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Weirda
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Posted - 2006.06.23 22:11:00 -
[181]
 Originally by: korrey
Alright ill get my friend and we'll await your amazing setup. Then test it against a real ship, as im sure you use it to fight of rats fairly well.
weirda is a pvp pilot. period. ask around, just because Weirda doesn't call anyone who doesn't pvp 23/7 a muppet doesn't mean you should go talking like that. geesh, wish some curse pilot (enemies) would jump in here and at least speak to that... 
__
Weirda
Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More! |
Yodohime Kibagami
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Posted - 2006.06.23 22:14:00 -
[182]
Amarr vs gallente DPS comparisons are so delightful.
Amarr is obviously overpowered against cans, demand nerfbat.
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Red Six
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Posted - 2006.06.23 22:30:00 -
[183]
Tassi - Just went through the big thread looking for Rodj Blake's comments and didn't see any from him however I did see alot from Forsch and several other Amarr roleplayers. I think Forsch is on to something and I'll get to that in a sec. I also took a look at a lot of the numbers posted.
Next I came back here to look at things again and this thread was summed up by one poster stating that the rest of the races have solo pwnmobiles, Domi, Raven and Tempest(I guess it is personally it's my fleet ship) and the Amarran's want one too. With that I think I better understand some of the points being posted, I had been avoiding the big thread because, well, that was a lot to wade through.
Some things I agree should happen such as reducing the fitting requirements for Medium, Heavy and Tachyon Beams. That has always been a problem. It was a problem for Blasters for, well, ever so start the campaign for fitting of those. It also appears that the Heavy Pulse could use a slight fitting improvement too although I think the Omen would do better fitting Focused Medium Pulse just like a Stabber fits 220 AC not 425 AC.
The biggest issue though is short range small group fights where typically tanking does make a difference. With the new armor tanking skills it is very easy to get high EM resists. Forsch has stated to solve all the Amarr damage issues simply reversing the percentages for thermal and EM. I'm not sure that's 100% requrired however on short range crystals, those that have a -x.x% range bonus, I think that reversing EM/Thermal might make the Megapulse Geddon/Apoc better. That still gives you good shield damage and good armor damage, Eve math isn't my strong suit as I don't know all the formulaes so I'll let someone who does know them all tell me if that's a dumb suggestion or not. Long range is fine as is I think.
Also someone said that a 2.5% increase in cap usage reduction bonus would significantly help laser users. That would have to be tested on Sisi but that couldn't hurt either. The issue is you can't reduce cap usage on the lasers directly or you'll wind up with everyone and I mean everyone fitting Tachyons again. At one point in the game everyone fit Tachyons to their battleships, even Tempests. So to maintain the individuality the Amarr cap usage bonus came into being and I think if any changes to laser cap usage are done it needs to be through that bonus.
The Apoc should be the king of the tanks but I'm not sure how to fix that except to maybe make the Capacitor capacity bonus 10% instead of 5%. That should hopefully give the Apoc a monster sized capacitor and reduce reliance on Cap Booster 800s giving you another mid slot for use.
I've let my experiences in flying in large fleets color my percptions some, which is why I've changed my position on some items. I hadn't thought about it from a small fleet fight as I typically am in a cruiser or battlecruiser for those.
That being said I still don't think any battleship should be a solo pwnmobile. Frigates, cruisers and battlecruisers (T1/T2) should be your solo artists. That's just my opinion.
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korrey
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Posted - 2006.06.23 22:41:00 -
[184]
The main problem with the Apoc is this. It can tank really well. Then again after all these patches, so can any other ship. So my thing is the Apoc should have a resistance bonus like the Maller. Something that would be more useful than cap which can be sucked dry. Then once you get the resistance up high the apoc will be far more used I think.
The cap bonus as it stands is this. Cap can be sucked faster than a Mercedes. Almost every ship has a bonus that cant be deterred (I.E. you can necesarilly take away the damage of a ship forever, and you cant make the ROF of a geddons turret slow down.) But cap? You can throw it with the wind and then your bonus is meaningless. Resistance on the other hand cant be taken away.
