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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:38:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: EvilNate
Personally, I think getting a data interface from 0.0 could be pretty cool, seeing as it's infinite runs, it makes sense to put in a bit of effort to get it.
You can setup a contract for it for instance. You pay X amount of ISk for someone to go and get it, via anymeans, so you don't actualy have to get it yourself.
Nate.
Sounds good to me but I see another problem.
To make it clear - what I fear is the following:
1. Data interfaces are available via 0.0 only
2. Almost 100% of 0.0 is not accessible for the public, so the big alliances have full control over them
3. No one, besides the alliance guys, ever gets a data interface
4. The alliances kill everybody who tries to smuggle a data interface to those who need it - we all know that there are a lot of strange people in 0.0 who pay EUR 15,- per month just to sit at gates to wait for the strange shuttle or noob ship that lost its way so they can kill it (this is called "defending sovereignity" - I wonder if the big alliance bosses pay them their monthly fee and a full income for this, yes, second job)
5. Tech 2 prices stay high
And this is exactly what will happen. Not that I would ever want a data interface, I don't care about industrial stuff. But I want cheaper tech 2 items - and the only guys that will get them are those who don't need it if Murphys law will prove correct here once again.
On the other hand, maybe the guys @ CCP do know about the politics and the situation in Eve (I'm not sure if they are interested because otherwise there would be much more tech 2 bpos around) and if they add 1 + 1 they will get to the conclusion that we need data interfaces in empire space. 
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Ileri Vahraq
Mercury Exploration
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:43:00 -
[32]
I have to wonder why is this feature called "Invention". It takes previously existing stuff and, if you're lucky, turns them into other previously existing stuff - it creates nothing new or original.
"Reverse Engineering" was far more accurate if still not quite right.
I can't help being strongly annoyed by phrases like "can't invent covetor to hulk" that make no sense whatsoever :)
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Traxman
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:46:00 -
[33]
Dont forget that you need Encrytion skills and the Inventor skill
itself, both of them increase the chanse to get a result.
It will be intrested the more info we get about this, better to
get facts before we start swear about it.
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Bermag
Point-Zero
Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:52:00 -
[34]
1)Where have you got that data interfaces are in 0.0 only? The blog about invention only say that they are on "profession sites" which are hidden and you need touse the new exploring stuff to find.
2) 0.0 aint that hard to get into. A lot of possibilities to get in/out
3) Data interfaces are not consumed so you can use them over and over again
4) Even if data interfaces would be in 0.0 there will most certainly be a lot availbale for sale anyway. Lot of people will nto have the skills or interest to gather all the stuff needed and would be selling them for some quick ISK instead.
5) Even so, the more stuff available in 0.0 the better. Adds more stuff to fight over. Just don't make it all related to true security, we need some more stuff available in all the systems which today are not that good (which is a majority of 0.0 systems)
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:02:00 -
[35]
From what I have read of the process (all I could find ) it is very involved and need a good number of resurces. Some are available in empire (not the encription skill books, and data interfaces who will be dropped by sites you can find only by Exploration [survey 5]).
But most of the data are missing. What is the RP cost of a datacore? 100 rp/day is about the max for a researcher with the standing to get levl 4 agents and maximied science skill (before the field multiplier). So if a datacore require 3000 RP it is 1 month of play for an EXPERIENCED player with great standings for a researcher (usually not a combat pilot, and spending most of his time doing something different from doing transport missions). Much more for a player at his first research agent (at 40 RP/day (lvl 1 agent, scentific skill 5) 75 days of research. Apparently the datacores degrade with usage. So this is one of the critical points. If I should spend 1 month of research to get a datacore and then I can use it for 10 research I am not very happy.
In some past thread the DEV spoken of quality of the item (not mineral components) to get the bonus in the "invention" process. It is more logic as often the material value isn't in line with the increased quality of the items, but as the best items are usually rat dropping, again it is a resource best found in lower security systems.
All in all the sistem, as presented so far can be wort it to produce for personal use, or some friend, but not for some decent output.
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EvilNate
Caldari
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:43:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Queen Hades
Sounds good to me but I see another problem.
