:58:00 - [41] first off i would like to state that amarrian missile ships would indeed be very nice. not only would those ships actually serve as something other than a weaker version of their carthum/viziam counterpart but they could actually help making amarr less predictable/counterable. however: dont stick +em missile damage bonuses on them as that's real pointless. if i wanted to do em damage i would fly one of the various amarr laser boats, not try and use missiles. dealing mainly em/therm is already one of the bigger weaknesses of amarrian ships in pvp. there's really no need to expand on that. instead of +10% to em missiles use +5% to all or at least one of the other damagetypes. actually if the laser cap use bonus is retained anyway just use this bonus-slot for a laser bonus. or some tanking/cap/support bonus. if all usefull bonuses are deemed too overpowering how about one of these instead of +em missile damage: + structure hp + cargo space + lockrange + sensorstrenght - smartbomb reactivation delay + tractor beam speed/range + shield hp (though that should really be avoided)
Wheya	Posted - 2006.06.15 02:02:00 - [42] Khanid Innovation definitly was on the right track when they first gave the Sacrilege a RoF bonus to missiles. I was one of the very few who always said missiles were nice while others asked for a laser boost. Since Khanid Innovation changed the design after lots of complaints to a laser boost the Sacrilege is selling way better even if it was nerfed from my point of view. Unfortunatly most amarrian brothers and sisters don't train missile skills. As a producer I say continue with lasers. As a pilot I would very much appreciate missiles. Currently I am using the profit I make from selling Sacrileges to buy Curse! I am not good at advertising my own products but I don't care. I would love to have the Sacrilege back as my preferred amarrian ship as it was in the past even if it would hurt my wallet. I let others use lasers against minnie t2 resistance. Same about Malediction and Vengeance. I like this ideas a lot. A EM missile damage boost is a bad idea, though. Amarrians would use missiles to do something different than EM damage.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.15 02:14:00 - [43] Originally by: Sarmaul It was more to satisfy the idiots who scream "I dun wanna use missiles on meh sac". Anyway, Rule #7 has been updated :). Darth Meridius, what would you have of me? Gank those who would disgrace the Sacrilege with turrets. or smack them with your cluesaber and tell them to use a Zealot - _____
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.06.15 02:21:00 - [44] i was one of those who jumped on the barricades screaming "OMG LASER DMG BONUS NOW!!!11!11" But only because the sacrilege sucked so much, but you know what, this is actually a good idea, but ONLY if ccp does it right. And not just some half ass fix.. The damnation could use some love at least tbh but overall, i like the idea.. /Mav Poverty
Methuselar	Posted - 2006.06.15 02:22:00 - [45] Edited by: Methuselar on 15/06/2006 02:23:08 Edited by: Methuselar on 15/06/2006 02:22:26 Nice ideas Why do you guyz still sticking on lasers? Why do you fear that nobody use laser on SAC? How many competive MALLER fit uses lasers? How many punisher? How many Apoc? How many Proph? The T1 hull of the Sac has already abandoned laser so why should it's T2 reclaim that? Most Amarrian have already abandoned laser on their punisher->maller->Apoc route. Ashamed but true.
Audri Fisher	Posted - 2006.06.15 02:27:00 - [46] I was kidding.... Just say no to lasers and shield tanking.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.15 02:29:00 - [47] Originally by: Audri Fisher I was kidding.... Just say no to lasers and shield tanking. Amen. Yeah, lets make a ship use the 2 most cap intensive modules you can put on it - _____
babylonstew	Posted - 2006.06.15 02:31:00 - [48] verywell thoguht out. i actually agree with most of your proposed changes except. +10% to missile damage on the mal isnt that twice what the crow gets?, wont it actually out damage a crow at interceptor lvl 4?, should really be +5% per lvl i think and, the im nto sure im happy with the sac outdamaging a cerb tbh, the cerb only does fairly decent damage with kinetic, with anything else its pretty poor. but, otherwise, very nicely done m8 Forum advice Linkage
Tel Bakhara	Posted - 2006.06.15 02:39:00 - [49] Another point: The true thing I believe taht makes a Sac can over tank a Zealot is not Armor but shield. Since Zealot have 2 more low slot, if u want to tank, a zealot can almost tank as good as the Sac: 25% and 2 adaptive nano don't have too much difference! So I don't like the idea to cut Sac's Shiled HP too much, A mix-tanked Sac with a shield mod or two a Sac can finally greatly out-tank a Zealot. What's your point of view on tanking guyz?
Cruz	Posted - 2006.06.15 03:24:00 - [50] Originally by: Tel Bakhara Another point: The true thing I believe taht makes a Sac can over tank a Zealot is not Armor but shield. Since Zealot have 2 more low slot, if u want to tank, a zealot can almost tank as good as the Sac: 25% and 2 adaptive nano don't have too much difference! So I don't like the idea to cut Sac's Shiled HP too much, A mix-tanked Sac with a shield mod or two a Sac can finally greatly out-tank a Zealot. What's your point of view on tanking guyz? What the heck are you talking about? Mixing tanks is stupid... Anyways, Zealot tanks better. Although sac gets 25% resist bonus, zealot gets 2 extra lowslots, Zealot can easily push 93% resists to all except 89% to thermal with faction gear. Along with fitting an 800mm plate + focused med pulse IIS for the win. Sac is the weaker tank imo. .................
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.06.15 03:42:00 - [51] I personally agree with everything in the post, except one part: the Vengence should still get the 4th low slot. Hope Tux sees this, though if he doesn't post that's definately understandable after the recent incident :l hugs Tux Gronsak is Tux's angry alt.
FaTA1	Posted - 2006.06.15 03:47:00 - [52] Edited by: FaTA1 on 15/06/2006 03:49:01 i agree they need change... but i personally think all the changes you're suggesting are asking for too much.. a possible i win ship types _________________________ I came, I saw, I posted
Xeris	Posted - 2006.06.15 03:48:00 - [53] This is a fantastic idea. I've had the same Sacrilege sitting in my hanger for well over a year now. The only time I ever fly it is when moving to a new base. A 5-launcher slot sac would be a very welcome change. /me waits for his T2 Khanid Apoc with 7 launchers, a rof bonus, 25% cap bonus and 8 low slots -insert evil laughter-
SolarKnight	Posted - 2006.06.15 04:18:00 - [54] Awesome Ideas, just hope this happnes :D The Light in the Darkness Origin Systems is Recruiting http://Origin.zapto.org
Cpt Abestos	Posted - 2006.06.15 04:44:00 - [55] Replace em missile dmg with rof and that would be much better since amaar usually get a rof bouns before a dmg one.
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.06.15 04:56:00 - [56] why would you give tehm laser cap bonuses if you want them to be missile boats?
Rockbox	Posted - 2006.06.15 05:11:00 - [57] I <3 Sarmaul! Spot on kiss me /me purses dirty Amarrian lips. Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Asuzke Mitsugi	Posted - 2006.06.15 05:23:00 - [58] I am Asuzke Mitsugi and I approve these Changes. However, would like Weirda to comment on them tho to give good insight into anything that might stand out tho.
Tel Bakhara	Posted - 2006.06.15 05:50:00 - [59] Originally by: Cruz Originally by: Tel Bakhara Another point: The true thing I believe taht makes a Sac can over tank a Zealot is not Armor but shield. Since Zealot have 2 more low slot, if u want to tank, a zealot can almost tank as good as the Sac: 25% and 2 adaptive nano don't have too much difference! So I don't like the idea to cut Sac's Shiled HP too much, A mix-tanked Sac with a shield mod or two a Sac can finally greatly out-tank a Zealot. What's your point of view on tanking guyz? What the heck are you talking about? Mixing tanks is stupid... Anyways, Zealot tanks better. Although sac gets 25% resist bonus, zealot gets 2 extra lowslots, Zealot can easily push 93% resists to all except 89% to thermal with faction gear. Along with fitting an 800mm plate + focused med pulse IIS for the win. Sac is the weaker tank imo. Man I know this is stupid but this might be the only way for Sac to overtank a Zealot right? So we all come to the point that those who believe Sac is a better tank than Zealot is truely stupid and the Sac is really a stupid ship atm, as the topic.
Shadowsword	Posted - 2006.06.15 06:13:00 - [60] /signed. I used almost exclusively lasers for more than a year, and a bowl of fresh air without needing months to respec to another race would be nice. And right now Khanid ships lack in personality. ------------------------------------------ Don't make War, War is messy. Make love instead, so your kids will do the War part for you.
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.06.15 06:26:00 - [61] It would be a unique role in Eve. It would fix the balance (ie pointlessness) of Khanid ships. It would finally give Amarr some variety. It would make Tux happy in the pants. Well that's that. All boxes checked correctly. Tux, make it so! Excellent post Sarmaul. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 07:04:00 - [62] Meridius wasn't kidding about you being on Team Amarr. Still, good changes, and well written. I'm not sure on the 10% cap thing, maybe replace it with 10% flight time for all the larger ships, and something else for the malediction (not sure exactly what to do with that)
Marnix	Posted - 2006.06.15 07:45:00 - [63] Finally someone steps up to the plate and takes over my position as Amarr-whiner. Thanks mate, im off. btw, aproved of all ideas[/i]
Dorian Mystos	Posted - 2006.06.15 07:58:00 - [64] I would like to propose rule #8. Thou shalt increase the cargo hold size of Khanid ships over their tech 1 counterparts. Missile ships generally have larger cargo holds than ships that use turrets as a primary weapons system, and Amarr ships have the smallest cargo holds already. That isnÆt too much of an issue considering most lasers users wonÆt carry more than 16 crystals in the hold at any time, but filling the cargo hold with missiles makes it a little painful. ItÆs just one of the things that bugs me when I look at a Khanid ship. On of the many things. Great ideas.
Morkus Rex	Posted - 2006.06.15 08:08:00 - [65] Well written! I sign this post Originally by: Aakron Sarmaul for president _____________________________________________ Our users will know fear and cover before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
Kel Dario	Posted - 2006.06.15 08:42:00 - [66] /me loves Sarmaul Finally a thread with good ideas about how to make those (yuk) bastard khanid ships useful. The new Sacrilege a missile spamming armor tanker yes please! :D Btw, an idea of a new bonus for the sacri: "5% armor repair per level of heavy assault ship bonus". Not to replace the resistance bonus but to complement it so the ship becomes an even better armor tanker. Or would that overpower it? Kel
Spartan239	Posted - 2006.06.15 08:51:00 - [67] Originally by: HippoKing Meridius wasn't kidding about you being on Team Amarr. Still, good changes, and well written. I'm not sure on the 10% cap thing, maybe replace it with 10% flight time for all the larger ships, and something else for the malediction (not sure exactly what to do with that) Think sarm is on team balance tbh, khanid ships need a role and this looks very sexy Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 08:54:00 - [68] Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: HippoKing Meridius wasn't kidding about you being on Team Amarr. Still, good changes, and well written. I'm not sure on the 10% cap thing, maybe replace it with 10% flight time for all the larger ships, and something else for the malediction (not sure exactly what to do with that) Think sarm is on team balance tbh, khanid ships need a role and this looks very sexy yeah, i know. it was just a joke. It does look good
Spartan239	Posted - 2006.06.15 08:56:00 - [69] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: HippoKing Meridius wasn't kidding about you being on Team Amarr. Still, good changes, and well written. I'm not sure on the 10% cap thing, maybe replace it with 10% flight time for all the larger ships, and something else for the malediction (not sure exactly what to do with that) Think sarm is on team balance tbh, khanid ships need a role and this looks very sexy yeah, i know. it was just a joke. It does look good ja but sarm on team ammar is as wrong as meridius being on team minimatar Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.15 08:59:00 - [70] Originally by: Spartan239 ja but sarm on team ammar is as wrong as meridius being on team minimatar Imagine that
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.15 09:39:00 - [71] Originally by: Cpt Abestos Replace em missile dmg with rof and that would be much better since amaar usually get a rof bouns before a dmg one. Like I stated, CCP refuses to put rate of fire bonuses on frigates due to the amount of lag they cause hence the EM missile damage. Of course, you could try and get CCP to change the missile bonus system so missile damage bonuses apply for all damage types, but that's a topic for another thread. Originally by: babylonstew +10% to missile damage on the mal isnt that twice what the crow gets? Crow: "Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage per level" Originally by: everyone blah blah blah laser cap bonus Like I said, it was designed to keep everyone happy and not to remove the bonus progression present in HACs and Command Ships. However, seeing as CCP did this with the Nighthawk, Tuxford might be willing to do away with the cap bonuses. If not, then bad luck :) Originally by: Spartan239 Think sarm is on team balance tbh, khanid ships need a role and this looks very sexy It's "Team Minmatar: Balance Police" Originally by: babylonstew the im nto sure im happy with the sac outdamaging a cerb tbh, the cerb only does fairly decent damage with kinetic, with anything else its pretty poor. It's damage is not poor. In fact, the Cerberus's heavy missile damage (a long-ranged weapon) is balanced against other HAC's close-ranged weapons. This is due to the lack of assault missiles - something that is going to be changed soon. And like I said, the Cerb can spare low-slots for damage modules while the Sacri can't (armour tank), but the Sacri can spare midslots for ewar while the Cerb can't (shield tank). Of course you can run both ships without a tank, but then you're going to die rather quickly :). Quote: but i personally think all the changes you're suggesting are asking for too much.. a possible i win ship types Not really - none of the ships are out-right damage ships they are just incredibly hard to kill. Their slow speed prevents them from gaining Vagabond or Crow-like immortality (not even the Malediction as it can't use rockets outside web range) and it brings most of them back into the league of the big boys. I would be far more fearful of an Ishkur/Ishtar/Vagabond/Jaguar then the new Khanid ships tbh. Originally by: Dorian Mystos Thou shalt increase the cargo hold size of Khanid ships over their tech 1 counterparts. Agreed. Originally by: Btw, an idea of a new bonus for the sacri: "5% armor repair per level of heavy assault ship bonus". Or would that overpower it? Overpowered. The Sacri's natural resists plus a midslot for a cap injector plus 25% extra resistances + 25% armor repair effectiveness = win. Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Spartan239 ja but sarm on team ammar is as wrong as meridius being on team minimatar Imagine that Hey you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours _________________________________ Make Khanid Useful!
Meridius	Posted - 2006.06.15 09:45:00 - [72] Originally by: Sarmaul It's "Team Minmatar: Balance Police" It's spelt Amarr, not Minmatar - _____
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.06.15 09:46:00 - [73] Very nicely written Sarmaul, I wholeheartedly agree xcept for my wish for the Veng to keep the 4th low it is getting currently. Also I would really like a set of Khanid faction ships. E.g. Khanid Navy Inquisitor, Khanid Navy Omen, Khanid Navy Armageddon. Finally something for us neglected Khanid mission runners to look forward to. And at least for the Omen, the model already exists too! Please Tux, this finally seems something us forum *****s pretty much unanimously agree upon, and you even said you want it yourself. Now make it so! --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.15 09:50:00 - [74] Edited by: Sarmaul on 15/06/2006 09:51:23 Gah I forgot that the assault ships are getting more slots. The Veng should definatly get the extra low it's getting now (and would round it off nicely). I've updated the OP with it. _________________________________ Make Khanid Useful!
Frools	Posted - 2006.06.15 09:59:00 - [75] awesome, if the malediction was like that it might make me train rockets and standard missiles above level 1
Calmdown	Posted - 2006.06.15 10:15:00 - [76] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sarmaul It's "Team Minmatar: Balance Police" It's spelt Amarr, not Minmatar Maybe we should make the balance police a multi-racial organisation. As long as that wouldn't mean me training another skill.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.15 10:17:00 - [77] Edited by: Sarmaul on 15/06/2006 10:19:53 Originally by: Calmdown hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!! pssst, post with your alt _________________________________ Make Khanid Useful!
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.06.15 10:23:00 - [78] Originally by: Sarmaul pssst, post with your alt Oops. THE ABOVE IS NOT THE POST YOU ARE LOOKING FOR! Testy's Blog, Updated 15/06! Name Team Minmatar, Win A Vaga!
Thalera Saldana	Posted - 2006.06.15 10:40:00 - [79] Originally by: Sarmaul It's "Team Minmatar: Balance Police" [) TBH I think Sarmaul has just won his own/Testy's contest in the General forums to name the Minnie discussion group. Wish I'd thought of it Thal
wierchas noobhunter	Posted - 2006.06.15 10:43:00 - [80] Sarmaul wins eve ! totaly agree with all \0/ join soar angelic
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.06.15 10:43:00 - [81] Originally by: Thalera Saldana Originally by: Sarmaul It's "Team Minmatar: Balance Police" [) TBH I think Sarmaul has just won his own/Testy's contest in the General forums to name the Minnie discussion group. Wish I'd thought of it Thal Err, he's quoting my sig :P Testy's Blog, Updated 15/06! Name Team Minmatar, Win A Vaga!
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2006.06.15 10:46:00 - [82] It's not often that I congratulate a Minnie, but well done to the Brutor in the sunglasses. I like these changes. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2006.06.15 11:02:00 - [83] Excellent and well thought out changes. The fine details need tweaking, but in general this would give the whole Khanid line a new and interesting "feel", make them all useful, and above all give Amarr ships something else than the boring ol' armor tank + lasers thing. I remember Tux in general also liking the "armor tanking missile spammer" idea in another thread, so I guess there's some hope. The addition of a totally new group of missile using ships into the game would also be nice. Nowadays there's very little choice for missile users in general, as evidenced by the huge popularity of the Raven, Crow etc. More choices into the game, especially ones that don't follow the Caldari missiles + shields formula, is doubleplusgood.
Royaldo	Posted - 2006.06.15 11:03:00 - [84] most of the ideas look good. /me starts training missile skills p.s. while you're at it, please get ccp to fix the retribution(-1 high slot +1 medium slot) and the coercer(again needs a medium slot). oh and apoc needs something, maller/omen/augoror.. and make ccp add the missing frig.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.15 11:12:00 - [85] come on tuxford, let yourself be happy in the pants for once _________________________________ Make Khanid Useful!
Alpdruck	Posted - 2006.06.15 11:17:00 - [86] Impressive.
Forsch	Posted - 2006.06.15 11:22:00 - [87] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Also I would really like a set of Khanid faction ships. E.g. Khanid Navy Inquisitor, Khanid Navy Omen, Khanid Navy Armageddon. Finally something for us neglected Khanid mission runners to look forward to. And at least for the Omen, the model already exists too! Indeed! That should be next on the list. The Khanid Omen is such a beautiful ship: clicky This one as an armor tanking missile boat would be awesome! A call for khanid faction ships: here Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.15 11:32:00 - [88] Originally by: Kamikaaazi ok, if CCP boosts damnation, it better fix nighthawk/vulture before that. Same with malediction and raptor. Then with sacrilege and eagle. Lets not forget vengeance hawk combo. The Damnation isn't getting changed until assault missiles make it in. The Ealge is fine. The Hawk will be fine after the patch. The Raptor sucks, but tbh I need some easy prey in my Claw so I won't be asking for it to be boosted any time soon :) Make Khanid Useful!
Mihoshi Tsunami	Posted - 2006.06.15 13:53:00 - [89] Instead of the 50% Laser Cap Reduction Bonus how about a, Cap bonus per lvl Or neutralizer & nostrafu like the recon ships. Or another missile bonus likes a guided missile bonus. Or Drone bay increase per lvl or specific drone skill like damage or rof. Maybe farfetched HP increases per lvl? Or auto repair to certain percentage that has been mentioned in another forum Idea comes from the C&C Russia mammoth tank.
Mag's	Posted - 2006.06.15 14:04:00 - [90] Nice post Sarmaul, and I have to agree with all of your suggestions. Also I would say remove the 50% laser bonus for something else.
R31D	Posted - 2006.06.15 15:39:00 - [91] Love these ideas - especially the Malediction Free bumpage for all
Blind Man	Posted - 2006.06.15 15:44:00 - [92] Originally by: Dark Shikari You've read my mind. Sarmaul wins EVE. yes. i want a damnation like that
Jon Xylur	Posted - 2006.06.15 15:52:00 - [93] Missile spamming armour tankers please! Missiles shouldn't be a Caldari onyl thing (if other races had em too theyd be more likely to get balanced . And I like Khanid ship's looks and wish they didn't suck) Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, and not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Astrum Ludus	Posted - 2006.06.15 15:56:00 - [94] Originally by: Kamikaaazi ok, if CCP boosts damnation, it better fix nighthawk/vulture before that. Same with malediction and raptor. Then with sacrilege and eagle. Lets not forget vengeance hawk combo. Why before exactly? Because you're Caldari and if someone gets something before you do (or heaven forbid something better) you'll quite teh game?
Ather Ialeas	Posted - 2006.06.15 17:20:00 - [95] I'm just jumping the bandwagon here and saying that this is definately something I want to see. The current Khanid ships are like a bunch of conmen would've gotten a government behind them to fund their "radical" design ideas with approx. fourty-eight gazillion ISKs and then just slapped together a few piece of girders, salvaged enemy ship hulls and current Amarr ships and then given those to the government right after running to hide at some uncharted Minmatar planet/moon deep in some deserted system. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Weirda	Posted - 2006.06.15 18:08:00 - [96] Originally by: Dark Shikari You've read my mind. Sarmaul wins EVE. agreed. __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
xenorx	Posted - 2006.06.15 18:19:00 - [97] SIGNED! (Sarmaul you need to take up the Retribution cause too.) No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Audri Fisher	Posted - 2006.06.15 18:20:00 - [98] Originally by: Kamikaaazi ok, if CCP boosts damnation, it better fix nighthawk/vulture before that. Same with malediction and raptor. Then with sacrilege and eagle. Lets not forget vengeance hawk combo. Lets see STFU. although an eagle with 5 turret 2 missle slots would be nice. However, it would be nice, while Kahndid ships are next to worthless atm. (along with the extra PG to fit another rail on)
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.15 18:27:00 - [99] Originally by: xenorx SIGNED! (Sarmaul you need to take up the Retribution cause too.) High -> Med, problem solved. Make Khanid Useful!
Buraken v2	Posted - 2006.06.15 18:27:00 - [100] Edited by: Buraken v2 on 15/06/2006 18:27:52 Originally by: Kenan Waroria Hulls: Malediction = T2 Executioner Vengeance = T2 Punisher Sacrilege = T2 Maller Damnation = T2 Prophecy By "Hull" he means structure hp genius I very much like these ideas from the OP, would bring some very very intresting setups to the battlefield, and finaly amarr pilots can do some expl dmg hopefully Originally by: Mang0o 200m sexy ill bid on yours becouse you are so cute
Blind Man	Posted - 2006.06.15 18:52:00 - [101] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: xenorx SIGNED! (Sarmaul you need to take up the Retribution cause too.) High -> Med, problem solved. only problem with that is the 5th high slot is useless anyways beacause you can never fit anything there
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:02:00 - [102] Good stuff, now change this a bit snappy for a change CCP!
Kenan Waroria	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:16:00 - [103] Originally by: Buraken v2 Edited by: Buraken v2 on 15/06/2006 18:27:52 Originally by: Kenan Waroria Hulls: Malediction = T2 Executioner Vengeance = T2 Punisher Sacrilege = T2 Maller Damnation = T2 Prophecy By "Hull" he means structure hp genius I very much like these ideas from the OP, would bring some very very intresting setups to the battlefield, and finaly amarr pilots can do some expl dmg hopefully If you look on the description for Sacrilege it says at the top "Hull: Maller Class" so by that I guessed he was looking for the T1 ship that the T2 was based on. -= Think negative and you¦ll get positive surprices =-
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:19:00 - [104] Originally by: Kenan Waroria Originally by: Buraken v2 Edited by: Buraken v2 on 15/06/2006 18:27:52 Originally by: Kenan Waroria Hulls: Malediction = T2 Executioner Vengeance = T2 Punisher Sacrilege = T2 Maller Damnation = T2 Prophecy By "Hull" he means structure hp genius I very much like these ideas from the OP, would bring some very very intresting setups to the battlefield, and finaly amarr pilots can do some expl dmg hopefully If you look on the description for Sacrilege it says at the top "Hull: Maller Class" so by that I guessed he was looking for the T1 ship that the T2 was based on. Sorry for the confusion - I was on about structure hitpoints, not the ship model Make Khanid Useful!
Deadeye Dave	Posted - 2006.06.15 19:29:00 - [105] I love the idea about the Khanid Ships being Armor Tanking Missile Boats. Great post and I like the improvements you have suggested.
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2006.06.15 20:38:00 - [106] Great ideas. Until these are coming in, I play with my gimped armor tanking laser sac which is useless for pvp :( Ship lovers click here
Evil Sulu	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:10:00 - [107] /signed Make Khanid ships more than just clutter in the market window. I still can't believe Sarmaul is a closet Amarr booster - good post, way to go. ------------- Info: Recruitment or #KhanidBlood
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:24:00 - [108] These changes can easily make it in the next patch, only 5 days to go =)
Forsch	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:32:00 - [109] Originally by: Sirial Soulfly These changes can easily make it in the next patch, only 5 days to go =) lol I wish. Tuxford most likely doesn't have enough pants. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Rockbox	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:45:00 - [110] Yeah Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:48:00 - [111] I'll donate 100 isk to the 'More pants for Tux' fund! --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Rockbox	Posted - 2006.06.15 21:51:00 - [112] Lets get him Dockers Nova Satar > i'll be waiting Verone > ♥
Kel Dario	Posted - 2006.06.16 09:41:00 - [113] I have refused to fly the Sacrilege after that dev's (I'm not gonna name him) attempt of fixing the ship, so my memory may be wrong but I'm quite sure it's agility is worse then a Zealots. Also it has less armour then a Zealot yet it's signature radius is bigger. It should be lowerd from 140 to 120. Can someone tell me if the Damnation also need less signature or if it's fine? I think there was a thread about battlecruisers has to high signature but I don't know if it got any attention from the higher powers. Kel
LukAsh	Posted - 2006.06.16 11:20:00 - [114] Great ideas, those Khanid ships would finally get a purpose and a role in EVE if this changes were done. I really hope someone from CCP reads this thread. ___
xenorx	Posted - 2006.06.16 13:50:00 - [115] Originally by: Rockbox Lets get him Dockers Stain resistance for the win! No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.16 17:17:00 - [116] bumpadoodle Make Khanid Useful!
Ron Lycan	Posted - 2006.06.16 23:22:00 - [117] Originally by: In a Previous Post "the most advanced shield generators available outside Caldari space" Stupid suggestion but. What if you gave all the Khanid Ships a natural Shield recharge then all the other ships have, especially caldari? Currently Caldari can Shield tank, and the idea isn't to make these Khanid ships to shield tank but for that description the Devs gave them. Just make it so its an annoying way to get past the super low amount of shield HP by the Khanid's constant Advanced Shield Generators with recharging shields. Its mean't to be a way to prolong tank, not to MAIN tank it. Just an idea.
Rabid Sheep	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:09:00 - [118] Edited by: Rabid Sheep on 17/06/2006 18:10:38 SIGNED! Absolutely fantastic idea! [edit: where is my portrait? not that I like it a lot, but it's definitely better then a "!"..]
Wizie	Posted - 2006.06.17 18:14:00 - [119] Sarm, get a life m8. I did, and just realised, it blows. Anyhow, good post. Khanid fix is badly needed. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Stamm	Posted - 2006.06.17 19:39:00 - [120] I have to agree with the stuff here, in general. However, I have to disagree with split bonuses. I think you have to look at a weapon cap bonus as the same as a damage bonus, as it allows you to use that weapon better. So I think it's a split laser and missile bonus. Which I don't like. If these are to be missile ships, then take the laser cap use off them and give them a more appropriate bonus. The ship you missed out was the Tier 3 Amarr Battleship. If it turns out to be a laser boat with a resistance bonus, then really, what use is the Apoc? The extra cap on the Apoc is used for tanking, so you'll end up with an Apoc and a bigger and better Apoc. So I suggest the Tier 3 BS is a Khanid ship (Carthum already have 2 BSs out there), and it gets a resists bonus, and a ROF bonus, and is a missile boat (and yes, it WILL outperform a raven, but it is a Tier 3 battleship). Either that or redesign the Apocalypse. Apart from that I have to agree with these changes, although a resists bonus on an interceptor is of questionable use. Not being an interceptor pilot I don't want to comment too much, but any time I fight interceptors they either don't get hit, and live, or they start getting hit and have to flee or die.
Rift Scorn	Posted - 2006.06.18 14:24:00 - [121] Edited by: Rift Scorn on 18/06/2006 14:24:26 Sarmual! That was a brilliant post! Kudos man I've started a Khanid alt and the little and hidden RPer in me was going to pretty much go with Khanid ships only. I've always liked the dual weapons thing a combo of turrets and siles, and what you've just said in that mammoth post pretty much sums up what a lot of people are hoping will happen to Khanid ships. You didn't mention the CPU/PG issues, but tbh that will be adjusted/compensated if changes that you've said are implemented. You said about the vengeance getting 'tankier', i think thats the only thing i have a slight issue with. I thought one assault ship was meant to become more of a heavy tackler, somthing akin to a ceptor on steroids than a 'tank'. So, the Jaguar for minnie, the Vengeance for Amarr, etc, etc. Correct me if i'm wrong, i can't for the life of me find the blog and i do drink a lot. Your friendly clone activation expert, free of service to the eve community since '03!
Double TaP	Posted - 2006.06.18 14:39:00 - [122] I didnt read through the whole thread, just the OP, but I'd like to say that it would be nice to see more hybrid ships about. I've trained pure Caldari and have insane missile skills, and now I might be able to try other ships out. Now not only can I wait to try my new hawk, I can't wait to try the phoon! Would be nice to train amarr cruiser V and be okay in a sacrilige as well.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.18 16:11:00 - [123] Originally by: Wizie Sarm, get a life m8. I did, and just realised, it blows. Anyhow, good post. Khanid fix is badly needed. Thank you :) As for getting a life, I'm currently trying to get rid of mine so I have some more time to play :( Originally by: Rift Scorn You said about the vengeance getting 'tankier', i think thats the only thing i have a slight issue with. I thought one assault ship was meant to become more of a heavy tackler, somthing akin to a ceptor on steroids than a 'tank'. So, the Jaguar for minnie, the Vengeance for Amarr, etc, etc. Correct me if i'm wrong, i can't for the life of me find the blog and i do drink a lot. To be honest, I think it's painfully clear that the role of proper tackling should be left to interceptors and their t1 counterparts, while assault ships should concentrate on tanking and anti-ceptor work. The longer these ships can survive the longer they can do their role. The Jaguar can tackle, the Ishkur can almost tackle, and the rest are generally pretty poor at it compared to ceptors or those 2 assault frigs. As for the blog, IIRC Assault Ships were introduced before I started playing so I have no idea either :) Make Khanid Useful!
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.18 16:28:00 - [124] Heretic should get some love too
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.18 16:33:00 - [125] Originally by: Sniser Heretic should get some love too I'm sorry I didn't look at every god-damned Amarr ship to see which ones where made by Khanid. Seeing as gallente hate their split weapon abomination, turn the Heretic into a missile spamming armour tanker and give the Eris oddles of turrets and turret-related bonuses. Make Khanid Useful!
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.18 16:41:00 - [126] Originally by: Sniser Heretic should get some love too i think Heretics if fine tbh, versatile slot layout and only 1 less launcher hardpoint than its caldari counterpart you could argue tho that it should get the same amount of launcher hardpoints than caldari (+1), as em missile dmg overall is worse than kinetic dmg but its doing its job as interdictor fine Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.18 16:43:00 - [127] Edited by: Sniser on 18/06/2006 16:44:11 Originally by: Tiuwaz Originally by: Sniser Heretic should get some love too i think Heretics if fine tbh, versatile slot layout and only 1 less launcher hardpoint than its caldari counterpart you could argue tho that it should get the same amount of launcher hardpoints than caldari (+1), as em missile dmg overall is worse than kinetic dmg but its doing its job as interdictor fine if you use more missile than turret why do you want the tracking also the cap reduction? it would be much better rocket velocity or light precision like caldari ship i vote for armor resist and light precision missile or armor resist and rocket velocity yes gallente one sucks too :S
CardboardSword42	Posted - 2006.06.18 17:45:00 - [128] Fantastic ideas, would be a nice change of pace from flying caldari ships I'm Ex-Biomass, that makes me cool But now I'm KOS and it's all about the manlove
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2006.06.18 23:00:00 - [129] Pretty much summed it up Sarmaul. Khanid ships have the hackneyed expression, "Jack of all trades master of none" written all over their shiny black asses. A little pinch of this, a little bit of that; before long you have an over-egged slop on your hand. Everyone knows that specialisation is king in EVE. Khanid ships simply don't work because they don't offer enough advantages in specific fields to make them a worthy choice over their laser 'n' armour obsessed counter-parts. A cap-efficient armour tanking missile spitter would be something vastly different from the norm, incredibly difficult to kill in certain situations but also a lot of fun to fly. It would also require less skill training and would complement the existing line of Amarr ships well.
Agama	Posted - 2006.06.19 03:22:00 - [130] Great suggestions Sarmaul. The Khanid ships would be great to be basically armour tanked missle boats. And it gives the Caldari pilots something else to cross over into (if they wanted). As it stands the current Khanid ships are largely crap. HUZZAH for Sarmaul TUX-> Please read this.....and make it happen. You know you want to. 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.19 08:50:00 - [131] Originally by: Agama TUX-> Please read this.....and make it happen. You know you want to. yes come on tux, make yourself happy in the pants like we all want you yo be \o/ Make Khanid Useful!
Jon Xylur	Posted - 2006.06.19 09:04:00 - [132] They should allso boost those horrible, horrible Roden ships like the Ares if they boosted Khanid. Eighter more ships like Enyo or full missile baots! Down with split-weaponed abominations! Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, and not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.19 09:09:00 - [133] Originally by: Jon Xylur They should allso boost those horrible, horrible Roden ships like the Ares if they boosted Khanid. Eighter more ships like Enyo or full missile baots! Down with split-weaponed abominations! quit derailing my thread Make Khanid Useful!
Dano Sarum	Posted - 2006.06.19 11:24:00 - [134] I dont get why Khanid should have the BEST armor tank ingame, that should be purely for True Amarriam ships. Give em ok ISH shields too, so gimp them a bit. Really they dont need to excell at everything, they're hybrids.
Stamm	Posted - 2006.06.19 11:35:00 - [135] Originally by: Dano Sarum I dont get why Khanid should have the BEST armor tank ingame, that should be purely for True Amarriam ships. Give em ok ISH shields too, so gimp them a bit. Really they dont need to excell at everything, they're hybrids. So you're saying, that for no reason these ships shouldn't be the best armour tanks in the game, and that they should suck, because, erm, you want them gimped. Ok, you've convinced me there...
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.19 11:37:00 - [136] Originally by: Dano Sarum ..Really they dont need to excell at everything, they're hybrids. Aka they SHOULD be useless? King in EVE is specialisation, a ship which does not excell in anything is not used. Being a hybrid is no advantage in EVE, to the contrary.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.19 14:34:00 - [137] Originally by: Dano Sarum they're hybrids. In this game, if your ship doesn't excel at something it's generally useless. Khanid is definatly not the exception. Make Khanid Useful!
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.06.19 14:36:00 - [138] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 19/06/2006 14:35:55 Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Dano Sarum they're hybrids. In this game, if your ship doesn't excel at something it's generally useless. Khanid is definatly not the exception. QFT:The Typhoon. btw, read my sig, kthx. Sarmaul, Naughty Boy, Weirda, Kaylana, readme please :)
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.19 14:41:00 - [139] LOL, I didn't copy the address properly and tried sending a mail to "[email protected]". Was going to laugh at your email address before realising what I did... Make Khanid Useful!
Stamm	Posted - 2006.06.19 14:46:00 - [140] Originally by: Sarmaul LOL, I didn't copy the address properly and tried sending a mail to "[email protected]". Was going to laugh at your email address before realising what I did... Team Amarr is going to infiltrate it, and suggest target painter bonuses, and point out how it's so good to be versatile and have missiles and guns on a BS :)
Khadur	Posted - 2006.06.19 15:59:00 - [141] /Signed Anything for brother Sarmaul
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.06.19 20:22:00 - [142] Variety. Usefull variety. Other races have it, Amarr need it. Gallente - Drone boats and Blaster boats. Armor tankers. 'Nuff said Caldari - Missile boats and Rail boats. Shield tankers. Matari - Projectile boats with missiles, and speed ships. Can both armor and shield tank. Amarr - Laser boats and, uh...laser boats. Armor tank. The only niche left really is Armor tanking Missile boats. Which is a bonus rp wise since Khanid ships are a fusion of Caldari and Amarrian tech. For the love of the emperor dont make shield tanking laser boats as they would be rediculously non-functional due to cap. @Sarmaul - the more I research this, the less I think a laser bonus is appropriate even though it may be helpful sometimes. If we look at the "equivalent" boats, the railboats of the Caldari line, we see that none get a split weapon bonus to both missiles and rails. In light of this trend, I think some sort of an armor tanking bonus (personally I am partial to the repper effectiveness bonus similar to a brutix) or 2 missile bonuses would be appropriate. Please just give them an ROF bonus as an having the only missile bonus be EM damage renders them almost the same as a laser but with a different graphic. Thats no fun. Variety 4tw here. @Tux - We can see the joy rising in your pants now!! Give in before they become so tight that they begin to cut off circulation! <waves Khanid models around Tux's office and makes missile sounds> Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Gordon Red	Posted - 2006.06.20 00:11:00 - [143] /signed ____________________________________________________________
Kitty O'Shay	Posted - 2006.06.20 00:53:00 - [144] There are no Jen-mei ships. There are no Achrua ships. There are no Veherokur ships. There ARE Khanid ships. They should be unique, and have a role. So.... /signed. -- Selling low SP Barge pilot characters, cheap! Evemail me for info.
Rabid Sheep	Posted - 2006.06.22 14:02:00 - [145] Do not let it die! Bump!
Wesley Harding	Posted - 2006.06.22 21:10:00 - [146] I'd prefer shield resists on the Hawk. A passive tank would be very good on her I think. Anyway, since we're talking Khanid, I wouldn't mind some tweaking to the Impel. She's underfitted, lacking both CPU and Grid considering the number of lows she has. If she had just a little more grid and cpu she could fit tech II instead of expensive faction gear.
Brazero	Posted - 2006.06.23 12:44:00 - [147] Not much going on here, maybe the subject is too hot. So a bump is in order
Agama	Posted - 2006.06.23 14:03:00 - [148] Edited by: Agama on 23/06/2006 14:03:11 C'mon.... devs. You know this is a good idea. At least it will us Amarr pilots something fun to play with. 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
DeadDuck	Posted - 2006.06.23 14:16:00 - [149] Edited by: DeadDuck on 23/06/2006 14:17:04 Originally by: Wesley Harding If she had just a little more grid and cpu she could fit tech II instead of expensive faction gear. Dont worry with the PG bonus ... you will have your 1MW sooner or later
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.24 14:19:00 - [150] No, you will not die!
Forsch	Posted - 2006.06.26 15:46:00 - [151] How about black armor tanking missile boats? Pretty please? Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Kardim	Posted - 2006.06.26 16:58:00 - [152] im in on this one, id love to see khanid worth something. when people cant sell the t2 amarr at horridly outrageous prices u know they suck... most HAC's go for 160-200+ M nowadays and u can find a sacrilidge for 80-100M easily. anyways /singed
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.06.26 17:33:00 - [153] @ the OP: WTF with a 50% dmg bonus on EM missiles on malediction, that's the one amarr inty that's fine imo
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.06.26 17:33:00 - [154] @ the OP: WTF with a 50% dmg bonus on EM missiles on malediction, that's the one amarr inty that's fine imo
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.06.27 07:28:00 - [155] Personally, I'd like to see Khanid become the kings of dura-tanking. I.E. shield extenders and armor plates for lots of raw HP. It would take a lot of work to make them any good at it though, since this tactic is generally a bad idea.
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:00:00 - [156] I thought this was such a good idea, so well thought out in a logical order and format from concept to specific changes that it has influenced me to start training up for T2 missiles. It makes THAT much sense to implement Khanid in such a fashion. BRING ON THE NEW KHANID!!!! Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Guillame Herschel	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:45:00 - [157] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 27/06/2006 21:45:19 Originally by: Aakron Sarmaul for president The Amarr Empire is not a democracy.
Guillame Herschel	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:49:00 - [158] Originally by: Sarmaul Rule 1: Thou Shalt Armour Tank Khanid ships are going to take their tank from their Amarrian heritage. These ships should be the hardest armour tankers in game, something that is pretty much garenteed by the next couple of rules. But this contradicts the description of Khanid ships: Quote: Developer: Khanid Innovation Constantly striving to combine the best of two worlds, Khanid Innovation have utilized their Caldari connections to such an extent that the Kingdom's ships now possess the most advanced shield generators outside Caldari space, as well as fairly robust electronics systems.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:57:00 - [159] Edited by: Sarmaul on 27/06/2006 22:02:04 Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: Sarmaul Rule 1: Thou Shalt Armour Tank Khanid ships are going to take their tank from their Amarrian heritage. These ships should be the hardest armour tankers in game, something that is pretty much garenteed by the next couple of rules. But this contradicts the description of Khanid ships: Quote: Developer: Khanid Innovation Constantly striving to combine the best of two worlds, Khanid Innovation have utilized their Caldari connections to such an extent that the Kingdom's ships now possess the most advanced shield generators outside Caldari space, as well as fairly robust electronics systems. Then make up some stupid news piece where Khanid decide it's time for a major revamp of their ships. While their at it, the Minmatar Republic can steal their shield technology and get a hitpoint boost :) edit: I'm fully aware of the backstory for Khanid ships. My point is that it is a daft idea and armour tanking missile spammers is far better and more plausable than: Boss Naka: "Ying, we need to make our ships different from our Amarrian counterparts." Scientist Ying: "I know, as our guns use loads of cap, lets use a form of tanking that also uses loads of cap. The two go hand in hand! 4 midslots is more than enough to run a full shield tank. Just look at the heathen's Vagabond - if it doesn't need hardeners then neither do we." Boss Naka: "Genius! You're promoted!" TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Furry Butt	Posted - 2006.06.28 22:54:00 - [160] Bumpage. But seriously. The ideas put forward by Sarmaul (at the top of the thread...) are a great idea. I am amarr specced myself and my one little hope at the moment is that the sexy black ships are fixed up to be armor tanking missle boats instead of mere shadows of their Cathium buddies. It will give Amarr characters something else to do as well.
Agama	Posted - 2006.06.28 22:55:00 - [161] ^^ Stupid Alt ^^ Time for the biomass reprocessing for you DIE 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.29 14:18:00 - [162] Also, this backstory is mostly ignored by the ships stats right now anyway. Compare the Damnation and the Absolution. The first with "the most advanced shield generators outside Caldari space" has exactly the same shield HP than the latter one. Either way - we have here a thing which is more precious than a field full of morphite in 1.0 space: a thread where pretty much everyone aggrees that it is a good idea. Unlike 99.9% of all other threads in the ship & modules forums. I know that Tux stated that responding to a thread does often derail or "contaminate" it, but here pretty much everything has been said so far. Any..comment? Pretty please with cream?
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.07.03 01:11:00 - [163] Tux - please help me. Every time I read this post my pants get tight. Too tight. Repeated and constant readings have caused me serious bruising. And my wife is begining to wonder about why I look at this page 100 times an evening with pants stretched to the breaking point. Sometimes I walk down the street and think about missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ships and I get all excited. REAL excited. People start to stare at me and I try to pretend that I was just looking at the new Victoria's Secret catalog or something but I think they may be catching on. The Sacriledge picture I put over the top of Tyra's head may be giving me away. It's either that or the t-shirt with a picture of Sarmaul on it, I dunno which. My wife is getting angry with me too. She has woken me up several times when she has heard me talking in my sleep saying things like "Sarmaul...Khanid...so hot.." and "Oh Tuxford, please don't make me beg anymore.......". I have told her that I was just dreaming about some paperwork that I needed to finish at work, but I don't think she believes me. Last time she yelled at me a lot becuase I was rubbing my happy place on her while sleeping and mumbling about the Vengeance and Malediction. I tried to make a joke out of it and laugh it off, but she didn't seem to think it was very funny. Tux, please tell us if you are considering this option for Khanid, or if you are currently working on an implementation similar to this. My doctor says that if it keeps going on like this, my bruising may lead to more serious pants injuries and my wife's patience is seriously begining to run out. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2006.07.03 01:42:00 - [164] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: babylonstew +10% to missile damage on the mal isnt that twice what the crow gets? Crow: "Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage per level" The 10% damage bonuses are doubles, the three other inties with +10% damage (claw, taranis, crow) have only 3 bonuses. You need to lose a bonus, the laser cap use makes most sense I guess.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.07.03 10:11:00 - [165] If they wanted to keep in RP then they could something along the lines of this ... SAC : 6/5/4 4 missiles/3 turrets 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level 5% EM missile damage for lights and heavy missiles and 5% assault and heavy missile launchers per level shield capacity 1693 shield em damage resistance 15 % shield explosive damage resistance 60 % shield kinetic damage resistance 65 % shield thermal damage resistance 80 % armorhp 1724 armor em damage resistance 60 % armor explosive damage resistance 10 % armor kinetic damage resistance 58,5 % armor thermal damage resistance 86,25 % Team Minmatar
Lucian Alucard	Posted - 2006.07.03 10:46:00 - [166] i tend to like these ideas cept tho I think for the sake of damage they should go for sheild tanking on the Sac and 4 missle slots so as to accomodate 4 heavy ml and 2 nos as opposed to a 5/1 fit as well as making the armor resistance bonus a sheild one instead another option tho is making it practically an Eagle and having it as a sniper since really the Eagle is the most common turret sniper used.
snotty	Posted - 2006.07.03 10:47:00 - [167] why copying caldari resists to amarr? we mainly fight them runnaway slaves if you want a shieldtank amarr hac, it should get the 90% explosive and 70% kin shield resist.
Agama	Posted - 2006.07.03 22:43:00 - [168] Sarmaul's ideas are great. I really hope a Dev sees these suggestions as I honestly think it will help solve some of the problems with amarr ships in general. Because....at the moment....generally speaking the cool looking black ships really aren't much chop overall. 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
Agama	Posted - 2006.07.04 22:24:00 - [169] Edited by: Agama on 04/07/2006 22:24:18 Damn....back to page 4. This is a great idea that shouldn't die. It would be great to get some kind of official response. :) 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
Bondage Betty	Posted - 2006.07.04 22:39:00 - [170] Sounds delicious.
Serj Darek	Posted - 2006.07.04 22:40:00 - [171] I think this idea is great! Seems to be a bit more logical than what the Khanid are atm. Fix the Typhoon description!
Artie Fufkin	Posted - 2006.07.04 23:46:00 - [172] I have to admit first, that I didnt read the whole thread, it started getting blurry around page 3 :s I like the idea in principal, differentiating the Khanid ships can only be a good thing. However I am very worried that Missiles + Armour Tank would be too powerful. Its well known that Armour Tanking is significantly lighter on the cap than a shield tank. Relative to the amounts tanked & so forth, well im not quite sure what the ratio of hp/cap is... But it was my understanding that its the cap requirements of hybrids/lasers that keep the Gallente & Amarr armour tanks in balance? Something else i'd like to chuck at this, is the proposed Sacri Setup of Dual Reps, Lots of Cap Relays/Rechargers, and pure missile spammage... it sounds uh... overpowered? Its these sorts of things that would make such an implementation difficult. Obviously, there are more considerations that what i've posted, and im generalising, but it does sound to me like too much of a win/win situation. And people already complain about the raven's ability to fit a strong tank and full weapon systems. If you can come up with some figures to disprove me, Well then congrats, you've a viable idea. But it is very very concerning.
Akiman	Posted - 2006.07.05 00:18:00 - [173] AAND MİNMATAR TECHNOLOGY COMES TO GALLENTES!!! NO MORE CAP USE İN HYBRİDS YAY! what were you waiting our scientist were working also!!!
Agama	Posted - 2006.07.05 21:56:00 - [174] Damn....Page 4. Another bump for this great idea. Devs...pretty please..... 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
Sniser	Posted - 2006.07.05 22:06:00 - [175] Originally by: Kaylana Syi If they wanted to keep in RP then they could something along the lines of this ... SAC : 6/5/4 4 missiles/3 turrets 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level 5% EM missile damage for lights and heavy missiles and 5% assault and heavy missile launchers per level shield capacity 1693 shield em damage resistance 15 % shield explosive damage resistance 60 % shield kinetic damage resistance 65 % shield thermal damage resistance 80 % armorhp 1724 armor em damage resistance 60 % armor explosive damage resistance 10 % armor kinetic damage resistance 58,5 % armor thermal damage resistance 86,25 % dont mix weapons, take off that energy turret capacitor and add 10% velocity with light missiles , heavy etc..
Tar Ecthelion	Posted - 2006.07.05 22:23:00 - [176] /signed, with utmost conviction. Make me lub my ickle Saccy again please ..... "When you kill a man it costs nothing to be polite" Winston Churchill
Hitomi Ayame	Posted - 2006.07.05 22:40:00 - [177] Originally by: Nyxus Tux - please help me. Every time I read this post my pants get tight. Too tight. Repeated and constant readings have caused me serious bruising. And my wife is begining to wonder about why I look at this page 100 times an evening with pants stretched to the breaking point. Sometimes I walk down the street and think about missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ships and I get all excited. REAL excited. People start to stare at me and I try to pretend that I was just looking at the new Victoria's Secret catalog or something but I think they may be catching on. The Sacriledge picture I put over the top of Tyra's head may be giving me away. It's either that or the t-shirt with a picture of Sarmaul on it, I dunno which. My wife is getting angry with me too. She has woken me up several times when she has heard me talking in my sleep saying things like "Sarmaul...Khanid...so hot.." and "Oh Tuxford, please don't make me beg anymore.......". I have told her that I was just dreaming about some paperwork that I needed to finish at work, but I don't think she believes me. Last time she yelled at me a lot becuase I was rubbing my happy place on her while sleeping and mumbling about the Vengeance and Malediction. I tried to make a joke out of it and laugh it off, but she didn't seem to think it was very funny. Tux, please tell us if you are considering this option for Khanid, or if you are currently working on an implementation similar to this. My doctor says that if it keeps going on like this, my bruising may lead to more serious pants injuries and my wife's patience is seriously begining to run out. Nyxus That made my day. This thread must not die! Missile spewing armor tankers ftw! - - - The Royal Knights of Khanid are now recruiting! Step up and serve God and Khanid today!
