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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
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Mephysto
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:23:00 -
[1]
Ok, so I know its not working on Singularity yet, but discuss it here please.
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starship enginer
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:30:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Mephysto Ok, so I know its not working on Singularity yet, but discuss it here please.
want to give us some detailed info first, or what do we discuss? when it will be out?
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Cornhullio
Amarr Amesha Spentaz
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:41:00 -
[3]
Are we going to get to play with this before it goes live??
i am sat waiting and ready to play When confronted with a problem - i find it more easily solved by asking the question - "How would the Lone Ranger deal with this?" |
Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:41:00 -
[4]
Problem with invention:
1. People in 0.0 don't need it, they already have the BPOs 2. People in empire space would need it but they can't use it because you need to offer yourself for ganking by those selfrighteous nbsi - snobs to get some of the items 3. So it won't solve the problem with 400 million isk for a HAC and stuff
I think the way it is implemented now one can call it a barrel burst. It solves not a single problem and it is not usable for those who would need it.
My solution:
Make all items for it available in empire space, maybe the datacores (or whatever it is that comes from 0.0) with limited runs or so. But please do anything to stop that extreme advantages old players with tech 2 bpos have over the rest of us and bring the tech 2 ship and item prices back to a reasonable level.
Make invention something for everyone, not only for a small elite that already has enough of everything. Thanks.
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Zakgram
Apocalyptic Raiders Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:42:00 -
[5]
I wonder if we'll be able to create the missing modules out of it. E.g. SPR II - since there aren't any SPR II bpo's but invention should allow the T1 bpc one to convert to a T2 one.
If not will there be big health warning on bpos that can't be turned into t2 ones? It seems a shame to spend the isk on a bpo, spend the 2-3 weeks finding a lab slot to research & copy, then to discover it's useless for the purposes?
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Hansoloo
Supero Omnia
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Posted - 2006.10.26 10:56:00 -
[6]
I love to be able to make cargo exp 2's with it...
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Paigan
Amarr Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:06:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Hansoloo I love to be able to make cargo exp 2's with it...
i doubt that it will be possible to invent T2 stuff that is not in the game yet. -- This game is still in beta stage |
Hansoloo
Supero Omnia
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:06:00 -
[8]
maybe the reason there not in the game yet was becouse of this :)
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Jameroz
Independent Frontiers Chorus of Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:11:00 -
[9]
Are mobile labs getting slots? What happens when I try to invent 10 run bpc... do I get 10 run t2 bpc, increased odds to get one or just use one run from the t1 bpc? What skills are required for invention skill? Where do we get the decrypters? What's the formula that ME and PE transfer?
So many questions, so little answers __________
Jameroz Independent Frontiers is recruiting |
Paigan
Amarr Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:13:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Paigan on 26/10/2006 11:13:53
Originally by: Hansoloo maybe the reason there not in the game yet was becouse of this :)
i think the reason they're not in the game yet is a) most of them couldn't really have the T2 fitting drawbacks that other modules have
b) that for example all the owners of local hull expander will turn into mass-whining and mass-petitioning kiddies when their 40mil items massively drop in price over night by getting almost unneeded.
Otherwise, they would already have introduced those modules in the game long time ago, i think. -- This game is still in beta stage |
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Hansoloo
Supero Omnia
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Paigan Edited by: Paigan on 26/10/2006 11:13:53
Originally by: Hansoloo maybe the reason there not in the game yet was becouse of this :)
i think the reason they're not in the game yet is a) most of them couldn't really have the T2 fitting drawbacks that other modules have
b) that for example all the owners of local hull expander will turn into mass-whining and mass-petitioning kiddies when their 40mil items massively drop in price over night by getting almost unneeded.
Otherwise, they would already have introduced those modules in the game long time ago, i think.
we can give them whining kiddies, a fast kick in the ....
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solidshot
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:25:00 -
[12]
I want to know how CCP thinks we will be able to create cloak bpc's using invention when the t1 bpo's we need to use the invention process are mainly owned by a cartel that will surely not sell any bpc's on the market to the general public thus making it impossible to create t2 cloaks using invention?
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Hansoloo
Supero Omnia
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:26:00 -
[13]
same for some of the more rare t1 items in the game....
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Caldo
Band Of Frogs
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jameroz Are mobile labs getting slots? What happens when I try to invent 10 run bpc... do I get 10 run t2 bpc, increased odds to get one or just use one run from the t1 bpc? What skills are required for invention skill? Where do we get the decrypters? What's the formula that ME and PE transfer?
So many questions, so little answers
1 ) would hope so
2 ) I would guess from this that the decryptor is the prime modifier for the potential increase in runs from the T1 BPC..
'You also have the option of adding a so-called Decryptor to the job. Decryptors modify the job, for instance they can increase the chance of success or increase the number of runs you get.' - Clover
3) hmm at a guess..
4) 'On a side note, the same profession sites can also be harvested to get Datacores, Decryptors, skills and other relevant stuff.' Clover
5) See answer 3.
All the info i can squeeze from the devblogs i'm afraid.
Oh and from the same blog Hansoloo
Everything in the game that has a tech II equivalent can be invented. Modules, rigs and most ships can thus be invented.
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Lunanie
Final-Vendetta
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Posted - 2006.10.26 11:56:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Lunanie on 26/10/2006 11:57:06
Originally by: Mephysto Ok, so I know its not working on Singularity yet, but discuss it here please.
As long as it will drop the insane prices of some T2 items (especially hac's, covert op's cloak, large guns, etc) i love it
Some T2 builders just become too richt too easy because they can sell cerb's and vaga's for +250 mil
Nobody should complain if the builders of those great items just make 50%-100% profit.
And can you post some details about how this new invention thing works plz ? :)
edit: typo
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Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Queen Hades Problem with invention:
1. People in 0.0 don't need it, they already have the BPOs 2. People in empire space would need it but they can't use it because you need to offer yourself for ganking by those selfrighteous nbsi - snobs to get some of the items 3. So it won't solve the problem with 400 million isk for a HAC and stuff
I think the way it is implemented now one can call it a barrel burst. It solves not a single problem and it is not usable for those who would need it.
My solution:
Make all items for it available in empire space, maybe the datacores (or whatever it is that comes from 0.0) with limited runs or so. But please do anything to stop that extreme advantages old players with tech 2 bpos have over the rest of us and bring the tech 2 ship and item prices back to a reasonable level.
Make invention something for everyone, not only for a small elite that already has enough of everything. Thanks.
Agreeing with this, putting them in 0.0 only will really solve nothing.
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Caldo
Band Of Frogs
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:03:00 -
[17]
Aaand.. For those who havent read Clover's Blog (and I'm Sure you all have )
Linkage |
EvilNate
Caldari Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:12:00 -
[18]
Originally by: solidshot
I want to know how CCP thinks we will be able to create cloak bpc's using invention when the t1 bpo's we need to use the invention process are mainly owned by a cartel that will surely not sell any bpc's on the market to the general public thus making it impossible to create t2 cloaks using invention?
IRRC, form the invention blog (and I could be wrong, I'd need to reread it), you don't need the BPO/BPC, you need the item.
So you take a cloak, plus mods and crap and give it to your agent and he spends some time with it and eventually hands you a BPCif you are lucky.
Nate.
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Paigan
Amarr Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:13:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hansoloo
Originally by: Paigan Edited by: Paigan on 26/10/2006 11:13:53
Originally by: Hansoloo maybe the reason there not in the game yet was becouse of this :)
i think the reason they're not in the game yet is a) most of them couldn't really have the T2 fitting drawbacks that other modules have
b) that for example all the owners of local hull expander will turn into mass-whining and mass-petitioning kiddies when their 40mil items massively drop in price over night by getting almost unneeded.
Otherwise, they would already have introduced those modules in the game long time ago, i think.
we can give them whining kiddies a fast kick in the ....
point for you :-) -- This game is still in beta stage |
Mikal Drey
Angels and Demons
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:21:00 -
[20]
hey hey
need alot more info about invention TBH.
Chance to succede : will it be possible to skill and get items with enough meta quality to get 100% success ? if success rates are low then the isk sink will be to high and would become an unused feature.
BPC's based on the origionals ?? : if i had a 10 run Covetor BPC and all the req items will the BPC TII ge ALOT lower ie pop out at 1 run ? or will it be more productivce to have 10x 1runs and go for 1 run TI BPC's / this will be affected by success rates etc; ie. 10 attempts Vs 1
Data Core availability : I noticed that the rifter BPC needed Minmatar Starship Data cores and Mechanical engineering ? obviously some datacores will be region specific and the generic stuff universe wide. I havent heard anything about the availability of datacores appart rom vagueness re R&D agents and Vagueness Re wrecks. Slavaging isnt active yet either so havent had the opportunity to see what harvests.
Would like some more Dev info re Mechanics of the whole invention system.
Many thanks
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solidshot
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:23:00 -
[21]
Originally by: EvilNate
Originally by: solidshot
I want to know how CCP thinks we will be able to create cloak bpc's using invention when the t1 bpo's we need to use the invention process are mainly owned by a cartel that will surely not sell any bpc's on the market to the general public thus making it impossible to create t2 cloaks using invention?
IRRC, form the invention blog (and I could be wrong, I'd need to reread it), you don't need the BPO/BPC, you need the item.
So you take a cloak, plus mods and crap and give it to your agent and he spends some time with it and eventually hands you a BPCif you are lucky.
Nate.
I may be wrong but i was under the impresion you need a bpc of the t1 version to enter into the labs with the chance of getting a t2 version back? which if true means theres bugger all chance of getting a t2 bpc for thing like cloaks and similar?
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Caldo
Band Of Frogs
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:33:00 -
[22]
Originally by: EvilNate
Originally by: solidshot
I want to know how CCP thinks we will be able to create cloak bpc's using invention when the t1 bpo's we need to use the invention process are mainly owned by a cartel that will surely not sell any bpc's on the market to the general public thus making it impossible to create t2 cloaks using invention?
IRRC, form the invention blog (and I could be wrong, I'd need to reread it), you don't need the BPO/BPC, you need the item.
So you take a cloak, plus mods and crap and give it to your agent and he spends some time with it and eventually hands you a BPCif you are lucky.
Nate.
Yep Nate,
thats the way i read it too, but it could be read both ways..
I have a bad feeling it might mean start with either the BPC or the BPC AND a T1 item to increase said chance of success.
originally Clover-
1. You start with a Tech I BPC
2. You have the option of adding a Tech I item (of the correct type) to the job (adding a Tech II item does nothing). The better the metal-level of the item, the greater the chance of success is when using it.
Clarification and addition of information seems to be the general thrust of this thread Mephysto me ole mucker
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EvilNate
Caldari Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:48:00 -
[23]
Hrrrmmm, that sucks. So Cov-ops prices are gonna stay where they are basically.
Very sucky.
IMHO, T2 items should have information bar on them, what they need for invention. The base and nessassry item should be the T1 version + datacores, then you should have the option of adding in a BPC to increase success and random other stuff.
Basically reverse the BPC and Item roles, but give us information by examining the T2 item we want to create.
Nate.
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Saldun Zexu
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:55:00 -
[24]
mining barge bpo's/bpc's don't have invention tab. meaning can't invent covetor to hulk?
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Qelen Seastrider
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:03:00 -
[25]
As a relatively new player, I have a comment about how badly the entire blueprint system is snafued. I could live with a tiny chance of getting hold of a tech 2 bpo. I could live with having to travel all over the known universe to get bp's and materials. What drives ME into a frenzy is that you can't get blueprints for TECH 1 items. It's insane! The whole notion of not being able to get bp's for every tech 1 item in the game is totally insane. The only thing I can suppose is that the npc-only items are there to siphon ISK's out of general circulation. I'm sure someone in here will reply that all you need to do is look around for tech 1 bpo's and you will eventually find the whole set. This is total bs. I have been to every region in the game and about half of the tech 1 items have no bp's at all.
Getting into tech 2 bpo and item prices is pretty much a waste of time. The whole market is in the hip pockets of those who have been around longest. The rest of us can just ignore the whole tech 2 market, because none of us 'newb's' will ever get a shot at a bpo. Or a bpc, which makes sense. Why would someone with a choke-hold on a market give away part of his profits?
In any case, if the current situation is allowed to continue, you be certain that you will have an entire generation of high resentment players out there. I can see that it's possible to have people quitting the game, simply because they're convinced that they can never get ahead.
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EvilNate
Caldari Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Qelen Seastrider stuff about t1 bpos
Aye, I have to agree here. All T1 BPO's should be seeded on the market. This along should bring the prices down on cloaks.
Nate.
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Stein Voorhees
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:15:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Stein Voorhees on 26/10/2006 13:15:24
Originally by: Queen Hades Problem with invention:
1. People in 0.0 don't need it, they already have the BPOs 2. People in empire space would need it but they can't use it because you need to offer yourself for ganking by those selfrighteous nbsi - snobs to get some of the items 3. So it won't solve the problem with 400 million isk for a HAC and stuff
I think the way it is implemented now one can call it a barrel burst. It solves not a single problem and it is not usable for those who would need it.
My solution:
Make all items for it available in empire space, maybe the datacores (or whatever it is that comes from 0.0) with limited runs or so. But please do anything to stop that extreme advantages old players with tech 2 bpos have over the rest of us and bring the tech 2 ship and item prices back to a reasonable level.
Make invention something for everyone, not only for a small elite that already has enough of everything. Thanks.
This may not solve all the problems listed above (a good and valid list in my opinion) but how about if the 0.0 content was also located in NPC controlled regions like Syndicate or Great Wildlands (can't remember the others - sorry )? This way, you encourage people to go into 0.0 but also don't put the resources solely within the clutches of those who already have it good.
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Caldo
Band Of Frogs
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:28:00 -
[28]
Originally by: EvilNate
Originally by: Qelen Seastrider stuff about t1 bpos
Aye, I have to agree here. All T1 BPO's should be seeded on the market.
Nate.
Now THAT sounds like a plan.
Cal |
Kanuo Ashkeron
Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:53:00 -
[29]
First of all: Before posting in this thread read the Dev Blog
Originally by: Queen Hades Problem with invention:
1. People in 0.0 don't need it, they already have the BPOs 2. People in empire space would need it but they can't use it because you need to offer yourself for ganking by those selfrighteous nbsi - snobs to get some of the items 3. So it won't solve the problem with 400 million isk for a HAC and stuff
I think the way it is implemented now one can call it a barrel burst. It solves not a single problem and it is not usable for those who would need it.
My solution:
Make all items for it available in empire space, maybe the datacores (or whatever it is that comes from 0.0) with limited runs or so. But please do anything to stop that extreme advantages old players with tech 2 bpos have over the rest of us and bring the tech 2 ship and item prices back to a reasonable level.
Make invention something for everyone, not only for a small elite that already has enough of everything. Thanks.
From what I see from the dev blog:
1) You need a T1 BPC (available in empire) 2) You may want to put a t1 item into the process (available in empire) 3) You need Data cores (available from r&d agents, they are in empire, right?) 4) You need a Data interface (ok this one could only be available in the new COSMOS regions in 0.0), but you only need one for infinite jobs. 5) You may want to put a decryptor in (which could only be available in 0.0)
So to conclude: There is only one mandatory item which is maybe only available in 0.0. Nobody knows up to now. On the other hand, if you get hands on one of those data interfaces, you can start your inventor career without having to go to 0.0 again.
So please, after getting a data interface, all mandatory items are available in empire space.
Also many other of your points are wrong:
ad 1) There are many people in 0.0, and many of those don¦t have every t2 bpo they need ad 2) Have you ever heard of NAGA? ad 3) Maybe, but your arguments don¦t support that conclusion
And again, read the dev blog, or delight me with the information source you have.
regards, Kanuo
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EvilNate
Caldari Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:23:00 -
[30]
Personally, I think getting a data interface from 0.0 could be pretty cool, seeing as it's infinite runs, it makes sense to put in a bit of effort to get it.
You can setup a contract for it for instance. You pay X amount of ISk for someone to go and get it, via anymeans, so you don't actualy have to get it yourself.
Nate.
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Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:38:00 -
[31]
Originally by: EvilNate Personally, I think getting a data interface from 0.0 could be pretty cool, seeing as it's infinite runs, it makes sense to put in a bit of effort to get it.
You can setup a contract for it for instance. You pay X amount of ISk for someone to go and get it, via anymeans, so you don't actualy have to get it yourself.
Nate.
Sounds good to me but I see another problem.
To make it clear - what I fear is the following:
1. Data interfaces are available via 0.0 only 2. Almost 100% of 0.0 is not accessible for the public, so the big alliances have full control over them 3. No one, besides the alliance guys, ever gets a data interface 4. The alliances kill everybody who tries to smuggle a data interface to those who need it - we all know that there are a lot of strange people in 0.0 who pay EUR 15,- per month just to sit at gates to wait for the strange shuttle or noob ship that lost its way so they can kill it (this is called "defending sovereignity" - I wonder if the big alliance bosses pay them their monthly fee and a full income for this, yes, second job) 5. Tech 2 prices stay high
And this is exactly what will happen. Not that I would ever want a data interface, I don't care about industrial stuff. But I want cheaper tech 2 items - and the only guys that will get them are those who don't need it if Murphys law will prove correct here once again.
On the other hand, maybe the guys @ CCP do know about the politics and the situation in Eve (I'm not sure if they are interested because otherwise there would be much more tech 2 bpos around) and if they add 1 + 1 they will get to the conclusion that we need data interfaces in empire space.
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Ileri Vahraq
Mercury Exploration
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:43:00 -
[32]
I have to wonder why is this feature called "Invention". It takes previously existing stuff and, if you're lucky, turns them into other previously existing stuff - it creates nothing new or original.
"Reverse Engineering" was far more accurate if still not quite right.
I can't help being strongly annoyed by phrases like "can't invent covetor to hulk" that make no sense whatsoever :)
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Traxman
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:46:00 -
[33]
Dont forget that you need Encrytion skills and the Inventor skill itself, both of them increase the chanse to get a result.
It will be intrested the more info we get about this, better to get facts before we start swear about it.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.26 15:52:00 -
[34]
1)Where have you got that data interfaces are in 0.0 only? The blog about invention only say that they are on "profession sites" which are hidden and you need touse the new exploring stuff to find.
2) 0.0 aint that hard to get into. A lot of possibilities to get in/out
3) Data interfaces are not consumed so you can use them over and over again
4) Even if data interfaces would be in 0.0 there will most certainly be a lot availbale for sale anyway. Lot of people will nto have the skills or interest to gather all the stuff needed and would be selling them for some quick ISK instead.
5) Even so, the more stuff available in 0.0 the better. Adds more stuff to fight over. Just don't make it all related to true security, we need some more stuff available in all the systems which today are not that good (which is a majority of 0.0 systems)
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:02:00 -
[35]
From what I have read of the process (all I could find) it is very involved and need a good number of resurces. Some are available in empire (not the encription skill books, and data interfaces who will be dropped by sites you can find only by Exploration [survey 5]). But most of the data are missing. What is the RP cost of a datacore? 100 rp/day is about the max for a researcher with the standing to get levl 4 agents and maximied science skill (before the field multiplier). So if a datacore require 3000 RP it is 1 month of play for an EXPERIENCED player with great standings for a researcher (usually not a combat pilot, and spending most of his time doing something different from doing transport missions). Much more for a player at his first research agent (at 40 RP/day (lvl 1 agent, scentific skill 5) 75 days of research. Apparently the datacores degrade with usage. So this is one of the critical points. If I should spend 1 month of research to get a datacore and then I can use it for 10 research I am not very happy.
In some past thread the DEV spoken of quality of the item (not mineral components) to get the bonus in the "invention" process. It is more logic as often the material value isn't in line with the increased quality of the items, but as the best items are usually rat dropping, again it is a resource best found in lower security systems.
All in all the sistem, as presented so far can be wort it to produce for personal use, or some friend, but not for some decent output.
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EvilNate
Caldari Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:43:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Queen Hades
Sounds good to me but I see another problem.
To make it clear - what I fear is the following:
1. Data interfaces are available via 0.0 only 2. Almost 100% of 0.0 is not accessible for the public, so the big alliances have full control over them 3. No one, besides the alliance guys, ever gets a data interface 4. The alliances kill everybody who tries to smuggle a data interface to those who need it - we all know that there are a lot of strange people in 0.0 who pay EUR 15,- per month just to sit at gates to wait for the strange shuttle or noob ship that lost its way so they can kill it (this is called "defending sovereignity" - I wonder if the big alliance bosses pay them their monthly fee and a full income for this, yes, second job) 5. Tech 2 prices stay high
And this is exactly what will happen. Not that I would ever want a data interface, I don't care about industrial stuff. But I want cheaper tech 2 items - and the only guys that will get them are those who don't need it if Murphys law will prove correct here once again.
On the other hand, maybe the guys @ CCP do know about the politics and the situation in Eve (I'm not sure if they are interested because otherwise there would be much more tech 2 bpos around) and if they add 1 + 1 they will get to the conclusion that we need data interfaces in empire space.
There are plenty of 0.0 spaces that are not controlled by any alliance, nor can it be controlled by an alliance. Curse, Stain, Geminate, etc. All the new ones that are coming out too. Once you are in these regoins its not too bad. Just get a scout for scouting camps and you good to go, or a covops for moving stuff, there are plenty of ways of going about doing.
But like I said, created a contract and make it some one elses problem.
Nate.
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Queen Hades
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Posted - 2006.10.26 16:58:00 -
[37]
Originally by: EvilNate
Originally by: Queen Hades
Sounds good to me but I see another problem.
To make it clear - what I fear is the following:
1. Data interfaces are available via 0.0 only 2. Almost 100% of 0.0 is not accessible for the public, so the big alliances have full control over them 3. No one, besides the alliance guys, ever gets a data interface 4. The alliances kill everybody who tries to smuggle a data interface to those who need it - we all know that there are a lot of strange people in 0.0 who pay EUR 15,- per month just to sit at gates to wait for the strange shuttle or noob ship that lost its way so they can kill it (this is called "defending sovereignity" - I wonder if the big alliance bosses pay them their monthly fee and a full income for this, yes, second job) 5. Tech 2 prices stay high
And this is exactly what will happen. Not that I would ever want a data interface, I don't care about industrial stuff. But I want cheaper tech 2 items - and the only guys that will get them are those who don't need it if Murphys law will prove correct here once again.
On the other hand, maybe the guys @ CCP do know about the politics and the situation in Eve (I'm not sure if they are interested because otherwise there would be much more tech 2 bpos around) and if they add 1 + 1 they will get to the conclusion that we need data interfaces in empire space.
There are plenty of 0.0 spaces that are not controlled by any alliance, nor can it be controlled by an alliance. Curse, Stain, Geminate, etc. All the new ones that are coming out too. Once you are in these regoins its not too bad. Just get a scout for scouting camps and you good to go, or a covops for moving stuff, there are plenty of ways of going about doing.
But like I said, created a contract and make it some one elses problem.
Nate.
So there is really 0.0 space that is open to everyone?
The new regions also can't be claimed?
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Sunaria
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:00:00 -
[38]
I think you guys worry about the wrong issues except one poster. Data interfaces no worries, someone will find them and put them on the market. But the cost of the datacores, who not degrade by the way but are totally destroyed when an invention job is completed OR FAILED. Like pointed out you only have like 100 rp/day if a datacore is worth 1000 rp you need to have two agents running 20 days for all the needed datacores. (you need 2 of each datacore in the specific research field pro invention job, at least for shield hardners , I did my research). Ayhow that would mean 20 days for maybe a failed invention job and thats what will kill invention. But this is speculation since invention doesn't work yet on sisi
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solidshot
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:11:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Queen Hades
So there is really 0.0 space that is open to everyone?
The new regions also can't be claimed?
the new regions can be claimed but i believe there will be no stations in these new regions so to start with everyone will have to haul in the ammo ect that they need and live at pos's until someone puts up a outpost
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Andargor theWise
Disbelievers of Fate The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.10.26 17:26:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Queen Hades
So there is really 0.0 space that is open to everyone?
The new regions also can't be claimed?
This thread is about Invention, not your personal grudge about the perceived or real difficulty you have in accessing 0.0.
- Got grief?
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Kanuo Ashkeron
Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:19:00 -
[41]
What really interests me is, how many datacores will you get for rp? Or the other way round, how many rp will datacores cost?
Or how many 3-4 lvl r&d agents does someone need to be able to produce a serious amount of items per week? Is it viable for only one character or do you need a whole corporation of r&d agent runners to do it?