To make it clear - what I fear is the following:
1. Data interfaces are available via 0.0 only
2. Almost 100% of 0.0 is not accessible for the public, so the big alliances have full control over them
3. No one, besides the alliance guys, ever gets a data interface
4. The alliances kill everybody who tries to smuggle a data interface to those who need it - we all know that there are a lot of strange people in 0.0 who pay EUR 15,- per month just to sit at gates to wait for the strange shuttle or noob ship that lost its way so they can kill it (this is called "defending sovereignity" - I wonder if the big alliance bosses pay them their monthly fee and a full income for this, yes, second job)
5. Tech 2 prices stay high
And this is exactly what will happen. Not that I would ever want a data interface, I don't care about industrial stuff. But I want cheaper tech 2 items - and the only guys that will get them are those who don't need it if Murphys law will prove correct here once again.
On the other hand, maybe the guys @ CCP do know about the politics and the situation in Eve (I'm not sure if they are interested because otherwise there would be much more tech 2 bpos around) and if they add 1 + 1 they will get to the conclusion that we need data interfaces in empire space.
There are plenty of 0.0 spaces that are not controlled by any alliance, nor can it be controlled by an alliance. Curse, Stain, Geminate, etc. All the new ones that are coming out too. Once you are in these regoins its not too bad. Just get a scout for scouting camps and you good to go, or a covops for moving stuff, there are plenty of ways of going about doing.
But like I said, created a contract and make it some one elses problem.
Nate.
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Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:58:00 -
[37]
Originally by: EvilNate
Originally by: Queen Hades
Sounds good to me but I see another problem.
To make it clear - what I fear is the following:
1. Data interfaces are available via 0.0 only
2. Almost 100% of 0.0 is not accessible for the public, so the big alliances have full control over them
3. No one, besides the alliance guys, ever gets a data interface
4. The alliances kill everybody who tries to smuggle a data interface to those who need it - we all know that there are a lot of strange people in 0.0 who pay EUR 15,- per month just to sit at gates to wait for the strange shuttle or noob ship that lost its way so they can kill it (this is called "defending sovereignity" - I wonder if the big alliance bosses pay them their monthly fee and a full income for this, yes, second job)
5. Tech 2 prices stay high
And this is exactly what will happen. Not that I would ever want a data interface, I don't care about industrial stuff. But I want cheaper tech 2 items - and the only guys that will get them are those who don't need it if Murphys law will prove correct here once again.
On the other hand, maybe the guys @ CCP do know about the politics and the situation in Eve (I'm not sure if they are interested because otherwise there would be much more tech 2 bpos around) and if they add 1 + 1 they will get to the conclusion that we need data interfaces in empire space.
There are plenty of 0.0 spaces that are not controlled by any alliance, nor can it be controlled by an alliance. Curse, Stain, Geminate, etc. All the new ones that are coming out too. Once you are in these regoins its not too bad. Just get a scout for scouting camps and you good to go, or a covops for moving stuff, there are plenty of ways of going about doing.
But like I said, created a contract and make it some one elses problem.
Nate.
So there is really 0.0 space that is open to everyone? 
The new regions also can't be claimed?
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Sunaria
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:00:00 -
[38]
I think you guys worry about the wrong issues except one poster. Data interfaces no worries, someone will find them and put them on the market. But the cost of the datacores, who not degrade by the way but are totally destroyed when an invention job is completed OR FAILED. Like pointed out you only have like 100 rp/day if a datacore is worth 1000 rp you need to have two agents running 20 days for all the needed datacores. (you need 2 of each datacore in the specific research field pro invention job, at least for shield hardners , I did my research). Ayhow that would mean 20 days for maybe a failed invention job and thats what will kill invention. But this is speculation since invention doesn't work yet on sisi
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solidshot
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:11:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Queen Hades
So there is really 0.0 space that is open to everyone?
The new regions also can't be claimed?
the new regions can be claimed but i believe there will be no stations in these new regions so to start with everyone will have to haul in the ammo ect that they need and live at pos's until someone puts up a outpost
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Andargor theWise
Disbelievers of Fate
The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:26:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Queen Hades
So there is really 0.0 space that is open to everyone?
The new regions also can't be claimed?
This thread is about Invention, not your personal grudge about the perceived or real difficulty you have in accessing 0.0.
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Got grief?
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Kanuo Ashkeron
Eve Defence Force
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:19:00 -
[41]
What really interests me is, how many datacores will you get for rp? Or the other way round, how many rp will datacores cost?
