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Why jamming sentries is a bad idea and could be exploited... (example 0.4 sec space)

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Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.02 03:40:00 - [1] Edited by: Drutort on 02/10/2003 06:10:48 My concern about this hole issue with Jamming sentries is, that the DevÆs GMÆs might have over looked something. Simple analogy as to how the AI in EVE is working and why its flawed. After you read this you can relate to EVE. ôbad guyö is pirate ôcopö is sentry gun, or concord ship etc.. ôhostageö is jamming There is a bad guy (pirate) he takes hostage a cop (jams a sentry gun, or concord ship) The only way for you to rescue the cop is to attack the bad guyà fine you do so, the cop is then free, but instead of firing at the bad guy the cop fires at you!! Now you would say what hell is wrong with that picture? Well I tell you thatÆs how the game works in EVE!! Exampleà Pirate with -2sec jams the sentry guns, you attack the pirate so that the sentry guns are not jammed, you then get attacked by the sentry guns, because the -2sec pirate is not KOS, so now you got the pirate attacking you and the PIRATE is able to defend him self. THAT IS STUPID. The AI, should have threat priority or simply to say, it should have priority who to kill first, and it should always retaliate or kill the person that attacks it, that would be jamming or firing up on. In this game you canÆt really help out the cops in anyway, attacking someone who is not -5sec will make you the most wanted and on the high priority list to kill, and all other older aggressions are forgotten. This in essence means that pirates can use the sentry guns to there advantageà the pirate that is not jamming the sentry guns, can freely attack you, and you cant attack the ones that are jamming because if you do the jamming is broken and the latest aggression is YOU, and the pirates donÆt even have to kill you the mass 200-500dmg every 2sec sentry guns will blow you up. =========( update )============ ppl still dont get it do they? once you jam that pirate that was jamming the sentry guns, the sentry guns always attack the current threat/aggression the FACT that the pirates were jamming the sentry guns is the old aggression... I would think that the sentry guns would need a priority KOS!!! hehe that is kill those that are first a threat or were a threat to YOU, then deal with PC vs PC or PC vs NPC aggression... the sentry guns should always have the first pri of self defending... I do not think this was coded into the game and now it can be exploited as i said above. It is an exploit, the pirates gain the fire power of the sentnry guns, why? because if you attack the pirates that are jamming the sentry guns they, unjam the sentry guns and they sentry guns BLOW YOU AWAY... and if they do not attack you first there 3rd FRIEND WILL ATTACK YOU EITHER WAY YOU LOSE!! support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.02 03:43:00 - [2] I think this shows also the weakness in the hole PvP system... and the problems that the limitations or the current state that could lead to... I really dont see how this could be fixed easy by CCP... unless they change the hole thing with the aggression. NOTE im not saying that jamming sentry guns is an exploit or that anyone is ATT, but with the above you could see probably that it can be exploited. as far as goes that a person who is freeing a sentry from being jammed would be attacked... which just shows the weakness of this game... BTW at the time i dont see how you can boost a sentries strength from long range... i dont see how unless i must be missing something. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Lola	Posted - 2003.10.02 03:49:00 - [3] The act of using ECM on the sentry guns would cause it to hostile the pirates even if the guns couldn't fire. So whenever the jamming stopped the original pirates would be fired upon. Also the bounty hunter/vigilanty types would be silly to fire upon anyone who hasn't fired on them if they were within sentry gun range. ----------------------------------------- Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 03:52:00 - [4] Quote: ... I have yet to prove this theory, but its only on paper, but I think if the game mechanics work like they do now, this can be exploited and I think is a current exploit. ... Please do try your theory. Quote: Empire owned sentry guns are now none-jammable. It's only people guessing that the guns are jammed and doing nothing. As I said before, a person in the middle of getting shot/webified/warp scrambled is not the most reliable witness. They tend to be kinda distracted at the time. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
NymphoGrrrl	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:03:00 - [5] It is being exploited right now, friend was killed while Space Invaders sat next to the sentry guns in 0.4 sec space, Aurohunen system. They laughed and when asked why they are using an exploit, said "because we can". Lame, very lame, hope the whole corp is removed like the ebayers were.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:14:00 - [6] Quote: It is being exploited right now, friend was killed while Space Invaders sat next to the sentry guns in 0.4 sec space, Aurohunen system. They laughed and when asked why they are using an exploit, said "because we can". Lame, very lame, hope the whole corp is removed like the ebayers were. The word "Sucker" comes to mind. But do continue to fall for it. It's been reported to the GMs who said what they're doing isn't an exploit. For a change TomB has heard of it and Quote: [ 2003.10.01 22:53:46 ] Roulette > can we get a straight answer on what is or is not considered an exploit? for example, players have come across "pirates" with -10 security camping gates in empire space 0.1-0.4 which don't get attacked by sentry guns, and whom you can't attack without getting blown away by sentry guns. Is this an exploit, and if not, how are players supposed to deal with these sort of "pirates"? And if something is an exploit, can someone please tell all the GMs? half the time it seems that the GMs can't even agree on these sort of things, so you get conflicting results when petitioning. [ 2003.10.01 22:55:23 ] TomB > I have never seen this case with my own eyes, I've heared about it a few times but I have never seen a proof of this happening [ 2003.10.01 22:55:56 ] TomB > And I have never been able to reproduce this situation Emphasis added to make it a bit clearer. So maybe...just maybe...juuuuuuuuuust maybe what you think is happening isn't really happening? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
AnyDayNow	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:17:00 - [7] its obvioulsy possible those people who shoot at pirates 1st die if sentries are unjammed those are get shot at by pirates die becuase the guns will be jammed
Cao Cao	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:21:00 - [8] Drutort, Before you run to the forums with your wild hypotheses why don't you try to go and test out your theories? Sentry guns attack the FIRST aggressor not the last aggressor. Thus if the jam is broken on the sentry guns the person that would be toasted is the ones who were jamming them in the first place. Believe me, I've learned this the hard way.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:21:00 - [9] Quote: its obvioulsy possible those people who shoot at pirates 1st die if sentries are unjammed those are get shot at by pirates die becuase the guns will be jammed And if the guns are already attacking one of the pirates? It's an exploit if the pirate refuses to go boom? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Viceroy	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:22:00 - [10] Quote: It is being exploited right now, friend was killed while Space Invaders sat next to the sentry guns in 0.4 sec space, Aurohunen system. They laughed and when asked why they are using an exploit, said "because we can". Lame, very lame, hope the whole corp is removed like the ebayers were. haha, you should get your facts straight. GMs know what we're doing and they've told us that this is no exploit, its totally legimate. It has nothing to do with ANY possible exploit of game mechanics or anything else. So pls dont come here accusing us of exploiting when we're not. -
NymphoGrrrl	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:28:00 - [11] Quote: Quote: It is being exploited right now, friend was killed while Space Invaders sat next to the sentry guns in 0.4 sec space, Aurohunen system. They laughed and when asked why they are using an exploit, said "because we can". Lame, very lame, hope the whole corp is removed like the ebayers were. The word "Sucker" comes to mind. But do continue to fall for it. It's been reported to the GMs who said what they're doing isn't an exploit. For a change TomB has heard of it and Quote: [ 2003.10.01 22:53:46 ] Roulette > can we get a straight answer on what is or is not considered an exploit? for example, players have come across "pirates" with -10 security camping gates in empire space 0.1-0.4 which don't get attacked by sentry guns, and whom you can't attack without getting blown away by sentry guns. Is this an exploit, and if not, how are players supposed to deal with these sort of "pirates"? And if something is an exploit, can someone please tell all the GMs? half the time it seems that the GMs can't even agree on these sort of things, so you get conflicting results when petitioning. [ 2003.10.01 22:55:23 ] TomB > I have never seen this case with my own eyes, I've heared about it a few times but I have never seen a proof of this happening [ 2003.10.01 22:55:56 ] TomB > And I have never been able to reproduce this situation Emphasis added to make it a bit clearer. So maybe...just maybe...juuuuuuuuuust maybe what you think is happening isn't really happening? As with many expoits of the past, the GM's won't admit to them, until they have clearance from CCP, usualy after the exploit is patched, and acknowledged as one, which is too late in this case now, he cancled both his accounts. He was tired of the griefers ruining what is a game with potential. And "GM's that won't enforce the rules, or take a stance against exploiters". He has a right to both his opinion, and to keep his money out of CCP's bank account.
Viceroy	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:32:00 - [12] I dont care if your friend quit the game, but you cant accuse us of exploiting when we arent. None of the game mechanics are being abused, no loophole is being used, no bug, not even the smallest bug is being exploited. So for all i care your friend can cancel all his accounts, no problem with us, but dont come here screaming sploit sploit! when its not the case. -
NymphoGrrrl	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:43:00 - [13] Quote: I dont care if your friend quit the game, but you cant accuse us of exploiting when we arent. None of the game mechanics are being abused, no loophole is being used, no bug, not even the smallest bug is being exploited. So for all i care your friend can cancel all his accounts, no problem with us, but dont come here screaming sploit sploit! when its not the case. ...or what Mr Exploiter, or what??? You going to make a few more empty threats??? You griefers are all the same, blame the bug/loophole, in the games mechanics, make up a new excuse little boy. Time will show the truth, and as with all the past exploits, they will be acknowledged, although to late to keep those lost accounts paying.
Viceroy	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:49:00 - [14] Ok i see that you just want to flame, well flame on... by yourself And I think there is forum moderation against those who accuse people of cheating/exploiting without ANY basis what so ever. But for all of the people out there that actually want to know (not flame): we arent exploiting, its pretty obvious that we arent but just to give some people what they want we've asked the GMs and they have confirmed that this has NOTHING to do with exploiting. Its actually a pretty simple (although risky) tactic. Forgive us for discovering it -
Intruders	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:54:00 - [15] Hmm..NymphoGrrrrl I found your name offending, I think I pettition a harasment for them to remove it..Hows that now? Every man lives..but not every man dies! My sig sux
NymphoGrrrl	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:55:00 - [16] Quote: Ok i see that you just want to flame, well flame on... by yourself And I think there is forum moderation against those who accuse people of cheating/exploiting without ANY basis what so ever. But for all of the people out there that actually want to know (not flame): we arent exploiting, its pretty obvious that we arent but just to give some people what they want we've asked the GMs and they have confirmed that this has NOTHING to do with exploiting. Its actually a pretty simple (although risky) tactic. Forgive us for discovering it Th essence of an exploit, is to find a means to take advantage of the games mechanics. No one said it was easy, or un-risky to do, yet it is still an exploit if it was not DESIGNED to be done , i.e. a bug/loophole.
NymphoGrrrl	Posted - 2003.10.02 04:56:00 - [17] Quote: Hmm..NymphoGrrrrl I found your name offending, I think I pettition a harasment for them to remove it..Hows that now? grow up little boy, grow up
Intruders	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:00:00 - [18] Yeah, I have a kid sister that gaze some time over my shoulder while I sit on the pc, I dont want her to know from this early age what a nymphomaniac is, mind you? I just want HER to grow up..right. So I guess a pettition should be legit. Take care. Every man lives..but not every man dies! My sig sux
Van Feneal	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:04:00 - [19] All of you Space Invaders are cheap a$$holes. You dont deserve to play this game. I was caught in your cheap trap in Aurohunen earlier. You all should find a better way too waste your time and not ruin the game for the rest of us.
J3tt	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:05:00 - [20] Edited by: J3tt on 02/10/2003 05:05:56 jesus tapdancing christ you people cry exploit like little ***s...nothing can happen fair and square...you just cry exploit and go ***ing all the time...pay the toll and you are free to go...PWNT ----------------------------------------- Can your pod outrun a cruise missle?
