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Server crashed 2006.09.03 18:32

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Sandeep Trojan industries	Posted - 2006.09.03 18:36:00 - [1] The Kaunokka node just went down.
Dengrin	Posted - 2006.09.03 18:37:00 - [2] Yeah and I just moved all my stuff here to a better quality agent, only to find that the system is a complete lag fest and now it's crashing... Not even that many people there, I don't understand this game sometimes.
Archangel Raphael	Posted - 2006.09.03 18:45:00 - [3] i am one of those who moved here to be near the quality agents to... and as said,, with only around 150 - 200 tops its near impossible to do anything,, takes 10-15 mins to log in and right now im trying to undock my hauler to head to my mining office in nyab to try and escape. until the obvious problems have been resolved.
Eewec Ourbyni Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.03 18:49:00 - [4] .... when travelling through various high sec areas, I'm lucky to find 10-15 other players in each of the systems I'm going through... you wonder why it's laggy, then mention 180-200+ other players in the same system... /me still trying to work out exactly how that should be surprising. This is a sig... -- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio -- ... good, ain't it!
Dengrin	Posted - 2006.09.03 18:57:00 - [5] Jita has probably over 600 pilots in their system right now and I can bet that it's not even close to as laggy as this... The amount of people doesn't have a whole lot to do with it in my experience. I have been through systems where the lag is unbearable with only 5 people, and I have been through starter systems at peak playing times with little to no lag at all.
MysticNZ Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:02:00 - [6] Originally by: Emily Spankratchet It's not just the number of players in a system, I get the feeling it depends a lot on what they're doing in that system. Enough players running level 4 missions - with the large number of rats and so on that that entails - can really bog down a system. Try visiting Aramachi at the weekend. Around 90 people, and you can wait 30 seconds to open a trade window. Of course it also depends on what other systems are running on that node, but we can't find that out. Because from what I know, Jita is on its own node. -=====- Xorus is teh nub :D I heard that beats player with big stick now be a good carebear and mine me some veldspar - Xorus
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:02:00 - [7] It's not just the number of players in a system, I get the feeling it depends a lot on what they're doing in that system. Enough players running level 4 missions - with the large number of rats and so on that that entails - can really bog down a system. Try visiting Aramachi at the weekend. Around 90 people, and you can wait 30 seconds to open a trade window. Of course it also depends on what other systems are running on that node, but we can't find that out.
Archangel Raphael	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:04:00 - [8] i got so bored of waiting to undock, i thought it had actually froze, so i logged out, only to have to wait 25mins to log back in.as i said ^^^ im off somewhere else,, their is something not right with kaunokka atm .
Weps Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:07:00 - [9] Had the same undock, log in problems after disconnect nr3. Something is bugged in this system.
Illegal KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:08:00 - [10] if you guys follow regular forum posts, and the dev blogs, its pretty well documented exactly HOW the system works and WHY when only 5 people are in a system, its laggy. there are multiple systems on a node, the amount of and which systems that are on a single node is dictated by the load balancing code, which tries to keep load equally balanced amongst all the nodes, if there are over 600 people, or 95% cpu load on a node, traffic advisory kicks in until the load drops. imagine Node 1 has Systems 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 on it, systems 2 - 5 are empty 24/7, system 1 is a busy system, a level 4 major agent system for example, now lets pretend system 2 is a 0.0 system, which, as i said is normally empty, one sunday there's a large fleet battle there with ship numbers in the hundreds, this node that is normally working at what? 25% is all of a sudden under extreme load, and it becomes laggy, which means all systems on that node become laggy, which means that if you just happen to be travelling through system 3, 4 or 5, which are empty, you will encounter insane lag. this is as best as i can explain it without scouting out all the dev threads and such --

Weps Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:10:00 - [11] Getting better, after jumping to Yria... another disconnect. We're f... trapped!
Flax Volcanus Tea And Sympathy Ltd. Liability	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:12:00 - [12] Yup, over 20 minutes to get in, only to find that it wasn't worth the effort. I'll give this another 45 days, then I'm out. And no, none of you can have my stuff. I'll give it to the Salvation Army and take the write-off.
Ardent Glory	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:14:00 - [13] Disco number 4....Now All I get is Quote: Your character is located within (Kaunokka), which is currently loading. Please try again in a minute. All I want to do is get out of there :(
Mongrove Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:26:00 - [14] 2 times in row : 2 times the mission go reinitialized, 2 hours lost ! Thank you so much CCP For those who said: pick another corp : I started with the caldari navy a loooong time ago, I stick with them 'cause I play as a casual player. At that time (starting L1/L2 missions), I wasn't told by the game : too much ppl run missions for the corp you choose, choose another one or you will encounter lag problems. So known either I stay in Kaunokka with the lag and the missions gettings reinitialized, either I change coorp. Bu still I'm not a hardcore player, it will take me longer ... Besides, not much corp got 18 quality L3/L4 agents, so I guess it will be the same

Valar	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:49:00 - [15] We have lost 4 nodes tonight. It seems that extreme bookmark copying is causing nodes to time out and the cluster thus consitering them dead. Over 900.000 bookmarks have been copied since downtime. We are keeping a close eye on the situtation. ------ Valar Database admin - Server operations team CCP Games How to write a good bugreport

Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:52:00 - [16] Originally by: Valar We have lost 4 nodes tonight. It seems that extreme bookmark copying is causing nodes to time out and the cluster thus consitering them dead. Over 900.000 bookmarks have been copied since downtime. We are keeping a close eye on the situtation. Thanks Valar... im not surprised. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
SonShadowCat PINK TACO TORPERS	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:53:00 - [17] Wouldn't it be simple to simply make a new patch that disables BM copying/amount.
Dudley Beekle	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:54:00 - [18] Edited by: Dudley Beekle on 03/09/2006 19:55:03 Originally by: Valar We have lost 4 nodes tonight. It seems that extreme bookmark copying is causing nodes to time out and the cluster thus consitering them dead. Over 900.000 bookmarks have been copied since downtime. We are keeping a close eye on the situtation. What did you expect when people are warned of an upcoming limit on BM copying?
Ather Ialeas Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:55:00 - [19] Originally by: Valar We have lost 4 nodes tonight. It seems that extreme bookmark copying is causing nodes to time out and the cluster thus consitering them dead. Over 900.000 bookmarks have been copied since downtime. We are keeping a close eye on the situtation. That's what you get for announcing a nerf coming in mere days, people panic and start doing the thing immediatly to counter the nerf.
Lucio Gallente Incorporated Holdings	Posted - 2006.09.03 19:55:00 - [20] Maybe you should have stealth-nerfed the bookmark copying changes then. This was bound to happen when you announced the change.... ************************************************ Yes, I know I have a negative sec. status but I'm not a pirate damnit!

Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.03 20:03:00 - [21] Originally by: Ather Ialeas That's what you get for announcing a nerf coming in mere days, people panic and start doing the thing immediatly to counter the nerf. Actually I think they announced it just a day before the patch was supposed to go live, but the patch got delayed a week? I think it was something along those lines. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Weps Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.09.03 20:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Valar We have lost 4 nodes tonight. It seems that extreme bookmark copying is causing nodes to time out and the cluster thus consitering them dead. Over 900.000 bookmarks have been copied since downtime. We are keeping a close eye on the situtation. That's what you get for announcing a nerf coming in mere days, people panic and start doing the thing immediatly to counter the nerf. [c] Yeah, and all for the noobs that dont have them. [/c] I must say, bm's are the 'most player protected making play impossible feature' I've ever seen in any game.
Ather Ialeas Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.03 20:08:00 - [23] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Ather Ialeas That's what you get for announcing a nerf coming in mere days, people panic and start doing the thing immediatly to counter the nerf. Actually I think they announced it just a day before the patch was supposed to go live, but the patch got delayed a week? I think it was something along those lines. ...which averages to four days by utilizing fuzzy logic. Cemantics :)
Mongrove Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.03 20:16:00 - [24] Originally by: Valar We are keeping a close eye on the situtation. Thx Valar for the quick answer, and thx guys for the BMs copying I think you should limit the number of BMs by character, 900k BMs is just insane
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2006.09.03 20:22:00 - [25] They ARE going to limit bookmarks, it was supposed to be installed a few days ago, but the patch got delayed. So, some folks are going nuts copying as many as they can before the change goes into effect, and causing problems for everybody else.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.03 20:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Mongrove Originally by: Valar We are keeping a close eye on the situtation. Thx Valar for the quick answer, and thx guys for the BMs copying I think you should limit the number of BMs by character, 900k BMs is just insane 140k accounts so that's an average of less than 9BMs per account. Hardly insane. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Flax Volcanus Tea And Sympathy Ltd. Liability	Posted - 2006.09.03 20:29:00 - [27] Thanks for posting a heads-up. Hope the new cap eases the problem. Originally by: Valar We have lost 4 nodes tonight. It seems that extreme bookmark copying is causing nodes to time out and the cluster thus consitering them dead. Over 900.000 bookmarks have been copied since downtime. We are keeping a close eye on the situtation.
Big Al Roving Band of Bunnies	Posted - 2006.09.03 20:47:00 - [28] Originally by: SonShadowCat Wouldn't it be simple to simply make a new patch that disables BM copying/amount. It has been proven time and time again that simple and patch do not belong in the same sentence for this game.
Chain Gang	Posted - 2006.09.03 20:50:00 - [29] The game in "my little corner of the world" is now un-playable ........ Thankyou
Snikkt Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.03 20:53:00 - [30] I think all accounts need to be limited to 50-150 bookmarks. ------------------- If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Hakera	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:01:00 - [31] been said a million times, delete any bm within 150k of a gate, add a warp to 0 option that cant be defaulted to so no one can ap without risk.
Lela Lebwohl	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:03:00 - [32] Seems the bookmarks are causing alot of trouble for those that are NOT coppying bookmarks. This is not acceptable
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:10:00 - [33] Originally by: Lela Lebwohl Seems the bookmarks are causing alot of trouble for those that are NOT coppying bookmarks. This is not acceptable QFT.. Why can't the devs or gm's kick the ones copying insane amounts of bms and stop them from ruining the game for the rest of us. I got kicked from jita and now this Your character is located within (Jita), which is currently loading. Please try again in a moment. kick those bm copying retards dammit
Smada Templar Republic	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:14:00 - [34] To stop all this BM shenanigans - just give everyone a full set of full grade Snake implants then they won't need BMs! Sorted! Job Done! No more BM copy induced lag, no more nodes dying
Tradingjoe	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:15:00 - [35] Originally by: Valar We have lost 4 nodes tonight. It seems that extreme bookmark copying is causing nodes to time out and the cluster thus consitering them dead. Over 900.000 bookmarks have been copied since downtime. We are keeping a close eye on the situtation. Maybe if your bookmark 'fix' wasn't half arsed this wouldn't happen. Its hack, bandaid coding. Bookmarks are just as important as always, you just made them much harder for new players to get. Nice job, did the guy who came up with that solution get a bonus? Yea I'm mad, I was expecting something more reasonable as a soultion. Instead I can't play on a holiday weekend, and I'll still be bookmark screwed for the regions I don't have yet. Thanks.
Miss Mickey	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:18:00 - [36] Right now I'm thinking they should do DT twice a day. At least then there would be two 11 hour periods of good play rather than 11 hours of good play and 12 hours of total uncertainty!! Seems the longer the cluster is up the worse it gets and right now it struggles to last a full 23 hour cycle!!
Wat0721 GalacTECH Unlimited	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:18:00 - [37] Originally by: Hakera been said a million times, delete any bm within 150k of a gate, add a warp to 0 option that cant be defaulted to so no one can ap without risk. --- ECM Fix
syphurous	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:26:00 - [38] I was one of the ones copying a crap load of bookmarks. I finally meet up with a friend online who's been playing a lot longer than I have. He gave me a copy of his bookmarks so I might move faster through the universe. ( and safer ) It was a one time thing, atleast till I move to another region where some new bookmarks will come in handy. If you're not going to support something you need to remove it or find a better method. Warping to structures that never move shouldn't mean having to come in at 15km, perhaps one of the navigation skills can affect your warp accuracy and allow better distance ? I'm guessing the 15km is so that you dont get ships piled up on top of each other at gates and choking the jump gates. You really need to think of a solution that's going to work with everyone.
IKickCats	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:28:00 - [39] As a newb at day 12 of the 14 free trial. One Question... is the amount of downtime lately "normal" or above average? I understand that there has been a major patch applied - however - In the last 12 days I have been unable to login for close to two days. Apparently today I was unlucky enough to warp through the Jita Gate and now can not get into the game... again. Just curious before I put my $$ in - seems like a great game, but if this is "normal" downtime at 5%-8%, then I need a lot more money for keeping my network at 4 nines availability. Cheers.
Lela Lebwohl	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:28:00 - [40] its a nice try of the GM team to ask the players nicely, but I fear that the reason so much coppying is done is to make money, and they will not care about the wellfare of most. But I can understand that its the best the GM team can do right away. I hope actions will be taken so the copy cats cant bother the majority of the players in the future.