Kanuo
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Karodnotos
Caldari SOM
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Kanuo Ashkeron
ad 2) Have you ever heard of NAGA? Kanuo
no, can anybody explain please? _____________ Eve Wiki |
Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:49:00 -
[43]
Wow... so much wrong info in this thread... It's like half the people here didn't even read the Invention Dev Blogs...
Skill: The main Invention Skill will most likely be seeded on Market. The Encryption Skills you get from Hacking/Archelogy which is done in hi-sec COSMOS and completely safe. The other Research Skills are agent rewards and are really common and cheap to find these days.
Datacores: Datacores are bought from Research Agents in exchange for RP. You can see this screenshot for an example of how many datacores are needed for some items.
Data Interfaces: These are infinite use so you only need 1 of them. There are 12 types so once you have all 12 you can invent anything and not have to worry about getting any more. No idea where they come from but even if they are only available in 0.0, people would still sell them in empire space like everything else is...
Can a Mod please clean up this thread and delete all the posts from the idiot who is complaining that only people in 0.0 will be able to do Invention. Thanks.
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.26 18:54:00 -
[44]
Now than, the important questions are:
1) How many RP does a datacore cost?
2) What is the highest chance of success you can get with max Invention, Encryption, and [Specific] Research skills?
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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James Draekn
X.E.N.O.
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Posted - 2006.10.26 21:42:00 -
[45]
Still a broken system since we still have to use agents (which ARE NOT player driven).
The way it should work is you get your BPC, datacores, Invention Skill, Encryption Skills, Research Skills, Data Interfaces and Datacores (from Research Agents in exchange for RP OR isk). Allowing people to purchase the datacores for isk creates another way to make a isk sink in-game, and lets people that just started the research tree to have a chance at datacores.
Once you have everything you take it either to a agent or your mobile lab. You can ask a agent to help you research the BPC up to T2 (a agent being 10-15% faster/more successful). Or you can research the item ALL BY YOURSELF, which is what this game needs. Player driven economy. Making invention slots only availible to reseach agent stations limits the affect this change is supposed to make. Not to mention, why go to 0.0 when all the invention and agents are in empire. Since agents don't reside at player built stations. I would love the ability to invent stuff for my corp mates to use, or myself. But, if I have to wait 4-10 months for a lab to open up, just to attempt this, why bother.
Please let the little guy in on invention by letting our mobile labs invent. The items are already out there, so us inventing/reverse engineering them won't need a agent from the corp that built them originally to actually help us get a poor copy.
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Zarta Blastaphart
Gallente Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:15:00 -
[46]
Invention ? Hardly !
Reverse Engineering ? Possibly !
This whole scheme has no basis in a player driven market/economy and is IMHO flawed.
Those with T2 BPO's are rich and will only get richer, those that don't get to feed on scraps.
I wonder how many will be willing to scamper across the universe collecting the bits and pieces only to get a flawed BPC ad nauseum.
I'd rather see invention be something incredibly difficult to accomplish, and yet offer appropriate rewards for those that succeed, i.e. a BPO.
MHO
Regards Zarta
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Kanuo Ashkeron
Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:18:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Eilie Wow... so much wrong info in this thread... It's like half the people here didn't even read the Invention Dev Blogs...
...
Can a Mod please clean up this thread and delete all the posts from the idiot who is complaining that only people in 0.0 will be able to do Invention. Thanks.
Why are you complaining about people not reading a dev blog, when you even don¦t bother to read a two pages thread? All things you posted, and the things you asked in your second post were already posted or asked in this thread.
Kanuo
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Emo Jelli
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:18:00 -
[48]
This thread is funny.
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Manuka
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:24:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Manuka on 26/10/2006 22:24:33 So what wanted CCP archieve with Invention?
1) Break monopolies 2) Create a multi-tier invention chain (multiple people involved) 3) Don¦t nerf the T2 bpo owners too much 4) Create a system, where Flavour-of-the-month things will dynamically compensated, so that they will not heavily overpriced.
Maybe I missed a few points, but i think the invention system covers all of this points quite well. Other systems, which for example could hand out a bpo, don¦t do that.
Manuka
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.26 22:46:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Kanuo Ashkeron
Originally by: Eilie Wow... so much wrong info in this thread... It's like half the people here didn't even read the Invention Dev Blogs...
...
Can a Mod please clean up this thread and delete all the posts from the idiot who is complaining that only people in 0.0 will be able to do Invention. Thanks.
Why are you complaining about people not reading a dev blog, when you even don¦t bother to read a two pages thread? All things you posted, and the things you asked in your second post were already posted or asked in this thread.
Kanuo
/sarcasm on NO, REALLY? /sarcasm off
Since the thread was full of alot of bad info (like people saying datacores and encryption skills came from 0.0 only), I put all the good info into one post so that people could find it easier. I guess trying to make a helpful post on these forums is a bad thing and that most people prefer to be misinformed. Well you know what they say: Ignorance is bliss!
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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WhiskeyDP
The Druids
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Posted - 2006.10.26 23:46:00 -
[51]
after 3,5 years and all t1 bpo's are still not avaible on open market. wonder why they did seed energized adaptive nano membrane 1 bpo on market when t2 was seeded but not all the other "rare" t1 bpo's. however i dont think ccp will ever sort so u will see those rare bpo's on normal market since they seeded those thru r&d later on.. ==================
=== eve is not all about isk, its about enjoying the game. lots of iskies is not the same as enjoying the game |
Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2006.10.27 00:11:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Queen Hades
To make it clear - what I fear is the following:
1. Data interfaces are available via 0.0 only 2. Almost 100% of 0.0 is not accessible for the public, so the big alliances have full control over them 3. No one, besides the alliance guys, ever gets a data interface 4. The alliances kill everybody who tries to smuggle a data interface to those who need it - we all know that there are a lot of strange people in 0.0 who pay EUR 15,- per month just to sit at gates to wait for the strange shuttle or noob ship that lost its way so they can kill it (this is called "defending sovereignity" - I wonder if the big alliance bosses pay them their monthly fee and a full income for this, yes, second job)
I have experience of the 10/10 complex in WO- deep in -V- space. It was, after a burst of outpost construction, surrounded by systems populated by -V- members, and 15 jumps away from the nearest entry point in N-RAEL, which was frequently camped by coalition forces.
Almost all complex runs went to Red Alliance.
How? They were more devoted to it, logged a team of 4 characters on at the right times every day, and eventually jumped the loot out by carrier.
"Claiming" of space is just not airtight at all. Even if it's not totally open to people unwilling to PvP, it is open to all sorts of random PvP corps; mercenaries, pirates, smugglers like Es and Whiz, etc.
I fully predict you'll be able to buy data interfaces on the market in Jita a week after they're launched. Heck, if I'm wrong I'll go out and get you one myself!
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Dux Dar
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Posted - 2006.10.27 00:22:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Zarta Blastaphart Invention ? Hardly !
Reverse Engineering ? Possibly !
This whole scheme has no basis in a player driven market/economy and is IMHO flawed.
Those with T2 BPO's are rich and will only get richer, those that don't get to feed on scraps.
I wonder how many will be willing to scamper across the universe collecting the bits and pieces only to get a flawed BPC ad nauseum.
I'd rather see invention be something incredibly difficult to accomplish, and yet offer appropriate rewards for those that succeed, i.e. a BPO.
MHO
-"Those with T2 BPO's are rich and will only get richer, those that don't get to feed on scraps."
What i fear is that this is correct (and not that people who cant hack it in 0.0 space might not get more stuff withouth any risk).
However,i will be "scampering across the universe collecting the bits and pieces only to get a flawed BPC ad nauseum". Just because after doing it enough times, i will be justified in ranting and whining for the destruction of all T2 bpo's, as the bpo owner "dont work" for it, thereby hopefully one day increase my own income even more at the exspence of the lottery winners (hey, dont blame me, economy is also war )
And guess what, if enough of us does this, CCP might actually listen (at least T3 will probably only be avialable through invention... in 3-4 years i guess). The BPO owners is however well avare of this, so expect attacks on the research system at every opportunity, and lengthy rants on why it wont/dont work.
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Illuminaty
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 01:43:00 -
[54]
Inorder to have a proper discussion, something needs to get cleared up.
0.0 access.
It is _very_ easy to get un-authorized access to 0.0 space. Pirates do it _all_ the time. So either its possible, or pirates are ninjas with magical powers.
These '23/7 uber camps of flaming 100% wtfpwnage' are total urban legands.
Requiring one item from 0.0 space that can be used forever isn't too much of a burden. Infact, it _should_ be more fun to get it as an 'empire citizen' than a 0.0 resident. All Indiania Jones style and stuff. Except replace the boulders with bubbles.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.27 02:14:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Illuminaty Requiring one item from 0.0 space that can be used forever isn't too much of a burden. Infact, it _should_ be more fun to get it as an 'empire citizen' than a 0.0 resident. All Indiania Jones style and stuff. Except replace the boulders with bubbles.
The idea is that if you can't get it, you can certainly buy it from someone who can. It's the same for the encryption skillbooks currently, you're essentially paying for the fact you can't get your own and someone else can.
The bottom line is that it will promote trade. The only detail to work out is the cost of the items that you can only find in 0.0, which is something the community will settle on based on rough supply and demand.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.10.27 08:51:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Eilie
Skill: The main Invention Skill will most likely be seeded on Market.
In the 40 million range probaly, from the prerequisites.
Originally by: Eilie
The Encryption Skills you get from Hacking/Archelogy which is done in hi-sec COSMOS and completely safe.
Safe? Maybe from players. Try hacking cans in a sawrm of BS whit a BC. Now they go for 100 millions each, probably they will rise in price.
Originally by: Eilie
Data Interfaces: These are infinite use so you only need 1 of them. There are 12 types so once you have all 12 you can invent anything and not have to worry about getting any more. No idea where they come from but even if they are only available in 0.0, people would still sell them in empire space like everything else is...
Again at least 100 million unless they are a common drop, I suspect the price will be even higher.
So to start, beside the the investment in BPC, you need at least 350 millions to get the basic skills and items. So I dubt there will be "casual" dabblers in invention. It is a (not so) mini profession requiring a good investment in isk, SP and time. Again it will do litle to reduce the price of T2 items, if not the most otrangeusly overpriced.
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Kipkruide
Quantum Dynamics
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Posted - 2006.10.27 08:56:00 -
[57]
well you forget that 90% of t2 prints are complete crap, only a couple are actually worth producing, a few items, some ships and guns. Where hacs are by far and almost exclusively way overprices, + cloaks and some guns. So everyone is gonna be inventing those few items leaving the other 90% alone. If you calculate that in i think prices will prob start dropping a bit.
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Kanuo Ashkeron
Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 08:58:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
... Again it will do litle to reduce the price of T2 items, if not the most otrangeusly overpriced.
But that¦s the point. CCP said more than once, that they don¦t want to bring additional competition in the "normal" priced T2 items, but to the really overpriced items. Invention should compensate price spikes, not reduce the base price level of T2 items.
Kanuo
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Mephysto
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Posted - 2006.10.27 09:32:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Eilie Now than, the important questions are:
1) How many RP does a datacore cost?
2) What is the highest chance of success you can get with max Invention, Encryption, and [Specific] Research skills?
1) this value is not finalised yet, but a few hundred to a couple of thousand RP's for a datacore, with a maximum number being able to be purchased in a given day.
2) varies wildly depending on the bpc and other components used.
Ok, so I'm not helping much with these answers am I?
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:43:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Mephysto
Originally by: Eilie Now than, the important questions are:
1) How many RP does a datacore cost?
2) What is the highest chance of success you can get with max Invention, Encryption, and [Specific] Research skills?
1) this value is not finalised yet, but a few hundred to a couple of thousand RP's for a datacore, with a maximum number being able to be purchased in a given day.
2) varies wildly depending on the bpc and other components used.
Ok, so I'm not helping much with these answers am I?
Hehe well at least something. I guess the more expensive (in form of RP) will be the T2 ships.
However I have one big question. What are you going to do with cloaks? There are no T1 versions of these. Covert op cloaks -> require Improved cloak -> require prototype cloak.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.27 10:47:00 -
[61]
One more question. How many runs will the BPCs you create from invention be?
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Stein Voorhees
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.10.27 17:12:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Illuminaty ...So either its possible, or pirates are ninjas with magical powers.
Thankyou, I just fell off my chair laughing
Back on topic, I've heard a few rumours and snippets of info regarding Cloaks and invention but is there anything definative on how/if this will work?
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Excremento
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Posted - 2006.10.27 18:21:00 -
[63]
I think its time for me to go buy a stabber BPO and start researching it. Then get a bunch of copies ready.
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Ronon Dex
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:11:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Mephysto
Originally by: Eilie Now than, the important questions are:
1) How many RP does a datacore cost?
1) this value is not finalised yet, but a few hundred to a couple of thousand RP's for a datacore, with a maximum number being able to be purchased in a given day.
Ok, so I'm not helping much with these answers am I?
So taking 1 of the bpc's from a screenshot posted above, that requires 32 datacores (16 of each type) costing say 1000 rp each, thats 32,000 rp @ 100rp per day = 320 days researching to aquire the datacores needed to start a single invention job that could fail and return nothing?
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Effei Gloom
Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.27 20:36:00 -
[65]
it looks like both T1 and T2 bpo of the new upgrades will go into lottery + invent... total of 90 new bpo
the T1 bpo wont be NPC sold -> skill requirement listed
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Mikal Drey
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Posted - 2006.10.27 21:28:00 -
[66]
if you need one of the 4 racial encryption skills to invent items; what about ORE ? does this already mean that hulks/makinaws/skiffs will also not be possible to invent like the already mentioned Covert ops cloak ?
also will whoever has an expanded cargo hold 1 BPC be able to create expanded cargohold II bpc's ? <-- this guy would be seriously rich.
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Chitah
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2006.10.27 22:54:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Chitah on 27/10/2006 22:56:46 Edited by: Chitah on 27/10/2006 22:54:47 If the Datacores will be available from a couple RP to couple of thousand RP this will be bad..very bad. Some thoughts:
As stated before by Kanuo Ashkeron: From what I see from the dev blog (http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=384):
1) You need a T1 BPC (available in empire) 2) You may want to put a t1 item into the process (available in empire) 3) You need Data cores (available from r&d agents, they are in empire, right?) 4) You need a Data interface (ok this one could only be available in the new COSMOS regions in 0.0), but you only need one for infinite jobs. 5) You may want to put a decryptor in (which could only be available in 0.0)
Point 1: Is ok...i don't think anyone discuss this point except for some items like the cloaking device. IMO the prototype Cloaking device should be available on T1 market.
Point 2: You may take a T1 item....This is good for mods...and what abou ships? if we are going for T2 BPC ships...should we put a ship there? Since they are not named and have the same metal that will not increase the rate of success. I haven't seen this answered or asked anywhere...
Point 3: Data cores...this will be a problem if each one costs more than a couple of hundred RPs/day. Suppose 1 Data core is 200RPs..and you receive from R&D agents 100 RP/day. This means 2 days = 1 Data Core. Some of the BPCs ask an amount of 15+ data cores...which means at least 30 days only for the Data Cores. If these numbers are correct this will be a huge waiting time and i can't imagine how would it be if each datacore is 2000 RPs. IMO they should also given as reward for R&D missions and/or other missions. These missions are 50% trading/50% Courier so you buy/deliver things and receive some data cores. That way the R&D missions are no longer useless. And you can always buy them in R&D agents.
Point 4: I think this is something that doesn't need to be discussed. Is one of those things you get the first time..and you never loose it :D
Point 5: So these Decryptors will be available through exploration. So we must wait until there to say anything. But they will be lost after the invention so it all depends on what missions you can get these Decryptors and the quantity.
Questions: 1. Can a caldari research agent invent a gallente (or other racial) BPC? I think this would be possible..since the enemies always try to know enemies secrets..
2. If each step adds % of succes....which % are these..taken from Dev blog: "The chance of succeeding an invention job depends on two main factors:
* All items have a base chance (for instance, ships are harder to invent than modules). * The skill level of the player. The invention skill is the most important one, but your level in the manufacture skills (Rocket Science, etc.) that the Datacores require and the Encryption skills that the Data Interfaces require also matters." These number are very important because if invention gives a base success of 10%/invention lvl then this will be a priority. But since a ship BPO have a base chance lower then mods then this should be as a penalty to invention skill itself.
From my point of view even if these answers are the ones i dream these BPCs won't take the value of T2 ships/mods and won't drop by itself the isk neede to purchase T2 ships.
There are too many factors in the air and no certains. We need some numbers...
Cheers
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RobW1
Caldari Iyen-Oursta Salvage
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Posted - 2006.10.28 01:23:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Chitah Edited by: Chitah on 27/10/2006 22:56:46
.....
4) You need a Data interface (ok this one could only be available in the new COSMOS regions in 0.0), but you only need one for infinite jobs.
...
Not everyone in the entire multi-verse has access to 0.0, so are these things going to be sold on the market? Are there going to be NO options for getting these through empire, at all?
There is no-way that a single player, or small corp can head off out into 0.0 land (deep in to 0.0?) to find a "complex" to get an item, to then take back to empire to "make" some of this hybrid stuff. That just isn't going to be possible with almost all entry points to 0.0 guarded (rightly so) 23x7.
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Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.10.28 01:54:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Gamer4liff on 28/10/2006 01:55:12 Edited by: Gamer4liff on 28/10/2006 01:54:35
Originally by: RobW1
Originally by: Chitah Edited by: Chitah on 27/10/2006 22:56:46
.....
4) You need a Data interface (ok this one could only be available in the new COSMOS regions in 0.0), but you only need one for infinite jobs.
...
Not everyone in the entire multi-verse has access to 0.0, so are these things going to be sold on the market? Are there going to be NO options for getting these through empire, at all?
There is no-way that a single player, or small corp can head off out into 0.0 land (deep in to 0.0?) to find a "complex" to get an item, to then take back to empire to "make" some of this hybrid stuff. That just isn't going to be possible with almost all entry points to 0.0 guarded (rightly so) 23x7.
Worry not, I'm sure some data interfaces will wind their way to empire, even at horrible prices.
So, Yeah, can we at least have crappy limited run data interfaces from lowsec cosmos?
Also why is quoting this makeing my text italic.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.28 02:16:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Mephysto
Originally by: Eilie Now than, the important questions are:
1) How many RP does a datacore cost?
2) What is the highest chance of success you can get with max Invention, Encryption, and [Specific] Research skills?
1) this value is not finalised yet, but a few hundred to a couple of thousand RP's for a datacore, with a maximum number being able to be purchased in a given day.
2) varies wildly depending on the bpc and other components used.
Ok, so I'm not helping much with these answers am I?
I got quoted by a dev, I am so honored! (Though I would've perfered if it was Eris!)
Anyway... with Kali due out in less than a month, I think you guys need to hurry up and decide on the answers to these 2 questions... They are the most important questions and what will either make or break Invention.
I really don't think datacores should be any more than 200 RP each because looking at the BPs, some of them (BCs) need over 30 datacores and even with the best agents you can't get more than 100RP/day (not counting the x2 or x3 for certain fields.)
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.10.28 02:43:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Gamer4liff on 28/10/2006 02:44:57
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: Mephysto
Originally by: Eilie Now than, the important questions are:
1) How many RP does a datacore cost?
2) What is the highest chance of success you can get with max Invention, Encryption, and [Specific] Research skills?
1) this value is not finalised yet, but a few hundred to a couple of thousand RP's for a datacore, with a maximum number being able to be purchased in a given day.
2) varies wildly depending on the bpc and other components used.
Ok, so I'm not helping much with these answers am I?
I got quoted by a dev, I am so honored! (Though I would've perfered if it was Eris!)
Anyway... with Kali due out in less than a month, I think you guys need to hurry up and decide on the answers to these 2 questions... They are the most important questions and what will either make or break Invention.
I really don't think datacores should be any more than 200 RP each because looking at the BPs, some of them (BCs) need over 30 datacores and even with the best agents you can't get more than 100RP/day (not counting the x2 or x3 for certain fields.)
I think a lot of what invention boils down to is getting rid of RP, and the more RP gotten rid of the better. 200 RP is laughable to people as myself who have been researching for years. long-time researchers like myself are more or less the target of invention after all. Also I'm willing to bet that the 'cores for things other than starships will cost proportionally less RP than starship eng' 'cores.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.28 02:51:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Gamer4liff I think a lot of what invention boils down to is getting rid of RP, and the more RP gotten rid of the better. 200 RP is laughable to people as myself who have been researching for years. long-time researchers like myself are more or less the target of invention after all. Also I'm willing to bet that the 'cores for things other than starships will cost proportionally less RP than starship eng' 'cores.
Well I also have over 200k RP... but if they charge over 1k RP each, all of us research vets will be out of RP within a week or two and than T2 prices will go back up and Invention will be useless...
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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Ronon Dex
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Posted - 2006.10.28 04:12:00 -
[73]
If the datacores cost any more than a couple hundred RP's each, invention will not be worth the time and effort required to produce anything.
I think the Devs are worried about making invension availlable to the masses resulting in the market being flooded with T2 gear and crashing its value.
At several hundred to a couple thousand RP's per core, it will take months to produce anything, and invension will be kicked out of the airlock to die a cold death in space.
The problem is finding the balance where everyone has the chance to produce T2 gear without flooding the market.
I think a month of research to produce say a 10 run T2 module BPC or a 1 run T2 ship BPC would be reasonable, which would mean a couple hundred RP's per datacore Max
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Illuminaty
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.28 04:16:00 -
[74]
The cloaks really do need to be inventable. Thats right, I said need.
Once invention gets rolled out, I'm expecting the price of Covert-ops cloaks to skyrocket like gas prices after an election
If the cloak BPO holders find out they can't be invented, I'd not be suprised to see them hit 100mil each.
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Aphotic Raven
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Posted - 2006.10.28 06:21:00 -
[75]
Yes tech 2 ships are awesome, but according to evemon the average base price for HACS is around 18mil, I think fears of the market being flooded are unfounded, it may make 0.0 more hotly contested but i think it needs to be done, watching the tech 2 BPO owners turn the screws hard on the economy to strangle the last bit of isk out before Kali has been saddening, I respect the way that CCP allows people to change their world and scam people and pirate and do whatever they want within the rules... but the inflation problems have to stop. Invention will be good for all, i dont object to some of it being 0.0 based, I think it should be reasonably easy for all those people out there making t1 ships for crappy returns to really get into tech 2 production. The devs have stated that they never expected the lottery/power balance to turn out like it has and i think they should flip it on its head. Come on, base price of ishkur: 3mil Current TQ price: 25mil or more. The sooner it stops, the sooner PVPers can go back to having fun.
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Kanuo Ashkeron
Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.28 09:20:00 -
[76]
When talking about rp/datacore price one has to see the big picture. Of course I am guessing right now, but imagine there are 2000 people researching gallente starship engineering with a good agent (3,4). They are propably getting 150rp at average per day. Which results in 300k rp per day given out in that reseach field.
Let¦s say you need 1000 rp per datacore in that field, EVE gets 300 datacores a day for gallente starship engineering. Now let¦s put around 100 in T2 BC, 100 in HAC and 100 in Frigs, that would result in around 6 T2 BC, around 13 HACs (assuming 8 datacores per Invention job) and 50 T2 frigs (all types). Of course assuming, Mechanical Engineering datacores are available.
I don¦t know the numbers on T2 frig production per day, but from the other two it seems that would increase the production by about 50%.
Once again, this example is based on numbers which are mostly guessed.
Kanuo
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Sandzibarr
A.W.M
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Posted - 2006.10.28 10:54:00 -
[77]
looks like Mech Engineering Datacores are used in almost all the tasty invention jobs for every race.. shame the RP for those agents comes in with ony a 1x multiplier.. time to hit up the only 4 lvl4 agents in that field - and still not be able to cope with the demand for datacores
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PuhBaer
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Posted - 2006.10.28 11:44:00 -
[78]
Anyone has seen the Invention option for BS too?
Does that mean that we soon have T2 BS?
That would be funny
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Sunaria
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Posted - 2006.10.28 11:52:00 -
[79]
Originally by: PuhBaer Anyone has seen the Invention option for BS too?
Does that mean that we soon have T2 BS?
That would be funny
you can only invent items that are allready in game, you can not just invent new types of BS, keep it realistic please
the main issue stays how much rp/datacore, if that is to high invention will not be used by many. Especially with the notion that invention jobs fail
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Imiarr Timshae
Roid Vandals
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:45:00 -
[80]
Well well well.