Or how many 3-4 lvl r&d agents does someone need to be able to produce a serious amount of items per week? Is it viable for only one character or do you need a whole corporation of r&d agent runners to do it?
Kanuo
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Karodnotos
Caldari
SOM
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Kanuo Ashkeron
ad 2) Have you ever heard of NAGA?
Kanuo
no, can anybody explain please?
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Eve Wiki |
Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:49:00 -
[43]
Wow... so much wrong info in this thread... It's like half the people here didn't even read the Invention Dev Blogs... 
Skill:
The main Invention Skill will most likely be seeded on Market.
The Encryption Skills you get from Hacking/Archelogy which is done in hi-sec COSMOS and completely safe.
The other Research Skills are agent rewards and are really common and cheap to find these days.
Datacores:
Datacores are bought from Research Agents in exchange for RP. You can see this screenshot for an example of how many datacores are needed for some items.
Data Interfaces:
These are infinite use so you only need 1 of them. There are 12 types so once you have all 12 you can invent anything and not have to worry about getting any more. No idea where they come from but even if they are only available in 0.0, people would still sell them in empire space like everything else is...
Can a Mod please clean up this thread and delete all the posts from the idiot who is complaining that only people in 0.0 will be able to do Invention. Thanks.
_______________________________
It's great not being Amarr, isn't it? 
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:54:00 -
[44]
Now than, the important questions are:
1) How many RP does a datacore cost?
2) What is the highest chance of success you can get with max Invention, Encryption, and [Specific] Research skills?
_______________________________
It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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James Draekn
X.E.N.O.
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:42:00 -
[45]
Still a broken system since we still have to use agents (which ARE NOT player driven).
The way it should work is you get your BPC, datacores,
Invention Skill, Encryption Skills, Research Skills, Data Interfaces and Datacores (from Research Agents in exchange for RP OR isk). Allowing people to purchase the datacores for isk creates another way to make a isk sink in-game, and lets people that just started the research tree to have a chance at datacores.
Once you have everything you take it either to a agent or your mobile lab. You can ask a agent to help you research the BPC up to T2 (a agent being 10-15% faster/more successful). Or you can research the item ALL BY YOURSELF, which is what this game needs. Player driven economy. Making invention slots only availible to reseach agent stations limits the affect this change is supposed to make. Not to mention, why go to 0.0 when all the invention and agents are in empire. Since agents don't reside at player built stations. I would love the ability to invent stuff for my corp mates to use, or myself. But, if I have to wait 4-10 months for a lab to open up, just to attempt this, why bother.
Please let the little guy in on invention by letting our mobile labs invent. The items are already out there, so us inventing/reverse engineering them won't need a agent from the corp that built them originally to actually help us get a poor copy.
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Zarta Blastaphart
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:15:00 -
[46]
Invention ? Hardly !
Reverse Engineering ? Possibly !
This whole scheme has no basis in a player driven market/economy and is IMHO flawed.
Those with T2 BPO's are rich and will only get richer, those that don't get to feed on scraps.
I wonder how many will be willing to scamper across the universe collecting the bits and pieces only to get a flawed BPC ad nauseum.
I'd rather see invention be something incredibly difficult to accomplish, and yet offer appropriate rewards for those that succeed, i.e. a BPO.
MHO
Regards
Zarta
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Kanuo Ashkeron
Eve Defence Force
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:18:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Eilie
Wow... so much wrong info in this thread... It's like half the people here didn't even read the Invention Dev Blogs...
...
Can a Mod please clean up this thread and delete all the posts from the idiot who is complaining that only people in 0.0 will be able to do Invention. Thanks.
Why are you complaining about people not reading a dev blog, when you even donŠt bother to read a two pages thread? All things you posted, and the things you asked in your second post were already posted or asked in this thread.
Kanuo
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Emo Jelli
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:18:00 -
[48]
This thread is funny.
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Manuka
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:24:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Manuka on 26/10/2006 22:24:33
So what wanted CCP archieve with Invention?
1) Break monopolies
2) Create a multi-tier invention chain (multiple people involved)
3) DonŠt nerf the T2 bpo owners too much
4) Create a system, where Flavour-of-the-month things will dynamically compensated, so that they will not heavily overpriced.
