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elitatwo Congregatio 308	Posted - 2014.09.19 23:45:00 - [1] - Quote In order to make this weapon system viable in all sizes for pvp again those explosion radius and velocity attributes need to go! No, - it will not be the end of EVE - it will not break the game - it will not solve the problems some players created - turrets have have zero to do with them - I do not want to join the CSM now or at any time - I am not joking - it is not up for discussion - you cannot have my stuff - I am not high - I will not change my mind for any amount of isk or solar systems Yes, - it can be quite powerful - it has counters - more than one - I know how the outcome will look like because I have been around for that long - before those attributes in question came - some changes to a handful of ships would need to be made - the benfits will be clear as soon as SiSi gets hit - you can ask me whatever might concern you - you can pm me Specific missile ranges that also need addressing: - Torpedos need a range increase of at least 100% of the current battleship level (Raven) - stealth bomber class ships would get cruise missiles instead of torpedos signature
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 420	Posted - 2014.09.19 23:45:02 - [2] - Quote In order to make this weapon system viable in all sizes for pvp again those explosion radius and velocity attributes need to go! No, - it will not be the end of EVE - it will not break the game - it will not solve the problems some players created - turrets have have zero to do with them - I do not want to join the CSM now or at any time - I am not joking - it is not up for discussion - you cannot have my stuff - I am not high - I will not change my mind for any amount of isk or solar systems Yes, - it can be quite powerful - it has counters - more than one - I know how the outcome will look like because I have been around for that long - before those attributes in question came - some changes to a handful of ships would need to be made - the benfits will be clear as soon as SiSi gets hit - you can ask me whatever might concern you - you can pm me Specific missile ranges that also need addressing: - Torpedos need a range increase of at least 100% of the current battleship level (Raven) - stealth bomber class ships would get cruise missiles instead of torpedos signature
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 2926	Posted - 2014.09.20 01:04:00 - [3] - Quote To clarify, are you asking that every type of missile be able to apply full damage to everything it can hit?
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 2980	Posted - 2014.09.20 01:04:07 - [4] - Quote To clarify, are you asking that every type of missile be able to apply full damage to everything it can hit?
elitatwo Congregatio 308	Posted - 2014.09.20 01:39:00 - [5] - Quote That is actually not what is going to happen. Let me take the Drake as an example of a missile boat. Let her also have heavy missiles. Let us assume that we got those attributes removed and we are shooting at shield fitted navy hurricane. For this example let's imagine the six launchers on the Drake are loaded with mjolnir missiles (used to be thunderbolt) and your launchers are grouped. Now the Drake fires her first volley* and the navy hurricane has you in her crosshairs at 15km. The volley that the six launchers add up to a total damage of 1100 hp EM damage (rounded guessed value). Being EVE that it is, the hurricane pilot is experienced in fitting a hurricane and has a medium neut and a rapid light launcher fitted. Of course he cannot stand Drakes and shoots back. Taking tech 2 fittings into account he will propably have fitted his ship to have an EM resistance of let's say 64%. Now a little math ( sorry), 1100 x (1 - 0.64) = 396. The combat 'log' will now show that the Drake hits you for 396hp EM damage. But hold on, why did I babble something about that terrible desicion of the hurricane pilot to fit a rapid launcher instead of another medium neut?? Sounds silly, right? Imagine that hurricane pilot was indeed knowing what he was doing and that rapid light launcher had defender missiles loaded that he was also shooting. Defender missiles do not need a target lock to do anything, so you can just press 'F2' to start spamming. Back to my Drake vs navy hurricane fight example, assume 2 heavy missiles were shot down from the rapid launchers defender missiles which would result in a total damage taken of 261hp EM damage. Look at that, those pesky heavy missiles do not look so scary as they looked just a minute ago. By the way, if you repeat that fight now on SiSi the 'log' of that same fight will show you values in the range of 'heavy missile hits for 96 damage...' And to answer your question, yes I do want full application all the time. Take another example how my Drake here will fare against a Taranis with links n such. Let the Taranis be 45km away from the Drake, the Drake in persuit of the Taranis. The Drake with a meta 3 mwd goes 1000m/s, the Taranis goes about 5200km. If the flight time of heavy missiles do not change they will try to follow and hit the Taranis for 15 seconds (I think, need to look that up). The Taranis pilot doesn't like his odds here and flies in a straight line away from the Drake. He can warp of, but let's assume he doesn't. I know the speed of heavy missiles is in the range of 5000m/s (need to look that up too). Being at that range, my missile first need to accelerate to 5000m/s and as they should fly in the direction of that Taranis. But as luck will have it, the missiles run out of (flight) time before they ever reach the Taranis and he now realizes that he can just warp away. signature
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 420	Posted - 2014.09.20 01:39:59 - [6] - Quote That is actually not what is going to happen. Let me take the Drake as an example of a missile boat. Let her also have heavy missiles. Let us assume that we got those attributes removed and we are shooting at shield fitted navy hurricane. For this example let's imagine the six launchers on the Drake are loaded with mjolnir missiles (used to be thunderbolt) and your launchers are grouped. Now the Drake fires her first volley* and the navy hurricane has you in her crosshairs at 15km. The volley that the six launchers add up to a total damage of 1100 hp EM damage (rounded guessed value). Being EVE that it is, the hurricane pilot is experienced in fitting a hurricane and has a medium neut and a rapid light launcher fitted. Of course he cannot stand Drakes and shoots back. Taking tech 2 fittings into account he will propably have fitted his ship to have an EM resistance of let's say 64%. Now a little math ( sorry), 1100 x (1 - 0.64) = 396. The combat 'log' will now show that the Drake hits you for 396hp EM damage. But hold on, why did I babble something about that terrible desicion of the hurricane pilot to fit a rapid launcher instead of another medium neut?? Sounds silly, right? Imagine that hurricane pilot was indeed knowing what he was doing and that rapid light launcher had defender missiles loaded that he was also shooting. Defender missiles do not need a target lock to do anything, so you can just press 'F2' to start spamming. Back to my Drake vs navy hurricane fight example, assume 2 heavy missiles were shot down from the rapid launchers defender missiles which would result in a total damage taken of 261hp EM damage. Look at that, those pesky heavy missiles do not look so scary as they looked just a minute ago. By the way, if you repeat that fight now on SiSi the 'log' of that same fight will show you values in the range of 'heavy missile hits for 96 damage...' And to answer your question, yes I do want full application all the time. Take another example how my Drake here will fare against a Taranis with links n such. Let the Taranis be 45km away from the Drake, the Drake in persuit of the Taranis. The Drake with a meta 3 mwd goes 1000m/s, the Taranis goes about 5200km. If the flight time of heavy missiles do not change they will try to follow and hit the Taranis for 15 seconds (I think, need to look that up). The Taranis pilot doesn't like his odds here and flies in a straight line away from the Drake. He can warp of, but let's assume he doesn't. I know the speed of heavy missiles is in the range of 5000m/s (need to look that up too). Being at that range, my missile first need to accelerate to 5000m/s and as they should fly in the direction of that Taranis. But as luck will have it, the missiles run out of (flight) time before they ever reach the Taranis and he now realizes that he can just warp away. signature
Lykouleon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1448	Posted - 2014.09.20 02:28:00 - [7] - Quote No. Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
elitatwo Congregatio 308	Posted - 2014.09.20 02:30:00 - [8] - Quote Lykouleon wrote: No. That is why you are not allowed to vote.. signature
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 2928	Posted - 2014.09.20 13:17:00 - [9] - Quote Well, giving a phoenix upwards of 90k alpha against every target in the game would be...different I suppose. Now, nobody uses defender missiles because they simply do not work effectively. Nor can you say missiles would be balanced entirely around interceptors being able to outrun them. If the drake had the taranis at 0, fired caldari navy scourge, which travel at slightly over 6km/s with my skills, then the taranis would be destroyed in a single hit. Given that no other weapon system completely ignores the size of your targets, why should missiles?
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 2980	Posted - 2014.09.20 13:17:49 - [10] - Quote Well, giving a phoenix upwards of 90k alpha against every target in the game would be...different I suppose. Now, nobody uses defender missiles because they simply do not work effectively. Nor can you say missiles would be balanced entirely around interceptors being able to outrun them. If the drake had the taranis at 0, fired caldari navy scourge, which travel at slightly over 6km/s with my skills, then the taranis would be destroyed in a single hit. Given that no other weapon system completely ignores the size of your targets, why should missiles?
