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Aertuun Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:54:00 - [1] Exploration and Scan Probing in Kali Source: TomB Dev Blog ------ Probes We will change probes so that they are capable of scanning as singletons and give results on found objects. This means you wonÆt need three probes to create a pizza-alike triangle to find objects within. They are getting scan strength which is used for finding objects. Inaccuracy and scan radius will also be getting some tuning to increase usability of all the probes. Lost & Found Just finding objects will be based on the probe type you are using. Its stats will 'battle' against the stats of the objects within its scan radius, if the probe wins it finds the object and gives you the estimated location of the findings. The factors used on the objects for this mini-battle are signature radius (big is bad) and scan strength (high is good), where frigates are commonly harder to find than battleships/ capital ships, while recon based ships are in general the hardest ships to find. Inaccuracy Inaccuracy has been modified as well; the harder it was for the probe to find the object, the higher the probability of error. Still there is a little chance factored here, so you might get lucky/unlucky with a sloppy long range probe and land in the face of the thing you scanned. Addons New stuff will be added to make players that want to specialize init to become better, faster and more stylish atit: * 1x new Launcher (Recon Probe Launcher; fast and deadly - made for ship scanning) * ?x new Probes (special ones to find special things) * 2-3x new Skills (increased efficiency, faster scanning (Astrometrics changed to give more groups to scan for) and perhaps faster deployment) UI / Usability We have improved the scanning window in many ways, making it easier to operate and changed all this no-good group selection thingy while still adding more stuff to scan for. But instead of selecting a single ship group as you do today, we have merged a lot of groups to keep it more simple, making it only five groups to scan for, and these five groups can also be scanned for at the same time if you have the skillz. One of these groups is just ôShipsö - selecting that group scans for all ship types in the game, this and the new recon scanning should make it a lot faster for scanner dudes to pin-point a ship in a system. ----- Forum comments from TomB TomB: Now there's something I forgot to mention; 1. Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person 2. Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses 3. Inaccuracy is stacked as well with even freakier results, "stacking" a probe with high inaccruacy and another one with low inaccuracy won't give the same results as if the low inaccuracy would have given you -- Quote: So basicly safespotting remains the Uber and anyone who has managed to create an off grid safespot 10 warps out from any point of the system is sill impossible to find and kill? There will be a probe with almost unlimited range, it's not the best but it will be able to find ships that have gone to far into space. And it will be able to work alone, like all probes will. -- Quote: I would also like to know about the possibility of scanning for a cloaked ship. Cloaked ships will be scanable, but they won't get uncloaked if they are found on the scanner. -- Quote: Can recon launchers only be fitted on recon ships? Woopsie, the name "Recon Launcher" has nothing to do with Recon ships there, it's just called that atm, Covert Ops are still supposed to be equally or even more scan based than Recons. I'll get the name changed, thanks for pointing that out.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:55:00 - [2] Edited by: Aertuun on 27/10/2006 16:56:17 Edited by: Aertuun on 27/10/2006 16:55:36 Quote: Will deadspace signatures for exploration items always be in the same systems? These deadspace signatures won't be static, you can read more about it here. Or here: "We are creating a distribution mechanic that will deploy hidden locations throughout space, pockets which will move to new locations when they feel like it, but dependent on what the pilots are doing in the world. With this Exploration system, players of all types will be able to strike gold, hit the jack pot, find the golden pot under the rainbow or what ever someone might call it." ----- Dev blog showing examples of exploration and scan probing: A Story of Elvis and Sigfried And comment: TomB: The colour shows how hard it was to spot the found object, which leads to inaccuracy of the scan result. Red means: that thing is so big that it glows in dark space. ----- Screenshots of new probe modules: Screenshot 1 Screenshot 2 ----- Comments following the opening of Kali testing: Tuxford: The recon probe launchers are more for hunting ships. The other probes, gravimetric and such named are very accurate but take a lot of time to scan. They are mostly useful for finding celestial anomalies. Tuxford: Ok here's the deal with snoop probes. They are really expected to go into the recon probes which has a two minute base scan time. With good skills you can put them into the scan probe launchers but why would you do that. You're better of using one of the bigger probes if you're gonna do that anyway. Tuxford: Actually snoop, spook, fathom, ferret and so on are all better in the recon probe launcher. If you can fit it in the recon probe launcher, use that one because its scans faster. Of course those gravimetric, radar, lader and magnetometric probes don't fit in the recon probe launcher.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:57:00 - [3] -- reserved --
Effei Gloom Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 17:20:00 - [4] how about a button to remove: 1. empty floating ships (boardable) like shuttle and noob ships...(empty ships inside FF) from scann results 2. ships of gang mates / alliance / corp mates / pilots with high standings from scannresults -> apply overview settings on scannresults! main problem at moment is still that you cannot scan for war targets effectively as long as you get results for friendly ships
Cicilus Hadrican Caldari Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.28 03:17:00 - [5] Originally by: Effei Gloom how about a button to remove: 1. empty floating ships (boardable) like shuttle and noob ships...(empty ships inside FF) from scann results 2. ships of gang mates / alliance / corp mates / pilots with high standings from scannresults -> apply overview settings on scannresults! main problem at moment is still that you cannot scan for war targets effectively as long as you get results for friendly ships have to agree with effei on this. Maybe an option such as "Use Overview Settings" sorta like that scanner, but allows to remove scanning friendly signatures. Kinda annoying to warp to a friendly pos and curse at the couple mil in probes you wasted
Riley Craven Caldari Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.28 05:39:00 - [6] Can you list out the descriptions and reqs of the items and skills as well in your screenies?