Outa Rileau	Posted - 2006.07.05 23:06:00 - [178] ♥♥♥
Agama	Posted - 2006.07.06 00:38:00 - [179] This would be great. Armour tanking missile boats !!! It would give Amarr pilots something different to try to specialist in and it would give Caldari / Missile Specialist another racial ship to move into other than Gallente (and have to train Guns, drones, and armour tanking). 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.07.06 01:42:00 - [180] Originally by: Sniser dont mix weapons, take off that energy turret capacitor and add 10% velocity with light missiles , heavy etc.. you know... that is the base stat for a cruiser 5 so it ISN'T going to get changed or I want a 5% damage to all missile damage on the Cerebrus instead of kinetic damage. Team Minmatar
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.07.06 14:05:00 - [181] Edited by: Nyxus on 06/07/2006 14:05:34 Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Sniser dont mix weapons, take off that energy turret capacitor and add 10% velocity with light missiles , heavy etc.. you know... that is the base stat for a cruiser 5 so it ISN'T going to get changed or I want a 5% damage to all missile damage on the Cerebrus instead of kinetic damage. Honestly Kaylana I am not sure what you are griping about here. The Cerb pwns. It's not like someone is asking for a bonus to sig radius for the Khanid ships similar to the stealth bombers. Although we sure wouldn't gripe if it got one. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.07.06 14:10:00 - [182] Originally by: Nyxus Tux - please help me. Every time I read this post my pants get tight. Too tight. Repeated and constant readings have caused me serious bruising. And my wife is begining to wonder about why I look at this page 100 times an evening with pants stretched to the breaking point. Sometimes I walk down the street and think about missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ships and I get all excited. REAL excited. People start to stare at me and I try to pretend that I was just looking at the new Victoria's Secret catalog or something but I think they may be catching on. The Sacriledge picture I put over the top of Tyra's head may be giving me away. It's either that or the t-shirt with a picture of Sarmaul on it, I dunno which. My wife is getting angry with me too. She has woken me up several times when she has heard me talking in my sleep saying things like "Sarmaul...Khanid...so hot.." and "Oh Tuxford, please don't make me beg anymore.......". I have told her that I was just dreaming about some paperwork that I needed to finish at work, but I don't think she believes me. Last time she yelled at me a lot becuase I was rubbing my happy place on her while sleeping and mumbling about the Vengeance and Malediction. I tried to make a joke out of it and laugh it off, but she didn't seem to think it was very funny. Tux, please tell us if you are considering this option for Khanid, or if you are currently working on an implementation similar to this. My doctor says that if it keeps going on like this, my bruising may lead to more serious pants injuries and my wife's patience is seriously begining to run out. Nyxus <3 TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Stamm	Posted - 2006.07.06 14:59:00 - [183] Nyxus, from hearing you on vent for months... I'm pretty convinced your wife never had any patience to start off with. Oh, did I bump this thread? :)
Agama	Posted - 2006.07.06 23:17:00 - [184] Its another bump for this great thread. 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.07.07 06:36:00 - [185] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Sniser dont mix weapons, take off that energy turret capacitor and add 10% velocity with light missiles , heavy etc.. you know... that is the base stat for a cruiser 5 so it ISN'T going to get changed or I want a 5% damage to all missile damage on the Cerebrus instead of kinetic damage. I am not griping about the cerb's performance. But if the guy I quoted says silly stuff like don't split weapons when obviosly the cruiser bonus is kept the same on the ships... then why would the SAC get special treatment? If it did... no reason not to change the kin damage bonus on the cerb to all damage types. And also give the DEVs a reason to take away the speed bonus on the Vagabond Team Minmatar
Meridius	Posted - 2006.07.07 06:54:00 - [186] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Sniser dont mix weapons, take off that energy turret capacitor and add 10% velocity with light missiles , heavy etc.. you know... that is the base stat for a cruiser 5 so it ISN'T going to get changed or I want a 5% damage to all missile damage on the Cerebrus instead of kinetic damage. I am not griping about the cerb's performance. But if the guy I quoted says silly stuff like don't split weapons when obviosly the cruiser bonus is kept the same on the ships... then why would the SAC get special treatment? If it did... no reason not to change the kin damage bonus on the cerb to all damage types. And also give the DEVs a reason to take away the speed bonus on the Vagabond Uhh how does the 5% kinetic damage the Cerb gets make it a split weapon bonus? It's a bonus for missiles. The Cerb gets 4 bonuses for missiles. Changing that 5% kin bonus to generic dmg is just being greedy. The Sac will end up with a laser capacitor use bonus that will be 100% useless - _____
Pesadel0	Posted - 2006.07.07 08:04:00 - [187] Give to the amarr scum some love .
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.07.07 08:16:00 - [188] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Sniser dont mix weapons, take off that energy turret capacitor and add 10% velocity with light missiles , heavy etc.. you know... that is the base stat for a cruiser 5 so it ISN'T going to get changed or I want a 5% damage to all missile damage on the Cerebrus instead of kinetic damage. I am not griping about the cerb's performance. But if the guy I quoted says silly stuff like don't split weapons when obviosly the cruiser bonus is kept the same on the ships... then why would the SAC get special treatment? If it did... no reason not to change the kin damage bonus on the cerb to all damage types. And also give the DEVs a reason to take away the speed bonus on the Vagabond Uhh how does the 5% kinetic damage the Cerb gets make it a split weapon bonus? It's a bonus for missiles. The Cerb gets 4 bonuses for missiles. Changing that 5% kin bonus to generic dmg is just being greedy. The Sac will end up with a laser capacitor use bonus that will be 100% useless Then lets change the whole way we deal with HACs... which is just short of ludacris. Because if you start adjusting the way they work bonuses you have reason to change others that you feel are over powered. Thus, no matter how you wrap your corn in tinfoil... changing the base cruiser bonuses on HACs will be just another reason to change the Ishtar or Vagabonds bonus to make them less uber. You wanna complain about a split weapon system? Typhoon... naglfar... nuff said. Team Minmatar
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.07.07 08:24:00 - [189] Too bad exactly this happened to the nighthawk. Ferox has 10% hybrid range, nighthawk has 10% bonus to heavy missile target navigation prediction from the BC skill. There's no rule that T1 ship boni need to apply on their t2 versions as well.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.07.07 08:35:00 - [190] Originally by: Aramendel Too bad exactly this happened to the nighthawk. Ferox has 10% hybrid range, nighthawk has 10% bonus to heavy missile target navigation prediction from the BC skill. There's no rule that T1 ship boni need to apply on their t2 versions as well. That is a command ship... not a HAC. And lets be honest... they should have never did it in the first place... not when a teir 2 BC with missiles was on the horizon. Team Minmatar
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.07.07 08:45:00 - [191] Edited by: Aramendel on 07/07/2006 08:47:09 You are really grasping for straws now, are you? It is a command ship, but guess what skills you need to pilot it? Ah, right, the HAC ones. Or care to explain how it is "ok" for a command ship to change this but not for a HAC? Are those in any way "special" there? I think not. Nighthawk is so far simply the only t2 ship which has switched it's primary weapon system compared to the t1 parent. Ergo CCP changed it's now useless t1 rail bonus to a missle bonus. The t1 ship boni are not set in stone. Like it or not, it's that way. Deal with it.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.07.07 10:00:00 - [192] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 07/07/2006 10:04:42 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 07/07/2006 08:47:09 You are really grasping for straws now, are you? It is a command ship, but guess what skills you need to pilot it? Ah, right, the HAC ones. Or care to explain how it is "ok" for a command ship to change this but not for a HAC? Are those in any way "special" there? I think not. Nighthawk is so far simply the only t2 ship which has switched it's primary weapon system compared to the t1 parent. Ergo CCP changed it's now useless t1 rail bonus to a missle bonus. The t1 ship boni are not set in stone. Like it or not, it's that way. Deal with it. w/e 1) The Command ship isn't a HAC plain and simple. Its much more. 2) The Nighthawk is an anomoly and lets see... 17 pages of why the Nighthawk sucks thread. 3) It is not ok for them to change the bonus... it was shere stupidity for it to not be a rail boat plain and simple. Just like it would be shere stupidity to change the maller bonuses on the SAC. 2 wrongs don't make you right nub. 4) The rail optimal range bonus isn't worthless. If you think so then you obviously don't know anything so stop right now. You have no clue... absolutely none. 5) T1 ship bonuses follow a design pattern and the DEVs reserve the right to try new things. They failed on the Nighthawk. They tried to give the community something that just wasn't needed and now its a pathetic slow ferox with some more tank and a touch more damage with a nice paint job. 6) Infact, 2 Missile bonsues on the NH are pretty worthless atm with no heavy assault launchers in sight. While we could have had a pretty *****ing railhawk to rival a Sleipnir instead of being a limp, mini-raven fraud. Team Minmatar
Lucre	Posted - 2006.07.07 10:20:00 - [193] Originally by: Methuselar Most Amarrian have already abandoned laser on their punisher->maller->Apoc route. Ashamed but true. Well, if the object is to blend Amarr and Caldari, perhaps the laser bonus should be jettisoned in favour of a hybrid bonus? Amarr armour tank and slot layout with Caldari weaponry...
Forsch	Posted - 2006.07.07 10:36:00 - [194] Originally by: Lucre Originally by: Methuselar Most Amarrian have already abandoned laser on their punisher->maller->Apoc route. Ashamed but true. Well, if the object is to blend Amarr and Caldari, perhaps the laser bonus should be jettisoned in favour of a hybrid bonus? Amarr armour tank and slot layout with Caldari weaponry... Aren't there some NPCs that do this? I seem to remember some white/blueish ships (Eos? or something) that use rail guns on amarrian ship models. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.07.07 10:49:00 - [195] Edited by: Aramendel on 07/07/2006 10:49:20 Originally by: Kaylana Syi 1) The Command ship isn't a HAC plain and simple. Its much more. Field command ships are primary dps ships, just like the HACs. Quote: 2) The Nighthawk is an anomoly and lets see... 17 pages of why the Nighthawk sucks thread. 3) It is not ok for them to change the bonus... it was shere stupidity for it to not be a rail boat plain and simple. Just like it would be shere stupidity to change the maller bonuses on the SAC. 2 wrongs don't make you right nub. Yes, we know you do not like that they changed the bonus for the Nighthawk and find it "stupid". Afraid your hurt feelings are no argument, though. Quote: 4) The rail optimal range bonus isn't worthless. If you think so then you obviously don't know anything so stop right now. You have no clue... absolutely none. Reading comprehenshion 4tw! ..It's now* useless bonus..* If you can explain how a 50% hybrid range keeps it's usability for a ship with 6 missle and 1 (read: one) turret slot feel free to try. Quote: 5) T1 ship bonuses follow a design pattern and the DEVs reserve the right to try new things. They failed on the Nighthawk. They tried to give the community something that just wasn't needed and now its a pathetic slow ferox with some more tank and a touch more damage with a nice paint job. And who judges that they failed? You? Or perhaps, just perhaps, were they the opinion that t1 ship boni are not set in stone but can be changed when it's logical. Quote: 6) Infact, 2 Missile bonsues on the NH are pretty worthless atm with no heavy assault launchers in sight. While we could have had a pretty *****ing railhawk to rival a Sleipnir instead of being a limp, mini-raven fraud. True, but thats no problem with the t1 bonuschange but a simple balanceissue. I do not see any posts like "please make the nighthawk a dps railboat" in the nighthawk thread.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.07.07 12:42:00 - [196] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Then lets change the whole way we deal with HACs... which is just short of ludacris. Because if you start adjusting the way they work bonuses you have reason to change others that you feel are over powered. Thus, no matter how you wrap your corn in tinfoil... changing the base cruiser bonuses on HACs will be just another reason to change the Ishtar or Vagabonds bonus to make them less uber. You wanna complain about a split weapon system? Typhoon... naglfar... nuff said. You still lose. The Typhoon and Nagflar get equal bonus's to both weapon systems which in turn have equal slots. If the Sacrilege was turned into a missile boat it would have ZERO use for a laser capacitor use bonus. None of the ships you mentioned suffer as the Sacrilege would. You keep mentioning the Vagabond yet it makes no sense at all. Whats wrong with the Vagas speed bonus? It's meant to be fast ffs and it uses it's bonus extremely well. Key words here: Using it's bonus The Sacrilege would have no use for a laser cap bonus if it turned into a missile ship, period the end. - _____
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.07.07 18:23:00 - [197] The reason the Typhoon, Huginn, Rapier and Nalgfar get dual weapon bonuses is because half of their weapon points are turrets and the other half are missiles, and it needs the 2 bonuses to ensure more than half of it's weapon slots get some form of bonus to them. TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.07.07 20:41:00 - [198] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Kaylana Syi Then lets change the whole way we deal with HACs... which is just short of ludacris. Because if you start adjusting the way they work bonuses you have reason to change others that you feel are over powered. Thus, no matter how you wrap your corn in tinfoil... changing the base cruiser bonuses on HACs will be just another reason to change the Ishtar or Vagabonds bonus to make them less uber. You wanna complain about a split weapon system? Typhoon... naglfar... nuff said. You still lose. The Typhoon and Nagflar get equal bonus's to both weapon systems which in turn have equal slots. If the Sacrilege was turned into a missile boat it would have ZERO use for a laser capacitor use bonus. None of the ships you mentioned suffer as the Sacrilege would. You keep mentioning the Vagabond yet it makes no sense at all. Whats wrong with the Vagas speed bonus? It's meant to be fast ffs and it uses it's bonus extremely well. Key words here: Using it's bonus The Sacrilege would have no use for a laser cap bonus if it turned into a missile ship, period the end. Quote: f they wanted to keep in RP then they could something along the lines of this ... SAC : 6/5/4 4 missiles/3 turrets 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level 5% EM missile damage for lights and heavy missiles and 5% assault and heavy missile launchers per level You can still go 3/3 or 4/2 or not even use my idea. The SAC is a hard ship to ballance but changing the bonuses begotten by the maller is simply out of the question in my book. And that was all I was defending... so no I don't loose. If it needs 7 highs to make it right then let it be so... but arguing with muppets over the t1 bonuses I am done with. Team Minmatar
Ki'ath Jahra	Posted - 2006.07.07 23:18:00 - [199] Khanid ships should really be the only reason Amarr should ever use EW. A Khanid ship, realistically, should boast armor resistance bonuses, allowing med slots to be pumped and low slots to be restricted so that a khanid ship pilot can get away with perhaps only a single armor repper + some other armor mod.
Jormunrek	Posted - 2006.07.08 12:34:00 - [200] Getting towards the bottom of page two. bump and agreed Jorm
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2006.07.08 13:17:00 - [201] Originally by: Meridius Uhh how does the 5% kinetic damage the Cerb gets make it a split weapon bonus? It's a bonus for missiles. The Cerb gets 4 bonuses for missiles. Changing that 5% kin bonus to generic dmg is just being greedy. The Sac will end up with a laser capacitor use bonus that will be 100% useless Whats an amarr ship without laser cap use bonus? But seriously, I agree. Sac would be the first amarr ship thats missiles based. I also still dont understand why Tux isnt changing the ship into something that makes his pants happy. Ship lovers click here
Aion Amarra	Posted - 2006.07.08 16:27:00 - [202] Omg. I can't believe that I saw this thread only now. <3 Sarmaul This is exactly what I have always wanted Khanid ships to be. I also always wanted armortanking missileships. Woo. I'm also of the opinion that they need to drop the 10% Laser Cap bonus from those ships, and give em something more useful instead. Actually, how about a 5% reduction of cap recharge time per level? Alternatively, of course the already suggested Armor Repairer cap use bonus (5%? 10%? 7.5%?). Anyways. Sexy black armor tanking missileships that make Tux happy in the pants for the win! Originally by: Forsch Aren't there some NPCs that do this? I seem to remember some white/blueish ships (Eos? or something) that use rail guns on amarrian ship models. It's EoM, or Equilibrium of Mankind. They use Hybrids on Amarr ships and got kickass paintjobs. Only fought them in one mission so far. X_o They rock, tho. ________ Capitalization is the difference between "I helped my uncle Jack off his horse." and "I helped my uncle jack off his horse." Help the horses, make proper use of that shift button.
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.07.08 16:41:00 - [203] See - the laser problems are already so widespread that even NPCs stop using them! Highjacks thread
Agama	Posted - 2006.07.09 21:56:00 - [204] Must....have..... armor tanking....missle....boats. 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
Meridius	Posted - 2006.07.10 00:36:00 - [205] Originally by: Kaylana Syi You can still go 3/3 or 4/2 or not even use my idea. The SAC is a hard ship to ballance but changing the bonuses begotten by the maller is simply out of the question in my book. And that was all I was defending... so no I don't loose. If it needs 7 highs to make it right then let it be so... but arguing with muppets over the t1 bonuses I am done with. What possible reason would there be to go 3/3 or 4/2? What do lasers offer that missiles with more bonuses won't? If a cerb had 3 turret points do you really think anyone would go 3/3 or 4/2 with that? Hell no, 5 launchers every time. The laser cap bonus would be 100% useless. Things that are useless are bad from a game design perspective. The only way the laser cap bonus would be usefull is if it got a 7.5% rof for lasers and missile. - _____
Luric Vizjier	Posted - 2006.07.10 06:52:00 - [206] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Meridius Uhh how does the 5% kinetic damage the Cerb gets make it a split weapon bonus? It's a bonus for missiles. The Cerb gets 4 bonuses for missiles. Changing that 5% kin bonus to generic dmg is just being greedy. The Sac will end up with a laser capacitor use bonus that will be 100% useless Whats an amarr ship without laser cap use bonus? But seriously, I agree. Sac would be the first amarr ship thats missiles based. I also still dont understand why Tux isnt changing the ship into something that makes his pants happy. First amarr ship thats missle based? Well, although combat recon ships really aren't very good at 'combat', keep in mind that the Curse has FOUR missle hardpoints. And although it obviously has no bonuses to such, in the hands of a skilled missle user, such a setup on the curse, especially combined with its drones, could be the end for many a ship. Oh, and bump :) -----------------------------------------------
dabster	Posted - 2006.07.10 11:23:00 - [207] rawr...gj Sarm, keep bringing up Amarr and we should in a couple of months see some un-called Matari boosts out of the blue ___________________________ Brutors Rule! My Eve-vids; Click.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.07.10 11:25:00 - [208] TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Sniser	Posted - 2006.07.10 14:30:00 - [209] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Whats an amarr ship without laser cap use bonus? a good ship?
Methuselar	Posted - 2006.07.10 15:37:00 - [210] Sad but true, the less the laser bonuses are the better an Amarr ship is. Well in this logic there are 2 kinds of Amarrian ships: 1. Zealot(and now 2XSacrileges and 8x Omens)/Geddon 2. All other functioning Amarrian ships
KillerLU	Posted - 2006.07.11 08:15:00 - [211] Would be wonderfull if the devs applied this. Good job Sarmaul. This is really a thread that needs attention cause it's really contructive, not like the 40 pages whining Amarr thread... and BUMP
Velvet Valour Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.14 18:07:00 - [212] bump to keep the thread going. . . "i'd write this in pencil if i thought it would make you less permanent"
Molten Steel	Posted - 2006.07.15 19:47:00 - [213] Such a fine tread is just begging for a sticky. In the mean time bump should do the trick.
Rexthor Hammerfists Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.07.15 21:48:00 - [214] what about giving several amarr ships bonusses to nos. like the 6th amarr frig could get one, and that cruiser that has a bonus to remote cap trans atm. would make things more interesting. coulod also become an khanid thing, instead of missiles. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
Qwynn Legion HQ Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.07.16 02:51:00 - [215] Quote: The New Malediction Slots: 4/3/3 (same) Missiles: 3 (+1) Turrets: 3 (same) Drones: 5m3 (+5m3) Shield: 300 (-75) Armor: 481 (+75) Hull: Whatever it is now (not in item database). Amarr Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capaicitor use and 10% bonus to EM missile damage per level. Interceptors Bonus: 5% reduction in Signature Radius and 5% bonsu to all armor resistances per level. might want to change that, but a malediction able to fit heavy pulses II sounds nifty d: I'm not under the alcafluence of inkahol that some thinkle peep I am. It's just the drunker I sit here the longer I get.
El Ponja	Posted - 2006.07.18 06:38:00 - [216] Bump for an excelent solution
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.07.18 15:36:00 - [217] This belong on page one until its in! --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Hitomi Ayame Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.18 16:24:00 - [218] What, this thread lives? Excellent! - - - The Royal Knights of Khanid are now recruiting! Step up and serve God and Khanid today!
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.07.18 20:32:00 - [219] Originally by: Qwynn Quote: The New Malediction Slots: 4/3/3 (same) Missiles: 3 (+1) Turrets: 3 (same) Drones: 5m3 (+5m3) Shield: 300 (-75) Armor: 481 (+75) Hull: Whatever it is now (not in item database). Amarr Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capaicitor use and 10% bonus to EM missile damage per level. Interceptors Bonus: 5% reduction in Signature Radius and 5% bonsu to all armor resistances per level. might want to change that, but a malediction able to fit heavy pulses II sounds nifty d: TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Ki'ath Jahra	Posted - 2006.07.18 21:14:00 - [220] Super-bumpage!
El Ponja	Posted - 2006.07.19 04:05:00 - [221] and this post is..........back to front page, where it belongs
Pia Zawa	Posted - 2006.07.20 08:41:00 - [222] Jepp, so it is. I wonder why we haven't seen one single dev in here. Are they busy implementing these changes
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.07.20 09:12:00 - [223] Edited by: Kldraina on 20/07/2006 09:12:50 The Devs are probably still trying to figure out what Khanid are supposed to be. When I first started playing a Year ago, they looked like shield tanking Sansha. Now, I'm not sure what they are. It's kinda weird. The flavor says strong shields, but the numbers say strong armor.
Saktas	Posted - 2006.07.20 10:37:00 - [224] Edited by: Saktas on 20/07/2006 10:42:09 Sarmaul a brilliant thread that must never die ..Please Devs make it so.. I don't wont Khanid to be the new "I win" because I have a missile spamming armourtanking mf of a ship..just please make them what they were ment to be..a cool alternative to predictable Amarr (ooh i wonder what dmg type that {insert Amarr ship} is going to do to me) armour tankers. I think moast races agree this is a good idea , even if the finer points havn't been worked out yet..deserves a sticky!! Signed Venveda Khanid Wolves (sorry, defaulted bak to alt wen posted!!)
xenorx 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.07.20 13:45:00 - [225] Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Hellspawn01 Whats an amarr ship without laser cap use bonus? a good ship? It could be argued either way really. There are still a few of us that remember back three years ago when amarr pilots were fitting projectiles on their ships because they could not sustain the cap use on their lasers. The game has changed a lot since then so it may be time to change it again. Sarmaul for a minmitar your not so bad. Well thought out and presented post on a subject that needs to be addressed. No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Jake Noble Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.20 15:32:00 - [226] Back to the top!
Tranklukator	Posted - 2006.07.20 22:06:00 - [227] signed.
El Ponja Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.21 23:36:00 - [228] and up again you go! Summarized index thread for "Amarr" http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=344179Amarr[/
Entropist Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.07.23 03:51:00 - [229] Must . . . keep . . . thread . . .alive! ------------------
Ithildin Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.23 04:25:00 - [230] Even though it's been brought up once that I noticed, I don't think Sarmaul has yet justified why he's opted for a double damage bonus to EM missiles for the Malediction, in addition to the standard laser capacitor use bonus (making for one more bonus than that of it's peers). While EM damage truely is inferior on the frigate level (need ship categories that are likely to shield boost/extend in order for EM to be useful, frigates don't have room for shield tanks after propulsion jamming has been fitted), the simple matter of fact is that the damage level will be disproportionately (did I manage to speel that right?) increased. Additionally, all it will accomplish is an EM Crow that is slightly more agile and slightly faster. That said, the Malediction might be in a modest need of a form of boost, but let's not forget that while Khanid strive to bring the best of Amarr and Caldari together, they are Amarr first and foremost. Their shields etc are only larger and better in comparison with non-Caldari peers, most likely Khanid ships will still feature superior Armour compared to non-Amarr peers (although not quite as superior as, for example, Carthum might make them). P.S. 10% <type> missile damage bonus merits a 5% <other types> damage bonus. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Terakas	Posted - 2006.07.23 04:36:00 - [231] Hmmmm... Terakas approves but now faces the decision of whether to buy a Sacri in the hope that one day it will be something other than a space-brick or carry on saving for his Zealot....
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.07.24 14:13:00 - [232] Bump for Tux! --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Agama Veto.	Posted - 2006.07.25 01:39:00 - [233] A bump for a great topic. Please bring this in..... 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
Entropist Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.07.25 04:03:00 - [234] Bumpage. Keep this thread on the front page and maybe we'll get some results in a couple patches from now or at least a dev acknowledgement.
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.07.25 06:44:00 - [235] Edited by: Kldraina on 25/07/2006 06:45:34 Here's a crazy idea to try making the Sacrilige completely unpredictable: PG: 1000 CPU: 400 Armor: 1800 Shield: 1800 Fittings: 6-5-5 3 turret, 3 launcher Boni: Cruiser skill: +5% armor resists per level, and -10% laser cap use per level. HAC skill: +5% shield resists per level, and 5% improved missile RoF per level. Now, I know the boni suck, so I tried upping the fittings, CPU, and shields to help out. So now I ask, could this ship, actually be useful? Or would the split boni, prevent it from being useful even with the extra mid and CPU? (The basic idea is to make the Sac a real wild card).
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.25 15:15:00 - [236] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Someone should sticky this until the powers that be have recongized it, then we won't have to bump it all the time :D FFS, stop bumping these two threads! First the amarr one and now this one. I request a op to frigging lock these threads since they are nothing but bumps these days. Do you really think Tuxford has missed them? You wont get a reply no matter how many times you bump them. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.07.25 15:24:00 - [237] Originally by: Jim McGregor Do you really think Tuxford has missed them? You wont get a reply no matter how many times you bump them. YES WE WELL TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Azaries Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.25 15:28:00 - [238] Seems like a good idea and the Amarians need some PvP love. I get tired of always seing Vaga's and Crows.
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.07.25 15:33:00 - [239] Originally by: Ithildin Even though it's been brought up once that I noticed, I don't think Sarmaul has yet justified why he's opted for a double damage bonus to EM missiles for the Malediction, in addition to the standard laser capacitor use bonus (making for one more bonus than that of it's peers). Because if you look at the Malediction it already has dual bonuses. You could copy the Crow template but that would prevent people from fitting lasers on it without it's cap dying. The 50% is because the Crow gets 50% to Kinetic. If lasers didn't need that stupid bonus to be viable I wouldn't have put it on there. Quote: While EM damage truely is inferior on the frigate level (need ship categories that are likely to shield boost/extend in order for EM to be useful, frigates don't have room for shield tanks after propulsion jamming has been fitted), the simple matter of fact is that the damage level will be disproportionately (did I manage to speel that right?) increased. What? Quote: Additionally, all it will accomplish is an EM Crow that is slightly more agile and slightly faster. Yes, but everyone knows the Crow needs nerfing anyway, and the Mal will have the advantage of a light drone. Quote: P.S. 10% <type> missile damage bonus merits a 5% <other types> damage bonus. Wrong, see the Crow. TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Entropist Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.07.25 16:52:00 - [240] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Leandro Salazar Someone should sticky this until the powers that be have recongized it, then we won't have to bump it all the time :D FFS, stop bumping these two threads! First the amarr one and now this one. I request a op to frigging lock these threads since they are nothing but bumps these days. Do you really think Tuxford has missed them? You wont get a reply no matter how many times you bump them. This thread will continue to be bumped until it is either recognized by a CCP representative or some changes are made in the game. There is no reason to lock it as everyone is technically allowed one bump a day.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.25 16:56:00 - [241] Originally by: Entropist This thread will continue to be bumped until it is either recognized by a CCP representative or some changes are made in the game. There is no reason to lock it as everyone is technically allowed one bump a day. Well, have fun... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.07.26 00:30:00 - [242] ... I guess no one noticed the question I posed near the bottom of the previous page. Was kinda hoping to get this thread talking again, instead of just people bumping it.
Iota Belisarius Procurare Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:19:00 - [243] So you mean you want the hybrid Khanid ships to allow amarr to do more than EM and thermal damage? Blasphemy! But really nice ideas I think this is the boost the amarr need to get back on track instead of only having 2 damage types those poor bastards. --------------------- Radix Malorum est ISK
Entropist Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.07.26 16:57:00 - [244] Originally by: Kldraina ... I guess no one noticed the question I posed near the bottom of the previous page. Was kinda hoping to get this thread talking again, instead of just people bumping it. That's the beauty of this thread though - it's something that most players seem to agree on which makes it all the more mystifying that none of the devs have replied to it yet.
DethApostle Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.27 17:33:00 - [245] Page 4? Hell no.... This thread must not die!
Antskyeeh The Priory	Posted - 2006.07.28 00:01:00 - [246] This is as well presented of a case as we've seen on these boards. It appears to have the overwhelming support of the community. Implementing these changes wont so much affect balance as it will introduce some diversity in a race whose ships sorely need it. So what about it CCP?
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.07.28 03:14:00 - [247] Originally by: Entropist That's the beauty of this thread though - it's something that most players seem to agree on which makes it all the more mystifying that none of the devs have replied to it yet. Honestly, I would consider having everyone agree be all the more reason to not respond.
Hitomi Ayame Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.28 06:11:00 - [248] With all the focus on Tier 3 BS whining, who's gonna whine for the poor, ill-suited Khanid ships? Me, that's who. - - - The Royal Knights of Khanid are now recruiting! Step up and serve God and Khanid today!
McTaggart Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.28 08:32:00 - [249] We can whine for a tier 2 bc made by khanid...
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.07.28 12:17:00 - [250] Originally by: Kldraina Originally by: Entropist That's the beauty of this thread though - it's something that most players seem to agree on which makes it all the more mystifying that none of the devs have replied to it yet. Honestly, I would consider having everyone agree be all the more reason to not respond. ? TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Brazero Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.28 12:53:00 - [251] I have a Sacri sitting in the hangar, waiting, waiting, waiting......I take it out for a ride from time to time just to check that all systems are showing green. Then back to hangar for another month of waiting...... Can it really be all that hard to fix this, ....hell no Just follow Sarmauls advice, and make this ship useful.
Entropist Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.07.28 16:08:00 - [252] I think this thread deservs far more attention than all the Tier 3 BS whining. After all, Khanid ships are already in the game and have been piloted by quite a few people who say they need fixing which is more than can be said for the Abaddon. Bump.
Tiuwaz Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.28 16:14:00 - [253] Originally by: Entropist I think this thread deservs far more attention than all the Tier 3 BS whining. After all, Khanid ships are already in the game and have been piloted by quite a few people who say they need fixing which is more than can be said for the Abaddon. Bump. just shows that your best chances to change something is before it gets introduced on TQ, or you have to put up with it for a small eternity anyways bump, i support most of the proposed changes Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.07.29 01:21:00 - [254] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Kldraina Honestly, I would consider having everyone agree be all the more reason to not respond. ? If nothing is actually happening in the thread, then what purpose is served by joining in? Either he encourages people to continue their "/signed" posts, or he gets everyone upset. There isn't much else a dev can do in this thread until actual news arrives.
StupidDolphin	Posted - 2006.07.29 03:04:00 - [255] Oh great god of tuna , Sarmaul are you insane man!! You want to make khanid ships completely unbalanced. This entire suggestion is madness, if your ship designs were actually followed through, they would be the best tanks in the whole game, with the best weapons in the game, nearly completely immune to EW and very cap efficient. Short of Jove ships, they would have no equal They have no weakness at all and with regards to slot layout would be perfectly moulded for an unbreakable tank and damage mods, with ew in mid slots and a full spread of launchers, And all 100% covered by your suggested bonuses of armour resistence and damage bonuses, thus multiplying out the strength of the ship. There exists several reasons why CCP would never do this, the most obvious being any existing ship design that has above average ability to tank does little damage- deliberately Second reason is that it effectively takes the role of the cerabus or raven from caldari and gives it to amarr, except with the added bonus of a super tank. Lastly what weakness does this class of ship have to balance it out? it would have to be a huge weakness, but oh look; Immunity to NOS as its missiles require no cap Immunity to jamming due to FoF missiles Immunity to tracking disrupt The ability to CHANGE damage types at will without altering your distance of engagment. If you seriously expect or want someone to take you seriously, explain to me where it is balanced in regards to other races, as to me, it looks like you've gone; 1. I shalt have an insane, unbreakable, naturally resisted tank 2. I want the most versatile weapons that are immune to the most ew possible 3. I want lots of lows slots for my tank, lots of mid slots for ew that effects other ships that arn't insane like mine and i want all my firepower focused on one type of hard point setup. This thread is cleary just a fantasy dream. Surely are more balanced game is more fun?
Yoshimako	Posted - 2006.07.29 03:13:00 - [256] Originally by: StupidDolphin Oh great god of tuna , Sarmaul are you insane man!! You want to make khanid ships completely unbalanced. This entire suggestion is madness, if your ship designs were actually followed through, they would be the best tanks in the whole game, with the best weapons in the game, nearly completely immune to EW and very cap efficient. Short of Jove ships, they would have no equal They have no weakness at all and with regards to slot layout would be perfectly moulded for an unbreakable tank and damage mods, with ew in mid slots and a full spread of launchers, And all 100% covered by your suggested bonuses of armour resistence and damage bonuses, thus multiplying out the strength of the ship. There exists several reasons why CCP would never do this, the most obvious being any existing ship design that has above average ability to tank does little damage- deliberately Second reason is that it effectively takes the role of the cerabus or raven from caldari and gives it to amarr, except with the added bonus of a super tank. Lastly what weakness does this class of ship have to balance it out? it would have to be a huge weakness, but oh look; Immunity to NOS as its missiles require no cap Immunity to jamming due to FoF missiles Immunity to tracking disrupt The ability to CHANGE damage types at will without altering your distance of engagment. If you seriously expect or want someone to take you seriously, explain to me where it is balanced in regards to other races, as to me, it looks like you've gone; 1. I shalt have an insane, unbreakable, naturally resisted tank 2. I want the most versatile weapons that are immune to the most ew possible 3. I want lots of lows slots for my tank, lots of mid slots for ew that effects other ships that arn't insane like mine and i want all my firepower focused on one type of hard point setup. This thread is cleary just a fantasy dream. Surely are more balanced game is more fun? yup thats caldari, now what about the khanid ships?
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.07.29 04:50:00 - [257] Here's a question: What's more dangerous, missiles + EW + armor tank, or missiles + shield tank + Damage mods?
Yoshimako	Posted - 2006.07.29 11:16:00 - [258] Edited by: Yoshimako on 29/07/2006 11:20:10 Originally by: Kldraina Here's a question: What's more dangerous, missiles + EW + armor tank, or missiles + shield tank + Damage mods? Your point is moot becuase alot of ravens fit an armor tank and run even more ecm. Edit Besides as we all know ecm is overpowered and is being fixed, so by the time this would be implemented the ew fix would have been and gone.
MrRon	Posted - 2006.07.29 11:23:00 - [259] bump! this topic deserves a devs time..armourtanking missile spamers..awsome idea.. this will make many peeps very happy to have this in game..not just Amarr (but mainly Amarr) and nerf caldari..oh no wait!!
Kitty O'Shay Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.07.30 23:10:00 - [260] Any chance of Tuxford saying he's at least thought that Khanid ships should have a more unified theme? -- [THARS] is recruiting 1 ebil pirate. Be the one!
liquidshadows	Posted - 2006.07.30 23:53:00 - [261] Khanid ships probably need the most love out of all the poorly designed hybrid ships (jaguar, hawk, etc.) Which were all patched already and switched to one weapon system. The Sac (not sure if mal was ever fixed) was changed from wierd and not very good, to a worse zealot. Every other race has 2 unique Hac's so decide what you want to do with the sac first, make sure it has a niche, and just do it, dont speculate, dont "We are currently looking into this issue and will resolve it within the next patch TM." Just patch it and let the players realize it on tranq. In closing, the sac sucks, everyone agrees, do what you need to do. Or if you really really dont want to patch it, remove it from the game. I'll re-imburse the 1 person who still owns one just to have the horrible ship which I have NEVER seen in space put to rest.
El Ponja Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.31 08:12:00 - [262] Edited by: El Ponja on 31/07/2006 08:13:37 Originally by: StupidDolphin Immunity to NOS as its missiles require no cap Immunity to jamming due to FoF missiles Immunity to tracking disrupt The ability to CHANGE damage types at will without altering your distance of engagment. If you seriously expect or want someone to take you seriously, explain to me where it is balanced in regards to other races Hello?!? Thats the whole Caldari race I cant believe this ppl _____________ Amarr KhanidMKII
KillerLU VakAtioth	Posted - 2006.08.01 07:13:00 - [263] oh page 5 hmmm
Trevcakes Caldari GoonWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.08.02 10:50:00 - [264] One of the better backseat design threads I've seen. Why is Sarmaul not on the dev team again?
Trevcakes Caldari GoonWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.08.02 10:51:00 - [265] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Entropist This thread will continue to be bumped until it is either recognized by a CCP representative or some changes are made in the game. There is no reason to lock it as everyone is technically allowed one bump a day. Well, have fun... Remember the sad little bee? Mark my words this thread will be dignified with a dev response.
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 10:58:00 - [266] Originally by: Trevcakes Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Entropist This thread will continue to be bumped until it is either recognized by a CCP representative or some changes are made in the game. There is no reason to lock it as everyone is technically allowed one bump a day. Well, have fun... Remember the sad little bee? Mark my words this thread will be dignified with a dev response. Look at the Amarr thread - 50 pages and still no reply (then again, this thread is actually constructive). Tbh, assuming he liked these ideas and has plans to impliment something similar, after all the boosts tuxford has publicly stated he's working (Deimos, Nighthawk, Muninn) a new type of missile (Assault Missiles), 4 new battlecruisers and 4 new battleships, I seriously doubt he's going to add this to his schedule until post-Kali, otherwise the forums will be full of "OMG IS KHANID FINISHED YET" and "U SAID U BOOST KHANID U HATE AMARR DIE". TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.02 10:59:00 - [267] Originally by: Sarmaul Look at the Amarr thread - 50 pages and still no reply (then again, this thread is actually constructive). Pff.. so are parts of the amarr thread
Trevcakes Caldari GoonWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:36:00 - [268] I suppose you're right, yeah. Honestly though, Sovereignty isn't in there, but it's always nice to get some kind of response, even if it's just a "no", rather than languish in insecurity wether your post has even been read, and honestly, this is a good post and it deserves at least a no, but preferrably a "Soon TM".
Venveda	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:58:00 - [269] This thread is different to the Amarr thread in that its suggesting making Khanid ships missile spamming armour tankers..cool for Amarr peeps and fun for other peeps that want to try something different, it will bring in new tactics and stratergies for peeps to use in pvp.. the Amarr thread has its merits and whiners but mainly talks about changing the whole Amarr way of doing things..Amarr use lasers and they armour tank..some ships suck..some suck so bad they blow..some are cool (me wuvs my lil Punisher, even if i sometimes fit it with auto cannons..COUGH..)..Amarr use lasers and armour tank and always will..leave it that way and give some ships and some lasers a lil bit of luv..just dont change the ethos of what Amarr are. Khanid however have broken away from the Amarr way of thinking and are embracing new technologies and ideas and so their ships should reflect this..this will add a cool new selection of ships to the game for all peeps (i tingle in my special place when thinking of 4 launchers on my vengeance)
Zeno Kang	Posted - 2006.08.02 15:39:00 - [270] I'm still new to Eve, and I fly Amarr ships. I'd like to ask you guys who've been playing for much longer than I have a question. Which Amarr ships are generally regarded as good ships versus their peers? I've not flown anything larger than a BC, and I've not flown T2 ships. My list (I'm a newb, remember) of Amarr ships that don't suck: 1. Punisher 2. Arbitrator Please let me know what a young Amarr pilot should be flying.
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 15:41:00 - [271] Originally by: Zeno Kang Make a new thread if you want more than 5 people to see your question :P TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Zeno Kang	Posted - 2006.08.02 15:54:00 - [272] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Zeno Kang Make a new thread if you want more than 5 people to see your question :P On the original topic: nice design principles, Sarmaul.
Luric Vizjier The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.02 22:59:00 - [273] Tuxford says: "I'm also working on the assault missiles, basically a short range option for cruiser sized missile users. Currently they give about 25% more damage over time and have a range of about 15km with no ship range bonuses. They use more grid than the heavy missile launcher but uses less CPU. All subject to further balancing once it goes on SISI of course." Wow, if only we got these nice Khanid changes assault launchers would be perfect for them. -----------------------------------------------
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 23:01:00 - [274] Originally by: Luric Vizjier They use more grid than the heavy missile launcher but uses less CPU. NOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Don't chance the Assault Launcher fitting reqs!!! TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Luric Vizjier The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.02 23:12:00 - [275] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Luric Vizjier They use more grid than the heavy missile launcher but uses less CPU. NOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Don't chance the Assault Launcher fitting reqs!!! lol, but this would go so perfectly in hand with your khanid ship ideas! more pg and less cpu = good for amarr. -----------------------------------------------
Antskyeeh The Priory	Posted - 2006.08.03 14:01:00 - [276] Back to page 1 we go.
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.03 14:23:00 - [277] Originally by: Luric Vizjier Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Luric Vizjier They use more grid than the heavy missile launcher but uses less CPU. NOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Don't chance the Assault Launcher fitting reqs!!! lol, but this would go so perfectly in hand with your khanid ship ideas! more pg and less cpu = good for amarr. Yes, but you forget that I fly minmatar and we have sucky PG to begin with :/ TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Jormunrek Amarr Mining Bytes Inc. Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.08.05 01:07:00 - [278] Hmm, this got to page 5. Back to page 1 for you! Jorm
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.05 11:25:00 - [279] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Luric Vizjier Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Luric Vizjier They use more grid than the heavy missile launcher but uses less CPU. NOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Don't chance the Assault Launcher fitting reqs!!! lol, but this would go so perfectly in hand with your khanid ship ideas! more pg and less cpu = good for amarr. Yes, but you forget that I fly minmatar and we have sucky PG to begin with :/ Nothing new here. Breacher, Stabber, Bellicose and Scythe got repeatedly kicked badly in the private parts by devs not having a single though about Minmatar ships in the Drone and Missile adjustment events in the past. Aren't we still waiting for any compensation on these ships beyond promises? --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Tomsudy Minmatar Order of the White Dragon	Posted - 2006.08.05 13:23:00 - [280] totally agree with the changes there, sacrilege is plagued by ****ty damage compared to other hacs these changes would give it some life ________________________________________ Order of the white dragon
KillerLU VakAtioth	Posted - 2006.08.09 07:45:00 - [281] oh at page 10. bump.
Antskyeeh The Priory	Posted - 2006.08.11 13:25:00 - [282] This ... thread ... must .... live on ...
Nyxus GALAXIAN	Posted - 2006.08.16 19:30:00 - [283] I would like to bring this to the forefront again. Khanid ships are probably the crappiest T2 ship line in the game. They need some revamping. This is a VERY good set of ideas to build from. I think everyone can agree to that. To Sarmaul, my brother from another mother. Even though you have been brought low by the powers that be, we here on the boards miss you and your input and mourn your passing. Your concept ideas were great, and everyone really appreciated your hard work in bringing them forward. Yes, you are Matari, but no one is perfect and we (try) not to hold it against you. I am glad you don't mind the bag over your head when speaking to the Amarr Consulate. ♥, Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Auryn Darkblade	Posted - 2006.08.16 19:40:00 - [284] This thread has my stamp of approval, as it may correct the slight Amarr imbalance that exsists now. Great job Sarmaul! -Auryn
High Sierra Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.15 13:13:00 - [285] bit slack at work today so ive been wandering through the threads and I came across this one. I'm wondering if anything was ever done about it?
Liisa Freelancing Corp	Posted - 2006.09.15 13:20:00 - [286] Probably not. However, it does stand out as a great example on how to propose decent changes to ships with the aim of balancing out some underused, underpowered ships instead of turning your favorite ship into a "solo pwnmobile". Pity the OP got banned, we need more of these. ----------------------------------
xenorx 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.09.15 13:37:00 - [287] No nothing has been done about this. I think most of the development teams are neck deep in Kali atm. I doubt any of this stuff like Khanid MK II or the Amarr situation in general is even being looked at right now. As much as I love new content, I wish they would take a step back for a few months and just devote 100% of thier time to fix things like this. Oh and Free Sarmaul. For a Minmitar he is not a bad little slave. Nice well thought out post. No one can hear you scream in space, so just shut up and die already.
Peter Stuyvesant Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.15 13:51:00 - [288] Originally by: xenorx Free Sarmaul. Q F T
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.09.15 14:02:00 - [289] Originally by: Peter Stuyvesant Originally by: xenorx Free Sarmaul. Q F T AMEN TO THAT. Oh and plz plz plz make Khanid missile spewing armor tankers. And if this is your plan Tux...... PLEASE LET US KNOW. WE HAVENT HEARD FROM YOU AND WE MISS YOU! <sniff, sniff> Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
McTaggart Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.15 14:10:00 - [290] An explanation of forum necromancy: Buried is where all the good threads are.
Scordite	Posted - 2006.09.15 14:55:00 - [291] Thanks for bumping this, not had a chance to read it before. Overall very nice suggestions, if devs would pick em up and balance/polish em a bit, it would calm down a lot of the amarr outcries. Also, most people seem to agree that these changes would be a step in the right direction, and not only amarrians at that. Anyways.. It seems like ew nerf must come before these changes, due to the flexibility of midslots on the proposed ships, especially the bigger ones. So, hopefully the prolonged seige warfare mentality of the amarr also translates to plenty of patience. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
CB Cyrix GeoTech	Posted - 2006.09.15 15:09:00 - [292] Edited by: CB Cyrix on 15/09/2006 15:12:21 I think this would fix alot of problems with Amarr. You can choose normal amarr for PvE and Khanid for PvP. Would give a nice spice to it all. A Khanid ship "should" be a great armour tanker with 100% of cap used for tank/EWAR etc. Its bonus should be for missiles and eiher armour resists or armour repair amount. It would be nice to fly a Malediction with this: 3x Rocket Launcher II 1x Small Nos II 1x 1mn MWD II 1x Webber 1x 7.5km Scram 1x Small Armour Rep II 1x Energized Adaptive Nano II/DM Control 1x Cap Power Relay Nice Tank, average damage, good tackler. PS. Why did Sarmaul get banned?!
Liisa Freelancing Corp	Posted - 2006.09.15 15:23:00 - [293] Edited by: Liisa on 15/09/2006 15:23:40 Originally by: CB Cyrix PS. Why did Sarmaul get banned?! The answer is buried somewhere here: The evil secrets If you want the quick answer go to page 4. ----------------------------------
Krist Valentine Amarr Bad Omen Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.15 15:31:00 - [294] Love the idea. If your ideas were in, I'd love the Khanid. At the moment, I despise their ships :P /signed. - - - - - Yarr?
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.09.15 15:37:00 - [295] Originally by: CB Cyrix 3x Rocket Launcher II 1x Small Nos II 1x 1mn MWD II 1x Webber 1x 7.5km Scram 1x Small Armour Rep II 1x Energized Adaptive Nano II/DM Control 1x Cap Power Relay Me wants. I do find myself preferring the Crusader over the Malediction when the tackling role isn't essential, and when I do need it I tend to use 20km's. This setup actually looks fun, though.
Szun Boob Heads	Posted - 2006.09.15 23:14:00 - [296] Signed! Khanid missle "boats" would also lighten up the "do we need explosive dmg crystals?" question. If Khanid ships get the much needed love and the "feel right" bonuses for missles and armor tank, the ex-"pure laser boats" would become much more flexible. /me Szun starts training missleskills again... now...where is the Khanid Battleship?
Luric Vizjier The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.15 23:38:00 - [297] Wow, I can't believe this thread is back, how far did someone have to dig into history to find this? Still great ideas, and honestly, judging by the Curse, it is also highly possible. -----------------------------------------------
Krist Valentine Amarr Bad Omen Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.16 15:01:00 - [298] Am I allowed to bump ideas so CCP read them? :D - - - - - Yarr?
Cosmo Raata Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.09.16 17:28:00 - [299] Originally by: Krist Valentine Am I allowed to bump ideas so CCP read them? :D If only it was that easy.....you see, Devs have posters & Pics of amarr ships, and they use them for toliet paper. Think they read our posts to fix amarr & they laugh. Soz, thats my first negative comment, i'm just getting frustrated because they dont seem to care.
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union	Posted - 2006.09.17 22:13:00 - [300] Edited by: Bardi MecAuldnis on 17/09/2006 22:14:21 As a Khanid pilot, I bump thee to page one!! Besides, it would make my missile skills far more useful. Daisetsunamono, protect my balls! Boku ga warui, so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
CB Apollo	Posted - 2006.09.18 08:15:00 - [301] Originally by: Bardi MecAuldnis Edited by: Bardi MecAuldnis on 17/09/2006 22:14:21 As a Khanid pilot, I bump thee to page one!! Besides, it would make my missile skills far more useful. Missiles + armour tank + some nos + EWAR = FUN!!!! Its like caldari armour tankers on speed
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union	Posted - 2006.09.21 00:49:00 - [302] Please Tux, you know you want it. Daisetsunamono, protect my balls! Boku ga warui, so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
Hitomi Ayame Amarr Royal Knights of Khanid	Posted - 2006.09.21 01:00:00 - [303] This thread = win! - - - The Royal Knights of Khanid are now recruiting! Step up and serve God and Khanid today!
Valea Silpha Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.21 01:49:00 - [304] See now this is a perfect example of the kind of thinking eve needs (thats minmatar thinking there boys ..). It boosts a lot of the ships ammar whine about, making them competitive but not uber. I heartily endorse the changes, simply becuase they make sense and would give the ammar a lot more variety, as well as making them have to train missile skills too. <Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head
Deren Thaldrel Minmatar Black Watch Legionnaires Babylon Project	Posted - 2006.09.25 16:37:00 - [305] Edited by: Deren Thaldrel on 25/09/2006 16:37:22 Now that I'm finally flying some of the Khanid made Amarr ships this thread and its great idea that makes a lot of sense.
