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Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 683	Posted - 2014.11.05 17:23:26 - [61] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Once again. Missile should apply full damage to size appropriate hulls without fittings. Medium missiles should not apply perfectly to frigates, but should apply well to destroyers, and perfectly to unfit cruisers before skills or links. Reasons why setting missile explosion velocity and signature size to the average of unfit size appropriate hulls makes sense ABs should be able to create some damage reduction if unwebbed, and MWDs should create substantial reduction if unwebbed. They are still relative velocity and position agnostic, which means substantially better application outside tackle range of most missiles It should be possible to create some damage mitigation without prop mod by speed fitting unusually fast hulls, like the slasher It should be possible to create some mitigation through running a fairly low signature ship without shield rigs or shield extenders Missiles should apply excellently to things with moderate tackle applied. Missiles should apply decently to painted ships of one to two categories smaller, but large missiles should still struggle to hit destroyers and frigates even if they are painted. I agree with everything you said except the bit I highlighted. Currently with turrets, ABs provide more damage reduction than MWDs do. What MWD-ing ships gain against turrets isn't a tracking-based reduction in damage, it's the ability to dictate range: the signature bloom balances the speed increase so applied damage stays the same. I feel the same should apply to missiles: no reduction to application for an active MWD, but increased speed means you can possibly out-range, or out-fly, incoming missiles. Other than that...spot on. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 423	Posted - 2014.11.05 17:31:14 - [62] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: OP, I agree with you that missiles could use some love in multiple regards (both internal balance and balance relative to turrets), but what you are proposing is simply too much. If you feel that missiles aren't applying sufficient damage, why not propose buffing their damage application stats instead of changing the underlying mechanics behind how missile damage is calculated? Do you remember the days of perfect application cruise missile Kestrels that would one-volley other frigates? CCP went out of their way to rectify that situation by changing missile mechanics, and what you're proposing would undo much of that rectification. I understand the notion that turrets and missiles should be different and fully support that notion. But granting one of the two full damage application would fundamentally alter both the balance of turrets and missiles and the balance of different-sized ships. -1 I wasn't there yet but my friends from college did tell me those stories. After some reading in our old forums back in the day this was the case when EVE was just born and nobody could have had any of the fittings skills at five. The Kestrels of the old are now the stealth bombers of the new age that sneak up on you and pod you back to the stoneage, if you get my drift. I get that you disagree and it's fine. I wasn't expecting much agreement and as I said last week even unpopular visions need to get heard. What I do not understand is that insta-canes are a thing, tornados are or were a thing too until bombers became more popular but a long range missile hitting a target is suddenly the end of the world. I explained just last week how no missile can ever do the full 100% damage because they were never designed that way, hence the two forgotten attributes of shield and armor reduction. Yes in a worse case scenario this may not end well but approaching a railgun in a straight line doesn't either. I get that in most of your minds you see the EFT volley damage of a 40km range torpedo on an unstoppable killing spree and as shocking as that my sound, 10 Ishtar will sentry that unstoppable Raven of the field before she even gets a lock on one. signature
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 40	Posted - 2014.11.05 18:28:28 - [63] - Quote elitatwo wrote: I am not here to explain EVE to everyone. Yet I explained numerous times now that this will not break EVE. You keep saying that, but I'm not sure you understand. Torpedos having perfect damage application against cruisers, destroyers and frigates, regardless of how fast they're moving. On a Raven with even middling skills, you're talking about 5900 damage volleys with rage torpedoes that can't be avoided at all. You mention defender missiles, but that cancels one missile (and doesn't even work well most of the time). That single-handedly takes all turret-fit cruisers out of the game, because as soon as a missile battleship shows up, they can't do anything. I get that you want your Raven Navy Issue, Phoenix and what-have-you to have no counters and dominate the field as soon as it lands, but you have to see that CCP does know enough about their game to know what kind of problems this will cause.