Time for a little rant. (not a bad one )
The new features put in by CCP are always well planned, and well executed. Major flaws are ironed out in early testing, and bug are fixed shortly afterwards.
Grats to CPP for improving the game ect.
However... I sincerely believe too little is told the the pod pilots of Eve.
We are told by Clover in the blog lots of general stuff. You need this, and that, and you might want to use this, but you can only get that from 0.0.
There are questions to be asked, and answers are not forthcoming. If being withheld for Economic reasons, that is acceptable.
Releasing a blog that is only half what it should be is not.
Getting people all psyched up for invention is not good. We need definition of who, what, where and how.
Thanks.
I'm done. -Imiarr Timshae-
-Pushing game mechanics since 04/03/2005- |
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Lord Goodberry
Gallente Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.29 00:07:00 -
[81]
Listen, I doubt the developers are gonna explain every iota of how invention will work while it's still being tested.
Part of playing the test is to help identify issues but I think we need to do a little homework in test to find out what invention is about.
That said I pray that invention does properly reward those who faithfully stuck with and built up R & D progress (as a pose to developing PvP skills) with some ISK producing items.
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Ezra
Gallente Calista Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.29 00:45:00 -
[82]
Originally by: EvilNate
Originally by: Queen Hades
Sounds good to me but I see another problem.
To make it clear - what I fear is the following:
1. Data interfaces are available via 0.0 only 2. Almost 100% of 0.0 is not accessible for the public, so the big alliances have full control over them 3. No one, besides the alliance guys, ever gets a data interface 4. The alliances kill everybody who tries to smuggle a data interface to those who need it - we all know that there are a lot of strange people in 0.0 who pay EUR 15,- per month just to sit at gates to wait for the strange shuttle or noob ship that lost its way so they can kill it (this is called "defending sovereignity" - I wonder if the big alliance bosses pay them their monthly fee and a full income for this, yes, second job) 5. Tech 2 prices stay high
And this is exactly what will happen. Not that I would ever want a data interface, I don't care about industrial stuff. But I want cheaper tech 2 items - and the only guys that will get them are those who don't need it if Murphys law will prove correct here once again.
On the other hand, maybe the guys @ CCP do know about the politics and the situation in Eve (I'm not sure if they are interested because otherwise there would be much more tech 2 bpos around) and if they add 1 + 1 they will get to the conclusion that we need data interfaces in empire space.
There are plenty of 0.0 spaces that are not controlled by any alliance, nor can it be controlled by an alliance. Curse, Stain, Geminate, etc. All the new ones that are coming out too. Once you are in these regoins its not too bad. Just get a scout for scouting camps and you good to go, or a covops for moving stuff, there are plenty of ways of going about doing.
But like I said, created a contract and make it some one elses problem.
Nate.
Soverignty != control
In fact, some of the regions which have NPC sovereignty (such as Fountain) are very popular with alliances because it means that they don't have to worry about maintaining sov, they only need to shoot intruders. In fact, because of this, while sovereignty is not possible in such areas, *control* is EASIER. ------------ Ezra Cornell pe0n, Calista Industries |
Elenit
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Posted - 2006.10.29 08:53:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Sunariayou can only invent items that are allready in game, you can not just invent new types of BS, keep it realistic please[/quote
That may be the case with how things currently are - but why not allow invention of composite modules?
Surely with decent skills, the right tools, research agents and time - you should be able to invent something that doeasn't exist already? Take an invented sensor booster and an invented target painter and, presto, you get a sensor painter. The attributes might be worse than the individual modules at first - more research, a few more prototypes and you get something that's better.
Some thoughts:
1) It's a logical extension of ship riggs - therefore not a giant leap from something that exists already 2) You would end up with crud on the market but these could help others improve on what somebody has started 3) You'd end up with novel items
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Amaron Ghant
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.29 11:21:00 -
[84]
Invention. Looks interesting.
Another prod to breach the womb of safesec and head to 0.0 Not a bad thing in and of itself.
Whether it has a marked effect in reducing the depredations of the t2 ship manufacturers? who knows. Only time will tell.
I¦,m looking forward to seeing it in action, but I think i¦ll wait a few months for R.A to seed the jita market with data interfaces before I join in.
Meanwhile time to acquire isk to buy some of the cool new toys when they get released.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.10.29 13:58:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: Queen Hades Problem with invention:
1. People in 0.0 don't need it, they already have the BPOs 2. People in empire space would need it but they can't use it because you need to offer yourself for ganking by those selfrighteous nbsi - snobs to get some of the items 3. So it won't solve the problem with 400 million isk for a HAC and stuff
I think the way it is implemented now one can call it a barrel burst. It solves not a single problem and it is not usable for those who would need it.
My solution:
Make all items for it available in empire space, maybe the datacores (or whatever it is that comes from 0.0) with limited runs or so. But please do anything to stop that extreme advantages old players with tech 2 bpos have over the rest of us and bring the tech 2 ship and item prices back to a reasonable level.
Make invention something for everyone, not only for a small elite that already has enough of everything. Thanks.
Agreeing with this, putting them in 0.0 only will really solve nothing.
Huh?
I don't know a single T2 production corp based in 0.0. They're all empire corporations: T2HL, Lacuna Viators, FIN, AATP, H-TI, NAGA...
-[23] Member-
Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.10.29 17:51:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Gamer4liff on 29/10/2006 17:50:52
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: Queen Hades Problem with invention:
1. People in 0.0 don't need it, they already have the BPOs 2. People in empire space would need it but they can't use it because you need to offer yourself for ganking by those selfrighteous nbsi - snobs to get some of the items 3. So it won't solve the problem with 400 million isk for a HAC and stuff
I think the way it is implemented now one can call it a barrel burst. It solves not a single problem and it is not usable for those who would need it.
My solution:
Make all items for it available in empire space, maybe the datacores (or whatever it is that comes from 0.0) with limited runs or so. But please do anything to stop that extreme advantages old players with tech 2 bpos have over the rest of us and bring the tech 2 ship and item prices back to a reasonable level.
Make invention something for everyone, not only for a small elite that already has enough of everything. Thanks.
Agreeing with this, putting them in 0.0 only will really solve nothing.
Huh?
I don't know a single T2 production corp based in 0.0. They're all empire corporations: T2HL, Lacuna Viators, FIN, AATP, H-TI, NAGA...
Actually I changed my mind on that when I realised that it was only the infinite use-data interfaces that came from 0.0.
But still, it would have served only the 0.0 alliance playerbase if all of the needed stuff for invention came from 0.0. Prices would remain high due to hard-to-get parts in 0.0 costing a lot. Then invention wouldn't be profitable at all for lowsec/empire folk who couldn't get the parts cheaply.
all in all, I think ccp's invention plan is fine right now tbh, although I am a tad bit worried on the cost of data interfaces.
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Goktar illiat
Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.29 18:42:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Excremento I think its time for me to go buy a stabber BPO and start researching it. Then get a bunch of copies ready.
with luck you'll find a avaible research slot in 10-15days time :(
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Loraen
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Posted - 2006.10.29 19:21:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Eilie
The Encryption Skills you get from Hacking/Archelogy which is done in hi-sec COSMOS and completely safe.
Safe? Maybe from players. Try hacking cans in a sawrm of BS whit a BC. Now they go for 100 millions each, probably they will rise in price.
You forget that they said the renamed (serpentis = gallente etc) encryption books will also be available from profession sites that will be located with the exploration system. As to what sec these exist in, is unknown at the moment. My expectation is for the encryption books to drop in price below 100M soon enough, unless you can get them only from 0.0 profession sites (or the old way of COSMOS hacking).
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Arcticblue2
Gallente Nordic Freelancers inc
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Posted - 2006.10.29 20:00:00 -
[89]
I sure hope they don't give these things to 0.0 people, I am thinking abouth those infinitve dataencryptions...
I live in low sec most of my time, if anything they should give these to low sec instead... alot more danger and they should start to NOT force people into 0.0....
I am already almost NOT playing this game, I like production, research and stuff... if it turns out that I can't do this inventions stuff... my subscription is out.
---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor. |
Xianthar
Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.30 01:07:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Queen Hades Problem with invention:
1. People in 0.0 don't need it, they already have the BPOs 2. People in empire space would need it but they can't use it because you need to offer yourself for ganking by those selfrighteous nbsi - snobs to get some of the items 3. So it won't solve the problem with 400 million isk for a HAC and stuff
I think the way it is implemented now one can call it a barrel burst. It solves not a single problem and it is not usable for those who would need it.
My solution:
Make all items for it available in empire space, maybe the datacores (or whatever it is that comes from 0.0) with limited runs or so. But please do anything to stop that extreme advantages old players with tech 2 bpos have over the rest of us and bring the tech 2 ship and item prices back to a reasonable level.
Make invention something for everyone, not only for a small elite that already has enough of everything. Thanks.
won't work, you make everything available in empire and i'll just start an alt to do it full time.
NBSI snobs FTW!!!!!!
don't avoid the flashy red, learn to love it.
-xian
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JaffaCake
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Posted - 2006.10.30 19:51:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Mikal Drey if you need one of the 4 racial encryption skills to invent items; what about ORE ? does this already mean that hulks/makinaws/skiffs will also not be possible to invent like the already mentioned Covert ops cloak ?
also will whoever has an expanded cargo hold 1 BPC be able to create expanded cargohold II bpc's ? <-- this guy would be seriously rich.
WTS 300-run Expander 1 BPCs
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.30 20:03:00 -
[92]
Regarding Prototype Cloaking Device I BPOs.
Since they were R&D agents reward, I don't think they should be seeded at all, as suggested by people wanting a piece of pie. If they were, it would only make sense to seed all T2 bpos to market as that would only be fair is such situation... Let's not forget other Tech 1 BPOs given out by R&D agents: Cargo expander I, Small and MEdium Mobile Warp Disruptor I while at it!
Significant investments by groups of clever people were made into these BPOs, why would only the value of these BPOs get annhilated by seeding? Doesn't sound balanced at all.
Thank you. _________________________________________
The cloaky orchestrator |
JaffaCake
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Posted - 2006.10.30 20:30:00 -
[93]
When you see past all this datacore/decryptor rubbish, "Invention" is still a "T2 Lottery", it just costs a bit more to enter and the rewards are fewer.
I think i'll be keeping my RPs right where they are
~
re: T1 "rare" BPOs: If these are to be placed on the market, then it is only right that the T1 bpos already released be turned into T2 bpos.
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GreyMana
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Posted - 2006.10.30 21:48:00 -
[94]
Just some thoughts of mine:
Buying components from RPs Personally I don't like that much. Especially when the chance of success is lower than 75%. I would rather like to reduce the number of required points to 10-20 (or 30-60 on those 3x fields) and adjust it by the time you need to create an invention (e.g. 48-60 hours for one Cap Recharger II and maybe 2-3 weeks for a HAC). Rather keep those time up and balance them down later.
Invention slots in empire There should be inventions slots in R&D stations and in POS. But please fix POS labs before that, so that you can actually open POS lab slots to the public (not only the GUI for it). This would also help the current ME research.
Profession sites I would really like to see such sites only via dynamic exploration only, spread on the whole empire/0.0. I don't think we need any more complex farming. Maybe re-activate rumor agents who can tell you possible sites.
Deep space TBH... My illusion that (mainchar) scientist are ever needed in 0.0 and alliances is gone. You would need to introduce some kind of licensing (limiting the item usage to self/corp/ally/all from cheap to expensive) is also out of vision for inventions. So I guess it will change nothing.
Profession: Science & Industry There are plenty of research and industrial alts out there which easily can shove away any main-char researcher by pure specialization. My fear is that the whole invention process either requires shooty-shooty or simply putting something in the oven and wait. I don't have a solution for this right now beside requiring some courier missions. Maybe another point in this category are the required skills. It would be nice if you also need the T1 skills to do an invention - I guess that would put alts a little bit in behind (e.g. requiring Caldari Cruiser 3 for an Eagle/Cerberus).
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Zyrla Bladestorm
Minmatar Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.10.30 22:58:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Naal Morno Regarding Prototype Cloaking Device I BPOs.
Since they were R&D agents reward, I don't think they should be seeded at all, as suggested by people wanting a piece of pie. If they were, it would only make sense to seed all T2 bpos to market as that would only be fair is such situation... Let's not forget other Tech 1 BPOs given out by R&D agents: Cargo expander I, Small and MEdium Mobile Warp Disruptor I while at it!
Significant investments by groups of clever people were made into these BPOs, why would only the value of these BPOs get annhilated by seeding? Doesn't sound balanced at all.
Thank you.
Well, they could always convert the prototype cloak to a TII item and add a new TI item which is replaced as the pre-requisite for the improved cloak with slightly worse stats I guess : Standard Cloak I if you will, I think thats about as kind as they can be in this case though since the entire idea with invention is to remove the cap on TII production and thus put a ceiling on TII prices, so one way or another the cloaks are going to have to become inventable.
Its not as though said BPO's haven't been highly profitable up till now though is it ?
. ----- It's great being Minmatar, ain't it? Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.30 23:56:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm
Its not as though said BPO's haven't been highly profitable up till now though is it ?
That's not the point... The are, however other BPOs would not get affected to such extent as Proto I BPO owners by seeding the said BPO. Their investment would become worth close to nothing overnight by sloppy decision to seed.
Any reasonable solution including BPO swap (giving Improved II or Covert II BPOs for example, best choice being a BPO of your choice) is best solution to the problem. Nobody would complain and everyone would be happy. _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I stopped thinking so anymore. |
Mortuus
Minmatar Oblivion's Gate
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Posted - 2006.10.30 23:58:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Queen Hades Problem with invention:
1. People in 0.0 don't need it, they already have the BPOs 2. People in empire space would need it but they can't use it because you need to offer yourself for ganking by those selfrighteous nbsi - snobs to get some of the items 3. So it won't solve the problem with 400 million isk for a HAC and stuff
I think the way it is implemented now one can call it a barrel burst. It solves not a single problem and it is not usable for those who would need it.
My solution:
Make all items for it available in empire space, maybe the datacores (or whatever it is that comes from 0.0) with limited runs or so. But please do anything to stop that extreme advantages old players with tech 2 bpos have over the rest of us and bring the tech 2 ship and item prices back to a reasonable level.
Make invention something for everyone, not only for a small elite that already has enough of everything. Thanks.
Teehee.
1: Most people in 0.0 do not have all those fancy t2 BPO's. 2: Learn to play, and you won't get ganked. I run from Vuorrassi up into Tenal and Branch every day, you can easily sneak a single BS out into 0.0. 3: With the new BCs, HACs are overrated. Hell, with 2 well fit cruisers or a good BC you can kill a HAC.
Come on people, 0.0 is not scary, entering it will not immediatly send you home in a pod. Go deep into alliance space and you can find nice tasty NPCrs and Miners. Any time you can pull 200+ mil in loot off a ship is a good time, and lots of 0.0 alliance members use good loot.
As for the rest of the invention thing, I hope it somewhat removes the need to come to empire or to move into the core systems to get a hold of some items. All I know is that we'll be working on that, and that with Rigs, at least one ship in gang will be used for salvaging.
ex-Occassus Republica <3 |
Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.10.31 00:18:00 -
[98]
so... RP for datacores.. how does this work?
I have 4 agents: 1 x Laser Physics (x2 mod) 1 x Gallente Starship (x3 mod) 1 x Mechanical Eng (x1 mod) 1 x Electronic Eng (x1 mod)
I want to buy a datacore (or 10) for each - does that mean that the datacores will be priced based on the research mod eg. a Mech Eng Datacore is worth 100rp, a Laser Physics 200rp, Starship 300rp?
Or will each skill have an random fixed price based on something?
What about standings towards the agent/corp/faction - will that effect prices? Should my agent who I have worked with faithfully for 2 years decide to give me the big finger and say "I don't care about our relationship, go shop somewhere else and see if i give a sh*t". Or the corp i have been running missions for for so long that I may as well be a member of their corp say they don't care when i go to another corp's R&D division to get a datacore as they don't really care.
What about market demand - obviously if certain datacores are more popular, their value in RP would be higher (they are worth more isk), or even lower (try to undercut other researchers). ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
Anatolli Korenchken
AUS Corporation CORE.
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Posted - 2006.10.31 06:05:00 -
[99]
Hmm all this talk about Datacores being only available from Agents is strange as the dev blogsays that "the same profession sites can also be harvested to get Datacores, Decryptors, skills and other relevant stuff." --------------- Computer: HULL BREACH. Core implosion imminent. Controller: "SH*T! Prime the escape pod now! Commander! Commander what are your orders!" Commander: "Deploy the Gummy Bears."
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Quurst
Duragon Pioneer Group GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.10.31 08:24:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Naal Morno
That's not the point... The are, however other BPOs would not get affected to such extent as Proto I BPO owners by seeding the said BPO. Their investment would become worth close to nothing overnight by sloppy decision to seed.
It's exactly the point of invention. A BPO will no longer give you exclusive right to produce a T2 item for nearly all items except cloaks. The sloppy decision to seed was made when they gave out prototype cloaks in limited supply.
Most of the profit in T2 currently is due to artificial low supply of blueprints. That's getting fixed in Kali by allowing players to increase the supply. I don't see why cloaks should be an exception.
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Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2006.10.31 12:02:00 -
[101]
I actually managed to log into the test server to try it, and couldn't find any installations to Invent in?
Also, it offered me the invention right-click menu option on BPOs, I thought it was just BPCs. And I couldn't figure out how to invent ammo BPCs.
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McNamara
Caldari THETA PROJECT
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Posted - 2006.10.31 12:49:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Naal Morno Regarding Prototype Cloaking Device I BPOs.
Since they were R&D agents reward, I don't think they should be seeded at all, as suggested by people wanting a piece of pie. If they were, it would only make sense to seed all T2 bpos to market as that would only be fair is such situation... Let's not forget other Tech 1 BPOs given out by R&D agents: Cargo expander I, Small and MEdium Mobile Warp Disruptor I while at it!
I guess rare T1 BPO owners already got their share of ISKies. As in real life, all technology breakthroughs become widely used and easily obtainable over time. Look at your PC, now you can buy it for less than 1000 bucks. 40 years ago you'd pay millions for such piece of hardware.
Originally by: Naal Morno Significant investments by groups of clever people were made into these BPOs, why would only the value of these BPOs get annhilated by seeding? Doesn't sound balanced at all.
Well, i know some people that really invested in research, but their investments by far returned now. Those who got their BPOs by pure luck either got their fat ISK right away (selling the BPO) or "earned" alot selling items.
No imbalance in seeding T1 BPOs. In fact, T2 BPOs should be seeded over time, and invention is a good move to this direction.
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Level4
Minmatar Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:44:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Vasiliyan I actually managed to log into the test server to try it, and couldn't find any installations to Invent in?
Also, it offered me the invention right-click menu option on BPOs, I thought it was just BPCs. And I couldn't figure out how to invent ammo BPCs.
mobile labs is the only structure with an invention slot right now, so you need to setup a pos to try it out.
Join us in channel "Profit" |
Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:47:00 -
[104]
I get your point, the desire to effectively punish only small subset of R&D rewards benefactors (the rare T1 BPO owners) for not getting the T2 BPO but the said rare T1 BPO. Way to go.
What you are proposing (just seeding without regard of said owners) is unfair since at the same time you are not proposing seeding any other BPOs (T2). Well, maybe you do but you won't have it your way.
I would be ok with with seeing Proto cloak I BPOs, not a problem there, so long owners of said BPOs are put on equal footing with T2 BPO owners by getting granted an opportunity to swap BPOs for T2. This would fix the cloaks problem (you can invent it, BPO owners don't get screwed over).
Doesn't this only sound fair?
Thanks. _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I stopped thinking so anymore. |
caver
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.31 13:52:00 -
[105]
Edited by: caver on 31/10/2006 13:56:19 I currently buy a "Datacore - Minmatar starship engineering" for 1500 RP :)
http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.46.38.png http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.47.16.png
Agent offers database: http://caver.org/eve/ |
Olea Avenger
Gallente GoonWaffe GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.10.31 16:25:00 -
[106]
I have not been able to get on Singularity lately (it is down I presume). When doing invention, what you are trying to invent does not rely on the skills to actually build the Tech 2 item, correct? Also, when inventing from one item which has two possible Tech 2 types (say Ishkur and Enyo from Incursus), is it completely random what BPC I will get? <br /> <br /> Sign up for the campaign against Angel ratts today. |
Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:47:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: Gamer4liff I think a lot of what invention boils down to is getting rid of RP, and the more RP gotten rid of the better. 200 RP is laughable to people as myself who have been researching for years. long-time researchers like myself are more or less the target of invention after all. Also I'm willing to bet that the 'cores for things other than starships will cost proportionally less RP than starship eng' 'cores.
Well I also have over 200k RP... but if they charge over 1k RP each, all of us research vets will be out of RP within a week or two and than T2 prices will go back up and Invention will be useless...
If it is aimed to long standing researcher it means it is way broken for young researchers. Not an idea I found so fun as that is a defect common enough in EVE. Most of the features are sized to veterans players, cutting out the recent ones. With my current agents I am in the 30-50 RP a day (not counting the fields multipliers) and 200 RP for datacore (with the ones for starship research at x3 probably), will use my build up point very fast.
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voidvim
Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.01 00:55:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Olea Avenger I have not been able to get on Singularity lately (it is down I presume). When doing invention, what you are trying to invent does not rely on the skills to actually build the Tech 2 item, correct? Also, when inventing from one item which has two possible Tech 2 types (say Ishkur and Enyo from Incursus), is it completely random what BPC I will get?
If you read the latest dev blog on invention, you get a 50% / 50% chance if their are 2 T2 verions.
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:04:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Ronon Dex
I think a month of research to produce say a 10 run T2 module BPC or a 1 run T2 ship BPC would be reasonable, which would mean a couple hundred RP's per datacore Max
A little math isk wise: 120 millions for a HAC, 30 day to research it with maybe 75% chance of succes? Costs: decent researched BPC 1 million, use 6000 RP, 30 day research slot another 500K, = 1.5 mil and 6000 RP worth about 3 millions (usually LP give items worth about 500 isk for LP) = 4.5 million/75% chance of success = 6 million cost every successfull BPC
Production cost: inefficent build BPC, another 45 millions in materials.
So about 50 millions and 40 days to build a ship selling maybe at 120 millions, about 2 millions/day gain. I think I can do more with some well chosen T1 item. It will be done for personal use and to try to get some difficult to find ship/module, not as a commercial venture.
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:23:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Naal Morno I get your point, the desire to effectively punish only small subset of R&D rewards benefactors (the rare T1 BPO owners) for not getting the T2 BPO but the said rare T1 BPO. Way to go.
What you are proposing (just seeding without regard of said owners) is unfair since at the same time you are not proposing seeding any other BPOs (T2). Well, maybe you do but you won't have it your way.
I would be ok with with seeing Proto cloak I BPOs, not a problem there, so long owners of said BPOs are put on equal footing with T2 BPO owners by getting granted an opportunity to swap BPOs for T2. This would fix the cloaks problem (you can invent it, BPO owners don't get screwed over).
Doesn't this only sound fair?
Thanks.
A simple thought "prototype" cloak I is or can be a named model of cloak, not the base cloak. Simply add a cloak I BPO to market, as it was suggested with worse fittings requirements and even worse spedd modifier, a little like the difference between a 250 railgun and a prototype 250 railgun. The prototype cloak will keep a reasonable price, and not be reaserchable, the BPC will be available for the T2 research.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:59:00 -
[111]
Originally by: caver I currently buy a "Datacore - Minmatar starship engineering" for 1500 RP :)
http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.46.38.png http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.47.16.png
****, I am so ******* stupid... I knew CCP would **** up Invention... I wasted almost a billion on Encryption skills and a month of training them all to lvl4 and all the other research skills to lvl3 for the slight chance that maybe they would do something right for once... but it seems that they tricked me again!
1500 RP for 1 datacore makes Invention the biggest joke of the year. Good job CCP, you got us again! I'm sure all the T2 BPO owners are laughing at us now too!
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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Levin Milcaro
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Posted - 2006.11.01 03:04:00 -
[112]
hmmm, would really like to see those data interface be aviable in empire or have say... 50k RP to buy it off the R&D agent or something.
(50k is about 200 days of reseach with an agent, if one is doing them missions. should probley lower the amount of RP needed though, 200 days is errm long.)
this way atleast people can EVENTUALLY get into research. regardless if they are part of one of those huge and really hard to get in alliances.
if its 0.0 only: well, I can bet my last isky that it will be farmed and put in empire market for an unholy amount of isks (my guess it will be in the billions: with the excuse that it is needed in research.)
and we all know what happened with plexes...