Panta Rei ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.28 09:07:00 - [7] Good post, nice to see a summery
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:54:00 - [8] I¦ve played a "bit" with scan probes and my results are the following: ) The scan strength of the "fast" long-range-probes (specially ferret and observator) is quite low. You would need several scans to even find a BS. Specially Observator is pretty useless in the moment. In most cases the "racial" quest probe is much better. It takes much longer for a single scan, but you would have to make several scans with the observator probe anyway. Only for even bigger distances the observator probe would be needed. ) The inaccuracy seems to be buggy in 26098. Only in the cases with a very low scan strength I get a scan deviation. Normally I am able to warp directly at 15km to the target. *) The ability to see your scan results on your solarsystem-view is great, most times this should be enough to seperate friendly ships from hostile ships.

Mephysto	Posted - 2006.10.28 13:21:00 - [9] Nice info listing.

Gragnor Order of the Arrow	Posted - 2006.10.28 22:41:00 - [10] Could someone please elaborate on what is meant by the ability to scan down recon ships? This sounds like a nerf to cloaking?

Bohoba Caldari The Dark Angles	Posted - 2006.10.29 02:46:00 - [11] Originally by: Gragnor Could someone please elaborate on what is meant by the ability to scan down recon ships? This sounds like a nerf to cloaking? I think what he said was Yes you will be able to scan a cloaked ship but the ship will be cloaked so they will still be safe. somewhat now we have a chance to get that AFK cloaker in local :) I have to see how this works, I can see a problem with this also if you warp in 20 peeps and have them launch drones and buzz the area. Or the co-ops after warping to the spot just uses approch to decloak you. hummm the first I don't have a problem with, but the approch thing I would. we will have to test this out once test server comes back online. Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
Iog Krugar Gallente The Rising Stars	Posted - 2006.10.29 14:10:00 - [12] i know its been posted, but my search skills fail me... could someone please post a link to the KALI Covert Ops changes to CPU and such, i think that info would make sense in this sticky. thanks --- i suposse everyone rolls around stations in pods
Roderick Blaine	Posted - 2006.10.29 19:57:00 - [13] It should not be possible to get a location of at least a cloaked ship as near as lets say 60km. Why, because that would it make way too easy to find it using drones or a frigate swarm, as already mentioned. The cloaked ship would have no chance especially if it is BS that can not move fast or warp out. With a range of 60km the cloaked ship would be forced to stay cloaked. Also consider that these changes are very good for pirates when they want to kill mission runners. Another thing that should be changed together with the probe change is that you can explicitly scan for probes using the scanner filter. That is currently not possible. When you currently try to use the scanner to find out if someone is scanning you, you have to guess based on the ship types or you have to do a complete scan. A complete scan takes ages. And the ships that are scanning may warp far away after launching the probe before they start to perform the actual scan. The balance in this change is very important. It must not be too easy to find someone/something in space just as it should not be possible to hide for ever if one is idle. Also one thing that must be check is that a probe should not be able to find a ship that is warping around while the scan is performed. And what about fast moving ships. What position will be found by a probe that scanns for 2 minutes when the ships is traveling 70km?
