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Gang mechanics and ganking ppl (New tactic impossible to evade)

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.03 21:58:00 - [1] So my mate got invited by a noob that asked for help on a mission. This noob is in an npc corp and not in a corp that is at war with anyone. So my mate warps to the "noob" and then the noob invites 3 other pilot from 2 different corps that are at war with eachother. Then he scrambles my corp mate but concord doesnt show up and 3 pilots warp in and gank my corp mate. My mate petitioned and all he got was "Its within the game mechanics". Thats bullcrap! He had no chance to evade the war inside the gang because he doesnt get a warning when ppl that are at war join the gang. And somehow the noob didnt even get concorded for initiating aggression with my corp mate AND HE`S IN A NPC CORP!!! How is that not an exploit? Ship lovers click here
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:01:00 - [2] hmm this surely is an exploit if it can be done... wow they say its game mechanics? damn need to make a new sig...
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:01:00 - [3] i agree anyone new joining teh gang existing gang members should be warned - this is a clear exploit but given the existing problems going on atm unlikley to be fixed (if its in a noob corp) dont gang with it
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:04:00 - [4] i agree... yet another lame tactic by lazy pirates that just want to grief... sad sad. the whole 'game mechanics' is bull... because exploits are based on game mechanics... or else we couldnt do them! duh.
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:04:00 - [5] then again apparetnly using an AFK macro is illegal but if youre at the keyboard and able to respond then macro use isnt illegal (or so ive heard) Thats why half the macros remain in game CCP cant prove it So really theres a lot of things that aint right but this gang issue is a low priority youre friend should have been happy for some insta PVP
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:08:00 - [6] If this is the person I think doing this (lofty), he has petitioned to a senior GM and the GMs have confirmed multiple times that this is allowed. Whether that should be the case... is another matter. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:13:00 - [7] HIIII helspaawwwnn. Nice loot your 'mate' had --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Lord Frost i agree... yet another lame tactic by lazy pirates that just want to grief... sad sad. the whole 'game mechanics' is bull... because exploits are based on game mechanics... or else we couldnt do them! duh. And, hardly. I make billlliiiooons doing this 2x domi gyros, 2x dark blood pdu, true sansha pdu, domi tracking computer? Arr --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
Xeliya	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:17:00 - [9] Edited by: Xeliya on 03/09/2006 22:18:50 Edited by: Xeliya on 03/09/2006 22:18:15 Ya I got smoked like this once and I got the responce you were warned when you joined the gang. All it says if they become at war you will be a target. They need to make it so you will see others as war targets, be warned when other join that are at war and allowed to fire first if your in a gang, or just give damn kill rights as it took 6 of them like 30 min to take me down (was jammed 90% of the time) would be nice to go and repay the favour!
Pestillence Revelations Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:19:00 - [10] Sounds like an exploit to me. No pop up warning and also surely not "intended" by the dev's to work this way (common sense anyone??) Tick the boxes and it makes it a sploit imho.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:20:00 - [11] An exploit is something that cannot be avoided. This can be avoided, quite easily. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:21:00 - [12] Originally by: lofty29 An exploit is something that cannot be avoided. This can be avoided, quite easily. Is it true that you can still shoot at your victims for another 15 minutes even if they leave the gang? Ship lovers click here
Pestillence Revelations Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:23:00 - [13] Originally by: lofty29 An exploit is something that cannot be avoided. This can be avoided, quite easily. At the time of joining the gang the person checks and no-popup appears. (has player done everything in his power to be safe) TICK Lamer invites his 2 alt warring buddies to gang. Original player does not get warning that the game mechanics are doing something fruity. (TICK) Working as intended? I think not. This isnt about your old lame tactic.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:26:00 - [14] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: lofty29 An exploit is something that cannot be avoided. This can be avoided, quite easily. Is it true that you can still shoot at your victims for another 15 minutes even if they leave the gang? If I shoot them while they are in the gang, yes. Say, they warp in at 40, i lock and get an ECM, they warp off, I chase and find myself ontop of them. It's common aggro. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:55:00 - [15] CCP encourages and wants you to use any means possible to gank and grief... why haven't the masses figured this out?? If they had any "balance" or "rules" to stop the behaviour, then their subscriptions would increase and thus ruin the game for all since the hardware and bandwidth they have can not support the players as is. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Pj Dj Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.03 23:58:00 - [16] Its a great way for players too lame to look for real targets to get their kills I guess. Exploiting pussies.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:01:00 - [17] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 04/09/2006 00:01:29 Originally by: DukDodgerz CCP encourages and wants you to use any means possible to gank and grief... why haven't the masses figured this out?? If they had any "balance" or "rules" to stop the behaviour, then their subscriptions would increase Because clearly, CCP wants to earn as little as money as possible. Originally by: Darkrydar Originally by: lofty29 2x domi gyros, 2x dark blood pdu, true sansha pdu, domi tracking computer? Arr Wow, thats maybe, 275M... Not worthy of bragging. Sure, but its not nothing. From what I've heard he baited two faction ships, worth a total of over 3 billion, just today. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Darkrydar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:01:00 - [18] Originally by: lofty29 2x domi gyros, 2x dark blood pdu, true sansha pdu, domi tracking computer? Arr Wow, thats maybe, 275M... Not worthy of bragging.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:03:00 - [19] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 04/09/2006 00:01:29 Originally by: DukDodgerz CCP encourages and wants you to use any means possible to gank and grief... why haven't the masses figured this out?? If they had any "balance" or "rules" to stop the behaviour, then their subscriptions would increase Because clearly, CCP wants to earn as little as money as possible. Originally by: Darkrydar Originally by: lofty29 2x domi gyros, 2x dark blood pdu, true sansha pdu, domi tracking computer? Arr Wow, thats maybe, 275M... Not worthy of bragging. Sure, but its not nothing. From what I've heard he baited two faction ships, worth a total of over 3 billion, just today. Make it 3 --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
Major Death Caldari Elite United Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:04:00 - [20] The only thing that bugs me about this is that new players will not get help from the more experienced. Thanks to the antics of lofty29, new players now are shunned when they ask for help. This is not exactly a good situation.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:06:00 - [21] Originally by: Major Death The only thing that bugs me about this is that new players will not get help from the more experienced. Thanks to the antics of lofty29, new players now are shunned when they ask for help. This is not exactly a good situation. Yep. Go lofty. //Maya
Sergio Ling Standard Operations Building Services Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:08:00 - [22] impossible to evade? now THAT'S bullcrap just dont gang with people you don't know Originally by: Oveur Internally dismissed as carebear whine, we quietly moved our Kestrels to another system.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:13:00 - [23] Originally by: Sergio Ling impossible to evade? now THAT'S bullcrap just dont gang with people you don't know Exactly why it isnt an exploit --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
tadig smik Taintclan Industries	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:16:00 - [24] Originally by: Miss Overlord i agree anyone new joining teh gang existing gang members should be warned - this is a clear exploit but given the existing problems going on atm unlikley to be fixed (if its in a noob corp) dont gang with it You are warned... unless something has changed in the past 24 hours, you do get a warning when joining a gang where somebody is at war with somebody else... If I invite to gang who is at war with somebody else, I get a 'dodgy candidate' warning...
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:17:00 - [25] Originally by: tadig smik Originally by: Miss Overlord i agree anyone new joining teh gang existing gang members should be warned - this is a clear exploit but given the existing problems going on atm unlikley to be fixed (if its in a noob corp) dont gang with it You are warned... unless something has changed in the past 24 hours, you do get a warning when joining a gang where somebody is at war with somebody else... If I invite to gang who is at war with somebody else, I get a 'dodgy candidate' warning... Read the original post again. Ship lovers click here
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:18:00 - [26] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Sergio Ling impossible to evade? now THAT'S bullcrap just dont gang with people you don't know Exactly why it isnt an exploit Ignoring the warning should not be a exploit...but this wrinkle should be you lame assed **** ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Kira Natel	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:19:00 - [27] Originally by: Dark Shikari Because clearly, CCP wants to earn as little as money as possible. Actually this is not that far off the mark imo. Altho unintended, this incident and other questionable tactics along with the recent dragon patch and unpopular dev responses make it look all too clearly what the results are.
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:20:00 - [28] Originally by: Eve Its within the game mechanics. Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:21:00 - [29] Originally by: Kira Natel Originally by: Dark Shikari Because clearly, CCP wants to earn as little as money as possible. Actually this is not that far off the mark imo. Altho unintended, this incident and other questionable tactics along with the recent dragon patch and unpopular dev responses make it look all too clearly what the results are. Uhhhm. I've been doing this for well over 5 months. It isnt new, it isnt dragon patch. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
Peri Helion Amarr Omega Whiskey Tango Foxtrot	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:29:00 - [30] Exploit? Well, if CCP defines Exploit and they say this isn't, then it isn't. Good gaming? Well, kudos to Lofty for having figured this out. A game worth sticking around for? This tactic is valid and clever. If you dont't like it (or the sad fact that CCP says it is legal), then vote with your feet. For that matter, if you dont like the state of the game for any reason (lag, bugs, slow response times on petitions, crazy rules that obfuscate what one would normally consider common snese like a pop-up window telling you the asshat next to you in gang can shoot your ass), then leave. Personally, I wouldn't use this tactic (to dumb to figure it out, to laid back to execute it). I wouldn't sanction the behaviour in game either if I were the developers. BUT I aint. I have 8 accounts but stick around despite all the reasons above because there isnt't anything comparable out there. But if some other game company comes along with a persistent single shard world (sci-fi or fantasy) with a robust economy that has a better server architecutre (to address the lag) response times (to address bugs and petitions) and a more coherent rule set to address these kinds of issues (yeah, I like hard cruel reality, but I play games to get away from reality THAT hard and cruel ffs, so call it medium cruel reality), CCP will finally have a real horse race on their hands and that kind of competition may finally drive them to eleveate their game in new ways.
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:35:00 - [31] Originally by: Peri Helion Exploit? Well, if CCP defines Exploit and they say this isn't, then it isn't. Good gaming? Well, kudos to Lofty for having figured this out. A game worth sticking around for? This tactic is valid and clever. If you dont't like it (or the sad fact that CCP says it is legal), then vote with your feet. For that matter, if you dont like the state of the game for any reason (lag, bugs, slow response times on petitions, crazy rules that obfuscate what one would normally consider common snese like a pop-up window telling you the asshat next to you in gang can shoot your ass), then leave. Personally, I wouldn't use this tactic (to dumb to figure it out, to laid back to execute it). I wouldn't sanction the behaviour in game either if I were the developers. BUT I aint. I have 8 accounts but stick around despite all the reasons above because there isnt't anything comparable out there. But if some other game company comes along with a persistent single shard world (sci-fi or fantasy) with a robust economy that has a better server architecutre (to address the lag) response times (to address bugs and petitions) and a more coherent rule set to address these kinds of issues (yeah, I like hard cruel reality, but I play games to get away from reality THAT hard and cruel ffs, so call it medium cruel reality), CCP will finally have a real horse race on their hands and that kind of competition may finally drive them to eleveate their game in new ways. Thank you for this nice post that has about 1% to do with this post. Read the first post again. For those that didnt get it: Noob invites victim Victim warps to noob Noob invites Ganker1 Noob invites Ganker2 and 3 which are at war with Ganker1 Ganker1, 2 and 3 can fire at victim Victim dies Ship lovers click here
Liegus	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:37:00 - [32] While it sounds like the OP's friend got ganked legally... I'm not sure I would have ever started Eve if I'd known it was a multiplayer game in which any cooperative interaction with another player (be it joining a gang or joining a corp) is an open invitation for said player to come on over and take all your stuff. Call me a carebear if you must, but I wonder whether the original intent of the game was to have a free-for-all area where you can just blow stuff up (0.0) and a second free-for-all area in which you can find a hole in game mechanics and then blow stuff up (0.1-1.0). Don't get me wrong... it doesn't seem unrealistic or game-breaking that everyone is free to go blow up everyone and take their stuff (in fact, that gives Eve some interesting spice that other games lack), but it makes one wonder what the original purpose of high-sec was. It's also a little sad that Eve is pretty much a single player game unless you're flying a disposable ship. (That part is getting better for me as I can gradually afford to lose better and better ships. =D )
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:46:00 - [33] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Peri Helion Exploit? Well, if CCP defines Exploit and they say this isn't, then it isn't. Good gaming? Well, kudos to Lofty for having figured this out. A game worth sticking around for? This tactic is valid and clever. If you dont't like it (or the sad fact that CCP says it is legal), then vote with your feet. For that matter, if you dont like the state of the game for any reason (lag, bugs, slow response times on petitions, crazy rules that obfuscate what one would normally consider common snese like a pop-up window telling you the asshat next to you in gang can shoot your ass), then leave. Personally, I wouldn't use this tactic (to dumb to figure it out, to laid back to execute it). I wouldn't sanction the behaviour in game either if I were the developers. BUT I aint. I have 8 accounts but stick around despite all the reasons above because there isnt't anything comparable out there. But if some other game company comes along with a persistent single shard world (sci-fi or fantasy) with a robust economy that has a better server architecutre (to address the lag) response times (to address bugs and petitions) and a more coherent rule set to address these kinds of issues (yeah, I like hard cruel reality, but I play games to get away from reality THAT hard and cruel ffs, so call it medium cruel reality), CCP will finally have a real horse race on their hands and that kind of competition may finally drive them to eleveate their game in new ways. Thank you for this nice post that has about 1% to do with this post. Read the first post again. For those that didnt get it: Noob invites victim Victim warps to noob Noob invites Ganker1 Noob invites Ganker2 and 3 which are at war with Ganker1 Ganker1, 2 and 3 can fire at victim Victim dies There was only 1 ganker. Me. Later on Ria Shar turned up, but we only killed a megathron and a rattlesnake (yarr). --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:47:00 - [34] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Peri Helion Exploit? Well, if CCP defines Exploit and they say this isn't, then it isn't. Good gaming? Well, kudos to Lofty for having figured this out. A game worth sticking around for? This tactic is valid and clever. If you dont't like it (or the sad fact that CCP says it is legal), then vote with your feet. For that matter, if you dont like the state of the game for any reason (lag, bugs, slow response times on petitions, crazy rules that obfuscate what one would normally consider common snese like a pop-up window telling you the asshat next to you in gang can shoot your ass), then leave. Personally, I wouldn't use this tactic (to dumb to figure it out, to laid back to execute it). I wouldn't sanction the behaviour in game either if I were the developers. BUT I aint. I have 8 accounts but stick around despite all the reasons above because there isnt't anything comparable out there. But if some other game company comes along with a persistent single shard world (sci-fi or fantasy) with a robust economy that has a better server architecutre (to address the lag) response times (to address bugs and petitions) and a more coherent rule set to address these kinds of issues (yeah, I like hard cruel reality, but I play games to get away from reality THAT hard and cruel ffs, so call it medium cruel reality), CCP will finally have a real horse race on their hands and that kind of competition may finally drive them to eleveate their game in new ways. Thank you for this nice post that has about 1% to do with this post. Read the first post again. For those that didnt get it: Noob invites victim Victim warps to noob Noob invites Ganker1 Noob invites Ganker2 and 3 which are at war with Ganker1 Ganker1, 2 and 3 can fire at victim Victim dies the lesson is: Kill all the noobs as soon as you see them. problem solved. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:49:00 - [35] Originally by: Liegus While it sounds like the OP's friend got ganked legally... I'm not sure I would have ever started Eve if I'd known it was a multiplayer game in which any cooperative interaction with another player (be it joining a gang or joining a corp) is an open invitation for said player to come on over and take all your stuff. Call me a carebear if you must, but I wonder whether the original intent of the game was to have a free-for-all area where you can just blow stuff up (0.0) and a second free-for-all area in which you can find a hole in game mechanics and then blow stuff up (0.1-1.0). It's not so much a free invitation to blow stuff up anywhere. I do pick and choose my targets, aiming for bs's / HAC's / Command ships mainly. You said eve is a single player game unless you're in a disposable ship. Not true. Yes, in many engagements you are there to make up the numbers, but in a say, 5 v 5, you flying a thorax or your flying a deimos could be the difference between winning and loosing. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:49:00 - [36] Lofty got a Rattlesnake now? Damn what is that, a Macharial, Navy Mega, and Rattlesnake all in one day? I think he's going to raise faction ship prices at this rate --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:50:00 - [37] Edited by: lofty29 on 04/09/2006 00:53:03 Originally by: Dark Shikari Lofty got a Rattlesnake now? Damn what is that, a Macharial, Navy Mega, and Rattlesnake all in one day? I think he's going to raise faction ship prices at this rate More importantly, be rich Also, I think it's important you should know. Both the Navythron and the Rattlesnake pilots confessed to me, while I was ransoming them, that they brought said ship + fit with real life money. So, I'm doing y'all macro-hating guys a favour, im one big ISK sink! --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
D'onryu Shoqui Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:51:00 - [38] Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 04/09/2006 00:51:35 maybe ccp dont call it an exploit but its still lame and pathetic, anyway wheres the fun in killing someone who posses no challenge?