Mallak Azaria GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 6195	Posted - 2014.09.20 13:21:00 - [11] - Quote lol what the hell is this? This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Iain Cariaba 346	Posted - 2014.09.20 15:35:00 - [12] - Quote Mallak Azaria wrote: lol what the hell is this? That is someone with no apparent clue on how missiles truly work coming up with ideas on how to fix them. OP has had a spree of poorly conceived ideas trying to fix things that aren't broken. Suspect OP's buddy decided to stop playing and gave OP his account, as no 2006 player should be as clueless as OP appears to be. Either that, or OP is troll. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem.
elitatwo Congregatio 311	Posted - 2014.09.20 16:38:00 - [13] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: lol what the hell is this? That is someone with no apparent clue on how missiles truly work coming up with ideas on how to fix them. OP has had a spree of poorly conceived ideas trying to fix things that aren't broken. Suspect OP's buddy decided to stop playing and gave OP his account, as no 2006 player should be as clueless as OP appears to be. Either that, or OP is troll. Careful what you say.. signature
elitatwo Congregatio 311	Posted - 2014.09.20 16:55:00 - [14] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: Well, giving a phoenix upwards of 90k alpha against every target in the game would be...different I suppose. Now, nobody uses defender missiles because they simply do not work effectively. Nor can you say missiles would be balanced entirely around interceptors being able to outrun them. If the drake had the taranis at 0, fired caldari navy scourge, which travel at slightly over 6km/s with my skills, then the taranis would be destroyed in a single hit. Given that no other weapon system completely ignores the size of your targets, why should missiles? Tough luck I suppose. As far as I have seen no Taranis is alone in space and it was a fictional example that this will not be the end of things. Yep and Moros that haz 100.000 alpha is fine, yes. Have recently seen a Leviathan that was shooting a few citadel torpedos? You should try dat out, you can speedtank them right now in a super. Maybe the kids should not use dreadnought class ships to run level 2 missions in lolsec. I cannot understand that noone else wants the power back that was taken from us. What I do understand is a bunch of worrier carebears that don't want to deal with challenges. I say this is important and I have said so many, many times in the past. This is no different. Let someone run values if you do not believe me. I know from experience that it will not be as bad as you think it will be. signature
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 420	Posted - 2014.09.20 16:55:46 - [15] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: Well, giving a phoenix upwards of 90k alpha against every target in the game would be...different I suppose. Now, nobody uses defender missiles because they simply do not work effectively. Nor can you say missiles would be balanced entirely around interceptors being able to outrun them. If the drake had the taranis at 0, fired caldari navy scourge, which travel at slightly over 6km/s with my skills, then the taranis would be destroyed in a single hit. Given that no other weapon system completely ignores the size of your targets, why should missiles? Tough luck I suppose. As far as I have seen no Taranis is alone in space and it was a fictional example that this will not be the end of things. Yep and Moros that haz 100.000 alpha is fine, yes. Have recently seen a Leviathan that was shooting a few citadel torpedos? You should try dat out, you can speedtank them right now in a super. Maybe the kids should not use dreadnought class ships to run level 2 missions in lolsec. I cannot understand that noone else wants the power back that was taken from us. {{Redacted personal attack. -- ISD LackOfFaith}} I say this is important and I have said so many, many times in the past. This is no different. Let someone run values if you do not believe me. I know from experience that it will not be as bad as you think it will be. signature
Iain Cariaba 348	Posted - 2014.09.20 17:45:00 - [16] - Quote elitatwo wrote: As far as I have seen no Taranis is alone in space and it was a fictional example that this will not be the end of things. The fact that you have not seen this further shows you haven't been playing for foe as long as that toon has been around. Regardless, the fact that you have not seen this does nothing to reduce its validity as an example. elitatwo wrote: Yep and Moros that haz 100.000 alpha is fine, yes. Yes, it is, because tracking speed means that 100k alpha can't hit anything with even a moderate transversal speed. elitatwo wrote: Have recently seen a Leviathan that was shooting a few citadel torpedos? You should try dat out, you can speedtank them right now in a super. So with your idea, that Leviathan would be able to apply its massive firepower to frigates. Why? Because explosion velocity and explosion radius are the missile form of a gun's tracking speed. elitatwo wrote: I cannot understand that noone else wants the power back that was taken from us. What I do understand is a bunch of worrier carebears that don't want to deal with challenges. What you want is not a return of some lost immaginary power that was allegedly taken from you. What you want would make missiles so overpowered that it would be suicide to use anything else in the game. Calling those who don't disagree with you "carebears that don't want to deal with challenges" makes about as much sense as trying to put lasers on a Drake. Oh, wait... Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem.
Iain Cariaba 599	Posted - 2014.09.20 17:45:52 - [17] - Quote elitatwo wrote: As far as I have seen no Taranis is alone in space and it was a fictional example that this will not be the end of things. The fact that you have not seen this further shows you haven't been playing for foe as long as that toon has been around. Regardless, the fact that you have not seen this does nothing to reduce its validity as an example. elitatwo wrote: Yep and Moros that haz 100.000 alpha is fine, yes. Yes, it is, because tracking speed means that 100k alpha can't hit anything with even a moderate transversal speed. elitatwo wrote: Have recently seen a Leviathan that was shooting a few citadel torpedos? You should try dat out, you can speedtank them right now in a super. So with your idea, that Leviathan would be able to apply its massive firepower to frigates. Why? Because explosion velocity and explosion radius are the missile form of a gun's tracking speed. elitatwo wrote: I cannot understand that noone else wants the power back that was taken from us. {{Redacted personal attack. -- ISD LackOfFaith}} What you want is not a return of some lost immaginary power that was allegedly taken from you. What you want would make missiles so overpowered that it would be suicide to use anything else in the game. Calling those who don't disagree with you "{{Redacted personal attack. -- ISD LackOfFaith}}" makes about as much sense as trying to put lasers on a Drake. Oh, wait... EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
Iain Cariaba 348	Posted - 2014.09.20 17:46:00 - [18] - Quote elitatwo wrote: I say this is important and I have said so many, many times in the past. This is no different. Well, I say the sky is lemon yellow. Guess what, we're both equally correct. elitatwo wrote: Let someone run values if you do not believe me. I know from experience that it will not be as bad as you think it will be. How could you possibly have experience that missiles with no explosion velocity or radius would not be as bad as we think? Where ever you got that experience wasn't on EvE. Maybe you should go back to that game and give your buddy back his account. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem.
Iain Cariaba 599	Posted - 2014.09.20 17:46:42 - [19] - Quote elitatwo wrote: I say this is important and I have said so many, many times in the past. This is no different. Well, I say the sky is lemon yellow. Guess what, we're both equally correct. elitatwo wrote: Let someone run values if you do not believe me. I know from experience that it will not be as bad as you think it will be. How could you possibly have experience that missiles with no explosion velocity or radius would not be as bad as we think? Where ever you got that experience wasn't on EvE. {{Redacted personal attack. -- ISD LackOfFaith}} EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 2928	Posted - 2014.09.20 18:00:00 - [20] - Quote Mallak Azaria wrote: lol what the hell is this? A troll thread.
elitatwo Congregatio 311	Posted - 2014.09.20 18:04:00 - [21] - Quote Son, I do not ususally respond to npcs since it is pointless. But I am telling you again that you should be very, very careful what you claim. I am using missiles since eigth hours of what was called the tutorial back then. At my first day I began with 50.000 skillpoints and tried out all weapon systems there were on my gifted Merlin. Regardless of wether I comment on the 'slight' increase of viewers of eveboard or not that is the reason I still have small autocannons at one. My two launcher Merlin was what I was looking for. The day you started, you had more skillpoints than I did at that time. signature
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 420	Posted - 2014.09.20 18:04:38 - [22] - Quote Son, I do not ususally respond to npcs since it is pointless. But I am telling you again that you should be very, very careful what you claim. I am using missiles since eigth hours of what was called the tutorial back then. At my first day I began with 50.000 skillpoints and tried out all weapon systems there were on my gifted Merlin. Regardless of wether I comment on the 'slight' increase of viewers of eveboard or not that is the reason I still have small autocannons at one. My two launcher Merlin was what I was looking for. The day you started, you had more skillpoints than I did at that time. signature
elitatwo Congregatio 311	Posted - 2014.09.20 18:06:00 - [23] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: lol what the hell is this? A troll thread. If and when I am not really serious, you can figure this out very quickly. signature
Iain Cariaba 348	Posted - 2014.09.20 18:55:00 - [24] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Son, I do not ususally respond to npcs since it is pointless. But I am telling you again that you should be very, very careful what you claim. I am using missiles since eigth hours of what was called the tutorial back then. At my first day I began with 50.000 skillpoints and tried out all weapon systems there were on my gifted Merlin. Regardless of wether I comment on the 'slight' increase of viewers of eveboard or not that is the reason I still have small autocannons at one. My two launcher Merlin was what I was looking for. The day you started, you had more skillpoints than I did at that time. Yep, the fact you are rapidly losing this discussion must bring out the fact that I am between corps at this moment, as if because I temporarily find myself in NPC corp that I am invalid. Funny how no one else in the many threads I have been involved in has pointed that out. Then again, I try not to post drivel about topics I have no knowledge in. You go right ahead and use my time between corps to justify in your own mind that what I say has no value. That is also twice that you have obliquely implied some sort of threat towards me that I should be careful? So what if I say you are wrong, or say you are not who you claim to be. Am I, in my terrible NPCness, that much of a threat to your immagined forum superiority? Besides, there is not a thing you can do about it. As for experience with missiles. I played this game for 6 months to learn the system before making this toon, and from minute one was focused in missiles. With the exception of the capital missiles, there is not a missile system in this game I cannot use, and use well due to all missile support skills at 5. I eventually got to the point where I found missiles lacking, and branched out into guns. Bottom line is this. Because you make the choice to restrict your play options does not make a valid argument for changing the way missiles have worked for at least the last 7 years. If you're that unhappy with the game mechanics, do what all the rest of the entitlement carebear set does and unsub, please. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem.
Iain Cariaba 599	Posted - 2014.09.20 18:55:14 - [25] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Son, I do not ususally respond to npcs since it is pointless. But I am telling you again that you should be very, very careful what you claim. I am using missiles since eigth hours of what was called the tutorial back then. At my first day I began with 50.000 skillpoints and tried out all weapon systems there were on my gifted Merlin. Regardless of wether I comment on the 'slight' increase of viewers of eveboard or not that is the reason I still have small autocannons at one. My two launcher Merlin was what I was looking for. The day you started, you had more skillpoints than I did at that time. Yep, the fact you are rapidly losing this discussion must bring out the fact that I am between corps at this moment, as if because I temporarily find myself in NPC corp that I am invalid. Funny how no one else in the many threads I have been involved in has pointed that out. Then again, I try not to post drivel about topics I have no knowledge in. You go right ahead and use my time between corps to justify in your own mind that what I say has no value. That is also twice that you have obliquely implied some sort of threat towards me that I should be careful? So what if I say you are wrong, or say you are not who you claim to be. Am I, in my terrible NPCness, that much of a threat to your immagined forum superiority? Besides, there is not a thing you can do about it. As for experience with missiles. I played this game for 6 months to learn the system before making this toon, and from minute one was focused in missiles. With the exception of the capital missiles, there is not a missile system in this game I cannot use, and use well due to all missile support skills at 5. I eventually got to the point where I found missiles lacking, and branched out into guns. Bottom line is this. Because you make the choice to restrict your play options does not make a valid argument for changing the way missiles have worked for at least the last 7 years. {{Redacted personal attack. -- ISD LackOfFaith}} EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.