Glassback M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:28:00 - [41] JUST GIVE US WARP TO 0 AND GET RID OF THE FUCJING THINGS, EVERYONE GETS BM'S IN THE END ANYWAY!!!!!!!! G. I've got an idea--an idea so smart that my head would explode if I even began to know what I'm talking about
Shanzem DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:29:00 - [42] Dear players. Nodes have been dropping and we are experiencing massive load on our system. We have found the cause of this. It seems that our valued players are overloading the server by copying massive ammounts of bookmarks. This is bringing our server to a critical state. We ask you, the players to stop copying bookmarks. This is the only way for you to be able to enjoy normal gameplay. We sincerely hope that our request will not fall on deaf ears. All the best, The GM Team thats the way aaaah haaa we like it aah haa :) -------------------------------------------
MOAB DaBomb Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:30:00 - [43] Originally by: Valar We have lost 4 nodes tonight. It seems that extreme bookmark copying is causing nodes to time out and the cluster thus consitering them dead. Over 900.000 bookmarks have been copied since downtime. We are keeping a close eye on the situtation. Well DUH... Nerf BM copying to hell and watch everyone spend the weekend making sure all their friends and buddies have whatever BMs they want/need. CCP brought it on themselves this time.
Pesky LaRue Minmatar L.O.S.T. Foundation	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:30:00 - [44] Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 03/09/2006 21:30:22 while I'm an ardent supporter and fan of CCP, i can't help but feel that ]this is an issue that needs to be addressed by them, and not pushed back onto a largely deaf playerbase. of course, without knowing the structure of the code it's hard to make recommendations, but getting rid of all bookmarks associated with a char that hasn't been in use for (say) 18 months would be a good start. as would making bm's copied into cans or hangers operate on a time-limit that would vanish at the end of the window. there must be many better ways of handling this than saying "stop copying your bm's", people won't do it while bm's are so essential to the game. This message came from the Minmatar Messiah, accept no imitations Pesky LaRue, Minmatar Messiah Bringing Salvation To Your System Soon! ++ PRAY FOR PESKY ++
Idono Caldari Tyrell Corp Curse Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:30:00 - [45] Originally by: Hakera been said a million times, delete any bm within 150k of a gate, add a warp to 0 option that cant be defaulted to so no one can ap without risk. Would be good with 0 km warps. but they should only be avalible if at war and in lowsec systems. And they should only be avalible if youve curently visited that object.
Gierling Gallente Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:31:00 - [46] Ok who's fighting RA?
Darpz Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:32:00 - [47] just give us a temporyary warp to 0 only under manuel warp with the understanding that its temp till you comeup with something better. then delete all BMs in the same grid as the gates. but still allow them to be made but with the game mechanic built in no one will **** with instas thus freeing up lag. not the perfect solution but the preferable quick fix for the current situation if bms are cuasing the issues you say they are. oh and i'm copying bms too, sorry but i cna't risk not having them with the current changes
Jongo Fett Caldari Imperial Space Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:33:00 - [48] why not prevent Bm's from been traded or put on escrow? this would probilly reduce the amount of people who will copy them
SyIpha	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:34:00 - [49] For God's sake..put in an easy fix..it's not hard! Put in a skill book to train to learn to warp closer to an object..such as gates, stations. I promise you if ppl had that option, bookmarks would not be used as instas. It is an easy fix...and would release up 100's of thousands of bookmarks! 1 + 1 Does equal 2!
Katarina Hetiako	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:34:00 - [50] Easy fix, Allow Warp to 0km. PROBLEM SOLVED I see no issue with copying bookmarks, but the mass copying of instas (for what is now the standard form of travel) is just out of control. Stop being stubborn and hotfix this please.

Hippo117 Caldari 9th Fleet Academy	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:34:00 - [51] I said this when CCP first bombed us with news about the bookmark copy nerf, and I'll say it again. Planning to nerf something like this so severely is not in the games best interest, especially when ccp has not planned a replacement. If there was no impending copy nerf, would we be having this problem right now? No, we wouldn't. so how is this nerf helping lag at all? It's pretty effectively making the game unplayable for many today so that maybe in the future they can run with less lag? That is not an appropriate trade. what ccp is doing is removing a tool to players, intended or not. They have no confirmed plans to fill this hole, yet make it anyway. In preperation for a storm people will stock up on food and supplies. this is exactly what is going on now, but this is a man made storm and can be stopped, yet CCP makes no attempts to do so. -------------- My opinions may not represent the opinions of my corporation or alliance. Booby > Rokh Nerf damps.
Chain Gang	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:34:00 - [52] Quote: I think all accounts need to be limited to 50 With a warp to 0km then that is a solution ......... come on CCP its only going to get worse until Tuesday ..
nardaq	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:35:00 - [53] yup, to get the bookmarks before the patch, like DUH!! GJ players, keep them comming and i mean that, it's CCP's problem!!
AceOfSpace Myth...	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:36:00 - [54] If you schedule a patch to nerf BM copying, of course people are going to be doing a lot of it at the last minute. That's just.. sensible. -where there's an ace, there's a way-
Happydayz FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:39:00 - [55] Originally by: AceOfSpace If you schedule a patch to nerf BM copying, of course people are going to be doing a lot of it at the last minute. That's just.. sensible. CCP evidently does not understand the whole concept of cause and effect
Tradingjoe	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:39:00 - [56] Originally by: Jongo Fett why not prevent Bm's from been traded or put on escrow? this would probilly reduce the amount of people who will copy them Oh thats good, why not take something vital and limit it only to old players who already copied them. Thats brilliant! I think you are ready for the dev team there.
Altai Saker Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:40:00 - [57] lol, sorry but this is just what happens when you announce a half assed solution, nerf copying bms? Of course people are going to copy all their sets...
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:40:00 - [58] Originally by: IKickCats As a newb at day 12 of the 14 free trial. One Question... is the amount of downtime lately "normal" or above average? I understand that there has been a major patch applied - however - In the last 12 days I have been unable to login for close to two days. Apparently today I was unlucky enough to warp through the Jita Gate and now can not get into the game... again. Just curious before I put my $$ in - seems like a great game, but if this is "normal" downtime at 5%-8%, then I need a lot more money for keeping my network at 4 nines availability. Cheers. This is basically the worst I've seen in 2 years... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Xendie Hunter Killers	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:40:00 - [59] it is a direct result of the forced 5 BM copying everyone and their mother is now copying to make a extra isk since the prices on bookmarks is going up and up by the minute. what is next thing?, you have to stop using more then 1 drone at the time as the nodes will not take it? fix the servers, atleast that is what we are paying you for isnt it CCP? we pay money each month to play on the servers and this last month and a half the servers have been going on their knees daily and gameplay and value for money has been going down steadily with it. stop fiddling with yourself and fix it, personally i dont care how you do it but a bone hard stance on anyone found macromining could be a sure way to remove 10k macroers that you are currently ignoring. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
darklegionca DarkCorp Mining inc	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:41:00 - [60] here's an awesome idea ban everyone until the patch is out or bring the patch out tonight so then we dont have this bloody prb