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.03 00:03:00 - [306] Originally by: Valea Silpha See now this is a perfect example of the kind of thinking eve needs (thats minmatar thinking there boys ..). It boosts a lot of the ships ammar whine about, making them competitive but not uber. I heartily endorse the changes, simply becuase they make sense and would give the ammar a lot more variety, as well as making them have to train missile skills too. ooh, so true. See sniffing duct tape helps clear the mind, err... yeah This thread needs the attention, give the amarr what they need. Which is something other then a laser using armor tanking ship, they got a gazillion of those allready. ... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.03 00:35:00 - [307] AS A 3 YEAR OLD AMARR PILOT WITH OVER 10MIL SP IN GUNNERY I DONT WANT TO TRAIN FOR MISSILES AND WANT TO SEE ALL THOSE GUNNERY SPS HAVE A PURPOSE FIRST; IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND FOR U WHO WANT TO TURN AMARR INTO CALDARI? or should I also increase font size too?! Missiles are not an amarr weapon, if they were I sure would have had trained for them already, those of you who couldnt wait for amarr to get fixed and trained for a raven, well tough luck *******, amarr's secondary weapon is drones and no matter how much forum whorage you guys will put out its not gonna change to missiles so its in ur favor! now beat it.. Amarr got 3 concepts: - Gun boat: omen, geddon, its about turrets and pure dps - Tank boat: maller, apoc, these dont work very well cause in current EVE pvp "Gank > Tank" atm - Skirmish boat: EW and drones, crucifier, arbi and its variants.. Caldari got 3 concepts too: - Missile spammer: caracal, raven, etc - Rail sniper: moa, eagle, tier3 bs - ECM boat: pure ECM ownage, BB, scorp.. So does Gallente: - Gun boat: short range blaster pwnage, incursus, thorax, megathron, etc - Drone boat: designed for skirmishes rather than fleets, vexor, domi, etc - EW boat: remote sensor damps! maulus, celestis, etc... When you check out the T2 variants of these ships there is no new weapon system added, no ship exeeding the 3 main design concepts. I dont see an amarr missile spammer in there, nor do I see a caldari laser or drone boat.. T2 ships are enhanced versions of the 3 main design concepts, not something completely new and out of order!..
Hellspawn01 Amarr The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.03 01:04:00 - [308] Originally by: Kunming Lots of angry stuff The main point is to change the sacrilege cuz its just a weaker zealot. The other races have 2 very different HACs while amarr have a strong and a weaker one. Thats why we want the sacrilege to be turned into a missile boat. Btw, many other amarr ships have missiles already and a T2 missile shooting (not spamming like caldari) wouldnt ruin amarr. Ship lovers click here
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.03 02:18:00 - [309] Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 03/10/2006 02:23:17 Originally by: Kunming AS A 3 YEAR OLD AMARR PILOT WITH OVER 10MIL SP IN GUNNERY I DONT WANT TO TRAIN FOR MISSILES AND WANT TO SEE ALL THOSE GUNNERY SPS HAVE A PURPOSE FIRST; IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND FOR U WHO WANT TO TURN AMARR INTO CALDARI? or should I also increase font size too?! Missiles are not an amarr weapon, if they were I sure would have had trained for them already, those of you who couldnt wait for amarr to get fixed and trained for a raven, well tough luck *******, amarr's secondary weapon is drones and no matter how much forum whorage you guys will put out its not gonna change to missiles so its in ur favor! now beat it.. Amarr got 3 concepts: - Gun boat: omen, geddon, its about turrets and pure dps - Tank boat: maller, apoc, these dont work very well cause in current EVE pvp "Gank > Tank" atm - Skirmish boat: EW and drones, crucifier, arbi and its variants.. Caldari got 3 concepts too: - Missile spammer: caracal, raven, etc - Rail sniper: moa, eagle, tier3 bs - ECM boat: pure ECM ownage, BB, scorp.. So does Gallente: - Gun boat: short range blaster pwnage, incursus, thorax, megathron, etc - Drone boat: designed for skirmishes rather than fleets, vexor, domi, etc - EW boat: remote sensor damps! maulus, celestis, etc... When you check out the T2 variants of these ships there is no new weapon system added, no ship exeeding the 3 main design concepts. I dont see an amarr missile spammer in there, nor do I see a caldari laser or drone boat.. T2 ships are enhanced versions of the 3 main design concepts, not something completely new and out of order!.. 1. Khanid is a mix of Caldari tech and Amarr tech 2. Crucifier(hey omg, it's a amarr missile spammer) 3. Curse has 4 launcher hardpoints and only 2 turret hardpoints 4. lasers are the amarr turret weapon, not caldari, rails are caldari turret weapon. Armor tanking missile spamming Khanid ship wouldn't be so far fetched... (edit)oh it wouldn't be in my favour cause I'm calling for a boost of my racial enemy and I can't even fly amarr frigates... ... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.10.03 03:17:00 - [310] I strongly agree with the original post. the whole purpose for khanid was to introduce some variety into otherwise-uniform amarr characters. A person focusing on one race should have some choices within that race on whether they'd armour, shield tank or what weapons sytems they'd use. Minmatar have a rather broad range of use - be it drones, energy emission systems, close-up autocannons, long-range artillery, shield OR armour tanking or missile boats. It would only be fitting to afford amarr the same in form of khanid. Tuxford, please take note of this issue
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.03 11:22:00 - [311] Originally by: Reatu Krentor Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 03/10/2006 02:23:17 Originally by: Kunming ... 1. Khanid is a mix of Caldari tech and Amarr tech 2. Crucifier(hey omg, it's a amarr missile spammer) 3. Curse has 4 launcher hardpoints and only 2 turret hardpoints 4. lasers are the amarr turret weapon, not caldari, rails are caldari turret weapon. Armor tanking missile spamming Khanid ship wouldn't be so far fetched... (edit)oh it wouldn't be in my favour cause I'm calling for a boost of my racial enemy and I can't even fly amarr frigates... Show me an amarr T1 ship with missile bonus (except the inquisitor which is crappioli anyways.. out damaged by an IMICUS with 3 light drones) Replies to: 1. Khanid is meant to have integrated shield and EW techs from caldari, shield tanks meant as a defense against the armor melting projectile guns of minmatar, EW to compete with the other races. So a khanid ship either uses its mids to shield tank with lows used for dmg mods, or EW and lows used to armor tank, that IS versatility.. 2. Crucifier has a total of 0 (ZERO) missile hardpoints, its an EW frig for Amarr. Now I guess you probably meant the "inquisitor", every race got a missile spammer, they date back to the days when cruise-missiles would fit on frigates and it was only reasonable to give every race a missile capable bomber-frig. It does less dmg than an imicus (gallente MINING frigate). 3. Curse could have no turret or missile hardpoints for all I care, its main weapon is drones, supported by the NOS/Neutz you fit in those HI slots. It doesnt get a bonus for missiles and if it would, it would suck ass, and you know that! 4. I dont get your point here.. Check out my comment about 3 main design concepts. K here is a run down on HACs: Caldari: Moa -> Rail sniper Eagle -> Rail sniper Caracal -> Missile spammer Cerberus -> Missile spammer Minmatar: Stabber -> Hit and run AC-boat Vagabond -> Hit and run AC-boat Rupture -> close range tank AC-boat OR arty sniper Muininn -> close range tank AC-boat OR arty sniper Gallente: Thorax -> close range dmg dealer Deimos -> close range dmg dealer Vexor -> drone spammer Ishtar -> drone spammer T2 are enhanced versions of the T1 ships ppl have already trained for. There is no new weapon system added, no new skill tree required to use them. Amarr: Omen -> laser DPS boat Zealot -> Laser DPS boat Maller -> heavy tank laser boat Sacrelige -> heavy tank laser boat (And you want this to be a missile spammer?!!) There is not a single missile spammer (besides the utter crap inquisitor) in the Amarr design, so cut it off folks.. its not gonna happen! Lasers being easy to counter is another topic, definetly has nothing to do with khanid but rather EANMs and compensation skills + the fact no one shield tanks cause ECM is so uber.
Hellspawn01 Amarr The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.03 11:55:00 - [312] Originally by: Kunming Maller -> heavy tank laser boat Sacrelige -> heavy tank laser boat (And you want this to be a missile spammer?!!) There is not a single missile spammer (besides the utter crap inquisitor) in the Amarr design, so cut it off folks.. its not gonna happen! The problem is that the zealot and the sacrilege are armor tanked laser boats. Sac only has more resistances. As you already posted, each T2 variant is an upgraded version of its T1 version. But both amarr HACs are turret based, unlike the other races. Thats the problem. The maller is not a Khanid ship from the describtion, but the Sacrilege is. I dont see a problem there if you change it back to a missile ship. Btw, malediction is half missile/turrets with missile bonus and is a Khanid ship like the curse which has launcher slots too but no bonus for it. Ship lovers click here
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.03 12:18:00 - [313] Edited by: Scordite on 03/10/2006 12:18:29 Originally by: Kunming AS A 3 YEAR OLD AMARR PILOT WITH OVER 10MIL SP IN GUNNERY I DONT WANT TO TRAIN FOR MISSILES AND WANT TO SEE ALL THOSE GUNNERY SPS HAVE A PURPOSE FIRST; IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND FOR U WHO WANT TO TURN AMARR INTO CALDARI? or should I also increase font size too?! Hey, no one's forcing you to fly Khanid boats if they get changed. There are plenty of caldari pilots who only train missiles with some drones on the side, and just don't fly the railboats (or in the case of the ferox, put launchers on railboats). ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.03 12:24:00 - [314] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Kunming Maller -> heavy tank laser boat Sacrelige -> heavy tank laser boat (And you want this to be a missile spammer?!!) There is not a single missile spammer (besides the utter crap inquisitor) in the Amarr design, so cut it off folks.. its not gonna happen! The problem is that the zealot and the sacrilege are armor tanked laser boats. Sac only has more resistances. As you already posted, each T2 variant is an upgraded version of its T1 version. But both amarr HACs are turret based, unlike the other races. Thats the problem. The maller is not a Khanid ship from the describtion, but the Sacrilege is. I dont see a problem there if you change it back to a missile ship. Btw, malediction is half missile/turrets with missile bonus and is a Khanid ship like the curse which has launcher slots too but no bonus for it. The missiles were added later on to Amarr, I dont know how long you have been with EVE, but back when the malediction first came out it had 3 turrets with no missiles and only 2 were visual. Also show me 1 pilot in EVE that makes use of the EM missile dmg bonus on these Amarr ships.. Bringing up single ships with missile bonus/hardpoints wont help your cause, show me T1 ships, since T2 ships should be the enhanced versions of them not completely new designs. Amarr have used drones as secondary or as second main weapon, they have bonus' to drones or have big drone bays (geddon). Also the whole idea of Khanid design has always attracted my protest: Gallente have Roden (turrets) and Creodon (drones) Caldari have Lai Dai (missiles) and Ishukone (rails) soforth.. you telling me: Amarr have Viziam (turrets) and Khanid Inovations (missiles) ?! Why cant there be an Amarr ship corporation bulding ships inline with the Amarr design concept, while other races have this perfectly covered?! Gallente train for turrets and drones and can use all their ships. Caldari train for turrets and missiles and can use all their ships. Amarr have to train for turrets, drones AND missiles to use all their ships? If I wanted to use missiles I'd train for caldari, I'd advise you to do the same if u havent already..
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.03 12:31:00 - [315] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Kunming ... ... Show me an amarr T1 ship with missile bonus (except the inquisitor which is crappioli anyways.. out damaged by an IMICUS with 3 light drones) Inquisitor(yes I meant this one) is the only T1 amarr ship with a missile bonus, bonuses aren't everything however. Originally by: Kunming Replies to: 1. Khanid is meant to have integrated shield and EW techs from caldari, shield tanks meant as a defense against the armor melting projectile guns of minmatar, EW to compete with the other races. So a khanid ship either uses its mids to shield tank with lows used for dmg mods, or EW and lows used to armor tank, that IS versatility.. Weird how the Sacrilege has an armor resist bonus yet, according to you, is intended to shield tank. Nice way of ignoring the bonus though I thought you considered them essential... Originally by: Kunming 2. Crucifier has a total of 0 (ZERO) missile hardpoints, its an EW frig for Amarr. Now I guess you probably meant the "inquisitor", every race got a missile spammer, they date back to the days when cruise-missiles would fit on frigates and it was only reasonable to give every race a missile capable bomber-frig. It does less dmg than an imicus (gallente MINING frigate). indeed I meant the inquisitor there. Not every race has a missile spammer, Gallente doesn't have one if by missile spammer you mean it has to have a bonus to missiles. However there is the Tristan that sports 2 launcher slots but no bonus anywhere for them, must not be a missile using ship then... Originally by: Kunming 3. Curse could have no turret or missile hardpoints for all I care, its main weapon is drones, supported by the NOS/Neutz you fit in those HI slots. It doesnt get a bonus for missiles and if it would, it would suck ass, and you know that! Why does it absolutely need to have a bonus to be usefull, if it did need a bonus surely using projectiles on Apocs would be silly to the extreme, yet it is done... Just because it doesn't have a bonus doesn't mean you can't use the weapons. Originally by: Kunming 4. I dont get your point here.. Check out my comment about 3 main design concepts. I just meant you mentioned that there was no caldari ship with a laser bonus. But lasers are the amarr turret weapon just like rails are the caldari turret weapon. And caldari turret ships do exist. Originally by: Kunming K here is a run down on HACs: Caldari: Moa -> Rail sniper Eagle -> Rail sniper Caracal -> Missile spammer Cerberus -> Missile spammer Minmatar: Stabber -> Hit and run AC-boat Vagabond -> Hit and run AC-boat Rupture -> close range tank AC-boat OR arty sniper Muininn -> close range tank AC-boat OR arty sniper Gallente: Thorax -> close range dmg dealer Deimos -> close range dmg dealer Vexor -> drone spammer Ishtar -> drone spammer T2 are enhanced versions of the T1 ships ppl have already trained for. There is no new weapon system added, no new skill tree required to use them. Amarr: Omen -> laser DPS boat Zealot -> Laser DPS boat Maller -> heavy tank laser boat Sacrelige -> heavy tank laser boat (And you want this to be a missile spammer?!!) Khanid is not amarr, Khanid can be different, the progression to T2 doesn't have to be just an improvement of the T1 design. couple of examples: Merlin -> Rail Sniper Harpy -> Rail Sniper Hawk -> missile spammer(not a rail sniper is it? Don't try and brush it off as being based on kestrel because the hull is Merlin not Kestrel.) Bellicose -> EW-Gunboat Huginn -> EW with turrets and launchers ... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.03 12:34:00 - [316] Originally by: Kunming Gallente train for turrets and drones and can use all their ships. Caldari train for turrets and missiles and can use all their ships. Amarr have to train for turrets, drones AND missiles to use all their ships? I don't think I've ever talked to a caldari player over 1 year old who can't use tech2 drones. Several of them can't even fit large hybrids though. Why is it bad for amarr players to have the option of making such choices as well? Sorry, I just think "I dun' wanna train teh missile skillz" is a seriously bad argument. No one's forcing you. And hey, even if these changes went live as suggested by Sammaul, you'd still have the option of using lasers on the Khanid boats, since they retain their cap use discount. It's just like missile feroxes, and fate knows there are plenty of those around. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.03 12:43:00 - [317] Brutix -> Blasterboat with tank bonus Astarte -> Blasterboat with tank bonus Eos -> Blaster/droneboat with tank bonus Ferox -> Rail Sniper Nighthawk -> missile spammer Originally by: Kunming There is not a single missile spammer (besides the utter crap inquisitor) in the Amarr design, so cut it off folks.. its not gonna happen! Lasers being easy to counter is another topic, definetly has nothing to do with khanid but rather EANMs and compensation skills + the fact no one shield tanks cause ECM is so uber. I remember you mentioned drones are a secondary weapon of the Amarr, yet missiles aren't. Explain that to me, you claim inquisitor can't be counted because it's crap yet you count the Arbitrator(which is also the only Amarr ship with any drone bonuses) as proving drones are a secondary weapon of the Amarr? If you don't count the only amarr missile spammer you can't count the only drone spammer either... If you want to wallow in mediocrity and blandness of the Amarr(practically everything is a tanking laser boat) that's completely up to you. But tbh amarr needs more variety. Just because you refuse to train missiles, doesn't mean someone else won't either. If you want to limit yourself like that, kthxbye. I fly solely minmatar and I've trained missiles, projectiles, drones, shield and armor tanking to use all ships to the best of my abilities. ... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.03 12:49:00 - [318] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Kunming Maller -> heavy tank laser boat Sacrelige -> heavy tank laser boat (And you want this to be a missile spammer?!!) There is not a single missile spammer (besides the utter crap inquisitor) in the Amarr design, so cut it off folks.. its not gonna happen! The problem is that the zealot and the sacrilege are armor tanked laser boats. Sac only has more resistances. As you already posted, each T2 variant is an upgraded version of its T1 version. But both amarr HACs are turret based, unlike the other races. Thats the problem. The maller is not a Khanid ship from the describtion, but the Sacrilege is. I dont see a problem there if you change it back to a missile ship. Btw, malediction is half missile/turrets with missile bonus and is a Khanid ship like the curse which has launcher slots too but no bonus for it. The missiles were added later on to Amarr, I dont know how long you have been with EVE, but back when the malediction first came out it had 3 turrets with no missiles and only 2 were visual. Also show me 1 pilot in EVE that makes use of the EM missile dmg bonus on these Amarr ships.. Bringing up single ships with missile bonus/hardpoints wont help your cause, show me T1 ships, since T2 ships should be the enhanced versions of them not completely new designs. Amarr have used drones as secondary or as second main weapon, they have bonus' to drones or have big drone bays (geddon). Also the whole idea of Khanid design has always attracted my protest: Gallente have Roden (turrets) and Creodon (drones) Caldari have Lai Dai (missiles) and Ishukone (rails) soforth.. you telling me: Amarr have Viziam (turrets) and Khanid Inovations (missiles) ?! Why cant there be an Amarr ship corporation bulding ships inline with the Amarr design concept, while other races have this perfectly covered?! Gallente train for turrets and drones and can use all their ships. Caldari train for turrets and missiles and can use all their ships. Amarr have to train for turrets, drones AND missiles to use all their ships? If I wanted to use missiles I'd train for caldari, I'd advise you to do the same if u havent already.. I was working on my huge post when this came in. It's funny how you keep avoiding mentioning minmatar... Could it be ?! Could it be you intentionally avoid them because Minmatar actually have to train turrets, drones AND missiles to use all their ships(heck one ship needs all 3) BTW Roden Shipyards is missiles not turrets , seriously check the Ares, Eris and Lachesis. Duvolle Labs is blaster, confirm on Taranis and Deimos. Khanid Innovations is not missiles persT, more a marriage of Amarr and Caldari Tech(like Roden Shipyards is with gallente and caldari). ... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Hellspawn01 Amarr The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.03 13:09:00 - [319] Originally by: Kunming Amarr: Omen -> laser DPS boat Zealot -> Laser DPS boat Problem #1 Originally by: Kunming Maller -> heavy tank laser boat Sacrelige -> heavy tank laser boat (And you want this to be a missile spammer?!!) As you remember, it was a missile boat at first and it did great except for mixed bonuses. Btw, I¦m 7d away from my 3rd anniversary and I remember the bugged turrets on the malediction. Currently its a very good ship with the missile bonus. An amarr ship that can actually fight even without a lock. OMG! Ship lovers click here
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.03 13:43:00 - [320] ...continued! Yep ur right about Roden and Duvolle, though roden ships have split weapon system and suck since one bonus is always ignored. Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Kunming Amarr: Omen -> laser DPS boat Zealot -> Laser DPS boat Problem #1 Originally by: Kunming Maller -> heavy tank laser boat Sacrelige -> heavy tank laser boat (And you want this to be a missile spammer?!!) As you remember, it was a missile boat at first and it did great except for mixed bonuses. Btw, I¦m 7d away from my 3rd anniversary and I remember the bugged turrets on the malediction. Currently its a very good ship with the missile bonus. An amarr ship that can actually fight even without a lock. OMG! I wouldnt know whats the problem with laser dps boats, they used to work miracles before the pulse lasers and dmg mod stacking got nerfed. Malediction sux cause it had split weapon systems, just like the Ares, the eris, lachesis, phoon and the like... We are living in a world where GANK > TANK, for split weapons the moment you fit a dmg mod for one weapon system you are falling back behind the other ships. On a different topic now, CCPs versatility mentality: split weapon and tanking system with split bonus'.. seriously it simply sux! My versatility mentality: the ability to fit either armor or shield tank, decide between EW or gank, or tank or a slight mix of all. Mixing weapon systems is crap, since its all strongly tied up with the ships bonus and future use of dmg mods. I'm defending my point all alone here against the mass' who already have trained for caldari and missile.. so Sure go ahead, make an Amarr missile spammer HAC, missile spammer BS, and whatever floats your boat, they will be out dmged by caldari missile spammers, and wont have the true versatility that makes caldari missile boats work. Now scrap the pages long discussions here; all I know is Amarr drone boats work good (so I trained for them OFC), and Amarr missile boats dont work and barely exist anyway.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.03 13:43:00 - [321] Originally by: Reatu Krentor Weird how the Sacrilege has an armor resist bonus yet, according to you, is intended to shield tank. Nice way of ignoring the bonus though I thought you considered them essential... Taken from Sacrilege desciption: In an effort to maintain the fragile peace with the old empire through the force of determent, Khanid Innovation have taken the Maller blueprint and morphed it into a monster. State-of-the-art armor alloys, along with shield technology culled from the Caldari, mean the Sacrilege may be well on its way to becoming the Royal Khanid Navy's flagship cruiser. Sacrilege also had more shields than armor just before RMR or some other patch (cant be arsed to check right now). Instead of increasing its mid slots it got crappified by suxford. Originally by: Reatu Krentor indeed I meant the inquisitor there. Not every race has a missile spammer, Gallente doesn't have one if by missile spammer you mean it has to have a bonus to missiles. However there is the Tristan that sports 2 launcher slots but no bonus anywhere for them, must not be a missile using ship then... Tristan is as far as gallente missile usage goes, yep true, gallente are also the most anti-caldari race out there, armor tanks intead of shield, short range instead of long range, drones instead of missiles. If gallente training touched missiles, it would be insane, you'd have to train for hybrids, drones AND missiles, just like you're suggesting Amarr to do! Originally by: Reatu Krentor Why does it absolutely need to have a bonus to be usefull, if it did need a bonus surely using projectiles on Apocs would be silly to the extreme, yet it is done... Just because it doesn't have a bonus doesn't mean you can't use the weapons. You have to work towards the bonus of the ship or else you could just train another race that has bonus' to the modules you want to use. Projectiles on Apocs work fine cause lasers sux ass, and its not only apocs, ACs work better than lasers on a crusader which has even a dmg bonus to lasers. Its simply cause lasers suck these days. Now lets look at another example, vexor: it has hybrid dmg and drone bonus, but since NOS+ECM+Drones combo is much more powerful than Hybrids+ECM+Drones the dmg bonus is ignored. Once NOS and ECM are nerfed some other problems will be obvious to the community, like blaster boats being out dmged by drone boats.. Bonus are the most important aspect of a ship, after that comes slot layout and stats. Originally by: Reatu Krentor Khanid is not amarr, Khanid can be different, the progression to T2 doesn't have to be just an improvement of the T1 design. couple of examples: Merlin -> Rail Sniper Harpy -> Rail Sniper Hawk -> missile spammer(not a rail sniper is it? Don't try and brush it off as being based on kestrel because the hull is Merlin not Kestrel.) First off, if Khanid design is not Amarr it better be turned into faction ships where it really belongs, with Amarr and caldari as training requirements. Second, your analogy with the merlin is seriously lacking, lets take the incursus: -> Ishkur: Drones Enyo: Hybrids Nothign wrong here, hybrids and drones are the main weapon of gallente, just like the Merlin and its variants, missile spamming and rail sniping is caldari. T2 ships emphasize on the races' own strengths (while faction ships create hybrids between 2 races, thats why Khanid belongs to faction ships not Amarr T2 ships) and dont bring in new concepts, we dont see a T2 merlin suddenly have a drone bay and bonus, no it has missiles and rails as choices, like it should. Yes I avoided minmatar on purpose just cause of your comment, the only ship you gotta train missiles for is the phoon, you can fly almost all other minmatar ships no problems with no missile skills at all, just like you can fly gallente ships with no missile skills, or all caldari ships with no drone skills. next page...
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.03 14:21:00 - [322] Originally by: Kunming I'm defending my point all alone here against the mass' who already have trained for caldari and missile.. so Sure go ahead, make an Amarr missile spammer HAC, missile spammer BS, and whatever floats your boat, they will be out dmged by caldari missile spammers, and wont have the true versatility that makes caldari missile boats work. At least it will be something else than pewpew armorrepper. I seriously don't understand why you think this is a bad thing. As I've already said several times, no one's forcing you to fly them. What's your personal interest in this anyways? Do you fly a Khanid boat you don't want to get changed? Or are you afraid the suggested changes will make them "work good" so you have to "train for them OFC" like some kind of compulsive bandwagoner? Or maybe you're roleplaying a conservative extremist? For the record, I can fly gallente frigs, all other spaceship command skills are in amarr ships. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.03 14:52:00 - [323] Originally by: Scordite Originally by: Kunming I'm defending my point all alone here against the mass' who already have trained for caldari and missile.. so Sure go ahead, make an Amarr missile spammer HAC, missile spammer BS, and whatever floats your boat, they will be out dmged by caldari missile spammers, and wont have the true versatility that makes caldari missile boats work. At least it will be something else than pewpew armorrepper. I seriously don't understand why you think this is a bad thing. As I've already said several times, no one's forcing you to fly them. What's your personal interest in this anyways? Do you fly a Khanid boat you don't want to get changed? Or are you afraid the suggested changes will make them "work good" so you have to "train for them OFC" like some kind of compulsive bandwagoner? Or maybe you're roleplaying a conservative extremist? For the record, I can fly gallente frigs, all other spaceship command skills are in amarr ships. Amarr lack of versatility doesnt come for using lasers (though EM dmg is certainly a problem on its own) it comes from the lack of mid slots. Laser using, shield tanking Khanid boat makes much more sense in terms of versatility, you can EW it, shield tank it, put all sorta wierd setups on it.. Lets look at the missile spamming, armor tanking Khanid boat: - cool I can armor tank.. which I could do before too and is less efficient than shield tanking! - great I spam missiles, can finally use explosive dmg (though I doubt its gonna get any other bonus than an EM missile bonus), other races can do that without having to train for a whole new skill-tree/weapon-system. - excellent I can spam missile, fit jammers in the mids and armor tank.. tough luck caldari can do that much better than you already with their own missile spammers. Lets loot at the missile spamming, shield tanking Khanid boat: well whats the difference from caldari boats now? None, besides they can do it better than amarr anyway. I dont have any personal interest besides the ones I already stated: having choosen the turret races (Amarr and gallente, both got armor, turrets and drones, with minimal missiles in some of their T2 ships) and specialized in them I dont want to be forced to train for missiles just to use 50% of their T2 ships efficiently. My purpose here is to help Amarr and finally make Khanid ships worthwhile and special. If I was minmatar speced I'd be putting forward arguements about the crappiness of split weapon systems. Also, bandwagoning? hardly!, I fly ships for their sheer crappiness and win fights, just to play EVE in hard-mode, which gives me a higher sense of accomplishment than I would pull out a domi and jam/nos the hell outta ur soul.. I believe in racial warfare and concentrate on their design concepts, training for what they have to offer OFC..
Hellspawn01 Amarr The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.03 14:58:00 - [324] Originally by: Kunming My purpose here is to help Amarr and finally make Khanid ships worthwhile and special. Thats the complete opposite of what you posted before. You dont want the sac to be boosted into something that makes it more worthwhile and special. Ship lovers click here
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.03 15:06:00 - [325] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Kunming My purpose here is to help Amarr and finally make Khanid ships worthwhile and special. Thats the complete opposite of what you posted before. You dont want the sac to be boosted into something that makes it more worthwhile and special. Now you are starting to spread lies.. Quote me where I said I dont want the khanid boats to be worthwhile. I dont want the Khanid ships to be changed into missile spammers, which is hardly a boost or special IMO, if you check out my 3 possible variations of khanid design (shield+lasers, armor+missiles, shield+missiles) you will see that the missile versions are the least special and favourable concepts.
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.03 16:00:00 - [326] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/10/2006 16:01:43 I dont need another "copy XXX ship" idea as khanids. Using lasers+shields is copying some minmatar ship designs and some caldari ones (moa, eagle, sleipnir). Shield+missiles do exist (most caldari boats) missiles+armor... only phoon comes to my ming (and armor tanked raven but their armopr tanks are pretty weak). If khanids were to fill any niche then missiles+armor would be the best way. And if you want to use khanids in hard mode - try em BEFORE they got laser damage. They worked for me way better. Why didnt they work for you? EDIT: so responding in the same way as you: if i wanted to use shields+guns i would train for caldari or minmatar. I trained amarr for ARMOR.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.03 19:32:00 - [327] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/10/2006 16:01:43 I dont need another "copy XXX ship" idea as khanids. Using lasers+shields is copying some minmatar ship designs and some caldari ones (moa, eagle, sleipnir). Shield+missiles do exist (most caldari boats) missiles+armor... only phoon comes to my ming (and armor tanked raven but their armopr tanks are pretty weak). If khanids were to fill any niche then missiles+armor would be the best way. And if you want to use khanids in hard mode - try em BEFORE they got laser damage. They worked for me way better. Why didnt they work for you? EDIT: so responding in the same way as you: if i wanted to use shields+guns i would train for caldari or minmatar. I trained amarr for ARMOR. How can you possibly compare 'shield + rails' and 'shield + projectiles' with 'shield + lasers'. Shield + lasers will be very cap dependant thats why its gonna be quite balanced and very fun to fly. You will have to fit nos to sustain your shield tank but once you're in range you'll have a better tank than armor tank and will be putting out DPS from the lasers (lows can be used for heat sinks), or fit a small armor tank and EW instead. FYI I dont have shield skills neither, but instead of training for missiles which will only help me use the other 50% of amarr T2 ships, I rather train for shields which will have a much broader field of usage.
JoeT Amarr Short Attention Span	Posted - 2006.10.03 19:43:00 - [328] that i like. Different way of using amarr ships. wouldnt complain if this happened :) --- I need a sig :(
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.03 19:51:00 - [329] Originally by: Kunming How can you possibly compare 'shield + rails' and 'shield + projectiles' with 'shield + lasers'. Shield + lasers will be very cap dependant thats why its gonna be quite balanced and very fun to fly. You will have to fit nos to sustain your shield tank but once you're in range you'll have a better tank than armor tank and will be putting out DPS from the lasers (lows can be used for heat sinks), or fit a small armor tank and EW instead. FYI I dont have shield skills neither, but instead of training for missiles which will only help me use the other 50% of amarr T2 ships, I rather train for shields which will have a much broader field of usage. Im comparing hybrids+shields because they are also pretty cap intensive. Also its still gun+shield system, where armor+missile almost doesnt exist in game. If you want to use shieldtank+nosf+lasers (also lasers take up nosf slots and vice-versa) you may as well fly pilgrim. Lasers + place for ECM and little (or even heavy) armor tank. As for training shields/missile skills: i dont like shields, period. I have only small missile skills that are enough to operate (and get more out of) existing amarr ships like sacri (oh it got nerfed), veng, male, heretic and damnation (when i get to it). Moving from armor +missile/laser boats (as they are now) to shield+laser will mean that as PURE amarr character (yes i cant fly anything else at all) i will have yet another wasted skills. If they were using missiles then its a big NO to removing em. And still: either missiles+armor or dont touch em at all and leave em as they are. CCP managed to break sacri for me already and i'd prefer to have rest of ships intact.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.03 20:36:00 - [330] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im comparing hybrids+shields because they are also pretty cap intensive. Also its still gun+shield system, where armor+missile almost doesnt exist in game. There are almost as many armor+missile platforms as there are shield+hybrid platforms and as many as there are shield+projectile platforms. The fact that you generalize hybrids/projectiles/lasers under a single category called "guns" can not be taken as a viable arguement simply cause training individually for hybrids or any other turret takes just as long and even longer than training for missiles. Originally by: Deva Blackfire If you want to use shieldtank+nosf+lasers (also lasers take up nosf slots and vice-versa) you may as well fly pilgrim. Lasers + place for ECM and little (or even heavy) armor tank. You see, how this sounds so much more Amarr since you're saying it your self, though I gotta say curse has a better shield tank and both ships use drones and a combination of nos/neutz in HIs instead of lasers as dmg. The sacrilege I had in mind would have 6/5/4 (HML) slot layout with 4 turrets and 3 launchers, the armor resist changed to shield resist, or a shield boost, or shield capacity bonus, and the laser optimal changed to a second laser dmg bonus or Nos suck amount bonus, RoF bonus would mean more dmg than zealot which is not what we want. Originally by: Deva Blackfire As for training shields/missile skills: i dont like shields, period. I have only small missile skills that are enough to operate (and get more out of) existing amarr ships like sacri (oh it got nerfed), veng, male, heretic and damnation (when i get to it). Moving from armor +missile/laser boats (as they are now) to shield+laser will mean that as PURE amarr character (yes i cant fly anything else at all) i will have yet another wasted skills. If they were using missiles then its a big NO to removing em. And still: either missiles+armor or dont touch em at all and leave em as they are. CCP managed to break sacri for me already and i'd prefer to have rest of ships intact. We are sitting in the same boat dude, I got nada shield and minimal missile skills (infact more missile than shield) but how about we but our selfish requests aside and discuss about what would be best for Amarr; we already got enough boring ships that just sit there tank and then F1-F8, and thats what its gonna be with missiles, activate tank then F1, F2, F3...
Wodin Drukvik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.03 20:56:00 - [331] You seem to be making two arguments, Kunming - one is that the proposed revamp would not be "Amarrian" enough because it uses a weapons system only really seen on a few ships(Inquisitor, Malediction, Arbitrator, Omen, Curse, Sacrilege, Prophecy, Absolution, Damnation, and Apoc) as its primary motivation. I would argue that the ships in their proposed form(armor tanked, very hard to kill missile spammers) would be more Amarrian than the current confused hybrids that exist now(fill the turrets, then do something with the leftovers and hope it's as good as the other ship in its class). Why? Because the primary concern is not the weapons system, which you're focusing on, but rather the tank and using Caldari technology to make that extremely strong tank viable on the field of battle. All Amarrian "tank" ships have the cognitive dissonance problem in that they spend their own most precious resource(cap) wantonly to attempt to kill their opposition, and in doing so contribute to their own death. That's the reason we see so many autocannon Punisher/Maller/Prophecy setups - even with the crappy, crappy damage that unbonused ACs do, it's still better than losing the fight specifically because you went into the field with two counterproductive ideas. Part of the genius of the original post was that it was an acknowledgement of the reality of this situation, and worked with that reality to make a thematically clean setup. The other point you're trying to put forward is that the ships should instead be revamped differently, with the idea that they are extremely cap-intensive shield-tanking laserboats. However, this would require much more significant rebalancing than the proposed changes, because in every instance slot setups would need to shift to make shield-tanking viable. Further, as Deva noted, there are already two classes of shield-tank + gunnery setups - the Moa -> Ferox -> Eagle -> Rokh line of Caldari ships, and the Minmatar line of inherently more powerful active shield tanks(BC -> Command Ship -> Tier 3 BS). Changing the Khanid designs to your suggestion would directly step on the toes of one of those two specialities, which is problematic from a design point of view. Whether or not the difference in weapons system is enough, the point remains that there are a distinct lack of possible alternate bonuses to incentivize shieldtanking - remember that a built-in amp is already taken by Minmatar, and a built-in Invuln(what would be the natural fit) is already taken by Caldari.
Zosimos Sabina Amarr Loot	Posted - 2006.10.03 20:59:00 - [332] shields and lasers is boring, i'd rather see missiles and armor. You're going to need cap injection to sustain a heavy (boost+amp, or 2x rep) tank, just like armor tanking, so I don't see any efficiency difference tbh. Amarr tank ships have this fundamental flaw of trying to tank well and use the most cap intensive weapons in the game. It's impossible, which is why trying to give them an uber tank ship isn't going to work out. You will always need cap injection, which anybody with a free midslot can do. Using capless missiles is a different story. You might see some sustainable passive setups then, since you don't need a web with missiles either, freeing up slots for cap regen.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.03 21:21:00 - [333] Originally by: Wodin Drukvik You seem to be making two arguments, Kunming - one is that the proposed revamp would not be "Amarrian" enough because it uses a weapons system only really seen on a few ships(Inquisitor, Malediction, Arbitrator, Omen, Curse, Sacrilege, Prophecy, Absolution, Damnation, and Apoc) as its primary motivation. I would argue that the ships in their proposed form(armor tanked, very hard to kill missile spammers) would be more Amarrian than the current confused hybrids that exist now(fill the turrets, then do something with the leftovers and hope it's as good as the other ship in its class). Why? Because the primary concern is not the weapons system, which you're focusing on, but rather the tank and using Caldari technology to make that extremely strong tank viable on the field of battle. All Amarrian "tank" ships have the cognitive dissonance problem in that they spend their own most precious resource(cap) wantonly to attempt to kill their opposition, and in doing so contribute to their own death. That's the reason we see so many autocannon Punisher/Maller/Prophecy setups - even with the crappy, crappy damage that unbonused ACs do, it's still better than losing the fight specifically because you went into the field with two counterproductive ideas. Part of the genius of the original post was that it was an acknowledgement of the reality of this situation, and worked with that reality to make a thematically clean setup. The other point you're trying to put forward is that the ships should instead be revamped differently, with the idea that they are extremely cap-intensive shield-tanking laserboats. However, this would require much more significant rebalancing than the proposed changes, because in every instance slot setups would need to shift to make shield-tanking viable. Further, as Deva noted, there are already two classes of shield-tank + gunnery setups - the Moa -> Ferox -> Eagle -> Rokh line of Caldari ships, and the Minmatar line of inherently more powerful active shield tanks(BC -> Command Ship -> Tier 3 BS). Changing the Khanid designs to your suggestion would directly step on the toes of one of those two specialities, which is problematic from a design point of view. Whether or not the difference in weapons system is enough, the point remains that there are a distinct lack of possible alternate bonuses to incentivize shieldtanking - remember that a built-in amp is already taken by Minmatar, and a built-in Invuln(what would be the natural fit) is already taken by Caldari. Well analysed... So how about giving it a shield cap usage reduction per lvl, it wont be as good of a tank as caldari but it will be cap efficient instead (something different simply).
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.10.03 22:39:00 - [334] Edited by: Kldraina on 03/10/2006 22:40:02 I still think the Sac should be 6-5-5 with -10% laser cap use, and 5% armor resists as cruiser bonus (same as now) plus 5% improved rof for missiles, and 5% shield resists as HAC skill bonus. Would make it extremely versatile, as well as tank oriented (it uses a tank ship as it's base). It would make the Sac a real wild card.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.03 23:07:00 - [335] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 03/10/2006 23:09:49 Imho shield+laser would be just as bad or even worse than what we have now. It would be too damn cap intensive, and people would probably use the medslots for EW and armortank anyway, much like it is done with a lot of Ravens these days. What we end up with is just bad ships again. (I also wonder where that 'shieldtank is better than armortank' notion comes from, in my experience that is only true for Gist tanks which I don't think should play a big role in balancing since theyre mainly used for PvE anyway). And while we are at that, missile using armortanks would actually create some very viable alternatives for PvE against non-Blood/Sansha/Amarr enemies too which I am sure would please the quite voluminous PvE crowd, while shieldtanking lasers would most likely be completely worthless for PvE (and PvP as well I think). Not to mention missiles are easier to learn from scratch than shieldtanking. I am somehow getting the impression that the only thing really going against the missile+armortank idea is some sort of misplaced pride for using lasers. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.04 03:55:00 - [336] Originally by: Kunming Amarr lack of versatility doesnt come for using lasers (though EM dmg is certainly a problem on its own) it comes from the lack of mid slots. Incidentally, every Khanid ship has a decent number of mids considering they are amarr. 3 on both frigs, 4 on the sacri. This point aside, I'm not sure versatility on a single ship scale is a desireable goal. Jack-of-all-trade ships are, quite frankly, poo. Specialized ships work really well when they're capable of getting into the position where they can use their strenghts (pilgrim being the prime example). The kind of versatility we're talking about here is between the Khanid ships and the rest of amarr. Just like caldari have a rail-centric line of ships, and gallente have their drone bonus ships and their blasterboats. Originally by: Kunming Lets look at the missile spamming, armor tanking Khanid boat: - cool I can armor tank.. which I could do before too and is less efficient than shield tanking! - great I spam missiles, can finally use explosive dmg (though I doubt its gonna get any other bonus than an EM missile bonus), other races can do that without having to train for a whole new skill-tree/weapon-system. - excellent I can spam missile, fit jammers in the mids and armor tank.. tough luck caldari can do that much better than you already with their own missile spammers. - Yep, armor tank, just like before. Only now you have more cap to make it run, due to not flinging your lifeblood towards the enemy through your lasers. - Yep, can vary damage types. Keep in mind by the way, that the EM missile bonus is exclusively used for frigs, simply to reduce the lag caused by rocket spammers with RoF bonus. Larger ships can (and do, see phoon) have RoF launcher bonus (or damage, or missile velocity, or whatever you want to give it) without problems. - Here's where you're wrong. A caldari boat will never, ever armor tank as well as a HAC with tech2 resists, resist bonus from the ship, not using cap to power weapons, with twice the number of low slots. And that's what Khanid is about mainly, powerful tank. Who cares if the similar caldari missile spammers outdamage it? Who cares if the similar caldari missile boats have more ecm? Originally by: Kunming Lets loot at the missile spamming, shield tanking Khanid boat: well whats the difference from caldari boats now? None, besides they can do it better than amarr anyway. Which is why this isn't even an option. If people want shield+missiles they'll train caldari. Originally by: Kunming Also, bandwagoning? hardly!, I fly ships for their sheer crappiness and win fights, just to play EVE in hard-mode, which gives me a higher sense of accomplishment than I would pull out a domi and jam/nos the hell outta ur soul.. Yeah, that was a low shot, sorry. Originally by: Kunming I believe in racial warfare and concentrate on their design concepts, training for what they have to offer OFC.. Maybe the conservative extremist comment was closer to the mark then ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.04 12:55:00 - [337] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Wodin Drukvik ... Well analysed... So how about giving it a shield cap usage reduction per lvl, it wont be as good of a tank as caldari but it will be cap efficient instead (something different simply). nice to see you have calmed down a bit Kunming . I'd have to agree that shield and laser combo isn't very prudent, the cap requirements of both is high. Shield cap usage reduction could be interesting but it would have to be quite high to justify the laser-shield combo I'd think. And just because the current description of the Sacrilege mentions shields as the caldari influence doesn't mean it can't be changed. I'll remind you of "XXX has an unusually high structural integrity for a minmatar ship". In the end everyone(you too) so far in this thread has had the exact same goal, to improve the amarr. Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Scordite	Posted - 2006.10.04 13:47:00 - [338] Hehe if the sacrilege was given a shield boost cap use reduction big enough to make it capable of running shield tank + lasers, and made a turret boat, everyone would fit projectiles on it. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.04 13:53:00 - [339] Originally by: Scordite Hehe if the sacrilege was given a shield boost cap use reduction big enough to make it capable of running shield tank + lasers, and made a turret boat, everyone would fit projectiles on it. Actually i tought the same :?
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.04 14:12:00 - [340] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Scordite Hehe if the sacrilege was given a shield boost cap use reduction big enough to make it capable of running shield tank + lasers, and made a turret boat, everyone would fit projectiles on it. Actually i tought the same :? Hadn't considered that... Though it makes sense. Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Derrios Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.04 17:04:00 - [341] Originally by: Kenan Waroria Hulls: Malediction = T2 Executioner Vengeance = T2 Punisher Sacrilege = T2 Maller Damnation = T2 Prophecy Very thoughtfull posts. I¦m a bit sceptical on the Sacrilege as it would have a nasty tank and DPS as an Cerberus, might be a bit to good. But a solution could be to give Cerberus a 5% shield resistance instead of Missile flight time as in , "Hey wait caldari are overpowered they need to stay that way. "How dare u make another race's ship have comparable damage?" or "This ship would be even better than cerb damage and would unbalance the entire HAC line." honestly amarr need some help. I don't see the issue with making ships in each race have comparable power. After all isnt that the definition of "balanced" ? ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: wierchas noobhunter hmm blowing ascn carebears in empire ? can i join ?
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.04 17:34:00 - [342] Originally by: Scordite Hehe if the sacrilege was given a shield boost cap use reduction big enough to make it capable of running shield tank + lasers, and made a turret boat, everyone would fit projectiles on it. Thats because Lasers are broken in their current state and in most cases projectiles give out better real DPS. But this is a completely different topic IMO, just would like you to remember the days when geddon was king! Balance between weapon systems are modified more often than ship stats and bonus', if suddenly lasers will be good again then you gonna cry you are stuck with missiles.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.04 17:39:00 - [343] Originally by: Kunming AS A 3 YEAR OLD AMARR PILOT WITH OVER 10MIL SP IN GUNNERY I DONT WANT TO TRAIN FOR MISSILES AND WANT TO SEE ALL THOSE GUNNERY SPS HAVE A PURPOSE FIRST; IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND FOR U WHO WANT TO TURN AMARR INTO CALDARI? or should I also increase font size too?! Missiles are not an amarr weapon oh? (Missiles are a weapon manufactured and used by all races) ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.04 17:58:00 - [344] Originally by: Kunming if suddenly lasers will be good again then you gonna cry you are stuck with missiles. Nop, cause still 50% of our ships will remain laser boats. Covering both fronts (missiles + lasers) is way better than putting all eggs in one basket (laser) :)
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.04 18:23:00 - [345] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Scordite Hehe if the sacrilege was given a shield boost cap use reduction big enough to make it capable of running shield tank + lasers, and made a turret boat, everyone would fit projectiles on it. Thats because Lasers are broken in their current state and in most cases projectiles give out better real DPS. funnily enough, Ac's won't have better real dps against a dual eanm II + dcu tank. Because the Eanm and dcu all increase all resists equally the relative dps of all turret types doesn't change. Against base resists(which could as well be a dual eanm II with dcu tank doesn't matter) without any ship bonuses a Heavy pulse laser will do more dps then a 425mm autocannon. Heavy pulse II with MF: 18.221 dps (base resists assumed are 60 - 10 - 25 - 35) 425mm II with EMP: 17.04528 dps Of course i'm completely ignoring such things as grid use(425mm has relatively low grid and the pulse relatively high) and cap, but this is about dps not if it will fit. Originally by: Kunming But this is a completely different topic IMO, just would like you to remember the days when geddon was king! Balance between weapon systems are modified more often than ship stats and bonus', if suddenly lasers will be good again then you gonna cry you are stuck with missiles. When ccp changed the sacrilege to a laser using ship, imo that was a mistake, they made the sacrilege too similar to the zealot. And in doing so it resulted in one being inferior to the other. Before the sacrilege had a niche role with its missiles and armor tank, though perhaps it didn't go far enough on this armor/missiles thing, resulting in a split-weapon ship(which aren't bad in and of themselves untill you add damage mods in the mix). Changing the few T2 ships that are Khanadian isn't going to make it essential for anyone to train missiles or shields. If you hate missiles noone is forcing you to fly a Khanid Sacrilege. Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.10.04 23:09:00 - [346] Edited by: Kldraina on 04/10/2006 23:10:44 If you don't want people fitting damage mods (and turning the Khanid ships into damage dealers) then a split weapon system would be preferable to a single weapon system. If both the Zealot and Sac are made damage dealers, then one will likely prove better than the other, and result in one of them rarely being used.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.05 07:01:00 - [347] Originally by: Kldraina Edited by: Kldraina on 04/10/2006 23:10:44 If you don't want people fitting damage mods (and turning the Khanid ships into damage dealers) then a split weapon system would be preferable to a single weapon system. If both the Zealot and Sac are made damage dealers, then one will likely prove better than the other, and result in one of them rarely being used. The difference between them would be like the difference between enyo and ishkur, they are simply different from each other but both use hybrids.. Zealot will be more like the vaga and the sac like muninn, it should only have 4 turrets and maybe a nos amount or S-Booster cap usage reduction bonus, with good CPU to fit shield stuff or EW. No idea why you guys wanna go for missiles for versatility sake, the fact we know is it cant out DPS cerberus, so it will be even worse than what it is now..