ISD LackOfFaith ISD Community Communications Liaisons 1642	Posted - 2014.09.21 03:42:00 - [26] - Quote Locked for some cleanup work. Personal attacks are bad, mmkay? ISD LackOfFaith Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.

ISD LackOfFaith ISD Community Communications Liaisons 1784	Posted - 2014.09.21 03:42:13 - [27] - Quote Quote: 2. Be respectful toward others at all times. The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others. 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated. 5. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. 23. Post constructively. Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting. Cleaned up the thread as per the above rules. Please stay civil, constructive, and on-topic. Mature discussions that do not devolve into slap fights are encouraged. > ISD LackOfFaith > Captain > Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) > Interstellar Services Department I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.
Duchess Starbuckington Starbuckington Manor 301	Posted - 2014.09.24 13:21:00 - [28] - Quote So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times. Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets... Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS.
Duchess Starbuckington Starbuckington Manor 305	Posted - 2014.09.24 13:21:28 - [29] - Quote So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times. Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets... Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS.
Dia'Sarbator Barren Asteroid Research Corp 1	Posted - 2014.10.09 21:45:00 - [30] - Quote Duchess Starbuckington wrote: So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times. Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets... Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS. Honestly speaking ... Missles just need a 15 ish % boast in raw dmg across the board for a couple of reasons... #1 They have a delayed Alpha that needs to be made up for #2 They never have the ability of applying their full Damage. 15 % ish should bring them a lot closer to where gunnery is.
Dia'Sarbator Barren Asteroid Research Corp 1	Posted - 2014.10.09 21:45:33 - [31] - Quote Duchess Starbuckington wrote: So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times. Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets... Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS. Honestly speaking ... Missles just need a 15 ish % boast in raw dmg across the board for a couple of reasons... #1 They have a delayed Alpha that needs to be made up for #2 They never have the ability of applying their full Damage. 15 % ish should bring them a lot closer to where gunnery is.
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 4148	Posted - 2014.10.09 22:20:00 - [32] - Quote Dia'Sarbator wrote: Duchess Starbuckington wrote: So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times. Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets... Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS. Honestly speaking ... Missles just need a 15 ish % boast in raw dmg across the board for a couple of reasons... #1 They have a delayed Alpha that needs to be made up for #2 They never have the ability of applying their full Damage. 15 % ish should bring them a lot closer to where gunnery is. 1.) Missiles always hit targets within range. 2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. A drake applies full damage to another drake, when that drake is appropriately scram webbed. Against a cruiser, the ship usually needs 2x webs. I'm not opposed to CCP reviewing and tweaking missiles as appropriate, but I trust they have a better understanding of what the appropriate equivalent stats are. As for the Op... He's a troll, because no self respecting veteran would propose such blatantly absurd changes.
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 4178	Posted - 2014.10.09 22:20:59 - [33] - Quote Dia'Sarbator wrote: Duchess Starbuckington wrote: So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times. Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets... Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS. Honestly speaking ... Missles just need a 15 ish % boast in raw dmg across the board for a couple of reasons... #1 They have a delayed Alpha that needs to be made up for #2 They never have the ability of applying their full Damage. 15 % ish should bring them a lot closer to where gunnery is. 1.) Missiles always hit targets within range. 2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. A drake applies full damage to another drake, when that drake is appropriately scram webbed. Against a cruiser, the ship usually needs 2x webs. I'm not opposed to CCP reviewing and tweaking missiles as appropriate, but I trust they have a better understanding of what the appropriate equivalent stats are. As for the Op... He's a troll, because no self respecting veteran would propose such blatantly absurd changes.
Agatir Solenth Servants of the Throne Worlds 23	Posted - 2014.10.10 00:19:00 - [34] - Quote I would equate this request up there with asking that all range limitations be taken away from all lasers.
Agatir Solenth Servants of the Throne Worlds 30	Posted - 2014.10.10 00:19:18 - [35] - Quote I would equate this request up there with asking that all range limitations be taken away from all lasers.
Imuji Swamphole Holdings Swamphole 2	Posted - 2014.10.10 13:27:00 - [36] - Quote Honestly, The only thing I'd like to see changed on missiles is that the missile flight time has been halved, with the missile speed doubled. That way missiles will hit a lot quicker upon firing, but retaining the same range. Perhaps adjust the explosion radius to compensate for the speed, but that's all I think they would really need.
Imuji Swamphole Holdings Swamphole 5	Posted - 2014.10.10 13:27:36 - [37] - Quote Honestly, The only thing I'd like to see changed on missiles is that the missile flight time has been halved, with the missile speed doubled. That way missiles will hit a lot quicker upon firing, but retaining the same range. Perhaps adjust the explosion radius to compensate for the speed, but that's all I think they would really need.
Jenna Olgidar OutLawed Country Inc. Outlaw Nation. 7	Posted - 2014.11.04 14:25:17 - [38] - Quote Explosion Radius Mechanic is used because missiles don't miss. no matter how fast or slow they always hit. unlike the rest of the weapon systems that require a lot more. If anything with missiles that i would change. I would change reload speed to reflect that of other weapon system. I would remove FOF missile completely from the game. no one will ever use these things. they are the dumbest waste of code. and on second though defender missiles wth is it with these unless someone is firing a rocket at you no one else will fit these. I believe the damage output should be a little higher. depending. I would like to see Citidal Torpedo do more damage. for as slow and low range that these are they deal the least amount of damage out of all 4 dreadnought classes. there is not an alliance or corporation out there that wont laugh at you if you tell them that you can only fly a Phoenix. -Olga So yeah like my post. -Olga
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 420	Posted - 2014.11.04 15:18:27 - [39] - Quote Jenna Olgidar wrote: Explosion Radius Mechanic is used because missiles don't miss. no matter how fast or slow they always hit. unlike the rest of the weapon systems that require a lot more... Then it seems to me that you haven't been kited lately in a ham or rocket launcher fitted ship.. And since our CSM members do not seem to care, may I ask the ISD to move this to the "Featues and Ideas" section? signature
Lallante Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 549	Posted - 2014.11.04 19:25:01 - [40] - Quote This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen in Eve. And I've been playing since 2002.
Mike Azariah DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited 1828	Posted - 2014.11.04 21:48:12 - [41] - Quote Lallante wrote: This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen in Eve. And I've been playing since 2002. It is up there but not close to the worst. and No, I won't mention this one to devs unless over beers and laughing m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 422	Posted - 2014.11.04 21:51:24 - [42] - Quote Mike Azariah wrote: Lallante wrote: This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen in Eve. And I've been playing since 2002. It is up there but not close to the worst. and No, I won't mention this one to devs unless over beers and laughing m I am not here to explain EVE to everyone. Yet I explained numerous times now that this will not break EVE. signature
Gaan Cathal Angry Mustellid The Periphery 30	Posted - 2014.11.05 12:06:00 - [43] - Quote Gizznitt Malikite wrote: 2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. Actually this isn't true, and is the actual problem with missiles at the moment. A heavy missile does reduced damage against a cruiser without a prop mod. Explosion Radius should be matched to the "class standard" Signature Radius of the equivalent size to the missile. Explosion Velocity should then be adjusted to a point where slapping an MWD on something doesn't reduce missile damage inordinately compared with gun damage. You should absolutely not be speedtanking missiles without a prop mod, at any scale of engagement. If they then do too much damage in practice, raw numbers can be scaled down. You never know, the Pheonix might even be able to apply damage to something smaller than a moon.