Oh and the other problem with the apoc is yeah sure it can tank. But not long enough for its crappy damage to kill its opponent. Especially not if its nos's.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.23 22:42:00 -
[185]
When Gronsak takes up your cause you've got no chance. I'm glad I keep him as an enemy on the forums ;P
I haven't yet seen one well thought-out argument based on truth, one comparison graph, one rational responce (besides a select few such as Weirda) or anything else that would warrent a dev looking at this topic, let along replying to it.
As has been stated before, Amarr were top of the game for years. Yes, years. This was mainly down to the old stacking system where Amarrian ships could load up with 7 heat sinks, the best guns and kill the target before it had a chance to align for warp. Combined with having one of the highest DPSes in game made for some very unbalanced ships. The primary reason the stacking penalty changes were brought in were to counter this kind of gank combat and the change has been for the better. Amarr ships can't do extreme gank anymore. Well, I hate to break it to you but neither can any other race of ships. The 1400mm artillery tempest was feared with it's 6 damage mods. Then the new stacking penalty came in (along with the hitpoint increase) and it wasn't as good. The alpha strike was lowered, and it's ROF is now even worse than it was before.
Compare that with Tachyons where they have the second highest alpha strike (90% of an arti tempest) and far far higher DPS. "But Sarrrrr, the Apoc and Geddon will be facing 60% EM resistances". Guess what, Minmatar have the fastest lock time and will generally be shooting a ship when it's on shields. Oh look, 60% explosive resistances.
The next argument I hear is "but people fit plates in fleet combat, so more time will be spend shooting at a 60% EM Resistance. Well, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. With base armour resistances factored in, the Armageddon, Tempest and Megathron do virtually identical DPS. Yes that's right, virtually idendical. The Apoc is a little behind, but it's a tanking/cap machine not a gank ship.
Mega: 356 DPS with 3xMF II
Geddon: 354 DPS with 3xHS II
Tempest: 344 DPS with 3xGyro II
It's the main reason why I've stopped bothing to try and get 1400mms boosted (well another 10 dps would be nice) - theyre perfectly balanced with the other guns in fleet. Their insane volley damage is countered by their poor ROF, much like Tachyon's insane damage output is countered by a 60% EM armour resistance.
Another issue I keep seeing as "we don't have enough midslots unlike the other 3 races". Well, you have virtually the same amount of midslots as Gallente and more low slots for fitting tank/cap/wcs/damage mods. Every midslot you use for something other than shield modules hurts a Caldari tank, and the Minmatar ships with midslots generally have pathetic tanks due to lacking lows. The exception are the dedicated shield tankers, but then it falls into the same trap as Caldari.
The problem is that electronic warfare is overpowered, not that Amarr suck due to their lack of midslots. The only reason you want those midslots is so you can jam someone before they jam you which indicates that the system is fubar and needs redoing, not that Amarr need a gazillion more midslots.
Next the "my guns use cap". Yes, your guns use cap. You also have huge capacitors, and your guns don't use as much cap as blasters. Blaster ships have awful cap to begin with. Combine with a MWD being manditory (goodbye 25% cap) and the cap usage on blasters and Amarr gets it pretty good.
For the first time in EVE's history Amarr players are having trouble killing other ships without much effort. Welcome to the real world guys, it's how everyone else has been playing since... well, forever.
I will agree that certain ships could do with a slight boost (anything Khanid + Zealot), but besides that all that's happening is you're getting the short stick when it comes to overpowered game mechanics which need to be fixed as everyone is having trouble with them.
Finally, not everyone runs EANM tanks. A select few battleships do, everyone else still uses hardeners.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.23 22:43:00 -
[186]
And no you don't need higher thermal damage crystals or explosive/kinetic ones either - use your drone bay and missile points ffs.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Imperial Coercion
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Posted - 2006.06.23 22:51:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Sarmaul
And no you don't need higher thermal damage crystals or explosive/kinetic ones either - use your drone bay and missile points ffs.