Veruna Caseti	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:05:00 - [21] They ruined the game?! runs to check on game Nope, still going strong. Veruna Caseti Ishukone
Intruders	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:14:00 - [22] Quote: a$$holes I personaly will propose to remove your main character instead of your alt from these forums. I cant see people who cant stand the heat from a little online game and instead of dealing with it in game, in a forum where other people who dont actually participate to this may be reading, people who break all hell lose on the forums making it hard for everyone who havent moved to another game like so many others to keep whatever little fun is left. If I was to enter EVE now I would not do it, if I was witness of the attitude of such people. So immature so childish, accusing everyone else, when themselves break every rule of descent behavior for absolutely no reason. Its not a reason to be impolite when you losing in a game. I think its about time the GM's do something! Every man lives..but not every man dies! My sig sux
NymphoGrrrl	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:15:00 - [23] Quote: Yeah, I have a kid sister that gaze some time over my shoulder while I sit on the pc, I dont want her to know from this early age what a nymphomaniac is, mind you? I just want HER to grow up..right. So I guess a pettition should be legit. Take care. Well darling, best look at all the players with the nympho in their name, now go ask mommy for a new pacifier. (little boys will be little boys)
Intruders	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:16:00 - [24] I suppose Veruna you re happy with what these forums have become. Im not and I will not continue to support this farse with my money. Every man lives..but not every man dies! My sig sux
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:20:00 - [25] you guys are not getting my point... I am saying the sentry guns are gammed by say -2sec pirates... you go and jam the -2sec pirate... the sentry guns are free to fire at whoever... the question is WHO will they fire on?? obviously it seems that they would fire AT YOU, because you attacked the -2sec players and that was the last aggression not that the pirates were jamming the sentry GUNS!!! this is what im getting at... im saying you try to unjam the sentry guns by jamming the original jammers BUT in RETURN YOU GET FIRED UP ON!! if they are not -5sec in which case this can be done and they could be there for long time etc... support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Intruders	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:20:00 - [26] You are the real grifers, you grief on other people patience and good manners. Will see who gets the pacifier or the stfu from the forums. Out. Every man lives..but not every man dies! My sig sux
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:24:00 - [27] I dont care that the pirates can jam the sentry guns... what im saying IS that when you jam the -2sec pirate you will be attacked by the sentry guns!! as they are FREE, and then the -2sec pirates can attack you as you started the agression!! get it? i would be perfectly fine with them jamming the sentry guns SO LONG AS I COULD STOP THEM, and not get smacked by the sentry guns i was trying to unjam so to speak!! it is a win win situation for hte pirates and a lose lose situation for you!! you would have to then JAM the sentry guns your self and fight the pirates at SAME TIME!! while the pirates would be free to run or jam you!! its really lame thats all... some kind of system that would say who cares if you attack the player that was jamming the sentry guns... the sentry guns should have HIGHER priority KILL, and that would be the PIRATES that JAMMED THEM FIRST not the agression that HAPPEND WITH you JAMING the PIRATE!!! support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:32:00 - [28] Quote: Quote: Ok i see that you just want to flame, well flame on... by yourself And I think there is forum moderation against those who accuse people of cheating/exploiting without ANY basis what so ever. But for all of the people out there that actually want to know (not flame): we arent exploiting, its pretty obvious that we arent but just to give some people what they want we've asked the GMs and they have confirmed that this has NOTHING to do with exploiting. Its actually a pretty simple (although risky) tactic. Forgive us for discovering it Th essence of an exploit, is to find a means to take advantage of the games mechanics. No one said it was easy, or un-risky to do, yet it is still an exploit if it was not DESIGNED to be done , i.e. a bug/loophole. You are assuming that what they are doing is not designed to be done. I just visited this blockade (Gotta be faster to get my pod though guys...) and if they are doing what I'm 95% sure they are doing, it is 100% LEGAL AND WELL WITHIN THE DESIGN OF THE GAME. "The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously." -Freidrich Nietzche
cball	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:34:00 - [29] Quote: I dont care that the pirates can jam the sentry guns... what im saying IS that when you jam the -2sec pirate you will be attacked by the sentry guns!! as they are FREE, and then the -2sec pirates can attack you as you started the agression!! get it? i would be perfectly fine with them jamming the sentry guns SO LONG AS I COULD STOP THEM, and not get smacked by the sentry guns i was trying to unjam so to speak!! it is a win win situation for hte pirates and a lose lose situation for you!! you would have to then JAM the sentry guns your self and fight the pirates at SAME TIME!! while the pirates would be free to run or jam you!! its really lame thats all... some kind of system that would say who cares if you attack the player that was jamming the sentry guns... the sentry guns should have HIGHER priority KILL, and that would be the PIRATES that JAMMED THEM FIRST not the agression that HAPPEND WITH you JAMING the PIRATE!!! Has all the elements of a MISTAKE in the design and intent of the usage. Has CCP said anything offical on this? ...fear the evil monkey in your hanger...
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:36:00 - [30] read the main thread again, i have an updated section, maybe that clears some stuff up... im not talking about that jamming sentry guns is exploit!! that IS NOT, its how the aggression system WORKs!! that can be exploited!! it has to do with how the sentry guns respond to new/old aggression!! if you read it well you will get what im trying to say support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
J3tt	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:42:00 - [31] no drutort you are just a retard...think harder ----------------------------------------- Can your pod outrun a cruise missle?
Cao Cao	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:46:00 - [32] Drutort don't attack someone with -2.0 if you don't want to be attacked by sentry guns. Fool. Also note that sentry guns attack the first aggressor, not the last aggressor. Go test these things out before you come whining about it on the forums.
iconoclast	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:51:00 - [33] well i got blowed up last night in aurohenen, and me corp mate got shot there tonight. and we sure didnt quit the game because of it. in fact, thats just plain stupid and weak. as in "whiney little crybaby weak". my corp mate even lost 16K of skill points. but and all he had to say was the buggers that got him all had really dumb names... why dont you tell your friend to grow a spine and come back and join up with a bounty hunting squad? build up the allies and skills needed to go after SI one day? one brick at a time. the more they pod, the more recruits they will generate for such an undertaking. your friend took the stroll down washout lane. as always, its a choice everyone gets to make for themselves.
Van Feneal	Posted - 2003.10.02 05:53:00 - [34] I like your idea Iconoclast. That is now my goal in this game.
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:05:00 - [35] "it has to do with how the sentry guns respond to new/old aggression!! if you read it well you will get what im trying to say" ... Mr.Drutort, like Cao already said, NPC have some sort of "first in, first out" aggression queue. Meaning, each of them attacks the targets in order they were registered in the sentry/police vessel memory. (it gets a bit tricky with respawns but that's another story) So bottom line is, you really don't need to worry about any possible exploit here. :s
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:08:00 - [36] Quote: "it has to do with how the sentry guns respond to new/old aggression!! if you read it well you will get what im trying to say" ... Mr.Drutort, like Cao already said, NPC have some sort of "first in, first out" aggression queue. Meaning, each of them attacks the targets in order they were registered in the sentry/police vessel memory. (it gets a bit tricky with respawns but that's another story) So bottom line is, you really don't need to worry about any possible exploit here. :s yes no exploit, only the fact that you cant attack those that are jamming the sentry guns, cause all the pirates would have to do is break there jamming and the sentry guns w aste you!! wow that means that 2 bb's can have 200-500dmg/2sec of fire power on there side AND YOU CANT DO JACK ABOUT IT LOL HEY PPL NO EXPLOIT HERE< it was meant to be that way!!! support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:14:00 - [37] Edited by: j0sephine on 02/10/2003 06:15:01 "yes no exploit, only the fact that you cant attack those that are jamming the sentry guns, cause all the pirates would have to do is break there jamming and the sentry guns w aste you!!" ... No, 'tis incorrect. You are forgetting that jamming itself is offensive action, meaning those who jam the guns are registered as first targets in the sentries' queue. So if the guns became unjammed, they would attack their original target i.e. those who'd jammed them in the first place. And it's all presuming the sentries can be jammed at all, which is quite unlikely given the patch notes and the GMs not finding anything wrong in SI tactics...
NymphoGrrrl	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:18:00 - [38] Quote: "it has to do with how the sentry guns respond to new/old aggression!! if you read it well you will get what im trying to say" ... Mr.Drutort, like Cao already said, NPC have some sort of "first in, first out" aggression queue. Meaning, each of them attacks the targets in order they were registered in the sentry/police vessel memory. (it gets a bit tricky with respawns but that's another story) So bottom line is, you really don't need to worry about any possible exploit here. :s If they are in empire space (0.4 still counts for sec-hits), and they pk, how can they leave( systems all around are 0.5 and up, so concord would object)? Maybe a few dozen cruisers could show up with torpedoes and take out those that are jamming the sentry guns, then see how SI does without them. Those cruisers should be 'disposable' ones, since they would be blown up for killing in empire space. I have to wonder now as the original poster did. I can't see how the non-pirates can take out the pirates here, without losing thier ships to concord....is this a design intention, or another "oops" on CCP's part?
Cao Cao	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:19:00 - [39] Drutort, Do you even bother to read what other people post? I've replied to both of your threads saying that THE FIRST PEOPLE TO BE WASTED BY SENTRIES IF LOCK IS BROKEN ARE THE PEOPLE JAMMING THEM. So while your so-called pirates are being blown to bits you can make a quick getaway.
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:20:00 - [40] Quote: Edited by: j0sephine on 02/10/2003 06:15:01 "yes no exploit, only the fact that you cant attack those that are jamming the sentry guns, cause all the pirates would have to do is break there jamming and the sentry guns w aste you!!" ... No, 'tis incorrect. You are forgetting that jamming itself is offensive action, meaning those who jam the guns are registered as first targets in the sentries' queue. So if the guns became unjammed, they would attack their original target i.e. those who'd jammed them in the first place. LOL HOW IS THE JAMMING BROKEN??? TELL ME?? WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD THE PIRATES BRAKE THE JAMMING IF YOU DIDNT ATTACK THEM?? ONCE YOU ATTACK THEM THEY LET IT GO... and YOUR LAST AGGRESSION IS WHAT THE SENTRY GUNS WILL FALLOW NOT THE JAMMING jeez get it r ight!! and yes sentry guns can be jammed thats what many ppl are saying it takes just more jamming but it works again HENCE why i said the hole thread name why its a BAD IDEA for them be able to be jammed in the first place BECAUSE OF HOW THE AGGRESSION SYSTEM WORKS!! support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:33:00 - [41] "ONCE YOU ATTACK THEM THEY LET IT GO... and YOUR LAST AGGRESSION IS WHAT THE SENTRY GUNS WILL FALLOW NOT THE JAMMING" ... OK, is it now your guess, or have you actually experienced the sentries to act like that? Am asking because 'tis exactly opposite to my own (and bit painful =) experience with the NPC AI, so would be nice to know if it deserves some further testing...
Supe	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:36:00 - [42] How is it a flaw you attacked a -2 sec rating player and that is a higher level offence then jamming a sentry gun. Bottem line is you attacked a player you shouldn't have.
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:38:00 - [43] Quote: "ONCE YOU ATTACK THEM THEY LET IT GO... and YOUR LAST AGGRESSION IS WHAT THE SENTRY GUNS WILL FALLOW NOT THE JAMMING" ... OK, is it now your guess, or have you actually experienced the sentries to act like that? Am asking because 'tis exactly opposite to my own (and bit painful =) experience with the NPC AI, so would be nice to know if it deserves some further testing... it has to be so if the AI works on first in last out or whatever, meaning that first aggression is going to be last one and any new aggression gets put first... that means that the jamming was last aggression as your aggression attacking the jamming pirates became first!! and no i dont have the time to test it... if you like go prove me wrong go on chaos i would like to be 100% sure my self but knowing that it hasnt changed and thats how it works, ya i woul be right then support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:40:00 - [44] Quote: How is it a flaw you attacked a -2 sec rating player and that is a higher level offence then jamming a sentry gun. Bottem line is you attacked a player you shouldn't have. why because they use the sentry guns to there advantage... all they need is one other person to do the attacking and the jammer ppl dont have to attack... do you not see that its a WIN WIN for them... and either you try and fight off the guy who is freally to attack you, or you try to attack the ones that are jamming the sentry guns... IF you dont attack the ones that are jamming the sentry guns THEY can still BLOW YOU UP and the sentry GUNS ARE STILL JAMMED... means YOU LOSE ONCE AGAIN... do you see that there is no real ballance here? that they can use the sentry guns to there advantage, which SHOULD NOT BE LOL, READ MY ANALAGY on the first THREAD you see how stupid it is in the game then!! support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:44:00 - [45] "it has to be so if the AI works on first in last out or whatever, meaning that first aggression is going to be last one and any new aggression gets put first... (..) and no i dont have the time to test it... if you like go prove me wrong go on chaos " ... sighs Mr.Drutort, i did test in on Chaos; and to my experience the NPC AI works in the "first in first out" order. (which can be used to one's advantage as well but that's another story) I can't provide any proof (it's easy to get it from Chaos if one's so inclined) but i swear on my dumb red head, i believe this whole thread is moot. :s
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:48:00 - [46] Quote: "it has to be so if the AI works on first in last out or whatever, meaning that first aggression is going to be last one and any new aggression gets put first... (..) and no i dont have the time to test it... if you like go prove me wrong go on chaos " ... sighs Mr.Drutort, i did test in on Chaos; and to my experience the NPC AI works in the "first in first out" order. (which can be used to one's advantage as well but that's another story) I can't provide any proof (it's easy to get it from Chaos if one's so inclined) but i swear on my dumb red head, i believe this whole thread is moot. :s bah im not sure which one it is as in first in first out or first in last out whatever... i explained what i meant... to test this you will need either 1 scorp and a person who warps in to attack the scorp, in which the scorp then breakes the jamming on the sentry... and see will the sentry guns attack that person who is attacking hte scorp or the one who jammed the sentry guns first... support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:48:00 - [47] The discussion is moot because that's not how they are doing it. "The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously." -Freidrich Nietzche
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:54:00 - [48] Depends if the sentries really do attack the first agressor or the last. As it is, all you have to do is fire back when fired upon. I'm sure any decent anti-pirating group will soon turn up and own them. Especially if they have war slots free. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:56:00 - [49] "bah im not sure which one it is as in first in first out or first in last out whatever... i explained what i meant..." Yes, you explained what you meant; and it's not how it actually works. In other words, your theory is wrong. ... Forgive me, but i'll drop this thread now; there's simply nothing i could possibly add to it that'd change your mind...