Serj Darek Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2006.10.05 07:38:00 - [348] But can it out tank it? Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes It contains my ingame name and corp ticker - Serj
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.05 08:57:00 - [349] Originally by: Kunming The difference between them would be like the difference between enyo and ishkur, they are simply different from each other but both use hybrids.. Zealot will be more like the vaga and the sac like muninn, it should only have 4 turrets and maybe a nos amount or S-Booster cap usage reduction bonus, with good CPU to fit shield stuff or EW. No idea why you guys wanna go for missiles for versatility sake, the fact we know is it cant out DPS cerberus, so it will be even worse than what it is now.. Yeah great comparison. So everything would stay as is. Zealot = Vagabond = good, and Sacrilege = Muninn = bad. The missile-spamming armortanking Sacrilege would at least be something different. And what difference does it make for a Laser-fanatic whether the Sac is a weaker Zealot that he won't use (except for a stupid challenge to use a weak ship) and noone else will use, or something different that he won't use but that others might find very useful? Jealousy that people get rewarded for not wearing blinders and diversifying their skills? It is really strange with some Amarr people. They cry because they are oh so handicapped (which does have some merit I will admit) but when a good change to that is suggested they balk as well. As for Enyo and Ishkur, sure the Ishkur has turret hardpoints but its main feature is the drones. Noone is asking to remove the Sacs turret hardpoints either and for all I care the laser cap bonus can stay as well. But please give it more missile hardpoints and missile damage bonuses as elite ship bonuses so people more open-minded at least have an option to make it something else than a poor mans Zealot. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.11 12:31:00 - [350] Now that Tux is talking to us again, can we get the yellow stripe of acknowledgement pretty pleeeease! --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.11 13:11:00 - [351] Sure you can have a gold bar. Changing the design of a whole tech 2 line isn't really something we do on a whim. I have already expressed my personal opinion on this and it was very positive (something about happy in the pants). I've been lobbying for it internally and so far people have liked the idea. It won't happen before Kali 1 though. There is another thing with the current version of Sacrilege. It along with Deimos and Muninn are really difficult to fit, so I've messed a bit around with that. Can we please stop bumping this now? In fact there is no need to bump anything if I don't see it straight away you can bet your arse that some other dev or a volunteer will see it and direct it to me or someone else that does these kind of things. _______________

BadManEdmundo Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.11 13:56:00 - [352] Originally by: Tuxford There is another thing with the current version of Sacrilege. It along with Deimos and Muninn are really difficult to fit, so I've messed a bit around with that. <3
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.10.11 13:59:00 - [353] Thanks Tux!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:00:00 - [354] Originally by: Tuxford There is another thing with the current version of Sacrilege. It along with Deimos and Muninn are really difficult to fit, so I've messed a bit around with that. How come ships gets released like that? Dont people notice that they are hard to fit when you create them? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tareen Kashaar eXin Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:30:00 - [355] Wow, that's some really nice ideas! Kudos for thinking of all those points and writing it down :) And on my birthday, too! \o/ I would really love to see some changes like this. --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
Destr0math	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:01:00 - [356] Originally by: Tareen Kashaar Wow, that's some really nice ideas! Kudos for thinking of all those points and writing it down :) And on my birthday, too! \o/ I would really love to see some changes like this. happy birthday tareen :) I think its a good idea
Goumindong Amarr The Forsakened Companions Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:44:00 - [357] Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 27/06/2006 22:02:04 Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: Sarmaul Rule 1: Thou Shalt Armour Tank Khanid ships are going to take their tank from their Amarrian heritage. These ships should be the hardest armour tankers in game, something that is pretty much garenteed by the next couple of rules. But this contradicts the description of Khanid ships: Quote: Developer: Khanid Innovation Constantly striving to combine the best of two worlds, Khanid Innovation have utilized their Caldari connections to such an extent that the Kingdom's ships now possess the most advanced shield generators outside Caldari space, as well as fairly robust electronics systems. Then make up some stupid news piece where Khanid decide it's time for a major revamp of their ships. While their at it, the Minmatar Republic can steal their shield technology and get a hitpoint boost :) edit: I'm fully aware of the backstory for Khanid ships. My point is that it is a daft idea and armour tanking missile spammers is far better and more plausable than: Boss Naka: "Ying, we need to make our ships different from our Amarrian counterparts." Scientist Ying: "I know, as our guns use loads of cap, lets use a form of tanking that also uses loads of cap. The two go hand in hand! 4 midslots is more than enough to run a full shield tank. Just look at the heathen's Vagabond - if it doesn't need hardeners then neither do we." Boss Naka: "Genius! You're promoted!" Truthfully, i wouldnt mind laser/shield tank for Khanid ships. So long as they hadnt fired the guy who suggested sticking a battleship sized reactor modifed to reduce recharge rate at the expense of max cap [for say a 120 second recharge on a 2400 cap reactor ;)] and mass.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:11:00 - [358] Sorry if this has already been said, but: Faction ships ARE NOT T2. They don't require T2 minerals to make, and came out before T2 was invented. None of the ships should have bonuses for HAC, Command Ship, etc., skill per level, as its not in keeping with EVE convention of faction ships being T1. Theme wise, though, I mostly aggree. -----------------------------------------------
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:22:00 - [359] Originally by: Patch86 Sorry if this has already been said, but: Faction ships ARE NOT T2. They don't require T2 minerals to make, and came out before T2 was invented. None of the ships should have bonuses for HAC, Command Ship, etc., skill per level, as its not in keeping with EVE convention of faction ships being T1. Theme wise, though, I mostly aggree. Umm... Khanid ships are ONLY t2, so?
Captin Biltmore Damage Unlimited Inc Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:48:00 - [360] Originally by: Patch86 Sorry if this has already been said, but: Faction ships ARE NOT T2. They don't require T2 minerals to make, and came out before T2 was invented. None of the ships should have bonuses for HAC, Command Ship, etc., skill per level, as its not in keeping with EVE convention of faction ships being T1. Theme wise, though, I mostly aggree. It helps when you post ballance changes about a particular ship (or ship class) that you have flown the ship. Since you obviously don't know what Khandid ships are...you obviously haven't flown them...so...... BTW: Vengence (Khandid amarr assult frig) Sacralidge (Khandid amarr hac) Malediction (Khandid amarr interceptor) It's great being Amarr isn't it. Khanid MKII
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 17:52:00 - [361] Originally by: Captin Biltmore Originally by: Patch86 Sorry if this has already been said, but: Faction ships ARE NOT T2. They don't require T2 minerals to make, and came out before T2 was invented. None of the ships should have bonuses for HAC, Command Ship, etc., skill per level, as its not in keeping with EVE convention of faction ships being T1. Theme wise, though, I mostly aggree. It helps when you post ballance changes about a particular ship (or ship class) that you have flown the ship. Since you obviously don't know what Khandid ships are...you obviously haven't flown them...so...... BTW: Vengence (Khandid amarr assult frig) Sacralidge (Khandid amarr hac) Malediction (Khandid amarr interceptor) You are quite right, I've never flown Khanid. I see, I've always been under the impression that Khanid were faction, not Amarr T2. Clearly showing my own stupidity there. Apologies for general ass-hattery -----------------------------------------------
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.25 17:01:00 - [362] This may be a daft suggestion but they could get a bonus to thermal missile damage instead of EM... Zarch AlDain
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.10.25 21:13:00 - [363] Bump. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Tareen Kashaar eXin Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.26 18:18:00 - [364] Yarr it is. --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
Kinsy Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.01.23 12:13:00 - [365] There is one problem with this - and its obvious. The price of the bloody launchers. Its got to be tied somehow to supply; when all 4 races (perhaps not so much Gallente) use launchers on their ships and there's the same amount of bpo's in circulation for each T2 weapon type, your going to have an imbalance.
LC Sulla BGG	Posted - 2007.01.23 12:28:00 - [366] /signed to the OP. Khanid really needs a re-work. Right now it's like 1/2 + 1/2 < 1. The Curse is about the only decent ship from Khanid atm. The Sac is hopelessly outclassed by the Zealot.
Helen of'Soy	Posted - 2007.01.23 12:47:00 - [367] You are seriously mistaken if you think you are going to get a better missile ship than Caldari. Keep on dreaming.
Wizzkidy	Posted - 2007.01.23 13:01:00 - [368] Originally by: Helen of'Soy You are seriously mistaken if you think you are going to get a better missile ship than Caldari. Keep on dreaming. Why not? Ok maybe not as "better" but a missile boat would be good, and I don't even have any SP in missiles but I would train it if I was given a decent missile boat. On the other hand the curse and pilgrim are not ammar byt design there Gallente and I think that is poor work by the Devs and content department. I really think it's about time we see some love for ammar its been a long time now since we really where able to stand up in the battle field like other races. Tux where is that blog please on the ammar problems, you must of re-written is by now or at least tried to ammend the bits you wasn't happy with as you specificly said you wasn't happy you have had another good few weeks (I know your busy but this is quite important)
Wulfgard Minmatar Lynx Frontier Inc. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.23 13:12:00 - [369] An armor tanking, missile spamming ship? Beside the useless Nightmare, we don't even have one atm... O please listen to Sarmaul, a bit of diversity is what is needed these days :)
shakaZ XIV Caldari True Salvation	Posted - 2007.01.23 13:19:00 - [370] /me <3 Sarmaul's Khanid suggestions. These suggested changes would actually make khanid ships unique and worth using. Originally by: Kinsy There is one problem with this - and its obvious. The price of the bloody launchers. Its got to be tied somehow to supply; when all 4 races (perhaps not so much Gallente) use launchers on their ships and there's the same amount of bpo's in circulation for each T2 weapon type, your going to have an imbalance. Which can easily be fixed by releasing more launcher bpo's (or gasp actually making invention worth it ).
Gamae	Posted - 2007.01.26 07:56:00 - [371] What a wonderful post. I have regained faith in CCP (ah, the amazing power of a few tuxford sentences) and will wait patiently for Sarmaul's will to be done. Indeed, in Sarmaul's absense, perhaps a cult honoring him should be enstated. ~Gamae ---- "salus populi suprema lex" -- some dead guy "all law legislates morality" -- anonymous "Be not simply good, be good for something." --Thoreau (paraphrased for length)
Kel Dario Amarr Vortex. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.26 10:17:00 - [372] Ah I tought this thread was locked and forgotten. I am pleased to see that was not the case. Hovewer, its been over a half year now since it was posted. Anyone dare guess when/if CCP will do a change to the craptastic Sacrilege? My guess is summer 2008!
Wizzkidy	Posted - 2007.01.26 10:46:00 - [373] Originally by: Kel Dario Ah I tought this thread was locked and forgotten. I am pleased to see that was not the case. Hovewer, its been over a half year now since it was posted. Anyone dare guess when/if CCP will do a change to the craptastic Sacrilege? My guess is summer 2008! My guess is that some changes may take place in Kali 2 (tux we love u really)
Deva Blackfire Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.01.26 11:08:00 - [374] In the meanwhile my 100% amarr character said fck Khanids and RP and trained Sabre. Yay for waiting over a year for making Heretic useful... now i can kill 2 heretics at once with my new toy... If you want to hold your breath for any change - better train other races tbh :S. Sacri? Just get Myrmidon - better damage, better tackle, faster, better tank... Heretic? Get a sabre. Vengeance? get jag/wolf. Oh and Damnation... i think every other CBC is better than damnation...
tehnomage Amarr Death Monkey's With Knives Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.26 11:15:00 - [375] Edited by: tehnomage on 26/01/2007 11:12:49 Edited by: tehnomage on 26/01/2007 11:11:41 Originally by: Kel Dario Ah I tought this thread was locked and forgotten. I am pleased to see that was not the case. Hovewer, its been over a half year now since it was posted. Anyone dare guess when/if CCP will do a change to the craptastic Sacrilege? My guess is summer 2008! You sir should be more optimistic and trust that CCP is doing their best in order for us to have at least a bit of fun. I am sure that Tux does a very good job at balancing the races, and the Amarr boost will occur very very soon, right after the other 3 races get 2-3 more boosts, so after we get our the things will be pretty much the same if not worse. But hey, we'll get our boost, and we have to thank Tux for that Anyone wants to sponsorship a raiding gang into Iceland constelation ? I promise any t3 gear I find after podding Tux will be given to the sponsor :)) -- Someone once said about the "best pvp alliance in game", and I quote "DBP, if you can't beat them on the battlefield, beat them on the forums".
EnglishBob 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.26 11:17:00 - [376] Free Sarmaul! ------------------
Arnold Duncan	Posted - 2007.01.26 11:20:00 - [377] Originally by: Gamae What a wonderful post. I have regained faith in CCP (ah, the amazing power of a few tuxford sentences) and will wait patiently for Sarmaul's will to be done. Indeed, in Sarmaul's absense, perhaps a cult honoring him should be enstated. ~Gamae Personally i've regained faith in eve commmunity 6 months ago when this post came out. Probably the first constructive post about amarr ships. Faith in ccp is something it don't deserve anymore imho. Khanid are broken since A LOT of time not only 6 months and they are still as useless as they were before (the little changes on sac didn't work out) PS: i know it's an hard work etc. but if you have a community supporting you and suggesting interesting ideas on how to solve problems, it's not that hard. Therefore it does not requires YEARS to be solved.
Nir The Doldrums	Posted - 2007.01.28 23:03:00 - [378] So I came across this by accident, totally forgot about it and reread the whole post. C'mon Tux, blow away the cobwebs and fix our ships! Khanid need loving too!
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.28 23:18:00 - [379] It's about time Amarr had some love! I don't fly them at all but I'd definitely train for armour tanking and Amarr ships were this to go ahead.
Kldraina	Posted - 2007.01.29 09:56:00 - [380] Edited by: Kldraina on 29/01/2007 09:55:08 I have successfully assembled a passive shield tanked laser boat. I have a Harbinger that can tank 384 dps on it's lowest resists with a passive shield tank. It also has 7 FMPs and 1 medium nos. The nos keeps the guns fed. While I know this isn't a great ship setup, it sure doesn't seem too bad to me. It's not a solo pvp ship, needs someone else to tackle, and probably some help in the damage department too (I only get about 230 dps with drones but my gunnery skills are admittedly lacking). So, in conclusion, shield tanked laser boats are not impossible, or entirely impractical. Just mostly impractical.
Chi Prime Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.29 10:04:00 - [381] TBH this thread should be stickied as a constant reminder! This seems to me a well thought through idea, and a good fix to the current situation.
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.01.29 22:00:00 - [382] Just to be the devil's advocate, I would like to say that I fly a vengeance...and it kicks a ton of ass. It's cap is great, its tank is swell, it's slow and has weak damage but overall it tackles better then Ray Lewis. So please, in all honesty, someone tell me why they hate the vengeance and why it sucks and needs these changes? This question should be an excellent means for promoting your views against the Khanid, so please make the most of it by replying intelligently.
Chi Prime Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.30 08:22:00 - [383] Edited by: Chi Prime on 30/01/2007 08:19:01 Originally by: RossP Zoyka please, in all honesty, someone tell me why they hate the vengeance and why it sucks and needs these changes? I believe the main focus of this thread is not how to change specific ships (although possible changes are proposed), but rather to motivate CCP to set clear guidelines for the Khanid ships as armor tanking missile ships.
Gamae	Posted - 2007.01.30 08:29:00 - [384] Originally by: RossP Zoyka Just to be the devil's advocate, I would like to say that I fly a vengeance...and it kicks a ton of ass. It's cap is great, its tank is swell, it's slow and has weak damage but overall it tackles better then Ray Lewis. So please, in all honesty, someone tell me why they hate the vengeance and why it sucks and needs these changes? This question should be an excellent means for promoting your views against the Khanid, so please make the most of it by replying intelligently. To be blunt: have you flown any other AFs? Both the Venge (and the Sac) recently were "improved" a bit (more grid, better cap, more armor), but it honestly was not enough. Yes, the Khanid are now actually good at something (tanking), but they aren't amazing, and it honestly isn't enough, they are just lackluster compared to t2 ships from other races. Both ships have gone from 'zomgn00bgoflysomethingelse' to 'meh, there are better options out there.' --this sig is having technical difficulties.
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.01.30 09:29:00 - [385] Compare the Damnation (Khanid, ~300dps) to the Eos (Gallente, ~600dps) and you know either something is wrong, or someone is biased. Take your pick.
Gamae	Posted - 2007.01.30 20:59:00 - [386] Yes, we must take the Khanid cause to the devs! Post in this thread, even if you aren't a Khanid Zealot (heh, a little bit of irony there...) Go on, put it in your top ten. --this sig is having technical difficulties.
Chi Prime Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.31 11:21:00 - [387] A little harmless bump to keep this thread from being forgotten :)
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.01.31 16:11:00 - [388] Do missle turrets do more damage then laser turrets? I had always thought that laser turrets did more. The only thing that amarr needs is for that 10% cap bonus for lasers to be replaced by a real bonus. Helping all amarr including Khanid.
Gamae	Posted - 2007.02.01 23:38:00 - [389] Edited by: Gamae on 01/02/2007 23:38:03 Originally by: RossP Zoyka Do missle turrets do more damage then laser turrets? snip It is difficult to compare weapons systems, but I will do a quick attribute listing for you, basically just to highlight that there is no easy answer to your question, perhaps you should be asking a different one. Missiles -- 8 types of bays and 7 types of missiles (ranging from rockets to citadel torps), slow firing rate (two exceptions: rockets and heavy assaults), decent range, delayed damage as missile moves to target, decent (but hard to modify) damage amount, no tracking issues (but target speed and sig radius matter), damage types change at will, cap use is zero, uses missiles as ammo. Lasers -- 2 types (beams and pulses, they both exist at each of the four sizes), fast to decent firing rate, range is complicated (by switching crystals you can increase range and decrease damage, or vice versa), damage amount is good (and variable with range), tracking is good to great (beams have good tracking, pulses have great tracking), damage types are set in stone (em/therm, loses therm at farthest ranges, gains more therm at short ranges), Cap use is off the charts, uses frequency crystals as ammo (no need to reload, unless you want to tweak dmg/range). Phew, congrats if you read through that. I'll respond again and link some informational threads. Yarr. Oh, and if you just want an opinion, mine is that lasers have much more damage potential, but are incredibly difficult to use well, whereas missiles are relatively 'noob-friendly,' providing a low SP, low hassle way to deal damage, particularly in PvE. Edited for a couple error fixes. Yarr. --this sig is having technical difficulties.
Gamae	Posted - 2007.02.01 23:50:00 - [390] Turret tracking. Yarr. Missile info. Yarr. I do so love playing fetch. --this sig is having technical difficulties.
Audeamus Fatal's Marauders	Posted - 2007.02.04 10:05:00 - [391] This sounds like a great idea (Khanid as armor tanking missile ships), although I'd personally done it a bit different on the specific ships. E.g. Malediction MK2 with one additional launcher hardpoint (no other changes needed): Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Missile Velocity and 5% bonus to EM Missile damage per level Interceptors Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Signature Radius and 10% reduction in Small Energy Turret capacitor use per level
Senghir	Posted - 2007.02.11 15:21:00 - [392] I've only read the first few pages (so dont know how this arguement's swinging right now). I wholly disagree with these refits. Most of the people who post seem to be missile spamming Caldari wannabes. All they want is to shove more missile launchers on all of the ships. Khanid ships are 'supposed' to be Amarr based, but with a new introuction of Caldari technology. They 'arent' Caldari based with an introduction of Amarr tech. If you want missile spam, then go Caldari, most of the original posters on this topic seem to have anyway. I for one am quite happy with the balance of Khanid ships. It's a nice mix of mostly lasers with a secondary option of missiles. The last thing I want to see is one of our race's 3 ship developers effectively just be another Caldari variant.
Scordite	Posted - 2007.02.11 15:39:00 - [393] Originally by: Senghir Khanid ships are 'supposed' to be Amarr based, but with a new introuction of Caldari technology. They 'arent' Caldari based with an introduction of Amarr tech. So an amarr ship using lasers with an aproximation of caldari shields is more "amarr" than an amarr ship armor tanking with an aproximation of caldari missiles? Explain your logic please. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Senghir	Posted - 2007.02.11 16:08:00 - [394] Edited by: Senghir on 11/02/2007 16:12:58 Edited by: Senghir on 11/02/2007 16:07:13 Originally by: Scordite Originally by: Senghir Khanid ships are 'supposed' to be Amarr based, but with a new introuction of Caldari technology. They 'arent' Caldari based with an introduction of Amarr tech. So an amarr ship using lasers with an aproximation of caldari shields is more "amarr" than an amarr ship armor tanking with an aproximation of caldari missiles? Explain your logic please. Okay so you dont actually have a point to make here. Another pointless forum post then. The way Khanid ships currently are, is that they have roughly equal shields and armour, and roughly equal use of lasers and missile slots. These new suggestions are just another excuse for missile spam. It doesnt fit with the Khanid theme, and the only reason this post is here is basically for a buff request. An average, run of the mill, present in every online game, imbalanced buff request. *edit - also, when did I even say that lasers with shields was viable? You quoted me and suggested Iwas arguing that when I havent said that at all. Also, the devs are trying to move away from the missile spamming, realising it's totally imbalanced. Which is why the Caldari's shiny new tier 3 Battleship doesnt have any missile slots.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.02.11 17:01:00 - [395] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 11/02/2007 16:59:43 Thank god that I read more than just the first few pages of this and know that your attitude is the vast minority and 99% of the people posting here are actually looking forward to getting useful Khanid ships instead of the abominations they are currently. Split tanking and weapons as they are currently and as you advertise simply does. not. work. in EVE. If you like it that is all well and good, but they are still not competitive to and other line of T2 ships. (exception: Curse, but that isnt very typical Khanid) Actually the way you argue makes you sound like a disguised Caldari jealous of another race getting useful missile boats. No one who is actually interested in useful Khanid ships could possibly argue in favor of split stuff... --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel
Deva Blackfire Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.11 17:31:00 - [396] Originally by: Senghir Okay so you dont actually have a point to make here. Another pointless forum post then. The way Khanid ships currently are, is that they have roughly equal shields and armour, and roughly equal use of lasers and missile slots. These new suggestions are just another excuse for missile spam. It doesnt fit with the Khanid theme, and the only reason this post is here is basically for a buff request. 1. who are you to dictate what Khanid theme actually IS? 2. yes this thread IS all about buffing khanids. Because they DO suck. Originally by: Senghir Also, the devs are trying to move away from the missile spamming, realising it's totally imbalanced. Which is why the Caldari's shiny new tier 3 Battleship doesnt have any missile slots. Uh? Now check: Moa, Harpy, Ferox, Eagle, Vulture, Merlin. Guess what they have in similiaroity to Rokh. And another thing: you know that Rokh is BEST of tier3 BS? Khanid MK2 proposition was to: 1. make khanids USEFUL in pvp (no - heavy tacklers is not a role thats needed - i can do same tackling you do in sacri with MWD + 2 inertia stab apocalypse and still have heavier tank) 2. make khanids sth NEW. We do have shieldtanking missile spammers. We do have shieldtanking gunboats (minmatar). We do have armor tanking gunboats. We DO NOT have armor tanking missile boats (except for bastard typhoon and nightmare which work better with SPEED tanks). 3. you never gave any idea of how to fix them. Only that you disagree with any fix proposed. So it seems you want em to remain in suckyness state - i do not want this, nor most of khanid ship pilots.
Spoon Thumb Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.02.11 18:12:00 - [397] I only read the op's post, and i don't fly any of these ships, so I'm not qualified to comment, but here goes: I think Khanid Innovations' T2 ships should be either: * Laser shooting shield tankers. or * More clearly defined. So f.e. 1 ship is definitely a shield tanker rather than armor tanker, laser shooter rather than missile spammer or whatever. This is clearly reflected in bonuses Also, descriptions in KI info etc, seems to imply shield tanking: Originally by: "Malediction" The Khanid Kingdom ships possess the most advanced shield generators available outside Caldari space, as well as fairly robust electronics systems. Their armor and hull, however, are rather weak and hard to modify. ----- Khaldari KPA are recruiting!
Spoon Thumb Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.02.11 18:18:00 - [398] Balance aside, I am qualified to comment on backstory of Khanid, and the indication is Shield Tanking There is nothing actually to say lasers or missiles as far as i'm aware, and there isn't a huge amount of background on Khanid Innovations (or any of the ships in eve, their backgrounds, historys etc aside from brief description in show info) to get any clues My personal feeling is lasers look cooler and that shield tanking missile ship is just caldari ship in different colours ----- Khaldari KPA are recruiting!
korrey Taurus Inc	Posted - 2007.02.11 19:49:00 - [399] Originally by: Spoon Thumb Edited by: Spoon Thumb on 11/02/2007 18:17:03 ** it, i'll just use bold instead of colours Balance aside, I am qualified to comment on backstory of Khanid, and the indication is Shield Tanking** There is nothing actually to say lasers or missiles as far as i'm aware, and there isn't a huge amount of background on Khanid Innovations (or any of the ships in eve, their backgrounds, historys etc aside from brief description in show info) to get any clues My personal feeling is lasers look cooler and that shield tanking missile ship is just caldari ship in different colours I would screw the backstory if it gave me a good ship. I generally like it to fit with the story given, but if it involves all my little black shield tanked friends, I would drop it in an instance. ----------- 24.01.06 Small patch that addresses some minor balancing issues 1) All minmatar pilots have been deleted
EPSILON DELTA	Posted - 2007.02.11 20:01:00 - [400] Now we only need a Khanid battleship to compete with the raven -------------------------------------------------- Yes I'm a forum alt, what you going to do about it?
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.11 20:41:00 - [401] Edited by: Bardi MecAuldnis on 11/02/2007 20:39:00 I would have no problem with shield-tanking laser-boats if they made it feasible, i.e. rearranging the mid/low slot balance and damn near tripling the capacitor. The only problem I see with this is that you're going to have people screaming OMGHAX when the Sacri comes in pew pew pew, with the passive shield tank from hell, switching crystals like a casino dealer, ripping through everything with its ammo-less weapons system This proposal is asking for a t2 line for Amarr that is unique and useful without being overpowered. We're trading the supposed mega-dps of our laser systems for a "much weaker" ammo-based system with appropriate bonuses in order to gain a strong, active, tank (which is still more cap intensive than a shield tank). As it is right now, Khanid is a weaker, half-assed version of Viziam and Carthum Conglomerate ships. The Caldari have two lines of t2 ships; rails (Harpy, Eagle, Vulture) and missiles (Crow, Hawk, Cerberus, Nighthawk). The Gallente have 2 also; blasters (Taranis, Enyo, Deimos, Astarte) and drones (Ishkur, Ishtar, Eos). I'm not quite sure where the Raptor and Ares fit into this, but that is another thread. Minmatar seem to have a speed side and a damage side, but I'm not too sure because I just now started messing around with their ships and don't have many Matari friends (I am not racist!!1!eleven). At the moment, Amarr have pew pew, armor and pew pew, armor. We would like two different ships to choose from in each class. That's all we ask. --- Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.02.11 22:02:00 - [402] Originally by: Bardi MecAuldnis At the moment, Amarr have pew pew, armor and pew, armor. Fixed it for you ;) --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.11 22:24:00 - [403] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Bardi MecAuldnis At the moment, Amarr have pew pew, armor and pew, armor. Fixed it for you ;) Thanks --- Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
Evil D4rk Shihan.	Posted - 2007.02.15 19:28:00 - [404] I read this at the time is was originally posted and thought it made perfect sense but tbh did not care that much. Now the mofo snakes on the mofo plane dude is like some sort of hero...wtf?? This is my new main.
Destr0math Tritanium Workers Union	Posted - 2007.02.15 19:29:00 - [405] the devs have read and responded! victory is sarmauls! http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=427
Evil D4rk Shihan.	Posted - 2007.02.15 19:30:00 - [406] Originally by: Destr0math the devs have read and responded! victory is sarmauls! http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=427 I already said that, stop trying to steal my thunder. This is my new main.
Isiss Svorxvo	Posted - 2007.02.15 19:50:00 - [407] I vote for a beast of an armor tank missle boat Love every single one of the OP's ideas. Every time I look at an amarr ship, I think "Man that thing has a beast of a tank", armor of course. Every time I look at a Caldari ship I think "What an awesome missle platform" Combine the two and naturally you should have a beast of an armor tank/missle boat. Havent currently found a ship that can make this claim. Only one that can come somewhat close is a cruisephoon (which I love flying :P)
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.15 19:58:00 - [408] Originally by: Evil D4rk Originally by: Destr0math the devs have read and responded! victory is sarmauls! http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=427 I already said that, stop trying to steal my thunder. Jolteon! Use Thunderbolt!! Anywho, I actually let out a little happy scream when I read that devblog. The medical assistant looked at me and just said, "Your game, right?" --- Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
Silas Vitalia Khanid Provincial Vanguard Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.02.15 22:24:00 - [409] Originally by: Deva Blackfire 2. make khanids sth NEW. We do have shieldtanking missile spammers. We do have shieldtanking gunboats (minmatar). We do have armor tanking gunboats. We DO NOT have armor tanking missile boats (except for bastard typhoon and nightmare which work better with SPEED tanks). Well said. I'm still on a nice emotional high after seeing that recent video of the jet-black Khanid Apoc (and all the other t2 bs skins)....Here's hoping that it's more than just window-dressing and the ship is worth it! :) And anyone who thinks the Khanid ships don't need a lot of help, well, there's a reason the Khanid HAC sells for half the price of every other one.....
Audeamus Fatal's Marauders Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.02.15 22:44:00 - [410] The new devblog states "Khanid MK2. I don't think I need to explain what it is, in general we liked the idea and I don't think it's at all unlikely that we will actually go through with it." (cf. Linkage) wooot
Brisi Veto.	Posted - 2007.02.16 00:12:00 - [411] Originally by: Audeamus The new devblog states "Khanid MK2. I don't think I need to explain what it is, in general we liked the idea and I don't think it's at all unlikely that we will actually go through with it." (cf. Linkage) wooot And about god damn time too. Resistance is Fertile.
Audeamus Fatal's Marauders Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.02.16 06:56:00 - [412] lol @ Sarmaul's latest update (cf. Linkage)
Serj Darek Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.16 10:06:00 - [413] Edited by: Serj Darek on 16/02/2007 10:04:06 Edit: This deserves a sticky?! Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes It contains my ingame name and corp ticker - Serj
RuSBO Amarr SolaR KillerS	Posted - 2007.02.18 11:16:00 - [414] I SAY NO MISSILES ON AMARRIAN SHIPS. ITS CRAP. if i need in missiles - ill start learn caldari or minmatar phoon all what we need - fix frequency crystals (damage type , and shield\armor damage balancing) , stats of canons and its power\cpu consumption..., and tachyons cap consuption. __________________ NPC Hunter.
Deva Blackfire Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.18 12:45:00 - [415] Originally by: RuSBO I SAY NO MISSILES ON AMARRIAN SHIPS. ITS CRAP. if i need in missiles - ill start learn caldari or minmatar phoon all what we need - fix frequency crystals (damage type , and shield\armor damage balancing) , stats of canons and its power\cpu consumption..., and tachyons cap consuption. And how does this fix sacri, vengeance, malediction, heretic? Like i fit tachys on any of em... Sacri fits lasers w/o bigger problems and is still crap, same for vengeance. Heretic is crap no matter what you fit. Malediction is decent at best.
Kunming Outcasts	Posted - 2007.02.18 13:49:00 - [416] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: RuSBO I SAY NO MISSILES ON AMARRIAN SHIPS. ITS CRAP. if i need in missiles - ill start learn caldari or minmatar phoon all what we need - fix frequency crystals (damage type , and shield\armor damage balancing) , stats of canons and its power\cpu consumption..., and tachyons cap consuption. And how does this fix sacri, vengeance, malediction, heretic? Like i fit tachys on any of em... Sacri fits lasers w/o bigger problems and is still crap, same for vengeance. Heretic is crap no matter what you fit. Malediction is decent at best. Oh yeah, we shouldnt fix lasers and just turn those khanid ships into caldari replicas.. This thread is so cheap IMO, doesnt really bring in any new innovative ideas just says put missiles on khanid ships cause it works for caldari! And whats worst is Tux is a lazy bast so he will just copy this idea over instead of really fixing khanid by making em unique in their way. I'll tell you something, khanid will be crap cause caldari are supposed to rule the missile world, armor tanking missile boats cant compete with passive shield tanked missile boats, so they need to do more dmg or something, though any khanid ship better than caldari one and forums will flood with caldari whinage anyway. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Scordite	Posted - 2007.02.18 15:08:00 - [417] Originally by: Kunming I'll tell you something, khanid will be crap cause caldari are supposed to rule the missile world, armor tanking missile boats cant compete with passive shield tanked missile boats, so they need to do more dmg or something Show me the passive shield tanked caldari missile boat that has room for ab/mwd, web and scram. No? Well there's your "or something". It's not like amarr has many ships that work well solo or tiny gang. Khanid mk2 ships will. There, you have a role for the ships, previously only filled by the recons and possibly ceptors. The khanid ships suck right now. After they become missile boats, you will think they suck still, so no change for you. But many, many other amarr will love them, and fly them. Which means the amarr ships you DO like to fly will be in less demand, and thus cheaper. Everybody wins. Just stop fighting it. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Kunming Outcasts	Posted - 2007.02.18 15:58:00 - [418] Originally by: Scordite Show me the passive shield tanked caldari missile boat that has room for ab/mwd, web and scram. No? Well there's your "or something". Caldari dont need AB/MWD since their missiles already reach far far away. Dont tell me you cant spare a mid to fit a scram, when u already have both mids and lows for passive tanking. Originally by: Scordite It's not like amarr has many ships that work well solo or tiny gang. Khanid mk2 ships will. There, you have a role for the ships, previously only filled by the recons and possibly ceptors. WTF? Almost all amarr ships can perform solo work, with enough room for ab/mwd, tackling gear, armor tank and full weaponary. Originally by: Scordite The khanid ships suck right now. After they become missile boats, you will think they suck still, so no change for you. But many, many other amarr will love them, and fly them. Which means the amarr ships you DO like to fly will be in less demand, and thus cheaper. Everybody wins. LMAO thats the most flawed logic I ever saw on these forums! No, you guys supporting this missile-amarr win, the rest of us lose by having half of the T2 ships of our race become useless and unenjoyable. Originally by: Scordite Just stop fighting it. I'm not fighting, I'm discussing here and despite putting forward valid and thought out arguements I keep getting the same stereotyping from you guys, who are dreaming of cerberus and crow like amarr ships. Besides the individual opposing the masses always needs to put out the most efford, not to forget the fact that mass whinage makes suxfords legs weak. I definetly dont want to see khanid ships become caldari-copycats, they should have their own unique concept and thats certainly not missile spamming armor tanker. The khanid I have in mind has decent drone bay, split weapon systems, no dmg bonus to either system, equal ammounts of mids and lows with EW bonus, decent speed, stronger shields than armor etc; and I dont argue the concept doesnt need tweaking, but Amarr are already too predictable and have too little access to EW, the missile using armor tanker is not much different than the laser using armor tanker and doesnt give amarr the vestality it desperetly needs. To understand what I mean, think about the curse, you can nano it, you can passive shield tank it with missiles, you can nos-drone-EW, you can active shield tank sustained with NOS and do dmg with drones, etc etc. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Scordite	Posted - 2007.02.18 16:32:00 - [419] Yeah, you can find room for a scram on many caldari ships. They're also slow as hell, especially with no ab/mwd, which you won't have room for, and even if target comes in web range, you don't have room for a webber either. So does the scram really help you? Hm, solo in amarr ships.. Yeah, most amarr ships have room for propulsion mod, web, scram.. But let's count the ones with room for an injector as well (and thus won't get pwnt by ze nos).. Harbinger (has cpu issues) Apoc (has crap damage) Abaddon (might even need more than 1 injector heh) Damnation (crap damage, again) Arbitrator (this works, admittedly) Sacrilege (crap damage /sigh) Malediction (doesn't need it, but.. Crap damage) Curse/Pilgrim (THE solo ships of amarr, works fine) As for flawed logic.. The ships in question already ARE "useless and unenjoyable" to 99% of amarr pilots. And you think something that will change this to maybe 20-30, maybe even 40% is bad? No one wants cerb/crow copies. Khanid mk2 is primarily about being able to use your cap on tanking, not pewpew. Amarr are supposedly the tanking race, right? It's also about free midslots. For solo, this means mwd/scram/web/injector. For gangs, this means sensor booster/tracking disruptor/sensor damps/whatever. Hey, that's access to EW, like you wanted. Also, depending on how the numbers pan out, the sacri looks to be the ideal HAM platform. Less cpu per launcher than normal heavy, but more grid, usually a problem for caldari ships, but shouldn't be for amarr. Mwd/web/scram gets you in range and keeps you there, injected dual rep tank gives you the staying power needed for up close and personal. Again, a problem for caldari ships, since the mwd and web kills the tank, but should work for the sacri. How can this idea NOT appeal to you? ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
logosfold Amarr ORB enterprises	Posted - 2007.02.18 16:45:00 - [420] Since they are a mix of Caldari and Amarr why not just give them bonus's to use hybrid weaponry. This way ppl who have trained for Amarr don't have to learn a completly different new skillset and just train for hybrids and the rail and blaster specs. Lets face it any Amarr player worth his salt should have decent gunnery skills allready so they shouldn't have to learn new types of support skills either!
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.02.18 16:51:00 - [421] Originally by: Kunming LMAO thats the most flawed logic I ever saw on these forums! No, you guys supporting this missile-amarr win, the rest of us lose by having half of the T2 ships of our race become useless and unenjoyable. You are kinda contradicting yourself here... The missile-khanid supporters win, yes. But you don't lose if Khanid ships become useless and unenjoyable because they already ARE useless and unenjoyable (Unless you are one of those people who enjoys flying a ship simply because noone else does, and then you should not be talking in a ship change debate imho) Originally by: Kunming I definetly dont want to see khanid ships become caldari-copycats, they should have their own unique concept and thats certainly not missile spamming armor tanker. The khanid I have in mind has decent drone bay, split weapon systems, no dmg bonus to either system, equal ammounts of mids and lows with EW bonus, decent speed, stronger shields than armor etc; and I dont argue the concept doesnt need tweaking, but Amarr are already too predictable and have too little access to EW, the missile using armor tanker is not much different than the laser using armor tanker and doesnt give amarr the vestality it desperetly needs. To understand what I mean, think about the curse, you can nano it, you can passive shield tank it with missiles, you can nos-drone-EW, you can active shield tank sustained with NOS and do dmg with drones, etc etc. Split weapons do. not. work. Period. And not because of ship bonuses, but because of damage mods. Give me damage mods that affect two weapon systems at the same time and I will embrace your split weapon slots. Otherwise, please go away with split weapons. And the Curse only works because it gets a +50% drone bonus. So you want every khanid ship to get that? How is gallentefying them better than caldarifying? I am sorry, but just repeating your arguments does not make them any more valid. Not to mention the opponents here don't seem to be a minority, they seem to be a singularity :P --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel
Dopefish Amarr Quad and Fish	Posted - 2007.02.18 16:58:00 - [422] Originally by: Kunming The khanid I have in mind has decent drone bay, split weapon systems, no dmg bonus to either system, equal ammounts of mids and lows with EW bonus, decent speed, stronger shields than armor etc; and I dont argue the concept doesnt need tweaking, but Amarr are already too predictable and have too little access to EW, the missile using armor tanker is not much different than the laser using armor tanker and doesnt give amarr the vestality it desperetly needs. Your vision makes me think minmatar. Amarr are the brute force race, we dont need versatility. Where brute force is not enough we need more brute force.
Nylian Amarr	Posted - 2007.02.18 18:20:00 - [423] First time I've seen this post... and after having read the devblog it gave me goosebumps. I <3 Amarr, I <3 the sacrileage... and I even thought about putting missiles on it instead of lasers anyway! Totally agree on all points EXCEPT the cap bonus to lasers. Ya'll have said, and know it... eve is about specialization, cap use bonus on a Khanid missile ship seems a bit bass ackwards imo. (And in the opinion of others :) ) wewt! now I'll actually have more than 50k sp in missiles!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.18 18:27:00 - [424] Originally by: Nylian First time I've seen this post... and after having read the devblog it gave me goosebumps. I <3 Amarr, I <3 the sacrileage... and I even thought about putting missiles on it instead of lasers anyway! Totally agree on all points EXCEPT the cap bonus to lasers. Ya'll have said, and know it... eve is about specialization, cap use bonus on a Khanid missile ship seems a bit bass ackwards imo. (And in the opinion of others :) ) wewt! now I'll actually have more than 50k sp in missiles! Absent halving the cap use on lasers, it ensures that any free highs can still be fitted with extra turrets if the user so pleases. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Mr Peanut STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.18 20:55:00 - [425] Edited by: Mr Peanut on 18/02/2007 20:52:09 Originally by: Nylian First time I've seen this post... and after having read the devblog it gave me goosebumps. I <3 Amarr, I <3 the sacrileage... and I even thought about putting missiles on it instead of lasers anyway! Totally agree on all points EXCEPT the cap bonus to lasers. Ya'll have said, and know it... eve is about specialization, cap use bonus on a Khanid missile ship seems a bit bass ackwards imo. (And in the opinion of others :) ) wewt! now I'll actually have more than 50k sp in missiles! We have to have that cap bonus, unless we change the T1 variants of the ships, as well. In EVE, T2 ships have the skill-based bonuses for their T1 variant as well as new skill-based bonuses that are unique to themselves. Basically, unless you change the Maller, you're not removing that bonus from the Sacrilege. The same goes for punisher>vengeance, etc.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.18 21:27:00 - [426] Originally by: Mr Peanut Edited by: Mr Peanut on 18/02/2007 20:52:09 Originally by: Nylian First time I've seen this post... and after having read the devblog it gave me goosebumps. I <3 Amarr, I <3 the sacrileage... and I even thought about putting missiles on it instead of lasers anyway! Totally agree on all points EXCEPT the cap bonus to lasers. Ya'll have said, and know it... eve is about specialization, cap use bonus on a Khanid missile ship seems a bit bass ackwards imo. (And in the opinion of others :) ) wewt! now I'll actually have more than 50k sp in missiles! We have to have that cap bonus, unless we change the T1 variants of the ships, as well. In EVE, T2 ships have the skill-based bonuses for their T1 variant as well as new skill-based bonuses that are unique to themselves. Basically, unless you change the Maller, you're not removing that bonus from the Sacrilege. The same goes for punisher>vengeance, etc. Except the vengeane and retribution do not get a 5% resistance bonus. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Idara Caldari Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.18 21:28:00 - [427] You beat me there, I was just going to say that's total trash, because the Vengeance only gets the ****ty bonus of the Punisher, not the half-decent tanky one. ---
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.18 23:54:00 - [428] Originally by: Idara You beat me there, I was just going to say that's total trash, because the Vengeance only gets the ****ty bonus of the Punisher, not the half-decent tanky one. Though to be honest a optimal/resistance/damage retribution or vengeance might be a bit "over the top" as it were. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2007.02.19 00:22:00 - [429] Originally by: Goumindong We have to have that cap bonus, unless we change the T1 variants of the ships, as well. In EVE, T2 ships have the skill-based bonuses for their T1 variant as well as new skill-based bonuses that are unique to themselves. Basically, unless you change the Maller, you're not removing that bonus from the Sacrilege. The same goes for punisher>vengeance, etc. Except the vengeane and retribution do not get a 5% resistance bonus. More importantly, that's just a general guidline, not an absolute rule. All the AFs break it to some degree, from missing bonuses like the Vengeance to completely different bonuses like the Hawk. Or more importantly, the precedent of changing T1 gunboats into T2 missile boats. Lets look at them: Flycatcher: Loses hybrid optimal and tracking to gain missile velocity and precision. Nighthawk: Loses hybrid optimal for missile rate of fire. Hawk: Loses hybrid optimal for missile kinetic damage. So there's clear precedent for changing now-useless T1 bonuses if the T2 version of a ship uses different weapons.
Rania Serlia World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.02.19 00:32:00 - [430] Edited by: Rania Serlia on 19/02/2007 00:29:32 I find the idea of missile spewing khanid ships to be remarkably appealing. If they touch my curse(-nosrange, +misilerof or somesuch), I will cry. Always had a problem with the khanid ships that never seemed to know what they were, heretic, malediction, and to a lesser extent sacri...
Litus Arowar Amarr Obsidian Asylum Pure.	Posted - 2007.02.19 00:35:00 - [431] I can see myself flying a lot more malediction and a lot less crusader if these changes go through... it'd really make that ship beautiful to fly, as beautiful as the crusader already is in the right hands the vengeance too could greatly benefit from this, becoming an even better takler due to its ability to shoot even when nossed when needed Albert Anastacia> Like they say, adapt or die. I adapted and now I get to Iwinbutton all over everyones face. Kraven Kor> When I lose a ship to lag / disco / cat-on-fire, well, I'm just @#$%ed.
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.02.19 01:04:00 - [432] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sarmaul Rule 7: Thou Shalt Try To Retain Thy's 50% Laser Cap Reduction Bonus Because some people are never happy, and most ships inherit that bonus anyway. I agree with most everything except this. It's just a waste, nobody is gonna use lasers on a Sac if these changes were to come in. I'm not too sure what should replace it, nothing too great. Perhaps a missile flight time or speed bonus. I would like to see the Khanid tankers drop the -10% laser cap use bonus per level and get a second tanking bonus instead. Let it be +10% to rep amount per level Let them be the toughest armor tankers in game period with the resist bonus AND the rep amount bonus. Resist bonus + rep amount bonus would give them a perfect niche for the Amarrian fleet while keeping them distinctly amarrian. Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:35:00 - [433] They already are the toughest armor tankers in the game, with the largest number of low slots and a very strong resist bonus. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Selia Rain	Posted - 2007.02.19 07:37:00 - [434] Because surely a sacrilige with a +repamount(10%!), +resist, +launcherrof, +damage wouldn't be overpowered. Not in the least.
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.02.19 14:49:00 - [435] Originally by: Goumindong They already are the toughest armor tankers in the game, with the largest number of low slots and a very strong resist bonus. Meh, I mistyped. My suggested bonus should be the same as the Gallente ships @ 7.5% per level. The issue lies in the fact that tanking is inherently weaker than ganking. Multiple friendly Tanks do not combine additively like gank ships, and defenses suffer from a "diminishing returns" effect that dps does not, i.e. they both have stacking penalties but resist boni also suffer from reduced effectiveness as your hardening trends upwards. A percent of a percent if you will. The armor amount bonus side steps this problem as it is the one defensive bonus that gets stronger the more rigs/mods are added that effect it. Adding the armor rep amount bonus with the armor resist simply creates a ship that A)Unique/Usefull and B) has survivability that is an equal tradeoff to the lessor dps it also posseses. And no, 5 launchers with a rof bonus combined with an armor resist and armor amount bonus wouldn't be overpowering on the Sac. It would make it interesting, unique, and usefull. Applied to the Damnation, it would almost make it worthwhile using over an Eos, Vulture, or Claymore. Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Nylian Amarr	Posted - 2007.02.19 15:09:00 - [436] Originally by: Mr Peanut We have to have that cap bonus, unless we change the T1 variants of the ships, as well. In EVE, T2 ships have the skill-based bonuses for their T1 variant as well as new skill-based bonuses that are unique to themselves. Basically, unless you change the Maller, you're not removing that bonus from the Sacrilege. The same goes for punisher>vengeance, etc. And no, it doesn't HAVE to be there. Though it might make more sense. :) I'm not saying I wouldn't like it, but I don't think it would be necessary. Heck, by that logic just take it off the maller too. Considering the maller doesn't have a laser damage bonus I would never fit lasers on it anyway. I've always fit projectiles on my puni/maller/apoc, making the tank that much more effective, especially for lower sp's.
Danh	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:20:00 - [437] Originally by: Nylian Originally by: Mr Peanut We have to have that cap bonus, unless we change the T1 variants of the ships, as well. In EVE, T2 ships have the skill-based bonuses for their T1 variant as well as new skill-based bonuses that are unique to themselves. Basically, unless you change the Maller, you're not removing that bonus from the Sacrilege. The same goes for punisher>vengeance, etc. And no, it doesn't HAVE to be there. Though it might make more sense. :) I'm not saying I wouldn't like it, but I don't think it would be necessary. Heck, by that logic just take it off the maller too. Considering the maller doesn't have a laser damage bonus I would never fit lasers on it anyway. I've always fit projectiles on my puni/maller/apoc, making the tank that much more effective, especially for lower sp's. Yet, but if you're using projectiles, you'll benefit more from a ship that gets bonuses to them. So not much point in flying the maller (unless you're purposely trading the lower damage for a slightly better tank?). Now if lasers used less cap, there'd be no need for the laser cap bonus on amarr ships and we could get a bonus that makes using lasers appealing. And it would also make khanid weapon systems make more sense (because they could then have the tech1 bonus for lasers and the tech2 bonus for missiles or whatever).
Alpine 69 Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.19 21:05:00 - [438] Hmmm im not an Amarr pilot, however i do love these ideas, as the khanid ships arent that good right now, ccp, listen to this man.
Tisanta Amarr Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom	Posted - 2007.02.19 21:32:00 - [439] i want laser tracking/optimal bonuses on our ships cus we are ment to be mid-range fighters --- Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Mr Peanut STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.20 04:07:00 - [440] Originally by: Tisanta i want laser tracking/optimal bonuses on our ships cus we are ment to be mid-range fighters Yes pls.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.20 06:45:00 - [441] Originally by: Mr Peanut Originally by: Tisanta i want laser tracking/optimal bonuses on our ships cus we are ment to be mid-range fighters Yes pls. Which is why we get them on the Zealot and Retribution. Now if they were on the Absolution and Crusader that would be awesome. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.02.20 15:12:00 - [442] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Mr Peanut Originally by: Tisanta i want laser tracking/optimal bonuses on our ships cus we are ment to be mid-range fighters Yes pls. Which is why we get them on the Zealot and Retribution. Now if they were on the Absolution and Crusader that would be awesome. I have to agree, the optimal bonus for lasers on the Zealot makes is awesome and gives it a significant advantage over the Gallente short range boats. I was REALLY confused when I saw that the Absolution didn't get the same optimal bonus as the zealot. Why is that? Why don't the Sader and Absolution get an optimal bonus like the Zealot and Retri? It's such a perfect fit on Amarr gunships.........do they get something else in it's place? Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.20 15:47:00 - [443] Edited by: Goumindong on 20/02/2007 15:44:28 Sader gets: cap/damage sig/tracking Abso gets: Cap/Res rof/dmg Zealot gets Rof/cap Dmg/opt Retri gets: cap/null Opt/dmg In order to give the sader an opt bonus it would have to drop tracking[worth it!!!] and in order to give the abso an opt bonus it would have to drop damage or rof. ed: unless of course, the whole stupid "cap use" thing was nixed ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Deva Blackfire Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.21 14:22:00 - [444] Originally by: Fon Revedhort Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Mr Peanut Originally by: Tisanta i want laser tracking/optimal bonuses on our ships cus we are ment to be mid-range fighters Yes pls. Which is why we get them on the Zealot and Retribution. Now if they were on the Absolution and Crusader that would be awesome. I have to agree, the optimal bonus for lasers on the Zealot makes is awesome and gives it a significant advantage over the Gallente short range boats. I was REALLY confused when I saw that the Absolution didn't get the same optimal bonus as the zealot. Why is that? Why don't the Sader and Absolution get an optimal bonus like the Zealot and Retri? It's such a perfect fit on Amarr gunships.........do they get something else in it's place? Nyxus If you add an optimal range bonus to Abso... what would be a role of Zealot then? Maybe they should change all our bonuses to -10% cap use and +10% optimal on any ship? Absolution is fine as it is... Well, it is fine for Amarrian vessel I mean Dont even DARE to touch absolution. If it loses either rof or damage - plz transfer my lvl5 command ships into lvl5 of other skill. Trained it to get the "edge" (10% more damage) over ppl with commands4. Also - range on heavy pulses + scorch is OK (22+5km faloff). Only lasers that are a bit weak are small ones - IMO they should hit abt 13-14k with scorch... atm its abt 10-12k making it hard to sit outside of web range.