Peri Helion Amarr Omega Whiskey Tango Foxtrot	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:52:00 - [39] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Peri Helion Exploit? Well, if CCP defines Exploit and they say this isn't, then it isn't. Good gaming? Well, kudos to Lofty for having figured this out. A game worth sticking around for? This tactic is valid and clever. If you dont't like it (or the sad fact that CCP says it is legal), then vote with your feet. For that matter, if you dont like the state of the game for any reason (lag, bugs, slow response times on petitions, crazy rules that obfuscate what one would normally consider common snese like a pop-up window telling you the asshat next to you in gang can shoot your ass), then leave. Personally, I wouldn't use this tactic (to dumb to figure it out, to laid back to execute it). I wouldn't sanction the behaviour in game either if I were the developers. BUT I aint. I have 8 accounts but stick around despite all the reasons above because there isnt't anything comparable out there. But if some other game company comes along with a persistent single shard world (sci-fi or fantasy) with a robust economy that has a better server architecutre (to address the lag) response times (to address bugs and petitions) and a more coherent rule set to address these kinds of issues (yeah, I like hard cruel reality, but I play games to get away from reality THAT hard and cruel ffs, so call it medium cruel reality), CCP will finally have a real horse race on their hands and that kind of competition may finally drive them to eleveate their game in new ways. Thank you for this nice post that has about 1% to do with this post. Read the first post again. For those that didnt get it: Noob invites victim Victim warps to noob Noob invites Ganker1 Noob invites Ganker2 and 3 which are at war with Ganker1 Ganker1, 2 and 3 can fire at victim Victim dies But the point remains, CCP says it is legal. And as I said, CCP makes the rules. I don't agree with them, and it is stupid. But the only recourse is to leave the game for something better. And right now there isn't. So I hate to say this, but what's your point? It's a stupid rule but neither you nor I make em.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:54:00 - [40] Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 04/09/2006 00:51:35 maybe ccp dont call it an exploit but its still lame and pathetic, anyway wheres the fun in killing someone who posses no challenge? Uhm. Ok, so a t2 cruise, gistii fitted rattlesnake is no challenge now. Wow, maybe I should start soloing dreads so I dont get called a n00b --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. *Life is like a box of Ibises; You'll always be a newbie. -Kaemonn
Slaatibartfast Chimp Logistics	Posted - 2006.09.04 00:57:00 - [41] Go Lofty
Ria Shar Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 01:16:00 - [42] Say what you like. It is completely within game mechanics, as stated by CCP themselves. Yes, it may be cruel, heartless, and somewhat lame to use this method, but I have yet to find an easier and better yet more lucrative business. I really could care less what people think. If anyone here can state that they made 250million in the span of 2 minutes, please let me know. Have fun flaming us for doing what we do. Oh, by the way: YARR
Kira Natel	Posted - 2006.09.04 01:35:00 - [43] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Kira Natel Originally by: Dark Shikari Because clearly, CCP wants to earn as little as money as possible. Actually this is not that far off the mark imo. Altho unintended, this incident and other questionable tactics along with the recent dragon patch and unpopular dev responses make it look all too clearly what the results are. Uhhhm. I've been doing this for well over 5 months. It isnt new, it isnt dragon patch. Granted it's not- but its not quite as well known either. But as things come to light such as your adventures and with all the other probems lately is just another nail in the coffin. Player's awareness never focuses on the good things, they only remember the bad things, and they keep adding up. CCP usually does a good job of the balancing act but now it seems they're ticking almost everyone off at the same time. And that's never good. I just happened to focus on your particular incident as it was an interesting use of the game mechanics. It's just a page in the CCP handbook of downward spiral that's gaining more momentum.
LordZer00 Caldari Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:14:00 - [44] Escrow scams, Corp thieves, high-sec suicide ganks... The fact that they aren't specifically exploits means nothing. If you're the type of person that gets their jollies by griefing then the most we can hope is that it comes back to bite you in the rear somewhere down the road.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:18:00 - [45] Originally by: LordZer00 Escrow scams, Corp thieves, high-sec suicide ganks... The fact that they aren't specifically exploits means nothing. If you're the type of person that gets their jollies by griefing then the most we can hope is that it comes back to bite you in the rear somewhere down the road. So, piracy is griefing now? Because I use a different method to people in lowsec, does it mean I'm doing it to make people unhappy? No. If I could take peoples money while they have a smile on their face, I would. Fact is, I cant, so I'll do what it takes otherwise. I've not done this to a single target more than once, as far as I can remember, and all of my kills are random, I do not have personal vendettas against any of the targets. If I was griefing them, and I mean really hardcore griefing them, I dont think I'd be doing this. Nope, I do this for ISK, and to a lesser extent, fun. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Skraelingz Gallente Gallente Federal Bank	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:27:00 - [46] lol i think i might have run across this scam before. I was just starting out playing and i was still in the noob frig... i get a convo from someone asking if i would join thier gang and escort them because they needed a fast frigate or some such. i then inform the guy i was in a noob frigate and he stopped talking to me real quick. -----------------------------------------------
Infinity Ziona Feet Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:32:00 - [47] This is the same idiot that says he 'will run to 0.0 and hide with his friends' if someone declares war on him for doing this. Another shining example of Oveur unable to cope with running a MMOG. How is allowing this equal to 'harsh EvE', its more 'No Risk EvE'. All he needs to do is grow a pair and say 'dont do this anymore', coding it out is not even necessary. Click Me
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:33:00 - [48] And why should he? Eve's a sandbox. Clever ways to kick sand in players eyes included. //Maya
Infinity Ziona Feet Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:43:00 - [49] 'Clever' is an interesting word for the exploit. Click Me
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.04 02:46:00 - [50] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/09/2006 02:45:59 Something is an exploit only if called so by a dev or a GM. It has not been, hence you are wrong. So, when did you fall for this yourself? //Maya
Frater Perdurabo The Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:04:00 - [51] Just thought i'd bump this thread to give everyone a chance to read it, looks like fun well done on coming up with it.
Infinity Ziona Feet Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:10:00 - [52] I prefer to use the English Langauge definition for the word exploit rather then a forum created definition based on the dictionary of Maya. AFAIK the ganging of a kind person, who wants to help you accomplish something, on the pretense that you cannot accomplish it yourself and then inviting a warring corp into the gang without warning, and then ganking that helpful person, was not the purpose of the gang mechanic. Since it was not the intention of the gang mechanic and in fact is the anti-purpose in a practical sense, then by the English Language definition, it does indeed qualify as an exploit. Albeit, for some strange reason only Oveur knows, its not a punishable one. Thank you. Move Along. Click Me
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:16:00 - [53] Originally by: Infinity Ziona I prefer to use the English Langauge definition for the word exploit rather then a forum created definition based on the dictionary of Maya. By the same logic, jetcan mining and gate sniping are also "exploits." --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:17:00 - [54] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/09/2006 03:17:49 That's CCP's definition. You're arguing with CCP, not with me. "was not the purpose of the gang mechanic" SO WHAT? It's a clever use of the mechanism. It's grief, sure. As long as it's not harrassment, grief is FULLY ACCEPTABLE in Eve. It's not an exploit and you won't be banned for doing it. Ziona is plainly and simply incorrect. There are arguments that it should be changed so you can help newbs (and I'd argue for that), but arguing in favour of FUD as Ziona does is wrong. Dark Shikari, of course they are. That's Ziona's next point. Geesh. //Maya
Infinity Ziona Feet Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:21:00 - [55] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Infinity Ziona I prefer to use the English Langauge definition for the word exploit rather then a forum created definition based on the dictionary of Maya. By the same logic, jetcan mining and gate sniping are also "exploits." They are but they entail risk and dont cause serious loss or make EvE look like **e. Lofty's exploit does not have any risk, its RL nasty since the guy is thinking hes helping another player, makes the developers and EvE look like **heads since they allow it and requires zero skill. Click Me
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:25:00 - [56] Originally by: Maya Rkell Dark Shikari, of course they are. That's Ziona's next point. Geesh. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Merin Ryskin Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:39:00 - [57] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 04/09/2006 03:40:31 Look, the reason it's an exploit is because the "a member of this gang is at war with blahblahblah" message only pops up if they're already in the gang when you join. The exploit is that you're evading the intended warning by bringing the warring player in AFTER the victim. The intent of the game mechanics is clear, a player is always given a warning if their gang members could be involved in concord-approved combat. The fact that you don't get one if the invites are sent in the wrong order is a loophole in the rules, and one that should be fixed. If the issue was just a player ignoring the warning, then it wouldn't be an exploit at all. Then it would just be Darwin at work again, and some lucky pirates. You saw the warning, you trusted the wrong people, learn from your mistakes. But this isn't the case, the victim never gets the warning message they're supposed to have. Just to be clear: NOT AN EXPLOIT: Inviting players to a gang with warring pilots to kill them. EXPLOIT: Setting the invitation order in a way that bypasses the intended "warring pilots in your gang" message.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:51:00 - [58] Edited by: Bhaal on 04/09/2006 03:54:36 Are you as ghey in RL as you are in the game lofty? Just asking... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero I give this sig 3/10 for creativity and 10/10 for having me in it :) - Xorus
Toki Asturias	Posted - 2006.09.04 04:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Merin Ryskin NOT AN EXPLOIT: Inviting players to a gang with warring pilots to kill them. EXPLOIT: Setting the invitation order in a way that bypasses the intended "warring pilots in your gang" message. I agree with this. The warning is there to tell people information that is necasarry that could not be gathered otherwise. Circumventing this warning does not seem to be what was intended. Then again who's dumb enough to join some random person's gang with a faction ship? This does have the negative side effect of making it much harder to trust a real noob who is having difficulties. This can make Eve very hard to get into for new players. New players are necasarry for the continuing survival of any online game.
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.04 04:36:00 - [60] Originally by: Toki Asturias Originally by: Merin Ryskin NOT AN EXPLOIT: Inviting players to a gang with warring pilots to kill them. EXPLOIT: Setting the invitation order in a way that bypasses the intended "warring pilots in your gang" message. I agree with this. The warning is there to tell people information that is necasarry that could not be gathered otherwise. Circumventing this warning does not seem to be what was intended. Then again who's dumb enough to join some random person's gang with a faction ship? This does have the negative side effect of making it much harder to trust a real noob who is having difficulties. This can make Eve very hard to get into for new players. New players are necasarry for the continuing survival of any online game. solution 1: accept the invite, have your corpmates ready inside a bubble, make excuse that you cant seem to warp to them, and have them warp too you....kill the noob as soon as he shows regardless of who else shows up... solution 2: kill all noobs on site with suicidal gank squads. solution 3: BLOB the noob stations with Apocs full of smartbombs, killing anything using one Apoc at a time...(concord loot cans?) solution 4: distribute clue; trust nobody in a game like Eve...until they have earned it...and then trust them less... FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Infinity Ziona Feet Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 05:27:00 - [61] Originally by: DukDodgerz Originally by: Toki Asturias Originally by: Merin Ryskin NOT AN EXPLOIT: Inviting players to a gang with warring pilots to kill them. EXPLOIT: Setting the invitation order in a way that bypasses the intended "warring pilots in your gang" message. I agree with this. The warning is there to tell people information that is necasarry that could not be gathered otherwise. Circumventing this warning does not seem to be what was intended. Then again who's dumb enough to join some random person's gang with a faction ship? This does have the negative side effect of making it much harder to trust a real noob who is having difficulties. This can make Eve very hard to get into for new players. New players are necasarry for the continuing survival of any online game. solution 1: accept the invite, have your corpmates ready inside a bubble, make excuse that you cant seem to warp to them, and have them warp too you....kill the noob as soon as he shows regardless of who else shows up... solution 2: kill all noobs on site with suicidal gank squads. solution 3: BLOB the noob stations with Apocs full of smartbombs, killing anything using one Apoc at a time...(concord loot cans?) solution 4: distribute clue; trust nobody in a game like Eve...until they have earned it...and then trust them less... Obviously from the book - 'Impractical Ways for Psychic People to Deal with Exploiters' By Sum Darmarse. Click Me
Kalixa Hihro	Posted - 2006.09.04 05:54:00 - [62] Originally by: Hellspawn01 How is that not an exploit? It's not a bug or unintended feature. -Kal /----------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ My opinion in no way represents that of my corp or anyone I am associated with, and is probably entirely wrong.
Striker IV Gallente Brother in Arms Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 06:31:00 - [63] [[[ Just to be clear: NOT AN EXPLOIT: Inviting players to a gang with warring pilots to kill them. EXPLOIT: Setting the invitation order in a way that bypasses the intended "warring pilots in your gang" message.]]] i agree to this as well. a person should have the option to see whose getting invited Especially with warring members being invited. a new low lofty , glad to see your using up the GM's valueable time as well checking on " is this ok masta? you got 1 GM you consistantly talk to , cuz hes an idiot. Team work is essential... It gives the other team something ELSE to shoot at!