Sexorella hotz Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.29 20:14:00 - [14] Originally by: Roderick Blaine It should not be possible to get a location of at least a cloaked ship as near as lets say 60km. Why, because that would it make way too easy to find it using drones or a frigate swarm, as already mentioned. The cloaked ship would have no chance especially if it is BS that can not move fast or warp out. With a range of 60km the cloaked ship would be forced to stay cloaked. Also consider that these changes are very good for pirates when they want to kill mission runners. Another thing that should be changed together with the probe change is that you can explicitly scan for probes using the scanner filter. That is currently not possible. When you currently try to use the scanner to find out if someone is scanning you, you have to guess based on the ship types or you have to do a complete scan. A complete scan takes ages. And the ships that are scanning may warp far away after launching the probe before they start to perform the actual scan. The balance in this change is very important. It must not be too easy to find someone/something in space just as it should not be possible to hide for ever if one is idle. Also one thing that must be check is that a probe should not be able to find a ship that is warping around while the scan is performed. And what about fast moving ships. What position will be found by a probe that scanns for 2 minutes when the ships is traveling 70km? Just my thoughts on teh first point, a covops of any sort can easily get away if he's paying attention and realizes people are trying to spot him. Which makes sense. As for the mission runner in a raven who fits a cloak to hide when someone shows up in local, they get what they deserve(Mind you I'm a buzzard and a raven pilot, so I get both ends of that stick, never have fitted a cloak on the raven though). To give you an idea though, assuming we jump 20 guys to search a ball of space of 60km radius, that's nearly 20000 km3 that they have ot search, and they don't even know where the center of that ball(the target it, so it gets worse, and the target can fly away, albeit slowly, or he can align, come out of cloak, and quickly warp away. Point is, cloaked folks are still going to be fairly safe. Be nice to get the AFK ones though.
Illuminaty ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.29 21:45:00 - [15] Two questions: a) Are ships that warp between 2 safe spots still essentially 100% invulnerable to probes? b) If you scan out a cloaked ship, warp to its location, and then simply click you speed gauge to start moving, will that put you on a collision course with the cloaked ship, like it does when you warp in on an object from a normal warp.
Darkcraft Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.29 22:25:00 - [16] Edited by: Darkcraft on 29/10/2006 22:25:34 Not that i have a basis for my answers but.. a. A ship that warps between 2 safe spots isn't 100% invulnerable, difficult but not impossible. I've managed to *** the safe of a ship warping between safes, just happened to be able to get close enough to one of the safes and start scanning such that the target arrived at his safe just before the scan completed. Warped to his safe, confirmed to ***, and proceeded to line up a warp in for when he next came back. I know this has been of no use to you, but its not 100% garan. b. i'd imagine it would stay as is, when you warp to a found signature you're not pointed on a direct course right at your target. I'm not sure how its worked out but i've never arrived at a safe and just had to fly straight.
Langhorn Gallente BMF Corp	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:08:00 - [17] in my opinion the skill requirements for some of the new exploration probes is to harsh. At the moment, they all need Astrometrics 5. This, coupled with the new bonus given by the Astrometrics skill to scan for different amount of groups leads to an all or nothing situation. I would rather see some of the probes changed to have lower skill level requirements to promote progression towards being a master explorer. For example. Astrometrics 1 - Basic Ship and moon scanning probes + use of probe launchers Astrometrics 2 - Can now scan for 2 groups, plus use the 4 Quest probes. Astrometrics 3 - Can now scan for 3 groups, plus use the 4 Pursuit Probes. Astrometrics 4 - Can now scan for 4 groups, plus use the 4 Comb Probes. Astrometrics 5 - Can now scan for 5 groups, plus use the 4 Sift Probes. I have not included the other ship and moon survey probe details beyond first level.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.10.30 16:46:00 - [18] Edited by: Matthew on 30/10/2006 16:46:57 Edited by: Matthew on 30/10/2006 16:46:11 Originally by: Illuminaty b) If you scan out a cloaked ship, warp to its location, and then simply click you speed gauge to start moving, will that put you on a collision course with the cloaked ship, like it does when you warp in on an object from a normal warp. That should only happen if you're very lucky, given that the error on your warp-in could be in any direction from the target - i.e. it's just as likely that you warp to a point 60km to one side of the target rather than 60km in front of the target. E.g., with Y=You, T=Target, and W=point you exit warp at: Y------------W------T will do as you describe. However, you could just as easily have: Y------------T------W and just flying forward will get you further from the target. Of course, you're likely to have something in between, such as: Y------------W .............\| .............T EDIT: ok, so ascii art messed up on the last one, imagine the \| coming down from the W, with the T below that. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Cosmic Flame	Posted - 2006.10.30 18:59:00 - [19] Edited by: Cosmic Flame on 30/10/2006 19:16:45 One thing wrong currently on TQ scanner which imho should be corrected (if not done so on Kali) is the Inability to remove neutral standings pilots from overview. In an empire war, people to whom we don't have standings towards matter not. Why can't we set it up so ONLY WAR TARGETS so up? It's not possible as there is no option to remove "neutrals". Edit: Actually another major thing wrong with the current TQ scanner is the "use overview settings". It doesnt actually work right. If you have a overview setting that filters out only hostile ships, when you open up the scanner and scan, why do you pick up friendly ships as well as hostiles? It's not really using the overview settings like that, just partly using them.
