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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:02:00 -
[1]
Evidently nothing we propose or say on this forum gets listened to. The original design specifications - that is to say, the Maelstrom is a ******* big pile of absolute utter ****, outclassed by all of the other Tier 3 BSes even *with* the Hyperion having one dodgy bonus.
This game's never going to be balanced until the devs admit that split slot layouts suck, and that going 5 m/s faster than other ships doesn't make up for having a small cap and low base hp.
Scrapheap Challenge Forums |
Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:03:00 -
[2]
\o/ no more Mr Nice Testy
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Stamm
Amarr
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:05:00 -
[3]
Hmm. I'd ask for your stuff, but it's all rusty Minmatar stuff.
Seriously though, is this you saying 'If I can't get my way, then I quit!' or a Cartmanesque 'Screw you guys, I'm going home'.
The game isn't massively unbalanced, it's not unplayable. It needs a lot of work in a lot of places, but it probably always will, I can't remember a game that didn't.
What do you know of the low base hps or low cap on the Maelstrom? Have more stats been finalised that I've not seen?
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Valea Silpha
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:05:00 -
[4]
The Minnie Avenger returns 
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing
<Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:05:00 -
[5]
have you flown one yet?
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:06:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 02/08/2006 23:06:55
Sighs. Made me laugh3e and there went my table. 
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Patience is a quality that most people seem to lack.
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Guillame Herschel
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:09:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Testy Mctest
Evidently nothing we propose or say on this forum gets listened to.
No kidding! How dare they release Tier 3 BS in this sorry condition.
Oh wait...
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Eximius Josari
Shadow Reavers
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:13:00 -
[8]
10% Falloff 7.5% Tracking
8/7/4
I think the issue mainly with the Maelstrom is it has 8 guns. This takes away some of its versatility since it will by definition have no 'extra' hi slots. I'd be happy with 6 guns 2 launchers and a 5% dmg bonus with either a velocity bonus (8/6/6) or a shield bonus (could be boost, resist, or even hp as long as it got 8/7/5).
Victory is the weakness of the enemy. |
Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:15:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/08/2006 23:18:26
Not really, it means we've lost all hope in CCP.
Quote:
Maelstrom med slots, the argument I've seen so far is that it needs at least 3 slots for speed mod, webbie and a scrambler, anything less than 4 slots is too little to tank with. I recognize that logic but we intend the Maelstrom to be a shield tanking artillery boat, relying on other ships to tackle for you. Then again shield boost bonus isn't really terribly effective in fleets where you have potentially a lot of ships firing at you and damage output exceeds your tank's absorption by a wide margin. That's basically the reasoning for changing the Moa's shield boost bonus to resistance bonus originally.
My understanding of this quote is in simple terms:
Designed for solo purpose of Arty.
Arty is accepted as mostly fleet battles.
In fleet battles shield boost bonus is ineffective.
So, point in the tier 3 minmatar ship? Very little. All the time the 3 other ships have a role and bonus/layout designed for that role. Ie Hyperions bonus's keep getting changed to make it a great blaster ship thats as quick as a Tempest... removing the advanatages of that ship. Just cos ships a tier 3 doesn't mean instant win. The Domi is tier 1, why has that not been nerfed for pawning tier 2's? Just cos ships are new and a higher tier doesn't mean better, it means a new role.
When minmatar tier 3 and caldari tier 3 with the same roles and type of tank are released we will see how "balanced" they are. It's quite obvious to most with very little reasonable arguement against them having the same sort of layouts with the same role in mind. This for me will show CCP's idea of balance.
gah, I feel like i'm just wasting virtual breath.
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Originally by: "Lord Violent"
EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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inSpirAcy
Caldari
The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:16:00 -
[10]
Try to keep things in perspective.
You may not think that CCP makes all the right choices but EVE is still very playable in its current state. Despite little niggles here and there, CCP has never made a game-breaking change like SOE did with Planetside. They utterly destroyed that game in spite of repeated warnings by the player base because they thought they knew best.
It's unfair to say that the devs never listen to the community because you don't know that; on the contrary, they've said and demonstrated on many occasions that they do. EVE has some of the best developer/player relations that I've seen in any online game.
Give them their due credit. Very few of the current in-game ships are borked beyond reason and I daresay that none of the upcoming ones will be either. To base your comments on the "original design specifications" is just plain silly. If I were to develop a new ship it would almost certainly be to the distaste of 90% of the player base. Much tweaking and balancing will happen before it will even satisfy half.
