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Horas Redwyne Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:38:00 - [511] Edited by: Horas Redwyne on 29/07/2007 11:41:18 Less cap use and free med slots. Its a huge win win. And this is coming from a laser speced char (13mil in gunnery - pulse). Was thinking about going along the missile path (bombers) but with this i just started to train it and will stick with it. This made my day!
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:39:00 - [512] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Like I said, back when Amarr ships were NOT broken yet Khanid already were. So Khanid were not broken for the same reason, the amarr nerf just broke them a bit more. Still seems fair that they get fixed first. Actually the main reason khanid was broke, because it was done half-a'd before. Just squeeze amarr and caldari together. And when it didn't work, well, "There ya go amarr! your new ships!"..gee thanks. Umm...put 'em in the back and leave 'em there. Now that they DO fix HALF our T2's, they make them even less amarr. THIS was the problem. Originally by: Leandro Salazar I don't think Vengeance and nice fit in the same sentence match very well :P Retribution is much better for anything but solo work, and this is not a single player game . Not that I would not wholeheartedly agree with giving the Retri a second medslot. Yes the vengeance wasn't anything epscial to begin with, well, neither was the retribution. But now it's completely out of the laser guys arsenal. If retri got another midslot, i'd be quite happy with assault ships altogether Originally by: Leandro Salazar That depends entirely in how you define Amarr. I define Amarr by the ships that require Amarr spaceship commmand skills to fly. You define Amarr by LaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaserLaser.... Pure amarr was my point, and amarr is "laserlaserlaser" to some degree, always has been. Some amarr are more "a bit of missile, bit of drones, but still...lasers are a must." If there's some "Amarr" flying around in a armageddon with hybrids/projectiesl on it, he's NO Amarr and the emperor is turnihng in his grave. Somethings just are...Amarr. And like i did say, training missiles is somewhat acceptable, as now khanid ships seem to have a purpose. It was never a problem. The allocation of focus was. Originally by: Leandro Salazar I don't know why it is there (Something to do with religious fanatics comes to mind ) but its existence is constantly proven in most Amarr ship balance threads and it has nothing to do with its detection by outsiders... Well i'm no avid fan either, but calling all who oppose something brickwalls and fanatics will get you just that, a kick in the face. Be polite and you get polite answers. Though with me you get polite answers anyway So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Nephrops norvegicus Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:47:00 - [513] Personally it seems like CCP just want more people to use HAMs, so they are going to force the issue, and in the meantime fux the only versitile ships the amarr have. True amarr characters are better off training gallente than training missiles, and that path met universal agreement in alliance IRC a few moments ago.
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:51:00 - [514] Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 29/07/2007 11:54:33 Originally by: Kerfira Sacrilege... Great, take away the good Amarr HAC (it's survivable, Zealot isn't)!! It has the same amount of armor, with the same resists, the same amount of shield, the same capacitor, is faster and can fire it's weapons without using cap. How exactly is this version less survivable?
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:53:00 - [515] Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly It has the same amount of armor, with the same resists, the same amount of shield, the same capacitor, is faster and gains a low slot (at the expense of a highslot) and can fire it's weapons without using cap. How exactly is this version less survivable? I think he meant "take away the only good HAC 'cause Zealot(the omen variant) isn't a good one and i can't use this new Khanid 'cause i can't use missiles." So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:57:00 - [516] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 11:59:14 Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 29/07/2007 11:54:33 Originally by: Kerfira Sacrilege... Great, take away the good Amarr HAC (it's survivable, Zealot isn't)!! It has the same amount of armor, with the same resists, the same amount of shield, the same capacitor, is faster and can fire it's weapons without using cap. How exactly is this version less survivable? '5% bonus to all armor resistances per level' perhaps? Not to mention that its 4 mids (zealot has 3), makes it much more viable close-range since it can fit 2 webs, not just one (in addition to the warp scrambler...).... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Reite Aliastra	Posted - 2007.07.29 11:59:00 - [517] am i the only one with a char whos completly amarr specced, but at the same time like the changes?
Asestorian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:07:00 - [518] I have mixed feelings about this one. On one hand I do have a few missile skills that can be trained up, but on the other hand I've spent huge amounts of time training into gunnery, to the point where the only skills I have left to train are the specialisation skills to 5, or another races weapons. It will certainly be interesting flying these new ships. I'll definitely have a go with them, and probably enjoy them. But I really hope that some decent changes come to the original (Laser using) Amarr ships soon. --- ---
Queen Hopy Your Friendly Booster Company	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:18:00 - [519] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 12:08:03 The new one will not BE an Amarr HAC anymore... It'll be an armor tanking close-range Cerberus.... Exacly, and that is not what it should be. Make the missile dmg bonus to em/thermal or give cerberus a bonus to all missile types too.