DirtyHarry Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:42:00 - [61] Time to act CCP, at least give a temp fix to BMs like the warp to 0 suggested and delete all bms within 150km of a gate... Havocide - DirtyHarry
Herculite Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:42:00 - [62] Originally by: Hakera been said a million times, delete any bm within 150k of a gate, add a warp to 0 option that cant be defaulted to so no one can ap without risk. While I like the idea of BM's on paper, information is power and players who take the time to make or gather them deserve it, but since they can't seem to make simple XYZ coordinates not choke the system I have to agree with Hakera. The solution given in the upcomming patch shows a lack of foresight on the part of the devs.
Gretchen Dawntreader Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:42:00 - [63] Edited by: Gretchen Dawntreader on 03/09/2006 21:44:30 I can't for the life of me figure out why people would be copying lots of bookmarks. Gosh, it couldn't possibly have to do with an announced nerf scheduled for tuesday? </sarcasm> Yeah and as for all the problems caused to the servers....wasn't there a lot of hooplah and marching bands around the upgrades to the cluster and how it was now a super-server capable of handling everything even twice as many players could throw at it? How come it's hobbling around like an amputee all of a sudden....
Darpz Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:43:00 - [64] Originally by: Siege Warp to 0 is just a step or two from making all PvP consensual, and renaming the game 'Veldspar Tycoon'. No thanks. how so? you got dictor bubbles, you got sensor booster to lock ships faster on the warp out. its the same as it would be now you just wouldn't be able to gank the nubs that don't have BMs. Hell make warping a trainable skill. introduce a 10km warp distance. that then is decreasedby a rank 2-4 skill so lvl 1 it would be 8 lvl 2 6 lvl 3 4 lvl 4 2 (basically an insta but not perfect due to the varience built into the game I imagin with is what most people would stick with) lvl 5 0 and would be a perfect insta everytime but at the expensce of a couple weeks of training
Eevul Bunneh	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:44:00 - [65] A bit ridiculous to ask 'your valued players' to stop doing what you made them do... just feed the hamsters imo.
Slaaght Bana Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:44:00 - [66] I've had a thought. Keep BMs in game as they are. Sort of. Allow BMs to be USED in the Eve client, but DO NOT allow them to be COPIED in the client. Have a seperate mini client that just exists for bookmark filing and modification. Here's the important bit ... make that client just interact with a SQL server that is not linked to Tranquility, call it Server X. Then roll the incremental changes of Server X's BM tables into Tranquility during downtime each day. That totally removes all BM copying transactions from the Tranquility cluster.
Pestillence Revelations Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:47:00 - [67] Originally by: SyIpha For God's sake..put in an easy fix..it's not hard! Put in a skill book to train to learn to warp closer to an object..such as gates, stations. I promise you if ppl had that option, bookmarks would not be used as instas. It is an easy fix...and would release up 100's of thousands of bookmarks! 1 + 1 Does equal 2! Skill is stupid. It's a must train for new players and so penalises them since they cant train other skills. I agree CCP brought this on themselves tho.
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:47:00 - [68] Originally by: Siege Warp to 0 is just a step or two from making all PvP consensual, and renaming the game 'Veldspar Tycoon'. No thanks. Making lousy pirates that call themselves pvpers (gatecampers) actually do proper pvp is a good thing, its your tactics that suck as well as your skills.
Gretchen Dawntreader Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:48:00 - [69] this is very similar to SWG putting in a macro language then spending 2 years trying to figure out new methods to defeat all the ways player used macros. SELF CAUSED PROBLEM.
Price Watcher	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:49:00 - [70] Dear CCP: 1. Give us all warp to 0km. 2. No special skills, even noobs have it. 3. Make it work on autopilot. 4. Delete all current bookmarks. Do not allow new bookmarks within 1,000,000,000km of gate or station. 5. STOP ADDING NEW STUFF UNTIL YOU CAN MAKE THE OLD STUFF WORK! We need a YEAR without ANY 'new content'. Nothing but BUG FIXES. New content that does not work is WORTHLESS.

Sean Dillon Caldari Shadows of the Dead Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:49:00 - [71] U knew this would happen, enjoy your own lagg creation and many upset users.
Nadija Wolfenrecon	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:50:00 - [72] I dunno if theres an offical post about bms & suggestion how to fix how much lag they cause... but how about banning Bookmarks from escrow... just like u can't put cargo containers & contraband on escrow... Also how about giving character's places folder a limit of how many boolmarks they can hold... like maybe 1000-2000... cuz mopst ppl have 10000+ & if they still have too many after the rule comes into effect... then a random amout will get wipped.... MY SIG BANNER GALLERY
Treelox Amarr Storm Industries	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:50:00 - [73] lol that gm msg, asking us to stop coping bm's please. Has to be the funniest thing I have ever read from a GM in 20yrs of on-line gaming. Seriously WTF did they think would happen this weekend. Hell Id be coping too, if I had a kador set from a reliable source. WTB Kador Region gate to gate BM set ------- My sig seemed to disapper, let me try again...
Blind Man Caldari Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:51:00 - [74] GEE GUYS, maybe bookmarks ARE a problem? SignatureTemporarily Out Of Order
Anomaly21 Caldari Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:53:00 - [75] Ok AFAIK the reason the BM limitation is being put into place is people exploiting game mechanics and copying BM's into shuttles and leaving them in POS's to lag out attackers and such. It has nothing to do with instas. So to fix this and not having to deal with the big problem of finding a decent replacement why can't you just make it so that BMs can only be copied while docked in stations into the items window and cannot be placed into any ships hangar or containers or anything of the like? This would fix the problem of people using BMs to exploit game mechanics and it wouldn't cause an extreme uproar from the majority of the game community not having instas or being able to copy them. The current idea to fix the situation is just going to cause an uproar with the majority of the community and isn't going to stop the minority that is causing the problem. Even though you'll only be able to copy 5 at a time people will still sit there and copy exploiting away. All that means is they have to make more clicks now. This is not my idea. I saw it posted and no one responded to it. So I am reposting this and will hopefuly get a response to why this can't be done .. and please correct me if I'm wrong. You're friendly neighborhood ECM Queen :o
zykerx Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:53:00 - [76] i bought 15 sets of bm's and loaded them on a alt, so i could start copying them to my other alts ( 4 accounts ) and a set towards corp but when i had them finally loaded on my alt ccp came with there ooh yeah were gooing to nerf bm copying even more. wel im copying bm until patch to safe some of my investment i made (costed alot) bm are a must at 0.0 ccp should have come with other solution and telling everyone ya gona nerf something important as this was not rly a smart thingh todo, persionally happy with that as otherwise a useless alt would have al my bought sets and not my mains
Darpz Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:53:00 - [77] Originally by: Nadija I dunno if theres an offical post about bms & suggestion how to fix how much lag they cause... but how about banning Bookmarks from escrow... just like u can't put cargo containers & contraband on escrow... Also how about giving character's places folder a limit of how many boolmarks they can hold... like maybe 1000-2000... cuz mopst ppl have 10000+ & if they still have too many after the rule comes into effect... then a random amout will get wipped.... that would be worse, since people would keep extra region bms in shuttles and would need to spend time swapping out bms when they are operating in different areas
ForceAttuned Krogoth InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:53:00 - [78] Please stop coppying BMs, like everyone on the server is doing it for the patch tuesday, and its killing my fleet ops.
Shiraz Merlot Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:54:00 - [79] Originally by: Valar We have lost 4 nodes tonight. It seems that extreme bookmark copying is causing nodes to time out and the cluster thus consitering them dead. Over 900.000 bookmarks have been copied since downtime. I predicted this to corp + friends the day you announced the copy nerf. Hopefully this will remind you why you don't pre-announce nerfings! /sm
Lori Carlyle Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:55:00 - [80] I can't stop laughing. I hope you saved some of that $$$ i have a feeling your going to need it soon.

Dorah Hawkwing Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:56:00 - [81] Well... last week, it was deicde to move to a new region, and to aquire acess region BM's and the unsec area BM's and distribute them in corp, for moving. Then the nerf was anounced. Now.. we can either hope for a warp to 0 km option, or try and make sure everyone affected has a copy of BM's before copying BM's becomes neigh impossible without chaining someone to the screen. Guess what happens (and no, I'm not a fan of having to copy BM's. But without BM's, lowsec and unsec life becomes so much more dangerous and prone to ship loss, that going without them is simply suicidically stupid.). So, My guess is the message was caused not by BM's copied for profit, but by everyone and their dog trying to get their BM copying done befoe the patch makes it a really incredible boring and labour intense travail. A BM fix is not making them incredible work intensive to copy, but making them unecessary by providing their funktion by a less database intesive replacement: The warp to 0 km option.
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:56:00 - [82] Originally by: Siege Warp to 0 is just a step or two from making all PvP consensual, and renaming the game 'Veldspar Tycoon'. No thanks. wow, geee, so saying what is happening is somehow a GM blowing their top, and insulting us??? geeez, the message says what is happening and ask nicely fro us to STOP so others can play that are not camping and copying...is that so hard for YOU to understand??? I took it as an FYI, but I guess SOME people have really thin skin and narrow minds. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Wat0721 GalacTECH Unlimited	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:56:00 - [83] Originally by: Siege Warp to 0 is just a step or two from making all PvP consensual, and renaming the game 'Veldspar Tycoon'. No thanks. Wow, you totally missed the point. Warp to 0 just means that all of the gate-catching moves to the other side of the gate -- where it already is anyway. Want to catch someone going into a system? Use a bubble. Want to catch someone going to the next gate? Get an inty. Or a bubble. But there's no reason to not warp to the gates within/near jump range as-is -- CCP put in the 15km warp as a means of slowing down travel and allowing PvP on the inside of gates. People made hundreds of thousands of instas to allow travel ("warp to 0km."), and insta-travel has become the norm. Now the DB is bogged down. So...why not just give up the "warp to 15km" option period, give it to everyone, and let combat take place on the other side of the gate anyway? Only problem? It's a nerf to BSes sniping noobs in shuttles from outside of sentry range in low-sec. Darn. --- ECM Fix
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:58:00 - [84] immedate downtime and a immediate ban on bookmark copying is needed CCP - dont allow em to rush it before the patch. This should have been done anyway
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:58:00 - [85] Originally by: Price Watcher 3. Make it work on autopilot. What in blazes for? Autopilot should remain as it is. Warp to 0 replaces the instas that everyone already has so it doesn't make any practical difference. But warp to 0 for autopilot? That's stupid. If you fly afk you should be vulnerable. If you put the effort in and stay at your keyboard you benefit from reduced risk travel. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Nadija Wolfenrecon	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:59:00 - [86] U zykerx are 1 of the reasons y nodes keep crashing!! why the hell do u need 15 sets of bms for anyways?? didn't u see that CCP asked u to stop copying atm... cuz otherwise if people carry on the game will prolly crash MY SIG BANNER GALLERY
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:59:00 - [87] Originally by: Anomaly21 Ok AFAIK the reason the BM limitation is being put into place is people exploiting game mechanics and copying BM's into shuttles and leaving them in POS's to lag out attackers and such. It has nothing to do with instas. So to fix this and not having to deal with the big problem of finding a decent replacement why can't you just make it so that BMs can only be copied while docked in stations into the items window and cannot be placed into any ships hangar or containers or anything of the like? This would fix the problem of people using BMs to exploit game mechanics and it wouldn't cause an extreme uproar from the majority of the game community not having instas or being able to copy them. The current idea to fix the situation is just going to cause an uproar with the majority of the community and isn't going to stop the minority that is causing the problem. Even though you'll only be able to copy 5 at a time people will still sit there and copy exploiting away. All that means is they have to make more clicks now. This is not my idea. I saw it posted and no one responded to it. So I am reposting this and will hopefuly get a response to why this can't be done .. and please correct me if I'm wrong. WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING AT US ALL!!! dont bold everything you say...it is rude FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
SonShadowCat PINK TACO TORPERS	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:00:00 - [88] It's nice to see people continue to copy BM even though they know they're destroying the server and gameplay for everyone else.
SyIpha	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:00:00 - [89] Originally by: Tradingjoe Originally by: Jongo Fett why not prevent Bm's from been traded or put on escrow? this would probilly reduce the amount of people who will copy them Oh thats good, why not take something vital and limit it only to old players who already copied them. Thats brilliant! I think you are ready for the dev team there. QFT! lol
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:02:00 - [90] CCP shut the server down and ban ALL ISNTA COPYING UNTIL TOMORROWS PATCH Its the only solution as players arent going to stop copying instas even on youre asking - so shut that system down if u dont want continue server crashes until tomorrow. To all u fools just keep going force CCP to act its the only way (reverse pscyhology)