Veruna Caseti	Posted - 2003.10.02 06:59:00 - [50] There's no need to change Drutort's mind. He's been told flat out by people who were there killing and people who died there that this isn't anywhere close to the method they were using. He is just babbling on now desperately trying not to look foolish. He needs to learn to use less smiley faces in his posts and it wouldn't be like reading a children's book. Veruna Caseti Ishukone
Tank CEO	Posted - 2003.10.02 07:09:00 - [51] Man I can't beleive my eyes. You carebears are never satisfied are you. Sentry guns used to be able to be jammed by 1 jammer, didn't matter which cause the sentries only had 1 sensor strength. Now, they boosted it up to where you need 4 jammers specified to its race to be jammable.. So that means you need a total of 8 jammers... Now, if you take that away, sentry guns are GOD. Lets take a look of the sentries stats.. - 300-400 Damage per shot without accuracy falloff - 60km Range with no accuracy falloff - Spawn rate which is about 20-30 seconds make the sentry guns unstoppable even if u blow them up - Incredible amount of sheilds and armor. Now, you tell me, is making the guns not jammable fair? There has to be a way to kill them and CCP made it so they can be jammable and stopable.. or they would be God and unfair to everyone. Stop your complaining, if you don't like the blockade, get a fleet up and go kill em, stop asking CCP to kill them for you. ---
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.02 07:47:00 - [52] Quote: There's no need to change Drutort's mind. He's been told flat out by people who were there killing and people who died there that this isn't anywhere close to the method they were using. He is just babbling on now desperately trying not to look foolish. He needs to learn to use less smiley faces in his posts and it wouldn't be like reading a children's book. I wasnt talking about those "people" i was talking about this problem in general, and i said that IF and ONLY IF this was true this will be a problem... I will have to go and test it when i have the time on choas. why are you bring the issue up, i didnt say anything about that set of ppl or anything at all.... I SAID IF IT WAS TRUE, it COULD BE USED, and IF COULD BE USED it should be FIXED. I didnt even know that sentry guns were jammable again until ppl told me, so i looked at the situation and saw if the system works as it does then there is a MAJOR problem... this has nothing to do with the pirates that are doing this, nore anything about being a carebear... it was just brought to attention. And still seems that i will have to go and test this my self as im the only one who seems to know what hell im talking about 100% so stop the flaming and the bashing as i didnt even say that this is a fact only IF it worked as i thought it did then it would be a problem... and i didnt talk about any of the specific pirates or incidents. so LAY OFF the pointless replies and add something that has some use support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
NymphoGrrrl	Posted - 2003.10.02 07:48:00 - [53] Quote: Man I can't beleive my eyes. You carebears are never satisfied are you. Sentry guns used to be able to be jammed by 1 jammer, didn't matter which cause the sentries only had 1 sensor strength. Now, they boosted it up to where you need 4 jammers specified to its race to be jammable.. So that means you need a total of 8 jammers... Now, if you take that away, sentry guns are GOD. Lets take a look of the sentries stats.. - 300-400 Damage per shot without accuracy falloff - 60km Range with no accuracy falloff - Spawn rate which is about 20-30 seconds make the sentry guns unstoppable even if u blow them up - Incredible amount of sheilds and armor. Now, you tell me, is making the guns not jammable fair? There has to be a way to kill them and CCP made it so they can be jammable and stopable.. or they would be God and unfair to everyone. Stop your complaining, if you don't like the blockade, get a fleet up and go kill em, stop asking CCP to kill them for you. You missed the point (isn't that a surprise from a known griefer), non pirates firing on the prirates, lose security if they kill, are the first ones the sentry will shoot once the jamming stops. The pirates win no matter how the non-pirates approach this FLAWED mechanic of the game. Where they are, and how they are doing it is the problem. It's a classic "Tank exploiting the mechanics move" for lack of a better term. If the GM's can't see how this is an exploit, or pull their classic move of waiting till it's fixed to call it an exploit, then the Eve population will drindle until they haven't the income to keep the cluster on line. (look at the stats, a steady decline in usage of the game, people are leaving, not returning, and not many of the 30 day trials are sticking around, I wonder why....could it be exploiters, griefers, and the bugs, ohmy----------) This was my 3rd shot at eve to test the waters before I allow CCP to have a dime, and it may never get one---boyfriend is patient, but he too is fed up, and he is a pirate ingame, imagion that, a pirate is tired of the griefers and exploiters ruining the game for all.
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.02 07:52:00 - [54] Quote: Stop your complaining, if you don't like the blockade, get a fleet up and go kill em, stop asking CCP to kill them for you. you hardly read any of my thread as it seems, or you wouldnÆt come posting this crap here at all, notice that my threads are not your avg EVE threads full of nothing but whining and flaming. I was making assumptions and based on those assumptions i presented that IF they were true an thats how it worked then there would be a room for exploit, as in gaining the sentry guns to do the work for you, if you were the one who jammed them. READ STUFF BEFORE POSTING. i dont care to be wrong, because i said so it was a theory and assumption!!! get your head out of your ass, and READ THE THREADS ACTUALLY!! When i get the time ill test it and report it my self... even though seems that it works diff, but until i dont test it i cant be 100% sure cause im the only one who knows what hell keep talking about 100% i would be happy if it worked diff, but im sure there will still be some new issue that i might find support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
McWatt	Posted - 2003.10.02 07:55:00 - [55] stop assumptions. this is f******bull.
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.02 07:56:00 - [56] Quote: I was making assumptions and based on those assumptions i presented that IF they were true an thats how it worked then there would be a room for exploit, as in gaining the sentry guns to do the work for you, if you were the one who jammed them. Your assumptions were incorrect. Quote: READ STUFF BEFORE POSTING. Test stuff before posting. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.02 08:03:00 - [57] Quote: Quote: I was making assumptions and based on those assumptions i presented that IF they were true an thats how it worked then there would be a room for exploit, as in gaining the sentry guns to do the work for you, if you were the one who jammed them. Your assumptions were incorrect. Quote: READ STUFF BEFORE POSTING. Test stuff before posting. yes and you your self say so because how again? you tested this your self of course right? and there is nothing wrong with assuming, once you know how the system works you can apply same rules to other things. Or you cant wait for me to come with the results my self? I dont mean no disrespect to nobody but im not going to take anyoneÆs opinion AS A FACT... and nor do i expect you to take my assumptions without a full test as FACT. it was a discussion and the testing IF there are any will show what really is happening. And instead of ppl trying to prove or disprove with facts ppl just post stupid pointless replies. BTW to those who donÆt care DONÆT POST IN THE THREAD, NOBODY FORCED YOU TO READ OR REPLY support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.02 08:17:00 - [58] Quote: yes and you your self say so because how again? you tested this your self of course right? No, I have not. As you are the starter of the discussion, I'm afraid the burdon of providing proof that the sentry system works like you assume it works, falls on you. It is up to you to test how they work before initiating the discussion. Quote: and there is nothing wrong with assuming, once you know how the system works you can apply same rules to other things. Or you cant wait for me to come with the results my self? Why, yes, no, I can't. Y'see, j0sephine knows it doesn't work like you assumed. If you'd test it yourself, you'd have seen this entire discussion could have been moot . Quote: I dont mean no disrespect to nobody but im not going to take anyone’s opinion AS A FACT... and nor do i expect you to take my assumptions without a full test as FACT. it was a discussion and the testing IF there are any will show what really is happening. And instead of ppl trying to prove or disprove with facts ppl just post stupid pointless replies. BTW to those who don’t care DON’T POST IN THE THREAD, NOBODY FORCED YOU TO READ OR REPLY You'd have to test it for yourself, Drutort. Otherwise, you will never know for sure. Log onto Chaos, get a BugHunter to jam sentries and test out your hypothesis. That will be the only way you'll know for sure. (I'm not entirely sure the sentries can be jammed at all.) [Heterocephalus glaber]
Needo	Posted - 2003.10.02 09:41:00 - [59] So, anyone wanna tell what they are actually doing? A guess: 1) 2-3x dampening 2) gets attacked 3) EM-BB warps away Something like that, or what? ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Zorael	Posted - 2003.10.02 10:01:00 - [60] The only way to effectively jam sentries is to use 4 multispectral ECM devices, which use approx. 30 cap per second and will drain all your cap in a little more than 1 minute on a blackbird (assuming you stuff all your remaining slots with cap power relays and cap rechargers). An apoc with a skilled pilot and the right equipment would last significantly more, but I doubt it can run 4 multispecs forever... So to permanently jam 2 sentries you would have to dedicate at the minimum 2 battleships and several other ships transferring cap to them from time to time. I can't help but think there are other methods - - - Lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part
Lianhaun	Posted - 2003.10.02 10:16:00 - [61] I just want to add that not all the pirates have a positive standing, if you shoot at the ones with -10,0 I doubt the sentries will care. However the rest will care, and we might show it in our own special way. Were not exploiting, surely if it was an exploit we wouldn't have that many people camping one gate now but we'd be camping the entire system. This is not a hijack
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.02 10:30:00 - [62] Sc0rpion knows, j0sephine knows, Discorp knows, Joshua knows (I think), and Veruna knows what we did. Space Invaders know. Any of our victims that were paying the slightest bit of attention know. the only people that seem confused about this issue are people who WEREN'T THERE and haven't got the first idea. Oh, and Nymphogirl is a troll. As for whether Drutorts idea works, I couldn't say, we've never tried it, it sounds like a stupid waste of ships, seeing as how sentries don't work that way, but I'll be pleased to hear if someone does try this. .
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.02 10:49:00 - [63] Sc0rpion knows, j0sephine knows, Discorp knows, Joshua knows (I think), and Veruna knows what we did. ... Like, go me; i've considered so many possible solutions, now am left with knowledge one of them is possibly correct, but not which one. arrrrrr! 'Scuse me while i go and bash my head against the armour of some nearby cruiser.... ;s
Needo	Posted - 2003.10.02 10:52:00 - [64] The public has a right to know! My guess is a few dampeners... ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Zorael	Posted - 2003.10.02 11:18:00 - [65] Quote: The public has a right to know! My guess is a few dampeners... Let there be light - - - Lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part
WhiteDwarf	Posted - 2003.10.02 11:22:00 - [66] "I dont care if your friend quit the game, but you cant accuse us of exploiting when we arent. None of the game mechanics are being abused, no loophole is being used, no bug, not even the smallest bug is being exploited. So for all i care your friend can cancel all his accounts, no problem with us, but dont come here screaming sploit sploit! when its not the case." What you are doing is obviously something CCP "missed". This game has a lot of holes in it, just look's like you guys found another one. And instead of reporting it as a bug, you are exploiting it in typical griefer fashion. The sentries are there for a reason, and it's not to give pirates an advantage. If you step back and look at the situation, I just don't see how any of you think any part of the scenario is "legitimate" Totally laughable... I'm sure CCP will shut you guys down sooner or later. I would like to see all those involved get banned. Banning is probably one of the only true deterants to exploiting in on-line gaming. "Trust No One"
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 11:23:00 - [67] Edited by: Jash Illian on 02/10/2003 11:40:11 Word of Warning: If one more person screams "Fire!" in this crowded theater, I'll burn the frellin thing down myself. Drutort, that's exactly what you're doing: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater (jesus in s sidecar rolling off a hill backwards I wish it was illegal here like it is in real life). Behind you're attempt to distract people with the trapping of theorizing, you're that 10 year old punk in the upper balacony that thinks the results are funny, which few courts where I'm from would convict anyone that beat the crap out of for stupidity of the joke. Nymphogrrrl, you're...you're...bah, you're just WhiteTroll crossdressing. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Shadowthrone	Posted - 2003.10.02 12:01:00 - [68] Edited by: Shadowthrone on 02/10/2003 12:03:00 I dont think they are jamming the sentry guns. A guy called daffyduck in a thorax used identical tactics about 2 weeks ago in aurohunen. He was -2. I was in a megathron. I supected something was amiss and didnt fire back. He told me that some had lost battleships when they fired back to the sentry guns. Im not sure how he did it but he seemed to believe the tactic would only work in aurohunen but i have no clue why. Fair play to pirates for being inventive and coming up with new tactics in using the game mechanics to their advantage. I personally think its something to do with the interaction of ganged members with -5 and normals and sentry guns but im not sure. But its damn unfair until we know how it works. Damn interesting puzzle though. Celes Kill Board "Show them no mercy, for you will receive none"
Trixxy	Posted - 2003.10.02 12:05:00 - [69] Edited by: Trixxy on 02/10/2003 12:07:13 This entire thread is rediculous. Drutort theorises about a possible scenario he hasn't even tested and says how it can be used to exploit... Various over-defensive types come in screaming that they should not be accused of exploiting... Some sensible types calmly point out that in their experience the original situation described is not valid. They have found that the game mechanics do not work that way... In the meantime more people continue throwing insults around and arguing whether they were exploiting or not... SIGH If people actually READ posts instead of skimmed them and made blind assumptions about what they THINK the poster was saying, this thread would have been over in 4 posts instead of the 4 flame-riddled pages it was. Example of how the thread could have gone: Drutort: <Explains hypothesis and how it may be used as to exploit> Sensible answer A: "Do you know this for a fact?" Drutort: (If he's being sensible) "No - I haven't actually tested it - but I've heard it may be possible". Sensible answer B: "I've tested it on chaos - guns attack first aggressor on the gun so it won't work. The exploit can't happen as described." Can't see any room for flaming in there, mon. Yes, I acknowledge that this post is off-topic and that I am indeed flaming myself. But GAWD, SOMEONE has to say it. . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ...and remember - No pain, no pain.