Yeah, my armageddon and apoc will pwn if I use those.
Oh wait, only apoc has missile slot but it wont matter for the outcome when 1vs1. Id really wish you would get some 1st hand experience Sauroman. It would be so much easier to take you seriously
Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!. |
korrey
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Posted - 2006.06.23 22:53:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Sarmaul
And no you don't need higher thermal damage crystals or explosive/kinetic ones either - use your drone bay and missile points ffs.
So what your saying is on top of the 4 mil sp ive spent on lasers I now need to get 'Drones' to do any damage at all? I dont remember Caldari having to train for 2 weapon systems to win a fight.
Lousy excuse. Period. And Amarr has very few drone ships and the ones that have hold big enough are already gun platforms. So now we need to train for Drones on our Omens to be 'effective'?
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Fuujin
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Posted - 2006.06.23 22:57:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Sarmaul
When Gronsak takes up your cause you've got no chance.
QFT
_______________
The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.23 23:01:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 23/06/2006 23:02:04
If your ship had a drone bay, use them for versatility. Are you honestly complaining about having to train more than just lasers and armour tank when:
Caldari: Missiles, Hybrids, Shield Tank, Drones
Gallente: Missiles (yes some Gallente ships are missile based), Blasters, Hybrids, Armour Tank, Drones
Minmatar: Missiles, Projectiles, Drones, Shield Tank, Armour Tank
You seem to use the excuse that "amarr don't have many dedicated drone ships so why should we train drones". Minmatar have what, 2 dedicated missile ships yet we still need them. We don't have a single dedicated drone ship yet we still need them. The drone bay is the easiest option to vary your damage types. If you don't wish to take advantage of that fact then more fool you.
Imperial Coercion, I'm surprised you haven't been banned for all the trolling and personal insults your doing in the Amarr threads. The moment someone disagrees with your point of view instead of telling them why and point out their errors you tell people to "go get some 1v1 experience". You have no idea about my combat experience, much like you know **** all about anyone else in this thread.
Quote:
So what your saying is on top of the 4 mil sp ive spent on lasers I now need to get 'Drones' to do any damage at all? I dont remember Caldari having to train for 2 weapon systems to win a fight.
Lousy excuse. Period. And Amarr has very few drone ships and the ones that have hold big enough are already gun platforms. So now we need to train for Drones on our Omens to be 'effective'?
Welcome to how everyone else has to play the game. We all have to train drones. 4 million skillpoints in gunnery is nothing. More and more of us are being forced to train missiles. I can understand bypassing the missile skills as you have so few launcher points (and nos is generally more effective - same reason why I use them on my minny ships instead of launchers) but if you're honestly refusing to train drones then you deserve to get blown up.
The Amarrian players seem to be sitting in this hazy bubble where they think all you should need are good laser skills to compete. Wrong, wrong wrong. Get a reality check, learn how the other races play and then come back with a better understanding of the game.
Edit: As for caldari missile ships not needing drones, seeing as torps and crusier do F/A damage to frigates and limited damage to cruisers, they damn well better be training drones.
Adapt, train or die.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.06.23 23:03:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Grimpak on 23/06/2006 23:04:34
forums are realy ****** up these days
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Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari
What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.06.23 23:04:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion
Originally by: Sarmaul
And no you don't need higher thermal damage crystals or explosive/kinetic ones either - use your drone bay and missile points ffs.
Yeah, my armageddon and apoc will pwn if I use those.
Oh wait, only apoc has missile slot but it wont matter for the outcome when 1vs1. Id really wish you would get some 1st hand experience Sauroman. It would be so much easier to take you seriously
Sarmaul just gave you numbers and cold hard facts. Counter his statement with the same weapons and people will start to see you more seriously. Untill then you look more and more like a refined whiner with replies like that.