Fon Revedhort Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2007.02.21 16:37:00 - [445] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Dont even DARE to touch absolution. If it loses either rof or damage - plz transfer my lvl5 command ships into lvl5 of other skill. Trained it to get the "edge" (10% more damage) over ppl with commands4. Actually, there is a 11.(1)% DPS increment on Absolution when progressing 4 lvl -> 5. Just compare 1.2/0.8 and 1.25/0.75
Deva Blackfire Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.21 17:22:00 - [446] Originally by: Fon Revedhort Originally by: Deva Blackfire Dont even DARE to touch absolution. If it loses either rof or damage - plz transfer my lvl5 command ships into lvl5 of other skill. Trained it to get the "edge" (10% more damage) over ppl with commands4. Actually, there is a 11.(1)% DPS increment on Absolution when progressing 4 lvl -> 5. Just compare 1.2/0.8 and 1.25/0.75 Meh - details :) (yeh i know 5% rof is not 5% damage - just posted more-less amount you gain) Still - dont touch it :) Fix khanids instead :)
Azver Deroven Amarr Laurifer Militis FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.02.25 23:53:00 - [447] Im aware its old, but damn... this is exactly what I would love to see, give this man a medal :) Stop the nanos!
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2007.02.26 08:26:00 - [448] S¦Did anyone mention or suggest the Apocalypse to get some more missile slots? I'm just casually looking at the suggestions and they aren't bad at all... at least amarr will get more diversity and perhaps strong lasers and non-cap select damage type missiles will be an awesome combo with the armor tanks...
Mrs Amadeus	Posted - 2007.04.07 18:40:00 - [449] Bump for the other good thread on fixing amarr /signed
Josh Causto Gallente Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.04.15 23:11:00 - [450] You sir are sexy.
Synseer Minmatar North Face Force Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.14 01:44:00 - [451] can we get these changes Tux? please?
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.06.14 05:04:00 - [452] If you make the Khanid ships missile spammes, get rid of the 10% cap reduc bonus. The nighthawk doesn't have the Ferox's bonuses, so no reason why the same couldn't apply to Amarr.
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.14 07:43:00 - [453] I look forward to ruining more pants via "tightening" to any changes armor tanking missile ships being introduced would bring. ----- results may vary
Kunming adeptus gattacus Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.06.14 08:52:00 - [454] I don't get it since when are missiles an Amarr weapon? Sure almost any ship in EVE has missile hardpoints, but last I checked I trained up drone skills to use the curse, geddon etc. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Arnold Duncan	Posted - 2007.06.14 10:01:00 - [455] Originally by: Kunming I don't get it since when are missiles an Amarr weapon? Sure almost any ship in EVE has missile hardpoints, but last I checked I trained up drone skills to use the curse, geddon etc. Does amarr need to have already another missile ship to get one? I don't think so. It's kinda bad thing that we suppose that every race ship should stick to 3 or 4 kind of bonuses. And btw anyway amarr have the inquisitor frigate ship with 3 missiles slots and bonus to em damage, so it is infact an amarr weapon. Missile spewing armor tanked apoc 4tw
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.06.14 11:20:00 - [456] Originally by: Kunming I don't get it since when are missiles an Amarr weapon? Sure almost any ship in EVE has missile hardpoints, but last I checked I trained up drone skills to use the curse, geddon etc. Missiles are not an Amarr weapon, but a Khanid weapon. All those ships already have a slight missile focus. The halfassedness kills their performance though, so a full missile focus would be great. While a full laser focus would just make them poor-mans versions of the trueborn Amarr ships (like the current Zealot-Sac relation). And just someone having trained drones rather than missiles is really not a very good argument. Drones are infinitely more powerful than missiles as secondary weapon for every race anyway because they do not steal slots from the primary weapon, so everyone smart will have good drone skills. Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.06 00:55:00 - [457] Sorry about the necro but this is an interesting topic. Anyone heard any further news on this from official sources? Probably the thing I'm looking forward to most at the moment. :/
Tamoko Damage Unlimited Inc	Posted - 2007.07.06 01:16:00 - [458] Well worth necroing. I'd love to see this get implemented so I could start putting my seven million amarr skill points towards something useful.
Cladius Mithra Amarr Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.06 02:02:00 - [459] yes, give me a missile bonus and more missile slots on my sacrilege. that would be very nice :)
Dalmont COLD-Wing Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.07.06 02:34:00 - [460] Don't forget the rumor of the Khanid Apoc, as both a CNR and Navy Apoc pilot, i'd sh*t myself if I saw that. Honestly though, the sad truth is, there aren't many crossover skills, and the ships that do cross are crap, literally, due to lack of proper slot layout and bonuses, i'd agree completely with everything this thread says if it ever got implmented. Malediction with 3 launchers... mmm, i'd trade in my crow.
Litus Arowar Amarr Obsidian Asylum Pure.	Posted - 2007.07.06 03:49:00 - [461] I want this to finally get implemented so my vengeance becomes useful... I'd also love to see a proposal for a heretic... the malediction changes are alright too, a little more survivability is always nice EVE Acronym Guide
Litus Arowar Amarr Obsidian Asylum Pure.	Posted - 2007.07.06 03:52:00 - [462] Edited by: Litus Arowar on 06/07/2007 03:52:12 I'm a ****** noob doubleposter EVE Acronym Guide
Princess Xenia	Posted - 2007.07.21 02:08:00 - [463] Khanid Mk2 is FINALLY due on Kali 3 .......... YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!! Watch Eve-tv episode 4...
Tamoko Damage Unlimited Inc	Posted - 2007.07.21 06:13:00 - [464] Originally by: Princess Xenia Khanid Mk2 is FINALLY due on Kali 3 .......... YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!! Watch Eve-tv episode 4... ZOMG WOW I knew buying stock in Amarr would give capital returns... eventually. Could an interested party /w EVE TV Elaborate on exactly what's being implemented?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.21 11:03:00 - [465] Can someone post some more details on what was said please? I don't feel like complying with CCPs attempt to coerce money out of us by releasing things like this on a frikkin professional EVE-TV that noone wanted/needed... There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.07.21 11:09:00 - [466] Originally by: Princess Xenia Khanid Mk2 is FINALLY due on Kali 3 .......... YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!! Watch Eve-tv episode 4... At last \o/ ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.21 11:13:00 - [467] I'll believe it when I see it.
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.21 15:49:00 - [468] They will make Invulfields harder to fit so Khanid can do better damage. ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
Durao Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.21 16:47:00 - [469] Edited by: Durao on 21/07/2007 16:54:00 On eve tv, one of the devs (hammerhead) was asked if he thought interdictors were balanced. He said that all of them were doing their jobs (dropping bubbles) but the amarr one was going to change because they were implementing khanid mk 2. That's all that was really said, and the interviewer (spiraljunkie?) didn't respond with a follow-up question. It's good to hear that khanid mk2 is going into the game, but I was disappointed that eve tv didn't ask anything else about it. --- "Eat a third and drink a third and leave the remaining third of your stomach empty. Then, when you get angry, there will be sufficient room for your rage." -Babylonian Talmud
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.21 17:09:00 - [470] Personally I donÆt think the masses know how important a buff to the horrible khanid ships are to many playersà It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.21 17:16:00 - [471] I guess Khanid Mk2 still means more missiles and armor tank, so the new Heretic should be something like 8 Highs, 6 Missiles 2 Turrets 2 Meds (that sucks) 4 Lows (more speed mods yey) Then we have to guess if they allow it to fit the same uberness of the sabre (biggest guns biggest tank best boni). If yes, then: 6x Rocket Launcher II 1x Cloak/Gun 1x Bubble 1x Mwd II 1x Web/Scram 1x 400mm Plate II 3x Speed Mods with no reqs Boni: -Missile/Rocket Velocity 10%(Rockets are crap without) -Missile/Rocket EM Damage 10%(Its amarr...) (or was it 5%) -Armor Resistence 5% -Bubble rof bonus Thats a nice Interdictor and would actually stand a chance against a Sabre. ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
Deva Blackfire Citadel of dark arts	Posted - 2007.07.21 17:58:00 - [472] Actually id prefer heretic to stay same slot lay as it is now just give 1 more missile slot, missile bonus and some cpu (it was hard to fit already).
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.21 18:10:00 - [473] yup, i undid the slot change, stupid me ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
Tamoko Damage Unlimited Inc	Posted - 2007.07.21 18:14:00 - [474] I hope to god that Hammerhead making reference to "Khanid Mk II" was a direct reference to Sarmaul's literature on the OP. Though more than a year old now, I think it's still simply brilliant.
Litus Arowar Amarr Obsidian Asylum Pure.	Posted - 2007.07.21 20:36:00 - [475] I like the way the heretic looks there... I've already commented on the rest of khanid mk2 Benn Helmsman> Could a mod give this guy a snip for constant insulting without giving any point to the topic?
MirrorGod Heretic Army	Posted - 2007.07.22 07:21:00 - [476] Love it all except the EM bonus on missiles, switch that to Kinetic, we've already got enough EM damage. If said changes happen I'll fly nothing but Khanid, gotta love the sexy black hulls. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Timmeh ([email protected])
Deva Blackfire Citadel of dark arts	Posted - 2007.07.22 07:22:00 - [477] Originally by: MirrorGod Love it all except the EM bonus on missiles, switch that to Kinetic, we've already got enough EM damage. If said changes happen I'll fly nothing but Khanid, gotta love the sexy black hulls. It wont work. Khanid racial damage is same as amarr = EM.
haq aan Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.23 13:30:00 - [478] Free bump! for the love of Amarr.
Rania Serlia World Order The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.07.29 07:27:00 - [479] Has anyone been on sisi recently? Khanid Stats Image1 Khanid Stats Image2 I've already bought my damnation. How about you?
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.29 08:52:00 - [480] Edited by: Gorion Wassenar on 29/07/2007 08:56:08 Wow, they're actually doing it. Its going to be nice to be able to PvP in a missile ship with free meds for once. Can we get any pics of the other stats like shield/armor hp etc? ----- results may vary
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.07.29 08:59:00 - [481] How do I get onto SiSi? The patch process isnt familiar to me. The current build isnt one listed as an option when you try and download the test build.
Valerian Xavier Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 09:02:00 - [482] Originally by: Gorion Wassenar Wow, they're actually doing it. Its going to be nice to be able to PvP in a missile ship with free meds for once. Can we get any pics of the other stats like shield/armor hp etc? stats left out anathema
Tamoko Damage Unlimited Inc	Posted - 2007.07.29 09:02:00 - [483] Originally by: Julius Romanus How do I get onto SiSi? The patch process isnt familiar to me. The current build isnt one listed as an option when you try and download the test build. First and most importantly, DON'T USE YOUR REGULAR EVE CLIENT. Duplicate the eve directory on your hard drive. Open the client, and choose Singularity from the server list. It'll advise you that you have an incompatible build. If it fails to find an appropriate patch, you'll need to download the fresh client from the website. In the case that you are able to get a working patch, go ahead and log in. ... ZOMG I can't believe they're actually pulling this off!
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.29 09:13:00 - [484] This follows all of the rules laid down by Sarmaul. Prophet? ----- results may vary
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.07.29 09:16:00 - [485] Edited by: Julius Romanus on 29/07/2007 09:17:58 Thank you very much, to both the guy who posted the stats, and for the help on the sisi install. They left my diction alone stat wise(+10 cpu!). But gave it a serious rocket focus. I can deal with that. I'm REALLY glad they didnt decide to drop the shield HP or resists, I'm rather fond of both of those. 3 solid bar's of hit points make knowing when to pull off from a tackle gone bad.
Tamoko Damage Unlimited Inc	Posted - 2007.07.29 09:21:00 - [486] Rockets are the win. I look forward to using a diction instead of Crusader, and actually hitting frigates' armor for more than 7 damage
Valerian Xavier Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 09:23:00 - [487] sisi is still acting crappy though, cant really test out stuff that well but the new sac seems fun if nothing else
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.07.29 09:25:00 - [488] I still cant actually get onto sisi. The current client you can download from the website doesnt seem to have a patch to current test build, at least thats what the website says :(
Valerian Xavier Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 09:26:00 - [489] http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/test/evepatch35183-35248_test.exe patch needed for sisi
Tamoko Damage Unlimited Inc	Posted - 2007.07.29 09:27:00 - [490] Originally by: Julius Romanus I still cant actually get onto sisi. The current client you can download from the website doesnt seem to have a patch to current test build, at least thats what the website says :( I expected that. Means your current build + sisi's build = bad news. You have to download a fresh EVE client from the website from scratch and install it in a separate location from your TQ mirror. Then, patch it with the sisi patch.
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.07.29 09:29:00 - [491] Originally by: Valerian Xavier http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/test/evepatch35183-35248_test.exe patch needed for sisi Is there a way to download you to a PDA for use on the road? Saved my day again.
Valerian Xavier Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 09:29:00 - [492] Originally by: Tamoko Originally by: Julius Romanus I still cant actually get onto sisi. The current client you can download from the website doesnt seem to have a patch to current test build, at least thats what the website says :( I expected that. Means your current build + sisi's build = bad news. You have to download a fresh EVE client from the website from scratch and install it in a separate location from your TQ mirror. Then, patch it with the sisi patch. no you dont. copy and paste your eve folder and then apply above patch to it, and you should be fine
DeadProphet Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.29 09:50:00 - [493] please please PLEASE dont do this. especially the vengeance and sacrilege, my favourate ships. the sac is so much more versitile than the zealot as it is now, it's the ship i select first of all, nerf it by giving it bloody heavy assault missiles (who the hell uses them anyway?) and i might as well train for a freaking eagle and have done with it. I didn't train amarr to use missiles. NO!
Isyel Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2007.07.29 10:10:00 - [494] Originally by: DeadProphet please please PLEASE dont do this. especially the vengeance and sacrilege, my favourate ships. the sac is so much more versitile than the zealot as it is now, it's the ship i select first of all, nerf it by giving it bloody heavy assault missiles (who the hell uses them anyway?) and i might as well train for a freaking eagle and have done with it. I didn't train amarr to use missiles. NO! Oh man... You better put on your flame resistant suit ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Originally by: Wrangler We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want both anti-social and social players to grief each other!
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.07.29 10:21:00 - [495] Ok, so been to SiSi and back. My skills arent at a point where I can test out my "rocketified" standard setup. But with the usual DC2 I use for tank, my armor resists are all above 50%, which is decent. DPS calculating(rough) I think i'll lose 10-20dps from my 3xDLP1xarb rocket setup. But the fit is slightly easier than before. Slightly better cap profile(to be honest 3dual light pulses never really drained that much to start with)
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 10:32:00 - [496] I'm rather miffed about this too, for two reasons. They are taking the turret slots away, forcing either to repackage the khanids or train missiles. Fair enough. But also, they are focusing on khanid ships when the basis of those ships is flawed, reagarding the whole amarr race. Kinda miffed that they would use focus on these, when there' more pressing issues. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Xanos Blackpaw Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2007.07.29 10:36:00 - [497] i'm fixing my sisi client now....and if this is for realy i will be happy in the pants....armortanking missile ships!!! WOOOOHOOOO!!!! Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 10:41:00 - [498] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 10:42:51 These changes most definitely suck for several reasons..... It'll make the ships more in line with the Khanid pseudo-philosophy of.c., but it'll also seriously screw over people who fly Amarr today and HAVEN'T trained missiles (at least until they do... wow, timesink!!!). In short, this'll take away the BEST (IMHO) Amarr small ships from the the people who haven't trained missiles (and yes, I'm one of them, 8m SP down the drain...)..... Heretic.... Great, we now can't use Amarr interdictors effectively until they've trained at least a couple of months!!! Malediction.... Great, we now can't use Amarr interceptors effectively (the crusader is not usable because of it's low number of mids)!!! Sacrilege... Great, take away the good Amarr HAC (it's survivable, Zealot isn't)!! Secondly, why the hell not FIX lasers instead of removing them? In effect, this removes a good part of the reason for Amarr to train lasers at all. Can someone explain to me why exactly lasers need a NERF? Let's see.... Caldari: 50% missile, 50% hybrid Gallente: 100% hybrid Amarr (new): 50% laser, 50% missile Minmatar: 75% projectile, 25% missile Leaving lasers as the absolutely LEAST represented weapon type in the game (and of.c. in the process screwing over people who trained them). The proposed Khanid ships are ok, but why the h* add ANOTHER race that NEED to train missiles? This makes 3 out of 4... Gallente being the only one who doesn't, meaning they'll be the only ones who don't need to dual-train (wow, fly gallente and you need 6 months less training). Does Gallente really need another advantage???? So, while this might add some worthwhile ships to the game, I seriously think it's bad for so many reasons. It takes away variety from the game (hey, lets use missiles everyone), which IMHO is bad for the game!!! Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Xanos Blackpaw Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2007.07.29 10:43:00 - [499] Originally by: Sheriff Jones I'm rather miffed about this too, for two reasons. They are taking the turret slots away, forcing either to repackage the khanids or train missiles. Fair enough. But also, they are focusing on khanid ships when the basis of those ships is flawed, reagarding the whole amarr race. Kinda miffed that they would use focus on these, when there' more pressing issues. missiles are way easier to train than guns... Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 10:52:00 - [500] Looking good so far, seems to be worth me training up missiles a bit more. Can you think about making the bonuses affect missiles as well as Rockets/HAM's. Khanid ships aren't that fast so getting into HAM range is an issue. Caldari missile ships already have the distinction of having better ranged and faster missiles from their bonuses.
Rossarian	Posted - 2007.07.29 10:55:00 - [501] Edited by: Rossarian on 29/07/2007 11:01:11 Geez, here comes the army of singleminded Amarr whiners. Please note a few things before you shed your tears on us: 1. Khanid ships were broken long before Amarr ones, back before RMR Amarr was plenty powerful while Khanid already sucked. So it is only fair that they get fixed first. 2. No monotheistic laser worshipping Amarr in his right mind (yes I know this is a contradiction in terms ) would use a Khanid ship over an Amarr one anyway (except maybe in the Inty case coz Inty with 2 meds = suck). The only reason to use them was to be odd, and that is not exactly a good argument in a design/balance debate. This change really changes nothing for the Laser guy. 3. This is not and has nothing to do whatsoever with the promised Amarr Boost, that one will still come in some form or other. (Or at least that is what I believe, if it is not so you DO have a case to whine on lol) 4. Even if it is independent of the Amarr BoostÖ, this IS a boost to Amarr ships in that it offers variety. If you don't want to take it in your holy stubbornness fine, you have plenty of ships to suit your laser need. But don't diss it for more openminded people. 5. Yes I know talking to this particular target audience is like talking to a brick wall, but I had to at least try.
Pesadel0 Ordem dos Templarios Pax Atlantis	Posted - 2007.07.29 10:56:00 - [502] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 10:46:05 These changes most definitely suck for several reasons..... It'll make the ships more in line with the Khanid pseudo-philosophy of.c., but it'll also seriously screw over people who fly Amarr today and HAVEN'T trained missiles (at least until they do... wow, timesink!!!). In short, this'll take away the BEST (IMHO) Amarr small ships from the the people who haven't trained missiles (and yes, I'm one of them, 8m SP down the drain...)..... Heretic.... Great, we now can't use Amarr interdictors effectively until we've trained at least a couple of months!!! Malediction.... Great, we now can't use Amarr interceptors effectively (the crusader is not usable because of it's low number of mids)!!! Sacrilege... Great, take away the good Amarr HAC (it's survivable, Zealot isn't)!! Secondly, why the hell not FIX lasers instead of removing them? In effect, this removes a good part of the reason for Amarr to train lasers at all. Can someone explain to me why exactly lasers need a NERF? Let's see.... Caldari: 50% missile, 50% hybrid Gallente: 100% hybrid Amarr (new): 50% laser, 50% missile Minmatar: 75% projectile, 25% missile Leaving lasers as the absolutely LEAST represented weapon type in the game (and of.c. in the process screwing over people who trained them). The proposed Khanid ships are ok, but why the h*** add ANOTHER race that NEED to train missiles? This makes 3 out of 4... Gallente being the only one who doesn't, meaning they'll be the only ones who don't need to dual-train (wow, fly gallente and you need 6 months less training). Does Gallente really need another advantage???? So, while this might add some worthwhile ships to the game, I seriously think it's bad for so many reasons. It takes away variety from the game (hey, lets use missiles everyone), which IMHO is bad for the game!!! PS: I wonder whether this went on at CCP... Dev1: Damn, It's so annoying that people keep complaining over Amarr... Dev2: Yeah, why don't they just leave us alone... SeniorDev: Me too, let's punish them all... CCP: Hooray, NERF all Amarr!!! I will just lol. I was sworn to absolute secrecy BY CCP.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.29 10:56:00 - [503] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 29/07/2007 10:56:56 Goddamn even forum loses settings... Rossarian is my fkn alt... And the only thing I don't like about this is that the bonus is only to HAMs, not to Heavy missiles too... There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 10:58:00 - [504] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 11:03:03 Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Originally by: Kerfira My post lol i think sombody just maxed his laser skills^^ you know that you dont need to fly the khanid ships if you dont want to right? Nah, not maxed, but pretty decent (6m in gunnery) I have 4 chars btw, and only one of them is focusing on Amarr, and that in small ships mostly... I can train that character into flying Gallente instead in 3 months time...... The reason I mainly see this as bad is that it takes away a good part of the reason to actually use/train lasers at all, while it takes away one of the few good things about Amarr (that you didn't have to train 2 diff weapon types). With the changes, it actually makes more sense for a good Amarr small ship character to change to Gallente (or Minnie for that matter) than it does to add missile skills (since you've already got a good deal of the Gunnery skills). Decent missile skills 6-8m SP Hybrid + Gallente ships: 2-4m SP This means fewer Amarr small ships, and more Gallente, which isn't really what the game needs..... And this is just for older players... For new players, there'll be even LESS reason to train Lasers (or Amarr ships at all for that matter).... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:04:00 - [505] Originally by: Rossarian Geez, here comes the army of singleminded Amarr whiners. Please not a few things before you shed your tears on us: 1. Khanid ships were broken long before Amarr ones, back before RMR Amarr was plenty powerful while Khanid already sucked. So it is only fair that they get fixed first. 2. No monotheistic laser worshipping Amarr in his right mind (yes I know this is a contradiction in terms ) would use a Khanid ship over an Amarr one anyway (except maybe in the Inty case coz Inty with 2 meds = suck). The only reason to use them was to be odd, and that is not exactly a good argument in a design/balance debate. This change really changes nothing for the Laser guy. 3. This is not and has nothing to do whatsoever with the promised Amarr Boost, that one will still come in some form or other. (Or at least that is what I believe, if it is not so you DO have a case to whine on lol) 4. Even if it is independent of the Amarr BoostÖ, this IS a boost to Amarr ships in that it offers variety. If you don't want to take it in your holy stubbornness fine, you have plenty of ships to suit your laser need. But don't diss it for more openminded people. 5. Yes I know talking to this particular target audience is like talking to a brick wall, but I had to at least try. 1: Khanid ships were broken by the same reason i said earlier, the basis of those ships was flawed, which can be seen in the Amarr lack of combat effciency now. To fix khanid, one should first take a look at the original. 2: Vengeance for one, was the only pvp assault ship a "laser guy" could use to any efficiency, sure, the retribution has more power, but with one midslot...well...not that great. With the vengeance, you could fit it nicely. Now it NEEDS missiles to be of real use. Not that the use was/will be any better or at any standard, but now it's gonna go away from the laser guys arsenal. 3: Yes this has nothing to do with the boost amarr needs, the reason was that why the focus on half of the amarr t2 ships and the focus being, removing them from pure amarr pilots. 'cause that's what's happening now, half of t2 ships are going byebye from my flylist until i train missiles. 4: This is in no way a boost to amarr. It's a boost to khanid, and to some hybrid pilots, but not amarr. 5: Thinking and saying that is probably the reason why the brickwall is there. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:09:00 - [506] Originally by: Kerfira The reason I mainly see this as bad is that it takes away a good part of the reason to actually use/train lasers at all Uhm, lets see... Sarilege? Definitely no reason to train laser skills. Vengeance? Same Heretic? Even more so Damnation? If you want laserage you get an Abso. Anathema? Don't fight anyway. That leaves the only ship possibly ill affected for laser-for-brains the Malediction, and for normal players it will be a much better ship. (Giving the Crusader a 3rd medslot would fix the lack of a laser intie too). Originally by: Kerfira Decent missile skills 6-8m SP Decent clue? Priceless I use T2 torps and only have 2 mil total in missiles. I guess to be good with rockets and standards you need less than 1.5 mil SP. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:16:00 - [507] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Kerfira Decent missile skills 6-8m SP Decent clue? Priceless I use T2 torps and only have 2 mil total in missiles. I guess to be good with rockets and standards you need less than 1.5 mil SP. Your missile skills does not reach anything I'll term as 'decent'.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:20:00 - [508] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 29/07/2007 11:22:14 Originally by: Sheriff Jones 1: Khanid ships were broken by the same reason i said earlier, the basis of those ships was flawed, which can be seen in the Amarr lack of combat effciency now. To fix khanid, one should first take a look at the original. Like I said, back when Amarr ships were NOT broken yet Khanid already were. So Khanid were not broken for the same reason, the amarr nerf just broke them a bit more. Still seems fair that they get fixed first. Originally by: Sheriff Jones 2: Vengeance for one, was the only pvp assault ship a "laser guy" could use to any efficiency, sure, the retribution has more power, but with one midslot...well...not that great. With the vengeance, you could fit it nicely. Now it NEEDS missiles to be of real use. Not that the use was/will be any better or at any standard, but now it's gonna go away from the laser guys arsenal. I don't think Vengeance and nice fit in the same sentence match very well :P Retribution is much better for anything but solo work, and this is not a single player game . Not that I would not wholeheartedly agree with giving the Retri a second medslot. Originally by: Sheriff Jones 3: Yes this has nothing to do with the boost amarr needs, the reason was that why the focus on half of the amarr t2 ships and the focus being, removing them from pure amarr pilots. 'cause that's what's happening now, half of t2 ships are going byebye from my flylist until i train missiles. 4: This is in no way a boost to amarr. It's a boost to khanid, and to some hybrid pilots, but not amarr. That depends entirely in how you define Amarr. I define Amarr by the ships that require Amarr spaceship commmand skills to fly. You define Amarr by LaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaser.... Originally by: Sheriff Jones 5: Thinking and saying that is probably the reason why the brickwall is there. I don't know why it is there (Something to do with religious fanatics comes to mind ) but its existence is constantly proven in most Amarr ship balance threads and it has nothing to do with its detection by outsiders... There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:21:00 - [509] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 29/07/2007 11:33:21 Originally by: Kerfira Your missile skills does not reach anything I'll term as 'decent'.... Well if decent means spec skill 5 to you, I can't help you. I have another word for spec 5... Waste And the only reason to fly a Sacrilege over a Zealot is its price (Also the reason why I fly a Sac over a Zealot lol). Not because it is a good laser ship. Actually the price is the best indication that it is not. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:31:00 - [510] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 11:33:03 Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Kerfira Your missile skills does not reach anything I'll term as 'decent'.... Well if decent means spec skill 5 to you, I can't help you. I have another word for spec 5... Waste I haven't got a single spec 5... As you say, they're a waste only really beneficial for the tournament Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Horas Redwyne Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:38:00 - [511] Edited by: Horas Redwyne on 29/07/2007 11:41:18 Less cap use and free med slots. Its a huge win win. And this is coming from a laser speced char (13mil in gunnery - pulse). Was thinking about going along the missile path (bombers) but with this i just started to train it and will stick with it. This made my day!
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:39:00 - [512] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Like I said, back when Amarr ships were NOT broken yet Khanid already were. So Khanid were not broken for the same reason, the amarr nerf just broke them a bit more. Still seems fair that they get fixed first. Actually the main reason khanid was broke, because it was done half-a'd before. Just squeeze amarr and caldari together. And when it didn't work, well, "There ya go amarr! your new ships!"..gee thanks. Umm...put 'em in the back and leave 'em there. Now that they DO fix HALF our T2's, they make them even less amarr. THIS was the problem. Originally by: Leandro Salazar I don't think Vengeance and nice fit in the same sentence match very well :P Retribution is much better for anything but solo work, and this is not a single player game . Not that I would not wholeheartedly agree with giving the Retri a second medslot. Yes the vengeance wasn't anything epscial to begin with, well, neither was the retribution. But now it's completely out of the laser guys arsenal. If retri got another midslot, i'd be quite happy with assault ships altogether Originally by: Leandro Salazar That depends entirely in how you define Amarr. I define Amarr by the ships that require Amarr spaceship commmand skills to fly. You define Amarr by LaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaser.... Pure amarr was my point, and amarr is "laserlaserlaser" to some degree, always has been. Some amarr are more "a bit of missile, bit of drones, but still...lasers are a must." If there's some "Amarr" flying around in a armageddon with hybrids/projectiesl on it, he's NO Amarr and the emperor is turnihng in his grave. Somethings just are...Amarr. And like i did say, training missiles is somewhat acceptable, as now khanid ships seem to have a purpose. It was never a problem. The allocation of focus was. Originally by: Leandro Salazar I don't know why it is there (Something to do with religious fanatics comes to mind ) but its existence is constantly proven in most Amarr ship balance threads and it has nothing to do with its detection by outsiders... Well i'm no avid fan either, but calling all who oppose something brickwalls and fanatics will get you just that, a kick in the face. Be polite and you get polite answers. Though with me you get polite answers anyway So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Nephrops norvegicus Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:47:00 - [513] Personally it seems like CCP just want more people to use HAMs, so they are going to force the issue, and in the meantime fux the only versitile ships the amarr have. True amarr characters are better off training gallente than training missiles, and that path met universal agreement in alliance IRC a few moments ago.
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:51:00 - [514] Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 29/07/2007 11:54:33 Originally by: Kerfira Sacrilege... Great, take away the good Amarr HAC (it's survivable, Zealot isn't)!! It has the same amount of armor, with the same resists, the same amount of shield, the same capacitor, is faster and can fire it's weapons without using cap. How exactly is this version less survivable?
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:53:00 - [515] Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly It has the same amount of armor, with the same resists, the same amount of shield, the same capacitor, is faster and gains a low slot (at the expense of a highslot) and can fire it's weapons without using cap. How exactly is this version less survivable? I think he meant "take away the only good HAC 'cause Zealot(the omen variant) isn't a good one and i can't use this new Khanid 'cause i can't use missiles." So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:57:00 - [516] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 11:59:14 Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 29/07/2007 11:54:33 Originally by: Kerfira Sacrilege... Great, take away the good Amarr HAC (it's survivable, Zealot isn't)!! It has the same amount of armor, with the same resists, the same amount of shield, the same capacitor, is faster and can fire it's weapons without using cap. How exactly is this version less survivable? '5% bonus to all armor resistances per level' perhaps? Not to mention that its 4 mids (zealot has 3), makes it much more viable close-range since it can fit 2 webs, not just one (in addition to the warp scrambler...).... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Reite Aliastra	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:59:00 - [517] am i the only one with a char whos completly amarr specced, but at the same time like the changes?
Asestorian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:07:00 - [518] I have mixed feelings about this one. On one hand I do have a few missile skills that can be trained up, but on the other hand I've spent huge amounts of time training into gunnery, to the point where the only skills I have left to train are the specialisation skills to 5, or another races weapons. It will certainly be interesting flying these new ships. I'll definitely have a go with them, and probably enjoy them. But I really hope that some decent changes come to the original (Laser using) Amarr ships soon. --- ---
Queen Hopy Your Friendly Booster Company	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:18:00 - [519] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 12:08:03 The new one will not BE an Amarr HAC anymore... It'll be an armor tanking close-range Cerberus.... Exacly, and that is not what it should be. Make the missile dmg bonus to em/thermal or give cerberus a bonus to all missile types too.
RedClaws Amarr Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:21:00 - [520] nope I'm amarr specced and like these new changes. It's not like missles need a lot of time to train. I haven't flown the amarr inties since the +25% pulse tracking buff but I knew they before that I couldn't hit a darn thing in an inty. Any new thoughts on this?
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:23:00 - [521] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 12:08:03 Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 29/07/2007 11:54:33 Originally by: Kerfira Sacrilege... Great, take away the good Amarr HAC (it's survivable, Zealot isn't)!! It has the same amount of armor, with the same resists, the same amount of shield, the same capacitor, is faster and can fire it's weapons without using cap. How exactly is this version less survivable? '5% bonus to all armor resistances per level' perhaps? Not to mention that its 4 mids (zealot has 3), makes it much more viable close-range since it can fit 2 webs, not just one (in addition to the warp scrambler...).... The new one will not BE an Amarr HAC anymore... It'll be an armor tanking close-range Cerberus.... It keeps it 5% armor bonus, and 4 midslots. Did you even look at the SISI stats or are you basing yourself on something else? As for you feeling it's no longer an Amarr ship, well /shrug. Variety is a good thing in my book.
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:26:00 - [522] I'd like to point something out to those whining. I'm Amarr specced. I've used Lasers for the last 3 years on this character. I'm specced in Command Ships, Inties, Assaults, Heavy Assaults and Covert Ops. Whenenver I want to do gang support, the Damnation is my first choice. Whenenver I want to tank like a bastard, the Damnation or Sacrilege is my first choice. I fly an Anathema as scout. I adore the Malediciton for how it looks and flies. I have 40k in Missiles. I THINK THESE CHANGES ARE AWESOME. ADAPT. >>> THE BEAUTY OF NEW EDEN <<<
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:27:00 - [523] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Kerfira The reason I mainly see this as bad is that it takes away a good part of the reason to actually use/train lasers at all Uhm, lets see... Sarilege? Definitely no reason to train laser skills. Vengeance? Same Heretic? Even more so Damnation? If you want laserage you get an Abso. Anathema? Don't fight anyway. That leaves the only ship possibly ill affected for laser-for-brains the Malediction, and for normal players it will be a much better ship. (Giving the Crusader a 3rd medslot would fix the lack of a laser intie too). Originally by: Kerfira Decent missile skills 6-8m SP Decent clue? Priceless I use T2 torps and only have 2 mil total in missiles. I guess to be good with rockets and standards you need less than 1.5 mil SP. No, torps are the least skillpoint intensive of the missile classes because most of the support skills don't effect them. To be truly effective with any other missile type you need atleast 4million sp in missiles.
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:32:00 - [524] Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 29/07/2007 12:32:55 Originally by: welsh wizard No, torps are the least skillpoint intensive of the missile classes because most of the support skills don't effect them. To be truly effective with any other missile type you need atleast 4million sp in missiles. Only one skill doesn't affect Torpedos: Guided Missile Precision. And that goes for all unguided missiles: torps, rockets and HAMs.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:33:00 - [525] Replace damage bonus with ROF bonus, and don't make them limited to just HAM's. HAM range is limited to 14-15km, while even with crappier dps from lasers you could get 25-30km range, the main advantage of Amarr being high optimal, long engagement range with close range weapons. Either put a velocity bonus on HAM's on Damnation or make the ROF bonus generally applied to both HAM and HM, thus allowing us to engage at over 14km - same goes for the Sacrilege. And don't say "use javelins" javelins have a velocity drawback, which screws up the ideea of a close range armor tanked ship even more. PS: Damnation damage is still sucky. With 2 BCU's t2 best i can get is 263 dps - maxed skills i think. Change the Dam bonus to a ROF bonus. Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:34:00 - [526] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 12:36:21 Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly As for you feeling it's no longer an Amarr ship, well /shrug. Variety is a good thing in my book. Looks to me Caldari are the long range missile race, and Khanid is trying to fill in the close range missile niche. How is changing yet MORE ships into being missile ships adding variety???? It is TAKING away variety by making it even less attractive to train lasers. Missiles are already hugely popular and trained, while lasers aren't. Why exactly is it that missile users need a boost and laser users a nerf? These new khanid ships are very powerful ones (and I like them as such), but they take AWAY from a skill area that's got precious few good things going for it (lasers), and add to a skill area that's already very good (missiles). If this'd been new ships being added, I'd have had my hands just as high as the rest of you.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:35:00 - [527] You're right. Hes still ineffective with 2 million sp in missiles for anything other than npc death though...
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:37:00 - [528] AWESOMENESS ON A PLANE ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:42:00 - [529] Oh, and revise the cargo bay of the Khanid ships. 350m3 on a Damnation is hardly sufficient for missiles + cap charges. Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ.
Queen Hopy Your Friendly Booster Company	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:43:00 - [530] Originally by: Setana Manoro Edited by: Setana Manoro on 29/07/2007 12:34:20 Replace damage bonus with ROF bonus, and don't make them limited to just HAM's. HAM range is limited to 14-15km, while even with crappier dps from lasers you could get 25-30km range, the main advantage of Amarr being high optimal, long engagement range with close range weapons. Either put a velocity bonus on HAM's on Damnation or make the ROF bonus generally applied to both HAM and HM, thus allowing us to engage at over 14km - same goes for the Sacrilege. And don't say "use javelins" javelins have a velocity drawback, which screws up the ideea of a close range armor tanked ship even more. PS: Damnation damage is still sucky. With 2 BCU's t2 best i can get is 263 dps - maxed skills i think. Change the Dam bonus to a ROF bonus. PPS: Good thing i started last month missiles. :) So you are asking for the sacrilege to step even more on the toes of a cerberus?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:45:00 - [531] To use the missiles on these ship 'effectively', you need: Missle Launcher Op 5 = 256K Rockets 5 = 256K Heavy Assault Missiles 5 = 768K Missile Projection 4 = 181K Rapid Launch 4 = 90K HAM Spec 3 = 40K Rocket Spec 3 = 24K Missile Bomb. 4 = 90K TNP 4 = 90K WHU 3 = 40K For a grand total of 1.835 mil SP. So yeah its more than 1.5 mil but much less than 6 mil. And you can get away with MUCH less by not bothering training T2 and using faction ammo instead, and you don't lose out much. If you want all missiles of course it is a lot, but the beauty of missiles is that you can choose what to train and are not forced to train up the lesser weapons too like with guns. So to be decent in the new Sac, all you really need is roughly 800K sp. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:49:00 - [532] Originally by: Kerfira How is changing yet MORE ships into being missile ships adding variety??? It brings variety to the Amarr shipline, it also brings armor tanking missile boats.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:55:00 - [533] Originally by: Setana Manoro HAM range is limited to 14-15km, while even with crappier dps from lasers you could get 25-30km range, the main advantage of Amarr being high optimal, long engagement range with close range weapons. Jav HAMs can hit stuff op to 60k while having about the same dps as t1 heavies. Originally by: welsh wizard You're right. Hes still ineffective with 2 million sp in missiles for anything other than npc death though... Uhm.. you can get all missile support skills but GMP (which does not work with rockets & HAMs anyways) at 4, HAM5, MLO5 and HAM spec at 4 for a total of 1.929 mil SP. What makes it "ineffective for anything other than npc death" please? Doing 5% less dps due to having "only" rapid launch and warhead upgrades 4? Having only 87% of the range to to bombardment and projection 4? Or is the cruical stat having only 93% of the explosion velocity due to navigation prediction 4? It surely is beneficial to max those skills, but I kinda doubt that they will make the difference between effective & ineffective in PvP. You could as well claim that you need lvl 5 in every ship skill to be effective with it because the advantage you get from that is about the same as you get from maxing missile support skills.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:58:00 - [534] Originally by: Leandro Salazar ...So to be decent in the new Sac, all you really need is roughly 800K sp. No, that is not 'decent', that's (below) beginner level! To be 'decent' (PvP) you need all the aux. skills at least 4 (5 for the 'short' ones), and spec. at 4 Besides, you're completely misunderstanding... If this'd been new ships added, no problem, but it is TAKING AWAY the best (IMHO) small ships for laser users. Why do that? Are laser users so overpowered that they need nerfing??? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:58:00 - [535] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 12:59:21 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 12:58:59 But noone here can't argue the fact that laser flying pilots get one up the bum here again. I'm htinking that's what the major "problem" is with. More ships going away from the fly list because of speccing in lasers. OFCOURSE you can train, but like i said, what would the drone users say if suddenly they couldn't use EM/Thermal t2 drones unless they trained laser skills worth of 1.5mil? Originally by: Kerfira Besides, you're completely misunderstanding... If this'd been new ships added, no problem, Exactly. It's like taking 6 ships and saying "No, you can't fly 'em before you go back to school!" If they were a new branch, like, newly named khanid ships...nooooo problem. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:03:00 - [536] Originally by: Setana Manoro HAM range is limited to 14-15km, while even with crappier dps from lasers you could get 25-30km range, the main advantage of Amarr being high optimal, long engagement range with close range weapons. Jav HAMs can hit stuff op to 60k while having about the same dps as t1 heavies. Quote: And don't say "use javelins" javelins have a velocity drawback, which screws up the ideea of a close range armor tanked ship even more. Newsflash: you do not need to have them loaded at all times. Target outranges you: load jav hams. Target is at close range: load normal HAMs. Originally by: welsh wizard You're right. Hes still ineffective with 2 million sp in missiles for anything other than npc death though... Uhm.. you can get all missile support skills but GMP (which does not work with rockets & HAMs anyways) at 4, HAM5, MLO5 and HAM spec at 4 for a total of 1.929 mil SP. What makes it "ineffective for anything other than npc death" please? Doing 5% less dps due to having "only" rapid launch and warhead upgrades 4? Having only 87% of the range to to bombardment and projection 4? Or is the cruical stat having only 93% of the explosion velocity due to navigation prediction 4? It surely is beneficial to max those skills, but I kinda doubt that they will make the difference between effective & ineffective in PvP. You could as well claim that you need lvl 5 in every ship skill to be effective with it because the advantage you get from that is about the same as you get from maxing missile support skills.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:29:00 - [537] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 13:32:58 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Kerfira No, that is not 'decent', that's (below) beginner level! To be 'decent' (PvP) you need all the aux. skills at least 4 (5 for the 'short' ones), and spec. at 4 So around 4m SP. Less than 2 mil SP for that. See above. These are the absolute minimum skills you need...: GMP 4: 226k (and I'd even say this should be at 5, at 1280k) HAM 5: 768k HAM Spec 4: 226k MB 5: 512k MLO 5: 256k RL 5: 512k Rocket 5: 256k Rocket Spec 4: 135k WU 4: 226k Plus, you'll want these to give you flexibility in different tactical circumstances (just as you'll want both pulse and beam with laser): Standard 5: 512k Standard Spec 4: 135k Heavy 5: 768k Heavy Spec 5: 226k I fail to see how that is 2m SP..... If you're content with half-assed skills, of.c. you can do with less..... The above however, is the least any competent PvP'er would consider... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Xanos Blackpaw Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:33:00 - [538] you whiners out there thinks about this the wrong way. ohnoes!!! i need to train missiles because all the other amarr ships are crap!!11one!!! eleven!! but news flash!: this is just the boost for khanid ships. the amarr boost will come to, they have just not added it to sisi yet! Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:42:00 - [539] Edited by: Aramendel on 29/07/2007 13:43:31 To remind you of what you have written: Originally by: Kerfira To be 'decent' (PvP) you need all the aux. skills at least 4 (5 for the 'short' ones), and spec. at 4 GMP is not needed because the skill does not apply on rockets and HAMs, where the khanid ships get boni. It would be like training controlled bursts for projectiles. You don't need rocket AND HAM spec if you specialize on one ship. Thats 2.77 mil SP that way. Or 1.94 mil if you do not train RL5 (relatively minor boost) and MB5 (waste of SP really). If you spec for HAMs. If it's for rockets it is only 1.33 mil SP. Quote: Plus, you'll want these to give you flexibility in different tactical circumstances (just as you'll want both pulse and beam with laser) Exept there are no shipboni which effect ONLY pulse or ONLY beams. There are with missiles. If you want higher range you are better off using the jav ammo than fitting longrange missile launchers and loosing the damage bonus.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:45:00 - [540] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 13:46:45 Originally by: Aramendel Exept there are no shipboni which effect ONLY pulse or ONLY beams. There are with missiles. If you want higher range you are better off using the jav ammo than fitting longrange missile launchers and loosing the damage bonus. So because you get no bonus on the ships to a weapontype, you'll never want to fit it???? You fail at EVE.... And you, like the rest, are completely missing the point!.... This is not about Khanid getting a boost... It is about lasers being made even less attractive to train... Get a clue please.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:46:00 - [541] Edited by: Parallax Error on 29/07/2007 13:46:51 I don't understand why people who are "laser flying pilots" are so upset about this. I'm very much a laser orientated pilot ad I love the direction of the new Khanid ships. Please stop trying to muddy the waters between two issues, laser problems are not related to this. Lasers need a drop in cap use by 40-50% and the ship cap use bonus needs changing to say +10% armour HP per level. Back on topic, Khanid ships will now give the Amarr some much needed versatility without having to spec out too much. Only having to train missiles up is a hell of a lot easier than having to train a new line of ships plus extra support skills. I still really do think that the bonuses for Rockets/HAM's need to apply to the rest of the missiles as well. Especially in the case of the Vengeance and the Damnation as they are exceptionally slow ships. I don't accept that this will have an adverse effect on Caldari ships as they tend to have extra missile support skills for range and velocity. Edit: Either that or upgrade the range on HAM's, which imho would lead to balance issues elsewhere.
Aleranie	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:47:00 - [542] Don't confuse missile with gunnery guys. You dont need everything to 4-5 to be effective. heck, for a long period of time, missiles didnt have secondary skills at all! Dont forget: Most fights are going to be within web range You can hump their hull to screw their tracking if they are flying a turret ship. guided missile skills dont effect rockets/ham/torps at all. Target nav prediction doesn't make a significant difference on a webbed target either.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:51:00 - [543] Originally by: Kerfira The above however, is the least any competent PvP'er would consider... Tbh these kinds of 'competent' PvPers who only consider just shy of the very best as acceptable need to seriously think about their connection with reality. Maybe for solo work these top skills are all important, but in a gang you do fine with most skills at 4 and faction ammo. Sure you will WANT those skills eventually but you don't NEED them to use the ship to good effect. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:57:00 - [544] The more i look at it, the more I reckon Khanid ships need bonuses that apply to both missile and rocket tree's. And the Damnation could possibly use 6 launchers, mind you it might not if the Heavy missiles were bonused as well.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:00:00 - [545] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 14:02:26 To illustrate why this is so bad for laser users, look at the amount of ships (of the affected types, except cov-ops) pre-nerf and post-nerf. Pre-nerf (Interceptor/Interdictor/AS/HAC/Command Ship): Laser: 2/1/2/2/2 Hybrid: 3/1/3/3/3 Projectile: 2/1/2/2/2 Missile: 1/1/1/1/1 Post-nerf: Laser: 1/0/1/1/1 Hybrid: 3/1/3/3/3 Projectile: 2/1/2/2/2 Missile: 1/2/2/2/2 Laser users gets nerfed to only being able to use 4 of the 5 types, with only one ships available in each of those 4 classes..... From these numbers, if any race should be nerfed, it should be Gallente having one of their ships in each type made a missile ship.... THAT would balance the game between the different weapon types, where this will just create more in-equality... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Amberly Coteaz Amarr Tarnak inc. Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:04:00 - [546] Originally by: Parallax Error Edited by: Parallax Error on 29/07/2007 13:46:51 Back on topic, Khanid ships will now give the Amarr some much needed versatility without having to spec out too much. Only having to train missiles up is a hell of a lot easier than having to train a new line of ships plus extra support skills. I like the look of the new changes. Adds a bit of variaty and flexablity to the laser boat, laser boat, laser boat, arbitrator(+ t2), laser boat, laser boat lineup. Diablo 2 is five years old, and apparently that makes it more mature than the people who play it.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:07:00 - [547] Edited by: Aramendel on 29/07/2007 14:11:38 Originally by: Kerfira So because you get no bonus on the ships to a weapontype, you'll never want to fit it???? You fail at EVE.... If it makes that weapontype WORSE than the one where you get the boni in most definately. Fitting it would then be stupid because it would decrease the efficiency of the ship. Just because a fitting alternative exists does not make it a viable alternative. Are you telling vagabond pilots also to train for artillery? Quote: And you, like the rest, are completely missing the point!.... This is not about Khanid getting a boost... It is about lasers being made even less attractive to train... The point you are missing is that this adds a good deal of flexibility to amarr. Which is greatly needed. It only really changes 2 ships, the vegance and sacriledge, for everything else you already needed missile skills to fit them efficiently. Lasers have problems, but not having enough ships to use them on is by god none of them. Your "numbers" are also utterly invalid since it a) ignores the drone specced ships of gallente and b) ignores that most khanid ships already had split weapon systems and c) ignores all OTHER shipclasses. The khanid ships are for the total amount of laser ships only a relatively small percentage.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:10:00 - [548] If people don't get why this "miffs" pure Amarr/laser pilots....imagine the flycatcher: Launcher hardpoint 6 Turret hardpointsturret hardpoints 3 Now you have a bunch of flycatchers(and other caldari t2 ships) in your bay fitted and ready to go. In comes Kaaklaiota II!! Now your ships have turret slots(maybe 1 or two(max) laucher) only. Not to mention, those turret slots can ONLY fit lasers. Wouldn't this annoy at all? So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:12:00 - [549] Originally by: Aramendel Lasers have problems, but not having enough ships to use them on is by god none of them. It isn't... It will be... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:15:00 - [550] Originally by: Sheriff Jones [...]In comes Kaaklaiota II!! Now your ships have turret slots(maybe 1 or two(max) laucher) only. Not to mention, those turret slots can ONLY fit lasers. Wouldn't this annoy at all? Wrong, if they did change the flycathcer from missiles to guns like khanid, it would get rail bonus. That would be okay. Your point? ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:22:00 - [551] Edited by: Aramendel on 29/07/2007 14:22:02 Laser ships now: BS: 3, BC: 2, CS: 1.5, cruiser: 2, HAC: 2, destroyer: 1, dictor: 0.5, frigate: 2, inty: 1.5, AF: 2 Missile ships now: CS: 0.5, dictor: 0.5, inty 0.5, SB: 1 17.5 laser vs 2.5 missile ships. Khanid m2 Laser ships: BS: 3, BC: 2, CS: 1, cruiser: 2, HAC: 1, destroyer: 1, frigate: 2, inty: 1, AF: 1 Khanid m2 Missile ships: CS: 1, HAC: 1, dictor: 1, inty 1, AF: 1, SB: 1 14 laser vs 6 missile ships. Whoop-dee-doo! Laser ships are clearly dying!