(and it makes RolePlay sense too, I mean, what the heck is some high tech gizsmo doing in the middle of a hick farm? I mean, you find the latest tech in universities in errm cities.)
and I remember reading the dev blog that invention is suppose to open up T2 for everybody right?
so small timer(those who do not have the support and will be shot at by big alliances) can get in.
but yeah... we need more info!!!!
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Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.11.01 03:58:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: caver I currently buy a "Datacore - Minmatar starship engineering" for 1500 RP :)
http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.46.38.png http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.47.16.png
****, I am so ******* stupid... I knew CCP would **** up Invention... I wasted almost a billion on Encryption skills and a month of training them all to lvl4 and all the other research skills to lvl3 for the slight chance that maybe they would do something right for once... but it seems that they tricked me again!
1500 RP for 1 datacore makes Invention the biggest joke of the year. Good job CCP, you got us again! I'm sure all the T2 BPO owners are laughing at us now too!
I really don't see why that is so horrible. 1500 seems pretty reasonable to me.
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Ronon Dex
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Posted - 2006.11.01 04:27:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: caver I currently buy a "Datacore - Minmatar starship engineering" for 1500 RP :)
http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.46.38.png http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.47.16.png
****, I am so ******* stupid... I knew CCP would **** up Invention... I wasted almost a billion on Encryption skills and a month of training them all to lvl4 and all the other research skills to lvl3 for the slight chance that maybe they would do something right for once... but it seems that they tricked me again!
1500 RP for 1 datacore makes Invention the biggest joke of the year. Good job CCP, you got us again! I'm sure all the T2 BPO owners are laughing at us now too!
I really don't see why that is so horrible. 1500 seems pretty reasonable to me.
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Inairin
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Posted - 2006.11.01 05:47:00 -
[115]
datacore better drop en masse at the 0.0 invention complexes. being out there risking my ship getting blasted to tiny tiny bits should be more worthwhile than stroking the hull of some stupid agent in safespace.
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Mikal Drey
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Posted - 2006.11.01 08:35:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Mikal Drey on 01/11/2006 08:41:29
Originally by: caver Edited by: caver on 31/10/2006 13:58:18 Edited by: caver on 31/10/2006 13:56:19 I currently buy a "Datacore - Minmatar starship engineering" for 1500 RP :)
http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.46.38.png http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.47.16.png
I absolutly love you :) u just saved me the trip of hell trying to get to my R&D agent (scarily so its the same dude)
1500RP sems a little high but tbh worth it.
238rpd x 7 days = 1666 for my L4 R&D
Put a JC in his station and thats 1 a week @ whatever they might sell for. Also i believe that the data cores are non destructive and can be used infinatley which also means that the 1500rp cost is ok.
Now just gott get back to my hq for more testing :/ /me senses a pod jump
Originally by: Eilie I wasted almost a billion on Encryption skills and a month of training them all to lvl4 and all the other research skills to lvl3 for the slight chance that maybe they would do something right for once... but it seems that they tricked me again!
1500 RP for 1 datacore makes Invention the biggest joke of the year. Good job CCP, you got us again! I'm sure all the T2 BPO owners are laughing at us now too!
The encryption skillZ arent used for the data cores but WILL be essential for the actual process of invention. no real screenies as yet but if you needed to create an invention from a rifter BPC then
1) you need the datacore 2) you need minmatar encryption.
dont worry its not wasted isk
The only gripe will be that low level R&D agents will take longer to get datacores but i would assume that CCP have lower level Datacores available; remember the dev blog stated that they will be various datacores and at various RP costs.
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caver
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.01 09:14:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Mikal Drey
Put a JC in his station and thats 1 a week @ whatever they might sell for. Also i believe that the data cores are non destructive and can be used infinatley which also means that the 1500rp cost is ok.
DEV blog === 7. Other items (Datacores, Tech I BPCs and the optional items) are always destroyed, no matter if the job is successful or not. ===
Agent offers database: http://caver.org/eve/ |
Mikal Drey
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Posted - 2006.11.01 09:34:00 -
[118]
"He also gets his Data Interface back, they are never destroyed."
**** my Tech I reading skillZ
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violator2k5
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.01 09:57:00 -
[119]
humm theres a lot of posts here already. imo theres only a few bits of information that i think should be made public.
1) The chances of getting a t2 bpc from a t1 bpc per run + formular to work out the increased chances of a multi run bpc.
obviously module and ship bpcs will have different chances (hopefully the chances of gaining a t2 ship will be lower)
2) a list of t2 items that can actually be invented
=============
with that said, there was mention of a certain item that can only be retrieved from 0.0 space. The idea of doing that is actually good cos it will stop any tom di*k or harry from getting their hands on it. It will also force the alliance owners of that space to be more careful with who they allow access to their threshold if they do at all. not to mention it will probably involve a lot of gate camps to gain access to that area so the chances of any empire person with a lack of 0.0 travel actually getting there is another question of chance
i myself am still in between minds with wanting invention to work or not. from a mission / pvp side i'd love to get the mods / ships cheaper then they are now but from an industry side i'd much rather see the prices stay as they are.
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Brechan Skene
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Posted - 2006.11.01 22:11:00 -
[120]
The problem is how can we truely evaluate or test the invention component if they have not put into the test server the complette package. However, is what is their the complette package? If not, what is missing?
Without the complette Invention package how can we evaluate or let alone discuss its usefulnes/pointless factor when all we have is the bare bones of what invention is.
Final note. Is this, the stuff on the test server the only stuff we are getting for 'Invention' or are their going to be additional stuff?
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El Yatta
Caldari Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.11.01 22:42:00 -
[121]
Edited by: El Yatta on 01/11/2006 22:45:49 I think when pricing the datacores in RP, CCP need to consider their eventual market, ISK price. It is not feasible to expect to supply cores inhouse, because most normal people will have a few researcher's in corp, but not the huge farm of 30-50 alts that you'd need to supply a reasonable amount of inventing. I dont think having even more reams of alts that sit there gathering RP and not playing is a mechanic intended by CCP.
After the initial rush as people with large stocks of RP cash theirs in, it would be nice if the amount per core is reasonable so that they sell ok on the market.
I personally feel that, maybe 1m per starship engineering core, is pretty reasonable. At 30 cores per go for inventing a HAC, that is 30m, plus a t1 cruiser (5m) and the build cost (35-40m, mostly morphite, components and another t1 cruiser), ignoring any investment in skills and data interfaces and additional costs for decryptors. With this you'd be able to produce HACs at 75m if you invent successfuly. Of course if your failure rate is 50% then it will cost 110m, and if its 66% failure then 155m, and so on).
So, 1m per starship core... how much do people value their RP at? If 1 core was 1000 RP then you are looking at 1000 ISK per RP, so most people sitting on a stash of say 300k RP are sitting on 300m - a reasonable sum, but not necessarily worth the 18-24 months of time needed to acquire the RP.
Further more, at 1000 RP per core, once the initial bulk RP of the past is gone, then those who wish to use their RP to sell cores will not be able to keep up with demand, taking over a week to produce one core, or 7-8 months for one HAC's worth (assuming it succeeds of course, if you fail to invent half the time then, as before, you can double that figure!).
Are there enough RP gathering chars to keep up with demand? Of course not, so in our hypothetical situation, demand for cores will exceeed supply, market price will go up, far FAR beyond that 1m per core I suggested. Now, say they only rose as far as 5m per starship core, which means Johhny Science who has been sitting on 300k RPs can cash those in for 1.5bn ISK, which is still not much money for two years. Now it will cost 150m for the cores for a HAC, plus decryptors, t1 item and build cost, so 200m. Thats at 100% inventing chance - go down to 50% and its 340m. Without adding profit (as I'm only talking about trying to produce internally, god forbid people try to sell invented produced T2 on the market as well) its already impossible in this situation to make a HAC that is cheaper than the market.
Now, some of you will have spotted my little logical flaw - this assumes a 1-run HAC BPC at the end! Of course it will be possible to get multi-run BPCs out, we hope, but so far all we know that affects it is a) the decryptors used, b) the original runs on the BPC. Its also hinted in the original invention material that the t1 BPC loses both runs and a LARGE amount of ME/PE (even to going negative).
This leaves us in a bit of a dilemna. I know that there should be player skill involved - e.g. striking a balance between ME/PE on your t1 BPO making BPCs, how many runs on the BPC to churn out, whether to choose a chance-of-success or number-of-runs decryptor (either one should reduce your item cost at the end, but either way if it works out that you can get out a 3 run BPC, 33% of the time, it still doesnt make things any better than if its 1-1, as above, and then we easily run into problems if the rate of RPs being converted to cores is less than the demand for cores that week). But, CCP will need to tweak it as well, as no amount of careful choices will make it worthwhile.
SO: Step 1) Make it more like 100 RP per core. Step 2) Make it fluctuate between 20 RP and 500 RP,in order that you, CCP, can control the rate of invention more directly. Step 3) Think long and hard on the final values for % modifiers on invention, invention skill, decryptors, as well as final no. of Runs out.
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ArchenTheGreat
Caldari Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2006.11.01 22:47:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Naal Morno
Significant investments by groups of clever people were made into these BPOs, why would only the value of these BPOs get annhilated by seeding? Doesn't sound balanced at all.
"Significant investments" - makes me laugh. All it takes is to run RD agent for a week or so few years ago. With EVE population at a third of today and very few RD players at those times it wasn't big investment. Since than no new BPOs were released.
There is no way one can force BPO owner to give BPO. You can produce tech2 stuff in total safety in Empire. No risk, no investment - huge rewards.
I say CCP should scrap all this invention crap and release every tech2 BPO on market. Alternatively release them through lottery but every BPO should be given each week AND if you want take part in lottery you risk you RD points (not all but you state how much) so if you don't get BPO your RD points are lost.
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.01 23:35:00 -
[123]
Originally by: ArchenTheGreat
Originally by: Naal Morno
Significant investments by groups of clever people were made into these BPOs, why would only the value of these BPOs get annhilated by seeding? Doesn't sound balanced at all.
"Significant investments" - makes me laugh. All it takes is to run RD agent for a week or so few years ago. With EVE population at a third of today and very few RD players at those times it wasn't big investment. Since than no new BPOs were released.
There is no way one can force BPO owner to give BPO. You can produce tech2 stuff in total safety in Empire. No risk, no investment - huge rewards.
I say CCP should scrap all this invention crap and release every tech2 BPO on market. Alternatively release them through lottery but every BPO should be given each week AND if you want take part in lottery you risk you RD points (not all but you state how much) so if you don't get BPO your RD points are lost.
Most current T2 BPO owners did not win their BPOs, they bought them for huge amount of ISK with a hope to get decent ROI.
Yes you can force the person to give their BPO, all it takes to whack them with a briefcase of ISK over the head.
Luckily CCP won't listen to your "idea", moreover they are in last stages of implementing balanced system that will be a reasonable compromise.
You are wrong on all three counts. _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Wilguma
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Posted - 2006.11.02 00:03:00 -
[124]
From a in game point of view, if research leads to tech 2 bpo's and they have been seeded, does that mean all the research agents have gone stupid? From a role play point of view, new bpos should be researched through agents all the time, not a hand full then stop becuase game mechanics wont allow it. Yes it sucks many people bought t2 ship bpos for billions on billions isk, but it makes absolutly no sense from a roleplaying point of view to just release 10 of a bpo and then say "the rest of the eve community is too stupid to research and invent this ship even though its been out for years".
Datacore's rp's should be lower then what they are in that picture. 500 should be max.
T3 items will probably be invented from t2 bpc's which means alot of isk still for the current t2 bpo owners who can pump out bpc's left and right. I think the current t2 bpo owners should stop crying now.
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Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.11.02 05:04:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Gamer4liff on 02/11/2006 05:16:30
Originally by: Ronon Dex Edited by: Ronon Dex on 01/11/2006 04:33:12 Edited by: Ronon Dex on 01/11/2006 04:29:22
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: caver I currently buy a "Datacore - Minmatar starship engineering" for 1500 RP :)
http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.46.38.png http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.47.16.png
****, I am so ******* stupid... I knew CCP would **** up Invention... I wasted almost a billion on Encryption skills and a month of training them all to lvl4 and all the other research skills to lvl3 for the slight chance that maybe they would do something right for once... but it seems that they tricked me again!
1500 RP for 1 datacore makes Invention the biggest joke of the year. Good job CCP, you got us again! I'm sure all the T2 BPO owners are laughing at us now too!
I really don't see why that is so horrible. 1500 seems pretty reasonable to me.
1500 RP x 32 Datacores needed for a ship invention job = 48,000 @ 100 RP per Day = 480 Days or 16 Months to Research...
Do You really believe spending over a years worth of RP on a single invension job that could fail and return nothing reasonable?
I forsee players creating dosens of characters purely to research and farm RP like macro miners.... forget invension, the Datacores will sell on the market for more isk than the produced BPC's....
where are you getting this 32 datacores per job stuff? the devblog implies that only two are needed per job. Requesting screenshot of said 32 datacore cost.
Even if that is true though. this system is more for those who took the time to max the research skills needed for RP gain. After all 100 rp/day is pretty pathetic, and what serious researcher researches with only one agent? You can get double that per agent anyway with lvl 4 R&D agents and higher research skills(on starship research). This system will probably be exactly what it needs to be to the group it needs to be used by, highly-skilled researchers. Also It helps everybody else out by getting RP out of the lottery. Oh and the 1500rp is for starship research cores it would appear, if you are compareing a non-starship agent's RP gain with the cost of a starship datacore it's not really a valid comparison. The other datacores will probably be much cheaper rp wise.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.02 05:56:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Gamer4liff where are you getting this 32 datacores per job stuff? the devblog implies that only two are needed per job. Requesting screenshot of said 32 datacore cost.
Even if that is true though. this system is more for those who took the time to max the research skills needed for RP gain. After all 100 rp/day is pretty pathetic, and what serious researcher researches with only one agent? You can get double that per agent anyway with lvl 4 R&D agents and higher research skills(on starship research). This system will probably be exactly what it needs to be to the group it needs to be used by, highly-skilled researchers. Also It helps everybody else out by getting RP out of the lottery. Oh and the 1500rp is for starship research cores it would appear, if you are compareing a non-starship agent's RP gain with the cost of a starship datacore it's not really a valid comparison. The other datacores will probably be much cheaper rp wise.
This screenshot shows 32 datacores needed for a Command Ship. Most of the others seem to need only 4. (It's not on that screenshot, but I would assume that a HAC would probably need 16.)
With the best skill/agent you can get about 300rp/day from a starship agent. With 5 agents, you can get only 1 datacore per day. (Although you won't really get that because there arn't enough high quality agents.)
For other items, you may only need 4 datacores, but you will only be getting 100rp/day which would mean 1 datacore/3 days with 5 agents... so they will also take very long for just one attempt.
The only thing that might save Invention form being a complete joke would be if you can get atleast a 75% chance of success and BPCs with atleast 5 runs! But knowing CCP, I wouldn't count on it...
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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Ztrain
Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.02 08:56:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Ztrain on 02/11/2006 08:58:20 It is very simple. I am working on collecting the BPOs to be self sufficient for the ships I want to be able to build and fly myself. This being Pilgrims with cloak modules. For me that is the fun. Working to be able to produce the ships I use to fight in. If you can not purchase a cloak BPO that can be researched and Invented in to cov ops cloaks then I won't need to worry. Because I will not be playing this game after Kali.
Other option if they are going to claim that well it's a market like the real one and they were lucky. Ok well then taking it from someone who's lucky in RL can throw down several hundred real $$ for the ISK to by several dozen without even flinching the pocket book. We'll see what CCP decides but invention might just make me start paying attention to all the buy ISK EVE mails that go around. Hell going that route I could buy a fleet of dreads over night! But seriously I'd rather just go play another game that doesn't only allow certian random lucky people exclusive access to content.
Z In your safespot killin your doods! |
Quurst
Duragon Pioneer Group GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.02 10:06:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Eilie This screenshot shows 32 datacores needed for a Command Ship. Most of the others seem to need only 4. (It's not on that screenshot, but I would assume that a HAC would probably need 16.)
With the best skill/agent you can get about 300rp/day from a starship agent. With 5 agents, you can get only 1 datacore per day. (Although you won't really get that because there arn't enough high quality agents.)
For other items, you may only need 4 datacores, but you will only be getting 100rp/day which would mean 1 datacore/3 days with 5 agents... so they will also take very long for just one attempt.
The only thing that might save Invention form being a complete joke would be if you can get atleast a 75% chance of success and BPCs with atleast 5 runs! But knowing CCP, I wouldn't count on it...
Don't forget exploration. With these numbers I don't think CCP intended that R&D agents would be the main source of datacores. Most datacores will probably be collected from exploration sites and moved to empire for invention. R&D agents are more of a secondary source of income which seems fair considering the one time investment needed.
Also what's up with mechanical engineering? I only see 4 agents ingame and they don't have a level.
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Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2006.11.02 10:26:00 -
[129]
Has anyone actually successfully completed an invention job on the test server yet?
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MicanG
Amarr Dark Reality
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Posted - 2006.11.02 11:08:00 -
[130]
Edited by: MicanG on 02/11/2006 11:10:12
About the encryption method skillbooks (guristas, blood raider, angel).
Each faction has it's own skillbook. I know they will be renamed when Kali comes. But what does it mean?
I mean If I train the blood raider encryption book, then Kali comes. Then I have the amarr invention skill. So, can I only "invent" amarr ships ? Or can I only "invent" in amarr space and/or stations ? Would it be possible to "invent" caldari ships ? Does the amarr invention skill work for all modules or only specific amarr modules (if there are any ) ? Or does it apply to you're character of which faction he/she is ? Or can I only "buy" datacores from amarr agents ?
I haven't found any answers to these questions, maybe some one knows.
I created a topic of these questions in the skill section of the forum, but mayeb this is more the right place to ask.
click the signature. |
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Harisdrop
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.02 14:02:00 -
[131]
Originally by: MicanG Edited by: MicanG on 02/11/2006 11:10:12
About the encryption method skillbooks (guristas, blood raider, angel).
Each faction has it's own skillbook. I know they will be renamed when Kali comes. But what does it mean?
I mean If I train the blood raider encryption book, then Kali comes. Then I have the amarr invention skill. So, can I only "invent" amarr ships ? Or can I only "invent" in amarr space and/or stations ? Would it be possible to "invent" caldari ships ? Does the amarr invention skill work for all modules or only specific amarr modules (if there are any ) ? Or does it apply to you're character of which faction he/she is ? Or can I only "buy" datacores from amarr agents ?
I haven't found any answers to these questions, maybe some one knows.
I created a topic of these questions in the skill section of the forum, but mayeb this is more the right place to ask.
Each race has its own set of items they produce currently in Tech II.
It starts with racial moon mineral to racial components. These racial aspects has been part of the process why would they change that. The game of invention will draw regions of inventors together.
Originally by: Tuxford .....stuff... Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later.
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Neverblu
Flying Spaghetti Monsterz
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Posted - 2006.11.02 15:10:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Neverblu on 02/11/2006 15:11:32 there shouldnt be a limit on tech 2 bpo's at all, if you put in your work with r&d agents it should eventually show, now im not a science character or manufacturer, but this isnt my first mmo by far....
I pay the same ammount everyone else pays to play this freakin game, everyone should have the same chance.....there should be NO limit....weather you manufacturers think its right or ccp thinks its a way to make economy. just remember we all pay the same ammount.....ccp who are you to say not everyone deserves a chance. because thats what your saying, how do you expect these players to get thier hands on t2 bpos so they can build for thier alliance?, how do you expect players to pay 250m for a ship that costs 30mill to build? its bull**** and what you need to do is give everyone the chance that uses r&d agents. do you have your ears open CCP.....its not FAIR to every player that plays this game to say theres 20 of this.....30000+ of us, straighten your **** CCP
so that being said....inventions should enable you the chance for any T2 bpo....depending on the circumstance i guess :P |
Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.02 16:24:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Neverblu Edited by: Neverblu on 02/11/2006 15:11:32 there shouldnt be a limit on tech 2 bpo's at all, if you put in your work with r&d agents it should eventually show, now im not a science character or manufacturer, but this isnt my first mmo by far....
I pay the same ammount everyone else pays to play this freakin game, everyone should have the same chance.....there should be NO limit....weather you manufacturers think its right or ccp thinks its a way to make economy. just remember we all pay the same ammount.....ccp who are you to say not everyone deserves a chance. because thats what your saying, how do you expect these players to get thier hands on t2 bpos so they can build for thier alliance?, how do you expect players to pay 250m for a ship that costs 30mill to build? its bull**** and what you need to do is give everyone the chance that uses r&d agents. do you have your ears open CCP.....its not FAIR to every player that plays this game to say theres 20 of this.....30000+ of us, straighten your **** CCP
so that being said....inventions should enable you the chance for any T2 bpo....depending on the circumstance i guess :P
Get some manners first, then voice your opinions.
Anyway, everyone had equal chance for getting T2 BPO. With minimal, and I mean VERY MINIMAL, effort you could have gotten research agents and have a chance in lottery. If you haven't played at the time when T2 BPOs were given out, your loss. Should you be given stuff just because you dare to come to forums and use derogatory language?
You also haven't been training skills at the time when you weren't playing yet, does that matter you have a right to come to forums and demand 50mil of skills to be applied retroactively? NO!
Go away.
_________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Neverblu
Flying Spaghetti Monsterz
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Posted - 2006.11.02 16:47:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Neverblu on 02/11/2006 16:51:43 I honestly dont care about the t2 bpo's, frankly i have no need for them, nor you thinking i say might not of been training skills, either way. Obtaining things in a mmo should not be of time constraint, it should be of chance.....and handing out 20 of each type of t2 bpo is not chance at all, who is to say all of those players leave eve, who is to say newer players dont have a chance in hell of getting any form of that sort of bpo....obviously ccp, but yet we still all pay the same ammount? the chances and occurances should be evenly spread and not limited to a number. Obviously if you put in more time and effort one would achieve these quicker....but what is a new production character to go for when the t2 bpo's are fresh out? say oh i give up and be a pvp/pve player, or a miner, my point is im not demanding a **** thing, and its not jealousy, or anything of the sort, but a game is a game, the game gets balanced all the time with patches for pvp/pve, new ships new modules, sure more t2 bpos might come out but whats that another 20 to go around thirty thousand people?....why not balance it so maybe there isnt a limited number of this or that...so maybe the production and r&d side of the game is balanced so more then a handful of people arent sitting in thier station with thier t2 bpo, demanding millions of isk out of people.....for tech 2 ****
now if that doesnt make any sense to you, and your stuck in your big headed bubble of i earned my t2 bpo....well it needs to be popped, because you making billions a month off sitting in a station buying ore/components to build these ships and all you have to do is push a couple buttons and walk away?....the economy in this game is out of control weather you wanna think so or not....and this horse **** on the limited supply of t2 bpo's is its whole problem....so no i wont go away
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Orrin Danestarr
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:01:00 -
[135]
I think invention is in the right direction. Implementation is what they are trying to nail down here. Guys who have T2 BPO's, hey, they got it, we didn't, we live with it. I don't think it should take so many datacores to try and produce a single ship, i mean come on.... 32 datacores at 1,500 rp each... Hello??? no frakin way....
"Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME |
Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:52:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Neverblu stuff
Luckily the invention way is the CCP's choice. This is a balanced approach which neither nerfs T2 BPOs completely nor leave the situation status quo.
Anyway, have you done anything to join the club or just doing the usual whining like thousands lazy people before you? Because to get T2 BPO is not that hard at all. It just takes some dedication and sacrifices which people like you ("Gimmie" kind) doesn't seem to be willing to entertain. _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:54:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Orrin Danestarr I think invention is in the right direction. Implementation is what they are trying to nail down here. Guys who have T2 BPO's, hey, they got it, we didn't, we live with it. I don't think it should take so many datacores to try and produce a single ship, i mean come on.... 32 datacores at 1,500 rp each... Hello??? no frakin way....
Think of it this way... 32 datacores at 1,500RP each...HOWEVER, this is the 'carebear' way to get them and is essentially free since you get them regardless of what you do (well, you need to have agent of course).
There will be additional ways to get these, namely cosmos, ruins and what not. You can safely bet any effort put towards getting them in these alternative locations will be rewarded accordingly.
