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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 18:16:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Andargor theWise
Is signal strength flat per probe type, or is it modified by skills?
Modified by skills, target sensor strength, signature radius and range. We already have the formula for all the rest, just the range part that was missing. Take a look earlier in this t thread.
The values I posted above has been modified to only take range range into account.
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Donna Darko
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Posted - 2006.11.08 21:42:00 -
[92]
With the patch in use today (2.14.26961) and Covert Ops 5, Astrometrics 5 and Survey 5, I launched an Observator and scanned for everything.
I found probes, shuttles, one tier 1 industrial, and nothing else. Also in space, there were battleships, frigates, a cruiser, and possibly other ships.
Is this because Observator has a 1 Gravimetric (and the rest) strength? Shouldn't it have something like 100? Or is this scan probe not affected?
I also used 1 Snoop probe to analyze - I'm a bit confused, do we need 3 as the Show Info still says, or 1? In any case, I found nothing at all with it, mainly because its life span is 4 minutes 30 seconds and it takes me (with above mentioned skills) 300 seconds (or 5 minutes) to scan. Stories. |
Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 22:27:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Hoshi on 08/11/2006 22:44:32 Edited by: Hoshi on 08/11/2006 22:39:29
Originally by: Helison
A quite good fit (but not perfect) for this would be 1-(x/1.3)^1.6, where x is actual range / max range. But I would need a few datapoints for above 40AU so I can check if the exponential function is behaving ok.
Hmm try this for a fit: 1-0.65x^1.5 Seems to fit nicely and is a very clean formula. 0.65 makes sure that x = 1 give 0.35 and 1.5 seem to give the correct slope.
That would make the final formula like this: Signal Strength = (Probe Strength * (1-(0.65 * Target Range / Max Range)^1.5) * Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength) / 100
Multiply Signal strength with 100 (or leave out "/ 100" from the above formula) to get % chance to find the target in each scan, more than 100% chance would mean it always succeed and also means 0km scan deviation.
For example scanning for a Scorpion sitting 25 au away using a Ferret probe (strength 2, max range 40) would give: 2 * (1-(0.65 * 25/40)^1.5) * 480/24 = 29.64% chance of success (so avg 3-4 scans before finding it).
If you have the new probe sensor strength skill at level 5 it would be 37.05% chance instead.
Now we just need to figure out scan deviation.
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Donna Darko
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Posted - 2006.11.08 23:18:00 -
[94]
Why is it necessary to only allow 1 scan probe to be fitted on the ship? On a covert ops you would only have one onlined at any moment, because of the CPU requirements. Stories. |
Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.08 23:32:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Donna Darko Why is it necessary to only allow 1 scan probe to be fittesd on the ship? On a covert ops you would only have one onlined at any moment, because of the CPU requirements.
It's worse than that, if you have 1 online and 1 offline and offline the first one you won't be able to online the second one as it now uses 220000 cpu.
I would guess on 2 reasons.
1. You can exploit it, have Scan probe launcher I online, launch a sensor specific probe, take it offline and online the recon launcher, scan. The scan will now only take 30-60 sec instead of 300-600 sec.
2. CCP don't want us to use the sensor specific proobes to search for ship in combat situations, they are so high sensor strength that they will always find the target and give 0m scan deviation. This makes them a bit overpowered.
While you still can use them for this now you need to make a sacrifice as you won't be able to get short scan time with the other probes.
Note that they have changed the probe launcher description include this: "Only one probe launcher can be fitted per ship"
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.09 00:22:00 -
[96]
Although "short" is still relative - yes, there's a ten minute base cycle, but with maxed skills you can run a racial probe in two and a half minutes, which will pretty much find everything bigger than a spent 1400mm round* within 64AU, give or take.
*May not be strictly true.
Also, from what I've read, deviation is based on signal strength but with a random multiplier, so it's not going to drop out exactly.
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:32:00 -
[97]
Currently known probing bugs.
Ferret Scan Probe I show as having 2 points strength but in reality have 2.5 points. Most likely a rounding error in the client. Bug reported.
All probe results shown on the system map point to the same place (which seems to be a random result) when you try to warp to them. The result list works fine just the map that is bugged. Bug reported.
The probe sphere as displayed on the system map is often positioned wrong after warping. This makes it hard to to place and use several probes at the same time. Not bug reported yet as I have a hard time to reproduce it accurately. If anyone wants to try to reproduce it and bug report it be my guest.
A few strange behaviors of the scanning gui but they seem to be mostly lag related and not real bugs. Not bug reported.