Darpz Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:02:00 - [91] Originally by: Viktor Beck Insta bookmarks causing problems? Get rid of them and make a warp in at 10km. Makes everyone happy. warp to 10km would not make everyone happy
darklegionca DarkCorp Mining inc	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:02:00 - [92] Dear players. The Jita system is causing players to become stuck. Please try and avoid this system for the time being while the load balancing system attempts to resolve the issue. - All the best, The GM Team this is a sad day for eve
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:03:00 - [93] Originally by: SonShadowCat It's nice to see people continue to copy BM even though they know they're destroying the server and gameplay for everyone else. What do you think they are going to do? This game is a community of human beings and they will exploit it the way humans always do. You can't just tell people not to do something and expect that they will comply. Only a fool and at least one government I'm all too familiar with would believe otherwise. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Darpz Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:04:00 - [94] Originally by: SonShadowCat It's nice to see people continue to copy BM even though they know they're destroying the server and gameplay for everyone else. if it makes CCP relise there folly I don't care. if ccp would right now say that the new patch introduces warp to 0 it would solve 90% of the copying, hell I don't think they would even need to delete bms, people would volunarily since they lag the client so much
MOAB DaBomb Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:05:00 - [95] I'm waiting to see this next: --- Dear Players. Many players are currently experiencing lag and stuck characters. The GM team is currently working to resolve the situation. In the mean time please cease all bookmark copying. Also at this time to give the servers a chance to recover we would like everyone to dock and stare at the inside of the station for the next several hours while we figure out what to do with the problem we caused. Not the GM Team
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:05:00 - [96] Originally by: Miss Overlord CCP shut the server down and ban ALL ISNTA COPYING UNTIL TOMORROWS PATCH Its the only solution as players arent going to stop copying instas even on youre asking - so shut that system down if u dont want continue server crashes until tomorrow. To all u fools just keep going force CCP to act its the only way (reverse pscyhology) Please disable all insta copying until tomorrows patch when the new 5 per time limit comes in common CCP this is the lag causing issue and youre allowing to to continue
Lynn Fang	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:06:00 - [97] Edited by: Lynn Fang on 03/09/2006 22:06:23 Tractor beam bpo's come into my mind. It's time for a new joke like that. Let people copy thousands of BPCs like mad and then make all gate near BMs useless with in the patch.
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:06:00 - [98] Originally by: Darpz Originally by: SonShadowCat It's nice to see people continue to copy BM even though they know they're destroying the server and gameplay for everyone else. if it makes CCP relise there folly I don't care. if ccp would right now say that the new patch introduces warp to 0 it would solve 90% of the copying, hell I don't think they would even need to delete bms, people would volunarily since they lag the client so much immediate solution ive presented. Lets see if they are smart enough to listen
errinung triton Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:08:00 - [99] Well they should have expected this, a limit of 5 seems a little low to me. I understand why they don't want to make it client side, but it would solve a lot of hassle. Custom Signatures for 10 million Isk, EVE mail please.
levitron Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:08:00 - [100] Originally by: Valar We have lost 4 nodes tonight. It seems that extreme bookmark copying is causing nodes to time out and the cluster thus consitering them dead. Over 900.000 bookmarks have been copied since downtime. We are keeping a close eye on the situtation. Just get rid of BM's.. Give us warp to 0 or give a skill that gives us that. Everyone already has it anyway with BM's and they just kill the database of the game. Get rid of the idiocy.

Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:08:00 - [101] hmmm anyone caught at the moment copying large instas should be just dropped from the server.
Feline Ferocity Caldari The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:09:00 - [102] Originally by: Siege So, some folks are going nuts copying as many as they can before the change goes into effect, and causing problems for everybody else. Selfish basties CCP, just make bookmarks non-existant... its rather quite simple We need a YEAR without ANY 'new content'. Nothing but BUG FIXES. New content that does not work is WORTHLESS.
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:09:00 - [103] Originally by: levitron Originally by: Valar We have lost 4 nodes tonight. It seems that extreme bookmark copying is causing nodes to time out and the cluster thus consitering them dead. Over 900.000 bookmarks have been copied since downtime. We are keeping a close eye on the situtation. Just get rid of BM's.. Give us warp to 0 or give a skill that gives us that. Everyone already has it anyway with BM's and they just kill the database of the game. Get rid of the idiocy. in the meantime just disable BM copying until tuesdays patch taht would well 900000 less BMs every 12 hours.
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:10:00 - [104] Originally by: errinung triton Well they should have expected this, a limit of 5 seems a little low to me. I understand why they don't want to make it client side, but it would solve a lot of hassle. even 10 without client side at a time would be good (its 5 at a time) so highlight 5 copy , then rinse and repeat will just mean that ppl cant highlight 500 and go afk while it lags the game out Until tomorrows patch CCP should disable all bookmark copying because as the patch gets closer ppl aer just going to distribute all their regional ones before the new limits
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:11:00 - [105] Originally by: Feline Ferocity Originally by: Siege So, some folks are going nuts copying as many as they can before the change goes into effect, and causing problems for everybody else. Selfish basties CCP, just make bookmarks non-existant... its rather quite simple until the new patch comes in just disable ALL BM COPYING. Might require a quick downtime and some tweaks but hey will make the next few days less laggy
Tana Pleiades Caldari Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:11:00 - [106] Warp to 0km now! If you want to gank use inty's on the other side, or bubbles or interdicters! Everyone uses instas already so game play wouldnt be altered.. well except there would be no lag...
Anomaly21 Caldari Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:11:00 - [107] Edited by: Anomaly21 on 03/09/2006 22:11:27 Originally by: Anomaly21 Ok AFAIK the reason the BM limitation is being put into place is people exploiting game mechanics and copying BM's into shuttles and leaving them in POS's to lag out attackers and such. It has nothing to do with instas. So to fix this and not having to deal with the big problem of finding a decent replacement why can't you just make it so that BMs can only be copied while docked in stations into the items window and cannot be placed into any ships hangar or containers or anything of the like? This would fix the problem of people using BMs to exploit game mechanics and it wouldn't cause an extreme uproar from the majority of the game community not having instas or being able to copy them. The current idea to fix the situation is just going to cause an uproar with the majority of the community and isn't going to stop the minority that is causing the problem. Even though you'll only be able to copy 5 at a time people will still sit there and copy exploiting away. All that means is they have to make more clicks now. This is not my idea. I saw it posted and no one responded to it. So I am reposting this and will hopefuly get a response to why this can't be done .. and please correct me if I'm wrong. ^^ Umm hello ... This thing on? ^^ You're friendly neighborhood ECM Queen :o
SonShadowCat PINK TACO TORPERS	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:14:00 - [108] Originally by: Andrue Originally by: SonShadowCat It's nice to see people continue to copy BM even though they know they're destroying the server and gameplay for everyone else. What do you think they are going to do? This game is a community of human beings and they will exploit it the way humans always do. You can't just tell people not to do something and expect that they will comply. Only a fool and at least one government I'm all too familiar with would believe otherwise. I guess I expected too much from stupid/selfish humans.
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:14:00 - [109] Originally by: Tana Pleiades Warp to 0km now! If you want to gank use inty's on the other side, or bubbles or interdicters! Everyone uses instas already so game play wouldnt be altered.. well except there would be no lag... have to agree warp to 0km is needed but in the meantime till that system is ready ban all BM copying until tomorrows patch where 5 at a time will limit its lag inducing abilty
ObiDoom Kenobi Gallente Element Eighty	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:16:00 - [110] Here's a question, would it make the server load any lighter if the people copying tons of BM's went to a less crowded system? I just saw the message saying Jita was basically broken, so I'm wondering if the trade off between copying BM and the server working is to just go to a less popular system. Obviously the people copying BM's don't want the server to shut down either, because then you can't copy BM's.

Qahlan	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:21:00 - [111] Originally by: SonShadowCat It's nice to see people continue to copy BM even though they know they're destroying the server and gameplay for everyone else. It's to be expected. Seems a group of players have decided this is their game and theirs alone and they got a right to nagg whine and do as they please. Reading the forums the last few days was a constant flood of "MY gameplay is not what I like it to be, fix MY gameplay, I pay, I demand to be able to play MY game MY way". Don't get me wrong. It's not like I want to make it seem that there aren't any problems. It's just the way a certain group of players seems to have this strange sense of being entitled to whatever they want. Personally I am not all that suprised about the bookmarking in large quantities and not being willing to stop types. They seem to be part of OUR game. What certain people fail to realise is that the type of service they demand only comes for those who pay big. Companies order such services for their most important processes, those that can not go down cause it would either cause harm (hospitals and such) or cost to much money. Those 99,99% uptime contracts cost big money. Another thing is the content demand. Server updates get tested, and still MS security patches make for quite a lot of situations in wich companies suffer downtime on their sytem. Do all those whiners really think Eve will survive the cost of the service they demand? Can they afford it? Judging by their behavior and speach I highly doubt that. Sounds more like 14 year olds having mommy and daddy pay for the game.
Audrea Widowmakers Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:27:00 - [112] I dont give a damn about the devs problem.. I need instas to many regions, and as long as i duno for sure what replacement system there is going to be for instas the the 'future', I will be copying sets until the last second before the patch! The servers may die 100 times a day for all I care. I dont do anything else than copying until the patch anyway Thats because I am uncertain what the replacement would be. And I dont want to be the one getting screwed at the end. ------------------ Tired of fleet combat lag? -Post HERE All posts are my personal opinions.
Wat0721 GalacTECH Unlimited	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:28:00 - [113] Here's a question -- of the people who paid ISK for safe travel through <region>...how many of you would be upset if we could have drastically-reduced lag, but all of your bookmarks were deleted? Personally, I'd be fine with that -- but I can understand that some might object. That seems to be something CCP would have to face if they went ahead with deleting the unholy amount of BMs. --- ECM Fix
Silthis Marna Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:29:00 - [114] Originally by: Valar It seems that extreme bookmark copying is causing nodes to time out and the cluster thus consitering them dead. Over 900.000 bookmarks have been copied since downtime. I dig Eve, I really do. CCP could break the gaming system in any number of ways, and I'd just roll over and accept it, because the greater scope of play is what I like about it. Nerfing gate to gate BMs without providing an equivalent and most importantly, equal solution would totally kill this game for me and many others. If I wanted to play a travel game, I'd have bought Ship Simulator 2006. Stop beating around the bush CCP. If you're going to complain about players using your game mechanics to make their travel both quicker and (marginally) safer, be decisive and tell us how you plan to fix this. -- Vote 1 - Warp to 0km
Feline Ferocity Caldari The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:30:00 - [115] Originally by: Treelox its great to see all these warp to 0km options, and what not ppl are suggesting. To help get rid of BM's IMO most of us forget that a lot of BM's are used for safe spots, loot cans, and for the ease mining in belts. Whats to happen to those bm's in a warp to 0 system? But i thought i just said not long ago to make bookmarks non-existant. And you can make safespots without bookmarks, just waste half your cap with a MWD then warp somewhere, you wouldn't need to worry about people finding your safe and waiting there until you go there again, chances are you wouldn't land in the same place (unless your lucky/unlucky, depending on the situation) Plus they aren't going to get rid of probes, so if you had a safespot with cans there you can just probe them. Meh ------- We need a YEAR without ANY 'new content'. Nothing but BUG FIXES. New content that does not work is WORTHLESS.
Runt Mcgoire Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:33:00 - [116] Originally by: zykerx ooh and why did i buy so many regions, wel it was a investment for myself and to share with my corpmembers that could use some of the regions for pvp or safe hauling/npcing So, you are one of those that overload the system just in case you might need an insta for some forsaken system you will never put your egg in??? Make sense. You part of the Lemming crew? You should. R
Gorr Hajus	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:34:00 - [117] I am on the 7 day trial. I was hoping to find a good game to go to after being bored by other games. I seriously doubt it now. I am in Jita and had no idea it was a bad zone. Plus I had no choice to go there because I had a storyline mission that was "very important". I missed the bonus and will probably fail the mission. I was disconnected 3 times and read 4 chapters in a novel waiting for it while the screen that says Entering the game was up for about an hour. Plus I can't play another character because 1. he cannot train because my 1st character is training, 2. he can't finish the tutorial because I am not allowed past the part teaching you about training because I can't train (I can always cancel out of the tutorial - but I miss a lot. I'd still do it if not for #3 ->>>), and 3. my 2nd character is crashing as much as my 1st character.
Eriv Kendri Caldari Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:34:00 - [118] Get rid of instas - the players that are worth keeping won't quit over it and for those few that do, they will be replaced by peeps that dont care about instas, never having known them - warp to 0km now!
Amedina The Legion.	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:35:00 - [119] Originally by: Treelox its great to see all these warp to 0km options, and what not ppl are suggesting. To help get rid of BM's IMO most of us forget that a lot of BM's are used for safe spots, loot cans, and for the ease mining in belts. Whats to happen to those bm's in a warp to 0 system? Well, I think alot of people would delete their g2g bm's in a 0km system, and only use bookmarks for safe spots, scan spots and mining points. No one is saying remove them all together, just remove g2g ones. Either warp to 0 or 1km or keep 15km but give a navi skill that reduces distance with 2,55km, tho last option would be semi redundant as everyone would max it right away. Auto pilot should stay at 15km, as moving a stabbed BS 40 jumps through 0.0 on auto pilot is just wrong
levitron Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:36:00 - [120] Originally by: Miss Overlord Originally by: errinung triton Well they should have expected this, a limit of 5 seems a little low to me. I understand why they don't want to make it client side, but it would solve a lot of hassle. even 10 without client side at a time would be good (its 5 at a time) so highlight 5 copy , then rinse and repeat will just mean that ppl cant highlight 500 and go afk while it lags the game out Until tomorrows patch CCP should disable all bookmark copying because as the patch gets closer ppl aer just going to distribute all their regional ones before the new limits You mean Tuesday's patch..we have another whole day to copy them