Xanos Blackpaw Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:24:00 - [552] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 29/07/2007 14:22:02 Laser ships now: BS: 3, BC: 2, CS: 1.5, cruiser: 2, HAC: 2, destroyer: 1, dictor: 0.5, frigate: 2, inty: 1.5, AF: 2 Missile ships now: CS: 0.5, dictor: 0.5, inty 0.5, SB: 1 17.5 laser vs 2.5 missile ships. Khanid m2 Laser ships: BS: 3, BC: 2, CS: 1, cruiser: 2, HAC: 1, destroyer: 1, frigate: 2, inty: 1, AF: 1 Khanid m2 Missile ships: CS: 1, HAC: 1, dictor: 1, inty 1, AF: 1, SB: 1 14 laser vs 6 missile ships. Whoop-dee-doo! Laser ships are clearly dying! /SIGNED! Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:27:00 - [553] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 14:31:22 Originally by: Aramendel <Bunch of irrelevant numbers to confuse the issue...> Whoop-dee-doo! Laser ships are clearly dying! Your numbers would be more true (not to mention more honest and less manipulative), if you included the other races and weapon types (as I did). Lying and selectively choosing which data you present will not make your arguments more true.... I included the FULL numbers of the 5 types affected. You include a lot of other (irrelevant) shiptypes, exclude most ships of the affected types (other races), i.e. you're mixing apples with oranges. You did learn in school that you can't do that, right???? Otherwise I'd claim my math tuition fees back if I were you... As said, I don't give a damn whether they add new missile boats, but taking AWAY 5/9th (i.e. 55%) of the T2 laser boats is just way too far.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:30:00 - [554] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 14:31:04 Originally by: Perry Originally by: Sheriff Jones [...]In comes Kaaklaiota II!! Now your ships have turret slots(maybe 1 or two(max) laucher) only. Not to mention, those turret slots can ONLY fit lasers. Wouldn't this annoy at all? Wrong, if they did change the flycathcer from missiles to guns like khanid, it would get rail bonus. That would be okay. Your point? You're saying that you'd be ok, as a caldari pilot, if 5 of your ships suddenly couldn't fit missiles? The problem here is that they are changing existing, in the ship bay, in use ships in a very drastic way. THIS is always a BAD thing to do in games. (and no it's not the same as upgrading something or changing to remove exploits) People can't see why i would be a bit miffed about having a vengeance, fully T2 fitted and fitted to work in what i use it for, but when this comes, i can't fit any weapons apart from basic launchers on it. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:39:00 - [555] Edited by: Aramendel on 29/07/2007 14:41:42 Originally by: Kerfira Your numbers would be more true (not to mention more honest and less manipulative), if you included the other races and weapon types (as I did). Lying and selectively choosing which data you present will not make your arguments more true.... That is coming from someone who is treating ships with a split weapon bonus or fitting as turret only ships? Like the raptor, ares, malediction, eris and damnation? Nevermind the ishkur and ishtar which are primary drone ships Or who someone who says t1 ships do not matter and then complains that certain "fleet boats". I mean it's not like that fleets are made for the most part out of t1 ships, right? Oh wait... I am looking at the WHOLE picture. You are only looking at a small part of all used ships and on top of that are trying to make the real amount of the current missile ships look smaller than it is in reality. Kettle, meet pot. Notice how black it is?
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:40:00 - [556] To re-iterate, with percentages, these are the percentage numbers of direct combat T2 ships... Pre-nerf (Interceptor/Interdictor/AS/HAC/Command Ship): Laser: 2/1/2/2/2 = 25% Hybrid: 3/1/3/3/3 = 36% Projectile: 2/1/2/2/2 = 25% Missile: 1/1/1/1/1 = 14% Post-nerf: Laser: 1/0/1/1/1 = 11% Hybrid: 3/1/3/3/3 = 36% Projectile: 2/1/2/2/2 = 25% Missile: 1/2/2/2/2 = 25% Why T2 missile boats needs to be boosted by sacrificing laser boats when hybrids make up more than a third of the total is beyond me..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:42:00 - [557] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 14:42:58 Originally by: Aramendel I am looking at the WHOLE picture. This is the difference, true. If i look at the new khanid ship designs, they do look nice in a sense that this is how they should've maybe been and if i was starting this game anew, they would be just perfect for amarr pilots in versatility etc. But as it is, on a personal level, this nerfs me personally quite alot. Well, alot and alot, but removes a couple of ships from sights, removes a ship from my hangar and kinda ***es all over my current plans. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.*
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:49:00 - [558] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 14:54:54 Originally by: Aramendel That is coming from someone who is treating ships with a split weapon bonus or fitting as turret only ships? Like the raptor, ares, malediction, eris and damnation? Ok, so numbers are even MORE in favor of missiles...... You... foot... shoot.... Originally by: Aramendel I am looking at the WHOLE picture. No, you're not.... You're mixing T1 and T2 ships, which are different. Keep T1 unusables, T1 usables (battleships, possibly including tier-2 BC's), and T2 separate. T1 ships are reasonably well mixed, and nobody (in their right mind) uses sub-battleship T1 for PvP anyway. These changes only affect T2 ships, and only the direct combat types, leaving laser users with 4 of these, hybrids with 13, projectiles with 9 and missiles with 9 after the nerf. So, battleships are reasonably balanced between the weapon types. T1 unusables doesn't matter (really, they don't), and T2 lasers gets nerfed. No matter what deceptive numbers you try, you can't get around the fact that laser users gets shafted royally in the T2 ship area by this!!! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:54:00 - [559] Originally by: Sheriff Jones This is the difference, true. If i look at the new khanid ship designs, they do look nice in a sense that this is how they should've maybe been and if i was starting this game anew, they would be just perfect for amarr pilots in versatility etc. But as it is, on a personal level, this nerfs me personally quite alot. Well, alot and alot, but removes a couple of ships from sights, removes a ship from my hangar and kinda ***es all over my current plans. The point is that the "personal level" does not really matter in the long run. T2 BPO oweners got nerfed on the personal lvl by invention. Precision torp users got nerfed on the personal lvl by their nerf. Pilgrim users got nerfed on the personal lvl by the ECM changes. Nyx owners got nerfed on the personal lvl by their damage bonus nerf. And so on. What really matters is if the change is goot for the game. And the khanid changes are. Amarr needs some more flexibility. The khanid ships provide that. The only ships which are really* effected are the vegeance and the sacriledge, everything else already had a split weapon system (or wasn't really using weapons). For dedicated laserspecced vengeance and sacri pilot it kinda sucks, thats not question. But do we really need 2 ships in these classes which do efficiently the same thing? For AFs and HACs we have for gallente a gunship and a droneship, for minmatar a shield and an armortanker, for caldari a missile and a gunship. Do we need for amarr 2 gunships there?
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 14:58:00 - [560] Edited by: Aramendel on 29/07/2007 15:01:44 Originally by: Kerfira Ok, so numbers are even MORE in favor of missiles...... Wrong. The numbers mean that the change is way smaller than what you make it appear. Quote: No, you're not.... You're mixing T1 and T2 ships, which are different. Keep T1 unusables, T1 usables (battleships, possibly including tier-2 BC's), and T2 separate. Wrong. You are not "keeping them seperate", you are utterly 100% IGNORING them. Because they do not fit at all in your small number experiment. Originally by: Kerfira No matter what deceptive numbers you try, you can't get around the fact that laser users gets shafted royally in the T2 ship area by this!!! The amount of ships they can use with only laserskills gets reduced by a whooping total of two. For everything else you already needed missileskilsl since the ships in question had split weapon systems (or it would have been stupid to fit weapons in case of the anathema). So, no, not really. Their options got decreased very slightly, but overall the postive effect for the total amarr ship composition outweights this heavily.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:00:00 - [561] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 15:02:29 Originally by: Aramendel For AFs and HACs we have for gallente a gunship and a droneship, for minmatar a shield and an armortanker, for caldari a missile and a gunship. Do we need for amarr 2 gunships there? Mixing oranges and apples again.... You really need to get your school money back..... Gallente: 1 gunship, 1 gun/drone ship Minnie: 2 gunship Caldari: 1 gunship, 1 missile Amarr: 2 gunship Or.... Gallente: 2 armor tankers Minnie: 1 armor, 1 shield tanker Caldari: 2 shield tankers Amarr: 2 armor tankers Don't mix the two.... Oh, and the Amarr ones are different. One is a long-range sniper, one is a short-range slugger.... Again you go with your manipulative and untrue numbers.... Originally by: Aramendel Wrong. You are not "keeping them seperate", you are utterly 100% IGNORING them. Because they do not fit at all in your small number experiment. Of.c. I am ignoring them! T1 ships are completely and utterly irrelevant to the argument that Laser users gets ROYALLY SHAFTED in the T2 COMBAT SHIP AREA!!!!! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kather Evil Proctologists	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:02:00 - [562] Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 10:46:05 These changes most definitely suck for several reasons..... It'll make the ships more in line with the Khanid pseudo-philosophy of.c., but it'll also seriously screw over people who fly Amarr today and HAVEN'T trained missiles (at least until they do... wow, timesink!!!). In short, this'll take away the BEST (IMHO) Amarr small ships from the the people who haven't trained missiles (and yes, I'm one of them, 8m SP down the drain...)..... Heretic.... Great, we now can't use Amarr interdictors effectively until we've trained at least a couple of months!!! Malediction.... Great, we now can't use Amarr interceptors effectively (the crusader is not usable because of it's low number of mids)!!! Sacrilege... Great, take away the good Amarr HAC (it's survivable, Zealot isn't)!! Secondly, why the hell not FIX lasers instead of removing them? In effect, this removes a good part of the reason for Amarr to train lasers at all. Can someone explain to me why exactly lasers need a NERF? Let's see.... Caldari: 50% missile, 50% hybrid Gallente: 100% hybrid Amarr (new): 50% laser, 50% missile Minmatar: 75% projectile, 25% missile Leaving lasers as the absolutely LEAST represented weapon type in the game (and of.c. in the process screwing over people who trained them). The proposed Khanid ships are ok, but why the h*** add ANOTHER race that NEED to train missiles? This makes 3 out of 4... Gallente being the only one who doesn't, meaning they'll be the only ones who don't need to dual-train (wow, fly gallente and you need 6 months less training). Does Gallente really need another advantage???? So, while this might add some worthwhile ships to the game, I seriously think it's bad for so many reasons. It takes away variety from the game (hey, lets use missiles everyone), which IMHO is bad for the game!!! PS: I wonder whether this went on at CCP... Dev1: Damn, It's so annoying that people keep complaining over Amarr... Dev2: Yeah, why don't they just leave us alone... SeniorDev: Me too, let's punish them all... CCP: Hooray, NERF all Amarr!!! lol i think sombody just maxed his laser skills^^ you know that you dont need to fly the khanid ships if you dont want to right? lol yeah!! i have pretty maxed laser skills, and love amarr ships. currently training both minmitar and galente tho. i'll probably take time out of that training for missile skills if these changes come in. khanid ships have ALWAYS beem about missiles, and now they can actually be used properly (fyi i have about 3sp in missiles currently) also, gallente do need to cross train, as they're the only race i can think of that, with the exception of the curse and pilgrim, need to train up drones to a high level --------------------------------------------- Long live the Evil Proctologists!
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:04:00 - [563] Originally by: Sheriff Jones But as it is, on a personal level, this nerfs me personally quite alot. Well, alot and alot, but removes a couple of ships from sights, removes a ship from my hangar and kinda ****es all over my current plans. And for every person like you there is a person like me who has 2mil SP in Missiles next to his 5mil in (laser) gunnery for which these changes are very welcome.
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:04:00 - [564] Edited by: Lili Lu on 29/07/2007 15:06:10 Ok, I can adapt and train missile skills more. Not really ideal, and still no Amarr/laser cap fix. But, only bonuses to rockets and HAMs? Not much versatility there. Devs, please extend the damage bonus to standard missiles for frigs, and to heavys for the cruisers and BCs.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:09:00 - [565] Edited by: Aramendel on 29/07/2007 15:11:42 Originally by: Kerfira Mixing oranges and apples again.... You really need to get your school money back..... Last time I checked you used both the weapons and the tank at once. A ship is the sum of it's parts, not only half of it. Quote: Oh, and the Amarr ones are different. One is a long-range sniper, one is a short-range slugger.... The Sac and Zealot both get the 50% range bonus. The vengeance and retri, true. However that wasn't changed at all. The vengeance is still a "short-range slugger", it just uses missiles for it now. Which is actually beneficial for it, since it can now use all its cap for its tank. Quote: Of.c. I am ignoring them! T1 ships are completely and utterly irrelevant to the argument that Laser users gets ROYALLY SHAFTED in the T2 COMBAT SHIP AREA!!!!! So you admit that you are not looking at the whole picture, but only at a small part of it? Guess what, that gives you twisted results. You could call them even "manipulative and untrue" ones.... Originally by: Kerfira you're the one who keep dragging IRRELEVANT ships to the argument to support your desperate attempt to cover your ignorance.... Just to make this clear and make it easier for you to dig your own grave: you are calling ALL t1 ships "IRRELEVANT"?
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:16:00 - [566] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 15:18:14 Originally by: Aramendel Quote: Oh, and the Amarr ones are different. One is a long-range sniper, one is a short-range slugger.... The Sac and Zealot both get the 50% range bonus. The vengeance and retri, true. However that wasn't changed at all. Look at the slot distribution and other bonuses why Zealot is a long-range sniper and the Sac is a short-range slugger.... Originally by: Aramendel Quote: Of.c. I am ignoring them! T1 ships are completely and utterly irrelevant to the argument that Laser users gets ROYALLY SHAFTED in the T2 COMBAT SHIP AREA!!!!! So you admit that you are not looking at the whole picture, but only at a small part of it? No, I AM looking at the whole picture, FOR T2 COMBAT SHIPS, of which laser users will be left with 11% (with the other weapon types at 36%/25%/28%). You're the one dragging OTHER pictures into the frame... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:18:00 - [567] Originally by: Aleranie I think Kerfira has either a zealot bpo or one for lasers :-D I wish No T2 BPO's here Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Xizor Faleen	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:21:00 - [568] Originally by: Parallax Error The more i look at it, the more I reckon Khanid ships need bonuses that apply to both missile and rocket tree's. And the Damnation could possibly use 6 launchers, mind you it might not if the Heavy missiles were bonused as well. Why? So that the Amarr HAC can be a better missile boat then the Cerberus, which is supposed to be the best missile boat in the game? Khanid is getting bonuses to unguided missiles, leaving Caldari ships to be the specialists for long range guided missiles. As a HAM Spec V Cerberus Pilot with 0 pts in Amarr ships, I'm ok with that. I just picked up my Amarr Frigate and Cruiser skill books and I am going to work on them now. Why? Because the Sac. and the Damnation are now Better HAM platforms than my trusty Cerberus.
Helluin Caldari Ascension Ltd. Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:22:00 - [569] Originally by: Xizor Faleen Originally by: Parallax Error The more i look at it, the more I reckon Khanid ships need bonuses that apply to both missile and rocket tree's. And the Damnation could possibly use 6 launchers, mind you it might not if the Heavy missiles were bonused as well. Why? So that the Amarr HAC can be a better missile boat then the Cerberus, which is supposed to be the best missile boat in the game? Khanid is getting bonuses to unguided missiles, leaving Caldari ships to be the specialists for long range guided missiles. As a HAM Spec V Cerberus Pilot with 0 pts in Amarr ships, I'm ok with that. I just picked up my Amarr Frigate and Cruiser skill books and I am going to work on them now. Why? Because the Sac. and the Damnation are now Better HAM platforms than my trusty Cerberus. Blast it. That's me.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:25:00 - [570] Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly And for every person like you there is a person like me who has 2mil SP in Missiles next to his 5mil in (laser) gunnery for which these changes are very welcome. That's probably why you don't say "I'm a bit miffed at this". Never said i couldn't adapt, or train, or do this and that. Doesn't make it right though. Release these ships as added ships, no problem. Originally by: Aramendel The point is that the "personal level" does not really matter in the long run. T2 BPO oweners got nerfed on the personal lvl by invention. Precision torp users got nerfed on the personal lvl by their nerf. Pilgrim users got nerfed on the personal lvl by the ECM changes. Nyx owners got nerfed on the personal lvl by their damage bonus nerf. And so on. "Bit" different changes then changing all turretslots to missile slots. Also, fixing something(or changing to avoid explits) is a bit different then changing something completely. If things didn't matter in the personal level, people wouldn't say "no" to anything. Bet there's changes you don't like? Those concerns should be voiced. As such, they destroyed a good part of ships and made them, something different. Now unlike other races, unless i train anothre weapon system, i can't really use half our t2 ships and interdictors are totally out of the question. So again, you can understand why this would come across as an annoyance and a bad thing. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Tebis Templars of Space Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:29:00 - [571] Ugh.. These changes are ruining some of laser users best tanking ships .. you say missiles are better due to the fact that you can dedicate more cap to tanking.. that might be true.. but what about those of us who are laser specialists.. I have 0 sp in missiles.. never liked missiles and do not care to train them.. but now a trusty tanking HAC (the sacrilege) is turned into a missile boat .. yes it still has an awesome tank.. but you need missiles to use it efficiently.. and no current laser problems are fixed.. just another slam to laser users.. why oh why do you hate us CCP
Myndpyre Ryche Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:30:00 - [572] The changes are looking good. Keep the velocity and range bonuses to Caldari, and change the Rocket and HAM damage bonus type to EMP only, and this will balance out quite nicely.
Xanos Blackpaw Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:31:00 - [573] some body mentioned above that the vengance is a short range slugger. i agree fully on that and now when i tried it on sisi i could put dual rep on it!! true i used a cap rig and 2 med slots to mke it cap stabile but holy ****! a cap stabile dual repping frig! Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:32:00 - [574] Edited by: Aramendel on 29/07/2007 15:34:18 Originally by: Kerfira Look at the slot distribution and other bonuses why Zealot is a long-range sniper and the Sac is a short-range slugger.... The zealot is actually a very efficient fleet sniper. Compare to the SAC it has more dps and the same range and a better agility, which is important there. The SACs resistance bonus means squat there because if it gets primaried the only way for either ship to survive is to warp out in time. Quote: No, I AM looking at the whole picture, FOR T2 COMBAT SHIPS, of which laser users will be left with 11% (with the other weapon types at 36%/25%/28%). You're the one dragging OTHER pictures into the frame... Exept those numbers are wrong, as I said already 3 times. You are handeling ships with split weapon boni or fittings as pure gunships. The raptor, ares, malediction, eris, heretic, damnation, ishkur and ishtar to be exact. To use your own words, you are using "manipulative and untrue numbers". And there is only one "whole picture". That which takes all commonly used ships of all classes into account. You are constantly pigeonholing yourself into a small part of eve whithout any arguments outside OMG CAPS LOCK!!!
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:35:00 - [575] Originally by: Xizor Faleen Originally by: Parallax Error The more i look at it, the more I reckon Khanid ships need bonuses that apply to both missile and rocket tree's. And the Damnation could possibly use 6 launchers, mind you it might not if the Heavy missiles were bonused as well. Why? So that the Amarr HAC can be a better missile boat then the Cerberus, which is supposed to be the best missile boat in the game? Khanid is getting bonuses to unguided missiles, leaving Caldari ships to be the specialists for long range guided missiles. As a HAM Spec V Cerberus Pilot with 0 pts in Amarr ships, I'm ok with that. I just picked up my Amarr Frigate and Cruiser skill books and I am going to work on them now. Why? Because the Sac. and the Damnation are now Better HAM platforms than my trusty Cerberus. Yes, if anything this could be a boost to Caldari characters. Might not really help Amarr pilots as much. I just would like the option of using long or short range launchers. The proposed changes to the Sac don't give flight time or velocity bonuses so will not challenge the cerb for missile range. It's just that if the proposed changes stay the Sac HAS to be a short range ship. At least on laser ships you can still decide to use pulses or beams (if you can overcome the beam fitting problems).
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:45:00 - [576] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 15:50:02 Originally by: Aramendel You are handeling ships with split weapon boni or fittings as pure gunships. The raptor, ares, malediction, eris, heretic, damnation, ishkur and ishtar to be exact. To use your own words, you are using "manipulative and untrue numbers". Heh, if you're not smart enough to see that my numbers actually make things LESS in the favor of missiles (i.e. that I'm giving missiles the advantage of doubt), you're even worse at math than I thought..... Today, given my way of numbering, laser boats has 25% of the T2 combat ships. If I use your type of numbering, it's WORSE, with missiles being BETTER than my numbers! My numbers after the laser nerf, are accurate, i.e. that laser boats will have 11% of the T2 combat ships, and missiles 28% (with hybrids the absolute best at 36%). If counting in the partial caldari missile/gun T2 ships as partial, hybrid gets a little bit worse, and missile even better. Lasers though, stay at 11% of the T2 combat ships! Since your math is not up to speed, you should know that an EQUAL and FAIR distribution between the 4 weapon types would be for each to have 25%. Lasers don't have a 'dictor (missiles will have 2). They have 1 of each other type (missiles having 2, hybrids more). None of the other weapon types are (even close to being) as bad off.... So sorry, nothing manipulative here. Just the awful truth: Laser users getting nerfed! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Tebis Templars of Space Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:46:00 - [577] That is true.. This is more of a boost for caldari than amarr.. In comparison the times for training amarr frig 4 and amarr cruiser 5 with already max'd HAM skills is less than the training time for an amarr pilot with little or no sp in missiles to max HAM skills I guess if you have already crosstrained it is good for you.. but for those of us who haven't .. it really sucks
Aleranie	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:50:00 - [578] Quote: So sorry, nothing manipulative here. Just the awful truth: Laser users getting nerfed! This is so ******** its not even funny. all of these ships were pretty gimped compared to their counterparts, as zealot/crusader/etc were the clearly better gunship. This is not the amarr fix by a long shot, but its clearly not a nerf to lasers either.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:53:00 - [579] Originally by: Aleranie Quote: So sorry, nothing manipulative here. Just the awful truth: Laser users getting nerfed! This is so ****** its not even funny. all of these ships were pretty gimped compared to their counterparts, as zealot/crusader/etc were the clearly better gunship. This is not the amarr fix by a long shot, but its clearly not a nerf to lasers either. So how is removing 5 out of 9 of the T2 laser combat boats not a nerf??? Crusader is indeed a better gunship, but it's not usable as an interceptor because of too few mid-slots. Zealot is a good ship in its own way (long-range), but has a different use than the Sacrilege. For fleet support, I definitely prefer the Sacrilege as it can mount 2 webs and a warp disruptor (and has a better tank). Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 15:54:00 - [580] Originally by: Kerfira Heh, if you're not smart enough to see that my numbers actually make things LESS in the favor of missiles, you're even worse at math than I thought..... Wrong. You constantly keep mentioning the 36% of hybrid ships while ignoring that quite a lot of them are no real gunships. Quote: Today, given my way of numbering, laser boats has 25% of the T2 combat ships. If I use your type of numbering, it's WORSE, with missiles being BETTER than my numbers! The point is not how it is now, the point is how it is after the nerf. Quote: My numbers after the laser nerf, are accurate, i.e. that laser boats will have 11% of the T2 combat ships, and missiles 28% (with hybrids the absolute best at 36%). They are incorrect because they, as said, ignore the considerable numbers of turret/missile and turret/drone hybrids of gallente ships. Quote: So sorry, nothing manipulative here. Just the awful truth: Laser users getting nerfed! If you really think that the number of ships using a weapon system does indicate a weapon systems performance you are delusional... And of cource you are still ignoring everything t1 even though it has an HUGE impact on the gameplay and missileships are actually a minority there. As said, you are looking at it from a limited, flawed viewpoint.
Aleranie	Posted - 2007.07.29 16:03:00 - [581] Malediction is still a better interceptor than crusader, because of the mid slot buff. The weapons on an intie? not so very important. I seriously don't see how anyone can be upset about these changes. These ships went from second-rate in their own race/class group to something thats entirely unique in this game. Armor tanking missiles ships, thats just so sweet its not funny. You argument that its a nerf to lasers ebcause choice is reduced is without merit. Simply because the zealot, crusader, retribution, absolution are still in game and are still perfect laser ships. They still suck compared to other races, but thats because lasers do em damage, but thats not relevant to this arguement either.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 16:04:00 - [582] Originally by: Aramendel Quote: My numbers after the laser nerf, are accurate, i.e. that laser boats will have 11% of the T2 combat ships, and missiles 28% (with hybrids the absolute best at 36%). They are incorrect because they, as said, ignore the considerable numbers of turret/missile and turret/drone hybrids of gallente ships. So you're claiming you're not using manipulation???? You forgot to include this part of my post (which came just after the part you quoted): Originally by: Kerfira If counting in the partial caldari missile/gun T2 ships as partial, hybrid gets a little bit worse, and missile even better. Lasers though, stay at 11% of the T2 combat ships! Talk about being manipulative.... Originally by: Aramendel If you really think that the number of ships using a weapon system does indicate a weapon systems performance you are delusional... Given the way balancing goes, the weapon system that has 4 out of 36 of the T2 combat boat doesn't have a good chance of having usable ships. Hybrid/missile has 23 out of the 36 available ships, thus a much better chance.... Yes, numbers does matter in this..... And yes, I'm ignoring T1 ships completely since they have no relevance in balancing the T2 ships between weapon systems..... (apples+oranges+math+you still doesn't work)... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 16:06:00 - [583] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 16:07:53 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 16:06:17 Originally by: Aramendel Thats no real option since it would result in ...well... new ships. Other races would then (rightfully) demand new ships, too. The thing is that the khanid changes ARE to fix a amarr specific balance problem, so they are vary compareable to other changes. The balance problem being that a) amarr need some flexibility and b) most split weapon system khanid ships sucked. I can definately understand why someone who prefers that ship and is fully laser specced is annoyed by that, but as said, if something is good for the whole is a lot more important than if something is good for some individuals. EVE is an MMORPG, one core characteristc of these games is that they are constantly in motion and evolve, nothing is guaranteed to be the same way forever. That's gnna come back and bite you in the assets. Trust me. You can, in effect, never complain about anything that changes in the game, ever. Anyway, this change doesn't help amarr at all. Sure, if you have trained missiles as an amarr pilot(gods only know why...), then this is a nice change. But other then that, it hurts us pilots. Less choices or more things to train. How can that be a "good thing" for Amarr pilots? The "kicking few in the teeth for the sake of whole" has always been used as a cop-out, but it doesn't make it right. The fact is, this is ONLY a good change if you have trained missiles. Other then those members of the Amarr race, it's a kick in the teeth, and to some, a very big one. Personally? I just found out with this that training my interceptors(in effect evasive maneuvering) was a waste of time. So what, 10-15 days down the drain? UNLESS i train missiles, which is another 20 days atleast of my time to use an interdictor. Does any other race have to train lasers/a whole new weapon branch to use a class of ship? And people complain about losing gametime when servers are down an extra hour. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Valdimir Therin	Posted - 2007.07.29 16:14:00 - [584] Quote: The fact is, this is ONLY a good change if you have trained missiles. Other then those members of the Amarr race, it's a kick in the teeth, and to some, a very big one. Are you for real? You are talking like the inquisition burns any amarri caught mounting launchers, when at least half the ships in the amarr fleet already have missile mounts as a secondary. Every decent amarr pilot has always trained missiles up once he hits a slowdown on the returns of training lasers. These( the khanid) ships were intended from day one to use missiles as a primary/secondary weapon choice. Except ccp has finally realized that ships with split weapon types don't work very well. Its been that way since HMS Dreadnought rolled of the slip and every slapped themselves on the head and realized a unified weapon system was much stronger than mixed. So the choice was make them into dedicated gunships like their brethren, but then why have them at all? Every other tech2 ship was unique in its role. See the difference between ishtar/deimos? The Eagle and the Cerberus? That's what they want. This does that, and its a very good change.
The Armin Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.29 16:32:00 - [585] To the guy saying that a Crusader isn't viable cause it only has two mids, l2p.. Crusader is today by far the better ceptor than the malediction, and that is because it can fit 4 dual light beams II, mount Aurora and orbit out of web range, nos range too if you buy a t2 disruptor. And it can keep all mods on if you use the lows for CPR's instead of tank. In any fleet fight, it's excellent for shooting hostile ceptors, dictors, and some t1 cruisers. The only ceptor beating it is the Crow, dunno how the new Malediction with lights would do vs Crow tbh, but I want to find out. I like the Sac too, were able to grab two before the prices skyrocketed. I gotta train missiles as well, I have 8k SP.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.29 16:34:00 - [586] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 15:16:59 To re-iterate, with percentages, these are the percentage numbers of direct combat T2 ships... Pre-nerf (Interceptor/Interdictor/AS/HAC/Command Ship): Laser: 2/1/2/2/2 = 25% Hybrid: 3/1/3/3/3 = 36% Projectile: 2/1/2/2/2 = 25% Missile: 1/1/1/1/1 = 14% Post-nerf: Laser: 1/0/1/1/1 = 11% Hybrid: 3/1/3/3/3 = 36% Projectile: 2/1/2/2/2 = 25% Missile: 2/2/2/2/2 = 28% Why T2 missile boats needs to be boosted by sacrificing laser boats when hybrids make up more than a third of the total is beyond me..... Now let us normalize your numbers for races that use said weapon types as significant weapon system: Pre-nerf (Interceptor/Interdictor/AS/HAC/Command Ship): Laser - Amarr = 25% Hybrid - Caldari: 18% Hybrid - Gallente: 18% Projectile - Minmatar = 25% Missile - Caldari = 7% Missile - Amarr = 7% Post-nerf: Laser - Amarr = 11% Hybrid - Caldari = 18% Hybrid - Gallente = 18% Projectile - Minmatar = 25% Missile - Caldari = 14% Missile - Amarr = 14% (I only used your numbers and divided by races, if the exact numbers yield something significantly different please do them) So really, looks relatively fine to me. Make some minmatar ships use lasers and it will be perfect. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Valdimir Therin	Posted - 2007.07.29 16:35:00 - [587] Quote: the Khanid ships had a CHOICE between missiles/turrets Not really, they didnt. Sac on live for example: 4x turret slots despite having 6 high slots. 2x damage bonus for skills on lasers, as opposed to 3 on the zealot, and the difference in slots mean the sacrilege didn't even have a stronger tank. So on the face of it, its entirely inferior. It is the second-rate choice that is only flown because it is until today markedly cheaper than the zealot.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 16:39:00 - [588] Originally by: Kerfira So you're claiming you're not using manipulation???? You forgot to include this part of my post (which came just after the part you quoted):... Why are you claiming those numbers are correct when they are quite obviously aren't? Quote: Given the way balancing goes, the weapon system that has 4 out of 36 of the T2 combat boat doesn't have a good chance of having usable ships. Hybrid/missile has 23 out of the 36 available ships, thus a much better chance.... There is no "chance" per weapon system for "good" and "bad" ships. You are creating fantasy scenarios now. There are only 2 t2 ships total which have a drone bonus without the recons, for example. Ishkur and ishtar. Funnily enough both are pretty good, even though they have the most limited selection of all t2 ships. Quote: And yes, I'm ignoring T1 ships completely since they have no relevance in balancing the T2 ships between weapon systems..... Balance does not happen in only one area. Especially since you are not arguing about the performance balance between ships but of the distribution balance between missiles and turrets.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 16:39:00 - [589] Originally by: Valdimir Therin Not really, they didnt. Sac on live for example: 4x turret slots despite having 6 high slots. 2x damage bonus for skills on lasers, as opposed to 3 on the zealot, and the difference in slots mean the sacrilege didn't even have a stronger tank. So on the face of it, its entirely inferior. It is the second-rate choice that is only flown because it is until today markedly cheaper than the zealot. Ofcourse we could pick apart every ship and see what happens, like i did with the interdictor(gonna be only one and it's a missile boat? ), but we'd have a long night. I'm trying to show people that this isn't all good. The problem with people is if tey think something is good, nothing can't be bad. Much like with those people who only see bad. I allready said this is probably, in the long run, a good way to go and in the overall, yes, can see it being a good thing. but fck me does it change everything i planned and limit my choices options for the future. I thought i didn't have to bother with missiles, but if i want to fly an interdictor...guess what? So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.*
Frothgar Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.29 16:41:00 - [590] Really loving the change.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 16:45:00 - [591] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 16:45:26 Did forget to say that the caldari money hogging bastards(love you guys) with missile/launcher bpo's must be celebrating in lonetrek So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Lord Loom Loom Service Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.07.29 16:48:00 - [592] Originally by: Tebis Ugh.. These changes are ruining some of laser users best tanking ships .. you say missiles are better due to the fact that you can dedicate more cap to tanking.. that might be true.. but what about those of us who are laser specialists.. I have 0 sp in missiles.. never liked missiles and do not care to train them.. but now a trusty tanking HAC (the sacrilege) is turned into a missile boat .. yes it still has an awesome tank.. but you need missiles to use it efficiently.. and no current laser problems are fixed.. just another slam to laser users.. why oh why do you hate us CCP train missiles? adapt or die? and seriously, "oh noes diversity, hills, run, etc.!"? some days training and your suckrilege turns into a better ship, what's so bad about this? ---------- KEEP TRY!!!
Tebis Templars of Space Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 17:32:00 - [593] I will not be training missiles.. I'll just not use a sac or malediction or damnation or vengeance.. I use lasers because I like them and do not have to carry around ammo.. I will stick to that.. but I still dislike this change as it limits the amount of ships I have the choice to fly really
Romulus Maximus Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.29 17:38:00 - [594] Tbh...i dont care what happens to these ships, apart from the Damnation. The rest has sucked and been inferior for ages. Not that i think these changes will change that. I wont be training for missiles. I have very low sp in them, as i rarely use them. And thats not because i dotn want to adapt..id just rather train for Gallente for example, than waste my time on missiles for Amarr ships :o Its a bit late in the day for these kind of radical changes imo, but i hope it improves the ships for those that have or want to have the relevent missile skills. Lord knows there way under used, somthing needs to be done. I however dotn think this is it. They may be better than they are now. My only concern is the Damnation, a ship which takes months to fly anyway, is now going to need a lot of time to get missile skills up for it. This isnt a whine either, just my opinion. I rarely fly any of them, so im not too fussed. Just the Damnation is fine as it is imo. snip Your signature was inappropriate. Email [email protected] with a link to your signature if you have questions. -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) Current RKK Ranking:(AMM15) Ace - 1000+ kills - Need more ranks! (Fox)targets are lewt,just not yet in can form
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 17:40:00 - [595] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 17:42:48 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Kerfira So you're claiming you're not using manipulation???? You forgot to include this part of my post (which came just after the part you quoted):... Why are you claiming those numbers are correct when they are quite obviously aren't? Ok, I'd like for you to show me how 4 ships out of 36 is not 11% (Well, it is 11.11111....%, but apart from that they're correct) Your abilities for math are reaching a new low Originally by: Aramendel Quote: Given the way balancing goes, the weapon system that has 4 out of 36 of the T2 combat boat doesn't have a good chance of having usable ships. Hybrid/missile has 23 out of the 36 available ships, thus a much better chance.... There is no "chance" per weapon system for "good" and "bad" ships. You are creating fantasy scenarios now. Ehhh, no..... When CCP balances ships, it IS pretty much chance based whether they'll be good or not. 4 out of 36 doesn't leave good odds... 23 out of 36 is MUCH better... Originally by: Aramendel Quote: And yes, I'm ignoring T1 ships completely since they have no relevance in balancing the T2 ships between weapon systems..... Balance does not happen in only one area. Especially since you are not arguing about the performance balance between ships but of the distribution balance between missiles and turrets. Yes, I'm arguing that having only 11% of the T2 combat ships using lasers is im-balanced, since the other 3 weapon types will then have 89% of those ships... Why is it that T2 combat ships are not allowed to be balanced IN THEIR OWN AREA???? Are laser users to be confined to T1 ships (and a very few T2), whereas the 'grown-ups' (missile/hybrid users) are allowed to use the majority of the T2 ones???? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Silas Vitalia Khanid Provincial Vanguard Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.07.29 18:32:00 - [596] While I'm not looking forward to training up my lax missile skills as a pure Amarr/laser player, I'm actually very excited about these changes. The whole idea of the Khanid ships was that they would be amarr/caldari hybrids, armor tanking missle boats, and now they finally will be. -Changing the laser bonuses to cap recharge bonuses, along with not having to use cap for lasers since we'll be shooting missles, means these things will tank quite nicely. -Not having to waste a few module slots just to keep your cap recharge up for laser usage is also going to be interesting -Being able to shoot something other that EM/Therm in an Amarr boat will also do wonders for us. These changes have 'been coming' longer than many of you have been playing, so it's nice to see them actually happening. Now if we could get those regular Amarr ship fixes sometime in the next 5 years I'll just be on cloud 9 ;) -Executor Khanid Provincial Authority -CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard KPA Public Comms: Khanidpublic
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 19:01:00 - [597] Edited by: Aramendel on 29/07/2007 19:02:37 Originally by: Kerfira ..Ok, I'd like for you to show me how 4 ships out of 36 is not 11% (Well, it is 11.11111....%, but apart from that they're correct) Reading comprehension is not your strength, is it? Let me repeat myself: They are incorrect because they, as said, ignore the considerable numbers of turret/missile and turret/drone hybrids of gallente ships. See the word "laser" there? Your hybrid numbers are wrong, always were yet you keep repeating them mantralike. Quote: Ehhh, no..... When CCP balances ships, it IS pretty much chance based whether they'll be good or not. 4 out of 36 doesn't leave good odds... 23 out of 36 is MUCH better... As said, 2 out of your 36 ships are drone ships. Both are quite good. Guess they were just "lucky"? Quote: Yes, I'm arguing that having only 11% of the T2 combat ships using lasers is im-balanced, since the other 3 weapon types will then have 89% of those ships... Why is it that T2 combat ships are not allowed to be balanced IN THEIR OWN AREA???? Because it is an artifical restriction? The game consists of all ships, t1 and t2. Quote: Are laser users to be confined to T1 ships (and a very few T2), whereas the 'grown-ups' (missile/hybrid users) are allowed to use the majority of the T2 ones???? So you came to the brilliant conclusion that someone who specced into two weapontypes can use more ships than someone who specced into one weapontype? No **** sherlock, you truly are an intellectual titan amongst men...
Wintermoon Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.29 19:10:00 - [598] Edited by: Wintermoon on 29/07/2007 19:10:04 I am only reading this thread for the exchange between Aramendel and Kerfira. It is like a Jerry Springer episode, but without the midgets slapping each other. (love the changes by the way)
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 19:26:00 - [599] Originally by: Wintermoon ...but without the midgets slapping each other... What do you think we've been doing since a page?
throbbinnoggin Gallente Eminent Domain	Posted - 2007.07.29 19:32:00 - [600] Originally by: Wintermoon Edited by: Wintermoon on 29/07/2007 19:10:04 I am only reading this thread for the exchange between Aramendel and Kerfira. It is like a Jerry Springer episode, including midgets slapping each other. (love the changes by the way) Corrected Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. 'Abraham Lincoln'
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 19:32:00 - [601] Seeing as HAM's have finally been brought to the fore by this change, they really ought to have their flight time increased to 5 seconds.
Xanos Blackpaw Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2007.07.29 19:37:00 - [602] Originally by: Parallax Error Seeing as HAM's have finally been brought to the fore by this change, they really ought to have their flight time increased to 5 seconds. agree. or maybe give the ships a flight flight time bonus. i have been playing around a bit with HAMs and i like them...but they need some change. like maybe a 10km range as base? Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Siobhan Ni Gallente Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.29 19:54:00 - [603] Glad I maxed out all my laser skills. Why not change the raven bonus while your at it... to auto cannons or something else completely random. How about just making lasers better? If I wanted a missile boat I'd fly caldari.
Tamoko Damage Unlimited Inc	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:00:00 - [604] Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Originally by: Parallax Error Seeing as HAM's have finally been brought to the fore by this change, they really ought to have their flight time increased to 5 seconds. agree. or maybe give the ships a flight flight time bonus. i have been playing around a bit with HAMs and i like them...but they need some change. like maybe a 10km range as base? I agree completely. It'd be nice to see them get an extra few seconds of flight time. Until we get that change, I'll be planning to use the long-range tech2 variants on my sacrilege. I've seen them used to create success on ganky drakes, no reason why it shouldn't work on the sac.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:03:00 - [605] Originally by: Siobhan Ni Glad I maxed out all my laser skills. Why not change the raven bonus while your at it... to auto cannons or something else completely random. How about just making lasers better? If I wanted a missile boat I'd fly caldari. They already did. The Raven was a rail boat before they changed it. And its not like your laser skills, would have beeen put to use on the previously absolutly ***ty Khanid ships that was previous. FFS, they changed some previously useless ships into usefull ships. The freaking sacriledge did less laser DPS than the MALLER. The f'ing Maller, which does less DPS than all combat cruisers in the game except the stabber! Yea, putting those laser skills to real* good use. So just shut the hell up about the laser issue, this is about changing ****ty missile/laser split weapon ships into decent missile ships.
Siobhan Ni Gallente Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:05:00 - [606] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Siobhan Ni Glad I maxed out all my laser skills. Why not change the raven bonus while your at it... to auto cannons or something else completely random. How about just making lasers better? If I wanted a missile boat I'd fly caldari. They already did. The Raven was a rail boat before they changed it. And its not like your laser skills, would have beeen put to use on the previously absolutly ***ty Khanid ships that was previous. FFS, they changed some previously useless ships into usefull ships. The freaking sacriledge did less laser DPS than the MALLER. The f'ing Maller, which does less DPS than all combat cruisers in the game except the stabber! Yea, putting those laser skills to real* good use. So just shut the hell up about the laser issue, this is about changing ****ty missile/laser split weapon ships into decent missile ships. No how about just fixing lasers? "Laser suck so use missiles" is hardly a fix for the under lying problem.
Rossarian	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:10:00 - [607] Originally by: Siobhan Ni Glad I maxed out all my laser skills. Why not change the raven bonus while your at it... to auto cannons or something else completely random. How about just making lasers better? If I wanted a missile boat I'd fly caldari. So what would be your ilks suggestion for Khanid? Make them exact copies of their Amarr counterparts? Make them impossible to use shieldtanking laserboats? Keep them in their current crappy selves with their only redeeming factor being low price? Really if all you care about is using lasers to good effect, this changes absolutely NOTHING for you as you were not using these ships before anyway. But at least they will now be useful for people who like variety.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:13:00 - [608] You know, so many of you guys here suck. Think for a minute about how the priorities for weaponry were stacked before: Caldari: Missiles, Railguns, Electronic Warfare, Drones Minmatar: Projectiles, Missiles, Drones, Electronic Warfare Amarr: Lasers, Drones, Electronic Warfare, Missiles Gallente: Railguns, Drones, Electronic Warfare, Missiles. And now: Caldari: Missiles, Railguns, Electronic Warfare, Drones Minmatar: Projectiles, Missiles, Drones, Electronic Warfare (New) Amarr: Lasers, Missiles, Drones, Electronic Warfare Gallente: Railguns, Drones, Electronic Warfare, Missiles Does this not make perfect sense? Is this not a rather tasty "balance"?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:14:00 - [609] Originally by: Siobhan Ni No how about just fixing lasers? "Laser suck so use missiles" is hardly a fix for the under lying problem. If you would have pulled your whiney head out of the dark place it seems to be stuck in, you just MIGHT have realized that this change has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the laser problem. It is a completely separate fix dating back from before lasers even developed their current issues. This is NOT the promised Amarr oomph. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Mortuus Minmatar Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:15:00 - [610] Yes, lasers don't work...keep the prices down. ex-Occassus Republica <3
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:24:00 - [611] Originally by: Cedric Diggory Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 29/07/2007 20:17:28 You know, so many of you guys here suck. Think for a minute about how the priorities for weaponry were stacked before: Caldari: Missiles, Railguns, Electronic Warfare, Drones Minmatar: Projectiles, Missiles, Drones, Electronic Warfare Amarr: Lasers, Drones, Electronic Warfare, Missiles Gallente: Railguns, Drones, Electronic Warfare, Missiles. And now: Caldari: Missiles, Railguns, Electronic Warfare, Drones Minmatar: Projectiles, Missiles, Drones, Electronic Warfare (New) Amarr: Lasers, Drones, Missiles, Electronic Warfare Gallente: Railguns, Drones, Electronic Warfare, Missiles Does this not make perfect sense? Is this not a rather tasty "balance"? Again, stop and think. A Caldari pilot wishing to not restrict his ship choices must train Railguns and Missiles. A Minmatar pilot must train Projectiles and Missiles. A Gallente pilot must train Railguns and Drones, whereas Amarr pilots trained... Lasers. Uhh, no. An amarr pilot not wishing to suck complete balls trained lasers and drones. Because without drones, amarr ships suck balls.
Xanos Blackpaw Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:31:00 - [612] Originally by: Rossarian Originally by: Siobhan Ni Glad I maxed out all my laser skills. Why not change the raven bonus while your at it... to auto cannons or something else completely random. How about just making lasers better? If I wanted a missile boat I'd fly caldari. So what would be your ilks suggestion for Khanid? Make them exact copies of their Amarr counterparts? Make them impossible to use shieldtanking laserboats? Keep them in their current crappy selves with their only redeeming factor being low price? Really if all you care about is using lasers to good effect, this changes absolutely NOTHING for you as you were not using these ships before anyway. But at least they will now be useful for people who like variety. now that i think about it. shield tanking laser boats would be cool...problem is that they would need a silly amount of cap to keep it all running. i'm talking about 8000 cap on a cruisers here... Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:33:00 - [613] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Sheriff Jones BUT mostly i'm miffed that my training towards the interdictor just got a "boost" of atleast 10 extra days(to even dare it out the bay). arent lvl1 missile op + lvl1 rockets like 10-12 minutes? ;p Yeah, that would be like heading into a battle with t1 guns at lvl 1 skill and wondering why your dps sucks So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:33:00 - [614] Quote: Still one valid "whine" or complaint is regarding the interdictor. It is indeed. We need more interdictors. We need more destroyers too, to be honest.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:47:00 - [615] Originally by: Cedric Diggory Quote: Uhh, no. An amarr pilot not wishing to suck complete balls trained lasers and drones. Because without drones, amarr ships suck balls. You mean like the Minmatar and Caldari pilots also trained drones so they too did not suck balls? Like all those primary missile based minmatar ships? Oh wait, there are none... Now missiles are great for supplimentary DPS, but its not necessary.
Tian Jade Amarr Cataclysm Enterprises Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:49:00 - [616] I for one welcome these changes. Missiles do not need cap for firing and so I will less vulnerable against NOS-setups and also less predictable in my damage types. If CCP can perhaps make the Armageddon a bit easier to fit, then I will be really happy.
Kala Veijo Purple Cloud	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:51:00 - [617] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Sheriff Jones BUT mostly i'm miffed that my training towards the interdictor just got a "boost" of atleast 10 extra days(to even dare it out the bay). arent lvl1 missile op + lvl1 rockets like 10-12 minutes? ;p Yes, but if you dont max those skills your damage will be teh suck. Not a good thing in pvp. Warp Wind, CSM Chapter blog.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:51:00 - [618] Edited by: Goumindong on 29/07/2007 20:52:15 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Sheriff Jones BUT mostly i'm miffed that my training towards the interdictor just got a "boost" of atleast 10 extra days(to even dare it out the bay). arent lvl1 missile op + lvl1 rockets like 10-12 minutes? ;p Yeah, that would be like heading into a battle with t1 guns at lvl 1 skill and wondering why your dps sucks The Heretic had 5 launchers and 4 turrets perviously. It had no damage bonuses. So with the 2 extra launchers, and damage bonus you will do about the same DPS with those best named launchers and level 1 skill in both rockets and missile use as you would with turrets. Assuming max skills on the lasers of course. At the end of the day, once you finish training up the missiles you will end up with about a 60-90% dps improvement over your previous ideal.