Mynobe Soletae	Posted - 2003.10.02 12:12:00 - [70] Yeah I would also guess that one of them attacks the guns and then mwd's away out of range; guns stay on one target and they don't switch.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 12:14:00 - [71] Quote: Edited by: Trixxy on 02/10/2003 12:06:07 This entire thread is rediculous. Drutort theorises about a possible scenario he hasn't even tested and says how it can be used to exploit... Various over-defensive types come in screaming that they should not be accused of exploiting... Some sensible types calmly point out that the original situation described is not valid as the game mechanics do not work that way... In the meantime more people continue throwing insults around and arguing whether they were exploiting or not... SIGH If people actually READ posts instead of skimmed them and made blind assumptions about what they THINK the poster was saying, this thread would have been over in 4 posts instead of the 4 flame-riddled pages it was. Example of how the thread could have gone: Drutort: <Explains hypothesis and how it may be used as to exploit> Sensible answer A: "Do you know this for a fact?" Drutort: (If he's being sensible) "No - I haven't actually tested it - but I've heard it may be possible". Sensible answer B: "I've tested it on chaos - guns attack first aggressor on the gun so it won't work. The exploit can't happen as described." Can't see any room for flaming in there, mon. Yes, I acknowledge that this post is off-topic and that I am indeed flaming myself. But GAWD, SOMEONE has to say it. Where's that chainsaw o' mine. I see a high horse in need of some trimming. This thread is the results of people like you, yes you Trixxy, running around yelling "Griefer" at the drop of a hat. People like you posting in their 'Holier than Thou' manners keeping the embers lit so a breath or two will ignite the flames yet again. You should be revelling to see the fruits of your labors growing so ripe and juicy. And if you'd bothered to actually read the thread you'd notice the advice given exactly 4 posts in Quote: Please do try your theory I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Trixxy	Posted - 2003.10.02 12:29:00 - [72] Edited by: Trixxy on 02/10/2003 12:32:37 Funny, I was expecting the good ol' Jash to be the first to answer. And how surprising, with nothing constructive and a good few insults thrown in too (again). I see the old brilliant debating skills of Jash have not at all been dimmed by time. (The fact that post 4 happened to be a request to try it out does NOT explain the bulk of the 4 pages of people who where patently NOT properly reading other's posts. So what's your point, other than putting words in my mouth, making assumptions about me you have know way of proving or knowing, and mostly the fact that you don't like me because I had the GALL to disagree with you in previous posts?) Sad. . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ...and remember - No pain, no pain.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 12:36:00 - [73] Quote: Funny, I was expecting the good ol' Jash to be the first to answer. And how surprising, with nothing constructive and a good few insults thrown in too (again). I see the old brilliant debating skills of Jash have not at all been dimmed by time. (The fact that post 4 happened to be a request to try it out does NOT explain the bulk of the 4 pages of people who where patently NOT properly reading other's posts. So what's your point, other than putting words in my mouth, making assumptions about me you have know way of proving or knowing, and mostly the fact that you don't like me?) If I disliked you, the chainsaw would be for you...not the horse. THe point is you reap what you sow. You are just as responsibile for every single flame, riposte and troll in this thread as those that did it. Coming back, seeing your work and wringing your hands in a bad Rodney King impersonation (no, frell it, we can't all just get along while you insist on making accusations without merit or evidence based solely on your judgement) is just flippin annoying. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Trixxy	Posted - 2003.10.02 12:37:00 - [74] This thread is actually becomming even more pointless now Jash, so don't expect an answer from me when you post your next piece of brilliance. Just assume that you're the MAN and that I have no defense against your intractable logic. . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ...and remember - No pain, no pain.
Orochi	Posted - 2003.10.02 12:38:00 - [75] Quote: Yeah I would also guess that one of them attacks the guns and then mwd's away out of range; guns stay on one target and they don't switch. Or perhaps there is a convenient grid boundary close to the gate that allows the original attacker to stay within range of the sentry turrets yet not be attacked. Then when someone fires on the -2 SR player camping the gate, the original aggressor warps away, freeing up the sentry turrets.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 12:40:00 - [76] Edited by: Jash Illian on 02/10/2003 12:56:00 Quote: This thread is actually becomming even more pointless now Jash, so don't expect an answer from me when you post your next piece of brilliance. Just assume that you're the MAN and that I have no defense against your intractable logic. If that's what it takes to get rid of you, a chainsaw and a lot of persistance, Sears Hardware is around the corner. Wait...best explain a bit. If the people that flamed Drutort while remaining somewhere near the topic add nothing, your judgemental attitude which has nothing to do with the topic and everything to do with why he'd post such nonsense in the first place subtracts from the topic. He posted a poorly thought out, untried theory that just happens to relate to a highly discussed incident in the middle of a huge argument concerning griefing and exploiting. What, the flames over there weren't high enough so he needed to spread a little lighter fluid over here? People responded nicely at first and he persisted in posting till people gave up and began the tried and true methods of killing the undead (blunt force trauma and a lot of fire). And ooo, look. Here you come made up for the 6 o'clock news, lamenting how far things have degraded when you're part of the reason why they're like that in the first place. You want things to get better round here? Next time you decide to pass Thy Judgement on another's playstyle...just don't. If it weren't for people like you with the "Griefer" and "Exploiter" catcalls locked and loaded just needing a target "Ready, Willing and Able SIR!", Drutort would have nobody to poke into action. Cause that's all this was: an opportunity to rile up the hornet's nest a bit. Why else would someone post unconfirm speculation about a possible way to exploit in an already highly disliked situation bearing enough similarities to an ongoing situation to be considered at least a fraternal twin? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.02 12:42:00 - [77] Quote: "I dont care if your friend quit the game, but you cant accuse us of exploiting when we arent. None of the game mechanics are being abused, no loophole is being used, no bug, not even the smallest bug is being exploited. So for all i care your friend can cancel all his accounts, no problem with us, but dont come here screaming sploit sploit! when its not the case." What you are doing is obviously something CCP "missed". This game has a lot of holes in it, just look's like you guys found another one. And instead of reporting it as a bug, you are exploiting it in typical griefer fashion. The sentries are there for a reason, and it's not to give pirates an advantage. If you step back and look at the situation, I just don't see how any of you think any part of the scenario is "legitimate" Totally laughable... I'm sure CCP will shut you guys down sooner or later. I would like to see all those involved get banned. Banning is probably one of the only true deterants to exploiting in on-line gaming. We did report it, you halfwit. We came up with a theory, which we thought would/should work. It did. We were worried about idiots calling us exploiters for it (we were right about that too, it seems) so we reported it to the GM's ourselves. We were told that it is not an exploit. What more do you think we should do? Why do you waste your time on petty hatred? And j0, I didn't say you knew what we did (although you might), but you do know what we didn't do .
Needo	Posted - 2003.10.02 12:43:00 - [78] A BS could sit 60+ km from the gate and use dampeners on it (in the same or another grid). Or perhaps just sit out of range and wait... If it's the first I think it's fair, if it's the 2nd it's somewhere in the greyzone between exploit and ridiculous AI. ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 12:59:00 - [79] Quote: A BS could sit 60+ km from the gate and use dampeners on it (in the same or another grid). Or perhaps just sit out of range and wait... If it's the first I think it's fair, if it's the 2nd it's somewhere in the greyzone between exploit and ridiculous AI. Sensor dampeners don't work on NPCs that I've ever seen. They don't even pull aggro. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.02 13:00:00 - [80] Quote: A BS could sit 60+ km from the gate and use dampeners on it (in the same or another grid). Or perhaps just sit out of range and wait... If it's the first I think it's fair, if it's the 2nd it's somewhere in the greyzone between exploit and ridiculous AI. I heard most gate guns can reach 100km now. I have no proof of this, and I'm not reckless enough to try it. .
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.02 13:04:00 - [81] "Sensor dampeners don't work on NPCs that I've ever seen. They don't even pull aggro." ... I got two sentries very ****ed at me when i tested the dampeners on them... -.^; But yeah, they didn't work. :s
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.02 13:07:00 - [82] Edited by: Discorporation on 02/10/2003 13:12:08 Amarr sentry Caldari Sentry Guardian Sentry Sentinel Sentry Minmatar Sentry These are the highest Tech sentries of each race. Optimal Range never exceeds 75 KM, no Accuracy Falloff is listed. As I've damaged things beyond my percieved maximum range (opt+acc falloff), it could be that sentries can hit beyong their Optimal Range. <edit> Thanks to Ganja and his Eve-DB team for the information. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 13:09:00 - [83] Edited by: Jash Illian on 02/10/2003 13:12:53 Quote: "Sensor dampeners don't work on NPCs that I've ever seen. They don't even pull aggro." ... I got two sentries very ***ed at me when i tested the dampeners on them... -.^; But yeah, they didn't work. :s Said 'pull aggro', oh ebil one. Tried using them while belt mining to get the npcs to switch targets onto me away from drones or miners. Doesn't work. Also doesn't stop them from switching targets if they choose. Like if you've got them locked onto you but aren't firing, because not all the rats have you focused and firing would send your heavy drones careening into death, so they get bored and start picking on the mining drones again. Now if the NPC hasn't noticed you and you try to dampen them, its guaranteed to earn you their tender attentions. Which, with sentry guns, is about as tender as being tenderized with a mallet. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Needo	Posted - 2003.10.02 13:10:00 - [84] What is activation proximity? ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.02 13:11:00 - [85] I think Activation Proximity doesn't really apply to NPC sentries [Heterocephalus glaber]
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.02 13:19:00 - [86] "Said 'pull aggro', oh ebil one." Sorry, my handle on Minmatar dialect is rather poor, as easily noticed ;.; Thought it's some equivalent of 'getting one to open the can o'whoopass'... "Now if the NPC hasn't noticed you and you try to dampen them, its guaranteed to earn you their tender attentions. Which, with sentry guns, is about as tender as being tenderized with a mallet." Aye, the concept of being gentle seems to be lost on those... >>;;
Viceroy	Posted - 2003.10.02 13:55:00 - [87] Drunkenmaster said it all. There are 3 types of people in this thread: The flamers that just want to have a nice forum war. The people that actually want to know whats going on. and joshua calvert. -
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 14:11:00 - [88] Quote: "Said 'pull aggro', oh ebil one." Sorry, my handle on Minmatar dialect is rather poor, as easily noticed ;.; Thought it's some equivalent of 'getting one to open the can o'whoopass'... What? Just because my Charisma is a bit shoddy doesn't mean my Intelligence is as well. I graduated from the Republic University after all. My vocabulary is as polished as Jade's. I just find shootin stuff faster and more to the point Quote: "Now if the NPC hasn't noticed you and you try to dampen them, its guaranteed to earn you their tender attentions. Which, with sentry guns, is about as tender as being tenderized with a mallet." Aye, the concept of being gentle seems to be lost on those... >>;; I'm just glad someone found a way around the machinations of Concord. I'd lobby them to share the method except I'm fairly certain that would lead to its own undoing. While people are guessing, they're quite safe. Once the cat's outta the bag, I suspect they'll let it run away and find a new kitty to hold hostage in a sack. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Drachir	Posted - 2003.10.02 14:24:00 - [89] If its not dampers and not jamming. (i tried jamming them on chaos and it works fine, regardless of patch notes) The only thing I can think of is that they have a high faction standing with the owners of those guns... If not, then I want that cat yanked outta the bag :)
Bobby Wilson	Posted - 2003.10.02 14:43:00 - [90] Edited by: Bobby Wilson on 02/10/2003 14:58:21 Quote: Yeah I would also guess that one of them attacks the guns and then mwd's away out of range; guns stay on one target and they don't switch. LOL. That is an interesting idea. In fact, they could actually fire at it from out of range (max could be more than 100 KM with some sensor linking help), then wouldn't need to be in gun range to commit an agressive act on a gun, and wouldn't need a quality hit on one either.... This works with convoys, you can draw them a looong way by shooting, even if yer not doing any damage. And guns can't move, so..... Well folks, what do you think? Anyone tried this to see if we have a winner? BW P.S. Any way you slice it, this comes down to problem #2 with eve (#1 being server-side lag and loading) : The AIs, by and large, are too stupid to live. They make the original Donkey Kong look bright (who's old enough to remember rolling barrels?). For example, the standard tactic for convoys (see EVE-i) is frighteningly easy, and depends on stupid and profoundly predictable AIs. So does chaining, AFK and macro-mining as well as gate camping anywhere in empire space. I don't blame players for taking advantage (won't use the "e" word, apparently doesn't apply here) of NPC idiocy, but I would hope that at some point it will get looked at in general, as the game would be a lot more fun if we actually had to do some continuous, creative thinking when dealing with NPC cops, gun, rats, convoys, etc. rather than just learning how things work ATM and doing the same thing over and over once we've figured it out... OH, and regards to Space Invaders, who at least bother to experiment a bit with the game, unlike others who just find one thing, do it 8 hours a day for weeks on end and scream like infants if a patch or nerf requires them to change their ways. You guys may be nasty smelly pirates, buy at least yer creative nasty smelly pirates. Originally by: Selim Cool, congrats. Oh, stupid idea by the way.