Astar Null Gallente eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.30 20:09:00 - [20] I haven't played around with the kali test code yet, so these are ignorant questions: Tomb's comments: 1. Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person 2. Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses regarding comment 1; If you use the Kali version of an obvservator probe (unlimited range) then you can't use it with anything else? I use this as an extreme example but it gets my point across. If a player wants to set up a nextwork of several probes why can't he? What game balance is lost if somoene makes the effort to set up a (decaying) network of scan probes to blanket an area? Modern day anti-submarine warfare does exactly this. They deploy numerous sonar buoys in an attempt to locate their target. Players in EVE should be able to do the same. Furthermore, do we have to select which probes are on each scan attempt? Why not reverse the situation. Instead, after finding a ship with a rough scan you keep deploying probes and ask the probe software and beacons to keep scanning for that ONE ship. All probes are queried with the request and it happens automatically. This WOULD make scan probing brutally effective against a non-moving ship and even effective against moving ships.

Irrilian Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2006.10.30 22:43:00 - [21] A suggestion for the replacement of the current live scanner mini system map which is rather hand for building a mental 3d model of the area you're searching. Would it be possible to integrate this function into the new system map, to have a 3d cone projecting from your ship indicating the area and direction of space you're currently scanning?
Nymos Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.10.31 05:24:00 - [22] Originally by: Cosmic Flame One thing wrong currently on TQ scanner which imho should be corrected (if not done so on Kali) is the Inability to remove neutral standings pilots from overview. oh yes please, this is a very important feature that needs to be looked into. you need to triple check what you lock in empire wars and lose valuable time or risk to be concordokkened. if that can be implemented with the scanner overhaul that would be great. as for being able to find a cloaked ship: why that? how would a probe be able to find a cloaked ship if my much more powerful scanners for close range (aka overview) is not able to spot it? i agree that a cloaked ship is practically immune to detection which really sucks if it's you being scouted, but using probes this seems a bit overpowered. and if the scanning error is too large and puts you too far off the cloaked ship it's useless anyway. cov ops and force recons are by design ships that rely on their cloaking ability. for the rest that cannot fit covert ops cloaks the penalties are already high enough to discourage fitting one. --
Rath Etzam	Posted - 2006.10.31 09:58:00 - [23] One thing I'm wondering about is scanning of cans. For 0.0 operations of single players or small corps (yes, I'm in one of those :)) they are kind of vital to the operation. So with the new scanner, the cans can be scanned out and destroyed? I just want to make sure before Kali hits TQ, so I can get my stuff out of those cans :)
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.31 10:21:00 - [24] Originally by: Rath Etzam One thing I'm wondering about is scanning of cans. For 0.0 operations of single players or small corps (yes, I'm in one of those :)) they are kind of vital to the operation. So with the new scanner, the cans can be scanned out and destroyed? I just want to make sure before Kali hits TQ, so I can get my stuff out of those cans :) If I remember correctly there was a Containers option for one of the scan groups. But There is a bug atm so you can't choose any other groups than ships so there is no way of testing it. As soon as I get a few hours undisturbed on SiSi you will get a large report on how this thing work in reality.