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Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari
What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Imperial Coercion
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Posted - 2006.06.23 23:10:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Are you honestly complaining about having to train more than just lasers and armour tank
I fly Amarr, Caldari and Minmatar.
Thanks.
Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!. |
Imperial Coercion
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Posted - 2006.06.23 23:11:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Grimpak
e]
Sarmaul just gave you numbers and cold hard facts. Counter his statement with the same weapons and people will start to see you more seriously. Untill then you look more and more like a refined whiner with replies like that.
lol x100
Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!. |
Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.06.23 23:14:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion
Originally by: Grimpak
e]
Sarmaul just gave you numbers and cold hard facts. Counter his statement with the same weapons and people will start to see you more seriously. Untill then you look more and more like a refined whiner with replies like that.
lol x100
I meant "put up or shut up" in case you didn't understand.
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Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari
What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Andreask14
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Posted - 2006.06.23 23:17:00 -
[196]
Edited by: Andreask14 on 23/06/2006 23:22:24
You ppl must be kidding me, saying that its justified that the laser-ships of the amarr are sucking quite bad right now, and that i should adapt by training more.
Isnt it ok, that i want to fly competitive t1 ships with lasers? No?
K.
On the other hand, it was stated that the ships do equal damage, thanks to equal DPS on one side of the equation and a dozen meaningless factors that cancel eachother out, on the other side, effectively negating racial differences.
So why do the amarr need to fit additional RCUs then, and get to eat their own tank up, if they do equal DPS now ?
IN CONCLUSION
What you have said is, that specialisation kills you.
Didnt know that, but now that you mentioned it, it seems obvious, and its a nasty side-effect of balance.
Instead of actually creating niches, it came to be that you have to be a jack of all trades to be competitive.
Very strange indeed, and partly a reason for the whines, scince I know that I really miss the outrageous damage of the amarr.
________________________________________________
Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are. |
korrey
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Posted - 2006.06.23 23:30:00 -
[197]
Edited by: korrey on 23/06/2006 23:31:13
An Omen with 2 heavy pulse lasers and 2 Focused Medium pulse lasers and 2 heat sinks does less than 139dps (Yes to fit ANYTHING at all youve got to mix heavies with meds) . Some great 'Raw DPS' ships amarr have. Instead a moa with also a formidable tank does more. And its not even supposed to be a damage dealing ship.
A maller with 4x Fouced medium pulse lasers does jack dps. And its tank can be overrun by any well setup ship.
A thorax with an 800mm plate and blasters? It can outtank a Maller THEN kill it with raw damage. Amazing how our Tier 2 Cruiser gets raped by any other races Tier 2 cruiser.
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Alzion
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Posted - 2006.06.23 23:36:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Weirda
Originally by: korrey
Alright ill get my friend and we'll await your amazing setup. Then test it against a real ship, as im sure you use it to fight of rats fairly well.
weirda is a pvp pilot. period. ask around, just because Weirda doesn't call anyone who doesn't pvp 23/7 a muppet doesn't mean you should go talking like that. geesh, wish some curse pilot (enemies) would jump in here and at least speak to that...
As a fellow PvP pilot and a Amarr/Gallente specialist I have to say that your claim is utterly ubserd.
I'll get on test server later and test out a pure gank omen setup, but I don't think i'll get 400 dps or be able to do anything besides fire my guns.
---------------------------------------------
I hear Linux can cure cancer and raise your sperm count. - Dionysus Davinci
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CardboardSword42
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Posted - 2006.06.23 23:53:00 -
[199]
Edited by: CardboardSword42 on 23/06/2006 23:53:18
Originally by: korrey
Edited by: korrey on 23/06/2006 23:31:13
An Omen with 2 heavy pulse lasers and 2 Focused Medium pulse lasers and 2 heat sinks does less than 139dps (Yes to fit ANYTHING at all youve got to mix heavies with meds) . Some great 'Raw DPS' ships amarr have. Instead a moa with also a formidable tank does more. And its not even supposed to be a damage dealing ship.
