For the sake of argument, repeat those "tests" but now with rigor/flare rigs.

So I've thought a lot about heavy missiles, currently they are really bad and Difficult to use, RLML or Light Missiles are often used instead of them because Heavy Missiles have incredibly bad application and very low DPS (Compared to other medium LR Turrets), Boosting the statistics of Heavy Missiles won't really do much good though because otherwise they threaten to step on Heavy Assault and Cruise Missiles (Esp because of the new RHML lauchers) and the more I thought about it the more I think that with the current set of parameters balancing Heavy Missiles and making them have actual good interesting game-play attached to them is incredibly difficult. When HMLs were everywhere, they were a very dumb low interaction module that had average DPS and good application with very good range, but since there is no tracking/cap use/different optimal/DPS ranges, they were basically 'Press Button' in terms of the thought of use associated with them. And I understand why CCP made them weaker.

I propose to add the following mechanic to Heavy Missiles;
Heavy Missiles gain %bonus damage+Application based on the time they have spent in the air, the longer the flight time, the more powerful Heavy Missiles become.

I think this would be interesting because it allows you to balance heavy missiles with heavy assault missiles better. (HMLs could have equal or even higher potential damage, although this damage would obviously not manifest in the range where HAMs operate, retaining HAMs as the go-to missile system for brawling, where as HMLs could do equilvilant LR Turret DPS at range, if the missiles spend sufficient time in the air, this would make missiles vs LR Turrets interesting too, HMLs don't sacrifice as much fittings/no cap use/tracking is of a 'lesser' concern, but Heavy Missiles are obviously a delayed weapon where as Turrets are instant, so it could create an interesting dynamic where HMLs have better fittings for damage, but suffer from delayed damage.

This also makes Heavy Missiles an interesting weapon to use, and to fight against, getting on top of a Heavy Missile user will reduce his DPS output, which creates interesting decision making in a fight vs a HML user, it could also be interesting for the HML user to swap to different targets based on their range so that he can do higher potential damage to them. There is also high risk for the highest damage, as shooting someone at the edge of your missile range risks your opponent moving away and evading all the damage all together.

This would also make Missile Flight Time Rigs interesting!

So did you feel they were worthwhile trades? Compared to say RLML* or a gunship? I never did.

I actually made a mistake before, there is one ship quite nifty with HML - Navy caracals. Rigor on that starts to be worth it, for me personally (rainbow damage plays a significant part in that as well though).


*Edit: If I'm not mistaken, RLML even do more sustained (i.e. DPS reduced even accounting for all reloads) to moving cruisers than HML, whilst still murdering frigates compared to a non-rigor caracal. They (RLML) don't need the rigor and in fact when compared to a triple application fit HML the difference is ~10%. So 10% more damage to cruisers at a massive tank hit and vastly inferior tackle clearing. Yuck. Range difference isn't really significant either, given how far the RLML go. Numbers may not be quite there, please double check - was in a hurry and not had enough coffee!


I suppose if you're shooting fury at a tackled battlecruiser/ship maybe - but at that point I really am clutching at straws.

A lot of problems for missile boats would just evaporate if they had something like Tracking Computers and Tracking enhancers.

Target painters work on the target but only up to a certain range while tracking comps not only potentially increase your optimal range but also work on all ranges, no matter how far your target is away.

Also, just so I understand this right, because usually I don't fly gun boats, how many rig slots does the avaerage Cruiser or BC gunboat have to dedicate for gun rigs to apply viable damage in PVP?

Well graphed in pyfa the caracal from the earlier example shooting the slasher jumps from 22.5dps to 30.4.

This is with 2 flares and 1 rigor, no drugs or TPs factored. So not even 30% more dps for what is 45% better application through modifiers.

Shooting the stabber base dps 69, plus 2x flare 1 rigor it jumps to 92.2. 33% more dps applied. Again this is 45% more application resulting in 33% more dps. Adding in 2x painters and strong crash you hit 175.5 dps or 38% damage mitigated through the stabber having a 10mn AB II. By comparison the caracal has 718m/s with an AB so you'd want a fairly healthy head start (and probably HG snakes) to keep ahead.