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2006.09.04 06:36:00 - [64] Originally by: DukDodgerz CCP encourages and wants you to use any means possible to gank and grief... why haven't the masses figured this out?? QFT! Main reasons I'm too bored to play currently. WoW offers me much more ENTERTAIMENT and FUN (Read those two words again and again, then add TO ME at the end. Then figure out what means "TO ME". Saying "TO ME" means that I get more bang for my bucks. I don't play EVE to please you or how you want me to play it aka. be your soft target). Unnerf Amarr! "Just because you can utterly ruin another player's game doesn't mean that you must."
Hakera	Posted - 2006.09.04 07:10:00 - [65] ironically, the original changes to gangs and wars etc were brought in because of exactly this situation. A hostile corp you were at war with, would often have out of corp mates in gang who would be able to attack you the second you attacked him, you would be none the wise beforehand of these apparant neutrals.
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.04 07:33:00 - [66] Originally by: Hakera ironically, the original changes to gangs and wars etc were brought in because of exactly this situation. A hostile corp you were at war with, would often have out of corp mates in gang who would be able to attack you the second you attacked him, you would be none the wise beforehand of these apparant neutrals. Linkage Good everyone off to jita will mean no more suicide ganks (well for t2 BPOs) otherwise should be fun might empty the system out and a good anti macro miner tool as they also accept gang invites for some reason
Tao Han Caldari Crucial Electronics	Posted - 2006.09.04 07:39:00 - [67] The only sad thing about this is that ppl stop helping the real newbies. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content - Cortes Leave my sigs alone *sob - Tao Han

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2006.09.04 07:54:00 - [68] Veldspar What is stupid though, is that all become wartargets, imo CCP should just allow gangs to fire on each other, problem solved since noone would accept a gang invite from an unknown by then. I for one per default do not accept gang invites unless its a must, and then by someone whom I do trust. EVE-Files \| EVE-Search \| Monitor this Thread

Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:13:00 - [69] Wow... This has gotten sad now... Normally I take the side of the pirates when it comes to suicide kills or gang kills because they help remove n00bs from EVE. Now this seems like an exploit to me! Killing a n00b who is too lazy to read the "Join Warring Gang" popup is fine, but doing it this way so they don't get the popup at all is just low... You have lost all respect now lofty!
bunmastahflex Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:15:00 - [70] Originally by: Tao Han The only sad thing about this is that ppl stop helping the real newbies. they have a help channel.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:17:00 - [71] I'd say this should be disallowed because the victim receives zero warning, and it IS impossible to avoid if you want to use the gang mechanic with anyone but a corpmate. Incidentall, Lofty, you know you can shoot corpmates? I forsee "Loftycorp is recruiting" posts Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Mikal Drey Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.09.04 08:25:00 - [72] hey hey While i think its absolutly hilarious that people are still falling for that very old and lame trick and lame people are exploiting it to other peoples expense. I 100% believe that its preventing people from getting Geniune help. CCP should seperate war targets from gang mates. that would end it :) it used to be you could atack any gang mate . . nerfed cause of some griefing it became gangmates war=yours too . . . brought in due to some poor sportsman PvP tactics now players will use a neutral player then gang in the others which circumvents ANY warnings about a gang. - this is where lofty lost my respect. advice for the future - accept a gang from a neutral player but if someone joins the gang . . . leave. gangmates wars shouldnt be yours. and with the introduction of the overvies and the ability to select war targets only this will remove that old and lame PvP tactic. lofty29 : "An exploit is something that cannot be avoided. This can be avoided, quite easily" - not easily. The player doesnt get a candidate warning once hes in gang so I think you certainly found a newer way to grief/gank - shame on you "Uhhhm. I've been doing this for well over 5 months. It isnt new" -yup and im still suprised that some accept a gang invite from you - wait, they didnt you used a scam. unfortunatly this tactic has had bad side affects, still makes me laugh, but hopefuly CCP wont see the funny side and blast this tactic out the sky.
Daka Daka	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:10:00 - [73] Errr this may be a silly suggestion but can you not just leave the gang? Dak
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:11:00 - [74] Originally by: Daka Daka Errr this may be a silly suggestion but can you not just leave the gang? Dak well, you have to see them and be able to leave (which also requires that you haven't dock/undocked/jumped within 30seconds) and leave before they get a single shot in, which, unless you are religiously watching that gang chat, is not going to happen, and even then, probably won't. Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
SurfinSeaOtter	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:19:00 - [75] Or here's a way to avoid it... dont gang up with peopel outside your corp unless they allies
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:22:00 - [76] Originally by: SurfinSeaOtter Or here's a way to avoid it... dont gang up with peopel outside your corp unless they allies CCP are going to take a while to fix this and it hasnt been declared an exploit and even then petitions are so far behind no one would get any response anywya, so i do encourage everyone to use this tactic even if to teach this lame noob corpers to get their buts into a player corp and or not to accept gang invites from peeps they dont trust
Vandervecken Smith Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:26:00 - [77] Put very simply: You get a warning that a member of the gang you are joining can make you a war target. You should therefore get a warning whenever a member joins your gang that makes you a target. Also, what is the rationale for limiting gang changes if you've jumped/docked/undocked recently?
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:30:00 - [78] The noob that invites you waits till you are near him, then he scrambles you and invites the others. This is bypassing the warning and the part that is the exploit. Ship lovers click here
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:35:00 - [79] Originally by: Hellspawn01 The noob that invites you waits till you are near him, then he scrambles you and invites the others. This is bypassing the warning and the part that is the exploit. If a senior GM says that it isn't ,it isn't .Maybe people could try not to gang with guys that they don't know about? And you say this newbie is your friend?Man then teach him not to accept gangs from everybody, i teach my friends that thing on their first day on eve. This tactic is some funny thing
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:36:00 - [80] Since its so easy to do, and affects a core mechanic of the game (i.e. if you allow its use, gangs in empire are effectively a gamble whether you get ganked or not), I would classify it as an exploit if I were CCP. Fortunately I don't live in Empire, so your chance of ever catching me with this little 'tactic' are just about 0.
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:43:00 - [81] Originally by: Malachon Draco Since its so easy to do, and affects a core mechanic of the game (i.e. if you allow its use, gangs in empire are effectively a gamble whether you get ganked or not), I would classify it as an exploit if I were CCP. Fortunately I don't live in Empire, so your chance of ever catching me with this little 'tactic' are just about 0. God forbid that ,they could actually don't accept gang invite ?
Broglo	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:45:00 - [82] Is it griefing, hell yeah. BUT, a pirate is, by definition, a griefer. This what a pirate does. Finds an easy target and takes them out. They use deception, they cheat and they take advantage of every opportunity possible. This is why I think EVE is so neat. It is probably one of the few MMORPG's that really mirror the real world. Is it bad for newbs (i.e. no one will gang and help)... yes. BUT, how much help should you expect in a untamed wilderness of space. IS Loft and his crew a bunch of jerks who trick people, use game dynamics to avoid repercussions for their actions and take advantage of nice people? Yes. But, they are pirates. They are jerks, but I don't recall many history books that cover stories about really nice pirates. In sum, it sucks to be taken advantage of. Many times after getting toasted ona gate camp, or jumped in .4 space, i get a little frustrated. But, then I laugh. I rememebr the first time I got taken for a mission scam. I was a newbie, just got my first million, thought it wa s a big deal, saw a mission for 500k and was like, wow, this is great 50% profit and only two jumps. Grabbed the mission, money went bye bye and the cargo was not to be found. At first, I was very upset, but then I thought, "Hey, this game even allows dyamics for crooks. The only thing I wish is that there were some more dyanmics for getting back at these types of crooks. The only thing I think is wrong, id that lefty as his crew should be losing security rankings. That is the only part about this that I think is an exploit. There must be soem consequnce. I can imagine that they fooled Concord command into thinking it was an alliance war issue, but when the Victim came back to port and told COncord what happened, they could say, "Oh crap, we were duped, make a note in his permanent file." (You know your permanent file will follow you forever .
Norma Stitz	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:47:00 - [83] Just a question: once the noob has scrambled you, is leaving gang whilst he is inviting the gankers a defence? i.e. can those gankers then engage you ?
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:48:00 - [84] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Sergio Ling impossible to evade? now THAT'S bullcrap just dont gang with people you don't know Exactly why it isnt an exploit Honorable tactic, certainly not. Whithin game mechanics, most definatly. Stop whinning, the gang text specifically warns you about this risk when you join, reading 4tw. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:54:00 - [85] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Sergio Ling impossible to evade? now THAT'S bullcrap just dont gang with people you don't know Exactly why it isnt an exploit Honorable tactic, certainly not. Whithin game mechanics, most definatly. Stop whinning, the gang text specifically warns you about this risk when you join, reading 4tw. I clearly stated that there was no warning at first place. Ignorance 4tw. Ship lovers click here
Flitz Farseeker Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:55:00 - [86] If the noob scrambles you, can you then fire on him? It's obviously a setup at that moment and you can at least send the alt home in a pod (or to the clone vats). Quitting the gang (if possible) so that you can get Concord involved would be an even better option
Calprimus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:55:00 - [87] Originally by: Broglo Is it griefing, hell yeah. BUT, a pirate is, by definition, a griefer. This what a pirate does. Finds an easy target and takes them out. They use deception, they cheat and they take advantage of every opportunity possible. This is why I think EVE is so neat. It is probably one of the few MMORPG's that really mirror the real world. Is it bad for newbs (i.e. no one will gang and help)... yes. BUT, how much help should you expect in a untamed wilderness of space. IS Loft and his crew a bunch of jerks who trick people, use game dynamics to avoid repercussions for their actions and take advantage of nice people? Yes. But, they are pirates. They are jerks, but I don't recall many history books that cover stories about really nice pirates. In sum, it sucks to be taken advantage of. Many times after getting toasted ona gate camp, or jumped in .4 space, i get a little frustrated. But, then I laugh. I rememebr the first time I got taken for a mission scam. I was a newbie, just got my first million, thought it wa s a big deal, saw a mission for 500k and was like, wow, this is great 50% profit and only two jumps. Grabbed the mission, money went bye bye and the cargo was not to be found. At first, I was very upset, but then I thought, "Hey, this game even allows dyamics for crooks. The only thing I wish is that there were some more dyanmics for getting back at these types of crooks. The only thing I think is wrong, id that lefty as his crew should be losing security rankings. That is the only part about this that I think is an exploit. There must be soem consequnce. I can imagine that they fooled Concord command into thinking it was an alliance war issue, but when the Victim came back to port and told COncord what happened, they could say, "Oh crap, we were duped, make a note in his permanent file." (You know your permanent file will follow you forever . Agree. a) That tactic should be reviewed by the devs. b) If allowed, consequences must hit the jer.... ahem the pirates. c) No team up to unkonw players. That means, no potential way to make new friends, to help new players (the real ones) in enjoing this game. Go CCP, go.... By the way, and this is important clarification, real pirates were living outside the law, protected by noone except themselves, continuosly hunted by, well, almost anyone. Do us a favour, don't call yourself a pirate and do the "yarr" thing. You just a scammer, a lame one.....
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.09.04 09:57:00 - [88] No-one in this gang is currently in a corporation that is at war. However, be aware that if a fellow gang member's corporation does go to war with other corporations you become vulnerable to attack by members of those corporations. You do not have the right to attack those parties unless they attack you first. That seems to make it pretty clear. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:02:00 - [89] Originally by: Pesadel0 Originally by: Malachon Draco Since its so easy to do, and affects a core mechanic of the game (i.e. if you allow its use, gangs in empire are effectively a gamble whether you get ganked or not), I would classify it as an exploit if I were CCP. Fortunately I don't live in Empire, so your chance of ever catching me with this little 'tactic' are just about 0. God forbid that ,they could actually don't accept gang invite ? Yes an option, but that means that gang invites in Empire, outside of your own corp can't be used anymore? Personally, I would consider the consequence of accepting this such a big blow to a core element of gameplay (ganging with people) that I would not allow it if I were CCP.
