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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1050
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Posted - 2015.01.09 19:20:12 -
[121] - Quote
Soraellion wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:From CCP Basically graphing what weapons and ship types have been most responsible for all damage done in PVP over the past year. http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg
Look at all those missile chuckers representing. That graph is misleading. It specifies all the different missiles types but on the other hand piles all the other weapon systems in one group. OF COURSE that is going to show heavy missiles (or any other missile type) are under used. If they would break up "hybrids" into "light blasters, light rails, medium blaster, medium rails" etc etc then that would create a different picture. Or, conversely, pile all the missile types onto one and then see how that works out. Not saying it would suddenly sway it the other way but this is just a silly and misleading representation.
Quote: [GÇô]CCP_QuantCCP[S] 6 points 2 hours ago I wondered the same, I grouped by the group name of the typeID and it seems this is how it is in the database. I thought about grouping them manually but CCP_Cognac said no :) blame him
From Reddit.
But we can work around that. Adding up all the missile damages based on the values of the color coding and lumping them together as Missile Damage shows 1) Drones 2) Hybrids 3) Projectile 4) Laser 5) Missiles.
With the vast majority of all missile damage coming from a single source. SB Torps. |

Soraellion
6
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Posted - 2015.01.09 19:22:19 -
[122] - Quote
afkalt wrote:You realise it's split by ship, or are you telling me undersized guns is a thing?
It's specifying missiles from rockets all the way to citadels. So while it's perhaps useful to figure how the different missiles types are represented it's misleading (to the average viewer anyway) in total representation. |

Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1050
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Posted - 2015.01.09 19:24:21 -
[123] - Quote
Soraellion wrote:afkalt wrote:You realise it's split by ship, or are you telling me undersized guns is a thing? It's specifying missiles from rockets all the way to citadels. So while it's perhaps useful to figure how the different missiles types are represented it's misleading (to the average viewer anyway) in total representation.
Well its a good thing people who aren't average, and know what they are talking about are capable of deciphering the graph and understand that on every single ship level Missiles are woefully underrepresented...and why are they under represented...
Because they are ****.
Lone exception of course being the SB. |

Soraellion
6
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Posted - 2015.01.09 19:29:36 -
[124] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:But we can work around that. Adding up all the missile damages based on the values of the color coding and lumping them together as Missile Damage shows 1) Drones 2) Hybrids 3) Projectile 4) Laser 5) Missiles.
With the vast majority of all missile damage coming from a single source. SB Torps.
About the only misleading thing is Drones, because nearly every hull cruiser and up has a drone bay.
Sure, that makes sense but given the rather course legend and visualisation it's not really that easy. again, not saying that this would completely change the graph (it wouldn't, missiles are underused in lol blob fleets) but in and of itself it's misleading. Still, just because current blob inbred fleet meta doesn't use missiles doesn't mean they're inherently bad.
Don't get me wrong btw, I'm not going against just for the heck of it but I'm scared shitless of going back to a buffed lol range, lol easy to use, ****** proof weapon system fitted to ****** proof lol ship that will just blot out the sun, again. They're too easy to use with too much EHP and (if buffed) too powerful. If they'd be buffed to have their average applied dps to be even remotely on par to paper turret dps we'd see hundreds of fleets with clown drakes again. And no one wants that, I do hope. |

afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
661
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Posted - 2015.01.09 19:37:45 -
[125] - Quote
Agreed but I think that's fairly unlikely given the resist nerf, HP nerf and the loss of a launcher. They don't need more range either (IMO). I genuinely don't see it being a danger of a return to 2011
And if I'm wrong my preference is to fix missiles and nerfbat the drake - too many hulls have been left outside in the cold because of it (well today it's because of fear of its legacy). |

Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1050
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Posted - 2015.01.09 19:40:54 -
[126] - Quote
Soraellion wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:But we can work around that. Adding up all the missile damages based on the values of the color coding and lumping them together as Missile Damage shows 1) Drones 2) Hybrids 3) Projectile 4) Laser 5) Missiles.
With the vast majority of all missile damage coming from a single source. SB Torps.
About the only misleading thing is Drones, because nearly every hull cruiser and up has a drone bay. Sure, that makes sense but given the rather course legend and visualisation it's not really that easy. again, not saying that this would completely change the graph (it wouldn't, missiles are underused in lol blob fleets) but in and of itself it's misleading. Still, just because current blob inbred fleet meta doesn't use missiles doesn't mean they're inherently bad.
Yes it does mean they are inherently bad if they weren't than the inbred blob fleets as you call them would be using them more. Like they did a few years back when HML were actually imbalanced vs the rest of the mid range weapons, and the drake was heavily superior in function and cost efficiency vs all other mid sized ships.
The fact that there are no fleet doctrines based on, in this case heavy missiles, but missiles in general should sound very large alarms in your head.
I mean all you have to do is look at the graphs I provided yesterday and this one, **** this one only reinforces what I said yesterday. |