A maller with 4x Fouced medium pulse lasers does jack dps. And its tank can be overrun by any well setup ship.
A thorax with an 800mm plate and blasters? It can outtank a Maller THEN kill it with raw damage. Amazing how our Tier 2 Cruiser gets raped by any other races Tier 2 cruiser.
1) 1 Heavy Pulse with 2 heat sinks on an Omen and Congflag does 92 DPS, and a Medium does 80 DPS. With 2 Heavy Pulses and 2 Medium Pulses that is 344 Damage.
Hahahaha at the Moa. The moa has complete and utter **** for DPS. It gets no damage bonus, and hybrids don't have a built in damage bonus like lasers do. Also the Moa doesn't get a formidable tank going with only 4 meds. The moa and the maller are both tier 3 cruiesers. Neither gets a damage bonus. The maller has 5 turret slots to which it does get a bonus, the moa has 4. Laser turrets have a built in damage mod, hybrids don't. The moa only has 4 slots to tank the shields it gets a bonus to. The maller has 6 lows to make use of its bonus to armor resist.
A thorax is not going to outtank a maller. Maller has better cap, it has 6 lows to tank with and it gets a bonus to armor resists.
I'm Ex-Biomass, that makes me cool
But now I'm KOS and it's all about the manlove
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O'Sirius
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Posted - 2006.06.23 23:55:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion
Oh wait, only apoc has missile slot but it wont matter for the outcome when 1vs1.
Where do you find these 1vs1 battles you keep referring to?
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CardboardSword42
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Posted - 2006.06.24 00:00:00 -
[201]
Originally by: korrey
Originally by: Sarmaul
And no you don't need higher thermal damage crystals or explosive/kinetic ones either - use your drone bay and missile points ffs.
So what your saying is on top of the 4 mil sp ive spent on lasers I now need to get 'Drones' to do any damage at all? I dont remember Caldari having to train for 2 weapon systems to win a fight.
Lousy excuse. Period. And Amarr has very few drone ships and the ones that have hold big enough are already gun platforms. So now we need to train for Drones on our Omens to be 'effective'?
Hybrids are locked to kinetic and thermal damage. Should we allow hybrids to change damage types as well because some guys have trained 4 million skillpoints in Hybrids?
Also as a caldari pilot you have to train both missiles and hybrids or you can only use about 1/2 of the caldari line of ships.
You have the drone bays already on your ships, use them
I'm Ex-Biomass, that makes me cool
But now I'm KOS and it's all about the manlove
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Kyguard
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Posted - 2006.06.24 00:04:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Adapt, train or die.
Should be quite easy for you to say now that minmatar are getting the boosts. It's obvious you don't fly amarr or even if you do, you enjoy minnie more or something. I should have told you that when you were whining about minmatar.
===
God is on the side with the best arti |
CardboardSword42
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Posted - 2006.06.24 00:23:00 -
[203]
What would you guys think of adding a middle class of weapons?
There are electron, ion and neutron blasters
A thorax can't even fit 5 neutron blaster IIs without a reactor control, but it can go 'gank' and fit a rack of ions and a mwd
Autocannons have dual 180s, 220s, and 425s
Pulse lasers have Medium Pulses and Heavy Pulses
Omen needs a RCU like the Thorax to fit a rack of Heavy Pulses as well as a MWD. This is in line as it is the highest tier of the medium pulses. However it doesn't have the option of ion blasters as there is no laser equivalent.
Add a middle class and that should fix things up I think
Thoughts?
I'm Ex-Biomass, that makes me cool
But now I'm KOS and it's all about the manlove
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Karazaan
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Posted - 2006.06.24 00:28:00 -
[204]
Originally by: korrey
This thread is for the Devs only. If none answer the oh well, I guess back to Battlefield 2 or World of Warcraft. This thread is also not another Amarr complaint thread. If thats what it turns into then Ill delete it.