TalanR Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.31 10:56:00 - [25] If you are going to be able to scan cloaked ships they need to release a module that counters scanning or at least makes it more difficult
Tanya Raskov	Posted - 2006.10.31 11:03:00 - [26] Ok. I like all this scaning and probes. What about countermeasure for this ? How do you defend against this ? There must be something like deployable anti-probe field, anti-probe containers etc. As for scaning cloaked ships, please exclude covert ops and recon ships. Those should be unscanable while cloaked. Remember that hiding is easier than finding.
xenodia Gallente RONA Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.31 23:37:00 - [27] Originally by: Astar Null I haven't played around with the kali test code yet, so these are ignorant questions: Tomb's comments: 1. Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person 2. Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses regarding comment 1; If you use the Kali version of an obvservator probe (unlimited range) then you can't use it with anything else? I use this as an extreme example but it gets my point across. If a player wants to set up a nextwork of several probes why can't he? What game balance is lost if somoene makes the effort to set up a (decaying) network of scan probes to blanket an area? Modern day anti-submarine warfare does exactly this. They deploy numerous sonar buoys in an attempt to locate their target. Players in EVE should be able to do the same. Furthermore, do we have to select which probes are on each scan attempt? Why not reverse the situation. Instead, after finding a ship with a rough scan you keep deploying probes and ask the probe software and beacons to keep scanning for that ONE ship. All probes are queried with the request and it happens automatically. This WOULD make scan probing brutally effective against a non-moving ship and even effective against moving ships. Nobody said the scan area of probes can overlap. You just cant sit at one spot and launch multiple probes. For example, if you want to use a pair of 3AU probes, you cant put probe 2 closer than 3AU to probe 1, but you CAN put it close enough that there will be some area of overlap in between. This signature space for rent
Xcom Gallente Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.01 05:25:00 - [28] The scanning system sounds very confusing. Can someone pleas help to clarify some of the stuff. 1. What is this scan strength? Is it the Radar, Ladar, Magnetometric, Gravimetric things? What does it mean that some have more Radar strength than the other stuff? What exactly does the stacking of these strengths mean? More chance of finding targets or better chance of getting closer to the target after the scan is complete? 2. What is inaccuracy? Is it the ômaximum scan deviationö? 3. How are you meant to use the Snoop probes? If you need 3 probes to start a scan and you only have 2 min to deploy the 3 probes and need to place them outside the scan area of each other (5AU). Makes the time limitation a bit too impossible? First jump around and place the probes within 150sec, then start the probing process that takes 120 sec??? Not even Chuck Norris would be able to do it. 4. Is the target your scanning for suppose to be inside the fall over of the 3 probes? Are you supposed to make BM in mid space then deploy the probes? Or is it possible to place the probes randomly in the system and 1 of the probes close to your target. 5. I donÆt understand how the scanning process is supposed to be dun. Are you supposed to start with the long range ones and then move closer? That doesnÆt work for the object scanners. The max deviation will make you end up to close to the target to place the more accurate 3 probes. Like starting with the Fathom then going over to the Snoop. 6. If the scanning strength relates to the possibility of finding the target how are you supposed to find your target when you donÆt get a result. How do you know that youÆre scanning the right area? You might end up scanning the wrong place 20 times. Or scan the right place to few times and not find anything and move on to soon. But apart from all that, it would be nice to have a tutorial in the tutorial section that fully describes the probing system. Like the turret and missile tutorials.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.01 10:16:00 - [29] 1: As far as I know this has not been tested enough yet for anyone to know. I've been trying to test it be haven't been able to get enough time on sisi to do the proper tests (will take several hours). 2: Correct but it seems broken atm on some probe types, you land much closer than you are supposed to. Note that this was true in the old system as well. 3-5: You don't "need" 3 probes to scan, 1 is enough. You can launch more to get better strength/more accurate result but snoops has such high strength and low divination that you probably only need 1. 6: You still have the standard ship scanner so if they are less than ca 15au away you know if you are in the right area or not. If you use observetor it covers the whole system so again you know it's correctly placed and you just need to scan again. The only probe where it might become a problem is the ferret probe with 40 au range. But remember that if you use a recon launcher on a covert with level 4 skills it only takes around 45 sec to do a scan, 30 sec with max skills. It's only the sensor specific probes that need a standard probe launcher to use with it's higher scan time. But these have so much higher sensor strength (even their non specific strength on their weakest probe is stronger than the strongest non specific probe).
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2006.11.02 16:58:00 - [30] What about decoy bouys that you can drop that remain in said location for x ammount of time and appear as y ship type to scanner probes.

Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.03 02:34:00 - [31] Originally by: Christopher Dalran What about decoy bouys that you can drop that remain in said location for x ammount of time and appear as y ship type to scanner probes. Yeah, there was some discussion a while back about EW modules being used to create "ghosts" on either the overview or the scanner. This would be really fun to do. - Got grief?
xttz	Posted - 2006.11.03 04:32:00 - [32] Originally by: Tanya Raskov Ok. I like all this scaning and probes. What about countermeasure for this ? How do you defend against this ? There must be something like deployable anti-probe field, anti-probe containers etc. As for scaning cloaked ships, please exclude covert ops and recon ships. Those should be unscanable while cloaked. I think the ability to scan cloaked ships is more targeted at non-recon types using cloaks, such as ganking battleships (who do hit-and-run attacks from cloaked safespots), and especially cloaked carriers that can currently hide in deep safespots and assign fighters with no chance of being found or stopped. The Op said that "recon based ships are in general the hardest ships to find" as it should be. I imagine any recon pilot would have sufficient warning that they were being probed out by simply checking their own scanner for short-range probes. It does however prevent afk recon pilots from interfering in systems simply by their presence in local. In 0.0, routes with known recon gangs can scare away travelers by simply idling in a cloaked safespot and going afk.
Dahin Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.03 21:04:00 - [33] Originally by: xenodia Edited by: xenodia on 02/11/2006 16:46:30 Originally by: Astar Null I haven't played around with the kali test code yet, so these are ignorant questions: Tomb's comments: 1. Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person 2. Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses regarding comment 1; If you use the Kali version of an obvservator probe (unlimited range) then you can't use it with anything else? I use this as an extreme example but it gets my point across. If a player wants to set up a nextwork of several probes why can't he? What game balance is lost if somoene makes the effort to set up a (decaying) network of scan probes to blanket an area? Modern day anti-submarine warfare does exactly this. They deploy numerous sonar buoys in an attempt to locate their target. Players in EVE should be able to do the same. Furthermore, do we have to select which probes are on each scan attempt? Why not reverse the situation. Instead, after finding a ship with a rough scan you keep deploying probes and ask the probe software and beacons to keep scanning for that ONE ship. All probes are queried with the request and it happens automatically. This WOULD make scan probing brutally effective against a non-moving ship and even effective against moving ships. Nobody said the scan area of probes cant overlap. You just cant sit at one spot and launch multiple probes. For example, if you want to use a pair of 3AU probes, you cant put probe 2 closer than 3AU to probe 1, but you CAN put it close enough that there will be some area of overlap in between. If both the probes are within range of the target, then it is derived that at least part of the scanning spheres of the probes overap.
The Enslaver Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.03 21:49:00 - [34] Are the deadspace signatures even in yet? I've looked in a load of systems and not found anything, and from what I've heard they are supposed to be quite common... --------
Dahin Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.03 22:54:00 - [35] Edited by: Dahin on 03/11/2006 22:58:30 Edited by: Dahin on 03/11/2006 22:55:09 Ok, the status of the probing is very messed up. I will only adress the combat aspect of probing, didn't bother with the rest yet. For this example, I'm using the force recon probe launcher and the good ole set of probes. On my cheetah, no rigs, lvl1 analysis (that new skill that gives 10% scan time per level). Probing time: 55seconds, this will most probably decrease to about 30 secs or less with rigs and higher lvls of the skill (70% bonus extra). General changes: * Hugely icreased probing time for ships (downwards to 20-30 secs). * Extreme ease of use. There is no art in this. pop a probe, click, get result. * Depiction of results on the system map greatly helps visualisation of situation. * Various warp distances to results, although no gangwarp function. * You get to see what sihptype is the result down the geddon, hyperion... detail. * You can now destroy already deployed probes (yay!) * You CANNOT scan for cloaked ships yet, tried it * New probing interface extremily laggy, ghost results, failed scans for no reason, buttons going missing and yadda yadda yadda. * You can scann for all shiptypes simultaneously. I moved to p4 of fd-mlj and started popping probes. Results: snoop probes. Scan distance is now 5au compared to 3au. Compared to their usual stacking usage that gave tops 1au scanning range, that's a whopping 500% boost. So... scanning... Omg, results are ridiculous. Everything within 5au gives results with deviation of 0 meters. I can literally warp "in the face". Exceptions to these are shuttles and covops with the former giving ~500meters deviation and