Soraellion
6
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Posted - 2015.01.09 20:00:05 -
[127] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Agreed but I think that's fairly unlikely given the resist nerf, HP nerf and the loss of a launcher. They don't need more range either (IMO). I genuinely don't see it being a danger of a return to 2011
And if I'm wrong my preference is to fix missiles and nerfbat the drake - too many hulls have been left outside in the cold because of it (well today it's because of fear of its legacy).
It has too much EHP; Too high shield HP, too many midslots AND a resist bonus. It's too good to be let loose. Drop base shield HP so that when fitted it'd be in line with other BC would help. And then we get to HML who when buffed would be entirely too good for the range and pros they have, which have been named a dozen times. You simply can not give them similar dps.
Mario Putzo wrote:Yes it does mean they are inherently bad if they weren't than the inbred blob fleets as you call them would be using them more..
No, blob fleet doctrines are about counters. Just because something doesn't counter the current top dog doesn't mean it's bad, it's just not the most obvious counter at that moment. |

Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1050
|
Posted - 2015.01.09 20:04:56 -
[128] - Quote
Soraellion wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Yes it does mean they are inherently bad if they weren't than the inbred blob fleets as you call them would be using them more.. No, blob fleet doctrines are about counters. Just because something doesn't counter the current top dog doesn't mean it's bad, it's just not the most obvious counter at that moment.
sigh I give up. Its like talking to a wall.
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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1050
|
Posted - 2015.01.09 20:07:18 -
[129] - Quote
double post. |

TheMercenaryKing
StarFleet Enterprises Almost Awesome.
346
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Posted - 2015.01.09 20:09:54 -
[130] - Quote
I dislike the idea, more damage over time doesn't make sense or sit well with me. I think it would be greatly abused if it did.
While it helps snipers, things like the barghest would be super powerful, it seems kiting tengus would be way more powerful than they are. |
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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1050
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Posted - 2015.01.09 20:16:37 -
[131] - Quote
TheMercenaryKing wrote:I dislike the idea, more damage over time doesn't make sense or sit well with me. I think it would be greatly abused if it did.
While it helps snipers, things like the barghest would be super powerful, it seems kiting tengus would be way more powerful than they are.
Agreed the idea is not well thought out. Still doesn't change the fact Heavy Missiles are the worst possible mid sized weapon you can use at any range above 10K in pretty much any generatable conflict scenario. |

Soraellion
6
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Posted - 2015.01.09 21:20:56 -
[132] - Quote
Because it has too much range while not having range related performance gaps. |

Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1051
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Posted - 2015.01.09 21:36:46 -
[133] - Quote
Soraellion wrote:Because it has too much range while not having range related performance gaps. This has already been demonstrated as false.
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Soraellion
6
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Posted - 2015.01.09 21:51:38 -
[134] - Quote
No it hasn't, there are no performance gaps based on range and as such it's versatile which is a plus, so it needs a con to make up for it. you want HML to do more dps or apply more damage? Then it needs to have its base range slashed, could be made up for by morphing precision missiles into range ones to help it achieve more range but base 60km without range performance issues is very good. |

Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1051
|
Posted - 2015.01.09 22:24:54 -
[135] - Quote
Soraellion wrote:No it hasn't, there are no performance gaps based on range and as such it's versatile which is a plus, so it needs a con to make up for it. you want HML to do more dps or apply more damage? Then it needs to have its base range slashed, could be made up for by morphing precision missiles into range ones to help it achieve more range but base 60km without range performance issues is very good.
Ok humor me what range performance gaps are you talking about.
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Soraellion
6
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Posted - 2015.01.09 22:31:37 -
[136] - Quote
How about this:
- slash base range from ~60 (with skill bonuses) to 40km. use stats that will increase missile speed by about 20% of current - change HML range bonus on caracal and NH so they can hit out to ~55km, not affecting HAM range - change tengu HML range bonus so it reaches ~75km, not affecting HAM range - change cerb HML range to 100-120km, not affecting HAM range - other HML ships to be determined
- increase explosion velocity by about 25-30%, this diminishes dps loss due to target speed - increase painter optimal range to 60km - change precision into range bonused ammo, now you can overcome the lack of range at the cost of application
Now you have a weapon system that lacks moronic range while still retaining it's MASSIVE upsides and now applies decent damage, which can be increased further by a painter with increased performance in both application (explosion velocity is now less of an issue) and range.
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Soraellion
6
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Posted - 2015.01.09 22:38:52 -
[137] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Soraellion wrote:No it hasn't, there are no performance gaps based on range and as such it's versatile which is a plus, so it needs a con to make up for it. you want HML to do more dps or apply more damage? Then it needs to have its base range slashed, could be made up for by morphing precision missiles into range ones to help it achieve more range but base 60km without range performance issues is very good. Ok humor me what range performance gaps are you talking about.
...
That bell graph you get when you use turrets and it's not zero transversal, you know... basic stuff. |

afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
663
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Posted - 2015.01.09 22:44:11 -
[138] - Quote
Isnt that the line that's over the missile line from 10-lock range?
Yup, sure sucks. |

Soraellion
6
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Posted - 2015.01.09 22:45:56 -
[139] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Isnt that the line that's over the missile line from 10-lock range?
Yup, sure sucks.
Stop lying. The more hyperbole, straw man and nonsense you spew the less you're helping your cause. |

afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
663
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Posted - 2015.01.09 22:55:32 -
[140] - Quote
You know you can change ammo, right? That ships dont teleport from 70km to 30km? That the shooter can move? |
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Soraellion
6
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Posted - 2015.01.09 23:00:10 -
[141] - Quote
afkalt wrote:You know you can change ammo, right? That ships dont teleport from 70km to 30km? That the shooter can move?
no but other ships do, especially in fleet pvp. I'm not really interested in changing ammo every time the FC calls out a target that's 15km away (range wise) from the last one. And it's the same in PVE: not having to change ammo because you decide that instead of shooting the last target that was 60km away you should now really take care of the ones at 15km, is a massive boon.
Do you even EVE? |

afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
663
|
Posted - 2015.01.09 23:03:40 -
[142] - Quote
So because you're lazy and refuse to optimise, we should all have crap missiles?
Well, I say have crap missiles, all the good people use guns. It's no coincidence.
edit: Maybe your FCs are just awful. It happens. |

Soraellion
6
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Posted - 2015.01.09 23:06:34 -
[143] - Quote
Good job on outing yourself as a clown, too stupid to poop. You're not to be taken serious and I shall do exactly that.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
663
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Posted - 2015.01.09 23:09:10 -
[144] - Quote
>>Overwhelming evidence from CCP, in game and damage charts be damned, missiles are fine!!!!!
You're still scared of drakes. |

Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1051
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Posted - 2015.01.09 23:15:54 -
[145] - Quote
Just a troll at this point I think.
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scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Cirrius Technologies O X I D E
353
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Posted - 2015.01.09 23:16:43 -
[146] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Just a troll at this point I think.
Agreed. Although, we could just be biased...  |

afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
663
|
Posted - 2015.01.09 23:27:02 -
[147] - Quote
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Just a troll at this point I think.
Agreed. Although, we could just be biased... 
We, along with everyone else sane in eve are ALL WRONG!
ALL OF US!!!
Or uh....not.
 |

Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1051
|
Posted - 2015.01.09 23:54:01 -
[148] - Quote
You know looking at the long range end of things. I think all CCP should do is revert the explosion radius change they made (12% I think) That would give the drake about 20 more DPS which would bump its average into the middle of all those Turrets. Against a non AB Target it would gain about 30DPS but as we established a couple pages back with shorter range ammo (0-40K) Turrets dump all over the drake
I say revert the Explosion Radius change is about all that needs to be done here. |

Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
449
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Posted - 2015.01.10 05:11:07 -
[149] - Quote
I when I originally ran the numbers I noticed a trend. Light missiles lose 30% dps to a moving target, heavy missiles lose 44% and cruises lose nothing. Following that trend heavies ahould have been losing only 15% right? In my mind there's no other way to look at it. When you lose more applied damage than both the smaller weapon system and the larger despite being outranged by at least double in the latter case to be brought back in line to being inbetween the two is the logical request.
Like what raw missile stats would that require for heavy missiles anyway? 50% more explosion velocity? It's only to 150 after all not the gross 220+ of light missiles.
12% lower explosion radius would give you what 97m?
Join channel Aussies in space to chat with AU/NZ players
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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
1052
|
Posted - 2015.01.10 05:26:13 -
[150] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote: 12% lower explosion radius would give you what 97m?
Somewhere around that ya. Should drop the "damage bleed" to around 30% or so. In line with other missiles, and more in line with other turrets but still about 30-35% behind peak damage. But since Turrets can be TEd that seems about right.
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