_________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:23:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Naal Morno
Originally by: Orrin Danestarr I think invention is in the right direction. Implementation is what they are trying to nail down here. Guys who have T2 BPO's, hey, they got it, we didn't, we live with it. I don't think it should take so many datacores to try and produce a single ship, i mean come on.... 32 datacores at 1,500 rp each... Hello??? no frakin way....
Think of it this way... 32 datacores at 1,500RP each...HOWEVER, this is the 'carebear' way to get them and is essentially free since you get them regardless of what you do (well, you need to have agent of course).
(stuff)
Devaluing agent-activation and subsequent passive accumulation as a method of obtainment is a slippery slope though, considering that's how T2 BPOs drop in the first place.
Not that I'm taking one side or the other - and I think your next point about risk v. reward is valid, but demeaning passive RP collection isn't a coherent argument.
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Larshus Magrus
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:25:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Larshus Magrus on 02/11/2006 20:27:05 My 2 isk's
1) If its is indeed 16 data cores for a hac, and 32 for a command ship, at 1500 RP per data core, you'd be an absolute FOOL to actually cash in your RP's. I've got ALOT of RPs... Ive never won anything. If everyone cashes out, it going be a field day for me on the actual lottery.
2) It's not easy but if you sat down and tried to gestimate the number of toons running 5 lvl 4 agents farming RP's then assumed most of them cashed in, and a certain percentage did not, then tried to gestimate the total pool size left then worked out the percentage chance of winning, then multiplied that by the expected profits on a bpo, THEN worked out what each RP was REALLY worth, you might be surprised.... theoretically speaking. Seeing CCP has all the numbers NOT to gestimate, my guess is that they have done this.
3) The t1 cloak cartel should get off their high horse. Every t2 manufacturer is going to be dealing with this... and most of THEM spent large ISK on their bpos. What makes you any more special than them? I thought so.
And thats all I have to say about that.
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Larshus Magrus
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:26:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Larshus Magrus on 02/11/2006 20:26:44 Darn double post
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Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.11.02 23:16:00 -
[141]
The real 10$ question is how hard will exploration be, and how many exploration spots will be in any given empire system.
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raven415
Caldari Special Projects Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.03 02:01:00 -
[142]
lets make rp a reward only for doing the research missions. none of this something for nothing. as for huge investments i can remember paying large amounts for science grads, and other items needed for research missions.
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Battle Tested
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Posted - 2006.11.03 05:05:00 -
[143]
The whole stink of this is gonna be the COSMOS 0.0 and the reason for this is whatever alliance controls them, they arent gonna let the "decryptors" or whatever the others are to get into circulation, they will remain in alliance hands only. None of them will make their way to empire hence giving invention to 0.0 alliances and not general public. AND if by chance one makes it to Empire...the price would be insane...Billions for one on escrow
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Harisdrop
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.03 07:39:00 -
[144]
I have read enough. Seems that this is highly valuable. If you want to do anything in this game it should be risk = reward. Sounds like CCP has gotten it right again.
Does anyone remember deep space nine. That show was awesome. We all need to realize that we all must work together and make the most profit each of us can do. I sense the need for explorers. I feel that there will be rich guys sitting in station buying whatever the cost for the items that are out in space that they can use.
Its time to think beyond the NPC mission and the roid that is easy to find.
Originally by: Tuxford .....stuff... Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later.
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.03 08:45:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Gamer4liff
This system is more for those who took the time to max the research skills needed for RP gain. After all 100 rp/day is pretty pathetic, and what serious researcher researches with only one agent? You can get double that per agent anyway with lvl 4 R&D agents and higher research skills(on starship research). This system will probably be exactly what it needs to be to the group it needs to be used by, highly-skilled researchers. Also It helps everybody else out by getting RP out of the lottery. Oh and the 1500rp is for starship research cores it would appear, if you are compareing a non-starship agent's RP gain with the cost of a starship datacore it's not really a valid comparison. The other datacores will probably be much cheaper rp wise.
Agent level 4 + skill level 5 = 9 9^2 = 81 81*1,20 (quality) = 97,2 before field modifier, as stated so about 100 rp day is about the maximum before field modifier, you can top that with a very good standing, but not by much. As starship engineriing has a x3 modifier in RP, I suppose the same is true for datacores, so in a field without multipliers probably the price in RP is 500, 5 days with the best agents.
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Yaa
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Posted - 2006.11.03 09:08:00 -
[146]
Can anyone check if the RP cost for is same for all kind of data cores? Starship research is 3x modifier so maybe the cost is lower for other research areas (for example 500 RP for those areas with a 1x modifier)?
If it is the same then expect mechanical engineering data cores to be a lot more expensive to buy on the market.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:08:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Battle Tested The whole stink of this is gonna be the COSMOS 0.0 and the reason for this is whatever alliance controls them, they arent gonna let the "decryptors" or whatever the others are to get into circulation, they will remain in alliance hands only. None of them will make their way to empire hence giving invention to 0.0 alliances and not general public. AND if by chance one makes it to Empire...the price would be insane...Billions for one on escrow
What hole are you idiots all coming out of? This is a thread about Invention. Not about your lack of balls to enter 0.0 or your lack of skills to sneak around an alliance's space or your refusal to just join an alliance.
Also, I havn't seen anything that even says there will be some Invention items which only come from 0.0 space... (and decryptors arn't even a required item; they are optional.) Even if there are Invention items that only come from 0.0 space, they will easily make their way to empire just like everything else does and the prices will probably be really cheap after a few months.
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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Gigi Barbagrigia
Latent Appliance Fetishists
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:10:00 -
[148]
Originally by: caver I currently buy a "Datacore - Minmatar starship engineering" for 1500 RP :)
http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.46.38.png http://caver.org/eve/rd/2006.10.31.13.47.16.png
I clicked Cancel on the screenie ----- 42 |
Max Teranous
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.03 12:10:00 -
[149]
I think many people are looking at the worst possible outcome from this - using command ships as an example, without doubt the highest possible single use of T2 stuff. It's like looking at the stats of a Miner II, looking at a dreadnaught build cost and saying it's impossible to build!
We've seen 1500 RP for a single starship datacore. OK, using some judgement that probably means it's 500 RP for the x1 multiplyer fields. Max agent & skills shows that you get that in 5 days, so lets call it 1 week per core for not quite the best skills or agent. Any researcher will have 5 agents at least, so that's 5 costs per week.
It only takes 4 cores for most modules (cap recharger II, etc), so even not touching datacores from other sources, or having multiple R&D chars you can run a module invention job each week just on the incoming RP's, without touching your saved up RP's.
NOW DO R&D AGENT MISSIONS! Suddenly, your RP per day has just doubled.
Add in the fact that each BPC we get will probably be multiple runs, and I'm thinking it's looking good.
Max
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violator2k5
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 12:22:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Neverblu Edited by: Neverblu on 02/11/2006 16:51:43 Obtaining things in a mmo should not be of time constraint, it should be of chance.....and handing out 20 of each type of t2 bpo is not chance at all, who is to say all of those players leave eve, who is to say newer players dont have a chance in hell of getting any form of that sort of bpo....
there was a great chance in obtaining those 20 of each type of bpos. i take it you never even bothered to look at who got what t2 bpo and at what age they were......... The amount of young players i saw who had won a t2 ammo bpo was a shock in my eyes and even hearing a char who was very young won a hulk bpo. so the chances you speak of getting things in mmorpgs are there. its just that lazy people like yourself cant be bothered to get off their butts to actually research the game dynamics properly before commenting. the one thing that saderned me about those who won the t2 bpos was a lot of them sold them off without giving it much thought of the next chances of them wining one.
now as for myself owning a t2 bpo, i dont and i am researching for them but only in specific fields i hope to some day retrieve that email saying that ive got a chance at claiming a t2 bpo or t3 if it ever comes. so you can see im kinda in the same boat as you except i have knowledge of the ins and outs of industry inc t2 production / costs and profits. I also have respect for naal and his corp where as it seems you have none.
the thing is a lot of the profit margins have jumped its not down to the t2 bpo owners greed but rather to the resellers pushing the prices up. if not for them then i think prices would be better in the market today then they are already.
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Artmedis Valben
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Posted - 2006.11.03 12:27:00 -
[151]
Are the encryption skills really a must have or just increased chance as the dev blog indicated. I understood this to be optional like the tech 1 items, the data encryptors and the datacore skills.
It states that only invention skill, datacores and data interfaces are necessary.
To max out your chance you would need all of these. And if the chances were in accordance with other skills in the game, you should be able to get to above 90% chance of success on the mods and above 75% on the ships. This could be something like this: Invention skill: 7%/level for mods and 5%/level for ships Advanced skills (3 for each item) + 2%/level Item (5-25% depending on meta level) Encryptors: 50% more runs Or 5% additional chance.
Regarding runs and ME/PE level it seemed that there would be several factors. First a negative modifier, second a nerf to 10-20% of the remaining positive amount if any, and third a max number of runs, research level even if your copy should indicate higher amount after step one and two.
Any serious research character should be able to farm RPs from 5 agents, and make items/ships based on those RPs, training 3-6 different (rank 5) skills to increase his chance about 24-30%.
Those who dont train invention to level 5 and all relevant advanced skills to at least 4 should not be able to make big bucks from invention.
Dont forget that level 5 agents will be available sometime next year, so if you train your advanced sciences to level 5. (Similar investment in time as training to fly a command ship). And then the max RPs per day (without field modifier will be 100 + agent quality which can be as high as 50 with maxed out negotiations skill. so 140-150 RPs per day, needing just 3-4 days to get each Datacore if the price is 500RPs x field modifier.
Looking at inventing ships then: Command ship = 32 Datacores = 100+ days with one agent or 25+ days with 4. So 60-80% chance at a several run Command ship BPC every month. HAC = 16 datacores = so one several run HAC per 2 agents per month.
If you max out a rank 8 skill (research project management) you should be able to make several HACs and several Command ships every 3 out of 4 months, assuming you have everything maxed out. Seems like a business opportunity to me. To make this actually profitable you really need to invest in science skills to a similiar amount as a dread pilot needs to invest in spaceship, Navigation and gunnery/missiles/drones.
If however you are a dabbler in invention, you can still make your own ships or tech 2 items, at least a few each year. This is however an advanced profession much like piloting capital ships.
If you want to max out as a miner, you need huge investment in skill training. To fly the hulk, to use the tech 2 strips and crystals, to plug in the best implants, our if you want to be a maxed out mining director you need also to train for command ships and finish two advanced rank 5 and rank 6 leadership skills. It seems to me that a really successful commercial invention business needs serious training like mining, like capital ship piloting, like truly proficient production/refining character and many other skill trees in EVE. But unlike those this needs even more co-operation between players if you wish to invent more than just one or two products. No character will be able to invent everything successfully, no more than no character will be able to pilot all the motherships and titans in the game.
So if I am right, this seems like a very successfully implemented new skill and profession.
Artmedis Valben
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Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.11.03 13:02:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne
Originally by: Gamer4liff
This system is more for those who took the time to max the research skills needed for RP gain. After all 100 rp/day is pretty pathetic, and what serious researcher researches with only one agent? You can get double that per agent anyway with lvl 4 R&D agents and higher research skills(on starship research). This system will probably be exactly what it needs to be to the group it needs to be used by, highly-skilled researchers. Also It helps everybody else out by getting RP out of the lottery. Oh and the 1500rp is for starship research cores it would appear, if you are compareing a non-starship agent's RP gain with the cost of a starship datacore it's not really a valid comparison. The other datacores will probably be much cheaper rp wise.
Agent level 4 + skill level 5 = 9 9^2 = 81 81*1,20 (quality) = 97,2 before field modifier, as stated so about 100 rp day is about the maximum before field modifier, you can top that with a very good standing, but not by much. As starship engineriing has a x3 modifier in RP, I suppose the same is true for datacores, so in a field without multipliers probably the price in RP is 500, 5 days with the best agents.
Why should you be able get a datacore every day? anyhow as stated by others in the thread the main source of the datacores will be exploration so the point is moot anyway.
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: Battle Tested The whole stink of this is gonna be the COSMOS 0.0 and the reason for this is whatever alliance controls them, they arent gonna let the "decryptors" or whatever the others are to get into circulation, they will remain in alliance hands only. None of them will make their way to empire hence giving invention to 0.0 alliances and not general public. AND if by chance one makes it to Empire...the price would be insane...Billions for one on escrow
What hole are you idiots all coming out of? This is a thread about Invention. Not about your lack of balls to enter 0.0 or your lack of skills to sneak around an alliance's space or your refusal to just join an alliance.
Also, I havn't seen anything that even says there will be some Invention items which only come from 0.0 space... (and decryptors arn't even a required item; they are optional.) Even if there are Invention items that only come from 0.0 space, they will easily make their way to empire just like everything else does and the prices will probably be really cheap after a few months.
Stop trolling and get informed about something. The data interfaces have allready been stated to come only from 0.0 complexes. His point is valid and it is a cause for concern. Just look at all the other rare drops from complexes in 0.0, their prices reach ever higher.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.03 13:27:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Why should you be able get a datacore every day? anyhow as stated by others in the thread the main source of the datacores will be exploration so the point is moot anyway.
No, you are wrong. From Clover's blog: "The main avenue of getting your hands on Datacores is through research agents û you can use your research points to buy Datacores from the agent. "
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Stop trolling and get informed about something. The data interfaces have allready been stated to come only from 0.0 complexes. His point is valid and it is a cause for concern. Just look at all the other rare drops from complexes in 0.0, their prices reach ever higher.
I have not seen that it would be from 0.0. All that has been said is this (Clover's blog):
"A little extra on the Data Interfaces û they are not available on the market, you need to harvest the BPCs, skills and ingredients to build them from profession sites in the game (these sites will be hidden and need to be scanned for using the new exploration system)."
Most certainly there will be "profession sites" in 0.0, but nothing in here says it is only in 0.0 (or if you have other then please tell us where you have seen this)
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Orrin Danestarr
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Posted - 2006.11.03 15:33:00 -
[154]
Ok, Lets remember one thing here.... 32 datacores 16 in Racial Starship engineering 16 in Mechanical engineering
Perhaps i am mistaken, but starship engineering generates 3 times the rp than other research. Those 16 datacores for mechanical tho... sorry, you gotta wait 3 times as long for those.
Now, how fast can you invent now.... at best its 113.4 rp/day for mechanical engineering. 340 rp/day for your racial starship engineering. 13 days per agent per core... thats 71 days roughly to get the necessary datacores via your r & d agent. If you ran 3 mechanical and 2 racial starship engineering. Cut that in half if you do missions for your agent everyday... all of em. But of course, this is for inventing a commandship. Its less if you want to invent something else but you get the general idea.
Someone check my math, i put no clain to being a math wiz. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME |
Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.03 17:27:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne
Originally by: Gamer4liff
This system is more for those who took the time to max the research skills needed for RP gain. After all 100 rp/day is pretty pathetic, and what serious researcher researches with only one agent? You can get double that per agent anyway with lvl 4 R&D agents and higher research skills(on starship research). This system will probably be exactly what it needs to be to the group it needs to be used by, highly-skilled researchers. Also It helps everybody else out by getting RP out of the lottery. Oh and the 1500rp is for starship research cores it would appear, if you are compareing a non-starship agent's RP gain with the cost of a starship datacore it's not really a valid comparison. The other datacores will probably be much cheaper rp wise.
Agent level 4 + skill level 5 = 9 9^2 = 81 81*1,20 (quality) = 97,2 before field modifier, as stated so about 100 rp day is about the maximum before field modifier, you can top that with a very good standing, but not by much. As starship engineriing has a x3 modifier in RP, I suppose the same is true for datacores, so in a field without multipliers probably the price in RP is 500, 5 days with the best agents.
Why should you be able get a datacore every day? anyhow as stated by others in the thread the main source of the datacores will be exploration so the point is moot anyway.
Where I say I want to get a datacore every day? I was arguing your 100 rp/day pretty patetic. 500 RP is a bit high but still acceptable, the wile "from some hundred to some thousand" usually end in the some thousand, and that is high in field without multipliers.
About the number of copyes/quality the only word from a dev seem to imply that they will be always in the negative as efficency (later I will try to find the correct reference in another tread).
As working on invention has been compared to piloting a capital ship as the level of skills needed, I would like a return at least not too lower that what a capital ship pilot can get for his training.
Someone has suggested a 75-90% chance of success as a credible target with max skills and items.
Seeing other mini profession chance of success (archeology) I am not so sure.
As a good number of the post make clear we need more hard informations.
And it seem there is a cap as number of runs you can get in a BPC.
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.03 18:23:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne
[stuff]
And it seem there is a cap as number of runs you can get in a BPC.
One thought on materials required vs # of runs obtained...I hope none of you genuinely think plugging 1 run BPC of something will require same amount of materials as plugging 100run BPC of something... or at the very least will entail same success rate?
Basically, I am pointing out that the cost of getting 1run vs 100run should definitely not be the same! _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:30:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Bermag
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Why should you be able get a datacore every day? anyhow as stated by others in the thread the main source of the datacores will be exploration so the point is moot anyway.
No, you are wrong. From Clover's blog: "The main avenue of getting your hands on Datacores is through research agents û you can use your research points to buy Datacores from the agent. "
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Stop trolling and get informed about something. The data interfaces have allready been stated to come only from 0.0 complexes. His point is valid and it is a cause for concern. Just look at all the other rare drops from complexes in 0.0, their prices reach ever higher.
I have not seen that it would be from 0.0. All that has been said is this (Clover's blog):
"A little extra on the Data Interfaces û they are not available on the market, you need to harvest the BPCs, skills and ingredients to build them from profession sites in the game (these sites will be hidden and need to be scanned for using the new exploration system)."
Most certainly there will be "profession sites" in 0.0, but nothing in here says it is only in 0.0 (or if you have other then please tell us where you have seen this)
Thank you.
Gamer4liff, if you have some proof that there will be Invention stuff only available in 0.0, than please point me to it and I'll admit I was wrong. Otherwise you are the one trolling, not me.
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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Stephar
The High Priest
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:45:00 -
[158]
Just got this off Singularity: click
I also noticed that Expanded Cargohold II's have been reduced to 27.5% (as well as the Local Hull version). I remember Local Hull's being 27.44% on TQ? In any case, it looks like stats have been adjusted in anticipation of the new inventions.
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Mikal Drey
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:57:00 -
[159]
appart form unseeded TI bpos . . noone has mentioned exhumers ?
4x racial skills needed but what about ORE ships ?
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Yeggstry
Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.04 00:33:00 -
[160]
Forgive my ignorance if this has been answered before, and I know that not all the info is on sisi, but are all T2 items that have a T1 bpo available on market supposed to be inventable? for instance the 425mm rails can be invented but cap rechargers can't.
I'd also be interested to see if the initial bpc run makes a difference. Since the dev blog said there were skills to increase the runs of the resulting t2 bpc.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.11.04 01:57:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Mikal Drey appart form unseeded TI bpos . . noone has mentioned exhumers ?
4x racial skills needed but what about ORE ships ?
I think the exhumer bpos where given out by the gallente starship agents so they will probably require the gallente skill to invent.
_______________________________ It's great not being Amarr, isn't it?
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.04 02:24:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: Mikal Drey appart form unseeded TI bpos . . noone has mentioned exhumers ?
4x racial skills needed but what about ORE ships ?
I think the exhumer bpos where given out by the gallente starship agents so they will probably require the gallente skill to invent.
I hope you're not aiming at Skiffs _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Skeltek
Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.04 11:59:00 -
[163]
to make it really short: imho there should be some kind of technology tree and every corporation should be able to perform research, accumulating researchpoints per time, somehow similar to the skilltree.
The maximum amount of researchpoints a corporation should be able to accumulate should be restricted by the amount of researchcharacters in it. This would ensure that bigger corporations could be able to maintain the knowledge to produce more different products than a small corporation does or aim for fewer and harder to gain technologies.
It would make corporations have to trade with each other and each corp would have to choose, what products to be able to produce. Competition on the market would also ensure stability. A corporation should be able to drop a technologybranch if they want to research production methods of some different product. It could also get implemented that corps may also choose to dedicate themsleves to one race, improving their availability of racial stuff while restricting themsleves other inventions.
Just wanted to provide this as an alternative to existing ideas and suggestions, since this phylosophy/idea has guided me through the game since it was released. Shouldn¦t also be too hard to implement. Probability of such a system getting thought about and implemented pretty soon is almost zero I know, but my experience with development and balancing of other games has led me to believe, that good solutions don¦t always have to be complicated...
kind regards, Skeltek
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Oveur
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Posted - 2006.11.04 15:38:00 -
[164]
Invention has a boatload of variables to tune, ranging from the commonality of the exploration sites, the loot drop in those locaitons, the prices of datacores from agent, the individual effects of the items (bpc's, metamodules, tools etc.) used in the invention process and what the actual output is (runs, me, pe, how drastically more inefficient they are). We can therefore tune this in very many ways to balance it so it reaches our goals, to be an alternative way of getting in to upcomig Tech levels.
None of this will really be worth any speculation until it hits Tranquility, until then we rely on statistical models based on current TQ data and the playtesting feedback of individual parts of this process. Till then, that the sky is falling is entirely premature and the rumours of it's death overstated, unless you of course have access to our databases.
Senior Producer EVE Online
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Mikal Drey
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Posted - 2006.11.04 15:54:00 -
[165]
one of my biggest bug bears is the volume of items spawns.
this is based on my current experiece with COSMOS hackng etc..
having 1 item spawn per can makes me cry very much. i am currently haveing multiple issues with tring to actually build some of the COSMOS BPC's
how this is affecting invention . . well the wrecks and the yet to be seeded salvager module look to be exactly like the current COSMOS hacking and archaeology mechanics. which TBH looks good anbd already is a proven mechanic. but ive looked briefly at some of the screnies ( ty dark et al) and they have similar properties. getting 1 item per can might just prove fustrating as it is with cosmos.
Yes the number of people salvaging and the number of "wrecks2 willbe dramaticly different as the pop from NPC's but i would certainly like the "balance" of multiple iems per can looked into. PLZ
Also i was really h oping that "sleeper" and "angel tech" would drop from wrecks too Angel NPC's etc (racial specific) but it looks like you have introduced more new items to salvage for.
all in all it looks like there will be a precarious line to walk. you guys have the data we just have the lub :)
to Oveur : i think its more the lack of consistent and coherent information thats available to the playerbase. come on, you know how reactionary we all are and very very clicky finger forum fighters we can be :/
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.04 18:04:00 -
[166]
Edited by: Naal Morno on 04/11/2006 18:04:23
Originally by: Oveur [stuff]...unless you of course have access to our databases.
Oh no!You had to discover my hook up, didn't you?! _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
PhamNuwen
Caldari Bungee Jumper
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Posted - 2006.11.04 18:14:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Oveur Invention has a boatload of variables to tune, ranging from the commonality of the exploration sites, the loot drop in those locaitons, the prices of datacores from agent, the individual effects of the items (bpc's, metamodules, tools etc.) used in the invention process and what the actual output is (runs, me, pe, how drastically more inefficient they are). : None of this will really be worth any speculation until it hits Tranquility :
Maybe you could increase the role of faction standing now? Up to now there is now reason to cripple the standing to one of the empire factions (many peoples ignoring storyline missions because of this reason). But if the faction standing would really decrease the costs of data cores (or other parts of the invention-chain), many peoples have to reconsider there way of living in the world of EVE.
---
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Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.11.04 19:14:00 -
[168]
Originally by: PhamNuwen
Originally by: Oveur Invention has a boatload of variables to tune, ranging from the commonality of the exploration sites, the loot drop in those locaitons, the prices of datacores from agent, the individual effects of the items (bpc's, metamodules, tools etc.) used in the invention process and what the actual output is (runs, me, pe, how drastically more inefficient they are). : None of this will really be worth any speculation until it hits Tranquility :
Maybe you could increase the role of faction standing now? Up to now there is now reason to cripple the standing to one of the empire factions (many peoples ignoring storyline missions because of this reason). But if the faction standing would really decrease the costs of data cores (or other parts of the invention-chain), many peoples have to reconsider there way of living in the world of EVE.
This is also a good idea because it would make it harder for make-and-forget research alts to use invention. (or at least harder for them to get the cores).