the latter about 60km. And that's with just lvl1 the skill that gives bonus to deviation results. So I was amazed with the results, I switched to the 48au probes which now have a range of 20 or 48 au (description says 48, attributes 20). Nevertheless, even 20au are more than sufficient for all uses. If he's on the scanner the probe gets him. And now... the surprise! The results are ridiculously accurate. I get again 0 meters deviations for bs and and some 600km and 2.000km results for shuttles frigs and cruisers. Wht does all this mean? If there's a hostile covops in the system, you have about 40 seconds to dissapear or you're pretty much toast. And I mean it. Also, there is no way you can hide in the system no more. You better have about 100 different safespots and hop from one to another every time you come out of warp or you will be killed. In summary, the current stats on the probes cannot be described by the 'overpowered' term. It's simply too BBQ. I believe this is not the original intention of the devs, and therefore it's a 'bug' or mistaken entries.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.04 00:31:00 - [36] Am currently doing probe testing. So far, system seems to be holding up well. It also seems remarkably well balanced. Contrary to Dahin's post above, which seems to be confused about how the new probes work. Signal strength is new, and refers to the percentage chance of finding an object during a scan. 1+ signal strength will mean a result every time. Less than that can be translated into percentage: 0.75 = Ship will show up on after probe scan 75% of the time. Signal strengths seems to depend on: (Signature radius + Sensor Strength) of ship vs (Distance from target + Sensor Strength) of probe i.e. a probe at max range will have a much harder time finding things then ships sitting right next to it. A shuttle is much harder to find than a battleship, for example. Larger groups of ships are easier to find than small groups of ships, as there's more chance of one ship returning a "result" and therefore leading you to the others. Scan probes do NOT seem to stack their sensor strength between gang members. Will try stacking sensor strength of my own probes once back on server.
Dahin Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.04 01:47:00 - [37] Edited by: Dahin on 04/11/2006 01:48:19 Edited by: Dahin on 04/11/2006 01:47:53 can you please pinpoint my mistakes so we can get the ball rolling? Those 0km deviations are not imaginary. I'd warp to targets and land 0km off them (with the current nifty warp to 0 km ability on the testserver). All I kept getting was 0km deviations with a few in-between deviations of a few km. Edit: Hmmm, I will try to get targets further off my immediate range. Most of them were within a few au's.
Misses Gap Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.04 14:07:00 - [38] Originally by: Nymos Originally by: Cosmic Flame One thing wrong currently on TQ scanner which imho should be corrected (if not done so on Kali) is the Inability to remove neutral standings pilots from overview. oh yes please, this is a very important feature that needs to be looked into. you need to triple check what you lock in empire wars and lose valuable time or risk to be concordokkened. if that can be implemented with the scanner overhaul that would be great. as for being able to find a cloaked ship: why that? how would a probe be able to find a cloaked ship if my much more powerful scanners for close range (aka overview) is not able to spot it? i agree that a cloaked ship is practically immune to detection which really sucks if it's you being scouted, but using probes this seems a bit overpowered. and if the scanning error is too large and puts you too far off the cloaked ship it's useless anyway. cov ops and force recons are by design ships that rely on their cloaking ability. for the rest that cannot fit covert ops cloaks the penalties are already high enough to discourage fitting one. I want to second (third) that ! With so many other non combatant ships around in say - an empire war it is sheer luck should you find the safespot of your enemy when using probes. Granted - with the regular scanner and some guesswork you have a chance, but probes will just show all other 382 cruisers instead of the 5 enemy ones you are looking for. This be addressed makes many many PvPer cry in happyness and worship the Devs. Gap
Inertia Foryu Caldari Quantum Warfare Research and Development	Posted - 2006.11.04 14:16:00 - [39] Originally by: Christopher Dalran What about decoy bouys that you can drop that remain in said location for x ammount of time and appear as y ship type to scanner probes. Ha! That would be fun. We can call them "Cry Babies" in reference to Firefly :) ------ Sci-Fi Fan? Geek? The WarpZone Podcast