Maybe I missed a few points, but i think the invention system covers all of this points quite well. Other systems, which for example could hand out a bpo, donŠt do that.
Manuka
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:46:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Kanuo Ashkeron
Originally by: Eilie
Wow... so much wrong info in this thread... It's like half the people here didn't even read the Invention Dev Blogs...
...
Can a Mod please clean up this thread and delete all the posts from the idiot who is complaining that only people in 0.0 will be able to do Invention. Thanks.
Why are you complaining about people not reading a dev blog, when you even donŠt bother to read a two pages thread? All things you posted, and the things you asked in your second post were already posted or asked in this thread.
Kanuo
/sarcasm on
NO, REALLY?
/sarcasm off
Since the thread was full of alot of bad info (like people saying datacores and encryption skills came from 0.0 only), I put all the good info into one post so that people could find it easier. I guess trying to make a helpful post on these forums is a bad thing and that most people prefer to be misinformed. Well you know what they say: Ignorance is bliss! 
_______________________________
It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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WhiskeyDP
The Druids
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Posted - 2006.10.26 23:46:00 -
[51]
after 3,5 years and all t1 bpo's are still not avaible on open market. wonder why they did seed energized adaptive nano membrane 1 bpo on market when t2 was seeded but not all the other "rare" t1 bpo's. however i dont think ccp will ever sort so u will see those rare bpo's on normal market since they seeded those thru r&d later on..
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eve is not all about isk, its about enjoying the game. lots of iskies is not the same as enjoying the game |
Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2006.10.27 00:11:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Queen Hades
To make it clear - what I fear is the following:
1. Data interfaces are available via 0.0 only
2. Almost 100% of 0.0 is not accessible for the public, so the big alliances have full control over them
3. No one, besides the alliance guys, ever gets a data interface
4. The alliances kill everybody who tries to smuggle a data interface to those who need it - we all know that there are a lot of strange people in 0.0 who pay EUR 15,- per month just to sit at gates to wait for the strange shuttle or noob ship that lost its way so they can kill it (this is called "defending sovereignity" - I wonder if the big alliance bosses pay them their monthly fee and a full income for this, yes, second job)
I have experience of the 10/10 complex in WO- deep in -V- space. It was, after a burst of outpost construction, surrounded by systems populated by -V- members, and 15 jumps away from the nearest entry point in N-RAEL, which was frequently camped by coalition forces.
Almost all complex runs went to Red Alliance.
How? They were more devoted to it, logged a team of 4 characters on at the right times every day, and eventually jumped the loot out by carrier.
"Claiming" of space is just not airtight at all. Even if it's not totally open to people unwilling to PvP, it is open to all sorts of random PvP corps; mercenaries, pirates, smugglers like Es and Whiz, etc.
I fully predict you'll be able to buy data interfaces on the market in Jita a week after they're launched. Heck, if I'm wrong I'll go out and get you one myself!
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Dux Dar
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Posted - 2006.10.27 00:22:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Zarta Blastaphart
Invention ? Hardly !
Reverse Engineering ? Possibly !
This whole scheme has no basis in a player driven market/economy and is IMHO flawed.
Those with T2 BPO's are rich and will only get richer, those that don't get to feed on scraps.
I wonder how many will be willing to scamper across the universe collecting the bits and pieces only to get a flawed BPC ad nauseum.
I'd rather see invention be something incredibly difficult to accomplish, and yet offer appropriate rewards for those that succeed, i.e. a BPO.
MHO
-"Those with T2 BPO's are rich and will only get richer, those that don't get to feed on scraps."
What i fear is that this is correct (and not that people who cant hack it in 0.0 space might not get more stuff withouth any risk).
However,i will be "scampering across the universe collecting the bits and pieces only to get a flawed BPC ad nauseum". Just because after doing it enough times, i will be justified in ranting and whining for the destruction of all T2 bpo's, as the bpo owner "dont work" for it, thereby hopefully one day increase my own income even more at the exspence of the lottery winners (hey, dont blame me, economy is also war )
And guess what, if enough of us does this, CCP might actually listen (at least T3 will probably only be avialable through invention... in 3-4 years i guess).
The BPO owners is however well avare of this, so expect attacks on the research system at every opportunity, and lengthy rants on why it wont/dont work.
