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Gang mechanics and ganking ppl (New tactic impossible to evade)

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Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:35:00 - [31] Originally by: Peri Helion Exploit? Well, if CCP defines Exploit and they say this isn't, then it isn't. Good gaming? Well, kudos to Lofty for having figured this out. A game worth sticking around for? This tactic is valid and clever. If you dont't like it (or the sad fact that CCP says it is legal), then vote with your feet. For that matter, if you dont like the state of the game for any reason (lag, bugs, slow response times on petitions, crazy rules that obfuscate what one would normally consider common snese like a pop-up window telling you the asshat next to you in gang can shoot your ass), then leave. Personally, I wouldn't use this tactic (to dumb to figure it out, to laid back to execute it). I wouldn't sanction the behaviour in game either if I were the developers. BUT I aint. I have 8 accounts but stick around despite all the reasons above because there isnt't anything comparable out there. But if some other game company comes along with a persistent single shard world (sci-fi or fantasy) with a robust economy that has a better server architecutre (to address the lag) response times (to address bugs and petitions) and a more coherent rule set to address these kinds of issues (yeah, I like hard cruel reality, but I play games to get away from reality THAT hard and cruel ffs, so call it medium cruel reality), CCP will finally have a real horse race on their hands and that kind of competition may finally drive them to eleveate their game in new ways. Thank you for this nice post that has about 1% to do with this post. Read the first post again. For those that didnt get it: Noob invites victim Victim warps to noob Noob invites Ganker1 Noob invites Ganker2 and 3 which are at war with Ganker1 Ganker1, 2 and 3 can fire at victim Victim dies Ship lovers click here
Liegus	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:37:00 - [32] While it sounds like the OP's friend got ganked legally... I'm not sure I would have ever started Eve if I'd known it was a multiplayer game in which any cooperative interaction with another player (be it joining a gang or joining a corp) is an open invitation for said player to come on over and take all your stuff. Call me a carebear if you must, but I wonder whether the original intent of the game was to have a free-for-all area where you can just blow stuff up (0.0) and a second free-for-all area in which you can find a hole in game mechanics and then blow stuff up (0.1-1.0). Don't get me wrong... it doesn't seem unrealistic or game-breaking that everyone is free to go blow up everyone and take their stuff (in fact, that gives Eve some interesting spice that other games lack), but it makes one wonder what the original purpose of high-sec was. It's also a little sad that Eve is pretty much a single player game unless you're flying a disposable ship. (That part is getting better for me as I can gradually afford to lose better and better ships. =D )
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:46:00 - [33] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Peri Helion Exploit? Well, if CCP defines Exploit and they say this isn't, then it isn't. Good gaming? Well, kudos to Lofty for having figured this out. A game worth sticking around for? This tactic is valid and clever. If you dont't like it (or the sad fact that CCP says it is legal), then vote with your feet. For that matter, if you dont like the state of the game for any reason (lag, bugs, slow response times on petitions, crazy rules that obfuscate what one would normally consider common snese like a pop-up window telling you the asshat next to you in gang can shoot your ass), then leave. Personally, I wouldn't use this tactic (to dumb to figure it out, to laid back to execute it). I wouldn't sanction the behaviour in game either if I were the developers. BUT I aint. I have 8 accounts but stick around despite all the reasons above because there isnt't anything comparable out there. But if some other game company comes along with a persistent single shard world (sci-fi or fantasy) with a robust economy that has a better server architecutre (to address the lag) response times (to address bugs and petitions) and a more coherent rule set to address these kinds of issues (yeah, I like hard cruel reality, but I play games to get away from reality THAT hard and cruel ffs, so call it medium cruel reality), CCP will finally have a real horse race on their hands and that kind of competition may finally drive them to eleveate their game in new ways. Thank you for this nice post that has about 1% to do with this post. Read the first post again. For those that didnt get it: Noob invites victim Victim warps to noob Noob invites Ganker1 Noob invites Ganker2 and 3 which are at war with Ganker1 Ganker1, 2 and 3 can fire at victim Victim dies There was only 1 ganker. Me. Later on Ria Shar turned up, but we only killed a megathron and a rattlesnake (yarr). --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:47:00 - [34] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Peri Helion Exploit? Well, if CCP defines Exploit and they say this isn't, then it isn't. Good gaming? Well, kudos to Lofty for having figured this out. A game worth sticking around for? This tactic is valid and clever. If you dont't like it (or the sad fact that CCP says it is legal), then vote with your feet. For that matter, if you dont like the state of the game