Jenna Olgidar OutLawed Country Inc. Outlaw Nation. 8	Posted - 2014.11.05 12:10:24 - [44] - Quote Gaan Cathal wrote: Gizznitt Malikite wrote: 2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. You never know, the Pheonix might even be able to apply damage to something smaller than a moon. Bahahaha So yeah like my post. -Olga
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 2594	Posted - 2014.11.05 15:03:16 - [45] - Quote Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Cardano Firesnake Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation 169	Posted - 2014.11.05 15:19:54 - [46] - Quote I think the signature, explsion velocity, fly time, and speed stats of most missiles should be review. But removing signature and explosion velocity? Hell NO!! You should learn how the mechanics work before posting that. The problem is about small targets and big missiles. imagine the effect of a torpedo on a webbed frigate without signature stats... Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Yi Hyori University of Caille Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2014.11.05 15:36:57 - [47] - Quote Came to this thread expecting an actual discussion. Definitely not what I found :( If we are going to ask for absurd things, I wan't my cruise missile kestrals back :D Suicide ganking in this for the win. But besides that, I do believe missile damage should be looked at, so I'll leave that comment here. Short range missile is too short. I think something like 50% increase in torpedoes, heavy assault missiles and rockets may be in order. 100% is asking for too much. Guns have falloff which still allow for hits, but missiles dont have that luxury. Maybe my suggestions are biased, who knows. I would like some loving to short range missiles though :)
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 943	Posted - 2014.11.05 15:44:29 - [48] - Quote Yi Hyori wrote: Came to this thread expecting an actual discussion. Definitely not what I found :( If we are going to ask for absurd things, I wan't my cruise missile kestrals back :D Suicide ganking in this for the win. But besides that, I do believe missile damage should be looked at, so I'll leave that comment here. Short range missile is too short. I think something like 50% increase in torpedoes, heavy assault missiles and rockets may be in order. 100% is asking for too much. Guns have falloff which still allow for hits, but missiles dont have that luxury. Maybe my suggestions are biased, who knows. I would like some loving to short range missiles though :) or make javelin's worth using .. there dps is pitiful, we need missile enhancement mods .. (what happened her CCP?) but HAM's have the same range as torps .. so 50% range nerf is more likely , and then rockets would get the same. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 423	Posted - 2014.11.05 15:45:46 - [49] - Quote Yi Hyori wrote: Came to this thread expecting an actual discussion. Definitely not what I found :( If we are going to ask for absurd things, I wan't my cruise missile kestrals back :D Suicide ganking in this for the win. But besides that, I do believe missile damage should be looked at, so I'll leave that comment here. Short range missile is too short. I think something like 50% increase in torpedoes, heavy assault missiles and rockets may be in order. 100% is asking for too much. Guns have falloff which still allow for hits, but missiles dont have that luxury. Maybe my suggestions are biased, who knows. I would like some loving to short range missiles though :) Okay I did read that and someone told me about that a long time ago but they are now called Manticore and fire bombs and torpedos. And to clear things up a little, I asked for torpedos to get a range increase. I did not ask for rockets or hams to be range increased. I also did not ask for missle damage to be increased, since all missile volleys are "in line" with other turret based weapons. Sidenote again: The range were all turrets to zero damage is optimal + 2x falloff and the fitting screen shows optimal + falloff. At this range all turrets do 50% damage, not zero. But if you would pay more attention to what free of charge education I give to you all over the place, you would already know that. signature
Tchulen Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult 839	Posted - 2014.11.05 16:06:00 - [50] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Son, I do not ususally respond to npcs since it is pointless. But I am telling you again that you should be very, very careful what you claim. Son, you should be very, very careful what you claim. elitatwo wrote: I know from experience that it will not be as bad as you think it will be. Your experience is for naught. Orthrus, Barghest, Phoenix & Leviathan will become utterly overpowered. The former 2 because pretty much nothing will be able to outrun their weapons fire and they will be applying 100% damage on everything. That, frankly, is insane. Completely mental. The latter are arguably worse. Capital ships able to apply 100% dps to EVERYTHING. Let that sink in a minute. I know what you'll say: "but they're slow and can be outflown". Yes, by some ships but not most used in fleet fights which is where these cap ships would be used. This will bring back the solo capital killing fleets of subcaps which is completely against the direction the game is taking and against what most of the players want. You've clearly not thought this through and are utterly blinded by personal bias. I understand you're incapable of accepting or agreeing with that statement. It's part of the personality trait of those blinded by selfish wants. It's just lucky for the rest of us that neither the player base or CCP are dumb enough to fall for it.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 423	Posted - 2014.11.05 16:19:27 - [51] - Quote Tchulen wrote: elitatwo wrote: Son, I do not ususally respond to npcs since it is pointless. But I am telling you again that you should be very, very careful what you claim. Son, you should be very, very careful what you claim. [quote=elitatwo]I know from experience that it will not be as bad as you think it will be. Thank you for trolling.. I was being accused of being stupid and sold of on some character bizzare of sorts. I was told once that my social skills are somewhat lacking but high intelligence comes at a price. And to your limited view of raging Phoenixes killing sprees, just remove the ability from Dreads and Titans to target lock subcapitals. Crisis averted, problem solved. signature
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 683	Posted - 2014.11.05 16:27:51 - [52] - Quote OP, I agree with you that missiles could use some love in multiple regards (both internal balance and balance relative to turrets), but what you are proposing is simply too much. If you feel that missiles aren't applying sufficient damage, why not propose buffing their damage application stats instead of changing the underlying mechanics behind how missile damage is calculated? Do you remember the days of perfect application cruise missile Kestrels that would one-volley other frigates? CCP went out of their way to rectify that situation by changing missile mechanics, and what you're proposing would undo much of that rectification. I understand the notion that turrets and missiles should be different and fully support that notion. But granting one of the two full damage application would fundamentally alter both the balance of turrets and missiles and the balance of different-sized ships. -1 CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
Gunrunner1775 Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC 35	Posted - 2014.11.05 16:31:54 - [53] - Quote i lack the technical expertise to provide such a thing, what i would like to see, and im sure it would provide quite a bit of info, a full set of spread sheets compareing ALL weapons systems vs a nice wide selection of targets, small thru large and slow thru fast to include target painters on target as well..... then we can all stop debateing this topic (which appears to come up once every couple of weeks or so) and get down to proper discussion of what needs fixing and how it could be fixed.
Tchulen Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult 839	Posted - 2014.11.05 16:33:26 - [54] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Thank you for trolling.. .... says the troll... elitatwo wrote: I was told once that my social skills are somewhat lacking but high intelligence comes at a price. Lack of social skills doesn't automatically mean you're intelligent. In fact, more people with bad social skills also have low IQ than high IQ. Considering you seem to be incapable of understanding all the reasons people have given you as to why your idea sucks great big donkey ******* I'd say you fit in the unfortunate camp of those with low social skills and IQ. If that isn't the case....well, you're obviously a troll, eh? elitatwo wrote:** And to your limited view of raging Phoenixes killing sprees, just remove the ability from Dreads and Titans to target lock subcapitals. And yet you're still completely ignoring the balance implications across the sub cap class. So, what are you? A smart troll or a dumbass?
Ugly Eric Fistful of Finns Triumvirate. 69	Posted - 2014.11.05 16:40:59 - [55] - Quote Gaan Cathal wrote: Gizznitt Malikite wrote: 2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. Actually this isn't true, and is the actual problem with missiles at the moment. A heavy missile does reduced damage against a cruiser without a prop mod. Explosion Radius should be matched to the "class standard" Signature Radius of the equivalent size to the missile. Explosion Velocity should then be adjusted to a point where slapping an MWD on something doesn't reduce missile damage inordinately compared with gun damage. You should absolutely not be speedtanking missiles without a prop mod, at any scale of engagement. If they then do too much damage in practice, raw numbers can be scaled down. You never know, the Pheonix might even be able to apply damage to something smaller than a moon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q83Qr8iqfg Actually they can hit.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 212	Posted - 2014.11.05 17:04:28 - [56] - Quote Once again. Missile should apply full damage to size appropriate hulls without fittings. Medium missiles should not apply perfectly to frigates, but should apply well to destroyers, and perfectly to unfit cruisers before skills or links. Reasons why setting missile explosion velocity and signature size to the average of unfit size appropriate hulls makes sense ABs should be able to create some damage reduction if unwebbed, and MWDs should create substantial reduction if unwebbed. They are still relative velocity and position agnostic, which means substantially better application outside tackle range of most missiles It should be possible to create some damage mitigation without prop mod by speed fitting unusually fast hulls, like the slasher It should be possible to create some mitigation through running a fairly low signature ship without shield rigs or shield extenders Missiles should apply excellently to things with moderate tackle applied. Missiles should apply decently to painted ships of one to two categories smaller, but large missiles should still struggle to hit destroyers and frigates even if they are painted. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 457	Posted - 2014.11.05 17:08:50 - [57] - Quote Mike Azariah wrote: Lallante wrote: This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen in Eve. And I've been playing since 2002. It is up there but not close to the worst. and No, I won't mention this one to devs unless over beers and laughing m Would you at least get them to take a long, hard look at heavy missiles. The weapon system so bad medium projectile users actually think they have it the worst because they forget heavy missiles even exist. So bad that they dont even do full damage vs a cruiser doing a whopping 194ms @165 sig, when they have an explosion radius of 105!!! Please....?