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:07:00 - [90] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix No-one in this gang is currently in a corporation that is at war. However, be aware that if a fellow gang member's corporation does go to war with other corporations you become vulnerable to attack by members of those corporations. You do not have the right to attack those parties unless they attack you first. That seems to make it pretty clear. Apparently you dont really get it. THERE WAS NO WARNING ABOUT AN ONGOING WAR WHEN HE GOT INVITED. Ship lovers click here
Tito Taneki Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:17:00 - [91] Edited by: Tito Taneki on 04/09/2006 10:20:45 Edited by: Tito Taneki on 04/09/2006 10:20:19 Edited by: Tito Taneki on 04/09/2006 10:18:56 Originally by: Broglo Is it griefing, hell yeah. BUT, a pirate is, by definition, a griefer. This what a pirate does. Finds an easy target and takes them out. They use deception, they cheat and they take advantage of every opportunity possible. This is why I think EVE is so neat. Not really. The term 'pirate' in eve makes only sense, if you interpret its meaning in a role-play way. Using tricks to circumvent the game mechanics isn't a 'pirate' technique, it's a sort of meta-gaming. Let me repeat, 'pirate' and 'piracy' describe roles and activities that are consistent within this universe aka fit, because of the background story. 'Griefing', 'ganking' etc. is out-of-game vocabular that makes no sense within this virtual world. So 'piracy' and 'griefing' aren't the same. To make it clear, Concord knows Pirates, but doesn't know 'Griefers'. Ok, should be clear, what I mean, except someone doesn't understand the meaning of the words MMORPG, virtual world or simulation. ( Maybe ask Verone about what I mean, think he knows it. ) --------- Plutoinum
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:26:00 - [92] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Vicious Phoenix No-one in this gang is currently in a corporation that is at war. However, be aware that if a fellow gang member's corporation does go to war with other corporations you become vulnerable to attack by members of those corporations. You do not have the right to attack those parties unless they attack you first. That seems to make it pretty clear. Apparently you dont really get it. THERE WAS NO WARNING ABOUT AN ONGOING WAR WHEN HE GOT INVITED. Lets make this simple. It said if anyone in his gang got involved in a war he'd be vulnerable, how much simpler can it get? Also, caps lock 4tl, it just makes you look childish. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Tito Taneki Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:34:00 - [93] Edited by: Tito Taneki on 04/09/2006 10:36:18 Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Lets make this simple. It said if anyone in his gang got involved in a war he'd be vulnerable, how much simpler can it get? Also, caps lock 4tl, it just makes you look childish. Read the post, please: 1) You are in war with noone. 2) You invite a victim. -> Victim gets no message. 3) You invite another alt/friend, who is at war. -> Victim gets no message about this war, but becomes war target. 4) The one, who's at war with your alt/friend/whatever, kills the victim. No warning. --------- Plutoinum
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:34:00 - [94] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Vicious Phoenix No-one in this gang is currently in a corporation that is at war. However, be aware that if a fellow gang member's corporation does go to war with other corporations you become vulnerable to attack by members of those corporations. You do not have the right to attack those parties unless they attack you first. That seems to make it pretty clear. Apparently you dont really get it. THERE WAS NO WARNING ABOUT AN ONGOING WAR WHEN HE GOT INVITED. Lets make this simple. It said if anyone in his gang got involved in a war he'd be vulnerable, how much simpler can it get? Also, caps lock 4tl, it just makes you look childish. Who would guess that a noob is a trick alt in disuise?? Who knows who is at war with someone AFTER you joined a gang?? Who would guess that said noob would scramble you and invite some ppl that can legally shoot you?? Ship lovers click here
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:37:00 - [95] Originally by: Tito Taneki Edited by: Tito Taneki on 04/09/2006 10:34:51 Edited by: Tito Taneki on 04/09/2006 10:34:26 Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Lets make this simple. It said if anyone in his gang got involved in a war he'd be vulnerable, how much simpler can it get? Also, caps lock 4tl, it just makes you look childish. Read the post, please: 1) You are in war with noone. 2) You invite a victim. -> Victim gets no message. 3) You invite another alt, who is at war. -> Victim gets no message about this war, but becomes war target 4) The one who's at war with your alt/friend whatever kills the victim. No warning. Wrong. You get the message I posted earlier. Quote: No-one in this gang is currently in a corporation that is at war. However, be aware that if a fellow gang member's corporation does go to war with other corporations you become vulnerable to attack by members of those corporations. You do not have the right to attack those parties unless they attack you first. If you do the reading thing you'll see the warning. Reading 4tw. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:39:00 - [96] Who had this bright idea about those gang mechanics in the first place and what were the reasons for it? Ship lovers click here
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:41:00 - [97] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: Tito Taneki Edited by: Tito Taneki on 04/09/2006 10:34:51 Edited by: Tito Taneki on 04/09/2006 10:34:26 Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Lets make this simple. It said if anyone in his gang got involved in a war he'd be vulnerable, how much simpler can it get? Also, caps lock 4tl, it just makes you look childish. Read the post, please: 1) You are in war with noone. 2) You invite a victim. -> Victim gets no message. 3) You invite another alt, who is at war. -> Victim gets no message about this war, but becomes war target 4) The one who's at war with your alt/friend whatever kills the victim. No warning. Wrong. You get the message I posted earlier. Quote: No-one in this gang is currently in a corporation that is at war. However, be aware that if a fellow gang member's corporation does go to war with other corporations you become vulnerable to attack by members of those corporations. You do not have the right to attack those parties unless they attack you first. If you do the reading thing you'll see the warning. Reading 4tw. This warning is ok. Victim think no war, fine. why not? The part that 2 parties get invited into the same gang that are at war with eachother is the exploitation. Ship lovers click here
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:42:00 - [98] I believe it was made this way because it was being exploited the other way. Gang forms with 1 person at war. War peeps attack that one person. Whole gang can now shoot war peeps. Oh crap, war peeps didn't know all those people there could shoot them. It was rather bad for a time as I recall. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Rochel Hakiri Digital Horizons Unbrella Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:46:00 - [99] if this happends to me, i would accept the gang invite. (knowing of this tactic) and when i saw them warping to me and starting to shoot I quickly leave the gang and watch them being concorked, grabbing their loot and started to smack in local.. never tried this, but it should be possible (?)
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:50:00 - [100] Originally by: Rochel Hakiri if this happends to me, i would accept the gang invite. (knowing of this tactic) and when i saw them warping to me and starting to shoot I quickly leave the gang and watch them being concorked, grabbing their loot and started to smack in local.. never tried this, but it should be possible (?) theres 30 seconds between entering the gang and being able to leave if u can tank em for 30 seconds then i belive u can leave and might be able to get em concorded. Its a valid counter tactic if u want to try it head to jita or oursuleart where (combined) is the character using this shall we say loophole that happens to be legal ingame atm Its a bit like the afk macro miners being banned but those at the keybaord able to respond to GM convo requests that are left because it cant be proved conclusivley despite them being logged in 23-7 for the past month non stop that they are using macro bots
Tito Taneki Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:55:00 - [101] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix If you do the reading thing you'll see the warning. Reading 4tw. Ok, you are right. But the point is that the victim gets aggressed, before he has time to check, who got invited. This mechanics is then abused to setup a trap that makes use of a weakness of the gang-and-warfare rules. It's similar to login-logout-tactics, which also abuse a weakness or a hole that can't be eliminated easily. So the only work-around is to NEVER except gangs from gang-leaders you don't know. Simple. Fair enough, but bad for newbies. Personally it doesn't hurt me, because I usually only accept gang from people I know, because there is no reason for an older player in 0.0 to gang with 'randoms'. --------- Plutoinum
Kerc Kasha Caldari Fallout Industries	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:56:00 - [102] You the man lofty!
D'onryu Shoqui Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:56:00 - [103] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 04/09/2006 00:51:35 maybe ccp dont call it an exploit but its still lame and pathetic, anyway wheres the fun in killing someone who posses no challenge? Uhm. Ok, so a t2 cruise, gistii fitted rattlesnake is no challenge now. Wow, maybe I should start soloing dreads so I dont get called a n00b are you backwards? a PVE setup has no chance againt a PVP setup EVER!
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:57:00 - [104] Originally by: Tito Taneki Originally by: Vicious Phoenix If you do the reading thing you'll see the warning. Reading 4tw. Ok, you are right. But the point is that the victim gets aggressed, before he has time to check, who got invited. This mechanics is then abused to setup a trap that makes use of a weakness of the gang-and-warfare rules. It's similar to login-logout-tactics, which also abuse a weakness or a hole that can't be eliminated easily. So the only work-around is to NEVER except gangs from gang-leaders you don't know. Simple. Fair enough, but bad for newbies. Personally it doesn't hurt me, because I usually only accept gang from people I know, because there is no reason for an older player in 0.0 to gang with 'randoms'. newbies more readily going itno player corps when invited instead of staying put - also how does this relate to factional warfare - that will eb a big point to consider something needs fixing tho
Admiral Pieg Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.04 10:59:00 - [105] Edited by: Admiral Pieg on 04/09/2006 10:59:13 heh, good thing i caught this thread. Im never going to gang with anyone ever again.. Although its within the game mechanics it doesnt exactly encourage social gaming so i really do think its one "feature" ccp could remove without too many people missing it. ______________ Pod from above.
Pestillence Revelations Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:03:00 - [106] Originally by: Rochel Hakiri if this happends to me, i would accept the gang invite. (knowing of this tactic) and when i saw them warping to me and starting to shoot I quickly leave the gang and watch them being concorked, grabbing their loot and started to smack in local.. never tried this, but it should be possible (?) Read the thread and revise your opinion?
Sjoor S.A.S	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:07:00 - [107] Easy to avoid.. don't gang with unknown people or just make sure u are the gangleader. Invite the one that needs help and wait 15 minutes to clear all the previous aggro. Than u can do safely whatever u wanna do. Easy right.. don't ask for game mechanic change when u are too lazy to use the same game mechanics to be sure u can't get attacked like the op says. ---- Insta solution Remove aggro reset on jump, remove secure can concord flagging
Tammarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:10:00 - [108] So its says... in fine print... that you might get a target and you must be attacked first, okey. Thing is it hurts the new guys who dont know that it is possible, it might even hurt old players who dont know its possible, then possibly going on to the forums and realizing people know about this Exploit and use it for their own amusement owning up the lazy nooblets. If you do not know something is possible you will not expect it, people nowdays know about war gang invites early on but this one seem to be more in the shadows while also meaning you can trust no one, not even in your noob corp :) And the laywers/wordbenders and "CCP says its not an exploit" people should realy start thinking about what they want to do in society. I guess me being hunted in my shiny bs out in zz and managing to gatejump, with them warping in towards gate as I shift system, staying cloaked debating quickly with myself if I should just log out, clearly its not an exploit as said by ccp so I should go ahead and use it right? No I didnt because I felt it was not the right thing to do, they locked in on me, spent time to catch me fairly. So I choose not to be lame, hope you do to someday.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:14:00 - [109] Ok, I admit that I may have found a >widdle tiny bit< of an exploit. Yes, CCP can change it if they wish, and I will cease use of it if it is declared an exploit. I play eve for fun, not to get banned. I have GM approval that what I am doing, or part of it, is within the game mechanics, but I have applied a bit of intellect to make it nigh-on untraceable until you're being shot. Put it this way - there is about 10 seconds between you warping in on my safespot, and me / my corpmate begining to shoot. LEAVE-THE-GANG. As soon as you do, we will either not shoot, or be concordokkened. It's simple, quite a few people have done it. What I think CCP should do, however, is add a warning when another member joins a gang, saying he / she is at war. UNLESS they are within your corp / alliance or have +5 or higher standings to you, so that alliances do not get spammed. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:15:00 - [110] Originally by: Tammarr So its says... in fine print... that you might get a target and you must be attacked first, okey. Size 12 is hardly fine print --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Galadiin Venyaa	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:20:00 - [111] Originally by: lofty29 An exploit is something that cannot be avoided. This can be avoided, quite easily. Sorry, but that's not the definition of an exploit. An exploit by definition is the use of ingame mechanics to obtain a result, other than that intended by the devs, for own gain.
Tammarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:22:00 - [112] Originally by: lofty29 . What I think CCP should do, however, is add a warning when another member joins a gang, saying he / she is at war. UNLESS they are within your corp / alliance or have +5 or higher standings to you, so that alliances do not get spammed. Yes that would be the best soloution for this and still get the lazy/stupid ones ;) I get angry at times because I have some... decency in me, read the part about logout or not, and reading about people using things that are well, if not wrong, slighly immoral from were I'am standing :) Basicly I would have been a religous zealot if I was raised to faith
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:27:00 - [113] Originally by: Galadiin Venyaa Originally by: lofty29 An exploit is something that cannot be avoided. This can be avoided, quite easily. Sorry, but that's not the definition of an exploit. An exploit by definition is the use of ingame mechanics to obtain a result, other than that intended by the devs, for own gain. at this time the devs have cleared its use until that is declared invalid then yeah i think he should be able to use it and as many copy cats as possible might speed CCPs reaction up same thing as soon as its declared an exploit then ill stop informing ppl about it
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:27:00 - [114] Originally by: Galadiin Venyaa Originally by: lofty29 An exploit is something that cannot be avoided. This can be avoided, quite easily. Sorry, but that's not the definition of an exploit. An exploit by definition is the use of ingame mechanics to obtain a result, other than that intended by the devs, for own gain. And buy that definition, as said before, Gate sniping, Jetcan mining, hell even putting a can at a gate with your corps info on it, is an exploit . Using a battleship to mine, or a dread / carrier, should be a bannable offence now? Poor Chribba --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Caztra Tor	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:28:00 - [115] Here it is! The answer you have been looking for! Don't gang with anyone you don't know. Ever . . .
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:29:00 - [116] Edited by: lofty29 on 04/09/2006 11:28:58 Originally by: Miss Overlord Originally by: Galadiin Venyaa Originally by: lofty29 An exploit is something that cannot be avoided. This can be avoided, quite easily. Sorry, but that's not the definition of an exploit. An exploit by definition is the use of ingame mechanics to obtain a result, other than that intended by the devs, for own gain. at this time the devs have cleared its use until that is declared invalid then yeah i think he should be able to use it and as many copy cats as possible might speed CCPs reaction up same thing as soon as its declared an exploit then ill stop informing ppl about it Noo, not copycats There's only 1 other guy (cept for Voogru ) who uses this afaik, and that's because I sold him the info how to for 25m and a brutix --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Talen Kross Dragon's Rage Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:30:00 - [117] Well, I see it as creative use of the gang system to bypass a warning. It is in the game, they didn't modify the client to do it. It is not a bug, as there is no "Your gang leader is inviting someone in a war to your gang..." warning. Until CCP introduce such a warning I say it is a valid tactic. Lofty is no angel for using it, but he/she never claimed to be. He outsmarts people, that is what piracy is all about. ------------------------- Tuxford: "Besides I've got the nerfbat now, tremble in fear" Eviltwin I: "...or keep em scrambled in a belt while you goto dinner for 15min"
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:31:00 - [118] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Galadiin Venyaa Originally by: lofty29 An exploit is something that cannot be avoided. This can be avoided, quite easily. Sorry, but that's not the definition of an exploit. An exploit by definition is the use of ingame mechanics to obtain a result, other than that intended by the devs, for own gain. And buy that definition, as said before, Gate sniping, Jetcan mining, hell even putting a can at a gate with your corps info on it, is an exploit . Using a battleship to mine, or a dread / carrier, should be a bannable offence now? Poor Chribba Originally by: CCP's Definition # 12.1 What is an exploit? The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit. Though every effort is made to avoid glitches that enable exploits to be used, they are occasionally discovered. Players have the responsibility of understanding how the game works and keeping themselves informed about changes to the game in order to comprehend what is deemed as an exploit. Those who are charged with employing the use of exploits will be reprimanded, which may include temporary suspension or a permanent ban of the account. Professing ignorance that you didnÆt know you were using an exploit will not prevent the enforcement of this rule. # 12.2 How does CCP fix exploits? Exploits are investigated on a prioritized, case-by-case basis. As received, information pertaining to exploits is entered into a queue. Programmers then ascertain the level of urgency in addressing them and fix them accordingly. # 12.3 What are the punishments for using an exploit? We reserve the right to review cases involving exploits on an individual basis and take action as we deem necessary. For minor offenses, a formal warning may be issued. A second warning or a more serious offense may result in the suspension of the playersÆ account. Very serious violations or repeated offenses will lead to a permanent ban. We reserve the right in all cases to determine the seriousness of the offense. We also reserve the right to delete characters and/or items that were gained through the use of exploits. Note that any attempts at hacking the game or the game servers will be dealt with severely, up to û and including û legal action. # 12.14 How do I know whatÆs legal or illegal in the game? Using the game mechanics in any way to achieve an unintended game behavior is exploiting. Stay abreast of known issues and changes to the game. Employing the use of an unauthorized third party program is always illegal. Those who create, distribute, advocate or use unauthorized third party programs will be permanently banned from EVE. # 12.5 Do you consider it cheating if someone uses a known bug? Yes. The circumstances are irrelevant. All cases where a player manipulates the system or the game world, knowingly or otherwise, will be treated as exploiting and dealt with harshly. Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:37:00 - [119] Originally by: Verus Potestas Extract from logs Yes, it does say that, but I have written confirmation from a GM that I am allowed to continue to use this method. I received it back in about april, after being petitioned for the first time. I was warned, and when I asked what the problem was with using it, the warning was retracted and I was allowed to use this method. Once CCP declares it an exploit, I will cease use. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Galadiin Venyaa	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:40:00 - [120] Edited by: Galadiin Venyaa on 04/09/2006 11:46:05 Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Galadiin Venyaa Originally by: lofty29 An exploit is something that cannot be avoided. This can be avoided, quite easily. Sorry, but that's not the definition of an exploit. An exploit by definition is the use of ingame mechanics to obtain a result, other than that intended by the devs, for own gain. And by* that definition, as said before, Gate sniping, Jetcan mining, hell even putting a can at a gate with your corps info on it, is an exploit . Using a battleship to mine, or a dread / carrier, should be a bannable offence now? Poor Chribba I do not wish to get involved in a childish battle of wit with you, since you are obviously unarmed. I was merely correcting your definition which is totally wrong by any standard. Feel free to google Exploit Definition to explore other uses of the word. Use of battle ships for the purpose of mining was foreseen by the devs hence things like the enormous cpu bonusses on mining barges (relating to strip mining modules) etc, to avoid them being used on BS's. The same can be said for other examples you listed. And also kindly note that I did not outright condemn your tactic, distasteful and an obvious exploit as it is.