[...]
I can see, whether it bee Customer support or just game developement...Eve is not the game for me. Its fun but things that need fixing most just arent getting done.
If I were you, I would avoid WoW for a few days unless you want to ban another game from your personnal list.
WoW patch adds and breaks features |
Imperial Coercion
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Posted - 2006.06.24 00:42:00 -
[205]
Originally by: O'Sirius
Where do you find these 1vs1 battles you keep referring to?
Rarer than ever.
Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!. |
Alzion
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Posted - 2006.06.24 01:02:00 -
[206]
Looks like im getting 297 dps with a full gank setup omen using top level named mods.
The Omen was crap when I tested it before and its still crap.
A thorax can outdamage a gank Omen setup with electron blasters. There is no contest.
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I hear Linux can cure cancer and raise your sperm count. - Dionysus Davinci
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Weirda
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Posted - 2006.06.24 01:51:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Alzion
Looks like im getting 297 dps with a full gank setup omen using top level named mods.
The Omen was crap when I tested it before and its still crap.
A thorax can outdamage a gank Omen setup with electron blasters. There is no contest.
now throw t2 + conflagration drones and ml on there and you will have about 400. that is pretty damn impressive for named mods tbh.
do you have cruiser V? medium weapon V? weapon spec III? if so, you will get ~400dps with focused medium pulse II and very light tank in low.
sheesh. weirda was lucky to pull 100dps with the rupture back in the day...
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Weirda
Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More! |
Alzion
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Posted - 2006.06.24 02:36:00 -
[208]
Sorry Weirda, I was under the impression that you were using T1 since you mentioned that your skills weren't maxed.
But, this does bring up another question. If you were quoting a gank setup, why did you say that it would have a better tank than a thorax doing that damage? You can fit a plate and repper while doing over 400 dps with a rax.
In the end it dosen't change the fact that omen and maller can't compete with thorax/rupture/vexor/caracal.
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I hear Linux can cure cancer and raise your sperm count. - Dionysus Davinci
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Weirda
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Posted - 2006.06.24 03:03:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Alzion
Sorry Weirda, I was under the impression that you were using T1 since you mentioned that your skills weren't maxed.
But, this does bring up another question. If you were quoting a gank setup, why did you say that it would have a better tank than a thorax doing that damage? You can fit a plate and repper while doing over 400 dps with a rax.
In the end it dosen't change the fact that omen and maller can't compete with thorax/rupture/vexor/caracal.
no surgical string V and no spec V (or even IV) - when you spec minmatar and amarr you don't have time for that extra 7% dmg unfortunately (especially if you a ship junkee) 
weirda have melted all those ships (with competent pilot no less) in omen as well... unfortunately certain *cough* pirate alliances don't post their losses too often... and weirda killboard is private.
a 2 slot tank (medium repper) with cap injector eats that thorax. caracal tend to do bad enough dmg to matter and that leave the rupture, which is probably it toughest opponent. dont' fly gallente trash - but under the impression that it not gonna have an easy time fitting much in its lows with a decent gank blaster setup... have read small rep from place to place, and dmg mod/ean2 from here to there. bottom line is that you are going to be doing 200dps to their armor and through it in 10-15 sec which is hardly time for rep cycle.
either way - shoot weirda evemail on tq... will fight. if you use ECM/Amarr specific hardener that fine, but just prove the point that you don't think you can beat it without setting up for it.
honor is everything 
you sig rocks btw - funny stuff 
__
Weirda
Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More! |
Alzion
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Posted - 2006.06.24 03:50:00 -
[210]
Edited by: Alzion on 24/06/2006 03:54:53
Could you post or mail me the setup your talking about?
Im having a tough time figuring out how that will beat a thorax.
Quote:
you sig rocks btw - funny stuff
thanks, linux fanboys go overboard alot 
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I hear Linux can cure cancer and raise your sperm count. - Dionysus Davinci
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