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 212	Posted - 2014.11.05 17:13:57 - [58] - Quote afkalt wrote: Mike Azariah wrote: Lallante wrote: This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen in Eve. And I've been playing since 2002. It is up there but not close to the worst. and No, I won't mention this one to devs unless over beers and laughing m Would you at least get them to take a long, hard look at heavy missiles. The weapon system so bad medium projectile users actually think they have it the worst because they forget heavy missiles even exist. So bad that they dont even do full damage vs a cruiser doing a whopping 194ms @165 sig, when they have an explosion radius of 105!!! Please....? Unless I've gone off my rocker, Mike has said he was taking the problems with heavy missiles to CCP. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 457	Posted - 2014.11.05 17:17:16 - [59] - Quote He may have, I won't have seen all his posts, but adding weight to the requests never hurts
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 3060	Posted - 2014.11.05 17:21:26 - [60] - Quote The missile changes were brought in for a reason other than BoB crying about them. One needs only to look at the reasoning behind those changes all that time ago. Do I think missiles are in a good place? I do not. I agree with James - A missile should be able to apply 100% of its damage to a stationary (or slow-moving), unfitted hull of the same size before skills and links come into the picture. Lights/Rockets vs Frigs, Heavy/HAMs vs Cruisers, Cruises/Torps vs Battleships, Citadels vs Capitals. Do I think OP's changes are a good idea? Well... not particularly.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 683	Posted - 2014.11.05 17:23:26 - [61] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Once again. Missile should apply full damage to size appropriate hulls without fittings. Medium missiles should not apply perfectly to frigates, but should apply well to destroyers, and perfectly to unfit cruisers before skills or links. Reasons why setting missile explosion velocity and signature size to the average of unfit size appropriate hulls makes sense ABs should be able to create some damage reduction if unwebbed, and MWDs should create substantial reduction if unwebbed. They are still relative velocity and position agnostic, which means substantially better application outside tackle range of most missiles It should be possible to create some damage mitigation without prop mod by speed fitting unusually fast hulls, like the slasher It should be possible to create some mitigation through running a fairly low signature ship without shield rigs or shield extenders Missiles should apply excellently to things with moderate tackle applied. Missiles should apply decently to painted ships of one to two categories smaller, but large missiles should still struggle to hit destroyers and frigates even if they are painted. I agree with everything you said except the bit I highlighted. Currently with turrets, ABs provide more damage reduction than MWDs do. What MWD-ing ships gain against turrets isn't a tracking-based reduction in damage, it's the ability to dictate range: the signature bloom balances the speed increase so applied damage stays the same. I feel the same should apply to missiles: no reduction to application for an active MWD, but increased speed means you can possibly out-range, or out-fly, incoming missiles. Other than that...spot on. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 423	Posted - 2014.11.05 17:31:14 - [62] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: OP, I agree with you that missiles could use some love in multiple regards (both internal balance and balance relative to turrets), but what you are proposing is simply too much. If you feel that missiles aren't applying sufficient damage, why not propose buffing their damage application stats instead of changing the underlying mechanics behind how missile damage is calculated? Do you remember the days of perfect application cruise missile Kestrels that would one-volley other frigates? CCP went out of their way to rectify that situation by changing missile mechanics, and what you're proposing would undo much of that rectification. I understand the notion that turrets and missiles should be different and fully support that notion. But granting one of the two full damage application would fundamentally alter both the balance of turrets and missiles and the balance of different-sized ships. -1 I wasn't there yet but my friends from college did tell me those stories. After some reading in our old forums back in the day this was the case when EVE was just born and nobody could have had any of the fittings skills at five. The Kestrels of the old are now the stealth bombers of the new age that sneak up on you and pod you back to the stoneage, if you get my drift. I get that you disagree and it's fine. I wasn't expecting much agreement and as I said last week even unpopular visions need to get heard. What I do not understand is that insta-canes are a thing, tornados are or were a thing too until bombers became more popular but a long range missile hitting a target is suddenly the end of the world. I explained just last week how no missile can ever do the full 100% damage because they were never designed that way, hence the two forgotten attributes of shield and armor reduction. Yes in a worse case scenario this may not end well but approaching a railgun in a straight line doesn't either. I get that in most of your minds you see the EFT volley damage of a 40km range torpedo on an unstoppable killing spree and as shocking as that my sound, 10 Ishtar will sentry that unstoppable Raven of the field before she even gets a lock on one. signature
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 40	Posted - 2014.11.05 18:28:28 - [63] - Quote elitatwo wrote: I am not here to explain EVE to everyone. Yet I explained numerous times now that this will not break EVE. You keep saying that, but I'm not sure you understand. Torpedos having perfect damage application against cruisers, destroyers and frigates, regardless of how fast they're moving. On a Raven with even middling skills, you're talking about 5900 damage volleys with rage torpedoes that can't be avoided at all. You mention defender missiles, but that cancels one missile (and doesn't even work well most of the time). That single-handedly takes all turret-fit cruisers out of the game, because as soon as a missile battleship shows up, they can't do anything. I get that you want your Raven Navy Issue, Phoenix and what-have-you to have no counters and dominate the field as soon as it lands, but you have to see that CCP does know enough about their game to know what kind of problems this will cause.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 214	Posted - 2014.11.05 18:50:37 - [64] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: James Baboli wrote: snip Reasons why setting missile explosion velocity and signature size to the average of unfit size appropriate hulls makes sense ABs should be able to create some damage reduction if unwebbed, and MWDs should create substantial reduction if unwebbed. snip I agree with everything you said except the bit I highlighted. Currently with turrets, ABs provide more damage reduction than MWDs do. What MWD-ing ships gain against turrets isn't a tracking-based reduction in damage, it's the ability to dictate range: the signature bloom balances the speed increase so applied damage stays the same. I feel the same should apply to missiles: no reduction to application for an active MWD, but increased speed means you can possibly out-range, or out-fly, incoming missiles. Other than that...spot on. Which is where I would like to see a difference in the meta and mechanics. I would love to see MWDs partially negating damage of missiles, as currently they have the highest damage per effective weapon slot, but suffer from annoying application and the lack of "critical" hits. I get that out flying missiles is possible, but given that I want to then see them changed from chasing to a predictive model of movement, which means that against a ship in orbit they head for where it will be, rather than having to out speed the ship they are following, this would become increasingly hard. I did not mention that as currently the terrible application of successful volleys is the main issue. I am planning on proposing this change at least on large and XL missiles elsewhere although at present this part of the proposal is not live. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 2599	Posted - 2014.11.05 19:32:39 - [65] - Quote I have removed a rule breaking post and the one quoting it. The Rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 686	Posted - 2014.11.05 19:39:50 - [66] - Quote James Baboli wrote: given that I want to then see them changed from chasing to a predictive model of movement, which means that against a ship in orbit they head for where it will be, rather than having to out speed the ship they are following, this would become increasingly hard. While an interesting idea, and certainly realistic in terms of what real missiles do for tracking their targets, I'm not sure that the server-side calculations necessary for that would be a good thing for lag. I'd love to see CCP try it though. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 214	Posted - 2014.11.05 19:47:51 - [67] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: While an interesting idea, and certainly realistic in terms of what real missiles do for tracking their targets, I'm not sure that the server-side calculations necessary for that would be a good thing for lag. I'd love to see CCP try it though. I would too, and for ships which are on a constant vector or in a constant pattern like an orbit, the calculations are easier than continuing to run a chase formula, and decrease the time missiles hang about. Such a change would also lay the ground work for much more effective defenders, if CCP saw a value in improving this feature. It is only ships which change vector or pattern which give these missiles trouble, and this would lead to high agility ships like nano-fit ceptors literally dodging out of the missiles possible flight paths with good piloting. Yes, I do incursions. Find out more here Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
TheMercenaryKing StarFleet Enterprises Intrepid Crossing 304	Posted - 2014.11.05 19:59:45 - [68] - Quote http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/6a/8d/5e/6a8d5e2df29b383ce48e26cdb58c3fdb.jpg
M1k3y Koontz Thorn Project Surely You're Joking 611	Posted - 2014.11.06 00:05:38 - [69] - Quote Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Dia'Sarbator wrote: Duchess Starbuckington wrote: So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times. Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets... Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS. Honestly speaking ... Missles just need a 15 ish % boast in raw dmg across the board for a couple of reasons... #1 They have a delayed Alpha that needs to be made up for #2 They never have the ability of applying their full Damage. 15 % ish should bring them a lot closer to where gunnery is. 1.) Missiles always hit targets within range. 2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. A drake applies full damage to another drake, when that drake is appropriately scram webbed. Against a cruiser, the ship usually needs 2x webs. I'm not opposed to CCP reviewing and tweaking missiles as appropriate, but I trust they have a better understanding of what the appropriate equivalent stats are. As for the Op... He's a troll, because no self respecting veteran would propose such blatantly absurd changes. 1. Not true, if your target is orbiting you your missiles must chase that target, reducing effective range. If your target is burning away from you, ie is a kiting ship (like 90% of smallish fights these days) your missiles will not be acting in their full range. 2: Cruisers use the same missiles as battlecruisers (HAMs), and a Caracal can't afford two mids to web a target, plus a point and MWD, that leaves just one slot for tank. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 424	Posted - 2014.11.06 00:22:42 - [70] - Quote M1k3y Koontz wrote: -snip- 1. Not true, if your target is orbiting you your missiles must chase that target, reducing effective range. If your target is burning away from you, ie is a kiting ship (like 90% of smallish fights these days) your missiles will not be acting in their full range. finally! Thank you dear. Yes that was what I was going for by "outrunning". As soon as a missile runs out of flight time the missile will be removed from the database - 100% application or not that missile will do zero damage. M1k3y Koontz wrote: 2: Cruisers use the same missiles as battlecruisers (HAMs), and a Caracal can't afford two mids to web a target, plus a point and MWD, that leaves just one slot for tank. Very true! Just ask fidelis constance on their take on (already) 100% application missiles on Caracals. Using 100% or 1% application HAMs wouldn't do much difference if you get kited at 40+ km and chasing a much faster target. What I have very carefully considered is movement on the field. So 100% application or not that 90km max range on my Sacilege is becoming a lot shorter than on any theoretical fitting tool. In case you were wondering, most fights do not happen in gatecamps and if you ever have engaged in small gang warfare you may have noticed that moving around is cruicial. signature
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 457	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:03:22 - [71] - Quote Gizznitt Malikite wrote: 2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. A drake applies full damage to another drake, when that drake is appropriately scram webbed. Against a cruiser, the ship usually needs 2x webs. Come now, I need to scram web a shield tanked battlecruiser, in order to get full [utterly anaemic] DPS onto it with a cruiser size weapon? Whilst the fact that is nearly true is depressing, it is not reasonable. If the DPS was insane, I could get behind it, but it is not. Low base DPS coupled with terrible application is a horrid place to be in. Your drake examples just nails the point home further. Imagine if turrets needed to be shooting up a size class AND need the target scram/webbed to break 200 dps....