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.04 22:46:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: PhamNuwen
Originally by: Oveur Invention has a boatload of variables to tune, ranging from the commonality of the exploration sites, the loot drop in those locaitons, the prices of datacores from agent, the individual effects of the items (bpc's, metamodules, tools etc.) used in the invention process and what the actual output is (runs, me, pe, how drastically more inefficient they are). : None of this will really be worth any speculation until it hits Tranquility :
Maybe you could increase the role of faction standing now? Up to now there is now reason to cripple the standing to one of the empire factions (many peoples ignoring storyline missions because of this reason). But if the faction standing would really decrease the costs of data cores (or other parts of the invention-chain), many peoples have to reconsider there way of living in the world of EVE.
This is also a good idea because it would make it harder for make-and-forget research alts to use invention. (or at least harder for them to get the cores).
Stnadings currently influence your agent's quality pretty drastically and the amount of RPs you get... A "fire and forget" researcher can only run low level L1 or L2 R&D agent getting really low number of RPs... they should be no comparison for high level dedicated multi agent researcher... _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.11.05 01:13:00 -
[170]
Edited by: Gamer4liff on 05/11/2006 01:16:17
Originally by: Naal Morno
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: PhamNuwen
Originally by: Oveur Invention has a boatload of variables to tune, ranging from the commonality of the exploration sites, the loot drop in those locaitons, the prices of datacores from agent, the individual effects of the items (bpc's, metamodules, tools etc.) used in the invention process and what the actual output is (runs, me, pe, how drastically more inefficient they are). : None of this will really be worth any speculation until it hits Tranquility :
Maybe you could increase the role of faction standing now? Up to now there is now reason to cripple the standing to one of the empire factions (many peoples ignoring storyline missions because of this reason). But if the faction standing would really decrease the costs of data cores (or other parts of the invention-chain), many peoples have to reconsider there way of living in the world of EVE.
This is also a good idea because it would make it harder for make-and-forget research alts to use invention. (or at least harder for them to get the cores).
Stnadings currently influence your agent's quality pretty drastically and the amount of RPs you get... A "fire and forget" researcher can only run low level L1 or L2 R&D agent getting really low number of RPs... they should be no comparison for high level dedicated multi agent researcher...
Well Yeah but I meant it more in the sense of somebody who grinded their way up to lvl 4 and then abandoned their character to the fates. A person who does constant missions increasing faction standing should be able to have an advantage over a fire and forget researcher.
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Harisdrop
Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.05 05:09:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Harisdrop on 05/11/2006 05:10:24 I went to test to buy some datacores and I dont have any of my R&D agents and NOOOOOOOO RP omg 2 years of rocket science RP poof two years of Mechanic RP poof. I want to make some cruise launcher II.
I have everything but my RP I want them soo I can show EVE the ease to make BPC.
Originally by: Tuxford .....stuff... Btw I did mess a bit with tech 2 ammo, I'll post a bit about that later.
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Jumpp
Oberon Incorporated Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.05 06:55:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Oveur Invention has a boatload of variables to tune...We can therefore tune this in very many ways to balance it so it reaches our goals, to be an alternative way of getting in to upcomig Tech levels...
As you say, it can all be tweaked. What really matters is the goal.
I wonder if you might be willing to elaborate a bit on the goals?
Suppose we were to look ahead to a year after the Invention system goes live. Suppose X (insert your favorite T2 item/ship here)'s are being produced every month from BPOs. How many would you like to see getting produced via invention? Total, across the whole economy? X? X/10? X*10?
I guess what I'm really trying to ask is: Do you see the Invention system as a minor brake on the worst excesses of the BPO monopolies? As a supplement that's supposed to more or less equal the importance of the BPO system? As a replacement that's intended to largely eclipse the BPO system?
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Der Ewige
Cataclysm Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.11.05 13:15:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Der Ewige on 05/11/2006 13:16:19 I need a little bit of clarification. I thought that the only source for Datacores would be the R&D agents. But in this devblog is writen:
Quote:
A little extra on the Data Interfaces û they are not available on the market, you need to harvest the BPCs, skills and ingredients to build them from profession sites in the game (these sites will be hidden and need to be scanned for using the new exploration system). On a side note, the same profession sites can also be harvested to get Datacores, Decryptors, skills and other relevant stuff.
True or not?
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.05 15:16:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Jumpp
Originally by: Oveur Invention has a boatload of variables to tune...We can therefore tune this in very many ways to balance it so it reaches our goals, to be an alternative way of getting in to upcomig Tech levels...
As you say, it can all be tweaked. What really matters is the goal.
I wonder if you might be willing to elaborate a bit on the goals?
Suppose we were to look ahead to a year after the Invention system goes live. Suppose X (insert your favorite T2 item/ship here)'s are being produced every month from BPOs. How many would you like to see getting produced via invention? Total, across the whole economy? X? X/10? X*10?
I guess what I'm really trying to ask is: Do you see the Invention system as a minor brake on the worst excesses of the BPO monopolies? As a supplement that's supposed to more or less equal the importance of the BPO system? As a replacement that's intended to largely eclipse the BPO system?
It might be a speculation on my part but somewhere betweenn a brake and supplement. Due to the fact that the result of long chain of events is just a BPC, inefficient at that (however today's definition of inefficient describes ME0, which doesn't matter since 10% saving on some theorethical ME infinity BPO is nothing to write home about), means that only the horribly overpriced items will be researched, aka. hulks and such... I don't see anybody reserching Heat Sinks 2 (they sell barely over manuf price) and other items with low profit margins. Researchers will also want to earn money not just make stuff for free! _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:57:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Ramblin Man on 06/11/2006 00:58:40
Edit Should have read to the end of the thread first. "Yeah, what he said."
Originally by: Oveur Invention has a boatload of variables to tune, ranging from the commonality of the exploration sites, the loot drop in those locaitons, the prices of datacores from agent, the individual effects of the items (bpc's, metamodules, tools etc.) used in the invention process and what the actual output is (runs, me, pe, how drastically more inefficient they are). We can therefore tune this in very many ways to balance it so it reaches our goals, to be an alternative way of getting in to upcomig Tech levels.
None of this will really be worth any speculation until it hits Tranquility, until then we rely on statistical models based on current TQ data and the playtesting feedback of individual parts of this process. Till then, that the sky is falling is entirely premature and the rumours of it's death overstated, unless you of course have access to our databases.
Just as a request, is there any way (perhaps in a carefully worded devblog?) that you could shed some light on what your goals are? I enjoy a surprise as much as the next person, so I'd really rather not have complete certainty. Despite that, though, a hint as to what direction you're taking the T2 market would,
A) Lower T2 producers' blood pressures B) Invigorate T2 BPO auctions (and reduce pro- and anti-T2 speculative spam associated with them) C) Reassure the general EVE population and get them thinking likewise
You can go whatever direction you like, and of course there's going to be "RABBLE!RABBLE!RABBLE!" However, releasing a bit more information before it smacks some people very hard in their faces might be a bit more humane way of going about things . After all, think of the poor moderators when it hits Tranq.
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Kai DeathCutter
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:49:00 -
[176]
Hi,
I was just grabbing a screenie of the min reqs for the new BS and BCs and I noticed the invention tab.
It seems that these ships can be invented. Does that mean we can invent T2 BS?
This seems wrong to me, I was expecting some unavailable item, but its just more of the same compared to frigs/cruisers.
What mechanism will stop this possibility?
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Deiqanah
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Posted - 2006.11.06 14:50:00 -
[177]
Will ALL tech 1 BPCs that have an ingame tech 2 equivalent (seeded item or BPOs) be inventable? Will drones be inventable? Will it be possible to accidentally invent using a BPO? Will that in anyway be better than using a max run BPC? Will it be possible to start invention jobs on noninventable items? like New BS? Unseeded items? with 0% chance of success, or will the invention tab be removed from all of those?
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Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.11.06 14:55:00 -
[178]
My biggest beef with invention (without being able to test it yet) is the increase in BPC demand that will result. More copy slots are needed at NPC labs (say 10 more) and POS mobile labs (2 more). If nerfing one of the other slot types is necessary, take them out of PE, since there is almost never a station or research POS that has used up all its PE slots.
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Artmedis Valben
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Posted - 2006.11.06 15:09:00 -
[179]
It seems obvious that like with some other BPC creations the number of runs will not be affected by the amount of materials used. When creating a ship component BPC or a Deep-core mining laser I BPC, the number of runs has no effect on the required materials needed to make each BPC.
Same with copying tech 2 BPOs you are restricted by the max 30 days to how many runs or how many copies you can make.
I think it is reasonable to think that under no circumstance should invention give more runs than is the possible max per copy from a tech 2 BPO. Usually it should be lower, although a maxed out inventor with a max run tech 1 copy and a run increase interface should be able to get close to that max.
Invention states no skill required to do an invention job, so its obvious that there will be a base chance, plus x%/level of invention, +y% per metalevel of added item, + z% of each skill level in the relevant fields.
Dont know why some items have invention tabs even when there is no tech 2 item equivalent and some items have no invention tab even when there is a tech 2 equivalent. Maybe a bug, maybe they plan to introduce invention in a piecemeal fashion, which will give those who invested in the correct type of RPs an advantage.
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Lord Goodberry
Gallente Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.06 18:12:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Lord Goodberry on 06/11/2006 18:32:40 Edited by: Lord Goodberry on 06/11/2006 18:18:16 I think one of the biggest concerns for the R & D profession is the need to have a mechanical core for almost every invention bp at this point.
I agree that people should not see the R & D profession as passive, since science players forfeit putting skill time into PvP skills in order to build science skills. I could have put the 10 Mil I invested in science,( with probably another 5 mil in 'prequisites') into gun or missile skills and been an ultimate Pvp'er but instead invested in science. Lets hope that CCP get's the formula right for those that dedicated science as a primary objective as part of their play.
Also CCP should look at those who keep their agents active by roleplaying and running the minerals/courier missions. I regularly have to fly thru dozens of 0.0-0.2-0.4 systems (to get to Heydieles and Oerse) on a regular basis to keep my RD agents 'busy'. Been podded a few dozen times in the process...so it's not exactly 'passive' or risk free
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.07 02:48:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Mack Dorgeans My biggest beef with invention (without being able to test it yet) is the increase in BPC demand that will result. More copy slots are needed at NPC labs (say 10 more) and POS mobile labs (2 more). If nerfing one of the other slot types is necessary, take them out of PE, since there is almost never a station or research POS that has used up all its PE slots.
"More copy slots are needed at NPC labs (say 10 more)" NO! Besides obvious "too easy", it will prevent a need to run POS for Labs. "and POS mobile labs (2 more). " - why? if the number is fine or ok now, it will certainly be more than satisfactory once Invention items are run in it as they will be more profitable than current production.
Don't make it too easy! _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.11.07 04:13:00 -
[182]
So, the most popular research type, copying, should have half as many slots in NPC stations as PE research, the least popular? It should have one-third as many slots in mobile labs?
It's not about ease, it's about making copy slots available to people who can't afford to run large tower POSes. Maybe 10 in stations and 2 in mobiles are too many more, but currently there are too few.
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Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:01:00 -
[183]
Note: on the current Singularity build, there are 20 invention slots per NPC research station, the same as ME and PE. Copy slots are still just 10 per station.
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Kai Lae
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:36:00 -
[184]
You need to update your sig nomad :)
Raptor and Ares Fix |
Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.07 17:57:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Mack Dorgeans Note: on the current Singularity build, there are 20 invention slots per NPC research station, the same as ME and PE. Copy slots are still just 10 per station.
I really don't see what the problem might be here...the truth is T1 BPO copies fast as hell and with invention taking forever and then some to finish running you certainly won't hit a huge labs bottlenect on BPC Copy. You will on invention but I guess that is intended (deploy a POS!)
_________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:03:00 -
[186]
The point is, the demand for copy slots and their rarity already means long queues at most stations, and that's before the additional demand for copies that invention will bring.
As for POSes, my corp already runs mobile labs. I'm not worried about my own ability to find slots. Not everyone can afford the time or cost to run POSes, however. Maybe I shouldn't complain, because that means more demand for the BPCs we make, but I have this silly notion that people who want to do research shouldn't be forced to have POSes when there are stations available. I also think if they DO go to the trouble of running POSes, they should get more copy slots per mobile lab.
When the changes were made to research slots to break up the 50 all-purpose station slots into 20 ME, 20 PE, and 10 copy, it seemed like the intent was to keep the total number of slots at 50, and copy got the shaft even though everyone knows PE is the least used research function. Now invention is added with 20 slots, and copy will still be stuck with just 10 per station. Copying is a good business for research characters, but the way it is now, the availability limits that activity to only those who can afford to tie up their BPOs in long queues or run their own POSes.
As for copy times, I personally think T2 copy times are too long. There's no good reason for that other than keeping the larger T2 production houses fat and happy. It should not take longer to photocopy a set of instructions than it does to make the actual item. If there were more copy slots available and a copy took only as long as a build (if not less), then more T2 BPCs would be produced and sold, allowing people other than T2 BPO owners the ability to make their own T2, using building skills that currently only a select few have a use for.
If there's a desire to make researching and the sciences more active skills, why not give more people the ability to make use of them? Miners, fighters, and traders all have plenty of ships, equipment, and tools to practice their professions in a variety of ways. Why should scientists be more limited in what they can do? Shouldn't all professions be deep, interesting, and fun?
------
Oh, and my sig is fine -- we still have all those things for sale, even though a couple of the T2 prints have been sold. When we run out of products or add more assets, I'll change my sig.
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Lord Goodberry
Gallente Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:20:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Lord Goodberry on 07/11/2006 19:20:37 To: Chief Technology CEO, UberGeekPrime
SUBJECT Field Test report #1 Invention to further advance our development and break free of the reins of the monopolies on T2 ship and module production
Split and set-up Duvolle research agents up to research Gallente Starship Engineering as well as High Energy Physics. Started reading up on Astrometrics and strengthening my Serpentis Data Encryption skills to accomodate the new invention theory of study.
The Starship team is plugging away fairly fast and I will soon be able to accumulate 8 starship data cores. This will provide enough starship cores for use with a Exequror BPC. Using this print in conjunction with certain datacores theoretically yield a T2 cruiser print, the Oneiros Recon ship. Unfortunately the current print require 8 Mechanical Engineering datacores. I have yet to find a Duvolle research associate who specializes in this research. In addition an Icognito Data ship interface is required. I believe I overheard some scouts mention an archaelogical site location in Saidusairos system that might hold one. Will investigate and see if my purchasing dept can acquire one from the scouts. I might have to face the hazards in that low sec system myself, luckily my ship "Cloak nDagger" is nearing completion.
I request assistance or direction on two details to complete my assigned mission
- Where should I search for Mechanical Engineering Datacores? Even conjectures would be appreciated
- The agents are quite demanding in terms of research funds. Is there any way we could 'persuade' them to part with the datacores at a more resonable 'price'?
Wihout getting over these two hurdles, I'd guess that our Invention mission will probably not have a signifiacant affect on our T2 production. This will just drive us back into the 'claws' of the T2 monpolies.
Please advise
Lord "Virtual Proof of Murphy's Law" Goodberry
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Orrin Danestarr
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Posted - 2006.11.07 19:34:00 -
[188]
Edited by: Orrin Danestarr on 07/11/2006 19:35:03 Your going to have to coordinate with another person who is spamming mechanical engineering research. If your trying to do this solo, id suggest you have3 mechanical engineer agents and 2 starship. Its gonna slow down your invention but you will be able to do it solo.
Try uping another corp standing to get access to mechanical engineering agents "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME |
Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:47:00 -
[189]
Mack, if you want to solve the current copy problem, rather than making it easy for everyone to spam copy slots why not just change the current POS lab system into 3 seperate modules:
Research Lab 3 ME slots 2 PE slots 1 copy slot 1 Invention slot
Copy Lab 4 copy slots 1 ME slot 1 PE slot 1 Invention Slot
Invention Lab 4 Invention slots 1 ME slot 1 PE slot 1 Copy slot
Yes, it requires people to set up POS for more copy slots, but tbh, if you made more copy slots freely available in normal stations all that would happen is they get filled the same as they are now. At least this way the dedicated researchers will always have their slots available to use for themselves, improves the market for POS fuels, and gets more people into developing space rather than relying on current infrastructure. ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
Lord Goodberry
Gallente Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:58:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Lord Goodberry on 07/11/2006 23:59:28 To Chief CEO UberGeekprime
Report from associate Orrin indicated that we would probably have to go outside our 'realm' of Duvolle to accomodate Invention.
Any chance of speaking to the Duvolle Corp master and asking him to recruit some hungry and eager mechanical engineers? It's either that or diluting our 'brotherhood' ties and and associating with an additional R & D Corp. Please advise
Off the record Orrin, have any recommendations as to a top notch mechanical engineer in Gallente space to work with? I'd like to see if I can get close to an invention BPC soon. Thanks kindly for the feedback.
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LiBraga
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:43:00 -
[191]
Here's an idea, it maybe crazy but.....
How about you re-seed the T2 bpos forever requiring alot of work with the R&D agents. This would remove the unfair advantage of those with T2 bpos. Eventually T2 bpos would become common place from the agents as T1 are from market. Then.... NEVER use the system again. But use the invention system for T3 items... so T3 bpos would never exsist... only the T3 bpc's which would be agent rewards for research or loyalty points.
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Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.11.08 01:16:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Omber Zombie Edited by: Omber Zombie on 08/11/2006 00:12:55 Mack, if you want to solve the current copy problem, rather than making it easy for everyone to spam copy slots why not just change the current POS lab system into 3 seperate modules:
Research Lab 3 ME slots 2 PE slots 1 copy slot 1 Invention slot
Copy Lab 4 copy slots 1 ME slot 1 PE slot 1 Invention Slot
Invention Lab 4 Invention slots 1 ME slot 1 PE slot 1 Copy slot
Yes, it requires people to set up POS for more copy slots, but tbh, if you made more copy slots freely available in normal stations all that would happen is they get filled the same as they are now. At least this way the dedicated researchers will always have their slots available to use for themselves, improves the market for POS fuels, and gets more people into developing space rather than relying on current infrastructure.
edit: i posted the idea here, I'd suggest continuing the discussion there
That's not a bad idea for giving people with POSes more ability to customize their research facilities.
Still, I think PE slots are too common at 20 per NPC station and copy slots too rare. Yes, they would get filled, but that's thousands more chances for people to do copies.
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Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.08 02:50:00 -
[193]
PE slots are generally used for t2 or capital research, long jobs essentially. Having more copy sltos available in stations would only generate a larger flood of bpc's from the same people already hoarding slots rather than help fix the problem.
Let the people using station slots continue to use them, but make it attractive to people to set up POS and you will see more copies being created (your stated goal), more t2 bpc's being created due to the time required to copy being reduced (your other stated goal, I still see it as being unlikely that people will make copies rather than build tho) as well as helping to improve the POS market.
Why fix one problem with one solution when you can fix multiple problems with one solution :) ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
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Posted - 2006.11.08 06:39:00 -
[194]
Actually, more POS copy slots doesn't necessarily result in more T2 copies being made. Even with the copy time reduction, most T2 BPOs are not worth diverting from production to create copies. Those T2 items that are poor enough sellers to make copying feasible don't really need more copies made, either.
Even if any new copy slots in stations were gobbled up quickly (as they would almost definitely be in high sec research stations), it would still increase the available slots and give more people access to them. The highest-traffic systems will always have a lot of max-time queues, but in other places doubling the available copy slots would have an effect, with fewer maxed-out queues and more open slots. There are only so many slots one character can manage (11), so unless those people gobbling up slots now use more characters to do research, there are going to be more chances at copy slot time for those who don't currently use them. Plus, if invention demand for BPCs broadens the copy market, the supply should come from all sources, not just POS labs.
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Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.08 07:01:00 -
[195]
As I said, I doubt t2 copies would be increased too much, but I don't think I seem to be explaining my point properly: BPC's are currently too cheap to produce, so everyone does it. Creating some 'cost' to produce them as well as allieviating some of the queues is a better way to fix that problem than to simply add more copy slots.
Invention (as far as I can tell) is supposed to help reduce the prices of t2, not destroy profit margins completely. By increasing copy slots in stations all you do is allow even more people to just create throwaway alts to produce copies, flood the resource (bpc's) and have a minimal cost involved. At least through POS copying you have some sort of effort involved in producing that resource, and it is done at a slight cost. ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 10:19:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Lord Goodberry I think one of the biggest concerns for the R & D profession is the need to have a mechanical core for almost every invention bp at this point.
Not every invention but all the starships and a lot of armor/hull stuff require mechanical cores AFAIK. This might become a bottleneck if we don't get more R&D agents with mechanical engineering. Ever R&D corp has starship engieneering but I think only Minmatar R&D corps have mechanical engineering as research speciality.
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Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.08 11:57:00 -
[197]
kaalakiota has mech eng ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 13:03:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Omber Zombie kaalakiota has mech eng
Yes true, forgot about them. However their best lvl 4 R&D agent is quality -14 though
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Orrin Danestarr
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Posted - 2006.11.08 14:56:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Lord Goodberry Edited by: Lord Goodberry on 07/11/2006 23:59:28 To Chief CEO UberGeekprime
Report from associate Orrin indicated that we would probably have to go outside our 'realm' of Duvolle to accomodate Invention.
Any chance of speaking to the Duvolle Corp master and asking him to recruit some hungry and eager mechanical engineers? It's either that or diluting our 'brotherhood' ties and and associating with an additional R & D Corp. Please advise
Off the record Orrin, have any recommendations as to a top notch mechanical engineer in Gallente space to work with? I'd like to see if I can get close to an invention BPC soon. Thanks kindly for the feedback.
Im not familar with many of the r & d corps, i jsut know core complextion. Core has a few mechanical, some are lvl 2, a couple lvl 3 and a lvl 4. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME |
Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.11.08 22:03:00 -
[200]
While Invention is definitely a step in the right direction, it will really be only worth it for big ticket stuff (like HACs). People who hold, say, T2 drone BPOs, will still be able to print ISK. And "inventing" T2 hybrid ammo... You've got to be kidding me. Won't be worth the effort. Why not, in addition to invention, 1. Seed more T2 item BPOs (not necessarily ship BPOs, but gun, ammo, drone, missile, and tank BPOs for sure) 2. Introduce anti-monopolist measures. If a character, his alts, or his corp come to possess more than one BPO for a certain item, another BPO gets seeded automatically, so that monopolies are harder to create.
Right now, as I understand, BPOs get seeded only if the production level goes down. It does not work, because many greedy manufacturers produce items, don't release them on the market, and then go ahead and brag about it on the forums. Oh, and sell ISK on Ebay. This is just wrong, and has to stop...
Also see this thread
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Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:09:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Why not, in addition to invention, 1. Seed more T2 item BPOs (not necessarily ship BPOs, but gun, ammo, drone, missile, and tank BPOs for sure) 2. Introduce anti-monopolist measures. If a character, his alts, or his corp come to possess more than one BPO for a certain item, another BPO gets seeded automatically, so that monopolies are harder to create.
Right now, as I understand, BPOs get seeded only if the production level goes down. It does not work, because many greedy manufacturers produce items, don't release them on the market, and then go ahead and brag about it on the forums. Oh, and sell ISK on Ebay. This is just wrong, and has to stop...
Also see this thread
what does this mini-rant have to do with invention? ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:43:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Omber Zombie
what does this mini-rant have to do with invention?
It has a lot to do with Invention. Since Invention alone will not fix the numerous problems current Tech 2 system has, I have invited people to discuss ways of fixing it.
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Gamesguy
Amarr Reunited O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.09 04:24:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Omber Zombie
what does this mini-rant have to do with invention?
It has a lot to do with Invention. Since Invention alone will not fix the numerous problems current Tech 2 system has, I have invited people to discuss ways of fixing it.
My idea from another thread.
Quote: Simple answer is to give invention the option of making BPOs, add to the list of materials the T2 item you're trying to invent(as optional), which will dramatically increase the odds of getting a few BPCs and/or give a chance to get a BPO of the T2 item(with very horrible ME and disable ME research on it).
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.11.09 07:22:00 -
[204]
What problems can't Invention, in the general sense, hypothetically fix?!
T2 is T2 for a reason.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.09 08:47:00 -
[205]
Why is there no invention options for:
- Mining barges - Ammo - Drones
Inentional or not done yet?
I doubt that it will be worth it to do invention for ammo, but drones might be depending on how many runs you get on the bpc.
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:07:00 -
[206]
From another thread, by Mephisto:
Any ship wreck will stand a chance of having salvagable components. All of the T1 rig blueprints will be seeded on the market. All the T2 rig blueprints will have to be created via invention. ie, there will be no released T2 rig BPO's.
So, another datacore sink?