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:41:00 - [121] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Verus Potestas Extract from logs Yes, it does say that, but I have written confirmation from a GM that I am allowed to continue to use this method. I received it back in about april, after being petitioned for the first time. I was warned, and when I asked what the problem was with using it, the warning was retracted and I was allowed to use this method. Once CCP declares it an exploit, I will cease use. well it seems now that u advertised it there has been at least 6 different busy systems today where i have been ganged of course ive ignored them and blocked them but until we have a dev stand up in the forums apply a sticky and say its an exploit until we are working on a fix then it remains vaiale - should work to empty some of those lagged out 200 ppl in local systems tho
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:44:00 - [122] COLOURED TEXT MAKES THE BABY JESUS CRY, K? Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
DDaisy VentureCorp CORE.	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:45:00 - [123] TBH I could not be bothered reading this thread in its entirety as I was beginning to lose the will to live. My understanding of the gang invite process is that is does not include an option to leave the gang if someone joins who is at war with another member of the gang. This is where it QUITE CLEARLY is an exploit as the person who has innocently accepted the gang invite to HELP someone in the way that CCP SELLS this game as a COMMUNITY DRIVEN game, is then totally unaware that further gang members have joined who are in fact at war with each other. In order to counter this the original invitee would have to have the corporation section open all the time to observe the current wars and watch for members being invited. Hardly the way the game was intended to be played so therefore an exploit?
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:49:00 - [124] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Galadiin Venyaa Originally by: lofty29 An exploit is something that cannot be avoided. This can be avoided, quite easily. Sorry, but that's not the definition of an exploit. An exploit by definition is the use of ingame mechanics to obtain a result, other than that intended by the devs, for own gain. And buy that definition, as said before, Gate sniping, Jetcan mining, hell even putting a can at a gate with your corps info on it, is an exploit . Using a battleship to mine, or a dread / carrier, should be a bannable offence now? Poor Chribba Originally by: CCP's Definition # 12.1 What is an exploit? The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit. Though every effort is made to avoid glitches that enable exploits to be used, they are occasionally discovered. Players have the responsibility of understanding how the game works and keeping themselves informed about changes to the game in order to comprehend what is deemed as an exploit. Those who are charged with employing the use of exploits will be reprimanded, which may include temporary suspension or a permanent ban of the account. Professing ignorance that you didnÆt know you were using an exploit will not prevent the enforcement of this rule. # 12.2 How does CCP fix exploits? Exploits are investigated on a prioritized, case-by-case basis. As received, information pertaining to exploits is entered into a queue. Programmers then ascertain the level of urgency in addressing them and fix them accordingly. # 12.3 What are the punishments for using an exploit? We reserve the right to review cases involving exploits on an individual basis and take action as we deem necessary. For minor offenses, a formal warning may be issued. A second warning or a more serious offense may result in the suspension of the playersÆ account. Very serious violations or repeated offenses will lead to a permanent ban. We reserve the right in all cases to determine the seriousness of the offense. We also reserve the right to delete characters and/or items that were gained through the use of exploits. Note that any attempts at hacking the game or the game servers will be dealt with severely, up to û and including û legal action. # 12.14 How do I know whatÆs legal or illegal in the game? Using the game mechanics in any way to achieve an unintended game behavior is exploiting. Stay abreast of known issues and changes to the game. Employing the use of an unauthorized third party program is always illegal. Those who create, distribute, advocate or use unauthorized third party programs will be permanently banned from EVE. # 12.5 Do you consider it cheating if someone uses a known bug? Yes. The circumstances are irrelevant. All cases where a player manipulates the system or the game world, knowingly or otherwise, will be treated as exploiting and dealt with harshly. By the above I would say the rules are clear that its an exploit even if the Devs/GMs say different. The question now is: Who is right here? Ship lovers click here
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:53:00 - [125] Originally by: Sjoor Easy to avoid.. don't gang with unknown people or just make sure u are the gangleader. Invite the one that needs help and wait 15 minutes to clear all the previous aggro. Than u can do safely whatever u wanna do. Easy right.. don't ask for game mechanic change when u are too lazy to use the same game mechanics to be sure u can't get attacked like the op says. QFT I was about to say the same thing. IF a noob wants help,and you want to help, you initiate the gang, and warp to him in his mission. YOU have gang leadership, and YOU control who can and can't join. Akkarin Linkage Do not press this button <3 - Immy
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 11:54:00 - [126] Originally by: Akkarin Pagan Originally by: Sjoor Easy to avoid.. don't gang with unknown people or just make sure u are the gangleader. Invite the one that needs help and wait 15 minutes to clear all the previous aggro. Than u can do safely whatever u wanna do. Easy right.. don't ask for game mechanic change when u are too lazy to use the same game mechanics to be sure u can't get attacked like the op says. QFT I was about to say the same thing. IF a noob wants help,and you want to help, you initiate the gang, and warp to him in his mission. YOU have gang leadership, and YOU control who can and can't join. Akkarin Too true. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Hori To Minmatar Rifter Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:07:00 - [127] Edited by: Hori To on 04/09/2006 12:07:52 A good solution to people that want to help new players by ganging with them is to not use their t2/faction fitted rattlesnake, but rather an ordinary disposable ship. I'm wondering though, say I fall for loftys evil trick, can he pop my pod safely? this would be the lazy solution. As opposed to the one above.
Mastin Dragonfly Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:11:00 - [128] Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 04/09/2006 12:11:55 I just wonder why ppl that are at war with eachother are allowed to gang up in the first place. Only use for that that I can see is for tactics like this.
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:20:00 - [129] Originally by: Akkarin Pagan Originally by: Sjoor Easy to avoid.. don't gang with unknown people or just make sure u are the gangleader. Invite the one that needs help and wait 15 minutes to clear all the previous aggro. Than u can do safely whatever u wanna do. Easy right.. don't ask for game mechanic change when u are too lazy to use the same game mechanics to be sure u can't get attacked like the op says. QFT I was about to say the same thing. IF a noob wants help,and you want to help, you initiate the gang, and warp to him in his mission. YOU have gang leadership, and YOU control who can and can't join. Akkarin Indeed this is like beating on a dead horse..
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:25:00 - [130] Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 04/09/2006 12:11:55 I just wonder why ppl that are at war with eachother are allowed to gang up in the first place. Only use for that that I can see is for tactics like this. Ask the dev that came up with this "brilliant" idea. Ship lovers click here
Rochel Hakiri Digital Horizons Unbrella Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:27:00 - [131] Originally by: Pestillence Originally by: Rochel Hakiri if this happends to me, i would accept the gang invite. (knowing of this tactic) and when i saw them warping to me and starting to shoot I quickly leave the gang and watch them being concorked, grabbing their loot and started to smack in local.. never tried this, but it should be possible (?) Read the thread and revise your opinion? Aye you're right, so im not allowed to get shoot or dock, change systems, ah well then im gonna get lofty and co on my blocked list. First one evar! Your the man Loser erm Lofty i mean
Rochel Hakiri Digital Horizons Unbrella Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:32:00 - [132] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 04/09/2006 12:11:55 I just wonder why ppl that are at war with eachother are allowed to gang up in the first place. Only use for that that I can see is for tactics like this. Ask the dev that came up with this "brilliant" idea. QFT
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:39:00 - [133] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Verus Potestas Extract from logs Yes, it does say that, but I have written confirmation from a GM that I am allowed to continue to use this method. I received it back in about april, after being petitioned for the first time. I was warned, and when I asked what the problem was with using it, the warning was retracted and I was allowed to use this method. Once CCP declares it an exploit, I will cease use. Its not very clear lofty but your ok was about doing it IF the warning was displayed or they had set it not to be shown. Now you are/have found a way to stop the warning from displaying no matter how the player has the warning display option configured? If thats the case you hiding behind "i checked 5 months ago" defense does not apply. The only way I can see that you got the ok was because the warning message is displayed unless the player has stopped it from appearing, now you seem to have ound a way to stop it from appearing even IF the player in question has not stopped it from appraering or would not ignore it, you are skating on VERY THIN ICE... SO the only question is did you include this variation in the question you asked the GMs 5 months ago? Because if you did not all the "I have GM clarfication" defense you are throwing out are nothing but bull****. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Feng Schui	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:44:00 - [134] aaah, good ole lofty29. the moron was trying to bait people to come out with ravens to kill a titan With martial valor, if one becomes like a revengeful ghost and shows great determination, though his head is cut off, he should not die.
Smagd Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.09.04 12:53:00 - [135] Originally by: lofty29 Ok, I admit that I may have found a >widdle tiny bit< of an exploit. Yes, CCP can change it if they wish, and I will cease use of it if it is declared an exploit. I play eve for fun, not to get banned. I have GM approval that what I am doing, or part of it, is within the game mechanics, but I have applied a bit of intellect to make it nigh-on untraceable until you're being shot. Put it this way - there is about 10 seconds between you warping in on my safespot, and me / my corpmate begining to shoot. LEAVE-THE-GANG. As soon as you do, we will either not shoot, or be concordokkened. It's simple, quite a few people have done it. What I think CCP should do, however, is add a warning when another member joins a gang, saying he / she is at war. UNLESS they are within your corp / alliance or have +5 or higher standings to you, so that alliances do not get spammed. Thanks for laying the cards on the table. Good to know leaving the gang works. Originally by: Sjoor Easy to avoid.. don't gang with unknown people or just make sure u are the gangleader. Invite the one that needs help and wait 15 minutes to clear all the previous aggro. Also very good point. And last point, uh, I try to use the right tools for the job, and flying into a noob mission in a T2 battleship just must be wrong. Fly far. -- When I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. Thukkers do
DDaisy VentureCorp CORE.	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:07:00 - [136] Naturally demanding to be the gang leader is the most logical avoidance of this scenario but that still doesn't change the fact that when new people who are invited to the gang and are at war with each other, there is no warning message to current members of the gang who are given the immediate option to leave said gang. Using this "over-sight" to achieve one's piracy/griefing goals is IMO an exploit. Life in 0.0 is so much simpler. Empire gives me a raging headache can't wait to get out of that godforsaken place.
DrAtomic Polytope Ghosts of Retribution	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:35:00 - [137] It's lame, pathetic, griefing, subscription killing, killing the community due to removing gang play, sadly within current game mechanics and thus not deemed an exploit by CCP. One thing it certainly isn't is piracy. A true pirate ransoms people outside of a gang. If you're doing this you're nothing more then a sad skilless noob griefing pirate wannabee who likes to ruin peoples gaming experience. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:36:00 - [138] Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Wrong. You get the message I posted earlier. Quote: No-one in this gang is currently in a corporation that is at war. However, be aware that if a fellow gang member's corporation does go to war with other corporations you become vulnerable to attack by members of those corporations. You do not have the right to attack those parties unless they attack you first. If you do the reading thing you'll see the warning. Reading 4tw. Ahem. Lofty's tactic is to have people already at war join the gang. The warning says "...does go to war..." Nobody is going to war during the gank. People are already at war. Reading 4tw, anyone? Admittedly it's a small semantic difference, but the warning should mention that if someone who is at war joins the gang at a later time you will be at risk and you will not be notified when they join.
DrAtomic Polytope Ghosts of Retribution	Posted - 2006.09.04 13:39:00 - [139] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Akkarin Pagan Originally by: Sjoor Easy to avoid.. don't gang with unknown people or just make sure u are the gangleader. Invite the one that needs help and wait 15 minutes to clear all the previous aggro. Than u can do safely whatever u wanna do. Easy right.. don't ask for game mechanic change when u are too lazy to use the same game mechanics to be sure u can't get attacked like the op says. QFT I was about to say the same thing. IF a noob wants help,and you want to help, you initiate the gang, and warp to him in his mission. YOU have gang leadership, and YOU control who can and can't join. Akkarin Too true. And what exactly stops me from doing the exact same thing to the noob? ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:40:00 - [140] Originally by: Feng Schui aaah, good ole lofty29. the moron was trying to bait people to come out with ravens to kill a titan Uhm, refresh my memory please --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:49:00 - [141] ok to make this easy even for the DEE DEE DEE groups. use the "tactic' yourself, go out in masses and make the "tactic" a sore spot for the GM's as their Q is flooded with complaints that they just had an exploit used on them... Either make them take notice, so an official response is declared and signed, or they will just be content to be flooded with a huge Q over the 'tactic' FYI; The forums will be ignored, if 5 pages over the subject haven't made it clear to you all. Do the nasty dead like those that are already doing it, and make it aan issue they HAVE to notice. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Diggles Darkreign Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:54:00 - [142] the morale of the story is, "dont help noobs....ever!"