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 427	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:18:31 - [72] - Quote afkalt wrote: Gizznitt Malikite wrote: 2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. A drake applies full damage to another drake, when that drake is appropriately scram webbed. Against a cruiser, the ship usually needs 2x webs. Come now, I need to scram web a shield tanked battlecruiser, in order to get full [utterly anaemic] DPS onto it with a cruiser size weapon? Whilst the fact that is nearly true is depressing, it is not reasonable. If the DPS was insane, I could get behind it, but it is not. Low base DPS coupled with terrible application is a horrid place to be in. Your drake examples just nails the point home further. Imagine if turrets needed to be shooting up a size class AND need the target scram/webbed to break 200 dps.... With that image in mind let's do another example with that HAM Drake and she is chasing a blaster Deimos which is shooting null M. That maximum range of 20km for the HAMs will be more close to 5-7km range in this case. Or that 45km range on a Cerberus will be more close to 22-30km range. signature
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1979	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:26:55 - [73] - Quote M1k3y Koontz wrote: 1. Not true, if your target is orbiting you your missiles must chase that target, reducing effective range. If your target is burning away from you, ie is a kiting ship (like 90% of smallish fights these days) your missiles will not be acting in their full range. elitatwo wrote: With that image in mind let's do another example with that HAM Drake and she is chasing a blaster Deimos which is shooting null M. That maximum range of 20km for the HAMs will be more close to 5-7km range in this case. Or that 45km range on a Cerberus will be more close to 22-30km range. It should be noted that if you are in a missile ship and your opponent is chasing you, a missile's range is effectively increased. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
M1k3y Koontz Thorn Project Surely You're Joking 611	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:33:43 - [74] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: M1k3y Koontz wrote: 1. Not true, if your target is orbiting you your missiles must chase that target, reducing effective range. If your target is burning away from you, ie is a kiting ship (like 90% of smallish fights these days) your missiles will not be acting in their full range. elitatwo wrote: With that image in mind let's do another example with that HAM Drake and she is chasing a blaster Deimos which is shooting null M. That maximum range of 20km for the HAMs will be more close to 5-7km range in this case. Or that 45km range on a Cerberus will be more close to 22-30km range. It should be noted that if you are in a missile ship and your opponent is chasing you, a missile's range is effectively increased. This is true, but as soon as they start dying, they can turn around and run away, negating that range bonus into a range penalty. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1979	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:37:50 - [75] - Quote M1k3y Koontz wrote: This is true, but as soon as they start dying, they can turn around and run away, negating that range bonus into a range penalty. either way its a two way sword and should be considered neither an advantage nor disadvantage. it is exactly the same as wrecking/miss arguments for/against turrets. they are exactly one for one and neither a benefit nor penalty. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 427	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:39:13 - [76] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: ...It should be noted that if you are in a missile ship and your opponent is chasing you, a missile's range is effectively increased. Hmm.. Let's say I am in HAM Drake and get chased by an arty-cane or five let's be more realistic . Let's also imagine I am not very good and do not notice that the canes that are chasing me are at 50km and closing in are not pointing me. So here I am looking for a gate or some other celestial to warp to. If the client does show it correctly and missile get launched in a straight line, they would have to make a turn to chase at least one of the canes. That "turn" does take missile flight time of the missiles and they have to accelerate first. At first glance this would still decrease the range but I have to look into this on SiSi first. signature
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1979	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:44:12 - [77] - Quote turning yes. but thats turning. just the same when you are chasing an opponent who is not flying directly away your missiles track ahead of him slightly (not perfectly) to minimise distance lost to a moving target. this is why missiles start spasming when tracking extremely fast targets (like light drones orbiting with MWD's still active) EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 427	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:53:10 - [78] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: turning yes. but thats turning. just the same when you are chasing an opponent who is not flying directly away your missiles track ahead of him slightly (not perfectly) to minimise distance lost to a moving target. They do have some motion prediction. this is why missiles start spasming when tracking extremely fast targets (like light drones orbiting with MWD's still active) I will look into that tomorrow when SiSi is a little more populated. A little sidenote: When cruise missiles were buffed and battleships got their changes I did shoot at a Dominix that was 50km away. He did a mjd jump but he was still in my lock range and my cruise missile made a funny "loop" and still hit him. signature
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 459	Posted - 2014.11.06 07:53:36 - [79] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: M1k3y Koontz wrote: This is true, but as soon as they start dying, they can turn around and run away, negating that range bonus into a range penalty. either way its a two way sword and should be considered neither an advantage nor disadvantage. it is exactly the same as wrecking/miss arguments for/against turrets. they are exactly one for one and neither a benefit nor penalty. It is, but it sure would be great if they got it more consistent, the Mordu missiles work well for that reason.
Mike Whiite Geuzen Inc 359	Posted - 2014.11.06 12:44:45 - [80] - Quote the OP's idea isn't something I'd approve of. That said, Missiles need some tinkering. one problem is the relative limited ways to tinker with the formula, which makes it rather hard to adjust every time some adjustment is made on ships and modules. rigs are the only way to passively adjust explosion radius and velocity for instance. this has as a side effect that almost every balance step made turns out in missiles being over or underpowered. lets set aside the changes that directly affected missiles, we all know them or should know them if you're entering this discussion. cruisers and lower got a speed buff (making it harder to hit those ships for full) armor got a little faster a large amount of ships got their signature reduced. I know that effects Turrets as well, but a turrets have better ways to adjust to those changes and because of the complexity of the turret formula, some of those changes weight less on a turret than on a missile launcher. then there was the buff of medium long range turrets after the nerf of heavy missile. just to name a few that affected the state of missiles in general. and then there are a few side issues that not leave the impression missiles are loved by CCP at this moment. We still have the semi finished Rapid launchers (still no way to switch ammo types in a reasonable time) and missile training takes an idiotic amount of time, compared to turret training especially now the restrictions on the turret tree are dropped. and for a weapon system that has as an advantage that it can do multiple amounts of damage it has way to much hulls that have a specific damage bonus.
Kesthely Fleet of the Damned Ace of Spades. 161	Posted - 2014.11.06 17:31:17 - [81] - Quote ISD Ezwal wrote: Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion. So you have to bother us with this.... Nope sorry i honestly can't say this is an Idea With this troll?
War Kitten Panda McLegion 5454	Posted - 2014.11.06 17:53:43 - [82] - Quote Damn, I was hoping for a thread insisting that missiles all have proper street addresses and postal codes in order to deliver their payload. Imagine my reaction when the actual OP was even sillier.... I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 40	Posted - 2014.11.06 18:35:53 - [83] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Let's also imagine I am not very good and do not notice that the canes that are chasing me are at 50km and closing in are not pointing me. So here I am looking for a gate or some other celestial to warp to. If you have to keep building in cases like these into your argument, then you need to take a closer look at your argument. Also, almost all of your arguments are cases where missiles aren't good, and you're ignoring all of their positive sides.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 429	Posted - 2014.11.06 19:09:29 - [84] - Quote War Kitten wrote: .. street addresses and postal codes in order to deliver their payload..... As you wish.. signature
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 2624	Posted - 2014.11.06 19:30:45 - [85] - Quote I have removed a rule breaking post. The Rules: 12. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited. The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a support ticket under the Community & Forums Category. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Gawain Edmond Angry Mustellid The Periphery 104	Posted - 2014.11.06 19:49:41 - [86] - Quote Agatir Solenth wrote: I would equate this request up there with asking that all range limitations be taken away from all lasers. this is a rather good idea since lasers can only do em and thermal damage and are just beams of light there is no reason that they should have range limitations i fully support this idea and think it should be implimented immediatly i think this is so there for i am right and if you don't agree then watch out Beadle's About
scorchlikeshiswhiskey interstellar initiative Incorporated 330	Posted - 2014.11.06 20:31:50 - [87] - Quote Gawain Edmond wrote: Agatir Solenth wrote: I would equate this request up there with asking that all range limitations be taken away from all lasers. this is a rather good idea since lasers can only do em and thermal damage and are just beams of light there is no reason that they should have range limitations i fully support this idea and think it should be implimented immediatly i think this is so there for i am right and if you don't agree then watch out Beadle's About Yea! And since missiles use rocket engines, there is no reason they should have a max velocity, so they should continuously accelerate. Even if they did though, light speed artillery would still be the better sniper choice.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 430	Posted - 2014.11.06 22:50:30 - [88] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: ..If you have to keep building in cases like these into your argument, then you need to take a closer look at your argument. Also, almost all of your arguments are cases where missiles aren't good, and you're ignoring all of their positive sides. The only upside of missiles is that they do not need capacitor. Most of the launchers can shoot one damage type at once. Rapid launchers need an hour to load, reload or preload and as they are right now they are small electron blaster tracking medium neutron blasters with up to 100km range. Wanna know something funny? Stealth bombers are only popular because bombs need no tracking, haz 500% application and need no piloting, just a multi-client software that plays the game for humans. signature