Due to the probe sphere bug and the fact that BMs stop working once you relog I have not done any real testing with several probes. The one test I did run returned all results that was in any of the bubble not just the intersection, those in the intersection just had much higher signal strength (0.94 instead of 0.45).
It also seemed to have a slight effect on stuff on results only inside 1 bubble. Results that got 1.0 strength with just 1 bubble got only 0.99 when 2 where used.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.09 11:57:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 09/11/2006 12:02:29 Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 09/11/2006 12:02:13
Originally by: Hoshi The one test I did run returned all results that was in any of the bubble not just the intersection, those in the intersection just had much higher signal strength (0.94 instead of 0.45).
I think this is intended functionality.]
Also, the bubble-movement thing just seems to be part of the general problem with the system map, namely that non-celestial graphics - jump lines, bubbles, part of the sun graphic etc - all move along with the "you are here" arrow when you warp. This does make the rendered bubbles pretty but useless, and I assume this'll be fixed by launch because it's a pretty glaring error as it stands.
{edit} The problem with multi-probe drops is finding cases where they're actually viable, particularly with the longer-range probes. A lot depends on the exact positioning of celestials, particularly if you want to avoid spending all day making safes to probe from. Need to find/look at the math for two overlapping weaker probes vs one strong etc, I guess...
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Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.09 13:45:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Hoshi
The probe sphere as displayed on the system map is often positioned wrong after warping. This makes it hard to to place and use several probes at the same time. Not bug reported yet as I have a hard time to reproduce it accurately. If anyone wants to try to reproduce it and bug report it be my guest.
I reported it once with pictures but its hard to describe what exactly happens.
Another Bug I didnt report yet: If I close the scanner window before a scan is finished and open it again I only see the "group/scanprobe" selection screen but cant do anything there.
On another note: Did anyone here find one of the new "explorable content" space signature things? No matter what kind of exploration probe I use I always end up with empty hands...
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.09 13:53:00 -
[100]
As above the bubble rendering issue seems to be just that they remain stationary in relation to the "you are here" sign when you warp. It seems that the map treats all non-celestials this way, which is a problem. Guess it would be useful if it does the same with gangmates shown in space. Interestingly though scan results do stay properly stationary. And yes, the exploration sites are in and work fine, I've found a couple of plexes, an archaeological site, a couple of drone sites and a gas cloud so far. You just gotta figure out where to look and then have some patience...
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Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.09 15:42:00 -
[101]
Cool thanks
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Rob Stark
Serenity and Unicum Hungarian Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.09 16:37:00 -
[102]
Wonder if anyone else experiencing the same:
when trying to warp to a scan result by right clikcing on the spots in the system map, my ship warps to another result.
The system map isn't perfect yet :)
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Donna Darko
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Posted - 2006.11.09 21:34:00 -
[103]
Why is it that the scan probes that we had before have 0.4 m3 volume, while the race specific probes have 5 m3? This means I need to take a very limited number of race specific probes, making the covert ops (the ship best suited for this type of job) very impractical as a scavenger.
I understand they have different volumes to make it impossible to fit the race specific probes in the recon launcher, but wouldn't it make more sense to have the race specific probes mesure 0.5 m3 and the recon probe launcher have a capacity of 0.4 m3, meaning only 1 probe fitted at one time? I think it takes us more than 10 seconds to warp from one place to another, especially when counting we can't deploy one probe in another's scan area - which in turn means by the time we get to the place we want to drop the new probe, the reload is finished.
I seriously despise the idea an INDUSTRIAL ship is needed to scan large areas of space only because they have a huge cargo space. Stories. |
Irrilian
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2006.11.10 20:22:00 -
[104]
Feh, I know that some one has probably put a lot of time into devising, coding and testing the new system, to resolve a lot of the bugs and inconstancies of the way things worked previously. Thus I dont want to sound ungrateful, but apart from a few fixes like 3d probes and cloaked ship probing, I prefer how things work on TQ.
The main attraction of scan probing for me was that while there was certainly not insignificant character skills required, your success was actually dependent on player skill, a combination of spatial awareness, math and hunting. It was the puzzle, the challenge of hunting someone down that made the entire process interesting, something that seems to be lacking with the new system.
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Dahin
Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.10 23:50:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Irrilian Feh, I know that some one has probably put a lot of time into devising, coding and testing the new system, to resolve a lot of the bugs and inconstancies of the way things worked previously. Thus I dont want to sound ungrateful, but apart from a few fixes like 3d probes and cloaked ship probing, I prefer how things work on TQ.