Needo	Posted - 2003.10.02 14:44:00 - [91] Edited by: Needo on 02/10/2003 14:45:15 Nah, it would probably be what someone else posted above, that someone start aggression on the sentries and MWD out of range, then sit put. Edit: I am too slow these days. ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 14:54:00 - [92] Quote: Edited by: Needo on 02/10/2003 14:45:15 Nah, it would probably be what someone else posted above, that someone start aggression on the sentries and MWD out of range, then sit put. Edit: I am too slow these days. Stationary NPCs that lose their target will retarget according to their AI criteria. As far as they're concerned, you no longer exist as only targets they have locked or meet their activation criteria exist. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Mastema	Posted - 2003.10.02 15:01:00 - [93] Edited by: Mastema on 02/10/2003 15:01:44 For 50,000,000 isk I will tell you the answer, or a free Battleship of anykind Research with Duvolle Laboratories or you'll end up in the meat grinder!
Archain	Posted - 2003.10.02 15:05:00 - [94] Mastema is my hero and my pizzaman..... Space Invaders Movie Library - [SPVD]
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.02 15:05:00 - [95] OMG! SELLOUT!!!! but seriously, a few people are close. But nobody has nailed it yet. Or... maybe someone has.... <Dramatic Chords>DAAAN DAAAN DAAAAAAAAAH!!!! 'the tension mounts.... on with the bodycount' - Ice T .
Bobby Wilson	Posted - 2003.10.02 15:06:00 - [96] Quote: Stationary NPCs that lose their target will retarget according to their AI criteria. As far as they're concerned, you no longer exist as only targets they have locked or meet their activation criteria exist. Not sure they would lose their target just because it was out of gun range. I read the stats on the guns posted above and didn't see stats on max targetting range or max locked targets. I don't lose a lock until someone leaves my max range, and sometimes even then I for whatever reason maintain a useless lock (ie. can't fire on target) even on targets a distance away. During the interpatch period where drones dropped in 10s, I had one case of weirdness where 2 Serpentis were bounced 126 KM away (don't know by what) and I kept that lock for 5 minutes while chaining the spawn that replaced them, before finally trying to shoot them, and only then did I lose my lock. Can someone in fightclub please take a couple of mates into Chaos and find out? I'm curious as hell now... Originally by: Selim Cool, congrats. Oh, stupid idea by the way.
Zaxx	Posted - 2003.10.02 15:09:00 - [97] Quote: Drunkenmaster said it all. There are 3 types of people in this thread: The flamers that just want to have a nice forum war. The people that actually want to know whats going on. and joshua calvert. Put me in category 2 please /grabs an alt and investigates
Lianhaun	Posted - 2003.10.02 15:12:00 - [98] perhaps we can make an event out of it? This is not a hijack
Bobby Wilson	Posted - 2003.10.02 15:14:00 - [99] Quote: perhaps we can make an event out of it? OR you guys could just tell us ;) BW Originally by: Selim Cool, congrats. Oh, stupid idea by the way.
Kasha	Posted - 2003.10.02 15:18:00 - [100] To be honest im quite amazed that nobody has figured it out yet. Well...., allmost nobody.
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2003.10.02 15:42:00 - [101] ecm, target disruptor.. whatever.. i hate these kind of games.. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.02 15:53:00 - [102] Quote: Sc0rpion knows, j0sephine knows, Discorp knows, Joshua knows (I think), and Veruna knows what we did. Space Invaders know. Any of our victims that were paying the slightest bit of attention know. the only people that seem confused about this issue are people who WEREN'T THERE and haven't got the first idea. Oh, and Nymphogirl is a troll. As for whether Drutorts idea works, I couldn't say, we've never tried it, it sounds like a stupid waste of ships, seeing as how sentries don't work that way, but I'll be pleased to hear if someone does try this. Joshua does not know. Joshua can only guess since he cannot afford to lose ships to test out the thoery Joshua should stop talking this way before Joshua smacks Joshua. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.02 15:55:00 - [103] Quote: Drunkenmaster said it all. There are 3 types of people in this thread: The flamers that just want to have a nice forum war. The people that actually want to know whats going on. and joshua calvert. I think I just got complimented/insulted but, like your method of gate camping, I'm completely unsure! LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:01:00 - [104] Surely if the sentry guns are rendered inactive by whatever SI are doing, it matters not that they are high SS in 0.4 space near a gate. The sentry guns will not be able to fire while SI are "messing" with them? We've had precious little first-hand accounts so it's very difficult to figure out. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Beringe	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:03:00 - [105] I'm starting to think energized armor and armor repairers. Or shield/energy transfers to keep those shields up. Definitely some sort of simply sitting there and sustaining the damage. And if so, good job. ------------------------------------------- "My main griveance with the Caldari state was that once I had finished my work for them, they wanted me dead." "No, it's none of your business."
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:05:00 - [106] Are the sentry guns firing? Methinks I'm gonna send one of my disposable alts down there and answer some questions. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Viceroy	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:06:00 - [107] its all very very simple actually... but very expensive to find out -
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:11:00 - [108] Edited by: j0sephine on 02/10/2003 16:18:18 "What? Just because my Charisma is a bit shoddy doesn't mean my Intelligence is as well. I graduated from the Republic University after all. My vocabulary is as polished as Jade's. I just find shootin stuff faster and more to the point " Hey, hey now... i wasn't implying you would be too dumb to understand and talk about things correctly... but that i am. :s "Stationary NPCs that lose their target will retarget according to their AI criteria. As far as they're concerned, you no longer exist as only targets they have locked or meet their activation criteria exist." ... Approach the guns in Ibis, intitiate aggression, get shot to pieces. The sentries relock on the pod and stay in aggro mode, but won't shoot. Still, as long as you keep your pod nearby and they are locked on you, they should ignore anyone else. Or something like that; don't feel at the moment like trying it out... o.O
Cao Cao	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:15:00 - [109] Alright, well I tested attacking sentry gun to get its attention then going outside its range. It works, for about 30 seconds and then it switches targets. So much for that idea.
Lianhaun	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:29:00 - [110] this is too funny This is not a hijack
Mastema	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:29:00 - [111] lol, come on, cough up 50m and we'll tell you! Research with Duvolle Laboratories or you'll end up in the meat grinder!
mk ultra	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:30:00 - [112] How about if you were to aling your ship with the 2 sentry guns . Sentries are what 30km apart and have 60km targetting range you could jam the closest sentry and stay 30 km from it and at the same time be 60km from the other one out of range so everyone warping to the stargate would be in range of both and if he looses sec in that range you would have 1 of the sentry gun on your side . I never tested that but it could really work considering the game mechanics ------------------------ <Beeth> Girls are like internet domain names, the ones I like are already taken. <honx> well, you can stil get one from a strange country :-P
Viceroy	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:30:00 - [113] 40mil here! -
Lianhaun	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:31:00 - [114] another scorp pls This is not a hijack
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:34:00 - [115] "40mil here!" lol; how about we pay Disco 7.5 mil so he gets Lianhaun drunk and make her not just sing, but also tell everything for free... ;s
Viceroy	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:36:00 - [116] 5mil here! -
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:37:00 - [117] i'm afraid that'll cost you a whole lot more, j0sephine ;) [Heterocephalus glaber]
Lianhaun	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:38:00 - [118] Quote: "40mil here!" lol; how about we pay Disco 7.5 mil so he gets Lianhaun drunk and make her not just sing, but also tell everything for free... ;s OMG you ppl are low! Using my trust for Discorp, ha he will not abuse it. I'm sure, otherwise no n****e. This is not a hijack
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:39:00 - [119] "i'm afraid that'll cost you a whole lot more, j0sephine ;)" ... Aww now don't say that so loud, Viceroy is now going to raise the price again ;s
Viceroy	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:40:00 - [120] price is up to 40mil again :P -
Sexxsi	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:41:00 - [121] Edited by: Sexxsi on 02/10/2003 16:45:01 Quote: Are the sentry guns firing? yes. I went to Aurahunen(sp?) the night before last with my Moa and fired on some guy from Space Invaders with a bunch of numbers in his name(I think that means he's "leet" or something) and the sentry guns immediately fired on me even though he was lower than -5 security. it's an exploit if there's no way to attack them and stop the camping. At least in 0.0 space you can fight back.
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:42:00 - [122] You guys are going to kick yourselves when you figure it out. I mean really, REALLY hard! "The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously." -Freidrich Nietzche
Viceroy	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:51:00 - [123] -
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:52:00 - [124] Quote: Edited by: Sexxsi on 02/10/2003 16:45:01 Quote: Are the sentry guns firing? yes. I went to Aurahunen(sp?) the night before last with my Moa and fired on some guy from Space Invaders with a bunch of numbers in his name(I think that means he's "leet" or something) and the sentry guns immediately fired on me even though he was lower than -5 security. it's an exploit if there's no way to attack them and stop the camping. At least in 0.0 space you can fight back. the numbers mean 'don't shoot'. maybe your main char will know better next time. .
Sexxsi	Posted - 2003.10.02 16:57:00 - [125] Quote: the numbers mean 'don't shoot'. maybe your main char will know better next time. yes, I now know that your corp exploits and sets up camping spots in which nobody can fight back. It's a shame really. all you pirates talking about how all the "carebears" just whine to CCP instead of fighting you, then you pull crap like this making sure that nobody can attack you at all, setting it up so Concord does the killing for you if a party of people come by to root you out. And all you pirates wonder why CCP makes it harder and harder for you to do anything...
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:01:00 - [126] Quote: Quote: the numbers mean 'don't shoot'. maybe your main char will know better next time. yes, I now know that your corp exploits and sets up camping spots in which nobody can fight back. It's a shame really. all you pirates talking about how all the "carebears" just whine to CCP instead of fighting you, then you pull crap like this making sure that nobody can attack you at all, setting it up so Concord does the killing for you if a party of people come by to root you out. And all you pirates wonder why CCP makes it harder and harder for you to do anything... Err...Damn... Insurance on my ship: 72m isk payout Cost of a Scorpion for SI: 40m apparently Chance to prove this person wrong: Closing in on Priceless rapidly. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:03:00 - [127] OMG! What part of Quote: Even the GM's say it's not an exploit are you missing? "The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously." -Freidrich Nietzche
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:09:00 - [128] Quote: OMG! What part of Quote: Even the GM's say it's not an exploit are you missing? The part that you're missing. Sc0rpion. The part you're missing is her ego. It's what making her say Quote: IF I CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT, IT MUST BE AN EXPLOIT! I'm smarter than some dumb ole pirates! I have to be! My life has no meaning if I'm not! I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Needo	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:15:00 - [129] Stargate and station sentry guns in systems with 0.45 or higher security level now attack players who come within range and have -5 (or lower) security status. Sentry guns around stargates now attack people within range who lose or recently lost standing from the corporation that owns them or the faction that owns the solarsystem. If a -10 pirate initiates attack he won't lose any sec and therefore not be attacked? Is that still in the game? ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
Sexxsi	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:18:00 - [130] actually, a GM did tell me it was an exploit in response to my petition. I'm obviously not the only one who was told that if this particular incident is being asked for clarification in the csm chat. And please explain to me how, in empire space, beinf attacked by gate camping pirates with extremely low security ratings and getting killed by Sentry guns when you try to fight back ISN'T an exploit? I don't care if there's some "trick" to setting things up that way, it still boils down to the fact that something is being done to cause the game to work differently than it otherwise should. Something that has no purpose other than to disrupt the game for others.