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 43	Posted - 2014.11.07 03:35:39 - [89] - Quote elitatwo wrote: The only upside of missiles is that they do not need capacitor. Most of the launchers can shoot one damage type at once. Every missile-based ship I fly gets a bonus to either damage or rate-of-fire. It takes ten seconds to switch damage types. That's a huge bonus. You also usually have better range, for engagements with the same class of ship; ~20km HAMs as opposed to the ~3km of neutron blasters (or ~10km with null). Also, your missiles don't have reduced "tracking" based on your own movement, either. If an enemy ship is tracking you better, you can cut your afterburner on, for example, and you're still hitting him the same. As opposed to a blaster ship, where increasing your transversal velocity can penalize you, too. My only complaint is that the current missile ships can't have very much utility. You can't fit much EWar on a shield-tanked ship. Need more armor-tanked missile boats, to compensate.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 430	Posted - 2014.11.07 03:48:45 - [90] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Every missile-based ship I fly gets a bonus to either damage or rate-of-fire. It takes ten seconds to switch damage types. That's a huge bonus. You also usually have better range, for engagements with the same class of ship; ~20km HAMs as opposed to the ~3km of neutron blasters (or ~10km with null). My Brutix only takes five seconds to switch between void, null and antimatter, which is a huge bonus. And the same Brutix will kill a Drake regardless of missile application anytime. Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Also, your missiles don't have reduced "tracking" based on your own movement, either. If an enemy ship is tracking you better, you can cut your afterburner on, for example, and you're still hitting him the same. As opposed to a blaster ship, where increasing your transversal velocity can penalize you, too. Since we all know our ship always just suddenly appear somewhere and always have the upper hand, no matter what. There are no cases where your eating habbits, pant size, shoe color and all your exes will be reported a very long time before you get into harms way. This doesn't happen in EVE. So anytime you wonder of to low or nullsec and take a look how the systems look like there, it is totally random that you run into a "small gang" that surprisingly happens to be there to encourage you to go back to where you just came from. signature
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 29	Posted - 2014.11.07 04:06:35 - [91] - Quote The problem with missiles lies in the reload rate. Maybe its the same for other weapon systems, too. See, missiles have a supposed buff in the ability to switch damage types, but this takes up to 10 seconds regardless of the size of the ship. 10 seconds for a battleship to switch to ammo to take advantage of a discovered resistance weakness is much easier than 10 seconds of a frigate switching ammo to do the same in a real no holds barred pvp environment. Couple that with the damage being done after a delay from when the missile turret fires, the fact that missile damage will not apply if you warp off before they hit, and so on, and you have a system that's lackluster. Reloads could be 3-5-10 seconds long for frig to cruiser to battleship sizes respectively, and they might actually become good weapon platforms in intense PvP because you can switch for best damage before you die. Other than that, I think missiles are actually quite good. You will note that as long as they cant outrun your missile and you're within "optimal" the missile ALWAYS hits and ALWAYS does the exact damage it's supposed to do. No glancing blows, no wreckings, smooth and reliable like a good cig. [quote] So 50 retreivers and 1 ganker walk into a bar, and the ganker turns to all the retreivers and says "I know how to play this game, you're wrong, now give me your money and then let me blow you up". That's the joke. [/quote]
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 430	Posted - 2014.11.07 04:38:45 - [92] - Quote 13kr1d1 wrote: See, missiles have a supposed buff in the ability to switch damage types, but this takes up to 10 seconds regardless of the size of the ship. 10 seconds for a battleship to switch to ammo to take advantage of a discovered resistance weakness is much easier than 10 seconds of a frigate switching ammo to do the same in a real no holds barred pvp environment. Autocannos and some missile launcher have a reload time of cycle time + 10 seconds. Rapid launchers "only" need an hour to do things. Laser turrets have a reload time of the time it takes you to right-click them and swap them crystal up to cycle time + time to right-click and swap. All hybrid turrets have a reload time of cycle time + 5 seconds. Switchting ammo in a fight can cost you your ship in smaller ships but that it not restricted to them alone. Now if you take a Brutix or a Ferox with ion or neutron blasters and have a frigate scram-webbed, you will be shooting with antimatter. That unlucky frigate will propably not want to be there but will also have a hard time evading you. Now that same frigate will also not want to be in that place in case of a ham Drake / Sacrilege but she "knows" this and stays out of range. Kiting is much cooler, so that frigate be a Crow, Malediction or Garmur or turret based frigate with railguns or artilleries. And you are in a kiting heavy missile Drake or Sacrilege. Now tell me again, how you missile are.. signature
Miromme Echerie Laughing Coffin's 3	Posted - 2014.11.07 12:30:25 - [93] - Quote Suicide stealth bombers.. I think I just came.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 461	Posted - 2014.11.07 12:56:55 - [94] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Every missile-based ship I fly gets a bonus to either damage or rate-of-fire. It takes ten seconds to switch damage types. That's a huge bonus.. It's a huge bonus unless you're locked (or part locked) to a damage type.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey interstellar initiative Incorporated 334	Posted - 2014.11.07 14:24:07 - [95] - Quote 13kr1d1 wrote: Other than that, I think missiles are actually quite good. You will note that as long as they cant outrun your missile and you're within "optimal" the missile ALWAYS hits and ALWAYS does the exact damage it's supposed to do. No glancing blows, no wreckings, smooth and reliable like a good cig. Your assessment isn't completely wrong, but it isn't completely wrong either. I was on Teamspeak with my buds and one of them was wondering why heavies are so bad, so we worked through the missile formula using the example of 2 drakes, unfitted save for launchers, and at my skill level for EV, ER, SigRad, and speed. We discovered that T1 heavies, from a Drake, shot at a similar Drake flying at it's top speed, without prop mod, will lose approximately 25-30% of it's damage to speed tank. Yes, a Drake can speed tank another Drake. This was before factoring in invulns or extenders so, before someone ignores the rest of my post and jumps on that, those numbers can change but the point remains that a Drake can speed tank a Drake. We crunched the numbers for the same case and with an AB the numbers were abysmal. We also learned that, to apply a worthwhile amount of damage to a Drake, you need to shoot Navy Heavies from your Drake. Does that sound right to anyone? That the slowest BC (I could be wrong on that, but not by much) can negate significant same-size missile damage just by turning on its engines? What does that imply for Heavies against a Myrmidon, or something else that moves faster than a one-legged sloth?
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 435	Posted - 2014.11.07 14:40:11 - [96] - Quote afkalt wrote: Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Every missile-based ship I fly gets a bonus to either damage or rate-of-fire. It takes ten seconds to switch damage types. That's a huge bonus.. It's a huge bonus unless you're locked (or part locked) to a damage type. Yes it can be I am aware of that so let me make another example without any of my Caldari hulls. Let's take a heavy missile Sacrilege and she is chasing or being chased by a Deimos. Both of them are at mwd speed. Both of them have active armor tanks and a reactive armor hardener on them. So the Sacrilege is not bound by any damage and chooses explosive missile damage and the Deimos is shooting null M. The Sacrilege is starting to poke (not damage) that Deimos with five nova heavy missiles until the shield of the Deimos drop and start to tickle her armor a little. My new best friend for armor tanking ships is starting to rapidly shift all resistance to explosive up to the maximum of 60%. You can now see the our blue damage notifications start to decrease for each volley of nova missiles Now our upside of shooting one damage type at a time is not so good anymore. And taking a Sacrilege and a Deimos are not too far of of what I flying around in space, be it New Eden or SiSi. signature
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 435	Posted - 2014.11.07 14:48:36 - [97] - Quote Miromme Echerie wrote: Suicide stealth bombers.. I think I just came. I am always very happy to please.. signature
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 45	Posted - 2014.11.07 15:13:19 - [98] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Let's take a heavy missile Sacrilege and she is chasing or being chased by a Deimos. Both of them are at mwd speed. Both of them have active armor tanks and a reactive armor hardener on them. You keep using these very, very specific examples, and you keep taking stats from different examples and comparing them. "He's kiting with null, so he'll outrun my missiles. But antimatter does more damage than missiles, so that's why kiting with null makes missiles bad. Well, that example only really worked with that one ship, so I'll mention another ship, but now I'll bring in reactive hardeners to show why missiles are bad." Also, every Sacrilege vs Deimos fight I've ever flown, I've won with the Sacrilege. If the Deimos tries to kite away, he literally can't kill you anyway, but it's a much more complicated fight than "I use these missiles, he uses this ammo". Regarding reactive hardeners, this is why I pick a flight of drones that uses a different damage type than my main weapons, and I haven't had much trouble killing ships with reactive hardeners (they use so much cap on cruisers that it's more of a penalty). elitatwo wrote: Now our upside of shooting one damage type at a time is not so good anymore. That hardener literally has the same effect against hybrid weapons, as well. Shifts to 30% against thermal and 30% of kinetic, you're resisting 60% of the damage.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 464	Posted - 2014.11.07 15:26:59 - [99] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: You keep using these very, very specific examples, and you keep taking stats from different examples and comparing them. "He's kiting with null, so he'll outrun my missiles. This is true - but the problem is also genuinely manifest. For the sakes of showing the point, but it is a fight I've had. Typhoon shooting RHML at a fleeing cynabal. Paper range: 62km made up from a 9.75s flight time and 6450 m/s velocity. Cynabal was doing say....3000 m/s (not exactly a stretch). Actual range: 9.75* (6450-3000) == ~33km Of course, the opposite happens if it is boring down on you - but as I posted earlier - be a lot nicer to have it more consistent. If we double speed and half time, the same scenario plays out as shown: 62km range made up from 4.875s flight time and 12900 m/s velocity Shooting fleeing cynabal: 4.875*(12900-3000) == ~48km Not perfect, but better and more consistent. Frankly they could apply this globally and STILL keep the bonus on the mordus (I'm aware this would basically make them guns but..../pirate).