The main attraction of scan probing for me was that while there was certainly not insignificant character skills required, your success was actually dependent on player skill, a combination of spatial awareness, math and hunting. It was the puzzle, the challenge of hunting someone down that made the entire process interesting, something that seems to be lacking with the new system.
<3 I feel exactly the same. The current style is extremily engaging and an 99% mental game. In kali, according to the things I've seen it's 75% skillpoints, 20% luck 5% skill (basic orientation in space and scanner).
When this comes to pass, it'll be the second time I will be spanked out of my specialty for a 2nd content patch in a row. I may sound like a whiny *****, but seeing my work for over a year being rendered obsolete makes me a sad panda.
Anyway, back to the thing. The observator seriously need to get looked at. It needs the deviation result nerfed by about 4.000 times. Otherwise there will be no possibility of two fleets coexisting in the same solarsystem (bar pos hugging). The blob will always get you in 30 seconds because at least 4-5 of the hostile battleships will show up on the 20-sec scan. And that is nothing but the beggining of the changes the current stats will bring. Oh, haven't rechecked the stats in the past 3 days, so I may be rambling about old news.
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.11 01:09:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Dahin
The observator seriously need to get looked at. It needs the deviation result nerfed by about 4.000 times. Otherwise there will be no possibility of two fleets coexisting in the same solarsystem (bar pos hugging). The blob will always get you in 30 seconds because at least 4-5 of the hostile battleships will show up on the 20-sec scan.
A battleship only have around 0.2-0.3 signal strength then using observetor probes. Enough for at least 4-5 battleships to show up as you say but not enough to get any of those with less than 500km scan deviation (same grid) unless you are very lucky. Have not worked out how scan deviation is calculated yet but it seems to end up around 5.000-10.000km avg with that signal strength.
So you need to drop a second probe which can be seen etc or you need to keep scanning for a long time before you get a result close enough.
I don't see observetors as a problem; what is a problem is the sensor specific ones. They been nerfed a bit now (down from 192 to 64 au max) but they still have such high sensor strength that you will get an effective signal strength above 1 which means 0m scan deviation.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.11 09:45:00 -
[107]
What the Kali changes are basically going to do is bring more gate camps, because you're going to have to wait in the next system until you're ready to engage, I guess. That or sit at a POS, because as it stands I can find any ship within 64AU within three minutes.
As to the lack of skill thing, yes, to a degree this is true, and I'm not entirely happy with it, but it's not that bad, IMO. That's not a final opinion though.
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Dutarro
Kydance Radiant Industries Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.11 11:48:00 -
[108]
There's a possible bit of explorable content on Singularity in HED-GP, an object of type "LCO Minmatar Lookout" named "You've found an N". With the old-fashioned directional scan we determined that it's about 20,000 km from the outpost that's built there. However, I was totally unable to lock it with scan probes, even using a Ladar Sift probe while sitting right by the outpost. At 20,000 km using the highest accuracy probe of the appropriate racial type, it should be a cinch to scan the thing shouldn't it? I really think the new scan probes are bugged when it comes to structures and cosmic signatures.
Oh also there is a thing called an "Ultra Fast Control Tower" in the same system, which I did manage to lock with scan probes but only to within 0.8AU so I never got to see it. And also directional scan finds a "Deadspace Signature" which does NOT have a beacon, which seems to be exactly what exploration is all about. Again, though, I wasn't able to lock it with any scan probes. Anyone with more patience/skill have better results there?
------------------------ *opinions stated are not necessarily those of my corporation or alliance |
Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.11 12:57:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Dutarro There's a possible bit of explorable content on Singularity in HED-GP, an object of type "LCO Minmatar Lookout" named "You've found an N".
Wasn't that from that contest Burn Eden won? There where clues that pointed to systems where you found those letters ("N" in this case) and you were supposed to make some eve related word with them.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.11 22:51:00 -
[110]
Yeah, the N is a defunct thing from the treasure hunt thing. The thing you're looking for is, as surmised, the Deadspace Signature. The sig strength for a cosmic signature, even at point blank (50k or so) range with sifts is generally 0.3 at best, so you just need to grind it currently :(
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Sarthas Nohshayess
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Posted - 2006.11.11 23:41:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Sarthas Nohshayess on 11/11/2006 23:44:03 Oops posted with wrong character ... deleted
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Dutarro
Kydance Radiant Industries Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.11 23:44:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Sarthas Nohshayess on 11/11/2006 23:43:18
Originally by: Hoshi ...That would make the final formula like this: Signal Strength = (Probe Strength * (1-(0.65 * ((Target Range / Max Range)^1.5))) * Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength) / 100...