Sexxsi	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:22:00 - [131] Quote: If a -10 pirate initiates attack he won't lose any sec and therefore not be attacked? Is that still in the game? When I went there, I saw 3 people camping the gate. the one I attacked wasn't -10, and the one who tried warp disrupting me wasn't either. They were both in the low -9's. There was one guy there who was actually -10.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:23:00 - [132] Quote: actually, a GM did tell me it was an exploit in response to my petition. I'm obviously not the only one who was told that if this particular incident is being asked for clarification in the csm chat. And please explain to me how, in empire space, beinf attacked by gate camping pirates with extremely low security ratings and getting killed by Sentry guns when you try to fight back ISN'T an exploit? I don't care if there's some "trick" to setting things up that way, it still boils down to the fact that something is being done to cause the game to work differently than it otherwise should. Something that has no purpose other than to disrupt the game for others. By choosing the wrong pirate to shoot? Are you 100% certain of who you shot at? That they didn't further trick you into attacking the person that isn't below the breakpoint when he locked onto you first but didn't fire and you autotargetted him back but did fire? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
WhiteDwarf	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:24:00 - [133] "And please explain to me how, in empire space, beinf attacked by gate camping pirates with extremely low security ratings and getting killed by Sentry guns when you try to fight back ISN'T an exploit? I don't care if there's some "trick" to setting things up that way, it still boils down to the fact that something is being done to cause the game to work differently than it otherwise should. Something that has no purpose other than to disrupt the game for others" Exactly what I've been trying to say all along, you worded it much better than I. SI will get spanked for this, mark my word. Hopefully all involved get banned. "Trust No One"
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:29:00 - [134] K It's not an exploit, it's extremely smrtythinking.. People that want others banned for experimenting with the game mechanics and using their brains, rather then lock, turn on guns, loot cans in chokepoint systems, might as well stay in regions where ther'es Concord. They'll never get it.. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Sexxsi	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:29:00 - [135] Quote: By choosing the wrong pirate to shoot? Are you 100% certain of who you shot at? That they didn't further trick you into attacking the person that isn't below the breakpoint when he locked onto you first but didn't fire and you autotargetted him back but did fire? no, I made certain of the security level before I attacked. I didn't check all three until after the fight, but i did check the one I was attacking. The reason I picked him was because he started firing on me. I was attacked first, by at least 2 of them prior to shooting back. The sentry guns didn't attack them, not for their low security rating, nor for attacking me. As soon as I fired, I was attacked by the sentry guns. The GM who responded to me said it was an Exploit and that it's being looked into.
WhiteDwarf	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:35:00 - [136] "It's not an exploit, it's extremely smrtythinking.." K m0o used to say the same thing about thier "setup" Either way you look at it, SI is still trying to gate camp in a system where it's not allowed, hence the sentry guns being there in the first fukking place! It may have been cute and all the way they figured it out, but it will be stopped by CCP... "Trust No One"
Bobby Wilson	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:40:00 - [137] Edited by: Bobby Wilson on 02/10/2003 17:43:27 Quote: price is up to 40mil again :P Okay, I'll seriously bite. I'll send a mil Isk if/when you guys post an explanation that the more credible in this thread believe. Tell me some of the rest of you aren't a mil's worth of curious? BW Originally by: Selim Cool, congrats. Oh, stupid idea by the way.
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:40:00 - [138] If it wouldn't have been allowed, there would be no combat possible at the gate. That is not the case, hence, if you can find a way around the annoying problem of sentries, you're free to do anything. You'll have to live with keeping on your toes in 0.4 space and below, because this sin't an exploit and is not going to go anywhere [Heterocephalus glaber]
WhiteDwarf	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:48:00 - [139] "You'll have to live with keeping on your toes in 0.4 space and below, because this sin't an exploit and is not going to go anywhere" We shall see... CCP can patch anything... "Trust No One"
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:50:00 - [140] Yup :) [Heterocephalus glaber]
Needo	Posted - 2003.10.02 17:51:00 - [141] Well, if it's so increadibly smart, the odds that it was not designed to work that way are pretty low... ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
J3tt	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:06:00 - [142] Edited by: J3tt on 02/10/2003 18:07:27 jesus you people.....USE YOUR BRAINS...discorp i like you :)...rest of you just go try all your stupid experiments....EXPLOITERS!!! i guess you don't know how stupid you sound when you say that. Sexxsi if you don't know what you are talking about STFU You petitioned what U think is happening not what is actualy happening ----------------------------------------- Can your pod outrun a cruise missle?
WhiteDwarf	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:10:00 - [143] "jesus you people.....USE YOUR BRAINS...discorp i like you :)...rest of you just go try all your stupid experiments....EXPLOITERS!!! i guess you don't know how stupid you sound when you say that" I could really care less what cute little trick is being used... Fact is, there is gate camping by a pirate corp, happening in a system with sentry guns. Sentry guns were put in place to stop such griefing in protected space, obviously a loophole was found, and it needs to be remedied. I don't care if they are in good faction standing with the sentry gun owners or not, whatever the scenario pans out to be, what they are doing flies in the face of CCP's intent. "Trust No One"
NymphoGrrrl	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:16:00 - [144] Quote: Edited by: J3tt on 02/10/2003 18:07:27 jesus you people.....USE YOUR BRAINS...discorp i like you :)...rest of you just go try all your stupid experiments....EXPLOITERS!!! i guess you don't know how stupid you sound when you say that. Sexxsi if you don't know what you are talking about STFU You petitioned what U think is happening not what is actualy happening pot, meet kettle... ...look at your grammer, and tell us who is "stupid" (that name is a script kiddie l33tn3ss huh?) Exploit by definition applies, so rather they are "smart" or not has nothing to do with it being right or wrong (wrong on all accounts). Hope that CCP applies their new policy, and bans all of SI, and siezes their assets.
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:17:00 - [145] whitedwarf/sexxi (if you're even different people): stop posting. every post you make is gonna make you look more stupid when the truth comes out. WD may not care because (thank his mother) he'll be cancelling soon. sexxi, nobody puts any stock in the words of an alt. did the GM you reported us to come and see for himself? Or did he base his 'yes, it's an exploit' on what you told him? As for everyone else... come on.. you're so close. I'm just wondering how many people have lost kit trying to work out what we have been doing our testing only cost me a blackbird. see if you can figure it out for cheaper.. .
Archain	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:18:00 - [146] Quote: yes, I now know that your corp exploits and sets up camping spots in which nobody can fight back. It's a shame really. all you pirates talking about how all the "carebears" just whine to CCP instead of fighting you, then you pull crap like this making sure that nobody can attack you at all, setting it up so Concord does the killing for you if a party of people come by to root you out. Our policy is to attempt to disable ships in order to aquire a passage fee. In terms of setting up so the other person can't fight back that is entirely our goal. We disable our targets to reduce the danger to our ships. Anyone returning fire, disconnecting convos, logging out, or making a run to the gate is usually regarded as a loss and cleared. Concord does not do the killing for us. This is a 0.4 system we are talking about...the police and concord are totally functional in the systems above 0.4. They honestly don't like us enough to fight for us anyway. Space Invaders Movie Library - [SPVD]
Skillz	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:18:00 - [147] I think that two GMs and one Polaris was at the SI blockade and saw everything SI did. I hope that CCP doesen't think something becomes an exploit just because you say sploit sploit ad infinum nauseum. But I'm not sure, sad to say. Keep on flaming, lamers.
Spoadfeld	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:21:00 - [148] Why don't you jam the sentry guns yourself? If all this stuff is true, you'd be able get them on your side...
WhiteDwarf	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:25:00 - [149] "In terms of setting up so the other person can't fight back that is entirely our goal" Translation: we will use loopholes in game mechanics anywhere possible to make our griefing tactics safer for us. It's not an exploit until CCP decides it is, so for now we will continue to use bad game mechanics to grief those players who happen to pass through a 0.4 system where they were led to believe the sentry guns will protect them from gate campers. "Trust No One"
Dirty Sanchez	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:28:00 - [150] WD who ever said .4 systems were safe? did ccp ever say that sentry guns were unavoidable for the pirates? <Thrak> I AM ***
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:28:00 - [151] Quote: Our policy is to attempt to disable ships in order to aquire a passage fee. In all fairness, my little scout wasn't asked for a fee before he was vapourized... Then again, it's probably my own fault for sending him there in an Ibis... "The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously." -Freidrich Nietzche
Sexxsi	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:29:00 - [152] Quote: Sexxsi if you don't know what you are talking about STFU You petitioned what U think is happening not what is actualy happening I was actually shot by a sentry gun after I was actually shot by someone in SI and dared to fight back. not really sure why you're getting so upset with me...perhaps I'm one of the few who's publicizing what actually happens during your little exploit? Getting mad at me for letting everyone know what's going on? I wasn't some n00b in an indy, or a defenseless shuttle, I came out there looking to fight you guys. I came armed, and I lasted longer than the people you were used to one-shotting, so unlike many of them, I got to watch what was going on.. Your reaction to me has me firmly convinced that this is nothing more than an exploit.
Lex Luger	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:33:00 - [153] Edited by: Lex Luger on 02/10/2003 18:37:34 Quote: I was actually shot by a sentry gun after I was actually shot by someone in SI and dared to fight back. Would you be able to show any logs that prove that? Until you do Im gona say that you are a liar.
Sexxsi	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:39:00 - [154] Quote: Would you be able to show any logs that prove that? Until you do Im gona say that you are a liar. Possibly.. Is there a place where the game log(the ones that records all the "so-and-so shot you for x amount of damage") saves in the cache anywhere? I looked when I was doing the petition because I assumed the GM would ask, but he didn't, just told me it was an exploit and would be dealt with. I couldn't find anything when I looked, and the log itself blanked out when I was ported back to my clone after they podded me, just like it always does when you warp or jump or dock.
Spoadfeld	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:39:00 - [155] I still don't see why this is an exploit - If you have the opportunity to jam the sentry guns too. That way, you have the chance to turn the guns on your attackers. Also, anyone who jams a sentry gun while no-one is around is pretty stuck if no-one turns up because as soon as they try to get away (breaking the jam) the gun will turn on them. I only came across this thread tonight and havn't seen this tactic in use anywhere, so might be wrong, but if there is a defence, then it can't be an exploit - or am I missing something?
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:45:00 - [156] "Possibly.. Is there a place where the game log(the ones that records all the "so-and-so shot you for x amount of damage") saves in the cache anywhere?" ... Whoever was involved in destruction of your ship is listed in the Concord evemail. 'Tis includes the faction which owns the sentry guns, if they indeed were shooting... non?
Lianhaun	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:46:00 - [157] your not missing anything, its not an exploit, its being creative and adaptable. And i so loooooooveeeee this thread, its really getting to some of you, isn't it? a scorpion and you'll know This is not a hijack
WhiteDwarf	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:47:00 - [158] "WD who ever said .4 systems were safe? did ccp ever say that sentry guns were unavoidable for the pirates?" If a system has sentry guns at the gates, the reason they were put there was to stop pirates from shooting pilots passing through without taking some kind of risk (i.e. if they shoot a pilot within range of the gate, the sentry gun attacks the aggressor, so they can't sit there and keep shooting). Why else would sentry guns be there? To aid negative sec players in gate camping, LOL! This whole thing is such a joke, I can't believe all the support for such an obvious game flaw! It's truly amazing. Negative sec players using sentry guns to thier advantage, just step back and take a macro look at the whole situation... Obviously this should not be happening, I'm sure CCP did not intend for this to happen. "Trust No One"
Dirty Sanchez	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:50:00 - [159] I haven't seen any proof that they are using them to there advantage. I would agree if that is the case. I have heard that they are just avoiding them, and what is wrong with that? <Thrak> I AM ***
mk ultra	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:52:00 - [160] Check out my last post on page 6 im sure thats how they do it :) ------------------------ <Beeth> Girls are like internet domain names, the ones I like are already taken. <honx> well, you can stil get one from a strange country :-P
Sexxsi	Posted - 2003.10.02 18:54:00 - [161] Quote: ... Whoever was involved in destruction of your ship is listed in the Concord evemail. 'Tis includes the faction which owns the sentry guns, if they indeed were shooting... non? yeah, I still have that, but is that acceptable? seems I'd just get accused of faking it if I posted the concord evemail.