RedClaws Amarr Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:21:00 - [520] nope I'm amarr specced and like these new changes. It's not like missles need a lot of time to train. I haven't flown the amarr inties since the +25% pulse tracking buff but I knew they before that I couldn't hit a darn thing in an inty. Any new thoughts on this?
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:23:00 - [521] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 12:08:03 Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 29/07/2007 11:54:33 Originally by: Kerfira Sacrilege... Great, take away the good Amarr HAC (it's survivable, Zealot isn't)!! It has the same amount of armor, with the same resists, the same amount of shield, the same capacitor, is faster and can fire it's weapons without using cap. How exactly is this version less survivable? '5% bonus to all armor resistances per level' perhaps? Not to mention that its 4 mids (zealot has 3), makes it much more viable close-range since it can fit 2 webs, not just one (in addition to the warp scrambler...).... The new one will not BE an Amarr HAC anymore... It'll be an armor tanking close-range Cerberus.... It keeps it 5% armor bonus, and 4 midslots. Did you even look at the SISI stats or are you basing yourself on something else? As for you feeling it's no longer an Amarr ship, well /shrug. Variety is a good thing in my book.
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:26:00 - [522] I'd like to point something out to those whining. I'm Amarr specced. I've used Lasers for the last 3 years on this character. I'm specced in Command Ships, Inties, Assaults, Heavy Assaults and Covert Ops. Whenenver I want to do gang support, the Damnation is my first choice. Whenenver I want to tank like a bastard, the Damnation or Sacrilege is my first choice. I fly an Anathema as scout. I adore the Malediciton for how it looks and flies. I have 40k in Missiles. I THINK THESE CHANGES ARE AWESOME. ADAPT. >>> THE BEAUTY OF NEW EDEN <<<
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:27:00 - [523] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Kerfira The reason I mainly see this as bad is that it takes away a good part of the reason to actually use/train lasers at all Uhm, lets see... Sarilege? Definitely no reason to train laser skills. Vengeance? Same Heretic? Even more so Damnation? If you want laserage you get an Abso. Anathema? Don't fight anyway. That leaves the only ship possibly ill affected for laser-for-brains the Malediction, and for normal players it will be a much better ship. (Giving the Crusader a 3rd medslot would fix the lack of a laser intie too). Originally by: Kerfira Decent missile skills 6-8m SP Decent clue? Priceless I use T2 torps and only have 2 mil total in missiles. I guess to be good with rockets and standards you need less than 1.5 mil SP. No, torps are the least skillpoint intensive of the missile classes because most of the support skills don't effect them. To be truly effective with any other missile type you need atleast 4million sp in missiles.
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:32:00 - [524] Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 29/07/2007 12:32:55 Originally by: welsh wizard No, torps are the least skillpoint intensive of the missile classes because most of the support skills don't effect them. To be truly effective with any other missile type you need atleast 4million sp in missiles. Only one skill doesn't affect Torpedos: Guided Missile Precision. And that goes for all unguided missiles: torps, rockets and HAMs.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:33:00 - [525] Replace damage bonus with ROF bonus, and don't make them limited to just HAM's. HAM range is limited to 14-15km, while even with crappier dps from lasers you could get 25-30km range, the main advantage of Amarr being high optimal, long engagement range with close range weapons. Either put a velocity bonus on HAM's on Damnation or make the ROF bonus generally applied to both HAM and HM, thus allowing us to engage at over 14km - same goes for the Sacrilege. And don't say "use javelins" javelins have a velocity drawback, which screws up the ideea of a close range armor tanked ship even more. PS: Damnation damage is still sucky. With 2 BCU's t2 best i can get is 263 dps - maxed skills i think. Change the Dam bonus to a ROF bonus. Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:34:00 - [526] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 12:36:21 Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly As for you feeling it's no longer an Amarr ship, well /shrug. Variety is a good thing in my book. Looks to me Caldari are the long range missile race, and Khanid is trying to fill in the close range missile niche. How is changing yet MORE ships into being missile ships adding variety???? It is TAKING away variety by making it even less attractive to train lasers. Missiles are already hugely popular and trained, while lasers aren't. Why exactly is it that missile users need a boost and laser users a nerf? These new khanid ships are very powerful ones (and I like them as such), but they take AWAY from a skill area that's got precious few good things going for it (lasers), and add to a skill area that's already very good (missiles). If this'd been new ships being added, I'd have had my hands just as high as the rest of you.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:35:00 - [527] You're right. Hes still ineffective with 2 million sp in missiles for anything other than npc death though...