Veto1024	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:36:00 - [121] Edited by: Veto1024 on 03/09/2006 22:40:28 1) Players create too many bookmarks 2) Players copy and sell bookmarks 3) Players copy bookmarks like mad today and crash clusters 4) Players are asked to stop copying, ignored. CCP's fault, sure. And since we're toying with the idea of a "warp to 0km" idea, why not just let us instantly jump from Jita to Rens. Same thing. Having to actually move in Eve was a buggy idea from the beginning. Infact, wheres my "Easy" button? If you realize how insane that idea is, maybe you think removing bookmarks within 150km is a better idea. Think Jita is bad now? Just wait until freighter pilots realize they can't go from Jita to say, Gallente space without having to do the actual travel. Going from Kaunokka to Jita in my badger II is an annoyance, think how they would have it (then again, i've always felt transporting things should never be a speed-critical concept when you're dealing with such huge amounts). I think the only reasonable answer to this is to stop letting bookmarks be traded, sold, escrowed... have any characteristics that makes them capable of being transfered to another player. A less drastic idea might be get rid of escrowing bookmarks. Limiting it to player/player trades or letting your corp use them by allowing them to be put in hangars would at least help the problem. Also, are there any devs that could take a stab at that "ban all bookmark copying until the patch" suggestion? What would actually be involved in doing such a drastic thing? More precisely, how LONG would it take to impliment such a suggestion (and would it require server restarts?). I've always wondered what would happen if CCP... jacked the price up of membership? Would say, $5USD/month per membership allow more people to come in (employees) and allow more hardware and more bandwith? I personally would pay it...
MrShooter Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:38:00 - [122] Find the players that are copying non-stop untill tuesday and delete all bookmarks they have, in people and places and in any items hangers.
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:38:00 - [123] Originally by: Valar We have lost 4 nodes tonight. It seems that extreme bookmark copying is causing nodes to time out and the cluster thus consitering them dead. Over 900.000 bookmarks have been copied since downtime. We are keeping a close eye on the situtation. Theres a freaking shock... who would have expected every person in the game to make a mad rush copying bookmarks since that ability is getting severly nerfed in the next patch. Really, what did you expect? How about taking the time to implement a real fix instead of some asinine band-aid hack which won't do a thing to address the real issue? signature removed - please email us if you want to find out why (include the URL to it) - Jacques([email protected])
Audrea Widowmakers Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:38:00 - [124] Edited by: Audrea on 03/09/2006 22:38:30 Originally by: Gorr Hajus I am on the 7 day trial. I was hoping to find a good game to go to after being bored by other games. I seriously doubt it now. I am in Jita and had no idea it was a bad zone. Plus I had no choice to go there because I had a storyline mission that was "very important". I missed the bonus and will probably fail the mission. I was disconnected 3 times and read 4 chapters in a novel waiting for it while the screen that says Entering the game was up for about an hour. Plus I can't play another character because 1. he cannot train because my 1st character is training, 2. he can't finish the tutorial because I am not allowed past the part teaching you about training because I can't train (I can always cancel out of the tutorial - but I miss a lot. I'd still do it if not for #3 ->>>), and 3. my 2nd character is crashing as much as my 1st character. Dont worry about the in game tutorial. it doesnt even teach you 1/10000 of the game.. just do trial and errors ;) If you still cant find how to do something, try right click in space, it will give you all options usually. If that doesnt help, use the noobie help chan. ------------------ Tired of fleet combat lag? -Post HERE All posts are my personal opinions.
Hamatitio Caldari ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:39:00 - [125] If everyone gets warp to 0 range... They need to fix interdictor bubbles. How long would it take to fix them? Honestly... --- I'm going through sigs fast these days.
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:41:00 - [126] first point is CCP have no forsite in this they are dam foolish for anouncing this pre patch, this is were stelth changes are usefull DOH. secondly puching patch back so alowing players to actually ready the notes and for corp/aliance's to spread the word. thirdly for not expecting this. gate to gate travel is needed end off, no way around that so they have to pick a new solution now really and get it coded and working fast (like for KAIL) weather thats a skill to get to 0Km warp point or just a blanket ability to do so. or a way to move BM's on to the players clinat and off the server im not sure but it need fixing and selecting a way now or it will only get a larger problem. ------------------------------------ Dragon the patch to optimise EVE. Welcome to Tranquillity the optimised snail Please wait 4 minuets to jump war targets are 2 seconds away.
Feline Ferocity Caldari The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:43:00 - [127] Originally by: MrShooter Find the players that are copying non-stop untill tuesday and delete all bookmarks they have, in people and places and in any items hangers. Though there is a way around that, the people doing it could easily jusy buy them again and re-copy them, adding twice or even 3 times much more lag. Whats 10-15m to them when they can just make that back and more each time? I'm just rambling because the servers are laggy and i can't do much else ------- We need a YEAR without ANY 'new content'. Nothing but BUG FIXES. New content that does not work is WORTHLESS.
Veto1024	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:44:00 - [128] Originally by: Azerrad Theres a freaking shock... who would have expected every person in the game to make a mad rush copying bookmarks since that ability is getting severly nerfed in the next patch. Really, what did you expect? How about taking the time to implement a real fix instead of some asinine band-aid hack which won't do a thing to address the real issue? I think they expected the majority of Eve players to have enough neurons firing in their brains to be able to tell that their actions are causing the problems. I mean really, the player base is kinda dumb and CCP thinks too much of them. Remember when they said they were having problems with BPO's showing up as BPC's and visa versa? What did you find on escrow right after they announced that they would BAN people found exploiting that? BPC's being sold as BPO's without the usual scamming tricks you normally see.
Malkavian Spirit Minmatar Instant Travel Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:48:00 - [129] Originally by: Veto1024 Originally by: Azerrad Theres a freaking shock... who would have expected every person in the game to make a mad rush copying bookmarks since that ability is getting severly nerfed in the next patch. Really, what did you expect? How about taking the time to implement a real fix instead of some asinine band-aid hack which won't do a thing to address the real issue? I think they expected the majority of Eve players to have enough neurons firing in their brains to be able to tell that their actions are causing the problems. I mean really, the player base is kinda dumb and CCP thinks too much of them. Remember when they said they were having problems with BPO's showing up as BPC's and visa versa? What did you find on escrow right after they announced that they would BAN people found exploiting that? BPC's being sold as BPO's without the usual scamming tricks you normally see. hey m8 you are a part of that player base remember that. What was ccp expecting? for people not to copy all the instas they can before the patch? cmon......
Eriv Kendri Caldari Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:50:00 - [130] Heh, no better way to demonstrate the negative impact of instas on the server than this - dons his tinfoil hat