for any reason (lag, bugs, slow response times on petitions, crazy rules that obfuscate what one would normally consider common snese like a pop-up window telling you the asshat next to you in gang can shoot your ass), then leave. Personally, I wouldn't use this tactic (to dumb to figure it out, to laid back to execute it). I wouldn't sanction the behaviour in game either if I were the developers. BUT I aint. I have 8 accounts but stick around despite all the reasons above because there isnt't anything comparable out there. But if some other game company comes along with a persistent single shard world (sci-fi or fantasy) with a robust economy that has a better server architecutre (to address the lag) response times (to address bugs and petitions) and a more coherent rule set to address these kinds of issues (yeah, I like hard cruel reality, but I play games to get away from reality THAT hard and cruel ffs, so call it medium cruel reality), CCP will finally have a real horse race on their hands and that kind of competition may finally drive them to eleveate their game in new ways. Thank you for this nice post that has about 1% to do with this post. Read the first post again. For those that didnt get it: Noob invites victim Victim warps to noob Noob invites Ganker1 Noob invites Ganker2 and 3 which are at war with Ganker1 Ganker1, 2 and 3 can fire at victim Victim dies the lesson is: Kill all the noobs as soon as you see them. problem solved. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:49:00 - [35] Originally by: Liegus While it sounds like the OP's friend got ganked legally... I'm not sure I would have ever started Eve if I'd known it was a multiplayer game in which any cooperative interaction with another player (be it joining a gang or joining a corp) is an open invitation for said player to come on over and take all your stuff. Call me a carebear if you must, but I wonder whether the original intent of the game was to have a free-for-all area where you can just blow stuff up (0.0) and a second free-for-all area in which you can find a hole in game mechanics and then blow stuff up (0.1-1.0). It's not so much a free invitation to blow stuff up anywhere. I do pick and choose my targets, aiming for bs's / HAC's / Command ships mainly. You said eve is a single player game unless you're in a disposable ship. Not true. Yes, in many engagements you are there to make up the numbers, but in a say, 5 v 5, you flying a thorax or your flying a deimos could be the difference between winning and loosing. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:49:00 - [36] Lofty got a Rattlesnake now? Damn what is that, a Macharial, Navy Mega, and Rattlesnake all in one day? I think he's going to raise faction ship prices at this rate --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:50:00 - [37] Edited by: lofty29 on 04/09/2006 00:53:03 Originally by: Dark Shikari Lofty got a Rattlesnake now? Damn what is that, a Macharial, Navy Mega, and Rattlesnake all in one day? I think he's going to raise faction ship prices at this rate More importantly, be rich Also, I think it's important you should know. Both the Navythron and the Rattlesnake pilots confessed to me, while I was ransoming them, that they brought said ship + fit with real life money. So, I'm doing y'all macro-hating guys a favour, im one big ISK sink! --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
D'onryu Shoqui Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:51:00 - [38] Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 04/09/2006 00:51:35 maybe ccp dont call it an exploit but its still lame and pathetic, anyway wheres the fun in killing someone who posses no challenge?
Peri Helion Amarr Omega Whiskey Tango Foxtrot	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:52:00 - [39] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Peri Helion Exploit? Well, if CCP defines Exploit and they say this isn't, then it isn't. Good gaming? Well, kudos to Lofty for having figured this out. A game worth sticking around for? This tactic is valid and clever. If you dont't like it (or the sad fact that CCP says it is legal), then vote with your feet. For that matter, if you dont like the state of the game for any reason (lag, bugs, slow response times on petitions, crazy rules that obfuscate what one would normally consider common snese like a pop-up window telling you the asshat next to you in gang can shoot your ass), then leave. Personally, I wouldn't use this tactic (to dumb to figure it out, to laid back to execute it). I wouldn't sanction the behaviour in game either if I were the developers. BUT I aint. I have 8 accounts but stick around despite all the reasons above because there isnt't anything comparable out there. But if some other game company comes along with a persistent single shard world (sci-fi or fantasy) with a robust economy that has a better server architecutre (to address the lag) response times (to address bugs and petitions) and a more coherent rule set to address these kinds of issues (yeah, I like hard cruel reality, but I play games to get away from reality THAT hard and cruel ffs, so call it medium cruel reality), CCP will finally have a real horse race on their hands and that kind of competition may finally drive them to eleveate their game in new ways. Thank you for this nice post that has about 1% to do with this post. Read the first post again. For those that didnt get it: Noob invites victim Victim warps to noob Noob invites Ganker1 Noob invites Ganker2 and 3 which are at war with Ganker1 Ganker1, 2 and 3 can fire at victim Victim dies But the point remains, CCP says it is legal. And as I said, CCP makes the rules. I don't agree with them, and it is stupid. But the only recourse is to leave the game for something better. And right now there isn't. So I hate to say this, but what's your point? It's a stupid rule but neither you nor I make em.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:54:00 - [40] Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 04/09/2006 00:51:35 maybe ccp dont call it an exploit but its still lame and pathetic, anyway wheres the fun in killing someone who posses no challenge? Uhm. Ok, so a t2 cruise, gistii fitted rattlesnake is no challenge now. Wow, maybe I should start soloing dreads so I dont get called a n00b --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