There's lots and lots of variables but the guarantees work out generally to that missiles will apply greatly reduced dps to any target moving over 12% faster than your missile explosion velocity. For reference of the curious, after this break point your dps applied drops faster and faster until it bottoms out at nearly nothing. I think stoicfaux generated a 3d graph of this for the inital RLML remake which showed how missiles function across a broad spectrum of sig and velocities. I might go dig those up.

A lot of problems for missile boats would just evaporate if they had something like Tracking Computers and Tracking enhancers.

Target painters work on the target but only up to a certain range while tracking comps not only potentially increase your optimal range but also work on all ranges, no matter how far your target is away.

Also, just so I understand this right, because usually I don't fly gun boats, how many rig slots does the avaerage Cruiser or BC gunboat have to dedicate for gun rigs to apply viable damage in PVP?

Well one thing I've found so far is it's arguably better to ise RLML on any ship with a damage bonus to them and fit hydraulic thruster rigs to extend the range than use HML on the same vessel.

OTOH RLML don't hold a candle to the volley damage or uptime from an HML ship so there are some fringe scenarios where you might still select HML and I suspect that would be based around your fleet comp or possibly the orthrus. I'm finding it hard to even give HML a role here. Kind of like HACs where the ishtar (rlml) just does everything better.

Exactly. There are definitely some edge cases where theorycraft puts HML as the weapon of choice, in reality those situations are either so unlikey, so rare or it will be so fleeting that actually using them is a mistake. There are odd exceptions but that is my general experience, things like the orthrus cope better because the combination of speed and tackle range buys it more time/room to maneover.

They don't need much help, but they need help. The performance is too poor shooting same sized targets to warrant their use for me personally. Even if RLML didn't exist, I'd still use a different weapon if I had any say in it, they just can't keep up with other medium guns (or sentries at HAC level) at any reasonable engagement.

Well, it's rapid light, only cruisers can really use them well. Gruistas aside. Unbonsued rlml wouldnt see the light of day.

Even if you did though, I wouldnt expect to see HML profilerate into that gap because they dont fill it. They are just sub-standard, I'd usually say this is just my opinion but I cant even remember the last time I was hit by one, or saw one on (either side of) a killmail without trawling zkillboard, so my local area basically. Anyway, point being I don't think it's just me being a special snowflake. Heck if they were worth a damn, they'd be good at killing ishtars because you can [on paper] outrange the main sentry damage - except no-one does it because it's not viable.

I'd like to test them with the application nerf rolled back (but not the damage one).

Can anyone remember what the old stats used to be? I'm gonna do some forum searching for the dev post that did all this.

The four most heavily used medium weapons in the game are all Heavy Missile launcher variants, as well as seven of the top eleven. Whenever we need to change something this powerful it will always be painful because so many players will have done the smart thing and flocked to the best game mechanic. If it feels like CCP nerfs you a lot that's just a sign that you're doing it right and getting good at staying on top of the best trends so pat yourself on the back.

This is before my time. But I believe that missiles actually used to use this mechanic as a way for frigates to "get under the guns". Then CCP switched to the current formula as a way of distinguishing missiles from turrets. If you check missile stats, they still have an agility stat.

TBH, heavies have sucked since the medium weapon rebalance of 2013. They were far far over-nerfed instead of fixing the ships that were abusing them. Now compared to medium long range turrets, they are absolutely worthless.

Don't get me wrong. Rails are actually viable now. But there really was no reason to nerf heavies so much. I think they just need some damage restored to put them back into a viable place.

Stuff comparing turrets and missiles namely the use of tracking computers/enhancers

Caracal cant lock passed 72km, maximising tank is going to be tough with 3 mids down for prop/TP/SeBo and 2 rigs down for what....a couple of hundred dps if you're lucky since the painter is in falloff too :) ?


It's not the ishtar - there is a reason slippery petes do not use missiles.