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.07.29 20:56:00 - [619] Rockets 4, Missle op 4, rapid fire 3, arb launchers caldari navy rockets. You wont be doing max dammage yet, but you can certainly leave your hanger.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:02:00 - [620] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 21:03:57 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 21:03:32 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 21:03:00 Well, it's rahter pointless to argue since the counterpoint is always "It doesn't take that much time to train missiles." when my point is "I shouldn't be forced to do so when it wasn't included in my plans before/a requirement training." Don't even want to go into the "Well all can't buy this and that and best named." The facts are, i had plans, i now need to change them, and i need to train more now, while other races don't need to. Also now have to train stuff to fly the ships i flew before. Not to mention on learning how missiles work, how to use them etc etc.It's a timenerf. Also would be curious on hearing what people, like the minmatar and gallente, would feel if half their t2 ships had a complete overhaul that required training to fly properly again. Or how caldari would feel if half the t2 ships had their missiles changed to turrets. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:04:00 - [621] Originally by: Sheriff Jones BUT mostly i'm miffed that my training towards the interdictor just got a "boost" of atleast 10 extra days(to even dare it out the bay). Not to say you don't have a point, but heretic just got a major boost from this change, probabally making it better than the flycatcher. It is likely quite possible now (I need to check fitting) to put 6 rocket launcher II's (which, you may not have noted, are very cheap) and a bubble launcher on a heretic, with a MSE II, and lows full of overdrives. I already fit my heretic this way (except with lasers) and unrigged and somewhat low nav skills it easily breaks 4.5km/sec. Most flycatchers are already fitted in this fashion, however, if you use rocket launchers, it makes one of the ship bonuses useless. This means that the heretic is now faster and more effective with a rocket setup than a flycatcher, since all bonuses on the ship will actually apply to it's commonly used weapons. This leaves the eris as pretty much the undisputed steaming pile in the field of interdictors. In addition, the proposed khanid changes are to the unguided variety of weapons only. This means like minmatar with guns and the controlled bursts skill, it is unnessary to train skills like guided missile precision, which have no effect on these modules. Therefore your skill training time is lower. While it sucks if you have to start from zero, as I know, this at least helps a little bit. Oh while we're on this subject, can we get a true 4th bonus on assault frigs here - 5% armor resists per level on vengeance FTW! Raptor and Ares Fix
Zero Legion	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:05:00 - [622] If my Roden ships (says in description they like missles) switched to missles id prolly just not fly them, now if my Ishkur/Ishtar/Eos switched to missles id probably bust in my pants with joy. MIssleswpeing Droneboats = Win -------------------------------------------- We are nothing, formless and void. We are a lack of all. Alone we are powerless, together we are unstoppable. WE ARE LEGION!!!!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:06:00 - [623] Edited by: Goumindong on 29/07/2007 21:06:48 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 21:03:32 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 21:03:00 Well, it's rahter pointless to argue since the counterpoint is always "It doesn't take that much time to train missiles." when my point is "I shouldn't be forced to do so when it wasn't included in my plans before." Don't even want to go into the "Well all can't buy this and that and best named." The facts are, i had plans, i now need to change them, and i need to train more now, while other races don't need to. Also now have to train stuff to fly the ships i flew before. Not to mention on learning how missiles work, how to use them etc etc.It's a timenerf. Also would be curious on hearing what people, like the minmatar and gallente, would feel if half their t2 ships had a complete overhaul that required training to fly properly again. Or how caldari would feel if half the t2 ships had their missiles changed to turrets. Well for starters, half of the caldari ships use rails as a primary weapons platform, so ill bet they feel it already. For second. With just rockets 1 or light missiles 1 you are literally doing more DPS, in a better way, at more range than you had before.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:07:00 - [624] Originally by: Goumindong They already did. The Raven was a rail boat before they changed it. Ahh, false. Scorpion was a railboat originally. Then again, scorp has been changed in a major way, at least 3 seperate times I can recall offhand. Raptor and Ares Fix
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:08:00 - [625] Originally by: Goumindong The Heretic had 5 launchers and 4 turrets perviously. It had no damage bonuses. Again false. It had a EM damage bonus to missiles. I suggest doing some more factchecking. Raptor and Ares Fix
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:08:00 - [626] I conceed your point on time. I just have a different perspective, as I started training missles from 0 last week, I'm currently 8 hours away from rockets 5. It's not a big deal to train rockets. I guess that's where we should leave it. As you said, no point in arguing perspective.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:08:00 - [627] Originally by: Kai Lae Originally by: Goumindong They already did. The Raven was a rail boat before they changed it. Ahh, false. Scorpion was a railboat originally. Then again, scorp has been changed in a major way, at least 3 seperate times I can recall offhand. may bad, but it holds true enough. People whining about this change are being stupid. Its unqualifyingly good.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:10:00 - [628] Originally by: Kai Lae snip vengeance FTW! Yes, it has good points that make this bareble change. Not happy, but something that won't ruin my pleasure completely. Originally by: Zero Legion now if my Ishkur/Ishtar/Eos switched to missles id probably bust in my pants with joy. MIssleswpeing Droneboats = Win Bloody gallente..errm...ok, imagine you had crap lasers instead of drones an...oh forget it and go have adrink with your drone buddies Originally by: Goumindong Well for starters, half of the caldari ships use rails as a primary weapons platform, so ill bet they feel it already. For second. With just rockets 1 or light missiles 1 you are literally doing more DPS, in a better way, at more range than you had before. Rockets 1 compared to fully trained t2 pulses? Seriously? I didn't know lasers were THAT bad in damage. But even if it's true, it's still a timesink to learn a new part of the game. Timesink. Yes it has some perks to have a new thing to look at, but i was hoping i didn't have to. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:17:00 - [629] Its not quite. the pulses will do about 15% more dps when fully trained compared to rockets 1. I was exaggerating. The issue is that with 6 launchers instead of 4 turrets, and a damage bonus instead of no damage bonus the new Heretic is operating at an an effective 87.5% damage advantage. That is equal to Pulse spec 5, Rapid Fire 5, Surgical Strike 5, Energy turrets 5. The last one of the bunch to figure is gunnery 5.[then again, i didnt figure missile launcher OP 1 so that brings it down a bit] Factor in that rockets do about the same amount of DPS as pulses[when rockets are using tech 1 missiles and pulses are using conflag...] for base damage then you get about equal damage with just rockets 1 and missile op 1. Start putting on faction rockets and training past level 1 and you will easily beat the pulse DPS while doing it in a better manner due to tracking etc. Same goes for light missiles.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:19:00 - [630] Originally by: Kai Lae Originally by: Goumindong The Heretic had 5 launchers and 4 turrets perviously. It had no damage bonuses. Again false. It had a EM damage bonus to missiles. I suggest doing some more factchecking. And EM bonus to missiles is not a bonus to lasers. So i dont see how that is relevent given that the person is complaining that he has to train rockets/missiles 1 to do damage. He would have had to train rockets or missiles to decent damage anyway. This just allows him to do that without splitting weapon types.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:20:00 - [631] Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw Originally by: Rossarian Originally by: Siobhan Ni Glad I maxed out all my laser skills. Why not change the raven bonus while your at it... to auto cannons or something else completely random. How about just making lasers better? If I wanted a missile boat I'd fly caldari. So what would be your ilks suggestion for Khanid? Make them exact copies of their Amarr counterparts? Make them impossible to use shieldtanking laserboats? Keep them in their current crappy selves with their only redeeming factor being low price? Really if all you care about is using lasers to good effect, this changes absolutely NOTHING for you as you were not using these ships before anyway. But at least they will now be useful for people who like variety. now that i think about it. shield tanking laser boats would be cool...problem is that they would need a silly amount of cap to keep it all running. i'm talking about 8000 cap on a cruisers here... Shield tanks are more cap efficient than armor tanks ding dong ding the more you know
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:22:00 - [632] Originally by: Goumindong Its not quite. the pulses will do about 15% more dps when fully trained compared to rockets 1. I was exaggerating. The issue is that with 6 launchers instead of 4 turrets, and a damage bonus instead of no damage bonus the new Heretic is operating at an an effective 87.5% damage advantage. That is equal to Pulse spec 5, Rapid Fire 5, Surgical Strike 5, Energy turrets 5. If this is indeed true, and t2 pulses, with gunnery 5, pulse spec etc etc support skills is only 15% better then rockets with ONLY two level 1 skills at 1, there's a bigger problem with lasers indeed... So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:38:00 - [633] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Goumindong Its not quite. the pulses will do about 15% more dps when fully trained compared to rockets 1. I was exaggerating. The issue is that with 6 launchers instead of 4 turrets, and a damage bonus instead of no damage bonus the new Heretic is operating at an an effective 87.5% damage advantage. That is equal to Pulse spec 5, Rapid Fire 5, Surgical Strike 5, Energy turrets 5. If this is indeed true, and t2 pulses, with gunnery 5, pulse spec etc etc support skills is only 15% better then rockets with ONLY two level 1 skills at 1, there's a bigger problem with lasers indeed... Only comparing the new Khanid Heretic to the old Khanid Heretic. The old Khanid Heretic has 4 turret hardpoints and 5 launchers and an EM bonus to missile damage. So it gets 4 unbonused turrets. The new khanid heretic has 2 turrets and 6 launchers. And a damage bonus to rockets. If it had 6 turrets and a laser bonus then it wouldnt be close unless skills were very close to each other. But the person was complaining that this change was going to ruin his skill plan, when clearly it does not, since with only a modicum of more training he will have eclipsed his old DPS that he was planning on doing with pulses.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:45:00 - [634] Ah in that waya yes. Originally by: Goumindong But the person was complaining that this change was going to ruin his skill plan, when clearly it does not, since with only a modicum of more training he will have eclipsed his old DPS that he was planning on doing with pulses. Actually i was saying that this ***es on ym plan, but doesn't ruin it. It does complicate matters in more ways then just the training off skills(whihc have to be upgraded more then to level 1 ofcourse), in a way that i now have to learn how rockets/missiles work, how not to use them, what to avoid etc. It's an additinal timesink. And as such, yes, it does interfere with my plans. It's like, telling a gallente to start learning lasers instead of drones/hyrbids. It's never as simple as "train this, train that, fit these and voila!" So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.*
Fallorn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.29 21:54:00 - [635] How missiles work. Make sure your target is not moving faster than your missiles can. If it is and you can web it do so. Now your missiles have a range that is based on flight time and speed and stuff. With these conditions both in the green you press button and they go zoom zoom and then go boom boom and the target takes damage. You don't use missiles on a target out of your range. For pvp with missiles you need to make sure the target has points on it and is webbed if you can then you pound on it with missiles. As an armor tanker this should be easy because your mids will have more than likely a web a scram and the rest sensor damps so that you can make their lock range so short they can not touch you. Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 22:07:00 - [636] Originally by: Fallorn How missiles work. Make sure your target is not moving faster than your missiles can. If it is and you can web it do so. Now your missiles have a range that is based on flight time and speed and stuff. With these conditions both in the green you press button and they go zoom zoom and then go boom boom and the target takes damage. You don't use missiles on a target out of your range. For pvp with missiles you need to make sure the target has points on it and is webbed if you can then you pound on it with missiles. As an armor tanker this should be easy because your mids will have more than likely a web a scram and the rest sensor damps so that you can make their lock range so short they can not touch you. Soo...learn missile launcher V, learn missiles V, learn needed support missile skills, fit vengeance(fully t2 before) with launchers and go make bad guys go boom? So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Deva Blackfire Citadel of dark arts	Posted - 2007.07.29 22:11:00 - [637] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Soo...learn missile launcher V, learn missiles V, learn needed support missile skills, fit vengeance(fully t2 before) with launchers and go make bad guys go boom? If you want to use t2 - yes. Exactly same as with all other ships. Tho arbalest launchers are enough usually (you will use faction ammo anyways). As for learning how to fly - i hope you arent so dense that you need 5 weeks to learn how to use ship... Guess in 5-10 engagements you will have basic know-how... Then its just upping your piloting skills.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 22:13:00 - [638] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Sheriff Jones Soo...learn missile launcher V, learn missiles V, learn needed support missile skills, fit vengeance(fully t2 before) with launchers and go make bad guys go boom? If you want to use t2 - yes. Exactly same as with all other ships. Tho arbalest launchers are enough usually (you will use faction ammo anyways). As for learning how to fly - i hope you arent so dense that you need 5 weeks to learn how to use ship... Guess in 5-10 engagements you will have basic know-how... Then its just upping your piloting skills. Yeah, like i said, it's a timesink, nothing more. Main grief about it. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Fallorn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.29 22:16:00 - [639] Really the only reason for most missiles to go get tech 2 is for the launcher. Most the T2 ammo is not worth it but the increased rate of fire on the launcher and the T2 skill is. Also remember missiles are not guns if you are not training for the small ships then don't train the small missiles higher than you have to. Also you do not need all the skills to five. It will help but pvp is about having fun and knowing how to fly your ship better with a better fitting than your opponent. Mostly because many people have tons of sp but have no idea how to fit a ship or fight. Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
Lord Loom Loom Service Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.07.29 22:34:00 - [640] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Well, it's rahter pointless to argue since the counterpoint is always "It doesn't take that much time to train missiles." when my point is "I shouldn't be forced to do so when it wasn't included in my plans before/a requirement training." Don't even want to go into the "Well all can't buy this and that and best named." The facts are, i had plans, i now need to change them, and i need to train more now, while other races don't need to. Also now have to train stuff to fly the ships i flew before. Not to mention on learning how missiles work, how to use them etc etc.It's a timenerf. so basically you chose to suck and now this choice is somewhat taken away from you because you need to put in half a day of training to suck less? Quote: Also would be curious on hearing what people, like the minmatar and gallente, would feel if half their t2 ships had a complete overhaul that required training to fly properly again. Or how caldari would feel if half the t2 ships had their missiles changed to turrets. other races already have their different ship lines, FFS, adapt or STFU - if you can't see that there's something wrong with a crappy lineup of crappy ships just in order to provide you with a shorter skill plan, I can't help you. Amarrians' biggest issue is their lack of versatility, OMGNOES they add versatility but it's ZE MISSILES, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!1!one ---------- KEEP TRY!!!
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 22:42:00 - [641] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 22:42:48 Originally by: Lord Loom so basically you chose to suck and now this choice is somewhat taken away from you because you need to put in half a day of training to suck less? other races already have their different ship lines, FFS, adapt or STFU - if you can't see that there's something wrong with a crappy lineup of crappy ships just in order to provide you with a shorter skill plan, I can't help you. Amarrians' biggest issue is their lack of versatility, OMGNOES they add versatility but it's ZE MISSILES, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!1!one Well, you need to calm down and learn how to discuss. You missed all the points, don't read on threads fully before answering and think insulting others is a "good way to go". I have nothing to say to people like that. Adapt and give your arguments in a non caps lock, calm manner and i'll be glad to discuss them. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Yarlan Zey	Posted - 2007.07.29 23:09:00 - [642] Face it.. you caldarian pilots just received few nice brand new missle boats. I have over 10mills in gunnery. and I`ll never train missles. (like prolly 80% of all amarrians) Honestly I really prefer to train gallente ships instead of these missle thingies. Actualy its true most of these T2 khanid ships were useless stuff with mixed guns systems.. but taking away my precious sacrilege..I`ll never forgive CCP. I prefer Khanid ships to stay useless.. and no one will use them. Neither we nor others. Now we still will not use these ships, but the caldarian and minnie pilots will use them. So more ships for the others and less for us. I don`t like it. really
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.29 23:38:00 - [643] Well, its is CALDARI and amarr tech, would be odd if caldari pilots did not get any use out of them? most pilots i know have cross trained a bit, and its not hard getting tech 2 missiles, heck, faction is even better,... It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Lord Loom Loom Service Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.07.29 23:52:00 - [644] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 22:42:48 Originally by: Lord Loom so basically you chose to suck and now this choice is somewhat taken away from you because you need to put in half a day of training to suck less? other races already have their different ship lines, FFS, adapt or STFU - if you can't see that there's something wrong with a crappy lineup of crappy ships just in order to provide you with a shorter skill plan, I can't help you. Amarrians' biggest issue is their lack of versatility, OMGNOES they add versatility but it's ZE MISSILES, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!1!one Well, you need to calm down and learn how to discuss. You missed all the points, don't read on threads fully before answering and think insulting others is a "good way to go". I have nothing to say to people like that. Adapt and give your arguments in a non caps lock, calm manner and i'll be glad to discuss them. lol, just... lol - "you don't agree with me and you hurt my feelings so I don't talk to you LALALALALA"... it seems to me you are missing the point - it doesn't matter if it goes against your skill plan, it doesn't matter if you were happy with lasers only - what does matter is that there were huge issues with Khanid ships which were addressed, but you and others rather keep the crappy laserboats than having to train missiles you're not forced to train missiles, just stick to the Amarr ships not built by Khanid Innovations. If you want to keep flying those ships, you'll need missile skills now, tho - big deal, as shown above. Other races need to train other stuff just as much, except it doesn't (or, so far, didn't) come as an overhaul of a gimped line of T2 ships (Gallente "missile spammers" would be next I guess...). your interdictor will suck less and if you flew a Heretic without missile skills I pity you, seriously - so here, take a cookie and learn to adapt, MMOs change, stuff gets balanced, and in this case this comes with a slight change of playstyle on, oh, a whopping 5 ships. But no, we rather whine that they're "taking away" your crappy split-weapon black "laserboats" and that you have to train something you don't want to. Guess what, I didn't want to train electronics upgrades 5 either, but I had to if I wanted to fly covops. I don't want to train Jump Drive Operation to 5 asap but I have to, in order to get Jump Drive Calibration. See where I'm going? And BTW, in case you lack reading comprehension, the caps lock and non-calm way was basically quoting the reaction of people up in arms because they think it's an outrage that there will be armor tanking close range missile spammers, not my own opinion. But internet spaceships are serious business, so I understand you missed that... ---------- KEEP TRY!!!
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 23:54:00 - [645] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 23:59:06 Lord Loom, i was merely pointing out that you should try to give your points(as you did now, partly) without resorting to insults and calling other people names. Personally, the miffage came from this landing right in the middle of my plans. It would anger you too. That being said... I'll try to put this to rest with a little factlist: New khanid ships are better then the old ones. Some of the khanids will be "awesome" given that one has needed skills to make one...one. New khanid ships could've been better in another way for it to be less of a "whine" issue. But as such, this is a "ok" change. Some changes are rather drastic to old dogs who now need to learn new tricks(the damnation pilots for one) This does require additional training to fly ships(efficiently) we used to fly, which is a "nerf" to amarr in a timesink sort of fashion. It's not a huge timesink, but one none the less. We desperately need an interdictor that is pure amarr/laser based.(but amarr need a buckload of other stuff too, but that's off the point). Atleast those are the main things that can be agreed on. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.30 00:11:00 - [646] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 21:47:44 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 21:47:05 Ah in that way yes, still a bit curious though. ah well. Originally by: Goumindong But the person was complaining that this change was going to ruin his skill plan, when clearly it does not, since with only a modicum of more training he will have eclipsed his old DPS that he was planning on doing with pulses. Actually i was saying that this ****es on my plan, but doesn't ruin it. It does complicate matters in more ways then just the training off skills(which have to be upgraded more then to level 1 ofcourse), in a way that i now have to learn how rockets/missiles work, how not to use them, what to avoid etc. Also i DO need the additional missile support skills, 'cause without them i'd just be gimping myself. It's an additinal timesink. And as such, yes, it does interfere with my plans. It's like, telling a gallente to start learning lasers instead of drones/hyrbids. It's never as simple as "train this, train that, fit these and voila!" Look, its literally a half an hour of time sink. Do i think that anyone would complain if say the Typhoon all of a sudden got 6 launchers and 2 turrets? No. Since you cant really use the thing well with just autocannons anyway[such the autocannon users were using the tempest], and since the ship becomes immeasurably better with 6 launchers i dont think anyone would complain. That is exactly what is happening here. Your protests are stupid and pointless. It does not interfere with any plans you could have had. Because you could not have had plans for a pulse Heretic that didnt suck balls. The heretic is trained for as a destroy because, and only because, its cheap. And its Cheap because it sucks. The thing was already immeasurably better with missiles before the change and now its even better with them, your protests are akin to complaining that the raven is getting more launchers and less turrets or that the rupture is getting more turrets and less launchers
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 00:38:00 - [647] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 30/07/2007 00:39:05 Originally by: Goumindong Look, its literally a half an hour of time sink. Well, yes, if i wanted to fit the interdictor with t1 rockets/missiles. Then it would be. But, there's other issues with it. I need to train more missile skills then just basic 1's to be effective. Same so my vengeance is effective again. also additional timesink comes from learning "how things work". Which is a minor evil. It's not a huge timesink(like i said), but it is more then just "one or two minor skills to 1". I'm not syaing this doesn't have good points, or saying "No boo it's all bad", so please try not to read my negative comments on this as pure hatred towards everything and their mother. It has good points, but also bad. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.30 01:21:00 - [648] Edited by: Goumindong on 30/07/2007 01:22:13 Edited by: Goumindong on 30/07/2007 01:21:34 No. You dont. You are as good in the heretic with level 1 in the missiles as you are with your lasers. Your vengeance was never effective with lasers. Never. You are losing nothing.
Fallorn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.30 01:31:00 - [649] You are getting some really, really good ships that you need minimal skills to be effective with. You can get even more to be good with it but they require no where near as much sp to be effective as guns and if you had used them before you would know it. Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
Mo adib	Posted - 2007.07.30 05:13:00 - [650] damnation is now worth training amarr cruiser 5 on my command ship pilot
MirrorGod Heretic Army	Posted - 2007.07.30 05:37:00 - [651] Decent, decent. Malediction still has the damned EM damage bonus...what, in case I want to go ratting Bloods with it? =/ Other than that, I like. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Timmeh ([email protected])
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.07.30 05:49:00 - [652] Originally by: MirrorGod Decent, decent. Malediction still has the damned EM damage bonus...what, in case I want to go ratting Bloods with it? =/ Other than that, I like. and a 25% to all rockets dmg bonus. We do more dammage than a crow with explosive rockets.
Xnight	Posted - 2007.07.30 05:55:00 - [653] Edited by: Xnight on 30/07/2007 05:56:20 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 23:59:06 Lord Loom, i was merely pointing out that you should try to give your points(as you did now, partly) without resorting to insults and calling other people names. Personally, the miffage came from this landing right in the middle of my plans. It would anger you too. That being said... I'll try to put this to rest with a little factlist: New khanid ships are better then the old ones. Some of the khanids will be "awesome" given that one has needed skills to make one...one. New khanid ships could've been better in another way for it to be less of a "whine" issue. But as such, this is a "ok" change. Some changes are rather drastic to old dogs who now need to learn new tricks(the damnation pilots for one) This does require additional training to fly ships(efficiently) we used to fly, which is a "nerf" to amarr in a timesink sort of fashion. It's not a huge timesink, but one none the less. We desperately need an interdictor that is pure amarr/laser based.(but amarr need a buckload of other stuff too, but that's off the point). Atleast those are the main things that can be agreed on. I sorta agree on the Damnation bit, but no one really used the damnation for its OMG 4 turrets, but as for every other ship..... no one used em cept the Heretic since it was the cheapest dictor. I smell some tweaking coming up but overall its nice. As for people whinin on having to train another weapon system... If you were going to stick with amarr what were you going to train after you're done with lasers? I don't think the point of being amarr was that ALL your ships had to be fit using the same rather limited use weapons. Edit: you could train projectiles, but the changes doesn't affect this in fact it would make the AC apoc a quite impressive ship.
Axel Drayus Minmatar	Posted - 2007.07.30 06:06:00 - [654] Edited by: Axel Drayus on 30/07/2007 06:13:42 Edited by: Axel Drayus on 30/07/2007 06:11:00 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Like i said earlier, now i NEED to train the 15-20 days worth(i think) missiles skills before i can fit it to any battle ready state. Stop your whining and spend 20 days training your missiles up. Every other race has to train additional weapon systems so why can't you? 20 days training isn't that long tbfh!
Cpt Lain Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.07.30 06:09:00 - [655] Seeing the proposed changes... ...makes me REALLY happy I decided to train Caldari and Amarr on this character (armor tank skills PLUS missile skills? perfect). Excellent work CCP, now just don't screw it up entirely before the changes hit Tranq.
FireMox	Posted - 2007.07.30 07:40:00 - [656] Originally by: Dristra Well, its is CALDARI and amarr tech, would be odd if caldari pilots did not get any use out of them? most pilots i know have cross trained a bit, and its not hard getting tech 2 missiles, heck, faction is even better,... ****************** well if caldarian pilots can use our ships without so much training why we can`t do the same ? "CALDARI and amarr tech" ??! why we have such a mix but not caldary ? I want to fly shield taked laser boats. There is no other race that can use lasers. Caldarians can use easy minnie ..amarr and their own ships with just missle training. so much choise. our choise it decreaced even more. From my point of view lasers at their current state are so unpopular and the time when they`ll dissappear like weapon is more than close.
Tamoko Damage Unlimited Inc	Posted - 2007.07.30 08:04:00 - [657] Originally by: FireMox I want to fly shield taked laser boats. lolz... QFT Khanid Mk-II: http://i13.tinypic.com/688zvjk.jpg http://i11.tinypic.com/5ycekb8.jpg
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.30 08:47:00 - [658] I approve of the changes for the most part. My one concern is that the Malediction's damage bonus is EM only. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Tamoko Damage Unlimited Inc	Posted - 2007.07.30 08:49:00 - [659] Originally by: Rodj Blake I approve of the changes for the most part. My one concern is that the Malediction's damage bonus is EM only. To be fair, that's probably for the best, though I hope to god it doesn't happen. Goodbye solo ganking small, plated ships. Khanid Mk-II: http://i13.tinypic.com/688zvjk.jpg http://i11.tinypic.com/5ycekb8.jpg
MasterDecoy Gallente The Grifters	Posted - 2007.07.30 09:00:00 - [660] great! nothing wrong with variety so, when are you gonna fix the gallente missile boats now? (ares/enyo ect) Originally by: Gan Dalf What's going on? Why is TQ down? Who is "GMT"? What's 'Reality', will it hurt?
Aluka 7th Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.30 09:12:00 - [661] This is old -> new stat comparison using current data from sisi: Malediction Layout change 2 missile + 3 turret -> 3 missile + 1 turret CPU 125tf -> 135tf Max. targeting range 22km -> 18km Targ. resolution 900mm -> 925mm Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to rocket damage and 5% bonus to armor resistances per level Sacrilege Layout change 3 missile + 4 turret -> 5 missile CPU 350tf -> 400tf Power 1100MW -> 1030MW Max. targeting range 60km -> 50km Targ. resolution 235mm -> 260mm Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile damage and (OLD BONUS 5% bonus to all armor resistances) per level Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 5% reduction of capacitor recharge time and 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level Anathema Layout change 1 missile + 2 turret -> 2 missile + 1 turret Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to rocket damage and 5% reduction of capacitor recharge time per level Vengeance LAyout change 1 missile + 3 turret -> 4 missile + 1 turret CPU 150tf -> 160tf Power 48MW -> 43MW Max. targeting range 45km -> 38km Targ. resolution 600mm -> 655mm Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to rocket damage, (OLD BONUSES 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Explosive resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic resistance) per level Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to armor resistances and ( OLD BONUS 5% bonus to cap recharge rate) per level Damnation Layout change 4 missile + 4 turret -> 5 missile + 2 turret Power 1510MW -> 1300MW Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile damage and (OLD BONUS 5% bonus to all armor resistances) per level Command Ships Skill Bonus: 5% reduction of capacitor recharge time and (OLD BONUS 3% bonus to effectiveness of Armored Warfare Links) per level
Deva Blackfire Citadel of dark arts	Posted - 2007.07.30 09:37:00 - [662] Originally by: MasterDecoy great! nothing wrong with variety so, when are you gonna fix the gallente missile boats now? (ares/enyo ect) 2 years after Sarmaul writes "ares/enyo MK2"? ;p
Sazkyen	Posted - 2007.07.30 09:38:00 - [663] I personally find the changes fascinating. If it turns out to be true I'll start learning Amarr skills.
Fred 104 New Justice	Posted - 2007.07.30 10:03:00 - [664] Wow... the sac got crazy sexual powers.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.30 10:11:00 - [665] Originally by: Tamoko Originally by: Rodj Blake I approve of the changes for the most part. My one concern is that the Malediction's damage bonus is EM only. To be fair, that's probably for the best, though I hope to god it doesn't happen. Goodbye solo ganking small, plated ships. The thing is that limiting a ship to either one missile type or one damage type is fair enough. But limiting a ship to one missile type and one damage type may be taking things a little bit too far. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.30 10:23:00 - [666] Originally by: Goumindong Shield tanks are more cap efficient than armor tanks ding dong ding the more you know With perfect skills and ridiculously hard to fit T2 midslod mods, shields are a bit better. Ships fitting such a tank will also be immobile/useless in solo/small gang and/or have mediocre resists. Tank cap efficiency only matters in solo/small gang pvp as when you get into medium gangs you don't get in enough rep cycles for cap to matter once you're primaried. As a result, generally shield tanks only have cap superiority in high-sec mission setups, and then only on setups that have made significant fitting compromises. _____ CPU Love
Royaldo Gallente KVA Noble Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.30 10:34:00 - [667] i like these changes. my alt now has a few missile skills to train. thats ok. it took over 2 years since i made a thread about medium beams fitting issue till they were fixed. someone quick make a thread about mega beams/tachyon fitting issue. and the apoc.
Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.30 11:35:00 - [668] Small remark about people complaining about the introduction of missiles in the amarrian line. with the exception of the arbitrator and its t2 variations, all ships used the same variation of the good old laser+armor tank build. This ends up with many ships having similar t2 variations where one is considered inferior to the other, battleships all built around the same theme, with the apoc made redundant and useless. You can only go so far with lasers+armor tank and sooner or later, you need to develop another line of ships to create variety. Caldari have the rail tree and the missile tree+a few nifty ECM ships Gallente have their droneships and blasterships lines that help differentiate T2 and create flavour in T1 Minmatar need drones, missiles, speed, armor, shield and projectiles so meh! Amarr tend to all look the same to me anyway ... Originally by: Radeberger If you plan to make your alliance combat based, recruit pvpers with mining alts rather than miners with pvp alts[/qu
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.30 11:40:00 - [669] Originally by: Vathar with the exception of the arbitrator and its t2 variations, all ships used the same variation of the good old laser+armor tank build. You forgot the Inquisitor... Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.30 11:41:00 - [670] Edited by: Aramendel on 30/07/2007 11:42:06 Originally by: Santa Anna With perfect skills and ridiculously hard to fit T2 midslod mods, shields are a bit better. Turnover point is with lvl 3 shield compensation and a t1 SBA, so no. Quote: Tank cap efficiency only matters in solo/small gang pvp as when you get into medium gangs you don't get in enough rep cycles for cap to matter once you're primaried. True. However shield tanks have the advantage there, too, since they have (be it single rep/booster or double rep/single booster + SBA) a higher HP/sec regeneration rate.
Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:06:00 - [671] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Vathar with the exception of the arbitrator and its t2 variations, all ships used the same variation of the good old laser+armor tank build. You forgot the Inquisitor... so does everyone else if I'm not mistaken ;) Originally by: Radeberger If you plan to make your alliance combat based, recruit pvpers with mining alts rather than miners with pvp alts[/qu
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:24:00 - [672] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 30/07/2007 11:42:06 Originally by: Santa Anna With perfect skills and ridiculously hard to fit T2 midslod mods, shields are a bit better. Turnover point is with lvl 3 shield compensation and a t1 SBA, so no. Quote: Tank cap efficiency only matters in solo/small gang pvp as when you get into medium gangs you don't get in enough rep cycles for cap to matter once you're primaried. True. However shield tanks have the advantage there, too, since they have (be it single rep/booster or double rep/single booster + SBA) a higher HP/sec regeneration rate. The problem with shield tanks is that they REQUIRE a boost amp to hit any kind of efficiency. Mid slots are precious, and this means you need to set aside two slots from the start for boosting, let alone buffing your resists. On the other hand, there are a LOT of viable armor setups on a LOT of ships that run only one repper.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:26:00 - [673] Edited by: Shadowsword on 30/07/2007 12:27:51 Overall I like the changes on the test server, there is only one thing that bother me: Why do we get only half-bonuses? There's always been a correspondance about the relative value of bonuses. We know that 10% optimal has about the same value than 5% damage, or 5% resists, or 5% Rof, or 7.5% tracking, or 7.5% repair amount, and so on. Why are the Khanid ship bonuses applying only to short range missiles? Missiles that, as it just happen, aren't modified by the explosion radius and velocity skills? For background? I don't see CCP removing caldari bonuses to torps and heavy assault missiles because they're supposed to be the race that keep their distances, or putting blasters-only bonuses for Gallente. So, why only half-bonuses? ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:29:00 - [674] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 30/07/2007 12:27:51 Overall I like the changes on the test server, there is only one thing that bother me: Why do we get only half-bonuses? There's always been a correspondance about the relative value of bonuses. We know that 10% optimal has about the same value than 5% damage, or 5% resists, or 5% Rof, or 7.5% tracking, or 7.5% repair amount, and so on. Why are the Khanid ship bonuses applying only to short range missiles? Missiles that, as it just happen, aren't modified by the explosion radius and velocity skills? For background? I don't see CCP removing caldari bonuses to torps and heavy assault missiles because they're supposed to be the race that keep their distances, or putting blasters-only bonuses for Gallente. So, why only half-bonuses? HAMs aren't affected by Missile Projection?! Ok, that sucks balls.
Deva Blackfire Citadel of dark arts	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:57:00 - [675] velocity and flight time skills apply to HAMs only explo velocity and explo radius dont (so called "precission" skills)
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.30 12:58:00 - [676] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 30/07/2007 12:27:51 Overall I like the changes on the test server, there is only one thing that bother me: Why do we get only half-bonuses? There's always been a correspondance about the relative value of bonuses. We know that 10% optimal has about the same value than 5% damage, or 5% resists, or 5% Rof, or 7.5% tracking, or 7.5% repair amount, and so on. Why are the Khanid ship bonuses applying only to short range missiles? Missiles that, as it just happen, aren't modified by the explosion radius and velocity skills? For background? I don't see CCP removing caldari bonuses to torps and heavy assault missiles because they're supposed to be the race that keep their distances, or putting blasters-only bonuses for Gallente. So, why only half-bonuses? Firstly, as far as I know the only missile skill which does not affect short range missiles is Guided Missile Precision. Secondly, if it's a toss-up between having a damage bonus to short-range missiles and a damage bonus to EM only, I'll take the former any day of the week. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.30 13:03:00 - [677] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 30/07/2007 12:27:51 Overall I like the changes on the test server, there is only one thing that bother me: Why do we get only half-bonuses? There's always been a correspondance about the relative value of bonuses. We know that 10% optimal has about the same value than 5% damage, or 5% resists, or 5% Rof, or 7.5% tracking, or 7.5% repair amount, and so on. Why are the Khanid ship bonuses applying only to short range missiles? Missiles that, as it just happen, aren't modified by the explosion radius and velocity skills? For background? I don't see CCP removing caldari bonuses to torps and heavy assault missiles because they're supposed to be the race that keep their distances, or putting blasters-only bonuses for Gallente. So, why only half-bonuses? HAMs aren't affected by Missile Projection?! Ok, that sucks balls. They are by the missile projection skill, but they aren't taking any benefit from the missile explosion velocity skill. Basically that means that if you have to fight an interceptor, opening the window to spit at it will prove just as effective than your missiles... And the philosophy behind the new Khanid change doesn't apply well to the Damnation. That is a FLEET COMMAND SHIP, damnit, not a kamikaze Deimos! You have no business closing at near point blank range, inside bubbles and within disruptor range! You business is to keep up with the Fleet, using your command modules and your reduced weaponry to harass and weaken the tacklers that go near your fleet. For that purpose, the ability to use 4 beams with an optimal bonus was perfect! ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Aluka 7th Amarr	Posted - 2007.07.30 13:20:00 - [678] BTW change important 4 assault ship lovers: Sacrilege 175m/s->205m/s Vengeance 230m/s->235m/s Don't know how I didn't notice that :)
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 13:28:00 - [679] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 30/07/2007 13:33:28 Couple of things: Yes, to USE missiles, you will need only "minimal" skills, but that would be kinda like saying you only need minimal skills in anything. Tell calradi that 5 of their missile boats will from this day forth use lasers ONLY and then tell them "Oh but you only need lazorz 1 skill". See what i mean? If you want to be any GOOD<---read) at those ships, you need skills. It's not the missile skills itself, but the missile-support skills also. And you know noone will take a pilot with launcher op 1 and rockets 1 seriously, you need to train them just because they are there. And you hear: "Oh 1 day ain't so long...2 days aint so long...a week more ain't so long..." See where i'm going? Timesink. It's not just what you need to use a ship, but what you need to actually use it efficiently. Vengeance had it uses to me, now it won't until i get my missile skills. It's not ALL about what the cookiecutting superelite flyers use in their PVP. No...it's not. NO! Also, amarr used to have to train drones and lasers atleast, what other races like minmatar need to train? Or caldari? To use their ships that is. Main weapon+ drones? I think if, in this "branch" thing, anyone needs nerfing, it's the dronelovers over there. ALSO!! One of the main things here is, this will happen: MK II hits the market. Caldari notice how good the MK II are compared to their missile boats. WHINE WHINE WHINE!! "Let's nerf the MK II the Amarr used a couple of weeks to train for. We wouldn't want our caldari missile people be angry." Just you wait. If you odn't believe me, look at a couple of pages on how "amazing" the new ships are and how caldari are planning on using them. Also a funny comment by my bro, "Well, since they're fcking up those, start flying caldari. The flycatcher has 7 turrets Actually sounded sadly good. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.*
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.30 13:30:00 - [680] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 30/07/2007 11:42:06 Originally by: Santa Anna With perfect skills and ridiculously hard to fit T2 midslod mods, shields are a bit better. Turnover point is with lvl 3 shield compensation and a t1 SBA, so no. While true, that's not responsive to my point, which is also true. You also won't find a lot of effective setups with 50 cpu to spare for an amp. T1 Amps with more reasonable fitting requirements can cost 20M isk. (Granted, this is in part because of the prevalence of shield tanking in PVE). Quote: Quote: Tank cap efficiency only matters in solo/small gang pvp as when you get into medium gangs you don't get in enough rep cycles for cap to matter once you're primaried. True. However shield tanks have the advantage there, too, since they have (be it single rep/booster or double rep/single booster + SBA) a higher HP/sec regeneration rate. Shield tanks also rep at the beginning of a cycle and can rep while taking shield, armor, and structure damage. Armor tanks only rep in armor and structure and rep at the end of their cycles. While in long fights this won't matter, in short fights where you last a fractional number of rep cycles (say 2.5 or 3.5 or whatever) it can make a (small) difference. That difference is more than covered by the dominance of armor plates over extenders in such situations, though. Of course in order to boost with shields for an extended period you need a huge amount of cap (even if you're slightly more cap efficient) which means a cap booster (another mid slot mod). When you're being nossed, you can still dual rep with armor and an injector but you should only get one shield boost per 800 injection. You could switch to 400's, but then you loose the HP/S advantage. Meanwhile, you have mwd, shield boost, cap boost, boost amp leaving you either mediocre resists (2x invuln) without web or point or terrible resists with web, point, or both. The shield tanks worth using in PVP don't boost (drake, Vaga) and/or don't need multiple resistance mods (sleipnir, to a lesser extent cerb). Anything else worth shield tanking in PVE is better off ewar and/or armor-tanking or sniping in PVP. There are a dozen or so reasons for this, amongst them: -your tank protects your ship while ewar protects every ship in your squad -tackle-capable ships (mwd/web/scram) allow a small gang to engage more targets and are a requirement for solo pvp. -plates provide a much larger buffer than extenders -speed/ewar allows you/your gang to disengage from an unfavorable engagement/trap -cap injector is best counter to nos on a non-droneboat and everyone fits nos -cap efficiency in marginal pvp engagements is only useful with injector (otherwise you cap out nos or not) -armor has better base resists -damage (the trade-off for armor tanking) is less important than ewar (the trade-off for shield tanking) in small gangs with competent FC's. ----------- Back to the topic at hand, though. The new Sacrilege looks incredible. Not sure about the fittings, but it looks like it should handle mwd, injected dual-rep tank and 1-2x damage mods. That's a dream solo pvp missile boat, to the extent that there can be such a thing. ---------- Back off topic: CCP please fix the forums. You need new Planck bubble stabilizers! _____ CPU Love
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.30 13:42:00 - [681] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 30/07/2007 13:30:10 Couple of things: Yes, to USE missiles, you will need only "minimal" skills, but that would be kinda like saying you only need minimal skills in anything. Tell calradi that 5 of their missile boats will from this day forth use lasers ONLY and then tell them "Oh but you only need lazorz 1 skill". See what i mean? If you want to be any GOOD<---read) at those ships, you need skills. It's not the missile skills itself, but the missile-support skills also. And you know noone will take a pilot with launcher op 1 and rockets 1 seriously, you need to train them just because they are there. And you hear: "Oh 1 day ain't so long...2 days aint so long...a week more ain't so long..." See where i'm going? Timesink. It's not just what you need to use a ship, but what you need to actually use it efficiently. Vengeance had it uses to me, now it won't until i get my missile skills. It's not ALL about what the cookiecutting superelite flyers use in their PVP. No...it's not. NO! Also, amarr used to have to train drones and lasers atleast, what other races like minmatar need to train? Or caldari? To use their ships that is. Main weapon+ drones? I think if, in this "branch" thing, anyone needs nerfing, it's the dronelovers over there. The head start you have in using these ships (armor tanking, Amarr ship skills) is much, much larger than the head start Caldari players have in relevant missile skills. Will some Caldari players cross-train? Probably. I'll probably learn to fly the Sac at some point because I already like the Zealot and the Curse, Pilgrim, and Guardian are sweet ships. Then again I have like 200k sp in missiles and fly more Minmatar or Gallente ships than Caldari ships, so I may be a bad Caldari. You'll also notice that skills in missiles and guns don't reward the same way. I can solo any lvl 4 in a raven with 200k or so missile skills. I couldn't even fit BS-sized guns with 200k sp in gunnery. _____ CPU Love
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 13:55:00 - [682] Originally by: Santa Anna The head start you have in using these ships (armor tanking, Amarr ship skills) is much, much larger than the head start Caldari players have in relevant missile skills. snip00k sp in gunnery. Well, it would be quite the ******* joke if amarr didn't have a head start in amarr ships.(no they are not yours too caldari, you got your own ships! ) Also, if you only need that much missile skills as people say to be as effective as laser pilots(and i think it's true after reading a few thingS), the Amarr really are the "bend over here comes the nerftrain" race. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Great Artista Caldari Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 13:57:00 - [683] Originally by: Sheriff Jones stuffe Yeah, caldari are bound to whine. Log in btw, we need moar peeps atm!! _______ GA out.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:06:00 - [684] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Santa Anna The head start you have in using these ships (armor tanking, Amarr ship skills) is much, much larger than the head start Caldari players have in relevant missile skills. snip00k sp in gunnery. Well, it would be quite the ******* joke if amarr didn't have a head start in amarr ships.(no they are not yours too caldari, you got your own ships! ) Also, if you only need that much missile skills as people say to be as effective as laser pilots(and i think it's true after reading a few thingS), the Amarr really are the "bend over here comes the nerftrain" race. If you have 0 SP in missiles, it'll take around two weeks for you to be very well-skilled in rockets and another two weeks to be equally well-skilled in HAMs. (at least using my attributes, which suck for weapons and ships). If I could get into the Khanid Mk II Sac in 4 weeks, I'd do it without flinching. _____ CPU Love
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:12:00 - [685] Originally by: Santa Anna The head start you have in using these ships (armor tanking, Amarr ship skills) is much, much larger than the head start Caldari players have in relevant missile skills. Will some Caldari players cross-train? Probably. I'll probably learn to fly the Sac at some point because I already like the Zealot and the Curse, Pilgrim, and Guardian are sweet ships. Then again I have like 200k sp in missiles and fly more Minmatar or Gallente ships than Caldari ships, so I may be a bad Caldari. You'll also notice that skills in missiles and guns don't reward the same way. I can solo any lvl 4 in a raven with 200k or so missile skills. I couldn't even fit BS-sized guns with 200k sp in gunnery. Are you kidding? Effective armor tanking requires two V skills (Mechanic, Hull Upgrades) and one IV skill (Repair Systems) Two of these are Rank 1 and one is Rank 2. Having the compensation skills helps but almost nobody takes them to V anyway, hell the difference between III in all of them and V in all of them is tiny. To fly these Amarr HACs well starting with Caldari skills, you need to train Amarr Cruiser V, Hull Upgrades V, Mechanic V, and Repair Systems IV. Training all the relevant missile skills up to high level will take significantly longer than this. Also, many Caldari also have points in Hull Upgrades/Mechanic because extra armor and hull HP is never bad.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 14:33:00 - [686] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 30/07/2007 14:34:04 Originally by: Great Artista Log in btw, we need moar peeps atm!! Can't, social thing. I'll see if i can squeeze in some battletime later. Originally by: Santa Anna If you have 0 SP in missiles, it'll take around two weeks for you to be very well-skilled in rockets and another two weeks to be equally well-skilled in HAMs. (at least using my attributes, which suck for weapons and ships). If I could get into the Khanid Mk II Sac in 4 weeks, I'd do it without flinching. Finally someone admits that it's not just 30 mins of training. This is the timesink i'm talking about. It's never just "train this to this and you can use stuff", you have to, if you don't want to be a gimped competant, train all the skills you can in a "reasonable" amount of time to certain level. Now it's a must, especially for some ships. Which is kinda silly. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:01:00 - [687] Originally by: Xequecal Are you kidding? Effective armor tanking requires two V skills (Mechanic, Hull Upgrades) and one IV skill (Repair Systems) Two of these are Rank 1 and one is Rank 2. Having the compensation skills helps but almost nobody takes them to V anyway, hell the difference between III in all of them and V in all of them is tiny. Effective Armor tanking requires (Non-cross-trained Caldari char in parens): Mechanic V (V - assault ships req) 0 days training Hull Upgrades V (III) 8-10 days training Repair Systems V (III) 4-5 days training Armor Comp Skills IV (0) x 4 7-8 days training So a Caldari character who hasn't already cross-trained armor tanking needs between 19 and 23 days to tank armor effectively, assuming decent attributes and implants. I may have a different idea of effectiveness than you do, of course. Quote: To fly these Amarr HACs well starting with Caldari skills, you need to train Amarr Cruiser V, Hull Upgrades V, Mechanic V, and Repair Systems IV. Training all the relevant missile skills up to high level will take significantly longer than this. 19-23 days for tanking 2 days for Amarr Frig 4 25-28 days for amarr cruiser 5 --- 45-53 days for Amarr HACs with tank. Relevant Missile Skills Missile Op (Rk 1) Rockets (Rk 1) HAMS (Rk 3) (These 3 skills precisely cancel Amarr Cruiser from 0 to 5. Yay for easy math.) Rocket Spec to IV (Rk 3) ~3 days HAM Spec to IV (Rk 5) ~5 days Bombardment to IV (Rk 2) ~2 days Rapid Launch to IV (Rk 2) ~2 days Projection to IV (Rk 4) ~4 days WHead Upgrades to IV (Rk 5) ~5 days From scratch, to get almost perfect in the relevant Rocket, HAM, and support skills it would require 18-21 days plus the training time of Amarr Cruiser V. You skipped Amarr Frigate V (for the frigs and dictor), though, and I didn't skip rockets. You also assumed that Caldari pilots are fully skilled in HAMs/Rockets which (for the most part) they aren't. HAMs are nearly useless on most caldari missile boats because of fitting, speed, and agility. Some pilots fly rocket Crows or Hawks, but most prefer standard missiles. To get these skills, your average Caldari pilot would need to spend a couple weeks on missile skills as Heavies, Torps, and Cruise are currently the missiles of choice. So, net, an Amarr pilot who got to HACs without ever using missiles would have a couple weeks or so head start on an average Caldari pilot in the "race" to get nearly perfect rocket/HAM skills in a Sac. If the Amarr pilot was willing to use best named launchers (not nearly as big a downgrade as with guns), he'd be looking at a week or so of training time for a pretty good (or at least undockable) setup. Quote: Also, many Caldari also have points in Hull Upgrades/Mechanic because extra armor and hull HP is never bad. Caldari pilots have Hull Upgrades II or III, but not because of the extra HP. You need Hull Upgrades to fit expanders, overdrives, damage controls, etc. I left Mechanic out of it as you'd need it for HACs regardless. _____ CPU Love
THEGREAT LOBO Infestation.	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:14:00 - [688] wow... if this is what you get done to amarr. stay away from Minimatar ships.. they are fine as they are, and we deff don't need missiles!
K'Vigor Amarr Infestation.	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:23:00 - [689] I think this idea sucks.Maybe lower laser fitting cost and release some different crystals with different damage types, also stop making amarr suck more than they already do. FFS I should picked Gallente when I first started, life would of been so much easier.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:28:00 - [690] Originally by: K'Vigor I think this idea sucks.Maybe lower laser fitting cost and release some different crystals with different damage types, also stop making amarr suck more than they already do. I'd assume they're working on the other Amarr ships as well. Different damage types will likely never happen, though, as the only guns with more than 2 available damage types are Minmatar. Quote: FFS I should picked Gallente when I first started, life would of been so much easier. It's never too late to choose Gallente. _____ CPU Love
Borasao	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:47:00 - [691] Edited by: Borasao on 30/07/2007 15:47:41 Edited by: Borasao on 30/07/2007 15:47:16 Originally by: K'Vigor Edited by: K''Vigor on 30/07/2007 15:31:14 Edited by: K''Vigor on 30/07/2007 15:31:00 I think this idea sucks.Maybe lower laser fitting cost and release some different crystals with different damage types, also stop making amarr suck more than they already do. FFS I should picked Gallente when I first started, life would of been so much easier. First, you realize that this is the Khanid ship unsuckification and not the general Amarr boost. Next, you My only gripe about these changes is that I didn't see them soon enough so I could stock up on a few more Sacrileges. The prices have already skyrocketed on speculation. I did manage to pick up another Damnation from someone who hadn't jacked their price yet. I also was able to pick up a few Vengences but there were no Maledictions to be found :( I think the changes are awesome, even though I know they'll probably be nerfed somewhat. The damage bonuses will probably go to EM damage rockets/HAM only... although since they are so short ranged, it should be as it is now, IMO. One thing, too, is that the cap regen bonus is there to kind of make up for having to have an MWD on all those ships in order to close range. I have only minimal skills in rockets/HAM but that can be quickly changed. I'd have liked to see the Sac have all medium missile bonuses (HML and HAM) but just HAM will do OK, I think, especially if universal damage type bonuses stay.
Ash Vincetti Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.07.30 15:47:00 - [692] Am I the only amarr pilot that actually looked at the ships, realized that even with split fittings, missiles on amarr ships made sense, and went ahead and trained the appropriate missile, energy weapons & drones skills? The omen has 1 launcher, I use it. The Inquisitor has 3, i use it quite frequently. The malediction 2, which I tend to favor. The Apoc las 2 launchers, which, fitted with torps, make a good difference when NPCing. The Arbitrator as 1 launcher, which I also make use of. The missile slots were there, and those of us who trained to use them, are now being rewarded in the Khanid line. It is a welcome change, and one that I think is good. Those that are whining because "I have 10M sp in gunnery and they are now useless" - they were useless if you maxed them out anyway. Lasers are an awesome primary damage type, but where they really shine, is when they are being augmented by the secondary damages that the ships provide - Drones & Missiles (Apoc, Arbitrator, Omen) ----- free bree!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:20:00 - [693] Edited by: Goumindong on 30/07/2007 16:21:45 Possibly. But you arent the one that realized that since these ships were useless with lasers anyway, a change to make them not use lasers is pretty freaking dumb. Its like complaining you have to train hybrids instead of lasers because now your favorite ship that used railguns before uses railguns better. It would be like the Moa getting another turret and caldari missile users whining "omg i cant use it now" its freaking ridiculous. The ships sucked, the change is nothing but good. I am probably the largest amarr whiner on this entire forum, nay, the entire game of eve. This change is 100%, unequivicially, good. The change could have been a little bit better. There is nothing wrong with it, stop your whining, its great, its needed. This is one of the better changes the game has seen.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.30 16:45:00 - [694] Originally by: Santa Anna While true, that's not responsive to my point, which is also true. You also won't find a lot of effective setups with 50 cpu to spare for an amp. T1 Amps with more reasonable fitting requirements can cost 20M isk. (Granted, this is in part because of the prevalence of shield tanking in PVE). Its pretty much the same for dual rep armor tanks, exept that you will run into grid problems with them instead of CPU problems. Quote: Meanwhile, you have mwd, shield boost, cap boost, boost amp leaving you either mediocre resists (2x invuln) without web or point or terrible resists with web, point, or both.... The "mediocre resists" of 2x invuln are actually pretty much identical to what you get from a standard 3 * EAN2 fitting for an armortank after skills. Even if you include the higher average armor resistances and the higher resistance boost from a DCU2 on armor 2 invul are still more effective than 2 EAN2. 2 EAN2 with skills at lvl 5 (~2 mil SP) + DC2 + average armor resists = 67.6% average resistances 2 invul2 + DC2 + average shield resistances = 68.3% average resistances Yes, they need cap, but in most pvp encounters their capuse has a neglectible impact. Shieldtankers basically need to waste medslots on MWD, injector and point. Web not really since most shieldtankers operate outside web distance. Armortankers need to waste lowslots on damage mods, a damage control unit, fitting mods (if needed) and need to use more omniresistance harderners to get the same resitances. About shieldtanking << EW: This is correct, but does not mean that shieldtanking is worse than armortanking. It means that EW is more effective than shieldtanking. it is an advantage of shieldtanking ships, no disadvantage, since armortankers do not have the option to sacrifice their tank for something which is more effective.