Veto1024	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:54:00 - [131] Edited by: Veto1024 on 03/09/2006 22:54:33 Originally by: Malkavian Spirit hey m8 you are a part of that player base remember that. What was ccp expecting? for people not to copy all the instas they can before the patch? cmon...... Ok, everyone but me is dumb. You know what i mean , the people who would take any warning as an opportunity to screw people over. I honestly think they figured the players would listen. We all play this game... but the GM's just code for it. We know what the people are like, how fast exploits are taken advantage of, etc etc. They don't have the luxury of being able to play and look at the forums all the time and really get to know the people who play like we do. When they had a glitch where concord wasn't working, i stayed docked because i had a bad feeling about what was waiting outside that station. I really would like to know how many empire kills there were compared to normal when they had that announcement even though they said they would ban people who exploited it.
Harris	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:54:00 - [132] BMs per se are not the problem. Saying Ban them outright is non-sensical and ill thought through. They are needed for more than instas, such as safespots, loot cans, ammo cans, scouting points, warp in points for fights... the list goes on. If they were removed wholesale from the game then we might as well just have a brief flash when we warp and the next screen loads as we move from one fixed celestial object to another with no space inbetween. For sure the game would be less laggy but at what cost. If BMs were to be removed from anywhere other than around gates then peoples ships and cans left in space would have to be given back to them before hand, if that's doable then great, go ahead and delete the things. If not then they need to stay. A purge of BMs is a good idea and in my opinion making new ones uncopyable isn't such a bad thing in the long run. It would screw me over as much as the next guy as I use them between two characters when/if they work together, but it would reward a gang that's done it's homework in enemy territory with a scout/gang leader who'd be able to lead his gang rather than just rely on the ability to source a good set of BMs. I don't think that 'warp to Okm' is the solution to instas, rather a method of warping to gates more accurately - be it module or skill based or perhaps just a reduction in the warp to distance. Maybe even a gang based skill that allows a gang leader to make more accurate warps if he's skilled up...? Whatever happens we all agree the system needs to change. Knee jerk panicking and vitriol aimed at the GMs and CCP because of tonights problems isn't going to help though, lessons will be learnt and things will improve. How about everybody be cool. Take a deeeeeeeeeep breath
Harris	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:00:00 - [133] Originally by: Feline Ferocity .... Anyway, you can make safespots without bookmarks, just waste half your cap with a MWD then warp somewhere, you wouldn't need to worry about people finding your safe and waiting there until you go there again, chances are you wouldn't land in the same place (unless your lucky/unlucky, depending on the situation) Plus they aren't going to get rid of probes, so if you had a safespot with cans there you can just probe them. I do still think CCP should get rid of BMs end full stop, and make a warp to 0km option thingy. (that actually works) Meh Edit: spelling You can't use probes to scan for cans so that answer doesn't work Not everyone fits MWD, some ships are actually set up to not run out of cap so making ss would be a freaking nightmare trying to use your system. BMs are used for scouting as well as safespotting, be it of belts, gates or stations. Think your ideas through before presenting them, BMs have to stay. How they are used/copied/stored has to change.
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:01:00 - [134] Originally by: Veto1024 Originally by: Miss Overlord OK HERE IT IS AGAIN CCP PUT AN IMMEDAIATE BAN ON BM COPYING UNTIL TOMORROWS PATCH AFTER THAT PPL WILL BE LIMITED TO BATCHES OF 5 AT A TIME AND NO MORE This will solve the last minute rush sure it might upset some idiots but hey will make the game playable for 90% of the player base so get to it Again, does anyone know if its even possible to ban the copying without big code changes or server reboots etc etc? from what ive red its just a matter of a server downtime a little click box disabling bookmark copying for the next 36 hours and then tomorrows patch will resolve it to 5 at a time - simple and logical hence its being ignored
Veto1024	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:03:00 - [135] Does anyone else think the idea of bookmarks being an actual item kind of seem weird? When i first realized you could copy a bookmark and it would be an actual thing in your hangar if you wanted... i thought someone took one too many drinks 3 years ago in Beta and no one ever noticed.... Isn't it kinda like putting your portrait into the hangar? Or money (which would actually be more realistic)? Seems out of place in Eve....
Feline Ferocity Caldari The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:03:00 - [136] Originally by: Miss Overlord OK HERE IT IS AGAIN CCP PUT AN IMMEDAIATE BAN ON BM COPYING UNTIL TOMORROWS PATCH AFTER THAT PPL WILL BE LIMITED TO BATCHES OF 5 AT A TIME AND NO MORE Lol, ok i think you made your point... (about 3/4 times now, i lost count) Calm blue ocean.... Calm blue ocean, deep breaths in through the nose, out through the mouth come on i know you can do it ------- We need a YEAR without ANY 'new content'. Nothing but BUG FIXES. New content that does not work is WORTHLESS.
Veto1024	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:04:00 - [137] Originally by: Miss Overlord from what ive red its just a matter of a server downtime a little click box disabling bookmark copying for the next 36 hours and then tomorrows patch will resolve it to 5 at a time - simple and logical hence its being ignored Hmm I would be surprised if there was a little "click box"... did a dev tell you this?
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:04:00 - [138] Originally by: Feline Ferocity Originally by: Miss Overlord OK HERE IT IS AGAIN CCP PUT AN IMMEDAIATE BAN ON BM COPYING UNTIL TOMORROWS PATCH AFTER THAT PPL WILL BE LIMITED TO BATCHES OF 5 AT A TIME AND NO MORE Lol, ok i think you made your point... (about 3/4 times now, i lost count) Calm blue ocean.... Calm blue ocean, deep breaths in through the nose, out through the mouth come on i know you can do it [light blue] calm blue ocean calm blue ocean [/light blue]
Anomaly21 Caldari Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:04:00 - [139] Originally by: Anomaly21 Ok AFAIK the reason the BM limitation is being put into place is people exploiting game mechanics and copying BM's into shuttles and leaving them in POS's to lag out attackers and such. It has nothing to do with instas. So to fix this and not having to deal with the big problem of finding a decent replacement why can't you just make it so that BMs can only be copied while docked in stations into the items window and cannot be placed into any ships hangar or containers or anything of the like? This would fix the problem of people using BMs to exploit game mechanics and it wouldn't cause an extreme uproar from the majority of the game community not having instas or being able to copy them. The current idea to fix the situation is just going to cause an uproar with the majority of the community and isn't going to stop the minority that is causing the problem. Even though you'll only be able to copy 5 at a time people will still sit there and copy exploiting away. All that means is they have to make more clicks now. This is not my idea. I saw it posted and no one responded to it. So I am reposting this and will hopefuly get a response to why this can't be done .. and please correct me if I'm wrong. ^^ COUGH COUGH Seriously .... helloooo? ^^ You're friendly neighborhood ECM Queen :o
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:05:00 - [140] Originally by: Veto1024 Does anyone else think the idea of bookmarks being an actual item kind of seem weird? When i first realized you could copy a bookmark and it would be an actual thing in your hangar if you wanted... i thought someone took one too many drinks 3 years ago in Beta and no one ever noticed.... Isn't it kinda like putting your portrait into the hangar? Or money (which would actually be more realistic)? Seems out of place in Eve.... its an anolmoly from the early days these things take a life of thier own

Veto1024	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:06:00 - [141] Originally by: Anomaly21 ^^ COUGH COUGH Seriously .... helloooo? ^^ Sorry anomaly21, it shows how much people actually care about POS's. When (or if) they are causing even a game-wide problem, they're still ignored .
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:07:00 - [142] CCP now it is the time to nuke the BMS and bring the solution ,the solution i propose?NO MORE FU*** BM want to warp?Warp to 15Km all . Only the stronger will survive but who cares we whould be 5K users again all blasting our own heads off . PLEASE CCP DON¦T GO THE EASY WAY TO implement the option to 0Km to gates.
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:07:00 - [143] Originally by: Veto1024 Originally by: Anomaly21 ^^ COUGH COUGH Seriously .... helloooo? ^^ Sorry anomaly21, it shows how much people actually care about POS's. When (or if) they are causing even a game-wide problem, they're still ignored . define POS problems sure its game wide but is it really that much of a problem

Serathu Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:08:00 - [144] Folks, whilst we can appreciate that many of you are frustrated at the issues occurring, especially those this evening, we ask that you please try and remain on-topic, polite and constructive when posting. Repeat posting the same information and/or using excessive colour, capitals, bold etc will not help resolve the issue and it is unwelcome. I'm politely asking now that you refrain. Thank you! \| Forum Rules \| CAOD Rules \| CRC Website \| [email protected] \|

Anomaly21 Caldari Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:14:00 - [145] Originally by: Miss Overlord Originally by: Veto1024 Originally by: Anomaly21 ^^ COUGH COUGH Seriously .... helloooo? ^^ Sorry anomaly21, it shows how much people actually care about POS's. When (or if) they are causing even a game-wide problem, they're still ignored . define POS problems sure its game wide but is it really that much of a problem uhhh... you do realise that's why this whole deal with limiting bms is being applied right? even though it's not going to work but that's not the point. You're friendly neighborhood ECM Queen :o
Nerf Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:19:00 - [146] Is anyone else getting flashbacks to pre-yarrdware Jita/Oursalert? Signature removed as the image is unsuitable. If you have any questions, please mail us on [email protected] and include a link to the image in question. -Ivan K
Feline Ferocity Caldari The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:19:00 - [147] Originally by: Harris Originally by: Feline Ferocity .... Anyway, you can make safespots without bookmarks, just waste half your cap with a MWD then warp somewhere, you wouldn't need to worry about people finding your safe and waiting there until you go there again, chances are you wouldn't land in the same place (unless your lucky/unlucky, depending on the situation) Plus they aren't going to get rid of probes, so if you had a safespot with cans there you can just probe them. I do still think CCP should get rid of BMs end full stop, and make a warp to 0km option thingy. (that actually works) Meh Edit: spelling You can't use probes to scan for cans so that answer doesn't work Not everyone fits MWD, Think your ideas through before presenting them, BMs have to stay. How they are used/copied/stored has to change. Well that could be another idea for CCP to work on after they have sorted all the other issues out, scan probes that scan for certain cans or add the feature to the scan probes that already exist. and as for thinking my ideas through before presenting them, i stated in another post that i was rambling because i couldn't do much else atm. So up your butt with a coconut ... Come on guys lighten up a little, i'm sure CCP are trying to sort it out along with tonnes of other sheite geez give them a break. hides in the corner ------- We need a YEAR without ANY 'new content'. Nothing but BUG FIXES. New content that does not work is WORTHLESS.
Eleis Machuron	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:24:00 - [148] Edited by: Eleis Machuron on 03/09/2006 23:24:16 Once again, Eve proves itself as the most realistic economic simulator in MMOdom: Tragedy of the Commons
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:32:00 - [149] Originally by: Eleis Machuron Edited by: Eleis Machuron on 03/09/2006 23:24:16 Once again, Eve proves itself as the most realistic economic simulator in MMOdom: Tragedy of the Commons [cyan] all these losses are in fact boosting sales volumes for ships etc so good for industrialists [/cyan]
Tas Devil JUDGE DREAD Inc. Forces of Freedom	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:33:00 - [150] Edited by: Tas Devil on 03/09/2006 23:34:21 Seems BIG brother didn't like my post ... moderators I'd mail you to ask why?, at the mail you so kindly suggest I write to, everytime you moderate one of my posts...but we all know you never bother to respond... Clearly you have no sense of humour what so ever ... so I'll just mail it to Oveur directly... if anything he has prooven many times that he has a sense of humour... unlike others... The best Laugh ever ... Credit goes to Killer8 for this ! Oh and apparently the mods tell me there is ba