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 436	Posted - 2014.11.07 16:06:27 - [100] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: ...You keep using these very, very specific examples, and you keep taking stats from different examples and comparing them. "He's kiting with null, so he'll outrun my missiles. But antimatter does more damage than missiles, so that's why kiting with null makes missiles bad. Well, that example only really worked with that one ship, so I'll mention another ship, but now I'll bring in reactive hardeners to show why missiles are bad." You are always invited to use a 200mm railgun Deimos or sentry Ishtars in that example. It is something I pulled of below my chair while reading something else. And if that is all that you take from this, I cannot help you. As I said it is okay that you disagree with me. For everyone else that might consider a genuine problem I am listing the ships involved that aren't already having 100% application missiles or commenly known as light missiles. Oh btw, rockets are a just disgrace at this point. Caldari: Caracal, Cerberus, Drake, Nighthawk, Raven, Navy Scorpion, Navy Raven, Golem, Widow, Pheonix, Leviathan Amarr: Sacilege, Prophecy, Damnation, Armageddon minmatar: bellicose and that other cruiser, cyclone, that link command ship, typhoon, typhoon navy special snowflakes: stealth bombers Now let's look at the ships involved themselves and now consider other problems those ships have compared to any gun boat right now? Are you still convinced that this will crush the blue donut, takes all sov space, conquer all wh space and breake all markets? Let me tell you what will not happen. Baltec will not ditch his Megathron and let a goons fly Ravens instead, why? awww missile take long, must mekk killmailz, enemy fly of, no kill, booh missle bad, tekk turret, sentry Archon instead. yeay haz killmail, missile booh, mekk stronkh. signature
Alundil Isogen 5 748	Posted - 2014.11.07 16:25:15 - [101] - Quote I have addressed missiles for you I'm right behind you
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 436	Posted - 2014.11.07 16:31:16 - [102] - Quote Alundil wrote: I have addressed missiles for you Cool story! Now send me your P.O. box address and I will send you a nice bottle of tri-nitride acid ester of glycerin that you have to shake a little before opening. signature
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 45	Posted - 2014.11.07 16:50:40 - [103] - Quote elitatwo wrote: sentry Ishtars And here we go again. "Missiles aren't as good as guns because sentry drones." elitatwo wrote: Now let's look at the ships involved themselves and now consider other problems those ships have compared to any gun boat right now? You didn't list actually any problems those ships have compared to the gun boats. Also, the Prophecy or Armageddon can't really be considered missile boats (They can fit them, but they don't get any bonuses at all), and I wasn't aware anybody fit weapons on the Damnation at all. elitatwo wrote: Oh btw, rockets are a just disgrace at this point. Really? 'Cause damage application is what you're complaining about, and they get close to perfect application at longer range than pulse lasers. Quote: Are you still convinced that this will crush the blue donut, takes all sov space, conquer all wh space and breake all markets? I did not mention null-sec, wormhole space or markets. Your hyperbole has no purpose but to be insulting for no reason. Anyway, removing missile tracking, a torpedo Raven with have a 5,500 damage volley (navy ammo, not even rage ammo) within 30km (more, if you include rigs), and it will be applying all of that damage. No cruiser could even get close enough to point you, because you WILL kill it in a few volleys. Frigates and destroyers will be immediately blapped. A close-range brawling fit battleship can probably take you on, but it will really hurt in the time it takes to get close enough to brawl you. That's just a standard Raven. A Barghest will have a 7,800 damage volley with perfect application to anything close enough to put a long-point on you. A Phoenix will have a 110,000 damage volley. The only counter-play to something like this would be defender missiles (which are unreliable at best). Assuming defender missiles would work at all as a counter, a decent chunk of a small-gang fleet would need to be geared towards shutting down the missiles of a larger ship. Now a main issues with defender missiles; they only block missiles heading towards you and each defender missile only takes out a single incoming missile (about 900 damage per volley from said Raven). Name a cruiser that has 6 launcher slots, 'cause nothing else will prevent enough damage to make it worth trying to tackle a torpedo Raven (let alone Barghest). Throw some X-large ancillary shield boosters on it, and I guarantee you will outlast whatever small gang goes after you. Firewalling is another possible counter, but it is horribly impractical in any fight except large fleets with firing-line setups. "It's okay, they can turn around and run away from your torpedoes." Yeah, sure. But nothing will ever get close enough to put a scram or disrupt on you. Then imagine you have friends in smaller ships with scrams and webs. They don't even need to do any DPS, they just tackle and wait for the missile battleship to arrive. I'm pretty sure this is the exact situation you're thinking of every time you post "missile tracking needs to be removed" in a thread that has nothing to do with missiles. Heck, if for some reason this actually gets through, this will be exactly what my corp will be doing. I'm sure a lot of people will do the same, and this is the reason CCP won't remove missile tracking.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 436	Posted - 2014.11.07 17:08:47 - [104] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: -snip- Anyway, removing missile tracking, a torpedo Raven with have a 5,500 damage volley (navy ammo, not even rage ammo) within 30km (more, if you include rigs), and it will be applying all of that damage. No cruiser could even get close enough to point you, because you WILL kill it in a few volleys. Frigates and destroyers will be immediately blapped. A close-range brawling fit battleship can probably take you on, but it will really hurt in the time it takes to get close enough to brawl you. That's just a standard Raven. A Barghest will have a 7,800 damage volley with perfect application to anything close enough to put a long-point on you. A Phoenix will have a 110,000 damage volley... Oh mah gawd.. Zee most fastest ship in EVE ever created by gods could naow fit torpedos that has 12-17k range. Call 911, zee FBI, CIA, NSA and put out a defcon 1 terror alert. No other ship in EVE with a 70km point could possibly yolo at 8800m/s around that boat and live happily ever after. And all zee horror that comes with it. No turret boat even comes close to 30km range and no sensor dampeners could ever make this monstrocity heve zero damage. Please go on SiSi and ask someone with a Vindicator how your approach to her goes with a HAC of your choosing. There might be a reason why I left pirate faction ships out of here. Again and for the last time: No missile can even do 100% damage, application or not. Why? I strongly advise to look that up yourself. signature
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 45	Posted - 2014.11.07 17:30:17 - [105] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Oh mah gawd.. Zee most fastest ship in EVE ever created by gods could naow fit torpedos that has 12-17k range. Call 911, zee FBI, CIA, NSA and put out a defcon 1 terror alert. No other ship in EVE with a 70km point could possibly yolo at 8800m/s around that boat and live happily ever after. More hyperbole rather than actually addressing the concerns I bring up. Quote: And all zee horror that comes with it. No turret boat even comes close to 30km range, and no sensor dampeners could ever make this monstrocity heve zero damage. Which is outside of point range, by the way. Also, Javelin gives you even further range. You could outrun them, but that's further out of point range. Sensor damp does nothing for the ships tackling you, like in my example. Quote: Please go on SiSi and ask someone with a Vindicator how your approach to her goes with a HAC of your choosing. Easy, tank it on a T2 Caldari resist profile. (Yeah, we have a Vindi on-field in that screenshot, but he didn't show up 'til after the other guy burnt out his guns. Otherwise he would've died before burning out his guns). Quote: There might be a reason why I left pirate faction ships out of here. Really? Because the aforementioned 70km point range and 8800 m/s can only be a Garmur (with a Republic Fleet point and fleet boosts, no less). Which is also hilariously vulnerable to interceptors when you're coming through a gate, so isn't amazingly realistic most of the time. As opposed to my example of a dual-ancil Torp Raven as the hammer in a tackle fleet, which is pretty damn realistic. Quote: I strongly advise to look that up yourself. Resist profile. Are you saying that resist profile somehow applies more to missiles than it does for any other weapon (when more than half of the missile-based ships can easily switch damage types)?
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 437	Posted - 2014.11.07 21:31:27 - [106] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: -sanip-Resist profile. Are you saying that resist profile somehow applies more to missiles than it does for any other weapon (when more than half of the missile-based ships can easily switch damage types)? I do not say, I know. signature
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 45	Posted - 2014.11.08 01:32:02 - [107] - Quote elitatwo wrote: I do not say, I know. Okay, feel like sharing your reason with the rest of the class?
Saberlily Whyteshadow Perkone Caldari State 54	Posted - 2014.11.08 02:32:18 - [108] - Quote Been saying this before, missiles just need to have Radial Velocity added into the missile damage formula between the missiles itself vs target. Weather it be in form of bonus damage or an added boost to explosion velocity, It will help out missile damage application. Burn head-on towards missile?? Expect to take high damage, not "Meh, my speed will reduce most of the damage.." Also change missile specialization skills from "ROF bonus" to "bonus to Explosion Radius."
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 437	Posted - 2014.11.08 02:43:58 - [109] - Quote Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: elitatwo wrote: I do not say, I know. Okay, feel like sharing your reason with the rest of the class? There you go: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5151402#post5151402 signature
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 437	Posted - 2014.11.08 02:46:53 - [110] - Quote Saberlily Whyteshadow wrote: ...Also change missile specialization skills from "ROF bonus" to "bonus to Explosion Radius." Or a 2% missile damage bonus per level instead? signature
Ghaustyl Kathix Rising Thunder 45	Posted - 2014.11.08 04:45:14 - [111] - Quote elitatwo wrote: There you go: link If in that post you mean the Base Shield Damage and Base Armor Damage stats, those are estimates of how much damage will be dealt to T1 resists. It's just a useless estimate, not a number used in damage calculations. There is "damage reduction factor" as well, but that actually increases your damage in most cases. Also, you still ignored basically everything I brought up again.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1669	Posted - 2014.11.08 06:08:52 - [112] - Quote elitatwo wrote: There you go: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5151402#post5151402 You are wrong. (& delusional) Resists apply just the same to missile damage as to gun damage. Doesn't mean there aren't other issues obviously, but these are best fixed by comparing the base application values like I said before to an unfitted ship. Rather than trying to band-aid the problem with skills.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 440	Posted - 2014.11.08 14:48:23 - [113] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: You are wrong. (& delusional) I respect you too. Nevyn Auscent wrote: Resists apply just the same to missile damage as to gun damage. Doesn't mean there aren't other issues obviously, but these are best fixed by comparing the base application values like I said before to an unfitted ship. Rather than trying to band-aid the problem with skills. Yes that do but as soon as you try to hit something moving it gets unreasonable very quickly. See it is better start somewhere and negotiate until both partes leave more or less satisfied. Though I won't win any popularity contests any time soon, I just created a large outcry. Now that I have the attention pointed to a problem, the negotiations can begin. Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: Which is outside of point range, by the way. Also, Javelin gives you even further range. You could outrun them, but that's further out of point range. Sensor damp does nothing for the ships tackling you, like in my example. As opposed to my example of a dual-ancil Torp Raven as the hammer in a tackle fleet, which is pretty damn realistic. Ghaustyl, you were pointing to a Raven with torpedos. Torpedos are very slow, application or not. I simply cannot see a torpedo hitting interceptors that yolo happy circles aroud that Raven, making fun of how those torpedo loops are looking. Even my Imperial Navy Slicer would not fear torpedos. -.- and remove acillery boosters from the game.. Ghaustyl Kathix wrote: And here we go again. "Missiles aren't as good as guns because sentry drones." That is not what I was saying. I said, even if missiles get application, the ships woudn't become unstoppable with what we have flying out there right now. This is not just limited to me when I fly dangerous but common pratice. You make your way to lowesec or nullsec and since we know that the lowsec and nullsec folks are only "brave" and confident when they outnumber you and if they bring exactly what they need to murder your ship. If you stumble upon a ship you can win against, that ship will either bail or try to keep your interest long enough until his buddies arrive. This is no joke that happens always. signature

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