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:37:00 - [528] AWESOMENESS ON A PLANE ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! -Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot -Maller: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus -Zealot: +10% more golden hull
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:42:00 - [529] Oh, and revise the cargo bay of the Khanid ships. 350m3 on a Damnation is hardly sufficient for missiles + cap charges. Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ.
Queen Hopy Your Friendly Booster Company	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:43:00 - [530] Originally by: Setana Manoro Edited by: Setana Manoro on 29/07/2007 12:34:20 Replace damage bonus with ROF bonus, and don't make them limited to just HAM's. HAM range is limited to 14-15km, while even with crappier dps from lasers you could get 25-30km range, the main advantage of Amarr being high optimal, long engagement range with close range weapons. Either put a velocity bonus on HAM's on Damnation or make the ROF bonus generally applied to both HAM and HM, thus allowing us to engage at over 14km - same goes for the Sacrilege. And don't say "use javelins" javelins have a velocity drawback, which screws up the ideea of a close range armor tanked ship even more. PS: Damnation damage is still sucky. With 2 BCU's t2 best i can get is 263 dps - maxed skills i think. Change the Dam bonus to a ROF bonus. PPS: Good thing i started last month missiles. :) So you are asking for the sacrilege to step even more on the toes of a cerberus?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:45:00 - [531] To use the missiles on these ship 'effectively', you need: Missle Launcher Op 5 = 256K Rockets 5 = 256K Heavy Assault Missiles 5 = 768K Missile Projection 4 = 181K Rapid Launch 4 = 90K HAM Spec 3 = 40K Rocket Spec 3 = 24K Missile Bomb. 4 = 90K TNP 4 = 90K WHU 3 = 40K For a grand total of 1.835 mil SP. So yeah its more than 1.5 mil but much less than 6 mil. And you can get away with MUCH less by not bothering training T2 and using faction ammo instead, and you don't lose out much. If you want all missiles of course it is a lot, but the beauty of missiles is that you can choose what to train and are not forced to train up the lesser weapons too like with guns. So to be decent in the new Sac, all you really need is roughly 800K sp. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:49:00 - [532] Originally by: Kerfira How is changing yet MORE ships into being missile ships adding variety??? It brings variety to the Amarr shipline, it also brings armor tanking missile boats.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:55:00 - [533] Originally by: Setana Manoro HAM range is limited to 14-15km, while even with crappier dps from lasers you could get 25-30km range, the main advantage of Amarr being high optimal, long engagement range with close range weapons. Jav HAMs can hit stuff op to 60k while having about the same dps as t1 heavies. Originally by: welsh wizard You're right. Hes still ineffective with 2 million sp in missiles for anything other than npc death though... Uhm.. you can get all missile support skills but GMP (which does not work with rockets & HAMs anyways) at 4, HAM5, MLO5 and HAM spec at 4 for a total of 1.929 mil SP. What makes it "ineffective for anything other than npc death" please? Doing 5% less dps due to having "only" rapid launch and warhead upgrades 4? Having only 87% of the range to to bombardment and projection 4? Or is the cruical stat having only 93% of the explosion velocity due to navigation prediction 4? It surely is beneficial to max those skills, but I kinda doubt that they will make the difference between effective & ineffective in PvP. You could as well claim that you need lvl 5 in every ship skill to be effective with it because the advantage you get from that is about the same as you get from maxing missile support skills.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:58:00 - [534] Originally by: Leandro Salazar ...So to be decent in the new Sac, all you really need is roughly 800K sp. No, that is not 'decent', that's (below) beginner level! To be 'decent' (PvP) you need all the aux. skills at least 4 (5 for the 'short' ones), and spec. at 4 Besides, you're completely misunderstanding... If this'd been new ships added, no problem, but it is TAKING AWAY the best (IMHO) small ships for laser users. Why do that? Are laser users so overpowered that they need nerfing??? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.07.29 12:58:00 - [535] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 12:59:21 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 29/07/2007 12:58:59 But noone here can't argue the fact that laser flying pilots get one up the bum here again. I'm htinking that's what the major "problem" is with. More ships going away from the fly list because of speccing in lasers. OFCOURSE you can train, but like i said, what would the drone users say if suddenly they couldn't use EM/Thermal t2 drones unless they trained laser skills worth of 1.5mil? Originally by: Kerfira Besides, you're completely misunderstanding... If this'd been new ships added, no problem, Exactly. It's like taking 6 ships and saying "No, you can't fly 'em before you go back to school!" If they were a new branch, like, newly named khanid ships...nooooo problem. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:03:00 - [536] Originally by: Setana Manoro HAM range is limited to 14-15km, while even with crappier dps from lasers you could get 25-30km range, the main advantage of Amarr being high optimal, long engagement range with close range weapons. Jav HAMs can hit stuff op to 60k while having about the same dps as t1 heavies. Quote: And don't say "use javelins" javelins have a velocity drawback, which screws up the ideea of a close range armor tanked ship even more. Newsflash: you do not need to have them loaded at all times. Target outranges you: load jav hams. Target is at close range: load normal HAMs. Originally by: welsh wizard You're right. Hes still ineffective with 2 million sp in missiles for anything other than npc death though... Uhm.. you can get all missile support skills but GMP (which does not work with rockets & HAMs anyways) at 4, HAM5, MLO5 and HAM spec at 4 for a total of 1.929 mil SP. What makes it "ineffective for anything other than npc death" please? Doing 5% less dps due to having "only" rapid launch and warhead upgrades 4? Having only 87% of the range to to bombardment and projection 4? Or is the cruical stat having only 93% of the explosion velocity due to navigation prediction 4? It surely is beneficial to max those skills, but I kinda doubt that they will make the difference between effective & ineffective in PvP. You could as well claim that you need lvl 5 in every ship skill to be effective with it because the advantage you get from that is about the same as you get from maxing missile support skills.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:29:00 - [537] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 13:32:58 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Kerfira No, that is not 'decent', that's (below) beginner level! To be 'decent' (PvP) you need all the aux. skills at least 4 (5 for the 'short' ones), and spec. at 4 So around 4m SP. Less than 2 mil SP for that. See above. These are the absolute minimum skills you need...: GMP 4: 226k (and I'd even say this should be at 5, at 1280k) HAM 5: 768k HAM Spec 4: 226k MB 5: 512k MLO 5: 256k RL 5: 512k Rocket 5: 256k Rocket Spec 4: 135k WU 4: 226k Plus, you'll want these to give you flexibility in different tactical circumstances (just as you'll want both pulse and beam with laser): Standard 5: 512k Standard Spec 4: 135k Heavy 5: 768k Heavy Spec 5: 226k I fail to see how that is 2m SP..... If you're content with half-assed skills, of.c. you can do with less..... The above however, is the least any competent PvP'er would consider... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Xanos Blackpaw Amarr The Firestorm Elite	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:33:00 - [538] you whiners out there thinks about this the wrong way. ohnoes!!! i need to train missiles because all the other amarr ships are crap!!11one!!! eleven!! but news flash!: this is just the boost for khanid ships. the amarr boost will come to, they have just not added it to sisi yet! Playing minmatar is "like going down a flight of stairs in a office chair firing an Uzi".
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:42:00 - [539] Edited by: Aramendel on 29/07/2007 13:43:31 To remind you of what you have written: Originally by: Kerfira To be 'decent' (PvP) you need all the aux. skills at least 4 (5 for the 'short' ones), and spec. at 4 GMP is not needed because the skill does not apply on rockets and HAMs, where the khanid ships get boni. It would be like training controlled bursts for projectiles. You don't need rocket AND HAM spec if you specialize on one ship. Thats 2.77 mil SP that way. Or 1.94 mil if you do not train RL5 (relatively minor boost) and MB5 (waste of SP really). If you spec for HAMs. If it's for rockets it is only 1.33 mil SP. Quote: Plus, you'll want these to give you flexibility in different tactical circumstances (just as you'll want both pulse and beam with laser) Exept there are no shipboni which effect ONLY pulse or ONLY beams. There are with missiles. If you want higher range you are better off using the jav ammo than fitting longrange missile launchers and loosing the damage bonus.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.29 13:45:00 - [540] Edited by: Kerfira on 29/07/2007 13:46:45 Originally by: Aramendel Exept there are no shipboni which effect ONLY pulse or ONLY beams. There are with missiles. If you want higher range you are better off using the jav ammo than fitting longrange missile launchers and loosing the damage bonus. So because you get no bonus on the ships to a weapontype, you'll never want to fit it???? You fail at EVE.... And you, like the rest, are completely missing the point!.... This is not about Khanid getting a boost... It is about lasers being made even less attractive to train... Get a clue please.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

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