LiQuiDCooL Valiant Logistics Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:26:00 - [695] umm CCP what are you doing ruining amaar with missiles? Amarr are laser ppl not missile, and because a few people cry about nos u change it after years? the benifet of nos is is lower fitting but doesnt neutrilize the enimey as easy. its like your changing amaar for the worst. Amaar is the most cap intensive race and your make them missile boats and nerfing their ability to use energy vampires so basicially the bargeron is a pos now too LiQuiDCooL Vlinc baby!
Deva Blackfire Citadel of dark arts	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:28:00 - [696] Originally by: LiQuiDCooL umm CCP what are you doing ruining amaar with missiles? Amarr are laser ppl not missile, and because a few people cry about nos u change it after years? the benifet of nos is is lower fitting but doesnt neutrilize the enimey as easy. its like your changing amaar for the worst. Amaar is the most cap intensive race and your make them missile boats and nerfing their ability to use energy vampires so basicially the bargeron is a pos now too Read topic name. KHANIDS. Black boats, the ones you prolly never used anyways.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.30 17:51:00 - [697] Originally by: Aramendel Its pretty much the same for dual rep armor tanks, exept that you will run into grid problems with them instead of CPU problems. I've never wanted to fit dual reps to something I couldn't. At the BS level, though, I primarily use Minmatar when armor tanking. Your experience with Amarr may be different. Quote: Quote: Meanwhile, you have mwd, shield boost, cap boost, boost amp leaving you either mediocre resists (2x invuln) without web or point or terrible resists with web, point, or both.... The "mediocre resists" of 2x invuln are actually pretty much identical to what you get from a standard 3 * EAN2 fitting for an armortank after skills. That doesn't mean they aren't mediocre. Quote: Even if you include the higher average armor resistances and the higher resistance boost from a DCU2 on armor 2 invul are still more effective than 2 EAN2. But that's the best you an do with 6 mid slots with a poor pvp fit. I'm sure you can do better in armor with a better pvp fit. Quote: Yes, they need cap, but in most pvp encounters their capuse has a neglectible impact. Over a 2 minute engagement, running 2 invuln fields will cost you a cap 800 charge (roughly). You also have to run your shield hardeners the whole time, rather than armor hardeners that don't have that constraint. Quote: Shieldtankers basically need to waste medslots on MWD, injector and point. Web not really since most shieldtankers operate outside web distance. While Minmatar don't need webs when not on gates, Caldari sure do. If someone gets out of web range of a caldari ship, the point doesn't mean a lot. If you are putting a point on this theoretical shield tanker, though, he either has 7 med slots, 1 invuln field, or no amp. Quote: Armortankers need to waste lowslots on damage mods, a damage control unit, fitting mods (if needed) and need to use more omniresistance harderners to get the same resitances. But armortankers get more low slots than shield tankers get mid slots, and normally get stronger built-in damage bonuses than shield tankers and (in the case of caldari) have more damaging weapon systems. Never mind that the setup contemplated (mwd, injector) will require fitting mods for most Caldari ships, displacing their "advantage" in being able to fit "extra" damage mods. Quote: About shieldtanking << EW: This is correct, but does not mean that shieldtanking is worse than armortanking. It means the opportunity cost is much higher for shield tankers. Quote: it is an advantage of shieldtanking ships, no disadvantage, since armortankers do not have the option to sacrifice their tank for something which is more effective. Armor tankers could sacrifice their tackle for EWar, or their injector, or their speed. They don't. Why do you think that is? Speed>tackle>cap>ewar>>damage>>>tank Speed allows you to pick fights, Tackle allows you to impose your choice on others ewar allows you to disrupt your targets damage output cap keeps everything going After that, it's just a matter of time. Damage speeds things up Tank is only needed when everything else goes wrong. Complaining that a 4 mid slot tank is equivalent to a 5 low slot tank completely ignores this. A tempest could mount a 4 slot tank. So could a typoon, and an Apoc, or a mega, or a domi, or a hype? Why don't they? Why do people armor tank drakes, ravens, caracals, and moas in pvp? Why do people undock with absolutely no tank on many "shield-tanking" ships? Simple. The opportunity cost for shield tanking is immense and unless reduced substantially by ship bonus (fewer slots) that pilot is better off armor tanking or not tanking at all. With the stacking penalty to damage mods, the opportunity cost to an armor tank is minimal. If you can't hit 3k/s in a speed fit, what else are you going to do with those low slots? And that's why armor tanking is better. It's free. _____ CPU Love
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:20:00 - [698] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 30/07/2007 18:20:12 Originally by: Deva Blackfire Read topic name. KHANIDS. Black boats, the ones you prolly never used anyways. Please, just a bit OT, don't use this as a cop-out. It's still Amarr ships that are effected, so amarr is effected, as other races have their ships kept intact. Also, about khanid boats being useless, no they ewren't, they gave variety and possibility(with assault ships as an example), to fit a little less hard hitting laser assault ship with still webbing/scramming cababilities. To iterate my point, this MIGHT be a change for the better(except like i said, it's probably nerfed later on and the missile skills we need to learn now, become less efiicient etc etc). But also it's not a 100% good change, it does effect training for certain ships(more then 30 mins as stated above), it is a bit of a timesink(to use all ships) and so forth. There is no 100% wrong 100% right in this change. Though i'm more ***ed off that now the nos is being nerfed too (non pvp point of view) So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.*
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:34:00 - [699] Edited by: Julius Romanus on 30/07/2007 18:35:11 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 30/07/2007 14:34:04 Originally by: Great Artista Log in btw, we need moar peeps atm!! Can't, social thing. I'll see if i can squeeze in some battletime later. Originally by: Santa Anna If you have 0 SP in missiles, it'll take around two weeks for you to be very well-skilled in rockets and another two weeks to be equally well-skilled in HAMs. (at least using my attributes, which suck for weapons and ships). If I could get into the Khanid Mk II Sac in 4 weeks, I'd do it without flinching. Finally someone admits that it's not just 30 mins of training. This is the timesink i'm talking about. It's never just "train this to this and you can use stuff", you have to, if you don't want to be a gimped competant, train all the skills you can in a "reasonable" amount of time to certain level. Now it's a must, especially for some ships. Which is kinda silly. Considering YOU ARE BEING GIVEN WARNING AHEAD OF TIME. Just give up already and train the damn skills. If you start training them NOW, they will be DONE by the time the patch hits. I'm overjoyed about the nos change. PVP point of view.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:39:00 - [700] Originally by: Julius Romanus Considering YOU ARE BEING GIVEN WARNING AHEAD OF TIME. Just give up already and train the damn skills. If you start training them NOW, they will be DONE by the time the patch hits. I'm overjoyed about the nos change. PVP point of view. Yes, it's nice that it's given proper warning time. Somewhat nice that i have a reason ot train missiles(still a bit iffy if i will). Yes, this MIGHT be a good change on khanid(we'll see) It's STILL an excess timesink to a gimped, and nos nerfed soon, race. Valid point and one that can be agreed on. Never said "No bad changes no boo hiss go home CCP you suck!!!", never did. Just expressed my, i think valid, complaint about how this will effect me, my plans and overall "feel" of Amarr. Never said i wouldn't train it, as it seems i must now, if i want my dreamjob as a dictor pilot.(goes off to make a thread about this) So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Grytok German Kings OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.30 18:59:00 - [701] Stop complaining about the heavy Armor-Tanked Missile-Boats that we'll get. CCP, pls don't listen to all those bloody whiners. Implement those Khanid-Ships exactly the way they're on SiSi right now!!! I've started as a Gallente, but I've crosstrained Amarr from day one. Why?!? Exactly because of the original post from Sarmaul and his idea of Khanid-Ships. Lots of armor with resist-bonusses, caprecharge-bonus and weapons that do not need cap... ...yeah. Gimme that .
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2007.07.30 19:48:00 - [702] I am very much looking forward to the Malediction and Vengeance changes. Those wonderful ships were in danger of being left behind, and have been granted a new lease of life. Logoffs
Borasao	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:01:00 - [703] Originally by: Grytok Stop complaining about the heavy Armor-Tanked Missile-Boats that we'll get. CCP, pls don't listen to all those bloody whiners. Implement those Khanid-Ships exactly the way they're on SiSi right now!!! No kidding... I can't wait! I started Caldari and crosstrained Amarr. I can't wait to jump into the (proposed) new Vengence and Sacrileges!
Recusor Caldari State Security and Intelligence APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:04:00 - [704] These babies are going to be MEAN
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:13:00 - [705] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 30/07/2007 20:13:16 Well. Even if i have my doubts and problems with this. The fact is; I'm GOING to train missiles. I'm GOING to adapt. I'm GOING to finish my few armor/resistance skills. And i'm GOING to fly these ships. And when some day, somewhere, someone gets owned by the vengeance of doom that can't be touched, and they come here asking for a vengeance nerf./seriously, the explosive resistance is gonna be near unbreakable) I'll point to this thread and say in my best Arnold Schwarzenegger accent: "Juu aaasked fur it!!" So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Simian Specter Tsurokigaarai APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:20:00 - [706] I'm excited, I've been waiting for the Khanid MKII changes to hit since I first heard about it last year. Makes me glad I planned on training missiles pretty soon anyway to fly Stealth Bombers. ______________ Eloquence belongs to the conqueror. Specter
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:37:00 - [707] Edited by: Aramendel on 30/07/2007 20:41:47 Originally by: Santa Anna I've never wanted to fit dual reps to something I couldn't. At the BS level, though, I primarily use Minmatar when armor tanking. Your experience with Amarr may be different. The point is that in order to achieve a tank with the same rep/sec as a SB+SBA you need a dual rep tank. It is the equivalent of SB+SBA and what you compare it against, regardless if you want to fit it or not. Quote: That doesn't mean they aren't mediocre. No. But it neither means that they are bad. You get pretty much the same average resistances as an armortank. Neither an advantage nor disadvantage but balance. Quote: But that's the best you an do with 6 mid slots with a poor pvp fit. I'm sure you can do better in armor with a better pvp fit. Only if you sacrifice dps by using fewer than 3 damagemods. Quote: Over a 2 minute engagement, running 2 invuln fields will cost you a cap 800 charge (roughly). You also have to run your shield hardeners the whole time, rather than armor hardeners that don't have that constraint. Point taken, however this if for shieldtanking missile (and projectile) ships easily overcompensated by having no cap need for the weapons. Quote: While Minmatar don't need webs when not on gates, Caldari sure do. If someone gets out of web range of a caldari ship, the point doesn't mean a lot. It's not a good idea for caldari ships to get into web distance. They have range bonuses for a reason. If they go into web range they will get outdamaged by equal ships. Quote: But armortankers get more low slots than shield tankers get mid slots, and normally get stronger built-in damage bonuses than shield tankers and (in the case of caldari) have more damaging weapon systems. Never mind that the setup contemplated (mwd, injector) will require fitting mods for most Caldari ships, displacing their "advantage" in being able to fit "extra" damage mods. Higher damage is balanced by shorter range. Shieldtankers need mwd + scram + injector. Armortankers need 3 damagemods, DC2 and quite often fitting mods, too. This gives us 3 medslot vs 4 lowslot mods. Most shieldtankers have 6 med slots. Most armortankers have 7 low slots. Equal amount of tanking slots left, assuming that armortankers do not need fitting mods. Which they quite regulary do. An abaddon needs two RCU2 to be able to fit 8 tachyons.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.30 20:37:00 - [708] Edited by: Aramendel on 30/07/2007 20:39:18 Originally by: Santa Anna It means the opportunity cost is much higher for shield tankers. How? Shieldtankers have the option to use their tanking slots for a more effective alternative. Armortank don't. How does having an additional option make the "opportunity cost is much higher for shield tankers"? Quote: Armor tankers could sacrifice their tackle for EWar, or their injector, or their speed. They don't. Why do you think that is? Speed>tackle>cap>ewar>>damage>>>tank Yes, and how does this change anything here? Both armor and shieldtankers need propulsion, scram and injector. Armortankers have then 0-1 slot free. Shieldtankers 2-3 slots. Shieldtankers can replace their shieldtank with a more efficient alternative, EW. Armortankers cannot replace their tank with a more efficient alternative. Quote: Complaining that a 4 mid slot tank is equivalent to a 5 low slot tank completely ignores this. Exept you need more essential lowslot mods than medslot mods, see end of last post. A medslot shieldtanker and a 7 lowslot armortanker have the same amount of slots left for a tank. Quote: A tempest could mount a 4 slot tank. So could a typoon, and an Apoc, or a mega, or a domi, or a hype? Why don't they? Because that means in case of the pest one one damage mod? As you yourself noted damage>>>tank, so fitting 3 damagemods is more important than fitting an armortank, just has mwd, scram injector is more important than fitting a shieldtank. And then there is the DC2, which shield tankers can "outsource" in their lows, but armortankers need to use a tanking slot for. This gives the pest a whole 2 slot for tank. Quote: Why do people armor tank drakes, ravens, caracals, and moas in pvp? Why do people undock with absolutely no tank on many "shield-tanking" ships? Because EW is more effective? Fact is with mwd, scram, injector, 3 damage mods and DC2 both your average shieldtanking and your average armortanking ship have an identical amount of free slots for tank. Your slot number disadvantage does not exist. The only singular reason people often do not use a shieldtank is because EW is >> tank. Does not matter of armor or shieldtank. Which is an advantage of shieldtanks, no disadvantage. Quote: With the stacking penalty to damage mods, the opportunity cost to an armor tank is minimal. You can use the same argument for harderners.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:33:00 - [709] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Santa Anna It means the opportunity cost is much higher for shield tankers. How? Shieldtankers have the option to use their tanking slots for a more effective alternative. Armortank don't. We're talking the tanks, not the ship. It costs 4 mid slots on (say) a raven to get a tank equivalent to 5 low slots on (say) a mega. The cost of giving up those 4 mid slots is higher than the cost of giving up 5 lows on a mega. Why? Because mid slots are more useful than low slots. Cost of tank choice = skill cost + isk cost + opportunity cost You're ignoring opportunity cost. Quote: Quote: Armor tankers could sacrifice their tackle for EWar, or their injector, or their speed. They don't. Why do you think that is? Speed>tackle>cap>ewar>>damage>>>tank Yes, and how does this change anything here? Those four things on the left don't mix well with shield tanking. Quote: Both armor and shieldtankers need propulsion, scram and injector. Armortankers have then 0-1 slot free. Shieldtankers 2-3 slots. Shieldtankers can replace their shieldtank with a more efficient alternative, EW. Armortankers cannot replace their tank with a more efficient alternative. Their efficiencies are equivalent when a shield tanker uses boost + boost amp. Unhardened shields are worthless, so that's 2 more at minimum. You're also giving shield tankers 7 mids again. It's 4, 5, or 6. When you need 4 mid slots to tackle your target and keep your repper running, you run out of slots for an effective tank. Armor tankers have 3, 4, or 5 mids. If you're going to throw away your web/scram/mwd/inj, why not use those slots to ewar rather than tank? Quote: Quote: Complaining that a 4 mid slot tank is equivalent to a 5 low slot tank completely ignores this. Exept you need more essential lowslot mods than medslot mods, see end of last post. A medslot shieldtanker and a 7 lowslot armortanker have the same amount of slots left for a tank. So I can fit a raven with 4 slot t2 tank, mwd, inj, web, scram, and 3x damage mods? Or a drake? Quote: A tempest could mount a 4 slot tank. So could a typoon, and an Apoc, or a mega, or a domi, or a hype? Why don't they? Sorry, this question referred to shield tanks. Why don't tempests, typhoons, Domis, Hypes, Megas, Apocs, and Abaddons run 4-5 slot shield tanks? They have the slots. If shield tanks are better, why not? Quote: Quote: Why do people armor tank drakes, ravens, caracals, and moas in pvp? Why do people undock with absolutely no tank on many "shield-tanking" ships? Because EW is more effective? Fact is with mwd, scram, injector, 3 damage mods and DC2 both your average shieldtanking and your average armortanking ship have an identical amount of free slots for tank. No, and this is precisely the problem. 1) You're forgetting about web which is a must on non-minmatar ships and 2) "your average shield tanking ship" can't fit your setup 3) many armor tankers have a mid for web and a 5th mid left over, so the difference is between 1 and 2 mids. Shield tankers get to shoehorn a tank into 2 slots. Armor tankers get 3 lows plus the mids (in your scheme) and can just pop off a double-stacked dmg mod if they want more tank. Nothing in the mids is negotiable. Quote: Your slot number disadvantage does not exist. You have 3 slots that you can't do anything with. A shield tanking ship has 2 valuable mids. That's the disadvantage. Quote: The only singular reason people often do not use a shieldtank is because EW is >> tank. Does not matter of armor or shieldtank. Which is an advantage of shieldtanks, no disadvantage. It's an advantage of a lack of shield tank. That's the **ing point. A shield tank should be much better than armor. Shield tanking costs more for the same return. Tanking is balanced for PVE but *ed for PVP b/c so many midslot mods are necessary.* _____ CPU Love
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:37:00 - [710] Edited by: Goumindong on 30/07/2007 21:41:21 Edited by: Goumindong on 30/07/2007 21:38:28 Quote: It costs 4 mid slots on (say) a raven to get a tank equivalent to 5 low slots on (say) a mega. No it doesnt! It takes 4 mids slots on a raven to get a tank equivelent to 4 low lots on a mega. it takes 4 mid slots and a low slot on a raven to get a tank equivelent to 5 low slots on a mega! Quote: Because mid slots are more useful than low slots. Cost of tank choice = skill cost + isk cost + opportunity cost You're ignoring opportunity cost. Fine, then since mid slots are worth so damn much, the Cereberus, having more bleeding mid slots than the Sacriledge is starting at a freaking advantage Quote: Sorry, this question referred to shield tanks. Why don't tempests, typhoons, Domis, Hypes, Megas, Apocs, and Abaddons run 4-5 slot shield tanks? They have the slots. If shield tanks are better, why not? Because half of them have freaking armor tanking bonuses and because MWD is worth more than tank to them, and because they have an excess of low slots which NONE of the ships we are talking about have.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:46:00 - [711] Originally by: Aramendel Quote: With the stacking penalty to damage mods, the opportunity cost to an armor tank is minimal. You can use the same argument for harderners. This makes no sense. 7 damage mods in your lows is practically the same as 3. 3 is ~10% better than 2. Even with only 1 you're doing better than most shield tankers. Why would you use 7 stacking hardeners? Opportunity Cost _____ CPU Love
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.30 21:59:00 - [712] Originally by: Santa Anna Originally by: Aramendel Quote: With the stacking penalty to damage mods, the opportunity cost to an armor tank is minimal. You can use the same argument for harderners. This makes no sense. 7 damage mods in your lows is practically the same as 3. 3 is ~10% better than 2. Even with only 1 you're doing better than most shield tankers. Why would you use 7 stacking hardeners? Opportunity Cost With the stacking penalty to hardeners, the opportunity cost to gank is minimal. But for the record. Resists stack individually. So 6 resistance mods would be running about an average of 1.2 stacks. give or take. 3x specific, +2eanm+ 1dc = 6 mods and only 3 stacks[2 stacks for em]. That is a 7-8 slot tank, 2 stacks.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:32:00 - [713] Originally by: Goumindong Fine, then since mid slots are worth so damn much, the Cereberus, having more bleeding mid slots than the Sacriledge is starting at a freaking advantage I have no problem with the new Sac. I quite like it, actually. I'll probably fly it before I fly the Cerb b/c I like guns more than missiles and I get the Sac for free with the Zealot. Aramandel was arguing that shield tanks were better than armor tanks while ignoring the opportunity costs of the various fittings. Quote: Quote: Sorry, this question referred to shield tanks. Why don't tempests, typhoons, Domis, Hypes, Megas, Apocs, and Abaddons run 4-5 slot shield tanks? They have the slots. If shield tanks are better, why not? Because half of them have freaking armor tanking bonuses and because MWD is worth more than tank to them, and because they have an excess of low slots which NONE of the ships we are talking about have. MWD is worth more than tank to every BS but scorpion in PVP. So is scram, and web, and injector. So is damp, td, or sensor booster. This is my point. The cost of mounting a shield tank includes the cost of not using these mods. While nearly equivalent shield/armor tanking capabilities work okay for PVE balancing, PVE shield tanked ships because PVP armor tanked ships because the the higher opportunity cost of shield tanks in PVP. Ignoring this and whining about PVE setups is unproductive. BTW, I also don't use shield tanking outside of semi-afk PVE. I'm not trying to whine to make my setups better. I think I have 1 shield booster fitted on the 50 some-odd ships I have spread around the EVE universe. Shield tanking and armor tanking were just balanced in a vacuum. That balance, if effective, should have lead to people shield tanking shield tanking ships, people armor tanking armor tanking ships, and a few nuts doing things backwards. It didn't. Armor tanking is clearly preferred. Why? Because the difference in opportunity cost between shield and armor tanks swamps the difference in effectiveness. The problem is you can't balance shield tanking for PVP without breaking it for PVE. CCP could introduce low-slot mods as necessary to pvp as web, scram, mwd,and cap injector, but that'd be boring. Maybe have each hardener reduce boost amount by some percentage and have the base booster be more powerful? _____ CPU Love
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.30 22:44:00 - [714] Originally by: Goumindong With the stacking penalty to hardeners, the opportunity cost to gank is minimal. But for the record. Resists stack individually. So 6 resistance mods would be running about an average of 1.2 stacks. give or take. 3x specific, +2eanm+ 1dc = 6 mods and only 3 stacks[2 stacks for em]. That is a 7-8 slot tank, 2 stacks. Yeah, that's not the same as what I was saying. The opportunity cost of the 4 slot armor tank is dmg mods 4-7. Dmg mods 4-7 are worth almost nothing. The opportunity cost of a 5 slot tank is dmg mods 3-7 (or 4-8 on a geddon). The opportunity cost of a 4 slot shield tank is two disabled enemy battleships. _____ CPU Love
Associate	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:46:00 - [715] gah at least leave us the turret slots for if we dont want to use missiles and fly these ships. Plus youll have to give the retribution another mid slot for a point or two now , i dunno why but you'll have to its just right after this .
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.30 23:57:00 - [716] Originally by: Santa Anna Originally by: Goumindong With the stacking penalty to hardeners, the opportunity cost to gank is minimal. But for the record. Resists stack individually. So 6 resistance mods would be running about an average of 1.2 stacks. give or take. 3x specific, +2eanm+ 1dc = 6 mods and only 3 stacks[2 stacks for em]. That is a 7-8 slot tank, 2 stacks. Yeah, that's not the same as what I was saying. The opportunity cost of the 4 slot armor tank is dmg mods 4-7. Dmg mods 4-7 are worth almost nothing. The opportunity cost of a 5 slot tank is dmg mods 3-7 (or 4-8 on a geddon). The opportunity cost of a 4 slot shield tank is two disabled enemy battleships. How are you disabling two battleships with 4 mid slots?
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.31 00:36:00 - [717] Edited by: Aramendel on 31/07/2007 00:39:03 Originally by: Santa Anna 1) You're forgetting about web which is a must on non-minmatar ships I am not forgetting webs. YOu are ignoring that caldari ships do NOT want to get within web distance in the first place, so they plain out do not need to fit a web. Going into web distance = B.A.D., because other ships of the same class will outdamage caldari hybrid and missileships there. In order to win they have to stay outside web distance. I explained that already. Webs are no essential part module for caldari ships since they need to operate outside webdistance to be effective, therefore they only need 3 med slots for non-shieldtank modules. Quote: 3) many armor tankers have a mid for web and a 5th mid left over, so the difference is between 1 and 2 mids. Those "many armor tankers" are actually 5 ships. Ishtar, Myrmidon, Eos, Dominix and Hyperion. There are far more armortankers (of cruisersize or bigger) which have only 3 med slots (Omen, Maller, Thorax, rupture, muninn, Deimos, Zealot, Prophecy, Absolution, Geddon). How would you handle these armortankers, considering they cannot even fit all your "essential" modules? Quote: It's an advantage of a lack of shield tank. That's the **ing point. A shield tank should be much better than armor. Shield tanking costs more for the same return. Tanking is balanced for PVE but *ed for PVP b/c so many midslot mods are necessary.* Now thats some twisted logic here. Shieldtanking should be more effective than armortanking because you can replace a shieldtank with more effective EW? You are seriously trying to argue that? I mean, really? I'm a bit at a loss for words here... Ok, maybe turning the view back on you will help. Let's assume there would exist a lowslot module which would "destroy target when activated". This will increase the "opportunity cost" of armortanking since a far "better" module existed which you can fit in there, right? So armortanking should get boosted? NO! The problem would be not that armortanking is too weak, it's that that bloody new module is too strong and needs to be nerfed/removed/sliced & diced. Guess what, it's the same with shieldtanking and EW. If you think the problem is shieldtanking being to weak think again.
Che Geo	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:32:00 - [718] Congratulations You have turned the Cheap damnation 60-70mil into 130-140mil CLAP CLAP for doubling the price of a ship that is hardly used. What happen you scored a Damnation BPO and wanted to hype the idea of making them more popular and it worked?!? You've also managed to in my honest opinion NERF it more then buff it. Honestly Heavy Assault Missiles on a Battle cruiser that tops out at 1400m/s with T2 MWD is not good enough to get into the Heavy assault missile's 7K range. 1 webber and you're going to have to burn a lot of cap and armor tanking to get in range! Well done. Too bad if you warp in at 50km. You tried to turn a Fleet command ship into a PVP ship and it failed. This is actually the most useless ship fleet if this patch goes though as it is now. And now it costs twice as much. My only hope is this nerf actually makes less people buy them and return the price back to 60-70mil or even cheaper.
Kilda Shepp	Posted - 2007.07.31 03:38:00 - [719] Why would I want to buy a Damnation that really can't do that good damage for 130,000,000 when a EOS which will totally OWN a Damnation for 150,000,000. Even if this patch doesn't change an EOS will still stomp the Damnation.
0zimandius The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 06:03:00 - [720] Holy what?!? plz dont let this happen. im hard core amarr and do not wish to c our ships turned to halfasss caldari abominations. in the post he keeps compareing them to the caldari equivilant. if thats what u want, go get the caldari to start off. i would way rather c no change at all than have what amarr is, be changed like this. sacrilage is one of my favorite ships... but its not because the launchers. if it doesnt have turret hardpoints, i honestly wont fly it. 0zi with a zero
Tamoko Damage Unlimited Inc	Posted - 2007.07.31 06:45:00 - [721] Originally by: 0zimandius Holy what?!? plz dont let this happen. im hard core amarr and do not wish to c our ships turned to halfasss caldari abominations. in the post he keeps compareing them to the caldari equivilant. if thats what u want, go get the caldari to start off. i would way rather c no change at all than have what amarr is, be changed like this. sacrilage is one of my favorite ships... but its not because the launchers. if it doesnt have turret hardpoints, i honestly wont fly it. 0zi with a zero Earth to Ozimandius, these are Khanid ships. Not true Amarr. You've still got a whole boat load of laserboats at your immediate disposal, if you prefer to pewpew. Khanid Mk-II: http://i13.tinypic.com/688zvjk.jpg http://i11.tinypic.com/5ycekb8.jpg
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:29:00 - [722] Originally by: 0zimandius Please don't let this happen. I'm hard core Amarr and do not wish to see our ships turned to halfasss Caldari abominations. I'm with Ozimandius on this one, one of the reason I trained up these particular ships was because I liked the flexibility they gave me. The Damnation gave me options, four Lasers, or four Heavy Missiles with three Armor warfares. Is this not what the Fleet Command ship is meant for...three Warfare Mods and four weapons. Now the Damnation gave me an options, with three high-slots already used, I had a choice, True Amarr Lasers, or Caldari Missiles, four of either or a mix. This is not the case any more. If I wanted to use Lasers with three warfare mods, now I have two Lasers and two Heavy Assault missiles. This is hands down unacceptable. Someone mentioned the speed, that is true, a Damnation doesn't go very fast and with Heavy Assault Missiles you need to be in tight to be effective. I think at least let it be Heavy Missiles and Heavy Assault Missiles if you simply MUST nerf it's Amarr origin. Not exactly thrilled about these changes, Whoever the OP is, he clearly doesn't fly these ships enough to know that flexibility if their attraction. ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!
implanted Caldari THEM.	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:52:00 - [723] This has completely screwed me over.....what if your pure amarr....er no missile skills......this game is becoming "CALDARI-ONLINE"
Julius Romanus Free Space Development Cartel	Posted - 2007.07.31 18:58:00 - [724] Originally by: implanted This has completely screwed me over.....what if your pure amarr....er no missile skills......this game is becoming "CALDARI-ONLINE" implanted Caldari THEM. Whine with your main?
Kunming The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services	Posted - 2007.07.31 19:15:00 - [725] Originally by: Tamoko Originally by: 0zimandius Holy what?!? plz dont let this happen. im hard core amarr and do not wish to c our ships turned to halfasss caldari abominations. in the post he keeps compareing them to the caldari equivilant. if thats what u want, go get the caldari to start off. i would way rather c no change at all than have what amarr is, be changed like this. sacrilage is one of my favorite ships... but its not because the launchers. if it doesnt have turret hardpoints, i honestly wont fly it. 0zi with a zero Earth to Ozimandius, these are Khanid ships. Not true Amarr. You've still got a whole boat load of laserboats at your immediate disposal, if you prefer to pewpew. Bah thats one hell of a crappy arguement based on a vague backstory instead of game balance, it doesnt even state that khanid ships use missiles it says nothing about all that. ALSO, if Khanid are a different faction than Amarr as u insist, why do you need Amarr skills to use them instead of the 2 skills, Amarr and Caldari like other faction ships do and why arent they faction ships anyway?! The T2 ship lines should have been Sarum, Carthum and Viziam, if Khanid are a different faction and are not loyal to the original Amarr navy doctrine why are they presented as the advancement from T2 ships? Khanid should be turned into faction ships, missiles have nothing to do with what Amarr is originally! Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Hedeon Mishenka Kinetic Vector	Posted - 2007.07.31 22:13:00 - [726] Originally by: Julius Romanus Originally by: implanted This has completely screwed me over.....what if your pure amarr....er no missile skills......this game is becoming "CALDARI-ONLINE" implanted Caldari THEM. Whine with your main? Just because you are a Caldari character doesn't mean you fly or are skilled to use Caldari ships. I can barely fly a Raven. I'm pure Amarr in my skills. Your argument, or lack thereof, loses. .: You laugh because I'm different :: I laugh because you're all the same :.
Norman Vere	Posted - 2007.07.31 23:59:00 - [727] I've been using the sac as a low sec gatecamping sensor dampener, and loving it quite frankly. When using this set-up I need to be at 14+ km to properly have the other guy locked down. Heavy assault missiles get maybe 12km without using the t2 stuff? And the rocket vengeance does if you are lucky, 100dps? I have Assault ships 5 too. Why would I take the two weeks to train rockets up when my retribution will ream the vengeance in almost every situation (yes you can do some crazy ew and specialized tanks on the vengeance to beat it, but barring that...) I guess, i kinda like the idea of giving us the ability to use different types of damage, but I don't like the idea of entirely removing the lasers, which is the only thing us pure Amarrian characters have trained. I like the flavor of these changes, but I think that noone uses heavy assualt missiles and rockets simply because the dps doesn't get high enough. Less damage and less range? why use them? Looks like I will continue to fly my retribution and zealot.
Valdimir Therin	Posted - 2007.08.01 00:13:00 - [728] Quote: which is the only thing us pure Amarrian characters have trained. No, training nothing but lasers doesn't make you "pure" it makes you a newbie. More than half the amarr fleet already had supplementary missile slots. Id guess most of the ships in the game actually have at least 1 or 2 missile slots Not deigning to train missiles just means you have your head in the sand.
Kunming The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services	Posted - 2007.08.01 01:38:00 - [729] Originally by: Valdimir Therin Quote: which is the only thing us pure Amarrian characters have trained. No, training nothing but lasers doesn't make you "pure" it makes you a newbie. More than half the amarr fleet already had supplementary missile slots. Id guess most of the ships in the game actually have at least 1 or 2 missile slots Not deigning to train missiles just means you have your head in the sand. Yeah apoc was such a missile spammer with its 2 missile slots, not to forget the geddon which totally owned the missile arena with its ZERO missile slots. But all this cant be beaten by the omen and maller, a serious competition to the caracal when it comes to missiles!! The only Amarr T1 ship that has a missile bonus is the inquisitor and its T2 variant is the stealth bomber purifier which has missile bonuses just like its T1 hull. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Lord Loom Loom Service Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.08.02 13:04:00 - [730] Edited by: Lord Loom on 02/08/2007 13:04:38 there are people who fit missiles in those slots you ******* troll, just because you're too stubborn to even consider missile training doesn't mean everyone else is equally braindead ---------- KEEP TRY!!!
Tyranne Amarr	Posted - 2007.08.05 18:15:00 - [731] With the Vengeance now being a missile boat, the Retribution needs a 2nd mid-slot. Every other Assault ship in the game has at least 2 of mid-slots and low-slots, but the Retribution only has one mid-slot, making it a difficult ship to use successfully in PvP without support. Before, laser-skilled Amarr ship pilots had the choice of "all out fire power support" vs. "well-balanced tackler" when it came to assault ships. Now laser specialists are left with only one choice, which is unfair when you look at the assault ship choices of other factions. Even if it means sacrificing a high-slot, the Retribution will need a mid-slot more than ever after the chages to Khanid ships. As for me, I'm training Missle Launcher Operation II right now. Until lasers get fixed as well, I'll be a Khanid fan.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.05 18:33:00 - [732] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 30/07/2007 20:13:16 Well. Even if i have my doubts and problems with this. The fact is; I'm GOING to train missiles. I'm GOING to adapt. I'm GOING to finish my few armor/resistance skills. And i'm GOING to fly these ships. And when some day, somewhere, someone gets owned by the vengeance of doom that can't be touched, and they come here asking for a vengeance nerf./seriously, the explosive resistance is gonna be near unbreakable) I'll point to this thread and say in my best Arnold Schwarzenegger accent: "Juu aaasked fur it!!" Just wanted to rvisit this statement and say, no, i won't be training missiles. My "Amarr patriotism", sorta, won and i'll be finding other suitable ships to fly So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Minuteman Creative Destruction	Posted - 2007.08.12 21:27:00 - [733] ... Those are Minuteman's three dots of disappointment. (Patent pending) Minuteman's Comic
Kel Dario Amarr M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.12 21:56:00 - [734] what's up with you whiners? The new sacrilege looks awesome. I can't wait until I can use one //Kel
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.08.12 22:20:00 - [735] Aramendel: Losing a MWD, scram, or injector is far, FAR more painful than losing that third damage mod. Shield tanks have virtually no versatility. With a "3-slot" armor tank, you can choose between repper, 2x resist mods or 2x repper and one resist mod. A "3-slot" shield tank MUST use boost + SBA + one resist mod. "4-slot" tanks do the same thing. Can choose between 1 rep, 3 resist or 2 rep, 2 resist. Shield tanker must use boost + SBA + 2 resist.
Cpt LeChuck	Posted - 2007.08.13 00:12:00 - [736] I've got a great idea, if we are gonna screw around with Amarr (some more) why not make Caldari ship's only have bonuses to civilian mods. And why not make the Mega-T a mid range structure tanking laser boat that can only fly backwards. I guess im the only person with a dislike to this Amarr nurf.
Fortuk Monmouth MetaForge Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.08.14 18:21:00 - [737] Edited by: Fortuk Monmouth on 14/08/2007 18:22:44 this is making me laugh, this is the same thing caldari have to go through, look at the eagle, harpy, and rokh. Do you really think that amarr shouldn't have to be bothered spending some training time on some useful skills. I am caldari and have as much gunnery as missile skills because of the sniper boats we have, they are there, and im going to use them. Missiles are the best for PvE IMO and my corp had a frig tourny a bit ago, missile boats did so much better than frigs that didnt use missiles. I also have an amarr alt, and while he doesnt have any missile skills yet, with these changes those ships become useable and that character will be trained up in missiles in no time. I suggest instead of whining, go test em out, figure out their strengths and weaknesses, and start buying those missile skills. If you dont want to have to cross-train stuff, go fly gallente, drones and blasters and you are set! EDITED I'm a noob and cannot spell Originally by: hango Our corp chat is generally full of people e-hugging and e-snuggling. ISD is cool like that.
myfaith	Posted - 2007.08.25 08:20:00 - [738] I've not read all the posts, so please excuse me if someone already answered my questions. So, why giving amarr (maybe?) more powerful ships with short range missiles by giving them a bonus on all dmg types? So my suggestions are: - giving amarr ships bonuses on their type of damage (more realistic, as someone already suggested) OR - giving amarr ships bonuses only on kinetic dmg (like caldari) OR - giving caldari ships bonuses on all dmg types (this could make noone happy but caldari ) It could be funny and useful to do a poll with these (or other) options to see what is the opinion of players. Thanks, mf
Forsch Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.25 09:06:00 - [739] Originally by: myfaith So, why giving amarr (maybe?) more powerful ships with short range missiles by giving them a bonus on all dmg types? So my suggestions are: - giving amarr ships bonuses on their type of damage (more realistic, as someone already suggested) OR - giving amarr ships bonuses only on kinetic dmg (like caldari) OR - giving caldari ships bonuses on all dmg types (this could make noone happy but caldari ) So, I cannot extract much sense from your post but you can pack the em/thermal dmg idea and go home. So, it's been a highly criticized issue for Amarrians and it's about time for a change. Originally by: myfaith It could be funny and useful to do a poll with these (or other) options to see what is the opinion of players. So, you could get an idea about people's opinion by reading the thread. Forsch Defender of the empire
myfaith Vertigo Project Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.25 09:47:00 - [740] Originally by: Forsch So, I cannot extract much sense from your post From: the dev blog As always, the above changes are not final and subject to change if they turn out to be overpowered or under-performing. Of course we would like to hear your feedback on the Nosferatu and Khanid changes (from Caldari pilots too). I think of post as a Caldari perspective for new Khanid changes. I know there's a more specific post, but hey this is the "official", isn't it? Originally by: Forsch So, you could get an idea about people's opinion by reading the thread. Yeah, but I don't think that 25k+ players would read all the 26 pages of this post and reply, or should they? mf
Nipplator Amarr Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.25 12:09:00 - [741] I guess I should invest in the heretic bpo b/c I'm going to start losing alot of them if I have to use rockets.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.25 12:25:00 - [742] Originally by: myfaith I've not read all the posts, so please excuse me if someone already answered my questions. So, why giving amarr (maybe?) more powerful ships with short range missiles by giving them a bonus on all dmg types? So my suggestions are: - giving amarr ships bonuses on their type of damage (more realistic, as someone already suggested) OR - giving amarr ships bonuses only on kinetic dmg (like caldari) OR - giving caldari ships bonuses on all dmg types (this could make noone happy but caldari ) It could be funny and useful to do a poll with these (or other) options to see what is the opinion of players. Thanks, mf Ill explain this to you. Because Khanids get bonus to one missile TYPE. Not "+5% damage bonus to missiles" (= heavy + assault) but only HAM thus reducing the amount of weapons we can use "effectively" by half. Same for heretic/malediction ROCKET damage (no standard missiles). thats why doing the crow standard missile thingy on maled wont work too good (even worse damage than crow).
myfaith Vertigo Project Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.25 13:01:00 - [743] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Because Khanids get bonus to one missile TYPE. Not "+5% damage bonus to missiles" (= heavy + assault) but only HAM thus reducing the amount of weapons we can use "effectively" by half. Same for heretic/malediction ROCKET damage (no standard missiles). thats why doing the crow standard missile thingy on maled wont work too good (even worse damage than crow). You're right, I made a mistake referring only to hac and command ship and their HAM setup, calling them "missiles". mf
sinbadly Amarr Gallente Federal Bank	Posted - 2007.08.25 16:53:00 - [744] thank u for totaly nerfing my toon
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.25 22:32:00 - [745] thank you for godly boost for my ships, so i can fly em again :)
Koryvarn Amarr Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.08.26 12:10:00 - [746] I'm Amarr through and through, though recently I've been carebearing in a Raven while training up missile skills and getitng the hang of launchers. I'm really excited about the new Vengeance and Sacri, can't wait! Oh, and I second the motion for the Retribution to loose a high slot and gain a mid slot. Then all they need to do is fix AF speeds so thy go ~2km /s with MWD rather than 1, and we're good to go.
Timour	Posted - 2007.08.30 12:26:00 - [747] I agree with sinbadly thanks for nerf the Khanid ships
Borasao	Posted - 2007.08.30 13:41:00 - [748] Edited by: Borasao on 30/08/2007 14:31:26 I think the changes are flat-out awesome. The Khanid ships are actually useful now instead of being bastardized crap whose only saving grace was that they were dirt cheap because they sucked so bad.
DamnedSpirit Amarr Counter Measure	Posted - 2007.08.30 13:59:00 - [749] Edited by: DamnedSpirit on 30/08/2007 13:59:31 Before the changes i thought the khanid ships would be ruined by this but after some refitting my Sacrilege is pretty sweet now, iv only just started using heavy assault missiles and am already finding the sacril much better than before even with basic missile skills.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:27:00 - [750] o7 Sarmaul o7 * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:01:00 - [751] Khanid MKII is easily the single greatest boost I've ever experienced in my entire life. TRAIN THE *888* MISSLE SKILLS!!! GAHHHHHHH!!!!! RAWRRRR!!!! JUST TRAIN THE SIMPLE MISSLE SKILLS I'm sorry....I lost my temper at all the whiners who perfer flying gimped ships for a second
Kunming The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services	Posted - 2007.09.01 09:30:00 - [752] R.I.P. Amarr... Right now there is no single race whos not forced to train missiles, soon we will be playing Caldari Online! Its not about the skills its about the flavour, ppl who trained amarr did it for the lasers, if I wanted to use missiles as a primary weapon I would've train up my caldari skills long ago. The game is losing its atmosphere and diverse flavours (tons of nerfs coming every month) since 2 years now. Its losing its virtual reality feeling in exchange for more of a game feeling. Yes, Khanid ships sucked that doesnt mean CCP should simply copy paste a design from caldari onto khanid ships, why change the weapon system after 3 years, its way too radical of a change? Also to all you ppl calling us "whiners" well if we are whiners you are "idiots": Khanid ships were especially strong against gallente ships, take deimos vs sacrilege (5 blasters vs 4 pulse and 2 NOS, dead deimos) as an example, or the damnation, now they suck vs gallente and are useful vs minmatar and maybe caldari. Khanid ships might be more useful now than before but I eat up any same-class Khanid ship with all my gallente ships and with all my amarr pulse boats, so its not really a boost but a change of flavour which does only turn Amarr ships into caldari ships! Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.01 12:12:00 - [753] Originally by: Kunming Flood of tears Whats stopping you from using 4 HAMs and 2 NOS to pwn a deimos now if the Sac was so great? The lasers made it great? Then what was stopping you from using a Zealot to pwn a deimos even better? Too expensive? So the only thing really great about the Sac WAS that it was cheap, which was exactly because it was just a weak Zealot copy while now it is something with character. But please, keep up your baseless personal vendetta against anything not laser on Amarr ships. It sure as hell is amusing. But how do you know everyone who trained up Amarr did so for the lasers? My alt for one trained up Amarr DESPITE the lasers, because even without lasers Amarr has some decent ships, and in anticipation of the Khanid MKII change. Not every Amarr is a laser-focused self-pitying bonehead. Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.01 12:18:00 - [754] Originally by: Kunming R.I.P. Amarr... Right now there is no single race whos not forced to train missiles, soon we will be playing Caldari Online! Its not about the skills its about the flavour, ppl who trained amarr did it for the lasers, if I wanted to use missiles as a primary weapon I would've train up my caldari skills long ago. Right now there is no single race whos not forced to train drones, soon we will be playing Gallente Online! Quote: The game is losing its atmosphere and diverse flavours (tons of nerfs coming every month) since 2 years now. Its losing its virtual reality feeling in exchange for more of a game feeling. Yes, Khanid ships sucked that doesnt mean CCP should simply copy paste a design from caldari onto khanid ships, why change the weapon system after 3 years, its way too radical of a change? Why change sacri weapon system 1,5 year ago from MISSILES to lasers. Sacri WAS missile boat but ppl like you whined and it lost its missile bonus. Atm it got back bonus but for "special" ppl they left turret slots. If you want to use em - feel free to. Quote: Also to all you ppl calling us "whiners" well if we are whiners you are "idiots": Khanid ships were especially strong against gallente ships, take deimos vs sacrilege (5 blasters vs 4 pulse and 2 NOS, dead deimos) as an example, or the damnation, now they suck vs gallente and are useful vs minmatar and maybe caldari. Ok lets start calling you idiot then, easier to talk. Then mister idiot: sacri atm will win most of the time with deimos due to being faster AND better tanked. If you are slower you can tank him, if you are faster he cant keep with you. Damage on sacri is pretty much on top with all hard hitting HACs. My sac with maxed skills (takes a while to get there) will hit for 500dps and still can outtank most nanoships and outrun turds like deimos. As for Damnation winning with Eos? Stop joking please... fly Eos in combat and you will know why damnation had and still has no chance to win over one. Quote: Khanid ships might be more useful now than before but I eat up any same-class Khanid ship with all my gallente ships and with all my amarr pulse boats, so its not really a boost but a change of flavour which does only turn Amarr ships into caldari ships! Maybe find ppl who know how to fly khanid toys?
L33t Sphere	Posted - 2007.09.01 16:27:00 - [755] Amarr now have some extremely powerful ships, I can't believe people are complaining. Look at the Damnation, its tank is insane! 1 neut, 1 smartbomb, HAMS, UBERTANK?! Quit complaining. All the Amarr need now is thermal and EM laser damage switch and they'll be up there pvping with the best of them.
Robstr Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.09.01 21:40:00 - [756] Edited by: Robstr on 01/09/2007 21:40:52 This is a boost across the board for these ships. I don' care at all that I have to train missiles, if I wan to use lasers I'll use the versions that have bonuses for them(and were better to use in the first place). My only issue is that it's hard to fit a 400mm plate on the rocket malediction. If you want t2 scram/MWD ====
K'Vigor Amarr Trouble Every Day	Posted - 2007.09.16 16:54:00 - [757] I take back all the b'itching I was doing about these Khanid changes, I have come to realise they are full of win.... ....pure win
Kerdrak 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.16 17:32:00 - [758] Sacrilege = best amarr ship to do lvl 4 missions. Omnitank (2 med reppers + AB with sustainable cap) + small sig radius + choosing damage type = win. ________________________________________
Krysta Gemme Scottish Noob Killers	Posted - 2007.09.28 14:42:00 - [759] Originally by: Kunming R.I.P. Amarr... Right now there is no single race whos not forced to train missiles, soon we will be playing Caldari Online! Its not about the skills its about the flavour, ppl who trained amarr did it for the lasers, if I wanted to use missiles as a primary weapon I would've train up my caldari skills long ago. The game is losing its atmosphere and diverse flavours (tons of nerfs coming every month) since 2 years now. Its losing its virtual reality feeling in exchange for more of a game feeling. Yes, Khanid ships sucked that doesnt mean CCP should simply copy paste a design from caldari onto khanid ships, why change the weapon system after 3 years, its way too radical of a change? Also to all you ppl calling us "whiners" well if we are whiners you are "idiots": Khanid ships were especially strong against gallente ships, take deimos vs sacrilege (5 blasters vs 4 pulse and 2 NOS, dead deimos) as an example, or the damnation, now they suck vs gallente and are useful vs minmatar and maybe caldari. Khanid ships might be more useful now than before but I eat up any same-class Khanid ship with all my gallente ships and with all my amarr pulse boats, so its not really a boost but a change of flavour which does only turn Amarr ships into caldari ships! OMG! Variety! Run for your life! There are plenty of other ships in the Amarr arsenal that have problems that you can fly you know. If you have that much of an issue with missiles you still have the nasty laserboat the Zealot, or other laser platforms in almost every category Khanid Innovation plays in. Seriously, you talk as if you have no choice and someone is putting a gun to your head to fly Khanid. If you don't like Japanese cars, don't drive them. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) "Born Amarr. Raised Matari. Separated by hatred. Together by fate."
Dizeezer Velar Caldari Atomic Heroes The OSS	Posted - 2007.09.28 16:37:00 - [760] Oh god give me a break! 1. missiles were never only a Caldari weapon platform 2. Every race cross trains other weapon systems 3. Khanid always was a caldari and amarr faction. The khanid ships changes are fantastic! Originally by: Kunming R.I.P. Amarr... Right now there is no single race whos not forced to train missiles, soon we will be playing Caldari Online! Its not about the skills its about the flavour, ppl who trained amarr did it for the lasers, if I wanted to use missiles as a primary weapon I would've train up my caldari skills long ago. The game is losing its atmosphere and diverse flavours (tons of nerfs coming every month) since 2 years now. Its losing its virtual reality feeling in exchange for more of a game feeling. Yes, Khanid ships sucked that doesnt mean CCP should simply copy paste a design from caldari onto khanid ships, why change the weapon system after 3 years, its way too radical of a change? Also to all you ppl calling us "whiners" well if we are whiners you are "idiots": Khanid ships were especially strong against gallente ships, take deimos vs sacrilege (5 blasters vs 4 pulse and 2 NOS, dead deimos) as an example, or the damnation, now they suck vs gallente and are useful vs minmatar and maybe caldari. Khanid ships might be more useful now than before but I eat up any same-class Khanid ship with all my gallente ships and with all my amarr pulse boats, so its not really a boost but a change of flavour which does only turn Amarr ships into caldari ships!
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.28 18:14:00 - [761] Originally by: Robstr Edited by: Robstr on 01/09/2007 21:40:52 This is a boost across the board for these ships. I don' care at all that I have to train missiles, if I wan to use lasers I'll use the versions that have bonuses for them(and were better to use in the first place). My only issue is that it's hard to fit a 400mm plate on the rocket malediction. If you want t2 scram/MWD Not quite across the board - the Curse needs work, especially considering the upcoming nerf to damps which is likely to squish the typical nano-damp-neut curse set up. C. - sig designer - eve mail

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