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Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:22:00 -
[207]
My background are R&D (with 16m of sp in science) this new invention with Pos needed and access to data item in 0.0 Discriminate small corporation which at present have no access to 0.0 because of the politics of Claimer which fires in seen on neutrals
To Settle a pos in 0.0 for a small corporation or a freelancer remains suicidal
i suppose that the data Tool for invention will be shall once again be the object of monopoly on the market following the example of objects Named
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.09 14:01:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Jdestars My background are R&D (with 16m of sp in science) this new invention with Pos needed and access to data item in 0.0 Discriminate small corporation which at present have no access to 0.0 because of the politics of Claimer which fires in seen on neutrals
To Settle a pos in 0.0 for a small corporation or a freelancer remains suicidal
i suppose that the data Tool for invention will be shall once again be the object of monopoly on the market following the example of objects Named
Eh? Nobody tells you to install POS in 0.0 to be able to do invention. You can do it in an NPC station granted you find any slots open.
Stop ranting.
_________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
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Posted - 2006.11.09 14:16:00 -
[209]
during my test invention Service wasnt avaible in npc station
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.11.09 17:05:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Jdestars during my test invention Service wasnt avaible in npc station
Originally by: Mephysto Ok, so I know its not working on Singularity yet, but discuss it here please.
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MeLoveYouLoooongTime
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Posted - 2006.11.09 18:51:00 -
[211]
Just my $.02, but this whole invention thing seems absolutely retarted. So much work for a POSSIBILITY of creating a T2 BPC. Who's really gonna spend all their time on this? I predict this has absolutely no affect on current T2 prices. What a waste of development time CCP...
Why don't you change the set-up to offer a chance... be it very slim... of creating a BPO and make it worth peoples time to bother with this.
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Orrin Danestarr
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Posted - 2006.11.09 19:37:00 -
[212]
Invention is an important thing... a step in the right direction. Granted its not perfect but tis better than nothing. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME |
Lord Goodberry
Gallente Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.09 19:42:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Lord Goodberry on 09/11/2006 19:41:54
To: Chief Technology CEO, UberGeekPrime
SUBJECT Field Test report #2 Invention to further advance our development and break free of the reins of the monopolies on T2 ship and module production--Mechanical Engineering
I have removed our channeled resources to two of our low earning Agents and now will pursue other 'avenues' per our collegue Orrin's recommendations and data. I am considering either Kaakliotta or Core as our means to produce mechanical engineering datacores. Working with several political parties atm to access some of their mid level agents now.
The 4 agents Starship team is still plugging away fairly fast. We can probably assemble 7 Starship cores at this time but have not implemented their construction yet.
I have scheduled myself to visit several low sec system myself with the hiring of 'bodyguards' of course, "Cloak nDagger" is completed and I have acquired the skills necessary to pilot her.
I have put in several purchase requisitions for some advanced Astrometric Equipment necessary for scanning and would appreciate your prompt approval so I caan get moving along.
Out of character to the complainers and conjecturers, the developers need us to playtest the invention system to make sure it's properly implemented. If you want invention to be a 'success' suggest you get into Singularity and playtest it. Keep in mind that what we see is a probably a very early "Alpha" build and will most likely get reworked quite a few times
I doubt the final intent is to drive down the prices of T2 gear but rather make T2 gear available in several different fashions. Portability of T2 equipment and ships seems to have huge potential. Imagine carrying a "fleet" of T2 command ships in a cloaked convoy's cargo hold...the possibilities...
Lord "Murphy" Goodberry
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Orrin Danestarr
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Posted - 2006.11.09 20:08:00 -
[214]
The biggest hurdle you guys are facing is the mechanical engineering aspect. You might need several people doing nothing but mechanical engineering to aquire the necessary datacores to attempt your invention process. As long as you can get enough mechanical cores, the starzship aspect isnt going to be an issue. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME |
Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.09 20:43:00 -
[215]
A little snippet of informations: T2 rigging BP will be available only trough invention (I suppos those will be BPC only). The one I had the chance to examine require 6 datacores for research. (was an armor rigging, no one mechanical, at least).
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Dutarro
Kydance Radiant Industries Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.09 20:52:00 -
[216]
Has anyone actually found a Data Interface on SiSi yet? .. or even heard of anyone who found a Data Interface? ------------------------ *opinions stated are not necessarily those of my corporation or alliance |
Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.11.09 22:17:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Bermag Why is there no invention options for:
- Mining barges - Ammo - Drones
Inentional or not done yet?
I doubt that it will be worth it to do invention for ammo, but drones might be depending on how many runs you get on the bpc.
No DRONE invention???? Hammerhead IIs are now more than 2 million, and rising. Some greedy son of a lesser strain mother have just eliminated Tech II drones from the game. And Invention won't fix it We need another solution in addition to invention. Dear devs, please nerf the T2 BPOs! They are really broken right now!
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Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
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Posted - 2006.11.09 22:35:00 -
[218]
There is as a rule so much type of datacore as research way.
On the other hand it is effectively necessary to have datacore of the mecanic research way see following screen
making tool
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Lord Goodberry
Gallente Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.10 00:49:00 -
[219]
I'm guessing that to make T2 Ships viable via Invention CCP will have to 'tweak' the material requirements quite a but.
As to the Esoteric being found, I don't think it's been seeded in game yet. My guess is in the next patch or two.
Seems most of the playtesting and hype has been in regards to the new ships,,,
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Inairin
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Posted - 2006.11.10 08:26:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Inairin on 10/11/2006 08:26:29
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Bermag Why is there no invention options for:
- Mining barges - Ammo - Drones
Inentional or not done yet?
I doubt that it will be worth it to do invention for ammo, but drones might be depending on how many runs you get on the bpc.
No DRONE invention???? Hammerhead IIs are now more than 2 million, and rising. Some greedy son of a lesser strain mother have just eliminated Tech II drones from the game. And Invention won't fix it We need another solution in addition to invention. Dear devs, please nerf the T2 BPOs! They are really broken right now!
Try find something to invent cloaks from too.
Seems like CCP is trying to make invention useless for anything but maybe rigs. Ships: require 250 billion datacores. The few super exepensive other T2 items: not availible through invention. Are ccp employees given private acess to all T2 BPOs and sell the cash generated trough them or what the **** is going on here?
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Xaildaine
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Posted - 2006.11.10 11:33:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Inairin Try find something to invent cloaks from too.
Seems like CCP is trying to make invention useless for anything but maybe rigs. Ships: require 250 billion datacores. The few super exepensive other T2 items: not availible through invention. Are ccp employees given private acess to all T2 BPOs and sell the cash generated trough them or what the **** is going on here?
This has been suggested and is widely thought to be the case though its not realy mentiond much on these boards.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:51:00 -
[222]
Looks, that CCP doesnt want to remove BPO and market monopoly from the game. It is not very good sign for regular player.
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.11.10 18:04:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Zixxa Looks, that CCP doesnt want to remove BPO and market monopoly from the game. It is not very good sign for regular player.
Monopolies don't just randomly confer themselves upon a player. The regular player is the one running a monopoly, and the regular player is the one supporting a monopoly.
You have a problem with it, start buying T2 BPOs (yes, it is possible) and/or spearhead a persistent boycott on T2 goods.
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Kayle Ki
Ktaomai Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.11.11 01:54:00 -
[224]
I'm interested to know how many BPOs will be seeded into the lottery when Kali hits. As I understand it, the BPO lottery will still exist, you simply also have the option of spending your research points on datacores if you wish.
A combination of even slightly lowered datacore costs, and a sizable amount of new t2 BPOs seeded into the lottery, would do wonders.
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.11 08:12:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Ramblin Man
Originally by: Zixxa Looks, that CCP doesnt want to remove BPO and market monopoly from the game. It is not very good sign for regular player.
Monopolies don't just randomly confer themselves upon a player. The regular player is the one running a monopoly, and the regular player is the one supporting a monopoly.
You have a problem with it, start buying T2 BPOs (yes, it is possible) and/or spearhead a persistent boycott on T2 goods.
The problem is that in EVE the monopolyes are unbreackable because: 1) the number of BPO is fixed, and unchangeable; 2) there isn't the possibility to build a similar, even if lesser quality, item, like a named item and the difference in quality between a t2 and a T1 is usually too large; 3) the situation has festered long enogh to consolidate the good BPO in the hand of the ones with the deepest pockets, pockets filled even more by the BPO, so 0 chanche to buy them.
A boicott. Funny proposal, try getting that to 200K players, I think you will get RSI for the attempt and be banned for spamming.
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Ihar Enda
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.11 09:05:00 -
[226]
Any info on how cloaks invention is supposed to work, given that a tech 2 item is required to build another tech 2 item?
And by the way, is the Prototype Cloaking Device I BPO available somewhere?
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Ariel Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.11 18:40:00 -
[227]
Yea, could those on Sisi let us know if they've got Expanded Cargo, Shield Boost Amplifier, Cloak and Damage Control BPOs on the market there? And any other non-market T1 BPOs that dont exist in Kali yet.
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Rosehunter
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Posted - 2006.11.12 03:26:00 -
[228]
I have one word for everybody T3 items, the devs stated that invetion will be the only way to build T3 items in the future. So think of this as a frame work being built for those items, and also keep in mind this is only Alpha testing for teh kali build.
-Rosehunter
00.02 cents worth if you dont like it find me in 0.0 |
Lobo Noturno
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Posted - 2006.11.12 17:05:00 -
[229]
I did some research today in Sisi, and I noticed that there is NO agent in gallente confederation that works in mechanical engineering... How are the Gallente supposed to get mechanical datacores, required for ALL starship inventions???? I found such agents in Minmatar, Caldari and Ammarian corporations. I understand this might not be a hot gallente research topic, but we need at least one of those, maybe 4-5 spread on the R&D gallente corps...
On the RP cost per core, I guess it depends on how many runs we can get the t2 bpcs from it. If we can do it for 500 or 1000 run bpcs, then I totaly agree with a very high cost. On the other hand, if there is a limit to, let's say, 5-runs, then the cores should be around 200 rp per unit. Otherwise, invention will be so time consuming no one will bother with it, being easier and faster to just make more isk and buy t2 items from the current BPO owners.
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Lady Beauvoir
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Posted - 2006.11.12 21:47:00 -
[230]
Related to needed datacores for invention job:
why not simply require only datacores from the field your planning on using invention? ie. if you want to invent T2 ships (starship eng.), the agent would just require starship engineering datacores available from him (and other similar agents). If some researchers had decided to specialize in a certain field in, say, 2005, they would not have to either purchase additional datacores from the market or waste their RP's by switching to a different agent. This way all your previous research would be 100% re-usable if you decided to cash in your RP's and start doing inventions.
To me, the it would seem plausible to require simply the needed datacore which is available from the agent himself and additional items which can be found elsewhere (these new exploration sites, T2 moon materials, high-quality T1 items and whatnot).
Personally, I'm also interested in what kind of role the developers had planned for invention, as some previous posters have mentioned. Also, could someone shed light on whether there will be T2 BPO's seeded into the lottery in the future - thus, do we need to make a choice between waiting for the jackpot or admitting defeat and trying to cash in what we can?
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.12 21:53:00 -
[231]
Invention is meant to supplement and aid current T2 system on items whose profit margins are very high, not to replace T2 BPOs with low cost/effort alternative.
As such, perceived high cost of producing the BPCs sounds right.
_________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.11.13 00:33:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne
Originally by: Ramblin Man
Originally by: Zixxa Looks, that CCP doesnt want to remove BPO and market monopoly from the game. It is not very good sign for regular player.
Monopolies don't just randomly confer themselves upon a player. The regular player is the one running a monopoly, and the regular player is the one supporting a monopoly.
You have a problem with it, start buying T2 BPOs (yes, it is possible) and/or spearhead a persistent boycott on T2 goods.
The problem is that in EVE the monopolyes are unbreackable because: 1) the number of BPO is fixed, and unchangeable; 2) there isn't the possibility to build a similar, even if lesser quality, item, like a named item and the difference in quality between a t2 and a T1 is usually too large; 3) the situation has festered long enogh to consolidate the good BPO in the hand of the ones with the deepest pockets, pockets filled even more by the BPO, so 0 chanche to buy them.
A boicott. Funny proposal, try getting that to 200K players, I think you will get RSI for the attempt and be banned for spamming.
10B for a decent T2 print? With a 10-15 player corp you could have easily scraped up that kind of change over the last year.
True, if the owners don't want to sell then they can't be forced into it, but saying that the prints are unreachable for the majority of EVE players is just erroneous.
Also, boycotts are perfectly possible. There's a multitude of OoG communication/organization methods which won't get you banned. I didn't say it would be easy; I said it would be possible.
I'll campaign just as hard as anyone else against injustice, but justice and inequality are two different topics. Go read Rawls if you disagree.
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Kaden Seer
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Posted - 2006.11.13 09:21:00 -
[233]
This a placeholder, will the devs EVER reseed the BPOs?
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.13 10:06:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Lady Beauvoir Related to needed datacores for invention job:
why not simply require only datacores from the field your planning on using invention? ie. if you want to invent T2 ships (starship eng.), the agent would just require starship engineering datacores available from him (and other similar agents).?
Starship engineering and mechanical eng have both been used all time for the T2 lotter for ship BPOs. However starship eng had 3x modifier on RP.
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.13 12:05:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Jdestars Edited by: Jdestars on 10/11/2006 11:07:29 There is as a rule so much type of datacore as research way.
On the other hand it is effectively necessary to have datacore of the mecanic research way see following screen
making tool liste of DataCore
Someone has noticed the little bit in the "making tool" screenshot where it say ship data interface - 100% damage job ? Not reusable then.
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Unfamed II
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.13 13:53:00 -
[236]
Anyone else noticed that there is no invention tab in covetor bpc/bpo? At least there wasnt some time a go, haven't checked since. Does this mean Hulks can't be made from invention? Seriously, it's not that great being an amarr, is it?
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Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.13 17:21:00 -
[237]
Please reduce the RP cost of datacores to a more reasonable amount, and by reasonable I mean something that doesn't require 6 months of research to make ONE ATTEMPT at getting a 5 run ship bpc. 3-6 weeks I can understand, but not 6 months.
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Yggdrassil
Amarrian Missionaires
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Posted - 2006.11.13 19:39:00 -
[238]
Somehow... I wish they had implemented the t2 bpo seeding in a slightly different manner - with NO cap on how many bpo's that were to be given. Perhaps it's still possible for T3?
I would make it go something like this:
1st bpo given: x amount of RP in a field. Say 1000 as an example. 2nd bpo given: x*1.5 = 1500 rp. 3rd bpo given: (x*1.5)*1.5 = 2250 rp. etc etc.
The multiplier would need tweaking. The initial amount of RP same.
This would (can) partially fix both the crazy isk-making bpo's - AND the sucky ones.
Each researcher would have to carefully examine the expected return of any offer - accept if he feels the pay is good enough - and refuse if not.
Some bpo's would probably have been limited to 7-10, while others like cap rechargers would have a lot more with this system.
Yggdrassil |
Orrin Danestarr
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Posted - 2006.11.13 20:04:00 -
[239]
Currently they dont take 6 months to attempt but i get the meaning of what you say.
High end inventions take a very long time to attempt.... HAC's, Command ships, Recons... These are invariably going to take time. 3+months time to make an 'attempt'. What we don't know is the % chance or how many runs or how inefficent these will turn out to be. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME |
Artmedis Valben
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Posted - 2006.11.15 12:22:00 -
[240]
Factional Warfare is coming the two Axis of political power are Emerging.
Effect on invention: Gallente will have to turn to their Minmatar Comrades for Mechanical Engineering and Amarr will have to turn to Caldari. Since that is where your factional standing has had derived effect. Gallente Players will have an opportunity to hire a host of Mechanical Engineering Agents from Boundless Creation and Core Complexion. Amarr Player will have the opportunity to turn to Kaalakiota for their Mech Engineering cores.
After Kali no one will loose all their accumulated RPs when upgrading to a better agent or looking for agents in a new field. You simply buy Datacores for all the RPs you have before cancelling the agent.
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Laendra
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Posted - 2006.11.15 14:01:00 -
[241]
I'm really hoping that invention fixes what is wrong with the T2 market (and beyond), but it won't. You will still have the bulk of the T2 money going to the holders of the T2 BPOs, because they will continue to have a monopoly on unlimited blueprints.
You want to make an invention path that works, allow us to follow a research path that allows us to convert a T1 BPO to a T2 BPO. Give us a real science profession. I've said it numerous times in the past, and it is still needed today. This would be even better than seeding the market with T2 BPOs (3 to 6 months after released), which, honestly, is the only other solution.
You could do completely away with that farce of a lottery. It would have the effect of driving up demand for T2 components, which would increase their price, which would draw more people out of empire into <0.3 space, which would cause more conflict, which would result in use of more T2 which would increase the demand for T2 components, etc.
T2 blueprint research would be driven by both need and profit. Once the profit of an item is seen as high enough, more will be researched...once it drops to an acceptable level, no more will be produced, except as needed. You'd see a significant increase in the number of T2 BPOs in 0.0 space, which would help populate that market economy, creating a need to bring advanced industrial based people out to 0.0 to run the manufacturing of these items. It would cause a significant demand for outposts (factory and research) that would probably far outshadow refinery outposts, driving up the infrastructure of the various regions. Once the Admin outposts get the appropriate lovin' they need to make them useful, those would be in demand as well, for more than just office space.
The only downside to doing this, is that the T2 BPO monopoly owners, who would want to see invention fail, in any form, would lose their strangle-hold on the economy, and wouldn't have an unlimited license to produce limitless ISK. As it is now, they produce the most ISK, allowing them to buy up the T2 BPOs, which allows them to produce even more ISK, etc. It has ballooned out of control, and you, CCP, need to put the brakes on it, before we start leaving in droves. ------------------- |
Stephar
The High Priest
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Posted - 2006.11.16 03:19:00 -
[242]
Why can't we invent tech 2 drones??
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Nemtar Nataal
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Posted - 2006.11.16 08:30:00 -
[243]
well i havenÆt read threw the entire discussion but this is what i have understood from the discussion so fare... The idea of the invention system is cool...like the reverse engineering we never got...just the other way around
However the new system favour old players what ever way you look at it, which to me looks unfortunate as it was suppose to even the playing field between the few lucky once (BPO holders) and the consumers... Facto of the mater is..
If you are an old player in EVE you have accumulated a large amount of RP because this is time line based just like your SP. This means that if its easy to invent your way to a t2 bpc you will have a easier time doing so if you have spend the majority of your time in 00 accumulating RP while never received a actual bpo.
Either way the over all system will thus still favour people who accumulate RP due to the time line metrology of handing them out (maybe an interesting note is that LP are not handed out over time...why is this when you get RP for free why shouldnÆt you get LP for free). Well back to basics the system is still going to favour old players who accumulate RP over time and never use them, because well when the rest of the researchers start spending there RP to get into the T2 game....the people in 00 who cant get to there agents every day to buy the different modules needed for invention and the people who already have a T2 bpo will thus only have a even better chance for getting a bpo then before.
Conclusion the system is basically flawed....and i think that the reason for this is partially that research for the most part is time line based. Another flaw in the system are that when you "win" a BPO, you are essentially getting the key to access a large part of the market which other people are only partially able to access. Lets think about this for a second....for instance Lea Dai give you a BPO why? Well normally you would think that a firm would give you such a precious my precious thing so that you could represent them on the market...and try and promote THERE product...but insted you have full control with the bpo....no restraints or anything...so essentially you are able to put a bpo in your hanger and leave it there as you see fit.... Well the way bpo's work when they are handed out are more like a trade franchise....you get access to the market...but there should be some minimal demands tied to this...
--- Demands like --- You are required to represent us on the market with a minimum of x units of this product a year. You are required to back to caldari state (Lea Dai) in there struggle for world domination by selling a minimum of your products in our space or to our pilotes/friends (more RP based) You are required to pay an annual sum of xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx isk for your trade franchise. If you break any of this rules we will revoke your trade franchise bla bla bla bla...and so one....
Something this would keep bpo's in continuous circulation in the game...for instance if you leave EVE and just leave a pile of T2 bpo's in your hanger this will be reseeded to other players.
...
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Nemtar Nataal
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Posted - 2006.11.16 08:31:00 -
[244]
...
This will also cause the different holders to try and combat each other in the different regions of space sort of and add on to the faction warfare thing.
Another thought on this would be that people who didnÆt run R&D missions at all wouldnÆt be able to get anything but bpc's...you would have to do something that would be considered active research to get into the T2 game. I know this would basically favour empire pilots a little to much...but hear me out here....active research could be considered some survey you just made in space...and to even the playing field the most complex surveys could only be done in 00. Basically a 00 player would have to spend less time on the actual research then a empire pilote.
....Facto of the mater is that you will keep favouring the old players as long as t2 is basically a time based lotteryà..i meanàif start whining enough on the forums can we have time based LP aswell because then its only a question of time before I get my RattleSnakeà Hope you can see my point thereà.
Why should RP be time based when its even more important to the game then the mission offers.
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vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.16 09:26:00 -
[245]
Originally by: ArchenTheGreat
Originally by: Naal Morno
Significant investments by groups of clever people were made into these BPOs, why would only the value of these BPOs get annhilated by seeding? Doesn't sound balanced at all.
"Significant investments" - makes me laugh. All it takes is to run RD agent for a week or so few years ago. With EVE population at a third of today and very few RD players at those times it wasn't big investment. Since than no new BPOs were released.
There is no way one can force BPO owner to give BPO. You can produce tech2 stuff in total safety in Empire. No risk, no investment - huge rewards.
I say CCP should scrap all this invention crap and release every tech2 BPO on market. Alternatively release them through lottery but every BPO should be given each week AND if you want take part in lottery you risk you RD points (not all but you state how much) so if you don't get BPO your RD points are lost.
Dude get real. Basically you're saying that every component needed to construct a T2 item magically appears in hangar and the finished products just turn into isk when you click the "deliver" button. Managing T2 production is a lot of work. Then you have to sell which also takes time.
Obviously you have never tried managing a production of a few T2 BPOs...
I agree. Some T2 items are waaay overpriced. CCP is trying to think out a way to bring those prices down without destroying the markets. Changes are coming but, as all major changes should happen they will happen slowly but surely. Evolution instead of Revolution.
WTG CCP.
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vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.16 09:40:00 -
[246]
There also seems to be a vast misconception about T2 monopolies. That is simply not true. The only monopoly i know of is the T2 Cap recharger cartel and the Prototype Cloaks which are almost all in the hands of Naal Morno. Not anymore though because they all got upgraded into Improved cloaks now.
Simple fact is that demand is higher than a supply can be. This drives the prices up. I play in that sector and i know what im talking about. Sellers of T2 items compete with each other. Prices are regulated by markets alone. There have been attempts to regulate prices ( initiated by others ) but all failed miserably. People just don't want to sell at a fixed price. T2 Cap recharger cartel is an exemption to the rule.
Now CCP is working on ways on how to make more T2 items available on market. There are a LOT of people that have Gallente starship agents. If all these people were able to produce only 3 more Deimoses and 3 more Ishtars per day this will mean a 43% increase in production. All the people who like to compare EVE to RL economies... What would happen if suddenly the supply of Oil would jump by 43% ? Instead of 28 million barrels OPEC would pump 50 million barrels. What would that do to the price of Oil? Similar thing will happen to T2 items. As Oveur said it on FanFest: "Inventors will go where the money is." Atm that's HACs and Cap rechargers.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.16 09:53:00 -
[247]
Originally by: vipeer As Oveur said it on FanFest: "Inventors will go where the money is." Atm that's HACs and Cap rechargers.
I would rather say where the money WAS, at least with cap recharger IIs. I think a lot of people will start doing invention on Cap recharger IIs which is cheap when it comes to data cores, only need 2+2 cores. Prices will probably continue to be high for a while but as soon as more and more people are putting cap recharger IIs on the market prices will drop and it might no longer be that profitable.
But that is just how it should work, market forces working.
But of course a lot depends on how many runs you will get on bpcs etc.
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.16 23:44:00 -
[248]
Originally by: vipeer Not anymore though because they all got upgraded into Improved cloaks now.
You know something I don't know? _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project
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Posted - 2006.11.16 23:47:00 -
[249]
Well I'm stumped..
Not only is the Myrmidon the crappiest new ship atm (pre-release) with less slots than the other BC and a drone bay that is utterly laughable.