Slaatibartfast Chimp Logistics	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:57:00 - [41] Go Lofty
Ria Shar Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 01:16:00 - [42] Say what you like. It is completely within game mechanics, as stated by CCP themselves. Yes, it may be cruel, heartless, and somewhat lame to use this method, but I have yet to find an easier and better yet more lucrative business. I really could care less what people think. If anyone here can state that they made 250million in the span of 2 minutes, please let me know. Have fun flaming us for doing what we do. Oh, by the way: YARR
Kira Natel	Posted - 2006.09.04 01:35:00 - [43] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Kira Natel Originally by: Dark Shikari Because clearly, CCP wants to earn as little as money as possible. Actually this is not that far off the mark imo. Altho unintended, this incident and other questionable tactics along with the recent dragon patch and unpopular dev responses make it look all too clearly what the results are. Uhhhm. I've been doing this for well over 5 months. It isnt new, it isnt dragon patch. Granted it's not- but its not quite as well known either. But as things come to light such as your adventures and with all the other probems lately is just another nail in the coffin. Player's awareness never focuses on the good things, they only remember the bad things, and they keep adding up. CCP usually does a good job of the balancing act but now it seems they're ticking almost everyone off at the same time. And that's never good. I just happened to focus on your particular incident as it was an interesting use of the game mechanics. It's just a page in the CCP handbook of downward spiral that's gaining more momentum.
LordZer00 Caldari Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:14:00 - [44] Escrow scams, Corp thieves, high-sec suicide ganks... The fact that they aren't specifically exploits means nothing. If you're the type of person that gets their jollies by griefing then the most we can hope is that it comes back to bite you in the rear somewhere down the road.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:18:00 - [45] Originally by: LordZer00 Escrow scams, Corp thieves, high-sec suicide ganks... The fact that they aren't specifically exploits means nothing. If you're the type of person that gets their jollies by griefing then the most we can hope is that it comes back to bite you in the rear somewhere down the road. So, piracy is griefing now? Because I use a different method to people in lowsec, does it mean I'm doing it to make people unhappy? No. If I could take peoples money while they have a smile on their face, I would. Fact is, I cant, so I'll do what it takes otherwise. I've not done this to a single target more than once, as far as I can remember, and all of my kills are random, I do not have personal vendettas against any of the targets. If I was griefing them, and I mean really hardcore griefing them, I dont think I'd be doing this. Nope, I do this for ISK, and to a lesser extent, fun. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Skraelingz Gallente Gallente Federal Bank	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:27:00 - [46] lol i think i might have run across this scam before. I was just starting out playing and i was still in the noob frig... i get a convo from someone asking if i would join thier gang and escort them because they needed a fast frigate or some such. i then inform the guy i was in a noob frigate and he stopped talking to me real quick. -----------------------------------------------
Infinity Ziona Feet Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:32:00 - [47] This is the same idiot that says he 'will run to 0.0 and hide with his friends' if someone declares war on him for doing this. Another shining example of Oveur unable to cope with running a MMOG. How is allowing this equal to 'harsh EvE', its more 'No Risk EvE'. All he needs to do is grow a pair and say 'dont do this anymore', coding it out is not even necessary. Click Me
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:33:00 - [48] And why should he? Eve's a sandbox. Clever ways to kick sand in players eyes included. //Maya
Infinity Ziona Feet Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:43:00 - [49] 'Clever' is an interesting word for the exploit. Click Me
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:46:00 - [50] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/09/2006 02:45:59 Something is an exploit only if called so by a dev or a GM. It has not been, hence you are wrong. So, when did you fall for this yourself? //Maya
Frater Perdurabo The Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:04:00 - [51] Just thought i'd bump this thread to give everyone a chance to read it, looks like fun well done on coming up with it.