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wierchas noobhunter
Caldari
The Collective
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:17:00 -
[11]
i fell your pain 
join col ! now |
Stamm
Amarr
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:18:00 -
[12]
Who says shield boost is ineffective in fleet battles? I know I don't.
10 v 10, if you get tagged as primary and you're armour tanking, what do you do? Desperately try to warp, but realistically just get ready to take your pod out.
If you're shield tanking, what do you do? You hit the button that rapidly turns all of your available cap into shields, and hope that's enough to get you out. You've miles more chance than the armour tanker.
Stick 2 shield boosters on their instead of a shield booster and an amp. Soon as you hit that button you get instant shields. Fair enough if it's a lagfest you'll get no benefit. But if it's a midsized fleet battle you will get a benefit from it. Running 2 XL shield boosters will turn a LOT of capacitor into shields in a very fast amount of time.
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Shi Mun
Caldari
Aurora Development Corp
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:18:00 -
[13]
I get ignored all the time... I make EW suggestions and nobody ever listens...
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My EW suggestions:-
EW suggestions |
Tiuwaz
Minmatar
Omacron Militia
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:19:00 -
[14]
I think its a bit too early to wave the flag, gonna have to see when we get the final release stats
i am not expecting too much tough
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Stamm
Amarr
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
I think its a bit too early to wave the flag, gonna have to see when we get the final release stats
i am not expecting too much tough
Well, there's reason to cross your fingers and hope. Notice in Tux's blog he specifically mentioned the uproar in the forums. Kind of has to mean he takes note of them. Can't really expect him to post because it'll just turn everything into a Tuxford Tuxford Tuxford attention fest. But I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and say he does read and think about what is said on the forums.
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Nafri
Caldari
Cataclysm Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:24:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Stamm
Who says shield boost is ineffective in fleet battles? I know I don't.
10 v 10, if you get tagged as primary and you're armour tanking, what do you do? Desperately try to warp, but realistically just get ready to take your pod out.
If you're shield tanking, what do you do? You hit the button that rapidly turns all of your available cap into shields, and hope that's enough to get you out. You've miles more chance than the armour tanker.
Stick 2 shield boosters on their instead of a shield booster and an amp. Soon as you hit that button you get instant shields. Fair enough if it's a lagfest you'll get no benefit. But if it's a midsized fleet battle you will get a benefit from it. Running 2 XL shield boosters will turn a LOT of capacitor into shields in a very fast amount of time.
Try to fit 2 XL shield Boosters, thats more than 400 CPU for tech2 version
and when you targeted by 5 ships, your shield will instapop
From Dusk till Dawn
Sig removed, e-mail us if you'd like to know why. -ReverendM ([email protected]) |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:25:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 02/08/2006 23:31:18
Ships we dont like happen. I dont like lots of ships, but that doesn't bother me. Im perfectly aware of the fact that Eve has a lot of 'different strokes for different folks' style ships. I fly a Bellicose, for example :S
What dev blogs like this, and test stats like the ones we saw (old as they may be, they shouldnt even have been CONCEPT stats they were so bad) say to me, is that there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the game among the people who develop it. Minmatar have *always* been iffy. Yes, Minnie ships have their uses, and yes, we dont need perfect balance to have an enjoyable, playable game. But when you can design ships like the Rokh and Abaddon, and then a ship like the Maelstrom, which has a VERY narrow vision of what it should be (shield tanked arty platform) and have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE how to implement that vision, there's something wrong.
Look at the Rokh. It in no way needs the amount of slots it's getting, but it will get them anyway most likely, because it's Caldari. We actually need some thought to go into the Minmatar ship - but instead, we'll be lumbered with not-enough-midslots because it's Minmatar. Fluff is all well and good, but when fluff creates an underlying game imbalance, then it needs to be changed.
As Weirda's said elsewhere, ships should get slot layouts that SUPPORT their bonuses. Even if we had our bonus changed to passive, 6 mids would still be a joke compared to what the other ship are intended to be getting. It would still be a sub-par ship. We STILL have all the disadvantages of being Minmatar - split hp (despite being a shield tanker!), poor total hp, poor cap - and with the Maelstrom, we dont even get any of our usual "advantages" (not that an extra 20m/s or so has ever been a real advantage, but at least before they always at least pretended that it was). So we get the worst bits, and we dont even get our usual ****ty compensation.
It's ridiculous that we still have to put up with this ****. "It will need another ship to tackle for it" is all well and good, but when it's in a fleet and it's left with 1-2 slots to tank with after it fits sensor boosters and tracking? Then it's gimped. Whereas the Rokh will quite happily fit into it's tanking role (and be better thanks to a better bonus), as well as fit better into a fleet (since it'll have the extra mid to fit all that fleet goodness).