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 14:59:00 - [143] Oh, and hellspawn, I just read your post again. You say that the noob scrambled your friend. Thats not true. I did. You say that 3 other pilots warped in? Nope, just me, and I was sitting where he warped to. He smartbombed my alt and concord got him . Concord always leave the best loot. Anyhow, Id just like to clarify that THE NEWBIE DIDNT AGRESS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Selective Memory	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:02:00 - [144] If a 'noob' claims he needs help and invites someone who wants to help him into his gang, then waits until the warring friends he has are comming out of warp right on top of them to nvite them, the victim gets no warning. An unganged covert ops ship could make the warp possible, or simply make an appropiate bookmark beforehand. If a noob really does need help and a vetren (or whatever) decides to be the one to create the gang, the vetren and HIS warring friends can gank the noob. So you see, the gang system is slightly broken. I'm fine with how the mechanics of it work, but there needs to be a new pop up (with a skull and crossbones and text explaining） for when warring members join any gang you are in. Maybe even a 30 second "session change" type timer that gang members must wait before shooting eachother. This timer would not be damaging since not many people form gangs just so they can suddenly shoot one of the members... or some other simple yet effective method could be introduced so that there is proper warning. Not prevention, just warning. A lot of you guys said this "tactic" is ok because technically (if you already know it exists) there are ways you can avoid it. This does not mean it is OK. To be exposed to empire gankage of this scale a player should need to knowingly enter a dangerous situation, make a mistake which offends common sense, or fall for some sort of greedy too-good-to-be-true trick. A player joining the gang of a new guy who needs help with Worlds Collide does not fall under any of those catagories. The whole thing just smells wrong. A player who posted earlier summed it up very well: "Look, the reason it's an exploit is because the "a member of this gang is at war with blahblahblah" message only pops up if they're already in the gang when you join. The exploit is that you're evading the intended warning by bringing the warring player in AFTER the victim. The intent of the game mechanics is clear, a player is always given a warning if their gang members could be involved in concord-approved combat. The fact that you don't get one if the invites are sent in the wrong order is a loophole in the rules, and one that should be fixed. If the issue was just a player ignoring the warning, then it wouldn't be an exploit at all. Then it would just be Darwin at work again, and some lucky pirates. You saw the warning, you trusted the wrong people, learn from your mistakes. But this isn't the case, the victim never gets the warning message they're supposed to have.ô
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:11:00 - [145] Originally by: Selective Memory If the issue was just a player ignoring the warning, then it wouldn't be an exploit at all. Then it would just be Darwin at work again, and some lucky pirates. You saw the warning, you trusted the wrong people, learn from your mistakes. But this isn't the case, the victim never gets the warning message they're supposed to have.ô There is a warning message in the regular gang invite. "No-one in this gang is currently in a corporation that is at war. However, be aware that if a fellow gang member's corporation does go to war with other corporations you become vulnerable to attack by members of those corporations. You do not have the right to attack those parties unless they attack you first." Duh Read --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Infinity Ziona Feet Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:21:00 - [146] Originally by: lofty29 Ok, I admit that I may have found a >widdle tiny bit< of an exploit. Yes, CCP can change it if they wish, and I will cease use of it if it is declared an exploit. I play eve for fun, not to get banned. You find it fun, as you have admitted above, to use an widdle tiny bit of an exploit to kill people who took the time out of their game play to try to help someone new to the game? What exactly do you find 'fun' about that Lofty? That a bunch of pre-pubes think your cool for being a *****? Technically since you have admitted here in this thread that you yourself consider this an exploit you should be banned or at least warned. Click Me
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:23:00 - [147] To solve this; If asked by a player to assist on a mission, ask him to invite you ONLY when you are immediately ready to go and help him. Accept the invite, and "Warp to" his location. Whilst in warp, leave the gang. You arrive where he is and can assist, but you don't share bounties. Equally, he doesn't have to share bounties with you. And no-one can attack you. If the guy genuinely wants your help, he won't push it. I've done this in my local system and no-one who genuinely wants help seems to mind. All you really lose is any benefits from any gang skills you may have. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Goberth Ludwig eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:31:00 - [148] This why my mom tells me not to accept cookies (and gang invites) from strangers everytime I undock from AZN. - Gob [IXC] Admiral Goberius
Kharriga Caldari The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:32:00 - [149] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: lofty29 Ok, I admit that I may have found a >widdle tiny bit< of an exploit. Yes, CCP can change it if they wish, and I will cease use of it if it is declared an exploit. I play eve for fun, not to get banned. What exactly do you find 'fun' about that Lofty? That a bunch of pre-pubes think your cool for being a ****? He is 12 and feels all evil and cool while doing it? Gets his attention whoring on forums about it? Tbh i wouldnt be surprised if he initiated this whole thread in some way ( ie. its his alt/main opening, he paid someone off, its his friend etc ). However i dont pity the victims. Fly what you can afford to lose. Sht happens.
Turiya Flesharrower Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:33:00 - [150] Go lofty! On a vaguely unrelated note, I believe that a cool forum feature would be the following: If a thread contains the phrase "CCP should" then the player's forum access is revoked for a week after hitting the post button. -----
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:37:00 - [151] Originally by: Kharriga Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: lofty29 Ok, I admit that I may have found a >widdle tiny bit< of an exploit. Yes, CCP can change it if they wish, and I will cease use of it if it is declared an exploit. I play eve for fun, not to get banned. What exactly do you find 'fun' about that Lofty? That a bunch of pre-pubes think your cool for being a ***? He is 12 and feels all evil and cool while doing it? Gets his attention whoring on forums about it? I think he does it for the ISK. --[23] Member-- Originally by:** DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:39:00 - [152] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Kharriga Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: lofty29 Ok, I admit that I may have found a >widdle tiny bit< of an exploit. Yes, CCP can change it if they wish, and I will cease use of it if it is declared an exploit. I play eve for fun, not to get banned. What exactly do you find 'fun' about that Lofty? That a bunch of pre-pubes think your cool for being a ***? He is 12 and feels all evil and cool while doing it? Gets his attention whoring on forums about it? I think he does it for the ISK. Yeah...the isk --------------------------- Originally by:** inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Kharriga Caldari The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:42:00 - [153] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Kharriga Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: lofty29 Ok, I admit that I may have found a >widdle tiny bit< of an exploit. Yes, CCP can change it if they wish, and I will cease use of it if it is declared an exploit. I play eve for fun, not to get banned. What exactly do you find 'fun' about that Lofty? That a bunch of pre-pubes think your cool for being a ***? He is 12 and feels all evil and cool while doing it? Gets his attention whoring on forums about it? I think he does it for the ISK. sure thats an option however if it was so id expect alot less forum activity from him because he wouldnt give a ** what someone is writing as long as he got isk anyway to me this is looking more like self glorification of an immature mind that gets an ego kick from "outsmarting" others and stealing theire hawt lewt! just my guess anyway, who cares, sh*t happens, people die, dont fly a rattlesnake if you cant lose one, etc etc..
Infinity Ziona Feet Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:43:00 - [154] Its all very well to say 'dont group with other players' or 'make sure you invite him' or 'drop the gang before you get to the location' but: What you are forgetting is wars dont happen immediately and warring corps dont cooperate, they fight each other. If you get a gang invite and its says 'if the corporation becomes involved in a war blah blah' then you expect, and rightly so, that the war would be executed as a normal war is. Not, that the guy in the gang is going to scramble you for the opposition, or that hes going to warp you directly to a preassigned location for the 'enemy' to gank you. All these 'intellectuals' given out advice about how you can avoid Lofties pathetic little scam, had you never heard of it, would not be taking their own advice and 'dropping the gang during warp' etc. Its a **ty little scam by a **ty little player who cant succeed in a game without cotton wool wrapped around his little e-peen and his groupies crying 'loftie, yoru teh man111 LOLACOPTER' and shouldnt be given any more legitimacy then that by supplying the moron with excuses and blaming the victim. Click Me
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:45:00 - [155] Originally by: Kharriga sure thats an option however if it was so id expect alot less forum activity from him because he wouldnt give a **** what someone is writing as long as he got isk anyway to me this is looking more like self glorification of an immature mind that gets an ego kick from "outsmarting" others and stealing theire hawt lewt! just my guess anyway, who cares, sht happens, people die, dont fly a rattlesnake if you cant lose one, etc etc.. Nono, I just like to defend my point. I dont give a * what people are saying here, and most of it is incorrect. Im about 600m richer due to a few hours work, and currently working in an undisclosed location, hoping to make the same. B3w4r3!!!!111!1lolz --------------------------- Originally by:** inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Kharriga Caldari The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:45:00 - [156] Oh and btw its a very smart tactics if i havent already made that clear. Defending youreself on forums about it and debating it overall is a bit too much ( concerning its ISK only interest ) Have fun, whatever it may be, thats what games are for anyway ;)
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 15:47:00 - [157] Originally by: Kharriga Oh and btw its a very smart tactics if i havent already made that clear. Defending youreself on forums about it and debating it overall is a bit too much ( concerning its ISK only interest ) Have fun, whatever it may be, thats what games are for anyway ;) Thank you I enjoy being flamed to ** on the forums too, its pretty funny when people flame flame flame and 90% of their information is wrong --------------------------- Originally by:** inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Ria Shar Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:01:00 - [158] Ah well, ready for round...ummm, I lost count. Anyways, ready for the next round tonight my dear lofty? Yarr
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:03:00 - [159] Originally by: Ria Shar Ah well, ready for round...ummm, I lost count. Anyways, ready for the next round tonight my dear lofty? Yarr of course --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:03:00 - [160] I think the sane response here is to simply alert all pilots when someone who is in a war joins. As someone suggested. Have this by default, set to ignore when it is a corp/alliance mate (since you'll already know about the war). What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
eLLioTT wave Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:25:00 - [161] /signed make it exploit and ban lofty (exploiting noobs is lame grow some balls) at the very least make the "dodgy gang member" warning appear when a "dodgy gang member" is invited to gang after you are. This is as basic as the original warning.
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 16:28:00 - [162] Originally by: eLLioTT wave /signed make it exploit and ban lofty (exploiting noobs is lame grow some balls) at the very least make the "dodgy gang member" warning appear when a "dodgy gang member" is invited to gang after you are. This is as basic as the original warning. Uhm, noobs? Name me one noob who flys a rattlesnake / navythron / machariel w/ faction fit? ISK buyers dont count. Sorry, but a ban is unlikely because I was told it was allowed. Warn me sure, make it an exploit and Ill never do it again. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Hakera	Posted - 2006.09.04 17:05:00 - [163] Edited by: Hakera on 04/09/2006 17:07:27 Originally by: Miss Overlord Originally by: Hakera ironically, the original changes to gangs and wars etc were brought in because of exactly this situation. A hostile corp you were at war with, would often have out of corp mates in gang who would be able to attack you the second you attacked him, you would be none the wise beforehand of these apparant neutrals. Linkage Good everyone off to jita will mean no more suicide ganks (well for t2 BPOs) otherwise should be fun might empty the system out and a good anti macro miner tool as they also accept gang invites for some reason the point at which game design limitations become 'game features' simply because its possible does not make them right. It only makes the developers wrong for calling them features when they are the failings of an imperfect and over-simplfied system. The new gang rules came about because of two reasons the old gang defence rules and basically zombies in yulai to properly flag players. If people are being flagged without warning then that is a failing in the game mechanics and by no means a game feature. IMO the flagging should be revamped to drop non-war people from gang and also allow for say a 10 minute period before your flagged through gang for a war to be shootable unless you assit or actively attack a target (one which cant be ticked to ignore and requires a response) Its much like the other 'game features' i have witnessed recently such as standing hits for killing any player in a noob corp when standings, especially to NPC corps should never ever be derived from PvP unless kali 2 has arrived on swift wings and your part of the factional warfare perhaps, but not to noob corp alts.
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 17:26:00 - [164] Originally by: Kharriga Tbh i wouldnt be surprised if he initiated this whole thread in some way ( ie. its his alt/main opening, he paid someone off, its his friend etc ). I assure you I¦m not in any way connected to lofty29 except that I killed him once. Ship lovers click here
Pestillence Revelations Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 17:27:00 - [165] Originally by: lofty29 currently working in an undisclosed location, hoping to make the same. /me points at your sig
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.04 17:29:00 - [166] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Kharriga Tbh i wouldnt be surprised if he initiated this whole thread in some way ( ie. its his alt/main opening, he paid someone off, its his friend etc ). I assure you I¦m not in any way connected to lofty29 except that I killed him once. You killed me? Nono. Me and my old corpie where having a bit of fun, stealing your corps ore in our caracals. It was funny. You warped in, IIRC, 7 bs's and 4 HAC's to deal with 2 caracals. YOU did not kill me. Your corporation killed me. And then you posted it on the forum and got flamed off, isnt that right? --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.04 17:41:00 - [167] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Kharriga Tbh i wouldnt be surprised if he initiated this whole thread in some way ( ie. its his alt/main opening, he paid someone off, its his friend etc ). I assure you I¦m not in any way connected to lofty29 except that I killed him once. You killed me? Nono. Me and my old corpie where having a bit of fun, stealing your corps ore in our caracals. It was funny. You warped in, IIRC, 7 bs's and 4 HAC's to deal with 2 caracals. YOU did not kill me. Your corporation killed me. And then you posted it on the forum and got flamed off, isnt that right? I have the killmail and only 2 ships were shooting at you. Will that be enough evidence? Ship lovers click here
Iyanah Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.04 17:49:00 - [168] Originally by: Sir Juri hmm this surely is an exploit if it can be done... wow they say its game mechanics? of course it's within the game mechanics, and yes it's a foul trick, a scam if you will. but I've seen CCP CONGRATULATE scammers in the past, they don't care about things like preventing scammers like every other game. mainly because they hardly have enough people to keep the servers up and running, let alone police the damn things. perhaps infuture there will be enough resources to enforce some kind of order, but for now it's the wild west, and the only way to avoid scams is to not do anything stupid. in a case like this, leaving the gang immediately would probably prevent the other players from being able to attack you. also, making sure you're always the gang leader when you're grouping up with an npc corp noob would prevent this from ever happening. though i find it odd that the newbie could warp scramble you without being attacked, i was under the impression that scamblers were considered an agresive act? ========================================== Iy
Kenz Rider	Posted - 2006.09.04 18:00:00 - [169] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Kharriga Tbh i wouldnt be surprised if he initiated this whole thread in some way ( ie. its his alt/main opening, he paid someone off, its his friend etc ). I assure you I¦m not in any way connected to lofty29 except that I killed him once. You killed me? Nono. Me and my old corpie where having a bit of fun, stealing your corps ore in our caracals. It was funny. You warped in, IIRC, 7 bs's and 4 HAC's to deal with 2 caracals. YOU did not kill me. Your corporation killed me. And then you posted it on the forum and got flamed off, isnt that right? Ha. Whiney ganker complaining about getting ganked. - - - -- - - - -- - - - -- - - - Little known fact: If DS had RL money, he would have lost it in Enron.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.04 18:09:00 - [170] This situation needs to be looked at imho. It is one thing for someone to get ganked because they ignored a specific warning, but this is not the same. Ultimately, the fact that the 'ganker' goes to such lengths to avoid the 'victim' reading the specific warning (rather than the far more general, and somewhat misleading, usual gang message) is a fair indication that this is an unfair abuse of game mechanics. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Selective Memory	Posted - 2006.09.04 18:10:00 - [171] The fact that you have the freedom/ability to scam and do all sorts of other free activities in EVE is one of the reasons it is such a good MMO. I really do not veiw the object of this thread a scam though. Its an exploit. It relies on obscure gang rules to bypass a very clear warning that players are supposed to see before they join a gang. The only way to avoid it is to know it exists, and only a tiny percentage of the people playing EVE will ever hear of this exploit. True, the only way to avoid gate camps is to know they exist, but the concept of players attacking you at choke points makes sense and there is a very clear warning displayed for all to read each time you enter a dangerous area. The practice in discussion is not intuitive and no amount of ocmmon sense will help someoneevade it. One of the main reasons gangs are in the game is to make it easier for casual groups of players and even new acquaintences to work together on things like missions. It is true that all gang invites contain some text which discusses what could happen if people in the gang go to war with eachother, but this is not quite ample warning to let players know exactly what dangers exist in this. A pop up informing gang members when war targets enter the gang, and a delay aggressing gang members seems sufficen... Screw it. Have fun guys. To many rich noobs flying around as is.