Infinity Ziona Feet Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:10:00 - [52] I prefer to use the English Langauge definition for the word exploit rather then a forum created definition based on the dictionary of Maya. AFAIK the ganging of a kind person, who wants to help you accomplish something, on the pretense that you cannot accomplish it yourself and then inviting a warring corp into the gang without warning, and then ganking that helpful person, was not the purpose of the gang mechanic. Since it was not the intention of the gang mechanic and in fact is the anti-purpose in a practical sense, then by the English Language definition, it does indeed qualify as an exploit. Albeit, for some strange reason only Oveur knows, its not a punishable one. Thank you. Move Along. Click Me
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:16:00 - [53] Originally by: Infinity Ziona I prefer to use the English Langauge definition for the word exploit rather then a forum created definition based on the dictionary of Maya. By the same logic, jetcan mining and gate sniping are also "exploits." --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:17:00 - [54] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/09/2006 03:17:49 That's CCP's definition. You're arguing with CCP, not with me. "was not the purpose of the gang mechanic" SO WHAT? It's a clever use of the mechanism. It's grief, sure. As long as it's not harrassment, grief is FULLY ACCEPTABLE in Eve. It's not an exploit and you won't be banned for doing it. Ziona is plainly and simply incorrect. There are arguments that it should be changed so you can help newbs (and I'd argue for that), but arguing in favour of FUD as Ziona does is wrong. Dark Shikari, of course they are. That's Ziona's next point. Geesh. //Maya
Infinity Ziona Feet Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:21:00 - [55] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Infinity Ziona I prefer to use the English Langauge definition for the word exploit rather then a forum created definition based on the dictionary of Maya. By the same logic, jetcan mining and gate sniping are also "exploits." They are but they entail risk and dont cause serious loss or make EvE look like **e. Lofty's exploit does not have any risk, its RL nasty since the guy is thinking hes helping another player, makes the developers and EvE look like **heads since they allow it and requires zero skill. Click Me
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:25:00 - [56] Originally by: Maya Rkell Dark Shikari, of course they are. That's Ziona's next point. Geesh. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Merin Ryskin Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:39:00 - [57] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 04/09/2006 03:40:31 Look, the reason it's an exploit is because the "a member of this gang is at war with blahblahblah" message only pops up if they're already in the gang when you join. The exploit is that you're evading the intended warning by bringing the warring player in AFTER the victim. The intent of the game mechanics is clear, a player is always given a warning if their gang members could be involved in concord-approved combat. The fact that you don't get one if the invites are sent in the wrong order is a loophole in the rules, and one that should be fixed. If the issue was just a player ignoring the warning, then it wouldn't be an exploit at all. Then it would just be Darwin at work again, and some lucky pirates. You saw the warning, you trusted the wrong people, learn from your mistakes. But this isn't the case, the victim never gets the warning message they're supposed to have. Just to be clear: NOT AN EXPLOIT: Inviting players to a gang with warring pilots to kill them. EXPLOIT: Setting the invitation order in a way that bypasses the intended "warring pilots in your gang" message.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:51:00 - [58] Edited by: Bhaal on 04/09/2006 03:54:36 Are you as ghey in RL as you are in the game lofty? Just asking... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
Toki Asturias	Posted - 2006.09.04 04:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Merin Ryskin NOT AN EXPLOIT: Inviting players to a gang with warring pilots to kill them. EXPLOIT: Setting the invitation order in a way that bypasses the intended "warring pilots in your gang" message. I agree with this. The warning is there to tell people information that is necasarry that could not be gathered otherwise. Circumventing this warning does not seem to be what was intended. Then again who's dumb enough to join some random person's gang with a faction ship? This does have the negative side effect of making it much harder to trust a real noob who is having difficulties. This can make Eve very hard to get into for new players. New players are necasarry for the continuing survival of any online game.
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.04 04:36:00 - [60] Originally by: Toki Asturias Originally by: Merin Ryskin NOT AN EXPLOIT: Inviting players to a gang with warring pilots to kill them. EXPLOIT: Setting the invitation order in a way that bypasses the intended "warring pilots in your gang" message. I agree with this. The warning is there to tell people information that is necasarry that could not be gathered otherwise. Circumventing this warning does not seem to be what was intended. Then again who's dumb enough to join some random person's gang with a faction ship? This does have the negative side effect of making it much harder to trust a real noob who is having difficulties. This can make Eve very hard to get into for new players. New players are necasarry for the continuing survival of any online game. solution 1: accept the invite, have your corpmates ready inside a bubble, make excuse that you cant seem to warp to them, and have them warp too you....kill the noob as soon as he shows regardless of who else shows up... solution 2: kill all noobs on site with suicidal gank squads. solution 3: BLOB the noob stations with Apocs full of smartbombs, killing anything using one Apoc at a time...(concord loot cans?) solution 4: distribute clue; trust nobody in a game like Eve...until they have earned it...and then trust them less... FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post

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