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:02:00 - [162] Quote: Dirty Sanchez ROFL! "The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously." -Freidrich Nietzche
Archain	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:03:00 - [163] Quote: Translation: we will use loopholes in game mechanics anywhere possible to make our griefing tactics safer for us. It's not an exploit until CCP decides it is, so for now we will continue to use bad game mechanics to grief those players who happen to pass through a 0.4 system where they were led to believe the sentry guns will protect them from gate campers. If pirating = griefing you can be sure I won't be buying your dictionary anytime soon and I sure as hell will never hire you as a translator. Of course in your world they are probably synonyms anyway. Just relax, brother =) Space Invaders Movie Library - [SPVD]
WhiteDwarf	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:06:00 - [164] "If pirating = griefing you can be sure I won't be buying your dictionary anytime soon and I sure as hell will never hire you as a translator" In SI's version of the dictionary: Pirating = Gate Camping. They recieved this dictionary as a gift from a retired m0o griefer. (who quit the game because of people like me, YAY!) "Trust No One"
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:07:00 - [165] Quote: "WD who ever said .4 systems were safe? did ccp ever say that sentry guns were unavoidable for the pirates?" If a system has sentry guns at the gates, the reason they were put there was to stop pirates from shooting pilots passing through without taking some kind of risk (i.e. if they shoot a pilot within range of the gate, the sentry gun attacks the aggressor, so they can't sit there and keep shooting). Why else would sentry guns be there? To aid negative sec players in gate camping, LOL! This whole thing is such a joke, I can't believe all the support for such an obvious game flaw! It's truly amazing. Negative sec players using sentry guns to thier advantage, just step back and take a macro look at the whole situation... Obviously this should not be happening, I'm sure CCP did not intend for this to happen. I'm tempted to reveal what's really going on just to see the look on your face :) Do you have a webcam? [Heterocephalus glaber]
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:12:00 - [166] Quote: "If pirating = griefing you can be sure I won't be buying your dictionary anytime soon and I sure as hell will never hire you as a translator" In SI's version of the dictionary: Pirating = Gate Camping. They recieved this dictionary as a gift from a retired m0o griefer. (who quit the game because of people like me, YAY!) No in SI's verion of the dictionary: Pirating = Extortion. What you're **ed about is TomB uses the same dictionary: Quote:** [ 2003.10.01 23:44:28 ] Jash Illian > TomB, what do you see as the "pirate's income"? Those that go through the more difficult route to 'hijack' people at gates cannot force anyone to pay (they self-destruct, escape if given too long, logout, warp away before they can be locked and scrambled). And those that destroy people out of hand essentially roll the dice as to what they'll get for loot (been known to receive no loot before or blow the millions in megacyte to dust). So what is your idea of how a pirate is supposed to make a buck worth the restrictions and the added risk? And please fix the missile blowback and sending battleships zooming away [ 2003.10.01 23:46:07 ] TomB > Pirate hi-jaking has always been my dream, but making it into a good feature will be a difficult task I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
WhiteDwarf	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:12:00 - [167] "I'm tempted to reveal what's really going on just to see the look on your face :) Do you have a webcam?" Why don't you then, like someone said, what do I care, I only have 8 days left... "Trust No One"
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:13:00 - [168] Quote: I'm tempted to reveal what's really going on just to see the look on your face :) Do you have a webcam? Given the amount of risk and ingenuity SI has gone through to come up with this, don't do this group of whiners any favors. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Archain	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:15:00 - [169] lol, I've actually got a video already made of what we are doing. It's 69 Megs in size, but I've only showed it to our corp so far. Dwarf, I'm purely convinced that I can't change your mind...and to tell you the truth I don't really care. You're quitting, what does it matter to me or my corpmates? We know it's not an exploit. Space Invaders Movie Library - [SPVD]
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:15:00 - [170] Quote: Why don't you then, like someone said, what do I care, I only have 8 days left... Because if he did, every 2-bit wannabe in a Scorpion would be stealing SI's juice. More fun to watch people beat thier heads against a problem that's so bloody simple. "The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously." -Freidrich Nietzche
WhiteDwarf	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:15:00 - [171] "[ 2003.10.01 23:46:07 ] TomB > Pirate hi-jaking has always been my dream, but making it into a good feature will be a difficult task" Sounds like the Dev's have not truely implemented TomB's dream, sounds like they have more work to do... "Trust No One"
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:16:00 - [172] Quote: Given the amount of risk and ingenuity SI has gone through to come up with this, don't do this group of whiners any favors. I'm afraid they'd kill me, and I wouldn't want to hurt lianhaun and viceroy's feelings :( [Heterocephalus glaber]
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:18:00 - [173] Quote: Check out my last post on page 6 im sure thats how they do it :) nice idea, but no .
pooti	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:41:00 - [174] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=25482 According to that patch you can't jam empire owned sentry guns. So. Also, if you dudes are doing what I think you're doing there's gonna be another system of very unhappy people rather soon :)
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:46:00 - [175] This thread got very old very quickly. Why don't some of you declare war on SPVD if you're so outraged? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 19:49:00 - [176] Quote: This thread got very old very quickly. Why don't some of you declare war on SPVD if you're so outraged? Because then they'd be like WhiteTroll: Corpless and quitting. Where is your corp, Whitedwarf? You're l33t Roid-Combat skills couldn't keep yall from bankruptcy? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
J3tt	Posted - 2003.10.02 20:03:00 - [177] what could it be? ::Plays jeopardy theme songr:: ----------------------------------------- Can your pod outrun a cruise missle?
Sexxsi	Posted - 2003.10.02 20:14:00 - [178] ok, well, nobody said not to, so here's copy-n-paste from the evemails I got.. first when I blew up: 2003.10.01 05:45:00 Report: The destruction of your ship 2003.10.01 05:45:00 Involved parties: Mastema Caldari State J3tt ---------------------- then when i was podded: 2003.10.01 05:46:00 Report: The killing of your pod 2003.10.01 05:46:00 Involved parties: h4x0 J3tt Mastema
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.02 20:17:00 - [179] Pirate one warps out, leaving you as agressor (as the other three didnt really shoot at you). The sentry gun sees you as only agressor and start firing and blow your ship up. Then the Space Invaders blow up your pod Damend good thinking, lads, damned good thinking. [Heterocephalus glaber]
h4x0	Posted - 2003.10.02 20:34:00 - [180] Edited by: h4x0 on 02/10/2003 20:45:02 You know before this post, I was beginning to think that everyone in Eve were whiny carebears. Now I only think that 90% of you people are whiny carebears. To the other 10% of you, I definately appreciate you keeping this to yourselves. As I am sure every one else in SI does as well. Makes me love this game even more. Thanks Discorp, Scorpion, Veruna=Badass, and as far as I am concerned you guys will not be fired upon. (but that is just me m8's), dont know how others feel (Money, who said anything about money) Mastema just wants your corpse. ----------------------------------------------------------- Mastema: Milkshakes have icecream in them, you are drinking flavored milk, ya jackass. Jade Constantine > looks like you blasted the crap out of a load of our ships again
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.02 20:43:00 - [181] Quote: Quote: This thread got very old very quickly. Why don't some of you declare war on SPVD if you're so outraged? Because then they'd be like WhiteTroll: Corpless and quitting. Where is your corp, Whitedwarf? You're l33t Roid-Combat skills couldn't keep yall from bankruptcy? his ex-corp were one of the first to make the mistake of declaring a war on us .
Kasha	Posted - 2003.10.02 20:43:00 - [182] Quote: Who launched the torpedo's? Umm..., oops.
h4x0	Posted - 2003.10.02 20:47:00 - [183] Edited by: h4x0 on 02/10/2003 20:49:16 OMG, who launched the torpedo's? Kasha giggles in background, then says It was Mastema! OMG, dont shoot torpedo's near the indy, OMFG its a bestower. WTF: I guess it can handle three torpedo's. ----------------------------------------------------------- Mastema: Milkshakes have icecream in them, you are drinking flavored milk, ya jackass. Jade Constantine > looks like you blasted the crap out of a load of our ships again
WhiteDwarf	Posted - 2003.10.02 20:53:00 - [184] "Pirate one warps out, leaving you as agressor (as the other three didnt really shoot at you). The sentry gun sees you as only agressor and start firing and blow your ship up. Then the Space Invaders blow up your pod Damend good thinking, lads, damned good thinking." Yeah, pretty neat trick, but... Just don't shoot back! This is dissappointing, I thought it was something better than that... Like firing missiles & torps from out of range of the sentries, etc. I guess I would have never got caught in this scheme, as I don't return fire near gates or stations... "Trust No One"
Arkonor	Posted - 2003.10.02 21:09:00 - [185] it still should be considered an exploit..... its abusing sentry gun's something i doubt ccp want people to be doing.
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2003.10.02 21:12:00 - [186] Quote: Discorp, Scorpion, Veruna=Badass, and as far as I am concerned you guys will not be fired upon. (but that is just me m8's), dont know how others feel Have you ever heard the tale of the duck and the scorpion? (Bear with me here): Quote: One day, a duck was swimming down the river when she noticed a scorpion on the bank, staring at the water. The scorpion called out to the duck "Say, will you give me a ride across the river?" The duck replied "Oh no, I could never do that, you would sting me and I would surely drown." To which the scorpion replied "But if I were to do that, I would drown as well. Rest assured, I would not wish to drown, so I will not sting you." The duck thought about this for a moment. It sounded reasonable and logical, so the duck agreed. The scorpion climbed up onto the duck's back. When they were about half way across the river, the scorpion stung the duck. As she began to lose conciousness, the duck asked "Why have you stung me? Now we will both surely drown." The scorpion replied "Because I am a scorpion. I cannot pretend to be something I am not, I must be true to my nature." You must be true to your nature. "The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously." -Freidrich Nietzche
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 21:13:00 - [187] Quote: it still should be considered an exploit..... its abusing sentry gun's something i doubt ccp want people to be doing. Erm...How is getting shot by the sentry guns abusing them. They're doing their jobs. If they were semi-sentient, they'd prolly be happy about it. Just because their target refuses to die doesn't mean it's an exploit. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Arkonor	Posted - 2003.10.02 21:21:00 - [188] and im sure the game mechanics are meant to let people sit camping stargates getting blasted by sentry guns ? whats the point in them beeing there if they dont do what they are intended for ? stopping people camping gates in semi secure space and from the sounds of it the guy's beeing agressive dont sit there for long if they warp off to let the sentry gun attack the person trying to defend himself. its as lame as docking every few seconds to charge shields, SI are a bunch of cowards who cant fight like real men they have to abuse the game mechanics like m0o used to
Dixie Flatline	Posted - 2003.10.02 21:29:00 - [189] Quote: Quote: it still should be considered an exploit..... its abusing sentry gun's something i doubt ccp want people to be doing. Erm...How is getting shot by the sentry guns abusing them. They're doing their jobs. If they were semi-sentient, they'd prolly be happy about it. Just because their target refuses to die doesn't mean it's an exploit. Jash, you are wasting your time talking to people like him. I hardly can describe his species. I guess he omitted the warning as he jumped the first time in a 0.4 solar system. He would prolly also moan when he would lose a ship somewhere in Catch, 50 jumps away from the next station being AFK on his way back (people have done this). He would prolly also moan when someone strikes one of his pawns in chess or buys some nice streets in monopoly. Some people are no match for others in games and I have seen a lot of people yelling stuff like - exploiter, - griefer, - camper, - cheater, - ****, - lamer in a lot of different games (FPS, MMORPG) when they lose something and that's just the common stuff I am mentioning here. Most people can't accept that they have been owned, they are just bad losers. -- Morkt Drak: "I go afk and upon return find my scorpion having the **** shot out of it by Biomass Cartel.. scorpion blows up but i escape in my pod.*"
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 21:30:00 - [190] Quote: and im sure the game mechanics are meant to let people sit camping stargates getting blasted by sentry guns ? whats the point in them beeing there if they dont do what they are intended for ? stopping people camping gates in semi secure space and from the sounds of it the guy's beeing agressive dont sit there for long if they warp off to let the sentry gun attack the person trying to defend himself. its as lame as docking every few seconds to charge shields, SI are a bunch of cowards who cant fight like real men they have to abuse the game mechanics like m0o used to Obviously you know very little about what they're doing. You're listening to rumor I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Dixie Flatline	Posted - 2003.10.02 21:31:00 - [191] Quote: and im sure the game mechanics are meant to let people sit camping stargates getting blasted by sentry guns ? whats the point in them beeing there if they dont do what they are intended for ? stopping people camping gates in semi secure space and from the sounds of it the guy's beeing agressive dont sit there for long if they warp off to let the sentry gun attack the person trying to defend himself. its as lame as docking every few seconds to charge shields, SI are a bunch of cowards who cant fight like real men they have to abuse the game mechanics like m0o used to And you are just a troll. plonk Don't feed him guys. -- Morkt Drak: "I go afk and upon return find my scorpion having the *** shot out of it by Biomass Cartel.. scorpion blows up but i escape in my pod.*"
Archain	Posted - 2003.10.02 21:32:00 - [192] Edited by: Archain on 02/10/2003 21:32:34 http://www.clanccc.net/Images/Screenshots/Eve%20Online/The04Exp.wmv Screw it, lol. You know how it's done. it doesn't take away from the fact that it requires tons of teamwork =). When things change everyone just has to adapt.... Space Invaders Movie Library - [SPVD]
Arkonor	Posted - 2003.10.02 21:36:00 - [193] okay if ccp dont change how sentry guns work to counter this then i am just a whining troll who has nothing better to do than talk crap on the forum's...
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:09:00 - [194] Whitedwarf: You don't have to shoot back to get your stuffing torn out, we do still shoot. I guess you could call the other thing a sort of 'backup plan' Arkanor: You named yourself after a rock! nice. I still can't believe after all this evidence that you still call this an exploit. .