Nice Analysis. So you could look at the total probability of the probe locking a target as the product of three independent factors:
Plock = Fprobe * Ftarget * Frange
Fprobe = (probe strength) / 100 Ftarget = (target sig radius) / (target sensor strength) Frange = 1 - 0.65 * (target range / max range)^1.5
Presumably if (Plock > 1), the lock is automatic. Now what about the race-specific probes looking for race-specific ships? For example let's say you look for a Megathron with a Gravimetric Sift probe ... Mega's gravimetric sensor strength is zero, so is it totally undetectable with that probe? ------------------------ *opinions stated are not necessarily those of my corporation or alliance |
Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2006.11.12 01:36:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Helison on 12/11/2006 01:36:56
Originally by: Dutarro [snip] Presumably if (Plock > 1), the lock is automatic. Now what about the race-specific probes looking for race-specific ships? For example let's say you look for a Megathron with a Gravimetric Sift probe ... Mega's gravimetric sensor strength is zero, so is it totally undetectable with that probe?
The Gravimetric Sift probe has a gravimetric sensor strength of 1000 and a sensor strenght of 200 for the other three types (including magnetometric). As the megathron has only a magnetometric sensor strenght, this one will be compared.
So according to your nomenclature Ftarget would be 19 (400 sig, 21 sensor) and Fprobe would be 2. For close targets Plock would be 38, but the Sift probes arenŠt intended for ship-scanning anyway.
BTW: Has anybody already tested if deadspace signatures have a special racial sensor strenght? I noticed for sure, that the sensor strength of different deadspace signatures is not the same. One deadspace signature had a Ftarget of 1, a second a Ftarget of 0.5 and a third a Ftarget of 0.1, assuming that I didnŠt use the correct racial probe-type (otherwise Ftarget should be multiplied with 5). There were also other signatures, but I wasnŠt able to lock them once. Normally I used Comb probes for my scans.
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Aertuun
Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.12 03:46:00 -
[114]
Updated the sticky with the completed formula.
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Dutarro
Kydance Radiant Industries Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.12 05:23:00 -
[115]
Do any of the pirate faction ships have sensor strengths in multiple types? (Ashimmu, Nightmare, etc.) If so I wonder which one is used in the formula, or if it's some kind of average of them. ------------------------ *opinions stated are not necessarily those of my corporation or alliance |
Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.11.12 13:15:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Helison BTW: Has anybody already tested if deadspace signatures have a special racial sensor strenght? I noticed for sure, that the sensor strength of different deadspace signatures is not the same. One deadspace signature had a Ftarget of 1, a second a Ftarget of 0.5 and a third a Ftarget of 0.1, assuming that I didnŠt use the correct racial probe-type (otherwise Ftarget should be multiplied with 5). There were also other signatures, but I wasnŠt able to lock them once. Normally I used Comb probes for my scans.
Are you sure you've been picking up variances in Ftarget and not Plock? I've been getting signal strengths all over the spectrum but, one set of inconclusive data aside, they all point to an identical Ftarget so far (around 0.11, IIRC).
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Olivin
Gallente Aquarium
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Posted - 2006.11.12 17:22:00 -
[117]
Hi,
Although I appreciate the effort of improving scanning and exploration , I must say that new scanning system blows big time. There are no skills involved anymore and whole process requires only sufficient amount of SP. I feel sad that my experience and knowledge will be nerfed by Kali patch.
Olivin
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WTB: Any character with high standings torwards pirate factions |
Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.12 19:31:00 -
[118]
Just great...
CCP changes an old, flawed, bad looking system into something great and useful just so people can start complaining even more.
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Olivin
Gallente Aquarium
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Posted - 2006.11.12 22:22:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Amira Silvermist Just great...
CCP changes an old, flawed, bad looking system into something great and useful just so people can start complaining even more.
1. Current scanning system is fine. It does requires little bit of brain usage, but that's a beauty of this. If you try hard you can find stuff.
2. New system is moron proof. You will need some SP, probe launcher and ability to click "Find stuff" button. Is that what you call a "great and useful"?
Olivin
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WTB: Any character with high standings torwards pirate factions |
Amira Silvermist
Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2006.11.12 23:07:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Olivin
1. Current scanning system is fine. It does requires little bit of brain usage, but that's a beauty of this. If you try hard you can find stuff.
2. New system is moron proof. You will need some SP, probe launcher and ability to click "Find stuff" button. Is that what you call a "great and useful"?
So you think that dropping 3 probes in a triangle is "brain usage"? Yea, right...
You can still use the directional scanner for finding people faster because its useless to scan for people with a weak probe and land 500 km away from them.
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