ironfaux	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:51:00 - [151] to help out all of your fellow players ccp would like you to keep sending in your monthly fee for "play rights" but stop playing. You may still glance at the forum now and then as long as you never try to look at it over 3 times a week,thanks for your support and money!
syphurous	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:57:00 - [152] I beleieve you should only be recording XYZ and the system your in. Thats 4 varibles, which could be contained in a simple string. How about moving the Bookmarking to it's own panel out of people and places to a chat like dialoque space for trading your BM's. Make it only possible in stations. Give bookmarking it's own server. A required skill to enable along with a total of bookmarks you can store. Skill lvl1 = 25BM lvl2 = 50BM lvl3 = 100BM lvl4 = 200BM Lvl5 = 500BM Alternatively a navigation skill that allows more accurate jumps to fixed objects ( gates and stations ).
Hale Haleson Blueprint Haus	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:02:00 - [153] How about this, I'll stop copying bookmarks when someone answers my frigging petition from 7/22.
Skaxx Minmatar Zig-Zag	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:14:00 - [154] This whole bookmark thing is wonderfull. I was chilling out in a quiet system running a mission when everything froze. Then I got to watch half a billion isk pop before my eyes. As I was sitting their in my pod in comes the nice public service message about the bookmark problem. CCP needs to just remove all damn bookmarks and wipe the slate clean. Change the bookmark to character only and do not allow them to be traded or copied...
Sky Marshal	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:20:00 - [155] Originally by: Pesadel0 CCP now it is the time to nuke the BMS and bring the solution ,the solution i propose?NO MORE FU*** BM want to warp?Warp to 15Km all . Only the stronger will survive but who cares we whould be 5K users again all blasting our own heads off . Probably less than 5K users, I don't think that CCP need a bankruptcy caused by a big exodus of players ^^ Hum... SS -4,4. Why is it only raCOUGH pirates sorry, who want absolutely delete BM ? This is a mystery... CCP want nerf BM copying, many players want them at all costs, this situation is normal and try to block this reveal that you are or an egoist (You have all BMs, so you don't care of others players, you want play) or a pirate. CCP will find a solution, it is certain, but when ? In days ? In weeks ? In months ? We don't have any ETA and any idea that what solution will be applied. Also, CCP can't give a solution fastly, because some players will protest since they paid at an exaggerated price (~70M or more) some BMs. A period of damping is required to avoid any complaints.
Gretchen Dawntreader Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:30:00 - [156] bookmark should not be something able to lag the server anyhow. Unless they hired some idiot to design them, all a bookmark consists of is a set of 3 decimal numbers, system identifier and a text string. EVE has got to be handling millions of times that every second for every physical object in every system in eve and its position, icon, model, velocity, stats, shield/armor/hull levels, flags, states, player skills, physics model, transversal velocity to be displayed on every player's overview who is in range... OMG the immensity of the data handled by this game every time you warp to a station with a dozen players, 6 turrets, 20 npc ships and etc should absolutely DWARF the 5 pieces of data needed for a bookmark. X. Y. Z. systemid. $string. That's all it should take. Do I know? Am I guessing? of course I am. But think about it. How much freaking data should it take to store and label a static coordinate in space.... NOT MUCH.
Xendie Hunter Killers	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:49:00 - [157] Originally by: Hale Haleson How about this, I'll stop copying bookmarks when someone answers my frigging petition from 7/22. haha, cant say you arent right on that point. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
SyIpha	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:49:00 - [158] You know...I wonder if ccp is even reading the ideas here. I doubt it! And I feel that way because if you scour the forums...you will find that these ideas have been posted in the past few years over and over and over again. CCP can get this done right if they would listen. Sometimes, others have beeter ideas than you ccp...I know thats hard to swallow since you guys make the money and we don't. But get this right for once and for all, plz. Forget the 5 bm limit crap. Thats like putting duck tape on an open wound. Do something constructive with our money. I think a skill in place would be worth it...but who cares..just do something worth while please for the love of God and all that is good/bad in the world!
Edoard Titche	Posted - 2006.09.04 01:09:00 - [159] Originally by: Serathu Folks, whilst we can appreciate that many of you are frustrated at the issues occurring, especially those this evening, we ask that you please try and remain on-topic, polite and constructive when posting. Repeat posting the same information and/or using excessive colour, capitals, bold etc will not help resolve the issue and it is unwelcome. I'm politely asking now that you refrain. Thank you! Well maybe if you guys actually tried answering some of our concerns instead of lurking and occasionally copy and pasting the same old generic statements ppl wouldnt get so frustrated...
SyIpha	Posted - 2006.09.04 01:41:00 - [160] Originally by: Edoard Titche Originally by: Serathu Folks, whilst we can appreciate that many of you are frustrated at the issues occurring, especially those this evening, we ask that you please try and remain on-topic, polite and constructive when posting. Repeat posting the same information and/or using excessive colour, capitals, bold etc will not help resolve the issue and it is unwelcome. I'm politely asking now that you refrain. Thank you! Well maybe if you guys actually tried answering some of our concerns instead of lurking and occasionally copy and pasting the same old generic statements ppl wouldnt get so frustrated... QFT!!!

Idara Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 01:45:00 - [161] Edited by: Idara on 04/09/2006 01:45:08 Well, time to start copying my 10000 BM's for an alt for the nerf Tuesday! ---
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:05:00 - [162] Originally by: Sky Marshal Originally by: Pesadel0 CCP now it is the time to nuke the BMS and bring the solution ,the solution i propose?NO MORE FU*** BM want to warp?Warp to 15Km all . Only the stronger will survive but who cares we whould be 5K users again all blasting our own heads off . Probably less than 5K users, I don't think that CCP need a bankruptcy caused by a big exodus of players ^^ Hum... SS -4,4. Why is it only raCOUGH pirates sorry, who want absolutely delete BM ? This is a mystery... CCP want nerf BM copying, many players want them at all costs, this situation is normal and try to block this reveal that you are or an egoist (You have all BMs, so you don't care of others players, you want play) or a pirate. CCP will find a solution, it is certain, but when ? In days ? In weeks ? In months ? We don't have any ETA and any idea that what solution will be applied. Also, CCP can't give a solution fastly, because some players will protest since they paid at an exaggerated price (~70M or more) some BMs. A period of damping is required to avoid any complaints. Yes i'am a pirate and almost red ,did you ever become a pirate ?Without BM i become as vulnerable or more than some carebear cruising to the gate at 1000/ms.What you dont seem to grasp is that you shouldnt live true a gatecamp in low sec just because you had your hauler filled with nanos,you should have been killed. Maybe people actually could actually come in gangs trying to kill the pirate ?Or trying to pass without to much trouble? Maybe i see the BM like a ****** disease that spread since exodus ,when the DEVS had the chance to kill it they didnt . Now all the boys and girls think that BM are part of the gameplay and want 0Km travel i also saw someone saying hey make it work on autopilot If players played a large amount of issk that is there problem ,i speak against myself here i have the BM of all empire regions including some 0.0,and i would be the first to delete all of them.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:36:00 - [163] Originally by: SyIpha Originally by: Edoard Titche Originally by: Serathu Folks, whilst we can appreciate that many of you are frustrated at the issues occurring, especially those this evening, we ask that you please try and remain on-topic, polite and constructive when posting. Repeat posting the same information and/or using excessive colour, capitals, bold etc will not help resolve the issue and it is unwelcome. I'm politely asking now that you refrain. Thank you! Well maybe if you guys actually tried answering some of our concerns instead of lurking and occasionally copy and pasting the same old generic statements ppl wouldnt get so frustrated... QFT!!! Yeah cause forum moderators are really in the position to talk about such a complex core game mechanic.
zykerx Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:48:00 - [164] Originally by: Gretchen Dawntreader bookmark should not be something able to lag the server anyhow. Unless they hired some idiot to design them, all a bookmark consists of is a set of 3 decimal numbers, system identifier and a text string. EVE has got to be handling millions of times that every second for every physical object in every system in eve and its position, icon, model, velocity, stats, shield/armor/hull levels, flags, states, player skills, physics model, transversal velocity to be displayed on every player's overview who is in range... OMG the immensity of the data handled by this game every time you warp to a station with a dozen players, 6 turrets, 20 npc ships and etc should absolutely DWARF the 5 pieces of data needed for a bookmark. X. Y. Z. systemid. $string. That's all it should take. Do I know? Am I guessing? of course I am. But think about it. How much freaking data should it take to store and label a static coordinate in space.... NOT MUCH. Good1
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:06:00 - [165] Originally by: Gretchen Dawntreader bookmark should not be something able to lag the server anyhow. Unless they hired some idiot to design them, all a bookmark consists of is a set of 3 decimal numbers, system identifier and a text string. EVE has got to be handling millions of times that every second for every physical object in every system in eve and its position, icon, model, velocity, stats, shield/armor/hull levels, flags, states, player skills, physics model, transversal velocity to be displayed on every player's overview who is in range... OMG the immensity of the data handled by this game every time you warp to a station with a dozen players, 6 turrets, 20 npc ships and etc should absolutely DWARF the 5 pieces of data needed for a bookmark. X. Y. Z. systemid. $string. That's all it should take. Do I know? Am I guessing? of course I am. But think about it. How much freaking data should it take to store and label a static coordinate in space.... NOT MUCH. Is it a problem of data transfer or of finding the data in the DB in the first place? I can understand the data amount is pretty damn small. But finding the data takes just as long whether its 1kb or 1MB, doesn't it? (Not a DB expert here), but I would imagine that 1000 queries for 1kb worth of data is a hell of a lot worse on a DB than 1 query for an 1mb data item.
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:06:00 - [166] rens looking shakey
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:10:00 - [167] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Gretchen Dawntreader bookmark should not be something able to lag the server anyhow. Unless they hired some idiot to design them, all a bookmark consists of is a set of 3 decimal numbers, system identifier and a text string. EVE has got to be handling millions of times that every second for every physical object in every system in eve and its position, icon, model, velocity, stats, shield/armor/hull levels, flags, states, player skills, physics model, transversal velocity to be displayed on every player's overview who is in range... OMG the immensity of the data handled by this game every time you warp to a station with a dozen players, 6 turrets, 20 npc ships and etc should absolutely DWARF the 5 pieces of data needed for a bookmark. X. Y. Z. systemid. $string. That's all it should take. Do I know? Am I guessing? of course I am. But think about it. How much freaking data should it take to store and label a static coordinate in space.... NOT MUCH. Is it a problem of data transfer or of finding the data in the DB in the first place? I can understand the data amount is pretty damn small. But finding the data takes just as long whether its 1kb or 1MB, doesn't it? (Not a DB expert here), but I would imagine that 1000 queries for 1kb worth of data is a hell of a lot worse on a DB than 1 query for an 1mb data item. Correct, it isn't the size of the data, it's the amount of data involved. Don't think it is dawning on people exactly how much 14% of the eve db is.
Gretchen Dawntreader Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:24:00 - [168] Edited by: Gretchen Dawntreader on 04/09/2006 11:28:58 I would also note for those of you for whom the Sky is Falling and are running around with your hands in the air saying: "See? SEE?? Bookmarks are the root of all evilz0r, look nodes are dropping, delete all bookmarks now!!1!" ....take a deep breath and think about something. The lag and node drops tonight are caused by mass copying. Not by bookmarks themselves. In normal non-nerf-scrambling playtime, there aren't thousands of players copying thousands of bookmarks every minute. During normal playtime, they sit in someone's P&P, static and unmoving, not replicating, and any given person is only activating them one at a time maybe every 90 seconds or so. Even people with lots of bookmarks aren't using them 100% of their gametime. You travel, but when you are done travelling you generally are doing something for an hour or two. People aren't playing their bookmarks like an organ, sending wave after wave of data queries to the server. Current Lag and node drops caused by massive item copying/creation. Not by the existance of the item. Think people. EDIT: Note that in the pop up message last night about the node drops, the GM asked people to stop copying to cure the lag. They didn't attribute lag and node drops to bookmarks, but rather to copying on a grand scale. And of course, we already know why people are doing the copying, why they are unlikely to stop, and why a fix is needed. Yes it would be very enheartening to know if Dev is actually checking people's ideas in this thread, we already know the Mods are out in force to make sure no one is being mean...but this is less of a forum etiquette issue and is much more important of a player feedback issue. So far, we have no indication that Dev has any idea what the players are posting about this issue, or that they want to know or care to know. Unlurk, Dev!
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:44:00 - [169] Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 04/09/2006 11:44:48 It's still people copying BMs I take it? Actually the whole "limiting to 5 BMs" thing probably should have been a silent nerf. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Ilmonstre Minmatar 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:47:00 - [170] Originally by: FireFoxx80 Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 04/09/2006 11:44:48 It's still people copying BMs I take it? Actually the whole "limiting to 5 BMs" thing probably should have been a silent nerf. it dont really matter people will talk about it just as long and now well we just had a lagged out server with crashing nodes all over the place.