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.04 18:20:00 - [172] everyone needs to start doing the same as all the little grief play exploiters, and let the GM's whine to CCP bosses when the Q goes through the roof....oh geee its a massive Q already...wonder why... There is a time to act, and the GM's have let it pass... this is the same path all other exploits took, CCP deny it is an exploit until they have a patch ready, stealth impliment it, then moonwalk to say they knew it was a problem but wouldnt dare lose a single $ of the exploit users, regardless of how many QUIT THE FFFFING game due to the exploit being used on them. try being proactive CCP, it works fare better then kissing arses of exploit users. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.04 18:34:00 - [173] Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 04/09/2006 18:34:42 Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Sergio Ling impossible to evade? now THAT'S bullcrap just dont gang with people you don't know Exactly why it isnt an exploit You are a pathetic worthless loser. When scammers prey on greed, assuming they use their mains, I don't mind much. But when sad little losers like you prey on folks who try to help noobs, you become a pathetic disease infecting the game. snip This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.04 21:52:00 - [174] Originally by: Infinity Ziona All these 'intellectuals' given out advice about how you can avoid Lofties pathetic little scam, had you never heard of it, would not be taking their own advice and 'dropping the gang during warp' etc. Sorry, you're wrong...I've been doing this for over a year now. But then I'm a suspicious old git I guess. Maybe that's why I've only been ganked once and only been podded once...and both times I knew it was a risk and went into the situation with my eyes open. THere really is NO need to be in someone's gang to help them...you have to JOIN it to warp to them, yes...but on the way there, just drop out. As I said, anyone who's genuinely after help won't give a toss, as long as you kill Rachen Mysuna for him. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.04 21:58:00 - [175] Originally by: lofty29 Im about 600m richer due to a few hours work, and currently working in an undisclosed location, hoping to make the same. B3w4r3!!!!111!1lolz He's in Motsu. Or at least he was tonight. Originally by: lofty29 Sorry, but a ban is unlikely because I was told it was allowed. Warn me sure, make it an exploit and Ill never do it again. I'll meet you halfway. Make it an exploit, reimburse the mission runners you killed, and take 600 million out of your wallet. Happiness all round. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
ElCoCo Gallente KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.09.04 22:09:00 - [176] Edited by: ElCoCo on 04/09/2006 22:11:01 This is such an obvious exploit I'm amazed with some of you ppl hiding behind your finger. edit: not to mention the crazy GM(s) that don't see it as an exploit.
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2006.09.04 22:21:00 - [177] Hehe. Awesome. lofty 4tw! Darwinian Gaming 4tw! Eve 4tw! What more can I say except that I really love reading ranting, angry complaint posts like these. Really. It just makes me feel so. . . superior I remember. . . this guy (lofty) was the first guy to ever blow my ship up in PvP (in some low sec system). Did I complain? Did I rant? No I had a conversation with him on local, saying how fun it was. And don't say I knew the risks and he (the OP) didn't if you accept gang invites from random noobs. lol. - - - - - - - - - - Quote: I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
Infinity Ziona Feet Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.04 22:31:00 - [178] Originally by: Zhaine Hehe. Awesome. lofty 4tw! Darwinian Gaming 4tw! Eve 4tw! What more can I say except that I really love reading ranting, angry complaint posts like these. Really. It just makes me feel so. . . superior I remember. . . this guy (lofty) was the first guy to ever blow my ship up in PvP (in some low sec system). Did I complain? Did I rant? No I had a conversation with him on local, saying how fun it was. And don't say I knew the risks and he (the OP) didn't if you accept gang invites from random noobs. lol. /me Hands Zhaine some Pom Poms. Click Me
Katya Guillaume	Posted - 2006.09.05 14:03:00 - [179] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: lofty29 Im about 600m richer due to a few hours work, and currently working in an undisclosed location, hoping to make the same. B3w4r3!!!!111!1lolz He's in Motsu. Or at least he was tonight. Originally by: lofty29 Sorry, but a ban is unlikely because I was told it was allowed. Warn me sure, make it an exploit and Ill never do it again. I'll meet you halfway. Make it an exploit, reimburse the mission runners you killed, and take 600 million out of your wallet. Happiness all round. Ha, must have been him asking for help "I didn't bring the right resists" business :) thought something was fishy about that - and now I know the name of that pilot.
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.05 15:37:00 - [180] The lack of response from CCP says it all. Ship lovers click here
Istaklain	Posted - 2006.09.06 03:41:00 - [181] Exploit or not, its one hell of a lame tactic. Of course the only way to fix something like this is to abuse the heck out of it, forcing ccp to do something.
Helluin Caldari Crimson Wings Squadron	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:09:00 - [182] I'm one of the recent victims of Lofty's "tactic". It's a cheap as way to die, and it's pretty discouraging to be ganked because you wanted to help a newbie and watch weeks worth of hard work get crushed(after paying a ransom, too!) That said, coming to the forums to moan and cry after CCP already said this was a legit tactic is pretty useless. If you want him to stop, you have to make this tactic unprofitable for him. Hunt him down and beat him like a naughty puppy, force him to hole up in a station all night...whatever. Just don't come crying to the forums. You can hope CCP comes to their senses and fixes this, if you want, but I wouldn't count on it.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:17:00 - [183] "The only thing that bugs me about this is that new players will not get help from the more experienced. Thanks to the antics of lofty29, new players now are shunned when they ask for help. This is not exactly a good situation. " Agree the problem with this little loophole, is that left unchecked it just teaches people to be very unsocial and unhelpful, something that is not good for a game of this complexity.
BoinaAzul	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:22:00 - [184] When was EVE a friendly game?
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:23:00 - [185] Originally by: Hellspawn01 The lack of response from CCP says it all. hah, as if CCP staying silent has any import to this being an exploit or not...they have done the same before and only pronounced something as an exploit AFTER they fixed the game mechanic. I could claim that CCP's lack of response is because they are obviously busy changing the way the mechanic works and do not want the little lamer exploiters rushing to use it before it is gone...could be as true as your 'deedeedee' comment. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Cmdr Baxter Caldari Skunk Works Corp. C O I N Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:29:00 - [186] Edited by: Cmdr Baxter on 06/09/2006 23:29:31 Thanks to the comments about the tactics that Lofty has been utilizing as of late, I'll just be yet another informed citizen of EVE, minding their business and trying to avoid becoming a victim of this tactic. My hat's off to everyone for keeping this thread up and going. Originally by: Helluin I'm one of the recent victims of Lofty's "tactic". It's a cheap as way to die, and it's pretty discouraging to be ganked because you wanted to help a newbie and watch weeks worth of hard work get crushed(after paying a ransom, too!) If Lofty is ganking people -after- they pay a ransom, it's going to start to affect pirates next. They'll be finding people unwilling to pay ransoms, and instead either (a) fleeing at the first sign of unknown ships, or (b), fighting the pirates, which can be costly to all parties involved. Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Major Death The only thing that bugs me about this is that new players will not get help from the more experienced. Thanks to the antics of lofty29, new players now are shunned when they ask for help. This is not exactly a good situation. Yep. Go lofty. Agreed. Newer players are going to have an ..... 'interesting' time if these tactics persist in high-security systems. But then again, who ever said space was a safe place? Commanding Officer S.W.V. Tiger
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:30:00 - [187] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 "The only thing that bugs me about this is that new players will not get help from the more experienced. Thanks to the antics of lofty29, new players now are shunned when they ask for help. This is not exactly a good situation. " Agree the problem with this little loophole, is that left unchecked it just teaches people to be very unsocial and unhelpful, something that is not good for a game of this complexity. ] yep, great way to encourage teamwork is to allow mistrust and encourage gankage due to the exploit of a game mechanic! Oh yes, lets have them force us to use teamwork, force us to be dependant on others, and at the same time FORCE us to not trust anyone in the game because they could be using the FFFIng exploit to lure us into a gank.... TRUST NO ONE! KILL ALL NOOBS BECAUSE THEY ARE ONLY TRYING TO GET YOU GANKED! NEVER HELP ANYONE BECAUSE THEY ARE ONLY TRYING TO GET YOU GANKED! NEVER WORK AS A TEAM BECAUSE YOU CAN'T TRUST THEM! see where this leads...fix the damned game mechanic CCP, and declare the intentional misuse of the invite order as an exploit until it is fixed, or live with this mistrust and lack of team work it will bring (you want the noobs in 0.0 space, sorry we can't trust them...) FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Calynus Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.06 23:47:00 - [188] I would think I would be more pragmatic about it than CCP is being. What's better? Keeping a relatively small number of griefers subscriptions and the revenue they bring, or losing the accounts of some of the people that they are allowing to be the victims of the exploits used by these people? CCP should want to retain people and keep those people playing. I would imagine that the antics of lofty29 et al have encouraged more than a couple people to unsubscribe, costing CCP money. This is seen to be an exploit by the majority of the people posting here, but it's not being fixed. It gives the impression that CCP is in favor of exploits or can't program worth a damn or just plain doesn't give a crap. CCP's policy of non-interference in scams, etc, etc is fine, but allowing broken game mechanics and a poor UI implementation fo the Invite dialogue window to cost them subscriptions to keep a few griefers happy just isn't smart business.
DrAtomic Polytope Ghosts of Retribution	Posted - 2006.09.07 10:45:00 - [189] Edited by: DrAtomic on 07/09/2006 10:46:18 New gang options are in development atm; so good timing to request a feature request with this topic in mind. ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery
Del369 Caldari Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.07 11:37:00 - [190] Come on folks, this is CCP land where crime pays, where punishment slipped out the back door and did a runner, cos it's all like coolio and yarry and piratey and stuff just like real life, screw crime and punishment, simply victimise the victims eh CCP ? I want to die quietly in my sleep just like my dear old grandma, and not screaming in terror like her passengers!!
Liklin	Posted - 2006.09.07 11:37:00 - [191] Edited by: Liklin on 07/09/2006 11:37:44 alty walty smalty main posty bollox
Gunsnroses Hmmzor. Muffins of Mayhem	Posted - 2006.09.07 12:19:00 - [192] This most def 100% exploit, just like log on traps. For some reason CCP wont deal with ethier.
Dragon Lord	Posted - 2006.09.07 12:26:00 - [193] Edited by: Dragon Lord on 07/09/2006 12:27:22 not a fair tactic imo but like ccp say within the game mechanics so not an exploit, however 2 things u can do to stop this happening. 1. Make sure u know who ur ganging with 2. if u dont ask in local about the player u are about to gang with if hes done it before someone will say somthing. but in general dont gang with people u dont know period, i think lofty nearly poped one of my corp mates once stupid corp mate he got a rosting for being so stupid lol
Jane Vladmir Gallente Warmongers	Posted - 2006.09.07 12:41:00 - [194] Why didn't he leave the gang?
Infinity Ziona Privateers	Posted - 2006.09.07 13:16:00 - [195] I think the moment your aggressed you cannot leave the gang to avoid the aggression, if you do it still continues for 15 minutes. Click Me
Krexus Amarr Reunited	Posted - 2006.09.07 14:12:00 - [196] I feel a yarr coming up --------- yes i kill topics They never got me Originally by: Red Knight Your forum-foo is strong
Celero Incendium Fist of the Goat	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:37:00 - [197] I've only read about half of the thread, but it seems like the simplest solution would be to tell the noob that YOU wil be the gang leader and YOU INVITE THE NOOB, don't let him invite you. That way you can control who is added to the gang. If the noob complains, tell him sorry that's the only way you'll join. Pretty freakin' simple to be quite honest. I really don't see how or why this would be an exploit, you're given a warning that something bad may and could happen when you join any gang. If you chose to ignore that, who's fault is that? --ci
Resin Kadir Lexx Corp	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:10:00 - [198] I'm trying my hardest to figure out how you consider this an exploit. The only part I'm foggy on is how the noob was able to warp scramble you with being Concordokened, unless this was in a .4 or lower system. Otherwise, joining gangs other than your corp/alliances while you are at war is ALWAYS risky. I too agree it is well within game mechanics. Just because the noob sponsoring the game is a jerk doesn't mean it's an exploit. It's simply a cheap tactic to get your prey. Would I use this to get an enemy? Yes! Would I feel like a total idiot and laugh it off if it happened to me? Yes! In a similiar situation, I had a pirate gang warp me to a POS of his corps. The only reason I let him warp me, and I knew it was some kind of trap, was because I scaned beyond the range I was warping and didn't see any other ships or control towers. Little did I know, control towers weren't on the overview filter by default. It wasn't an exploit though I think a control tower shouldn't fire on a gang member; it was just a gang mechanic I got caught in. I'm sure I had the right to blame CCP for taking control towers off the default filter, but I didn't. So, I say suck it up and leave something that works well enough for everyone else alone.
Resin Kadir Lexx Corp	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:21:00 - [199] Next thing you know, you guys are going to be saying "I picked up a small armor repairer from a can at a gate and this guy pwned me for no reason and concord just WATCHED! EXPLOIT!!!!!!" Read the rules and warnings people and shut up!