Sort yourselves out. Stop trying to fob us off with this design theory bull****, and give us a ship that works.
Scrapheap Challenge Forums |
Tiuwaz
Minmatar
Omacron Militia
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:29:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Stamm
Who says shield boost is ineffective in fleet battles? I know I don't.
10 v 10, if you get tagged as primary and you're armour tanking, what do you do? Desperately try to warp, but realistically just get ready to take your pod out.
If you're shield tanking, what do you do? You hit the button that rapidly turns all of your available cap into shields, and hope that's enough to get you out. You've miles more chance than the armour tanker.
Stick 2 shield boosters on their instead of a shield booster and an amp. Soon as you hit that button you get instant shields. Fair enough if it's a lagfest you'll get no benefit. But if it's a midsized fleet battle you will get a benefit from it. Running 2 XL shield boosters will turn a LOT of capacitor into shields in a very fast amount of time.
huhu lets say you load up on 2xl booster and 1 extra amp, giving you about 1072,5 hp per cycle, thats 2140~hp lets say everyone is so nice and allows you to live a full 5 secs longer for a 2nd cycle thats 4280 hp boosted
a SINGLE 1600 armour plate gives you 4200hp with hull upgrades 5
so i have used 3 slots to achieve the same hp buffer i get with a SINGLE 1600 t2 plate, and i have to survive 6 secs, must pray that i dont get module lag and have to have quick reflexes as soon as i get fired at, sorry i fail to see the usefullness of a shield tank here
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:33:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 02/08/2006 23:31:18
Ships we dont like happen. I dont like lots of ships, but that doesn't bother me. Im perfectly aware of the fact that Eve has a lot of 'different strokes for different folks' style ships. I fly a Bellicose, for example :S
What dev blogs like this, and test stats like the ones we saw (old as they may be, they shouldnt even have been CONCEPT stats they were so bad) say to me, is that there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the game among the people who develop it. Minmatar have *always* been iffy. Yes, Minnie ships have their uses, and yes, we dont need perfect balance to have an enjoyable, playable game. But when you can design ships like the Rokh and Abaddon, and then a ship like the Maelstrom, which has a VERY narrow vision of what it should be (shield tanked arty platform) and have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE how to implement that vision, there's something wrong.
Look at the Rokh. It in no way needs the amount of slots it's getting, but it will get them anyway most likely, because it's Caldari. We actually need some thought to go into the Minmatar ship - but instead, we'll be lumbered with not-enough-midslots because it's Minmatar. Fluff is all well and good, but when fluff creates an underlying game imbalance, then it needs to be changed.
As Weirda's said elsewhere, ships should get slot layouts that SUPPORT their bonuses. Even if we had our bonus changed to passive, 6 mids would still be a joke compared to what the other ship are intended to be getting. It would still be a sub-par ship. We STILL have all the disadvantages of being Minmatar - split hp (despite being a shield tanker!), poor total hp, poor cap - and with the Maelstrom, we dont even get any of our usual "advantages" (not that an extra 20m/s or so has ever been a real advantage, but at least before they always at least pretended that it was). So we get the worst bits, and we dont even get our usual ****ty compensation.
It's ridiculous that we still have to put up with this ****. "It will need another ship to tackle for it" is all well and good, but when it's in a fleet and it's left with 1-2 slots to tank with after it fits sensor boosters and tracking? Then it's gimped. Whereas the Rokh will quite happily fit into it's tanking role (and be better thanks to a better bonus), as well as fit better into a fleet (since it'll have the extra mid to fit all that fleet goodness).
Sort yourselves out. Stop trying to fob us off with this design theory bull****, and give us a ship that works.
I thought you had given up...
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I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:33:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 02/08/2006 23:34:02
Originally by: Tuxford
Maelstrom med slots, the argument I've seen so far is that it needs at least 3 slots for speed mod, webbie and a scrambler, anything less than 4 slots is too little to tank with. I recognize that logic but we intend the Maelstrom to be a shield tanking artillery boat
Oh, and did all the bits about IT NEEDS DECENT MIDSLOTS TO SNIPE BECAUSE WE NEED TO USE TRACKING COMPUTERS, AND SENSOR BOOSTERS, AS WELL AS SHIELD TANK THE SHIP TO MAKE USE OF IT'S **** BONUS just get missed out there somewhere along the way?
We're not all flying a ******* golden child race that doesn't need to track with it's guns, you know.
Scrapheap Challenge Forums |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Dixon
I thought you had given up...