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 214	Posted - 2014.11.05 18:50:37 - [64] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: James Baboli wrote: snip Reasons why setting missile explosion velocity and signature size to the average of unfit size appropriate hulls makes sense ABs should be able to create some damage reduction if unwebbed, and MWDs should create substantial reduction if unwebbed. snip I agree with everything you said except the bit I highlighted. Currently with turrets, ABs provide more damage reduction than MWDs do. What MWD-ing ships gain against turrets isn't a tracking-based reduction in damage, it's the ability to dictate range: the signature bloom balances the speed increase so applied damage stays the same. I feel the same should apply to missiles: no reduction to application for an active MWD, but increased speed means you can possibly out-range, or out-fly, incoming missiles. Other than that...spot on. Which is where I would like to see a difference in the meta and mechanics. I would love to see MWDs partially negating damage of missiles, as currently they have the highest damage per effective weapon slot, but suffer from annoying application and the lack of "critical" hits. I get that out flying missiles is possible, but given that I want to then see them changed from chasing to a predictive model of movement, which means that against a ship in orbit they head for where it will be, rather than having to out speed the ship they are following, this would become increasingly hard. I did not mention that as currently the terrible application of successful volleys is the main issue. I am planning on proposing this change at least on large and XL missiles elsewhere although at present this part of the proposal is not live. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 2599	Posted - 2014.11.05 19:32:39 - [65] - Quote I have removed a rule breaking post and the one quoting it. The Rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 686	Posted - 2014.11.05 19:39:50 - [66] - Quote James Baboli wrote: given that I want to then see them changed from chasing to a predictive model of movement, which means that against a ship in orbit they head for where it will be, rather than having to out speed the ship they are following, this would become increasingly hard. While an interesting idea, and certainly realistic in terms of what real missiles do for tracking their targets, I'm not sure that the server-side calculations necessary for that would be a good thing for lag. I'd love to see CCP try it though. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 214	Posted - 2014.11.05 19:47:51 - [67] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: While an interesting idea, and certainly realistic in terms of what real missiles do for tracking their targets, I'm not sure that the server-side calculations necessary for that would be a good thing for lag. I'd love to see CCP try it though. I would too, and for ships which are on a constant vector or in a constant pattern like an orbit, the calculations are easier than continuing to run a chase formula, and decrease the time missiles hang about. Such a change would also lay the ground work for much more effective defenders, if CCP saw a value in improving this feature. It is only ships which change vector or pattern which give these missiles trouble, and this would lead to high agility ships like nano-fit ceptors literally dodging out of the missiles possible flight paths with good piloting. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
TheMercenaryKing StarFleet Enterprises Intrepid Crossing 304	Posted - 2014.11.05 19:59:45 - [68] - Quote http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/6a/8d/5e/6a8d5e2df29b383ce48e26cdb58c3fdb.jpg
M1k3y Koontz Thorn Project Surely You're Joking 611	Posted - 2014.11.06 00:05:38 - [69] - Quote Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Dia'Sarbator wrote: Duchess Starbuckington wrote: So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times. Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets... Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS. Honestly speaking ... Missles just need a 15 ish % boast in raw dmg across the board for a couple of reasons... #1 They have a delayed Alpha that needs to be made up for #2 They never have the ability of applying their full Damage. 15 % ish should bring them a lot closer to where gunnery is. 1.) Missiles always hit targets within range. 2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. A drake applies full damage to another drake, when that drake is appropriately scram webbed. Against a cruiser, the ship usually needs 2x webs. I'm not opposed to CCP reviewing and tweaking missiles as appropriate, but I trust they have a better understanding of what the appropriate equivalent stats are. As for the Op... He's a troll, because no self respecting veteran would propose such blatantly absurd changes. 1. Not true, if your target is orbiting you your missiles must chase that target, reducing effective range. If your target is burning away from you, ie is a kiting ship (like 90% of smallish fights these days) your missiles will not be acting in their full range. 2: Cruisers use the same missiles as battlecruisers (HAMs), and a Caracal can't afford two mids to web a target, plus a point and MWD, that leaves just one slot for tank. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 424	Posted - 2014.11.06 00:22:42 - [70] - Quote M1k3y Koontz wrote: -snip- 1. Not true, if your target is orbiting you your missiles must chase that target, reducing effective range. If your target is burning away from you, ie is a kiting ship (like 90% of smallish fights these days) your missiles will not be acting in their full range. finally! Thank you dear. Yes that was what I was going for by "outrunning". As soon as a missile runs out of flight time the missile will be removed from the database - 100% application or not that missile will do zero damage. M1k3y Koontz wrote: 2: Cruisers use the same missiles as battlecruisers (HAMs), and a Caracal can't afford two mids to web a target, plus a point and MWD, that leaves just one slot for tank. Very true! Just ask fidelis constance on their take on (already) 100% application missiles on Caracals. Using 100% or 1% application HAMs wouldn't do much difference if you get kited at 40+ km and chasing a much faster target. What I have very carefully considered is movement on the field. So 100% application or not that 90km max range on my Sacilege is becoming a lot shorter than on any theoretical fitting tool. In case you were wondering, most fights do not happen in gatecamps and if you ever have engaged in small gang warfare you may have noticed that moving around is cruicial. signature

afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 457	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:03:22 - [71] - Quote Gizznitt Malikite wrote: 2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. A drake applies full damage to another drake, when that drake is appropriately scram webbed. Against a cruiser, the ship usually needs 2x webs. Come now, I need to scram web a shield tanked battlecruiser, in order to get full [utterly anaemic] DPS onto it with a cruiser size weapon? Whilst the fact that is nearly true is depressing, it is not reasonable. If the DPS was insane, I could get behind it, but it is not. Low base DPS coupled with terrible application is a horrid place to be in. Your drake examples just nails the point home further. Imagine if turrets needed to be shooting up a size class AND need the target scram/webbed to break 200 dps....
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 427	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:18:31 - [72] - Quote afkalt wrote: Gizznitt Malikite wrote: 2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. A drake applies full damage to another drake, when that drake is appropriately scram webbed. Against a cruiser, the ship usually needs 2x webs. Come now, I need to scram web a shield tanked battlecruiser, in order to get full [utterly anaemic] DPS onto it with a cruiser size weapon? Whilst the fact that is nearly true is depressing, it is not reasonable. If the DPS was insane, I could get behind it, but it is not. Low base DPS coupled with terrible application is a horrid place to be in. Your drake examples just nails the point home further. Imagine if turrets needed to be shooting up a size class AND need the target scram/webbed to break 200 dps.... With that image in mind let's do another example with that HAM Drake and she is chasing a blaster Deimos which is shooting null M. That maximum range of 20km for the HAMs will be more close to 5-7km range in this case. Or that 45km range on a Cerberus will be more close to 22-30km range. signature
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1979	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:26:55 - [73] - Quote M1k3y Koontz wrote: 1. Not true, if your target is orbiting you your missiles must chase that target, reducing effective range. If your target is burning away from you, ie is a kiting ship (like 90% of smallish fights these days) your missiles will not be acting in their full range. elitatwo wrote: With that image in mind let's do another example with that HAM Drake and she is chasing a blaster Deimos which is shooting null M. That maximum range of 20km for the HAMs will be more close to 5-7km range in this case. Or that 45km range on a Cerberus will be more close to 22-30km range. It should be noted that if you are in a missile ship and your opponent is chasing you, a missile's range is effectively increased. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
M1k3y Koontz Thorn Project Surely You're Joking 611	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:33:43 - [74] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: M1k3y Koontz wrote: 1. Not true, if your target is orbiting you your missiles must chase that target, reducing effective range. If your target is burning away from you, ie is a kiting ship (like 90% of smallish fights these days) your missiles will not be acting in their full range. elitatwo wrote: With that image in mind let's do another example with that HAM Drake and she is chasing a blaster Deimos which is shooting null M. That maximum range of 20km for the HAMs will be more close to 5-7km range in this case. Or that 45km range on a Cerberus will be more close to 22-30km range. It should be noted that if you are in a missile ship and your opponent is chasing you, a missile's range is effectively increased. This is true, but as soon as they start dying, they can turn around and run away, negating that range bonus into a range penalty. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1979	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:37:50 - [75] - Quote M1k3y Koontz wrote: This is true, but as soon as they start dying, they can turn around and run away, negating that range bonus into a range penalty. either way its a two way sword and should be considered neither an advantage nor disadvantage. it is exactly the same as wrecking/miss arguments for/against turrets. they are exactly one for one and neither a benefit nor penalty. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 427	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:39:13 - [76] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: ...It should be noted that if you are in a missile ship and your opponent is chasing you, a missile's range is effectively increased. Hmm.. Let's say I am in HAM Drake and get chased by an arty-cane or five let's be more realistic . Let's also imagine I am not very good and do not notice that the canes that are chasing me are at 50km and closing in are not pointing me. So here I am looking for a gate or some other celestial to warp to. If the client does show it correctly and missile get launched in a straight line, they would have to make a turn to chase at least one of the canes. That "turn" does take missile flight time of the missiles and they have to accelerate first. At first glance this would still decrease the range but I have to look into this on SiSi first. signature
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1979	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:44:12 - [77] - Quote turning yes. but thats turning. just the same when you are chasing an opponent who is not flying directly away your missiles track ahead of him slightly (not perfectly) to minimise distance lost to a moving target. this is why missiles start spasming when tracking extremely fast targets (like light drones orbiting with MWD's still active) EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 427	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:53:10 - [78] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: turning yes. but thats turning. just the same when you are chasing an opponent who is not flying directly away your missiles track ahead of him slightly (not perfectly) to minimise distance lost to a moving target. They do have some motion prediction. this is why missiles start spasming when tracking extremely fast targets (like light drones orbiting with MWD's still active) I will look into that tomorrow when SiSi is a little more populated. A little sidenote: When cruise missiles were buffed and battleships got their changes I did shoot at a Dominix that was 50km away. He did a mjd jump but he was still in my lock range and my cruise missile made a funny "loop" and still hit him. signature
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 459	Posted - 2014.11.06 07:53:36 - [79] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: M1k3y Koontz wrote: This is true, but as soon as they start dying, they can turn around and run away, negating that range bonus into a range penalty. either way its a two way sword and should be considered neither an advantage nor disadvantage. it is exactly the same as wrecking/miss arguments for/against turrets. they are exactly one for one and neither a benefit nor penalty. It is, but it sure would be great if they got it more consistent, the Mordu missiles work well for that reason.
Mike Whiite Geuzen Inc 359	Posted - 2014.11.06 12:44:45 - [80] - Quote the OP's idea isn't something I'd approve of. That said, Missiles need some tinkering. one problem is the relative limited ways to tinker with the formula, which makes it rather hard to adjust every time some adjustment is made on ships and modules. rigs are the only way to passively adjust explosion radius and velocity for instance. this has as a side effect that almost every balance step made turns out in missiles being over or underpowered. lets set aside the changes that directly affected missiles, we all know them or should know them if you're entering this discussion. cruisers and lower got a speed buff (making it harder to hit those ships for full) armor got a little faster a large amount of ships got their signature reduced. I know that effects Turrets as well, but a turrets have better ways to adjust to those changes and because of the complexity of the turret formula, some of those changes weight less on a turret than on a missile launcher. then there was the buff of medium long range turrets after the nerf of heavy missile. just to name a few that affected the state of missiles in general. and then there are a few side issues that not leave the impression missiles are loved by CCP at this moment. We still have the semi finished Rapid launchers (still no way to switch ammo types in a reasonable time) and missile training takes an idiotic amount of time, compared to turret training especially now the restrictions on the turret tree are dropped. and for a weapon system that has as an advantage that it can do multiple amounts of damage it has way to much hulls that have a specific damage bonus.

Kesthely Fleet of the Damned Ace of Spades. 161	Posted - 2014.11.06 17:31:17 - [81] - Quote ISD Ezwal wrote: Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion. So you have to bother us with this.... Nope sorry i honestly can't say this is an Idea With this troll?