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Illuminaty
ISS Logistics
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 01:43:00 -
[54]
Inorder to have a proper discussion, something needs to get cleared up.
0.0 access.
It is _very_ easy to get un-authorized access to 0.0 space. Pirates do it _all_ the time. So either its possible, or pirates are ninjas with magical powers.
These '23/7 uber camps of flaming 100% wtfpwnage' are total urban legands.
Requiring one item from 0.0 space that can be used forever isn't too much of a burden. Infact, it _should_ be more fun to get it as an 'empire citizen' than a 0.0 resident. All Indiania Jones style and stuff. Except replace the boulders with bubbles.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 02:14:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Illuminaty
Requiring one item from 0.0 space that can be used forever isn't too much of a burden. Infact, it _should_ be more fun to get it as an 'empire citizen' than a 0.0 resident. All Indiania Jones style and stuff. Except replace the boulders with bubbles.
The idea is that if you can't get it, you can certainly buy it from someone who can. It's the same for the encryption skillbooks currently, you're essentially paying for the fact you can't get your own and someone else can.
The bottom line is that it will promote trade. The only detail to work out is the cost of the items that you can only find in 0.0, which is something the community will settle on based on rough supply and demand.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.10.27 08:51:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Eilie
Skill:
The main Invention Skill will most likely be seeded on Market.
In the 40 million range probaly, from the prerequisites.
Originally by: Eilie
The Encryption Skills you get from Hacking/Archelogy which is done in hi-sec COSMOS and completely safe.
Safe? Maybe from players. Try hacking cans in a sawrm of BS whit a BC.
Now they go for 100 millions each, probably they will rise in price.
Originally by: Eilie
Data Interfaces:
These are infinite use so you only need 1 of them. There are 12 types so once you have all 12 you can invent anything and not have to worry about getting any more. No idea where they come from but even if they are only available in 0.0, people would still sell them in empire space like everything else is...
Again at least 100 million unless they are a common drop, I suspect the price will be even higher.
So to start, beside the the investment in BPC, you need at least 350 millions to get the basic skills and items.
So I dubt there will be "casual" dabblers in invention. It is a (not so) mini profession requiring a good investment in isk, SP and time. Again it will do litle to reduce the price of T2 items, if not the most otrangeusly overpriced.
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Kipkruide
Quantum Dynamics
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Posted - 2006.10.27 08:56:00 -
[57]
well you forget that 90% of t2 prints are complete crap, only a couple are actually worth producing, a few items, some ships and guns. Where hacs are by far and almost exclusively way overprices, + cloaks and some guns. So everyone is gonna be inventing those few items leaving the other 90% alone. If you calculate that in i think prices will prob start dropping a bit.
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Kanuo Ashkeron
Eve Defence Force
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 08:58:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
...
Again it will do litle to reduce the price of T2 items, if not the most otrangeusly overpriced.
But thatŠs the point. CCP said more than once, that they donŠt want to bring additional competition in the "normal" priced T2 items, but to the really overpriced items. Invention should compensate price spikes, not reduce the base price level of T2 items.
Kanuo
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Mephysto
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Posted - 2006.10.27 09:32:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Eilie
Now than, the important questions are:
1) How many RP does a datacore cost?
2) What is the highest chance of success you can get with max Invention, Encryption, and [Specific] Research skills?
1) this value is not finalised yet, but a few hundred to a couple of thousand RP's for a datacore, with a maximum number being able to be purchased in a given day.
2) varies wildly depending on the bpc and other components used.
Ok, so I'm not helping much with these answers am I?
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Bermag
Point-Zero
Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:43:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Mephysto
Originally by: Eilie
Now than, the important questions are:
1) How many RP does a datacore cost?
2) What is the highest chance of success you can get with max Invention, Encryption, and [Specific] Research skills?
1) this value is not finalised yet, but a few hundred to a couple of thousand RP's for a datacore, with a maximum number being able to be purchased in a given day.
2) varies wildly depending on the bpc and other components used.
Ok, so I'm not helping much with these answers am I?
Hehe well at least something. I guess the more expensive (in form of RP) will be the T2 ships.
However I have one big question. What are you going to do with cloaks? There are no T1 versions of these. Covert op cloaks -> require Improved cloak -> require prototype cloak.
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