Maliber Art of War	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:47:00 - [171] Edited by: Maliber on 04/09/2006 11:48:33 I think the problem has already been explained by several devs around this forum. And as it was previously put in a devblog. Forums are not the best way to communicate. If you want awnsers search for some dev posts. i think the warp to 0 km option has already been tried in the past. It didnt work out because there where some nasty nasty nasty bugs and other game mechanic issue's (anyone with a capital ship and a wrong instadock bm can tell you all about it). banning bookmarks all togheter will create some troubles as wel as it will compicate matters(no more savespots/ snipe spots etc). It would prob be a better solution if bm's near gates were not allowd. But this will make some ppl very unhappy. Maliber
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:52:00 - [172] Originally by: Gretchen Dawntreader bookmark should not be something able to lag the server anyhow. Unless they hired some idiot to design them, all a bookmark consists of is a set of 3 decimal numbers, system identifier and a text string. EVE has got to be handling millions of times that every second for every physical object in every system in eve and its position, icon, model, velocity, stats, shield/armor/hull levels, flags, states, player skills, physics model, transversal velocity to be displayed on every player's overview who is in range... OMG the immensity of the data handled by this game every time you warp to a station with a dozen players, 6 turrets, 20 npc ships and etc should absolutely DWARF the 5 pieces of data needed for a bookmark. X. Y. Z. systemid. $string. That's all it should take. Do I know? Am I guessing? of course I am. But think about it. How much freaking data should it take to store and label a static coordinate in space.... NOT MUCH. From what I gather, there are probably two elements to BM's in the database: The BM table, and the Item table. BM's in your People&Places probably aren't a huge problem, as they'd only appear in the BM table. It's BM's as Items that are likely to generate the problem, because they will have linked entries in the BM and Item tables. Copying BM's requires the creation of BM's as Items, hence requires the creation of lots of new linked table entries. That's where I suspect it starts to get ugly. That's also why a hangar full of BM's takes much longer to load than a hangar full of normal items. When a normal item loads, it would load the TypeID, and the game can fill in the item name based on the locally cached info on that TypeID. When it loads the BM, it has to refer to the BM table to extract the $string description of the BM. Otherwise, every BM in your hangar would just be called "Bookmark". Incidentally, this is the same sort of thing that means that differentiating between BPC's and BPO's in the hanger is not feasible (it would be a reference to the BP table for the "IsCopy" property in that case). I suspect constant hangar refreshes during the copy process also causes a significant amount of load. The other consideration is, yes, a BM is only a small amount of data. But people are rarely using just one. If they were, there wouldn't be a problem. The problem comes because BM's are being thrown around on the scale of thousands per player. Just look at valar's post. Assuming round numbers of 900k between 1200 and 2000 hours, gives you 112500 BM's copied per hour, 1875 per minute, 31 per second. And that's an average. If that was spread evenly over the whole cluster and over time, then it may have coped. But you're going to get peaks in time and location. Location especially is likely to concentrate around hub systems like Jita, which are already under significant load. Of course, that is just as much speculation as your comments. What we know for certain is that copying BM's does cause an issue. Could that issue be solved by better coding? Probably, to some extent. But I'm personally doubtful it could be made scalable to the extent required. You also have to ask if it's sensible to engage in such a rewrite of the BM code, when you're planning on changing the whole nature of BM's anyway. To those saying "Don't tell me not to copy, fix your servers": Do you honestly expect them to be able to put out a solution immediately? Just click their fingers and new nodes appear, new code comes online? Yes, a more long-term solution is required, but you can't whistle up long-term solutions overnight. If your boat springs a leak, sure you'll want to ask questions of the construction and maintenance of the boat. But that won't change the reality of that moment - you either start bailing, or you sink. The boat isn't going to listen to you saying "Don't tell me to bail, stop leaking". ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:54:00 - [173] Originally by: syphurous I beleieve you should only be recording XYZ and the system your in. Thats 4 varibles, which could be contained in a simple string. There is nothing 'simple' about a string. Generating the textual representaton of a number takes time. Obtaining the numeric value of a string takes even longer. Storing strings is a PITA because they are variable length. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:57:00 - [174] Originally by: Malachon Draco Is it a problem of data transfer or of finding the data in the DB in the first place? I can understand the data amount is pretty damn small. But finding the data takes just as long whether its 1kb or 1MB, doesn't it? (Not a DB expert here), but I would imagine that 1000 queries for 1kb worth of data is a hell of a lot worse on a DB than 1 query for an 1mb data item. Yes. A golden rule of database work (except perhaps for local databases where the database engine is integral to the application) is to minimise the number of queries being made. It's often called batch processing. Size is a factor but most of the time the overhead in transmitting and responding to a query exceeds the 'cost' of the actual data transfer. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Patch Esquire	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:01:00 - [175] I've said my little piece in enough Instagate threads that I might aswell type it out again. I'm not a pirate. Never pirated. Never shot at a guy without a good reason to. BUT, I am against Instas; I'm against 0km jumps, and I'm against instas that let it happen. The 15km jump isnt in there because of a technical limitation, or a negligent dev, or whatever- its in there because iots an intended game mechanic. That is, some ships are meant to be faster than others. That interceptor is meant to be able to clear systems in seconds, while that BS or Freighter is MEANT to take hours. Futher more, you are MEANT to be vulnerable while travelling- with the exeption of interdictions (which I'm sure no care bear would enjoy, and certainly wouldn't want to see more of) you are invulnerable the entirety of your journey, save the last 15km and a few seconds while alligning on the other side of a gate. If you want invulnerability from PvP, 1) stay in empire space, 2) don't leave the NPC corps, and 3) don't interact with any other players in any meaningful way, for fear of killrights. Alternatively, go play WoW........ So, if we discount "wishing to be invulnerable" as a valid reason for wanting insta-jumps, what does that leave us with? Travel speeds. I hear alot of people telling me "if I have to take longer to travel places, it'll kill EVE, and I'l quit!". So, a quick 101 on how to travel fast in EVE: 1) Ships can go very fast. Ships like Frigates are practically invulnerable from pvp (save warp bubbles) already, as they are very very fast. You want your BS to go fast? Fill every low slot with Nanofiber Internal Structures, and install an MWD. A Dominix can easily go over 1000m/s, which is extrodinary for a ship of that size. The downside- you can't fly while in your Uber L33T KillaShip setup, but why should you? If you kit out a car to go really fast, you don't expect good miles per gallon aswell. 2) Jump clones. As long as you don't need to take anything with you, you can travel bewtween any 2 medibays completely instantly. Jump clones make Instajumps look slow. 3) So you need to get a ship somewhere really fast? Get a carrier. Or, to be more exact, get a friend with a carrier. Every respectable alliance in game has multiple carriers, and they can jump 10's of jumps in one go. As you need a cyno scout to get you there, ultimately this means that you can get there as fast as your fastest scout. Carriers are capable of carrying small fleets in their bellies, so you can easily move huge cagos. Yes, though, this will mean going and making some friends, but this is an MMO, afterall (massively MULTIPLAYER game). Yes they all have draw backs, and will need money, effort, or some sort of thinking to work. But who says you're allowed instant travel for free, anyway? Certainly no Dev Blog I've ever read. Finally, the gate camp. Alot of people here are pro-insta as they think gate camps are dishounorable and should be killed off. Now, as already mentioned, I'm no pirate and don't gate camp innocent passers by. However, when is the gate camp a legitimate tactic? Our alliance is at war. Our alliance mines in 0.0, and our enemy mines in 0.0 too. Both of us like to go disrupt each others mining, in an attempt to win the war. If we want to mine in peace, what do we do? We camp the gate going in to a mining system. If enemies try and get in, they must fight through our defenses to get to our miners. Insta-jumps mean that camping gates is significantly more difficult, meaning we can't mine. If we want t attack an enemy's mining op, we camp the exit gate while gangs go to fight them- any one trying to esccape must get through a gate camp. If there were automatic insta jumps, attacking miners would be far more difficult too. The bottom line- with insta jumps, without a warp bubble interaction between combat and miners is very low. Miners can get away from attacks easily, combat's arnt needed to protect them or attack the enemy. Sounds fun to me.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:48:00 - [176] Originally by: Gretchen Dawntreader bookmark should not be something able to lag the server anyhow. Unless they hired some idiot to design them, all a bookmark consists of is a set of 3 decimal numbers, system identifier and a text string. EVE has got to be handling millions of times that every second for every physical object in every system in eve and its position, icon, model, velocity, stats, shield/armor/hull levels, flags, states, player skills, physics model, transversal velocity to be displayed on every player's overview who is in range... OMG the immensity of the data handled by this game every time you warp to a station with a dozen players, 6 turrets, 20 npc ships and etc should absolutely DWARF the 5 pieces of data needed for a bookmark. X. Y. Z. systemid. $string. That's all it should take. Do I know? Am I guessing? of course I am. But think about it. How much freaking data should it take to store and label a static coordinate in space.... NOT MUCH. Bookmarks account for something like 14% of the total Eve Database. Even if they are stored how you descibe, that's still a stupid amount of data, and an incredible amount of records. All that database spooling, index lookups, etc, are whats causing the delay. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Idara Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 18:45:00 - [177] If it truly does take up as much space and time as some people believe, then BMs/Instas would be the first thing at the top of CCP's list to reduce lag. Make 0km warp in, or make it 5km with skills to bring it to 0km, remove all BMs in grids with gates/stations and there we go, no more "class" related posts about how the vets have all the instas and nubs have nothing to let them compete. Everyone uses BMs whenever they can, so there would be no difference in introducing 0km warp in. ---


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