War Kitten Panda McLegion 5454	Posted - 2014.11.06 17:53:43 - [82] - Quote Damn, I was hoping for a thread insisting that missiles all have proper street addresses and postal codes in order to deliver their payload. Imagine my reaction when the actual OP was even sillier.... I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 40	Posted - 2014.11.06 18:35:53 - [83] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Let's also imagine I am not very good and do not notice that the canes that are chasing me are at 50km and closing in are not pointing me. So here I am looking for a gate or some other celestial to warp to. If you have to keep building in cases like these into your argument, then you need to take a closer look at your argument. Also, almost all of your arguments are cases where missiles aren't good, and you're ignoring all of their positive sides.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 429	Posted - 2014.11.06 19:09:29 - [84] - Quote War Kitten wrote: .. street addresses and postal codes in order to deliver their payload..... As you wish.. signature
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 2624	Posted - 2014.11.06 19:30:45 - [85] - Quote I have removed a rule breaking post. The Rules: 12. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited. The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a support ticket under the Community & Forums Category. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Gawain Edmond Angry Mustellid The Periphery 104	Posted - 2014.11.06 19:49:41 - [86] - Quote Agatir Solenth wrote: I would equate this request up there with asking that all range limitations be taken away from all lasers. this is a rather good idea since lasers can only do em and thermal damage and are just beams of light there is no reason that they should have range limitations i fully support this idea and think it should be implimented immediatly i think this is so there for i am right and if you don't agree then watch out Beadle's About
scorchlikeshiswhiskey interstellar initiative Incorporated 330	Posted - 2014.11.06 20:31:50 - [87] - Quote Gawain Edmond wrote: Agatir Solenth wrote: I would equate this request up there with asking that all range limitations be taken away from all lasers. this is a rather good idea since lasers can only do em and thermal damage and are just beams of light there is no reason that they should have range limitations i fully support this idea and think it should be implimented immediatly i think this is so there for i am right and if you don't agree then watch out Beadle's About Yea! And since missiles use rocket engines, there is no reason they should have a max velocity, so they should continuously accelerate. Even if they did though, light speed artillery would still be the better sniper choice.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 430	Posted - 2014.11.06 22:50:30 - [88] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: ..If you have to keep building in cases like these into your argument, then you need to take a closer look at your argument. Also, almost all of your arguments are cases where missiles aren't good, and you're ignoring all of their positive sides. The only upside of missiles is that they do not need capacitor. Most of the launchers can shoot one damage type at once. Rapid launchers need an hour to load, reload or preload and as they are right now they are small electron blaster tracking medium neutron blasters with up to 100km range. Wanna know something funny? Stealth bombers are only popular because bombs need no tracking, haz 500% application and need no piloting, just a multi-client software that plays the game for humans. signature
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 43	Posted - 2014.11.07 03:35:39 - [89] - Quote elitatwo wrote: The only upside of missiles is that they do not need capacitor. Most of the launchers can shoot one damage type at once. Every missile-based ship I fly gets a bonus to either damage or rate-of-fire. It takes ten seconds to switch damage types. That's a huge bonus. You also usually have better range, for engagements with the same class of ship; ~20km HAMs as opposed to the ~3km of neutron blasters (or ~10km with null). Also, your missiles don't have reduced "tracking" based on your own movement, either. If an enemy ship is tracking you better, you can cut your afterburner on, for example, and you're still hitting him the same. As opposed to a blaster ship, where increasing your transversal velocity can penalize you, too. My only complaint is that the current missile ships can't have very much utility. You can't fit much EWar on a shield-tanked ship. Need more armor-tanked missile boats, to compensate.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 430	Posted - 2014.11.07 03:48:45 - [90] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Every missile-based ship I fly gets a bonus to either damage or rate-of-fire. It takes ten seconds to switch damage types. That's a huge bonus. You also usually have better range, for engagements with the same class of ship; ~20km HAMs as opposed to the ~3km of neutron blasters (or ~10km with null). My Brutix only takes five seconds to switch between void, null and antimatter, which is a huge bonus. And the same Brutix will kill a Drake regardless of missile application anytime. Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Also, your missiles don't have reduced "tracking" based on your own movement, either. If an enemy ship is tracking you better, you can cut your afterburner on, for example, and you're still hitting him the same. As opposed to a blaster ship, where increasing your transversal velocity can penalize you, too. Since we all know our ship always just suddenly appear somewhere and always have the upper hand, no matter what. There are no cases where your eating habbits, pant size, shoe color and all your exes will be reported a very long time before you get into harms way. This doesn't happen in EVE. So anytime you wonder of to low or nullsec and take a look how the systems look like there, it is totally random that you run into a "small gang" that surprisingly happens to be there to encourage you to go back to where you just came from. signature



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