WhiteDwarf	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:31:00 - [195] "Whitedwarf: You don't have to shoot back to get your stuffing torn out, we do still shoot. I guess you could call the other thing a sort of 'backup plan'" Then how come you guys could never get me? I must have made it though at least 10 or so of your blockades... Admittedly, that was before you were using this tactic. However, I would never get caught in that situation, cause I use the map... "Trust No One"
Archain	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:32:00 - [196] He sure is smart.... Damn him. Space Invaders Movie Library - [SPVD]
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.03 05:28:00 - [197] Edited by: Drutort on 03/10/2003 05:39:53 I must be missing something... if its so simple that the other player warps out and the player who attacked is the only agressor... it still doesnt explain why the sentry guns are not blowing up the ppl who are -5sec or did i miss some place that they dont fire at -5sec ppl now? does it have to do with it being .4sec or lower? BTW if what you say is true... then its still a game flaw... because your agression should be with that individual... AND if they are -5sec or lower sentry guns should care less AFTER the battle... the only thing sentry guns should care are... firing at -5sec or lower ppl... firing at ppl who attack someone who is not -5sec if that first agressor leaves the 2nd person involved SHOULD NOT be targeted by the sentry guns... it makes no sense at all for them to be firing at that player... and it goes back to my thread about the AI being really stupid and having the lack of priority to kill... and rather does like first in first out... that means if one of the firsts leave then it still keeps on firing on the 2nd first out... which should not be the case LOL why would the sentry guns be attacking then a player who was well that is the problem with this game... it has to be if CCP says its exploit its an exploit... but that doesnt have to be true whY? because exploit simply means giving an advantage to someone that they should not have due to some flaw even stupid AI in this case. CCP will not say this is exploit, you know why? because they coded the DUMB AI, and it is used for all THE NPC'S!! so then if they said its exploit, using the NPC dumb AI to ones advantage could be said to be exploiting... so CCP would have to fix ALL THE AI on ALL NPC's to be a little smarter and handle different cases. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2003.10.03 06:13:00 - [198] Archain: Nice vid. "The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously." -Freidrich Nietzche
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.03 06:38:00 - [199] well either way SI proved that the theory i had works... even though it doesnt matter... but it does work as i thought LOL, so if one agressor leaves the other is then targeted and fired up on... that means that 1 ship can jam the sentry guns and fire at a person then that person opens up on the one who started and leaves and sentry's then unjamed open up on that other person LOL anyway there is no need for any more talk about this... the AI is stupid and CCP needs to find better means then just sentry guns at areas like the idea of SWAT... but thats another story support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Sc0rpion	Posted - 2003.10.03 06:50:00 - [200] Quote: well either way SI proved that the theory i had works... even though it doesnt matter... but it does work as i thought LOL, so if one agressor leaves the other is then targeted and fired up on... that means that 1 ship can jam the sentry guns and fire at a person then that person opens up on the one who started and leaves and sentry's then unjamed open up on that other person LOL Dude, there's no jamming of sentry guns involved AT ALL. You can't jam them. 1) Lead blockade ship fires 2) Sentry guns lock onto lead blockade ship and fire 3) Support ships transfer shields to the lead ship (Not an aggressive act, so they don't get on the sentry guns' kill list) 4) The sentry guns continue firing on the lead ship until it is either destroyed or moves out of thier range If the lead ship leaves the area and you have committed an aggressive act against someone not on the guns' kill list, then the guns will turn on you. It has nothing to do with jamming at all. (Personally, I would have expected better AI from a tech3 sentry gun, but I guess 7 thousand years of evolution have failed to provide us with useful computer programmers...) "The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously." -Freidrich Nietzche
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.03 08:43:00 - [201] Well, three days in, and still no warning from GM's/devs. hey, maybe the game is working like it was designed to... .
Trixxy	Posted - 2003.10.03 09:50:00 - [202] Edited by: Trixxy on 03/10/2003 09:51:47 Doesn't look like an exploit to me, mon (and I'm not even a pirate). It doesn't seem to me as abusing the A.I. or game mechanics. From a role-play point of view, you can assume the gun can detect hostile acts like jamming and shooting, but it's not beyond the scope of imagination that the transferring of shield could go undetected (shield energy transferred as a tight beam of microwave energy directly to target - impossible to intercept by a stationary object) Therefore the gun has no way of knowing the relationship between the aggressor on it, and the others who happen to be around the place. So when the aggressor leaves or gets out of range, the only thing the gun can do is move to the next aggressor. The gun has no way of knowing the intent of the other ships towards the 'victim'. So if victim starts shooting those other ships first, he is the next valid aggressor. This plan involves risk, planning and strategy on the parts of the pirates. Some strategy or thought in the battle on the part of the victim is obviously needed to avoid getting fired on by the gun. Clever. What I am unclear on: Pirate ship fires on gun, then when victim is in range, he fires on the victim (other ships remain passive and transfer shield to aggressor). If the victim then returns fire on the pirate, then will the gun STILL turn on the 'victim' after the aggressor warps out or gets out of range? Or will the gun only turn on the victim (after the gun-aggressor is out of range) if the victim was the one that initiated combat with the pirates? . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ...and remember - No pain, no pain.
Lianhaun	Posted - 2003.10.03 10:12:00 - [203] I only have to add one more thing, why isn't anybody from SI going shot Discorp? C'mon, he deserves it! Honestly he does, he's only being polite because of me, really. I demand his corpse if he gets near us. harrr. And man it toke you lot long to figure out what is going on. This is not a hijack
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.03 10:14:00 - [204] Cuz im fluffy and never leave safe space :P [Heterocephalus glaber]
Beringe	Posted - 2003.10.03 10:42:00 - [205] Aw, I was hoping it was uberarmor. But shield transfer is very clever too. Tanking the guns - that's the ticket! You've been adding 3 jumps on avarage to my agent missions in lonetrek, cause I always go around the blockade... ------------------------------------------- "My main griveance with the Caldari state was that once I had finished my work for them, they wanted me dead." "No, it's none of your business."
Lola	Posted - 2003.10.03 10:45:00 - [206] This thread is like WhiteTroll, it just won't go away. ----------------------------------------- Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas.
Daesdemona	Posted - 2003.10.03 11:12:00 - [207] I didn't comment on this thread because although I am not too fond of pirates, I think SI are some alright people, and I wanted to see all the facts for myself. This tactic is a good one, now, thanks to all the other hypothesis in these threads they have other ways of bettering it but whatever. The issue that sentry guns could be smarter and attack anyone aiding their aggressor IS PRESENT, but since they are tech 3, and in lowER sec space, I am not goign to cry if it stays like this. Now another confusion is why setries do not attack -5 sec people, but I guess this is explained by the fact that guns just plain don't attack people that are not aggressors. Some people that do not have time to be informed can be confused about this, so I think CCP should make a "rules on engagement" option available on bulletin boards, just so people can refer to them. This whole thing will change with faction security implementation soon to come... The video was cool, SI, hats off to you for this technique. To those who were killed: remember, they are sitting ducks at that gate, and their shields are being used to boost the guy under fire, so if you have a whole bunch of battleships to spare act as follows: 1) Warp in with **ty ship, place 150km bookmark. 2) Warp in with 15 Armageddons (tachyons maxed for range) 3) use boosters to (silent) target at 120+Kms 4) wait for a poor bastard to get caught by SI. 5) Open fire all at once on the SI members. Smile :) ----------------------------------------------- Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?" Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't**" -----------------------------------------------
Archain	Posted - 2003.10.03 16:56:00 - [208] To be honest I don't think there is any force that could stand up to that, especially when all are working together as a team and focusing fire on 3-4 different ships. An act of teamwork like the one you mentioned would annihilate nearly any opposing group provided they stick around to receive the punishment. Space Invaders Movie Library - [SPVD]
Daesdemona	Posted - 2003.10.03 17:00:00 - [209] Quote: To be honest I don't think there is any force that could stand up to that, especially when all are working together as a team and focusing fire on 3-4 different ships. An act of teamwork like the one you mentioned would annihilate nearly any opposing group provided they stick around to receive the punishment. See the issue is that most don't understand is that doing this is not that difficult. Just requires commitment and coordination, something that is hard to find in large numbers. Also, this would take advantage of the fact that you KNOW where the pirates are, you KNOW they are busy with other things at that moment and you need to hit em HARD, FAST before they know what hit em. ----------------------------------------------- Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?" Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't" -----------------------------------------------
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.03 17:30:00 - [210] Quote: Aw, I was hoping it was uberarmor. But shield transfer is very clever too. Tanking the guns - that's the ticket! You've been adding 3 jumps on avarage to my agent missions in lonetrek, cause I always go around the blockade... Well according to TomB it is still possible to make an incredible armor tank. Just not sure it's possible to repair the damage done by a sentry gun as fast as it deals it. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Daesdemona	Posted - 2003.10.03 17:31:00 - [211] all you need is 3 xL shield boosters and the power to maintain em on. ----------------------------------------------- Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?" Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't" -----------------------------------------------
Indigo Seqi	Posted - 2003.10.03 18:30:00 - [212] Edited by: Indigo Seqi on 03/10/2003 18:30:37 Daes, don't you think we would notice 15 battleships sitting at 120km distance? :)
Mynobe Soletae	Posted - 2003.10.03 18:41:00 - [213] Let's say you're trying to run a blockade, right? What's the first thing you should keep in mind? "If you get involved in a fight, the gates won't let you jump and the stations won't let you dock." So why the hell would you return fire?
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.03 18:58:00 - [214] Quote: Let's say you're trying to run a blockade, right? What's the first thing you should keep in mind? "If you get involved in a fight, the gates won't let you jump and the stations won't let you dock." So why the hell would you return fire? I honestly can't think of a single good reason. But some people try it anyway :/ .
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.03 19:03:00 - [215] Quote: Quote: Let's say you're trying to run a blockade, right? What's the first thing you should keep in mind? "If you get involved in a fight, the gates won't let you jump and the stations won't let you dock." So why the hell would you return fire? I honestly can't think of a single good reason. But some people try it anyway :/ So they can get the "I shot at a Pirate and all I got was a pod juice covered t-shirt" t-shirt. If you're gonna run, run. If you're gonna fight, fight. If you're gonna try to do both, pay your insurance premium. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Mynobe Soletae	Posted - 2003.10.03 19:07:00 - [216] Oh yeah, and I guess CCP's AI has A LOT to learn from EQ, where healing the tank draws so much hate from the NPC's that they switch to you and stay there, despite the tank's best efforts to taunt them back onto himself.
Archain	Posted - 2003.10.03 19:10:00 - [217] Actually, Shadowthrone did benefit by shooting us yesterday. We spent too long negotiating and he took someone out before getting away. It doesn't happen too often, but he managed to break away, I have to give him his props. Space Invaders Movie Library - [SPVD]
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.03 19:10:00 - [218] Quote: Oh yeah, and I guess CCP's AI has A LOT to learn from EQ, where healing the tank draws so much hate from the NPC's that they switch to you and stay there, despite the tank's best efforts to taunt them back onto himself. What AI? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Zaxx	Posted - 2003.10.03 19:13:00 - [219] Seems like nothing more than excellent strategy and planning to me... And nice vid Archain!
Indigo Seqi	Posted - 2003.10.03 19:38:00 - [220] Quote: Oh yeah, and I guess CCP's AI has A LOT to learn from EQ, where healing the tank draws so much hate from the NPC's that they switch to you and stay there, despite the tank's best efforts to taunt them back onto himself. Although it's totally uncompareable in the first place, warrior taunting is borked as hell :P
Sexxsi	Posted - 2003.10.03 20:34:00 - [221] so has anyone come up with a way to fight back at these blockades yet? I was destroyed by a sentry gun when I fought back. Any solution for this? If not, I'm still considering it an exploit.
Drutort	Posted - 2003.10.04 19:34:00 - [222] Edited by: Drutort on 04/10/2003 19:35:10 Quote: so has anyone come up with a way to fight back at these blockades yet? I was destroyed by a sentry gun when I fought back. Any solution for this? If not, I'm still considering it an exploit. right now, the shield transfer isnt an exploit, Yet... but i do not think CCP meant for players to be able to keep up something as long as they wish and have the sentries be completely useless... with that said, if the ppl use the tactic of warping out and letting the sentries fire on you, i call that an exploit, but CCP will not because they cant go and stop every person that warps out after having attacked someone and leaving that person to get blown up by the sentry guns... Until CCP changes the AI, so that like either more sentry guns spawn or the sentry guns after some time start to pick on other ships, or say form of a SWAT comes in after the sentry guns have failed to destroy anyone and havenÆt stopped firing... All i can say is nothing can be done and CCP will not say that this is an exploit... and with that any people can USE this at the time, UNTIL CCP says no... in my own view both are exploits, to a point... because both use the games mechanics to get an advantage, but that is my own opinion, and the only thing the people who are using can say in there defense is that CCP didnt call it an exploit yet so we can use it. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Lola	Posted - 2003.10.04 20:41:00 - [223] /me slams face into keyboard numerous times n mn nm bm b b,c mnb,m b bm bn bn ok, I feel better. Drutort, never attack someone who hasn't attacked you. Don't try to rescue the sentry gun. Feel free to attack anyone who does attack you. Feel free to attack anyone with -5 security. Feel free to make a run for the gate. Feel free to go around the blockade. If you see a bright green dot on your "pods killed" map don't go to that system. If you're foolish enough to go there and see 10 pirates on local don't just jump to any random gate. Pirates are supposed to be able to blockade in this game. You can either pay the toll or get a large enough force to make the pirates go away. With the specialized loadouts they will be using it should be pretty easy, given a large enough force, to run the pirates off. Always remember: 1.0-0.5 = safe, 0.4-0.0 = not safe. Now can we stop beating this poor dead horse? It's starting to look like soup. ----------------------------------------- Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas.

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