**** off, you little *****. Learn to play the game and stop pretending you understand a single thing about, well, anything.
Scrapheap Challenge Forums |
Randay
Band of Builders Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:36:00 -
[22]
Maybe its because your name is TESTY MCTEST. Why don't you spend some time MCTESTing the f'in ship before you start whining.
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Apparently the Swedish language is against the rules of the forums. |
inSpirAcy
Caldari
The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:37:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
*** off, you little *****. Learn to play the game and stop pretending you understand a single thing about, well, anything.
Now we're seeing the true colours. 
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Famine Aligher'ri
V i L e
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:39:00 -
[24]
I sure hope CCP doesn't design a ship based on 1 opinion.
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Vile - Recruiting 0.0 Pirates |
Eximius Josari
Shadow Reavers
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:41:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Originally by: Dixon
I thought you had given up...
**** off, you little *****. Learn to play the game and stop pretending you understand a single thing about, well, anything.
Dont forget to breathe.
Victory is the weakness of the enemy. |
Outa Rileau
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:42:00 -
[26]
What is this with "OMG WE WANT 7 DMIS NWO NOW NOW!!11" sh*t? I've been tanking my raven with 6 midslots for a long long time...
I even know people who shield tank tempests with no problems 
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Getting Sig Removed / Rank 8 / SP: 762039 of 2048000 
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Stamm
Amarr
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Stamm
Who says shield boost is ineffective in fleet battles? I know I don't.
10 v 10, if you get tagged as primary and you're armour tanking, what do you do? Desperately try to warp, but realistically just get ready to take your pod out.
If you're shield tanking, what do you do? You hit the button that rapidly turns all of your available cap into shields, and hope that's enough to get you out. You've miles more chance than the armour tanker.
Stick 2 shield boosters on their instead of a shield booster and an amp. Soon as you hit that button you get instant shields. Fair enough if it's a lagfest you'll get no benefit. But if it's a midsized fleet battle you will get a benefit from it. Running 2 XL shield boosters will turn a LOT of capacitor into shields in a very fast amount of time.
Try to fit 2 XL shield Boosters, thats more than 400 CPU for tech2 version
and when you targeted by 5 ships, your shield will instapop
Use T1 named then. And as for the 5 ships instapop? Not so. Sure, 50 and you won't even see them go from yellow to red. But if it's 5 ships you'll see your shields getting peeled away pretty fast - but not fast enough that you can't hit your boosters.
Perhaps 2 XL shield boosters are too much, play around with stuff, try shield boost amps and a single XL. Or 2 large shield boosters. Shield boosting is instant, and there's a much quicker cooldown time. Minmatar aren't about sustainable tanks, and slow steady DPS, they're about fast ganks.
If you offered me two choices for PvP. 1) A tank that lasts forever, but can be broken with a bit of focused fire, or a high DPS BS shooting me. or 2) A tank that is ridiculously strong for 60 seconds and then falls apart.... I'll take option 2.
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KilROCK
Minmatar
Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.02 23:47:00 -
[28]
Hey, I was already ahead of you at acknoledging the fact Tuxford isn't all that great.
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Fogy
Caldari
Euphoria Released
Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.08.03 00:02:00 -
[29]
@ OP:
1. Have a chill pill.
2. How can you dropp to so far down on the smack scale?
3. How can you go so mental over some thing thats not in game yett.. and thats not even finished yett?
4. theres newer been a thing in this game that CCP havent tweaked or fixed abit after a while (some times; a good while.. but anyways), into ballance, boosted or nerfed.
5. Have a cookie!
Cheers!
Fogy
"From my rotting boddy flowers shall grow and I am in them, and that is eternity"
New Direction New Area New Victims |
Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.08.03 00:06:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/08/2006 00:10:18
Originally by: Stamm
Artillery does not equal sniper. You don't need tracking mods or sensor boosters to use it. In addition, you can put these mods on your low slots, less effective, but they use less cap and CPU. That's really all I have to add.
Depends on what you term sniper range but if you expect to hit with arty with any consistancy at mid range (less than sniper), well i'll laugh.
EDIT: I do have to say, go to bed Testy. Although I understand, all the time and reasoning put in to get "well this is a 1 role ship so no" when that role and current stats are rubbish for that role is infuriating.
Finaly edit: If after 3 years the theory behind new ships are still so "out there" serious question should be asked. In his own post which I quoted he practically says the bonus is useless due to the sole role given to the ship. That gives me a slight hope that:
a) the ships role won't be so constrained.
b) the bonus will change.
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Originally by: "Lord Violent"
EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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