But as it seems some key items will not be inventable: - Drones. Yes I am a drone user and I suppose ccp wants me to quit or something since drones are getting shafted on a yearly basis. And now we won't be able to invent the lil sweeties. I expect med t2 drones to all be priced at 2.5M isk very soon since the monopoly is now even better with another so-called drone ship and no invention to worry about.. - Ammo. The only reason I care is because invention should be viable for all tech I items with tech II counterparts in game. - Barges. Mining is pretty important in this game for the entire market. No invention of tech 2 barges will def not help.
The combination of datacores means it will be quite hard to solo invention. Yeah the bigger should be happy.
When I started (quite a few years ago) I already loved the idea of science. Especially reverse engineering. Reverse engineering would solve many of the afore mentioned tech II market probs. And it kinda happens in RL too.. Once a patent (if you wanna be legal) has been ended peopel are free to copy the design. I was hoping to be able to get variable run, ME, PE bpc from reverse engineering. But they decided on invention. And made it so utterly complex and ill-conceived that a lot of R&D people will just wait for the promissed extra tech II bpo's in the lottery.
Right now it seems like invention is only useful for stuff that doesn't have a tech II bpo. That means Rigs. And later it will be used for tech III. That's it people.
Kali certainly turned out a revelation: This is pathetic, I might as well try and sell this drone and science char and just buy a caldari mission/pvp char.
- All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me - Pure drone user... give us a mini carrier and faction Typhoon and Dominix please |
Denrace
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2006.11.17 02:21:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Orrin Danestarr Currently they dont take 6 months to attempt but i get the meaning of what you say.
High end inventions take a very long time to attempt.... HAC's, Command ships, Recons... These are invariably going to take time. 3+months time to make an 'attempt'. What we don't know is the % chance or how many runs or how inefficent these will turn out to be.
3 months?
Surely this is a joke.
Hello CCP - the majority of EVE players dont play this game for 23 hours a day.
We have JOBS.
We have LIVES.
We have FAMILY.
I havent the time to grind missions/farm NPCs all day to buy that new OMGWTFOVERPRICED T2 ship - just to compete in a pvp.
But no, thats fine. I can balance all that and still sit on my ass for 3 FREAKING MONTHS to get a slight chance at getting a dodgy BPC of a T2 ship, while the lucky lucky people who got T2 BPOs make billions and billions.
Oh and ONE YEARS DEVELOPMENT TIME!!!
Cheers.
Den *Slightly Annoyed Customer, yet still retains hope CCP can "salvage" Kali*
(Pun shamelessly intended)
________________________________________
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:04:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Lobo Noturno I did some research today in Sisi, and I noticed that there is NO agent in gallente confederation that works in mechanical engineering... How are the Gallente supposed to get mechanical datacores, required for ALL starship inventions???? I found such agents in Minmatar, Caldari and Ammarian corporations. I understand this might not be a hot gallente research topic, but we need at least one of those, maybe 4-5 spread on the R&D gallente corps...
Which Ammar and Caldari corps had mechanical eng research (and lvl and quality)? I know that Kalaakiota have some mech eng agents but they are of pretty bad quality (lvl 4 q -16 or something). Have not found any mech eng agents in my Amarr corp, Carthum. Seems like Minmatar have all the good mech eng agents.
I think that supply of mechanical engineering data cores will become a problem. Not only all starship invention require them but also several other research areas.
Adding a few mechanical engineering (high level/quality) agents might be a good idea.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:10:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Denrace 3 months?
Surely this is a joke.
Hello CCP - the majority of EVE players dont play this game for 23 hours a day.
We have JOBS.
We have LIVES.
We have FAMILY.
3 months with one agent and probably assuming that all data cores will cost 1500 RP each. Which might get adjusted. Also you can have more than one agent, getting 5 agents does nto take that long to train for.
But you don't need to do any work to get the RPs, well at least after you have got the agents. You will of course need to do a lot of mission to get the good lvl 4 agents but after that you will get your daily RPs even when doing nothing else. If you want you can do research agent mission (1 each 24 hours) to get double RP that day, but that is optional.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:12:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Keitaro Baka
But as it seems some key items will not be inventable: - Drones. Yes I am a drone user and I suppose ccp wants me to quit or something since drones are getting shafted on a yearly basis. And now we won't be able to invent the lil sweeties. I expect med t2 drones to all be priced at 2.5M isk very soon since the monopoly is now even better with another so-called drone ship and no invention to worry about.. - Ammo. The only reason I care is because invention should be viable for all tech I items with tech II counterparts in game. - Barges. Mining is pretty important in this game for the entire market. No invention of tech 2 barges will def not help.
I agree, I dont understand why these items are not possible to do invention for. I hope devs can explain why (or even better I hope they will fix this).
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vipeer
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.17 10:51:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Naal Morno
Originally by: vipeer Not anymore though because they all got upgraded into Improved cloaks now.
You know something I don't know?
Im sorry. I heard all rare T1 BPOs will get an upgrade to T2 and all rare basic BPOs will get an upgrade to T1. Actually I can already buy T2 cargo expanders from escrow. The T1 cargo expander got upgraded to T2 a week ago. even the Devs confirmed that.
You're saying your Prototype cloak BPOs are still prototype and not improved or cov ops? Looks like you got shafted big time :( Or will CCP upgarde your BPOs when Kali hits us?
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Inairin
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Posted - 2006.11.17 13:21:00 -
[255]
someone's going to die if they leave cloaks un-inventable.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.17 13:44:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Inairin someone's going to die if they leave cloaks un-inventable.
They (improved, covert op) are possible to invent but you need a prototype cloak to make the invention and that is not easy to get as logn as the BPO is not released on market. Which I think they will.
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.17 13:54:00 -
[257]
Want a BIG joke? Bug report:
I have started R&D with 4 agents (in Singularity): For all of them research stopped before completing a day of research, when the mail requesting a mission was sent. Agent name, date of the first mission mail sent - Plandolis Aeleem 06-11-11; Masalle Ambrette 06-11-09, - Gratwonsdinnur Kjadeland 06-11-09; Husk Alfur 06-11-14.
If this is a feature and not a bug, 100 RP for datacore is high.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.17 13:58:00 -
[258]
Is that why I didn't get more RP on Singularity, had less than one day of RP.
I really hope that is a bug.
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Orrin Danestarr
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Posted - 2006.11.17 14:40:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Bermag
Originally by: Denrace 3 months?
Surely this is a joke.
Hello CCP - the majority of EVE players dont play this game for 23 hours a day.
We have JOBS.
We have LIVES.
We have FAMILY.
3 months with one agent and probably assuming that all data cores will cost 1500 RP each. Which might get adjusted. Also you can have more than one agent, getting 5 agents does nto take that long to train for.
But you don't need to do any work to get the RPs, well at least after you have got the agents. You will of course need to do a lot of mission to get the good lvl 4 agents but after that you will get your daily RPs even when doing nothing else. If you want you can do research agent mission (1 each 24 hours) to get double RP that day, but that is optional.
Indeed, this does factor in the fact that Datacores will cost 1500 rp's. And its also for the hardest (that i have seen) invention, a commandship. The mechanical engineering cores are going to be few and far between. Even if you had nothing but Mechanical engineering R&D agents, it would take a month to get the 16 datacores required. Then you woul need to switch over and get the 16 other datacores from your racial engineering which wouldnt take that long, since htey are X3 multipliers for rp. Factor in that you would then need an unknown amount of time to attempt an invention... you get more like 2 months... but with maxed skills only.
I beleive that invention is a step in the right direction. We just need to play around with it for a few months to see if it needs to be modified. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME |
Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.17 15:32:00 -
[260]
people will have to group together to invent things...
can't have that, this is a MMOG ffs. Rabble Rabble Rabble ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.11.17 16:56:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne Want a BIG joke? Bug report:
I have started R&D with 4 agents (in Singularity): For all of them research stopped before completing a day of research, when the mail requesting a mission was sent. Agent name, date of the first mission mail sent - Plandolis Aeleem 06-11-11; Masalle Ambrette 06-11-09, - Gratwonsdinnur Kjadeland 06-11-09; Husk Alfur 06-11-14.
If this is a feature and not a bug, 100 RP for datacore is high.
Apparently they have restarted. So or it was the fastest reply to a bug report or they work only when the player is on line. Really hope for the first option, or we will never test invention.
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Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2006.11.17 22:57:00 -
[262]
Originally by: Omber Zombie people will have to group together to invent things...
can't have that, this is a MMOG ffs. Rabble Rabble Rabble
Comes from a guy who has admitted he "has access" to 90 T2 BPOs He totally has no vested interest in Invention being very involved (to the point of being useless). Rabble rabble indeed.
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Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2006.11.17 23:02:00 -
[263]
Originally by: vipeer
Originally by: ArchenTheGreat
Originally by: Naal Morno
Significant investments by groups of clever people were made into these BPOs, why would only the value of these BPOs get annhilated by seeding? Doesn't sound balanced at all.
"Significant investments" - makes me laugh. All it takes is to run RD agent for a week or so few years ago. With EVE population at a third of today and very few RD players at those times it wasn't big investment. Since than no new BPOs were released.
There is no way one can force BPO owner to give BPO. You can produce tech2 stuff in total safety in Empire. No risk, no investment - huge rewards.
I say CCP should scrap all this invention crap and release every tech2 BPO on market. Alternatively release them through lottery but every BPO should be given each week AND if you want take part in lottery you risk you RD points (not all but you state how much) so if you don't get BPO your RD points are lost.
Dude get real. Basically you're saying that every component needed to construct a T2 item magically appears in hangar and the finished products just turn into isk when you click the "deliver" button. Managing T2 production is a lot of work. Then you have to sell which also takes time.
Obviously you have never tried managing a production of a few T2 BPOs...
I agree. Some T2 items are waaay overpriced. CCP is trying to think out a way to bring those prices down without destroying the markets. Changes are coming but, as all major changes should happen they will happen slowly but surely. Evolution instead of Revolution.
WTG CCP.
A lot of work and a lot of risk are two different things. Point is, with T2 manufacturing you can make loads of ISK without ever poking your nose in low sec. And this is not right. If we go the "a lot of work" line... Mining Veldspar has to be boosted. It also involves a lot of work. I can get income comparable to T2 manufacturing from 0.0 ratting, for example, but that involves a lot of risk and teamwork, and I cannot do it while I am away from the computer. Doing some trade runs and plugging BPOs in a factory slot might be tedious, but it just does not compare to ratting, missioning, or mining in 0.0.
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Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.18 02:56:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Omber Zombie people will have to group together to invent things...
can't have that, this is a MMOG ffs. Rabble Rabble Rabble
Comes from a guy who has admitted he "has access" to 90 T2 BPOs He totally has no vested interest in Invention being very involved (to the point of being useless). Rabble rabble indeed.
If you honestly think that you really have no idea who I am. ----------------------
[FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style |
Cudaya Ebsldes
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Posted - 2006.11.18 20:56:00 -
[265]
An open post, and I post with trepidation:
A few pages back (page 6 I believe) Oveur said "We can therefore tune this....so it reaches our goals, to be an alternative way of getting in to upcomig(sic) Tech levels."
If nothing is lost in translation, I then assume "upcomingö could mean anything that is not now currently available, but ôupcoming tech levelsö would indicate only tech 3 (a new level) or level in the sense of Revelations being a new level?)
But the phrase ôalternative way of getting intoö does not specify whether or not this is a ôco-equalö ôway of getting into,ö nor does he use the phrase ôgetting into manufacturing.ö
Question 1: Therefore I assume this does not, as presently envisioned, have an effect on tech 2?
Question 2: Would this ever lead to an ôequalö and ôalternateö method of ômanufactureö which would compete with tech 3 (or 2) items under the present BPO system? [Is this a palliative mean to appease criticism but not affect the economies of the present EVE?]
Question 3: Directly, will this be an adjunct to the present BPO system (tech 2/3) which will have a substantial impact on the availability of items and therefore the economies of EVE? [Kind of like the effect that Henry Ford had on the availability of cars by inventing a cheap affordable car that was not luxurious but basic and highly functional.)]
Question 4: Are any of the above yet decided?
Thank you.
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.19 05:19:00 -
[266]
Originally by: vipeer
Originally by: Naal Morno
Originally by: vipeer Not anymore though because they all got upgraded into Improved cloaks now.
You know something I don't know?
Im sorry. I heard all rare T1 BPOs will get an upgrade to T2 and all rare basic BPOs will get an upgrade to T1. Actually I can already buy T2 cargo expanders from escrow. The T1 cargo expander got upgraded to T2 a week ago. even the Devs confirmed that.
You're saying your Prototype cloak BPOs are still prototype and not improved or cov ops? Looks like you got shafted big time :( Or will CCP upgarde your BPOs when Kali hits us?
Ah, ok. You are just making assumptions. _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Fenderson
Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.19 16:27:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
Originally by: Omber Zombie people will have to group together to invent things...
can't have that, this is a MMOG ffs. Rabble Rabble Rabble
Comes from a guy who has admitted he "has access" to 90 T2 BPOs He totally has no vested interest in Invention being very involved (to the point of being useless). Rabble rabble indeed.
The fact that it is so "involved" does not make it useless. T2 production is already extremely involved. I doubt there are many (if any) single characters in this game who run t2 production from moon mining all the way to the finished product all by themselves.
Invention will be on a similar vein. It will take multiple characters, IE a corporation or alliance to do invention from the ground up.
For those of use who dont want to do every single part of it ourselves, we have the market.
Just like some people right now do moon mining or build t2 components and sell them on the market, you will see researchers who simply harvest datacores and sell them on the market for isk, and dont want to be bothered with the rest of the invention process.
So as long as extra datacores are availiable on the market, it will still be possible for individuals to do whatever invention they want.
*real men structure tank* |
Cincia
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Posted - 2006.11.19 17:09:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Artmedis Valben
Looking at inventing ships then: Command ship = 32 Datacores = 100+ days with one agent or 25+ days with 4. So 60-80% chance at a several run Command ship BPC every month. HAC = 16 datacores = so one several run HAC per 2 agents per month. Artmedis Valben
It would be justified that ships base value would be reflects to needed datacore amount. HAC base price being around 18M and command ships's 58M, command ships should cost 3 x more datacores.
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Khajit Smitty
Minmatar MisFunk Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.20 13:13:00 -
[269]
Speculation, assumptions, more speculation and even more assumptions....
im totally fascinated how people can attempt to discuss something to such levels based on very vague and abstract information provided.
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2006.11.20 18:46:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Khajit Smitty Speculation, assumptions, more speculation and even more assumptions....
im totally fascinated how people can attempt to discuss something to such levels based on very vague and abstract information provided.
You sound like a college student. Come to the real world where we don't have time/luxury to find out ALL the facts before we make decisions. Where, in fact, your value as an engineer is based on your ability to make decisions without the "required" information. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
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PhamNuwen
Caldari Bungee Jumper
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Posted - 2006.11.20 18:52:00 -
[271]
Edited by: PhamNuwen on 20/11/2006 19:06:37 I made some tests to invention: 1) strange material requirements (not balaced up to now?) Ferox 3run-BPC (ME20/PE5): 2 types of 16 datcores MOA 5run-BPC (ME40/PE5): 2 types of 8 datacores Osprey 5run-BPC (ME20/PE0): 2 types of 8 datacores Kestrel 30run (ME10/PE0): 2 types of 1 datacore + 1 Esoteric Ship data interface + Skill: Caldari encryption Lvl1 (skill missing! - bad for testing) + Skill: Mechanical engineering Lvl1 (too low!) + Skill: Cald Starship engineering engineering Lvl1 (too low!) Time 1d 1h
2) Strange: Bestower/Badger Mark II: "2006.11.20 18:28:21 Info This job cannot result in an output blueprint. The reason might be that the metalevel of your input blueprint is too high or that there are no items in the same metagroup with a higher metalevel." No T2-Bestower/T2-Badger II available? Or ME too high? Or too much number of runs?
Please add the missing items to market (for testing): - datacores - skills - Esoteric Ship data interface
Please re-work the interfaces (store last position/size; more sophistcated default values; store last selection in combo boxes)
Thx
Update: Power Diagnostic Unit: 2 types of 2 datacores 1 Occult data interface + Skill: Amarr encryption Methods Lvl1 (ups, not in market?) + Skill: Quantum Physics Lvl1 + Skill: High Energy Physics Lvl1
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Gort
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2006.11.20 21:32:00 -
[272]
I don't mind complicated, within reason, but the obscurantism in Eve is running rampant atm.
Low-tech sig: "When in doubt, empty the magazine." |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2006.11.21 06:29:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Gort I don't mind complicated, within reason, but the obscurantism in Eve is running rampant atm.
QFT
When depth of options can not be made, use the overly complex to expand the options beyond manageability.
However I think CCP doesn't have much choice in the matter. We are, after all, a very adaptive bunch that pushes CCP further than they plan on. Each and every time.
I forget who was complaining about the fact that invention favors the veterans of the game but I'd like to point out that as a vet with roughly 100K rp through various agents I don't feel like I'm all that much ahead of you.
Once my bonus for paying $15 USD per month, for coming up on 4 years, is gone it is gone. After that, anyone that grinds up some missions can access the same agents I have and do the same research I am doing. I'm just getting something for my investment of time and energy. My bonus will likely be misspent on the early days of invention while it is still being adjusted, tweaked, and somehow along the way nerfed not in my favor.
That is the experience of being a veteran in Eve. Knowing that things are what they are and will likely change in ways that you simply just don't like or weren't prepared to swallow. And you simply keep on through out it all.
Only one cure for not being a veteran. Whining about it is not on the list.
Still screwing the dictionary, baby. One long word at a time!
Arknox > shar with bad hair day >>> solution = suicide and spawn fresh clone :D |
Khajit Smitty
Minmatar MisFunk Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.21 08:47:00 -
[274]
Edited by: Khajit Smitty on 21/11/2006 08:48:20
Originally by: Imhotep Khem
You sound like a college student. Come to the real world where we don't have time/luxury to find out ALL the facts before we make decisions. Where, in fact, your value as an engineer is based on your ability to make decisions without the "required" information.
My friend i am in the real world and im far from a "college student" - making decisions based on virtually no information is an assumption and "Assumptions are the mother off all ****ups", engineers (i presume you are one) make educated decisions based on limited yet ACCURATE information and yes sometimes they apply existing knowledge from existing solutions to guess their way through it. Its the same as myself (software developer) we often have to make educated decisions based on limited information but that information generally has some level of detail or practical real life example to study.
Currently invention is not testable, there are some abstract dev blogs , there is limited information on how it will work (Vague information) yet people are stating things like certain T2 modules wont be invented based on something they dont understand yet, i mean common, honestly, wait until its out..
Educated discussions regarding what would be kewl, woulnt be kewl, what could happen, what people are doing to prepare for it are great and i say keep them coming.
Anyways just ignore me, im a 19 year old drug induced caffenine addicted pimple faced college student.
Oh and i think invention is awesome, even if it sounds really complicated.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.22 06:58:00 -
[275]
Kajit, you are right, the thru is that witj or post we are trying to get some reply from the developers, who should have most of the answers.
Beyond that I am deeply concerned. I am following the scanning discussion too for the information on how finding the complex needed for the data interfaces, skills, and added datacores. So far the number of complex discovered is very low, with a signal strengt so low to bd detected by 1 probe in a hundred, obviously if you are in the right system. If that stay true datainterface and skillbook prices will be in the billions. I am not happy so far.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.22 17:27:00 -
[276]
I think invention is a great idea, for one simple reason. Unlike the current T2 BPO market, it's tunable after release.
You can't _really_ recall people's T2 BPOs that they bought for 185bajillion isks.
However with invention you can adjust 'success rates' such that the desired results are achieved, once the initial emergent behaviour settles down.
For those that are complaining how many cores it takes, and how long it takes to earn one, well, yes. I fully expect that producing HACs _shouldn't_ be a solo enterprise.
OK, so if it take a week to 'earn' a core (half that if you run missions) welll ... so what? There's still probably about 50,000 people who are also earning one (or more) core per week, and of those some will just sell them - obviously supply and demand will determine what ratio try to sell vs. try to invent with them, but ... this is good isn't it? I'll quite happily train up Research Project management and farm datacores, either to hand off to my corpmates, alliance or sell on the open market.
In many ways, the barriers to entry are what promotes this - if you have invested in the skills, decryptors and stuff to invent stuff, then the cores are going to be worth more to you than J random newbie who feels like trying to get lucking on a cerberus BPC.
My only real concern is whether more BPOs will be introduced via the lottery once invention goes live - at which point it'll be a trade off where the people who actually _want_ to be researchers end up losing out on their relative chances to people who just sit on their RP stockpile.
That said, if there _are_ to be new T2 BPOs released, IMO the best way to do that is add a (very small) percentage change of a real breakthrough on the research project until they're handed out. Thus the 'real' researchers end up getting a payoff for their efforts.
Also, for all those who are providing a huge amount of froth about how certain invention stuff will only be in 0.0, where do you think most of the megacyte and probably zydrine on the Jita market comes from? OK, so you may not have access to 0.0.
I can guarantee you though, if you're prepared to put up money in proportion to value and effort, there _will_ be people selling the '0.0 only' stuff.
Looks good to me, although I would like to be able to play with it on SiSi. - please add the invention stuff to the market.
It'd also be rather useful to have relative value of the invention options indicated. I don't think the percentage chance of inventing should be disclosed - this does allow for on the fly modification due to percieved imbalance.
However, some indication of relative weight of each of the ingredients would be useful e.g. how important is it to have the decryptor, metamodule, BPC runs/ME/PE, relevant skill.
Some guideline on if you do all the stuff and feed it a top end named module, your chances to invent are X times better than if you just invent without, that would be really lovely.
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Brolly
Caldari The Department of Justice
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Posted - 2006.11.23 22:46:00 -
[277]
Anyone found the locations of datacores yet or is this going to be untested by the mass.
/me looks at clock and points
5 days left to revelations and no testing
If I had ú1 for every intelligent comment posted in general discussion, I'd be hideously in debt |
Kunming
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.23 23:06:00 -
[278]
Looking at the whole invention system.. I only wish they never brought out T2 BPOs. Unfortunately despite the best effords of the devs, they are haunted by their shortsightedness!
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Swamp Ziro
EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.11.24 00:35:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Imhotep Khem
Originally by: Khajit Smitty Speculation, assumptions, more speculation and even more assumptions....
im totally fascinated how people can attempt to discuss something to such levels based on very vague and abstract information provided.
You sound like a college student. Come to the real world where we don't have time/luxury to find out ALL the facts before we make decisions. Where, in fact, your value as an engineer is based on your ability to make decisions without the "required" information.
Haha awesome =) And I agree !
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2006.11.24 17:57:00 -
[280]
Edited by: Amy Wang on 24/11/2006 17:57:52 1. Invention has a great potential to balance the t2 market.
2. Invention will be horribly broken and unbalanced when it goes live because a beta test cant yield enough information for the needed tuning while the life version can can be tuned and fixed until it really works as James pointed out.
What Invention should mean:
- R&D is a viable profession that yields money over time not based on luck alone like the lottery
- dropping T2 prices to a lower level until they stabilise again due to a simple mechanic:
1. People invest RP in the products with the highest profit margin (e.g. t2 ships, some of the t2 weapons etc). 2. Competition let the prices drop. 3. Dropping prices increase demand since more people are willing/able to afford those t2 products, prices stabilise. 4. Dropping prices make it less profitable to invent certain products, prices stabilise. 5. Rising prices make it more attractive to invent certain things -> 1.
I dont think the prices will drop too much but I can imagine them going down to the niveau they had a couple months ago and then stay there.
The Key is that the effort/RP amount put in must be worth it without making it the ultimate cash cow.
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ArchenTheGreat
Caldari Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2006.11.24 18:55:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Amy Wang
What Invention should mean:
- R&D is a viable profession that yields money over time not based on luck alone like the lottery
- dropping T2 prices to a lower level until they stabilise again due to a simple mechanic:
- making R&D profession with "progress". Character with low skills and only one level 1 R&D agent should still be able to invent. Of course not everything and not as efficiently as highly skilled one. Unfortunately now R&D path is only viable if you grind multiple lvl4 R&D agents for several months.
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Brolly
Caldari The Department of Justice
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Posted - 2006.11.24 18:59:00 -
[282]
The amount of datacores given out by an agent seems to have been restricted, I could only get 4 off my agent and I have 500K rp with. Looks like deepspace complexes will be the main source of datacores.
As it had been stated before, most of the new complexes found will be in low sec space. I can't wait for the next 'nerf empire' thread in general discussion, lol.
If I had ú1 for every intelligent comment posted in general discussion, I'd be hideously in debt |
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