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:42:00 - [200] Originally by: Resin Kadir Read the rules and warnings people and shut up! I think you missed the point that was being made. The tactic being used prevents the "victim" from getting the "This gang is at war" warning. That is what people think is wrong with it. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Tommy Vercetti The Nexus Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:58:00 - [201] Originally by: Avon The tactic being used prevents the "victim" from getting the "This gang is at war" warning. That is what people think is wrong with it. The tactic does not prevent the "victim" from clicking "decline". Its that simple. Sure the tactic is low, but it can be avoided easily. It is possible to evade, dont click accept. And now its 7 pages of whinge, threats of leaving / mistrust and whatever hash anyone else has thrown in. Eve is a game of actions and consequences, stupid actions lead to big consequences, I dont know how else to put it. --------------------------------------------------- Tommy Vercetti A&E Director The Nexus Syndicate ---------------------------------------------------
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.16 12:13:00 - [202] Edited by: Avon on 16/09/2006 12:13:56 Originally by: Tommy Vercetti Originally by: Avon The tactic being used prevents the "victim" from getting the "This gang is at war" warning. That is what people think is wrong with it. The tactic does not prevent the "victim" from clicking "decline". Its that simple. Sure the tactic is low, but it can be avoided easily. It is possible to evade, dont click accept. And now its 7 pages of whinge, threats of leaving / mistrust and whatever hash anyone else has thrown in. Eve is a game of actions and consequences, stupid actions lead to big consequences, I dont know how else to put it. If the person joining the gang was not supposed to get a warning about that gang being involved in a war, CCP would not have gone to the effort to code that warning. Abusing game mechanics to deny the "victim" from seeing the intended message is the problem, nothing else. I have no problem with people being ganked because they ignored the message if they received it. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Terazuk Amarr Rogen's Heroes Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.16 12:19:00 - [203] Perhaps an opt out should be included in the gang mechanics if/when inimical parties join the gang for example a dialogue that says; 'A pilot has joined the gang which is currently at war with another of its members, do you wish to leave the gang? (YES) - (NO)' This would circumvent the method used to dupe said players from this 'exploit' All you need to do then is sit back and watch the fireworks as Concord Wtfpwn them all! "...Soon, all of us will have special names; names designed to cause the cathode ray tube to resonate." Videodrome
Hellspawn01 Amarr The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.16 12:41:00 - [204] Disabling the mechanic to be in the same gang as your war target would solve this too. Ship lovers click here
vanBuskirk Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.16 13:20:00 - [205] Interestingly enough, lofty29 also has a habit of dishonouring 1v1s by ignoring the previously agreed (publicly on local) rules. The time I saw this, he had got someone to agree to a 1v1, by using the warring gang tactic, and both parties had agreed to a "no-ECM" rule. In public. Guess what lofty fitted? By the way, this was in Dodixie. I agree with all those who have said that one consequence of this bit of lameness is that genuine noobs who need a bit of help won't get it. Great for the long-term future of the game - not. Oh well, maybe a space MMORPG with less griefers will turn up sometime - maybe even one where griefers get kicked out forthwith. Unfortunately, I am not holding my breath. A bit of free advice, lofty - if you carry your attitude to previously made agreements, and to the law, over to RL, you are going to end up either in jail or in a rather small box, depending on who you tick off. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." ----------------------------------------------
lofty29 Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.09.16 13:28:00 - [206] Originally by: vanBuskirk Interestingly enough, lofty29 also has a habit of dishonouring 1v1s by ignoring the previously agreed (publicly on local) rules. The time I saw this, he had got someone to agree to a 1v1, by using the warring gang tactic, and both parties had agreed to a "no-ECM" rule. In public. Guess what lofty fitted? ... A bit of free advice, lofty - if you carry your attitude to previously made agreements, and to the law, over to RL, you are going to end up either in jail or in a rather small box, depending on who you tick off. Firstly, yep, I dishonored the 1v1. Mainly because you decided to smack smack smack before even accepting to fight me. Secondly, Im a pirate, we break rules. And on the second part, I use the game as an outlet so I dont feel the need to do that IRL. I've never broken a major law and never intend to. I'm quite a trustworthy person actually, provided you dont ** me off Dont judge a book by its gank tactics. --------------------------- Originally by:** inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. I pwnz0r your sig, muahaha - Tirg Noes i got beat by a girl >.< - Xorus
Kassandra Tillman	Posted - 2006.09.16 13:34:00 - [207] while i would not use this tactic and have issues with those that would use it. I have to give lofty some credit, he is not hiding what his tactics are, he's even confirming ways to avoid it or escape him. best thing to do if your a vet that wants to help a newer player is to use a disposable ship and be careful. 1 question lofty, do u pod kill your victems or ransom there pods?
lofty29 Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.09.16 13:40:00 - [208] Originally by: Kassandra Tillman while i would not use this tactic and have issues with those that would use it. I have to give lofty some credit, he is not hiding what his tactics are, he's even confirming ways to avoid it or escape him. best thing to do if your a vet that wants to help a newer player is to use a disposable ship and be careful. 1 question lofty, do u pod kill your victems or ransom there pods? Not usually, they've either left the gang by then, meaning i cant get an aggro on the pod, or I just cant be arsed. No point to it, tbh. --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. I pwnz0r your sig, muahaha - Tirg Noes i got beat by a girl >.< - Xorus
Ixianus	Posted - 2006.09.16 14:25:00 - [209] Quote: I agree with this. The warning is there to tell people information that is necasarry that could not be gathered otherwise. Circumventing this warning does not seem to be what was intended. Then again who's dumb enough to join some random person's gang with a faction ship? This does have the negative side effect of making it much harder to trust a real noob who is having difficulties. This can make Eve very hard to get into for new players. New players are necasarry for the continuing survival of any online game. This is clearly an exploitive in nature, assuming its true. Ive ganged with new players on multiple occasions to help them run a mission or the like. Hearing about this ganking method would cause me to shy away from helping any new player. BTW, the people that respond to petitions are not gods, theyre just hired to try and solve problems theyve encountered before, game mechanics and a few other canned responces are pretty common occurances. This is clearly something that needs addressed as it hinders new players from interacting with older players. I met my first, and current corperation through a gang enviroment. I cant imagine why anyone would defend something like this, other than utter complacency and fanboy-ism. There are alot of things in Eve that need fixed or at least looked at, some of which are being addressed in Kali. I cant imagine the gang system was thought up as a way to gank hapless do-gooders.
Mr Popov Shadow Company Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.09.16 14:30:00 - [210] Originally by: Ixianus This is clearly an exploitive in nature, assuming its true. Ive ganged with new players on multiple occasions to help them run a mission or the like. Hearing about this ganking method would cause me to shy away from helping any new player. BTW, the people that respond to petitions are not gods, theyre just hired to try and solve problems theyve encountered before, game mechanics and a few other canned responces are pretty common occurances. This is clearly something that needs addressed as it hinders new players from interacting with older players. I met my first, and current corperation through a gang enviroment. I cant imagine why anyone would defend something like this, other than utter complacency and fanboy-ism. There are alot of things in Eve that need fixed or at least looked at, some of which are being addressed in Kali. I cant imagine the gang system was thought up as a way to gank hapless do-gooders. This is the best thing to come out of this thread. Everyone please get off your high horses and "reading gang warning 4tw" comments and understand the above.
Ishtar1 the Organ Grinder and Company Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.16 14:43:00 - [211] Edited by: Ishtar1 on 16/09/2006 14:44:17 TBH..... even this is confurmed a non expliot in the futer i no it isnt 1 atm i thnk it is 1 feature that this game could do definitly without. (excuss my spelling)
Kaiu Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.09.16 15:17:00 - [212] OK very Serious point here... people in this thread seem to misunderstand the technical aspects of this 'exploit' Previously, from what i understood and saw in action, was that 2 people in a gang.. each at war with other would invite a target to gang... that target would join... then the second person in the gang would warp in and engage the target This was being completed with MUCH sucess on haulers, frieghters in/near Jita(probably still is?) Now with THIS above method, the person joining the gang receives a CLEAR message warning them they will be in a war situation in Concords eyes... Now,the OP method involves the second and third entity in the gang, the 2 opposing war factions, joining the gang AFTER the target has been ganged Therefore AVOIDING the war warning message The FIRST method has been confirmed to myself and others by GM petition as NOT an exploit as the warning is received... The second method WITHOUT the warning... very dodgy imo But, fair play if you make some iskies until you get warned about it by a GM ____________________ MOGarmy
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.16 15:20:00 - [213] If in doubt, leave the gang. If fired upon, leave the gang. Don't gang with people you don't know. Do not depend on game mechanics to replace your brain or common sense.
Kaiu Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.09.16 15:31:00 - [214] Originally by: Ranger 1 If in doubt, leave the gang. If fired upon, leave the gang. Doesnt matter, they have 15mins after the first act of agression to continue to shooty shooty you ____________________ MOGarmy
lofty29 Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.09.16 15:33:00 - [215] Originally by: Kaiu Originally by: Ranger 1 If in doubt, leave the gang. If fired upon, leave the gang. Doesnt matter, they have 15mins after the first act of agression to continue to shooty shooty you And about 20 from first seeing me to being shot at --------------------------- Originally by: inSpirAcy Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you. I pwnz0r your sig, muahaha - Tirg Noes i got beat by a girl >.< - Xorus
Nev Clavain Wise Guys	Posted - 2006.09.16 16:02:00 - [216] I lolled at this thread. The guys complaining that you said you would run to friends 0.0 if they wardecced you also made me lol. Little do they know it would probably be the enemies of your friends that killed them if they came after you. Who would wardec one guy anyhow lol. Must have been pretty ****ed off. pretty dirty as it was 5 months ago, i'm just surprised you are sgetting people who have got expensive faction ships - who really ought to know better unless (as you said) they ebayed their ships. That is lame, newbies flying round in their ebay pwnmobile. Keep wasting them. ________________________________________________ A Journey....
Ginger Magician Minmatar OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2006.09.16 16:12:00 - [217] TO be honest although I am a pirate and considered a griefer by many carebears I think this gang exploit business is wrong.The people who join these gangs are sitting in 1.0 space.I'm sure in many cases they have not even left 0.5 and above and have no experience of pvp.Ganking such noobs who are after all in 1.0 is an abuse and unfair especially when they are ganged by a npc corp member who then invites warring alts to the gang.CCP need to fix this exploit as soon as possible.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.16 16:50:00 - [218] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 16/09/2006 16:53:53 But if you leave the gang, they can not warp to you any longer. And why, oh why, would you allow a person in a noob corp... that you do not know... to form the gang and be gang leader? This stranger is then in charge of gang invites, where and when you warp. The gang leader MUST be someone you trust. Idiocy.
Hellspawn01 Amarr The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.16 17:12:00 - [219] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 16/09/2006 16:57:52 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 16/09/2006 16:53:53 But if you leave the gang, they can not warp to you any longer. And why, oh why, would you allow a person in a noob corp... that you do not know... to form the gang and be gang leader? This stranger is then in charge of gang invites, where and when you warp. The gang leader MUST be someone you trust. Idiocy. Truthfully, I would have no objections to the Warning message going out to all gang members when someone at war is joining the gang... but they better make sure that it does not interfere with clicking on other things, otherwise this will be exploited as well in certain situations. Common sense, however, it far more effective than game mechanics. Your gang leader should be gang leader for a reason. If it's his mission (supposedly) have him warp to the mission area first and then you warp to him. Don't allow that stranger to control the situation by being gang leader just because you are lazy. New players often use the gang invite to get ppl to help them. This has nothing to do with idiocy, its a call for help. They talk in local, you say you can help and you get a gang invite seconds later. The same happens to older players but they agree on a gang before sending an invite. Ship lovers click here
Noriath	Posted - 2006.09.16 17:35:00 - [220] Regardless of wether this entire thing is legal or not, it's just another way this community is ruined. If trying to help newbies always involves the risk of getting killed sooner or later nobody is going to do it anymore. The Eve community is going downhill, people who play fair and are helpful to others will just always get screwed in this game and not get a shred of sympathy from anyone. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not against PvP in any way, I just can't understand the fact that CCP puts a system in the game that allows you to kill someone who tries to help a newbie with a mission within game mechanics, but not a system that allows you to war people like empire tech 2 producers and other people that acctually don't deserve the incredible protection empire and anonymous markets afford them.
Silpher	Posted - 2006.09.19 07:32:00 - [221] I personally don't see why the subjects' corps being at war has anything to do with the argument of "exploit/no explot". This is generally only done to those who have the potential of having something worth pirating. If you have something worth pirating, it means you have experience. Now, in the case of someone buying shat off of ebay, I say kill 'em all. But, if, infact, you do have this experience, then you should understand the possible danger in this. Joining a gang with someone you do not know is a risk. Everyone should know this. It is completely comparable to canister mining and the likes, because there IS in fact an assumed risk involved. The Divs don't just decide something isn't an exploit "just because." There is a criteria. This does not fall in that criteria because there is assumed risk. Yes, you may be mislead into trusting, but that's just a version of piracy. This shouldn't even be an issue. IT IS NOT EXPLOITIVE!
Dekiri Useless Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.19 08:08:00 - [222] There are a couple of nonsense arguments here. First of all you can easily protect yourself if you insist on making the gang with the "newb you help" you will then always get the warning and noone can join quickly to gank you. So one of the things to keep in mind would be "if you gang with strangers be the gangleader". To all the people who are asking ccp to change the game to another WoW or EQII or whatever go get lost guys. We have these types of games enough and eve is one of the few if not the only by now where it actually can hurt to loose. Also the only one where you need to use your brain to "survive" or at least be "aware" at all times. Eve is great because it is dangerous, we don't need another game that takes you by the hand and protects you every step you make. -------------- My dad can beat up your dad! Support lowsec!
Piotr Pixellan Eve University	Posted - 2006.09.19 08:51:00 - [223] well I am a new player to Eve, I love the game but am thinking of leaving....why? 1) I simply dont have the time needed, I can devote maybe 2 hours a day, a bit more at weekends. But this in itself is not huge problem I just need to find a decent UK corp. 2) Some of the game mechanics are idiotic. This thread is one example. The only people defending this screwed up feature are the ebil pirates (big surprise). I dont have huge amount of time invested in this game, I don't have a hidden agenda. Upon reading this thread I immediately saw the whole gang *****thing is idiotic. Another game mechanic that is idiotic....my corp, a newbie corp, has been war decced by griefers looking for easy kills. They just camp outside our station and blow up Ibis. We put together a frig group to get em. It was a farce. We had 20 frigs circling their ships. No One Fired. WHY? Because if we fired first we could not dock, they would start picking us off and then dock at their leisure. They knew this and also would not fire first. Ridiculous. The whole docking 30s thing is screwed up in Empire space. And to top it all off, when we finlly did get a battle going, 20 of us, 3 of them (in BS etc), the node crashed. So in the 4 weeks of play I have witnessed ridiculous lag (which people say is not normal, but due to the recent 'improvements'), ridiculous mechanics fvouring griefers and now this thread which shows how nooblets like me are even more out in the cold. Way to go CCP.
Benco97 Gallente On Ravens Wings	Posted - 2006.09.19 09:06:00 - [224] I am not a pirate, I am a Miner. I don't think what Lofty is doing is wrong and will continue to think this until CCP say that it is wrong. I just like a harsh game, common sense will keep you safe. The main thing that should be learned is that NO space is safe space. Sure, morals come into it but isn't he playing as a nasty pirate? in the end it's all a game, I believe he only targets the expensive ships too? I see nothing wrong with that, if they are silly enough to gang with unknowns then they will lose their nice eBay'd ships. Head of the Fedo Appreciation Group (F.A.G) and Registered Fedo breeder
Elspeth Vigneron Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.05.26 13:56:00 - [225] Originally by: Lord Frost i agree... yet another lame tactic by lazy pirates that just want to grief... sad sad. the whole 'game mechanics' is bull... because exploits are based on game mechanics... or else we couldnt do them! duh. Yes, and it's pretty frustrating. POS bowling with the WTZ defect. Now this. And, of course, getting scammed by the lag in Jita... Phoenix Logistics Industries
Erialor Godsent Gallente Conisor Excavations Syndicate Antagonistic Assembly	Posted - 2007.05.26 14:00:00 - [226] Originally by: Elspeth Vigneron Yes, and it's pretty frustrating. POS bowling with the WTZ defect. Now this. And, of course, getting scammed by the lag in Jita... Necroing tends to be a bit frustrating, too

Deckard Bishop Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.05.26 14:13:00 - [227] necro = click forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website Contact Support - Report Bug - Join ISD


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