Oveur	Posted - 2006.11.04 14:26:00 - [40] Originally by: Aertuun Am currently doing probe testing. So far, system seems to be holding up well. It also seems remarkably well balanced. Contrary to Dahin's post above, which seems to be confused about how the new probes work. Signal strength is new, and refers to the percentage chance of finding an object during a scan. 1+ signal strength will mean a result every time. Less than that can be translated into percentage: 0.75 = Ship will show up on after probe scan 75% of the time. Signal strengths seems to depend on: (Signature radius + Sensor Strength) of ship vs (Distance from target + Sensor Strength) of probe i.e. a probe at max range will have a much harder time finding things then ships sitting right next to it. A shuttle is much harder to find than a battleship, for example. Larger groups of ships are easier to find than small groups of ships, as there's more chance of one ship returning a "result" and therefore leading you to the others. Scan probes do NOT seem to stack their sensor strength between gang members. Will try stacking sensor strength of my own probes once back on server. Kali code on Sisi was updated yesterday, a lot scanning stuff fixed in it. Senior Producer EVE Online


Dark Legionary Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.04 18:08:00 - [41] Edited by: Dark Legionary on 04/11/2006 18:18:48 nm
Rigsta Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.11.04 23:59:00 - [42] Someone mentioned creating a scan probe network. Deployable probes ala warp bubbles sound like an interesting idea. Maybe force someone to go and check them once in a while, not necessarily consuming resources but still needing some kind of maintenance. Originally by: Jim McGregor I felt the disturbance... it was like a million voices suddenly stopped whining for a second. Unfortunantly it then continued.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.05 03:19:00 - [43] Done a few more scans today, and I noticed following (bad) behaviours: ) Faction 3AU probes: still not functional ) If a scanned object has a signal strength above 1.0, the scan deviation is 0. This is making scanning far too powerful!!! ) Drones have a very high signal strength, they are easier to be found as most ships. Maybe this is because their sensorstrength is as low. ) It¦s not possible to find any container etc.
Lily Savage CryoTech	Posted - 2006.11.05 08:23:00 - [44] Are the BPOs for scan probes going to be seeded?
Sunaria	Posted - 2006.11.05 09:32:00 - [45] well can we please discuss the exploration side of this thread now. I've read enough replies on how to find someones ship, quite frankly I don't really care about that aspect. The new exploration system however, there is little to no info on it except the fact you need astrometrics V to use the probes ... I sure hope that one isn't in the final build cause thats about 35 days of frigging skilling. Can we get some more info ? - What skills do you need ? - What launcher do you need ? - What probes do you need ? - How do you use exploration ? thnx in advance greets
Llyando Autora The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.05 10:02:00 - [46] Not sure if this is the right place for this but nm here goes... I will start by saying that I am quite capable of using scan probes on TQ, I have the skills, Astrometrics 2, Science is at 5 so that is not an issue and basically any other skill needed on TQ, I have. On SiSi I can launch a 5AU probe from either the recon or scan probe launcher, I go to my scanner and select the probe, try to select a group to scan for... and can't. It will not let me select a group, I click on a group but unlike TQ it does not highlight my selection. I click the analyse button and nothing happens (although the notice saying that I must select one group is still present at the top of the scanner). I have tried all sorts of random combinations of the above, from lauching 3 seperate scan probes in 3 locations, selcting all of them and continuing, different sequences of selecting probes, and destroying my current probe and starting again. Nothing seems to help. Anyone else had this problem or is it just me? (And if this isnt the place for this post could someone direct me to the correct spot?) Thanks, Llyando Autora
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.05 11:40:00 - [47] Originally by: Lily Savage Are the BPOs for scan probes going to be seeded? There are BPOs on the market, it is unknown if they are going to be seeded. Quote: If a scanned object has a signal strength above 1.0, the scan deviation is 0. This is making scanning far too powerful!!! This isn't too powerful, no. Given that at point blank range (less than 100km from the probe) a frigate such as a Maulus or Incursus comes out at 0.97 or 0.6 signal strength, we're highly unlikely to see scan deviations of 0 in any sort of real situations. This is with the probe sitting next to the ships. At any sort of distance, signal strength starts dropping. Quote: The new exploration system however, there is little to no info on it ... It's funny, I'm sure I saw quite a full explanation of it in the opening posts of this thread. Quote: On SiSi I can launch a 5AU probe from either the recon or scan probe launcher, I go to my scanner and select the probe, try to select a group to scan for... and can't. Try scanning without selecting a probe group. It should default to ships. AFAIK, that bug was fixed in a previous build however. Seems to work fine now. Quote: *) Drones have a very high signal strength, they are easier to be found as most ships. Maybe this is because their sensorstrength is as low. The signal strength of drones may need some tweaking. It is also impossible at the moment to probe out freighters, as they have no signal strength stat.
Sunaria	Posted - 2006.11.05 11:44:00 - [48] Originally by: Aertuun It's funny, I'm sure I saw quite a full explanation of it in the opening posts of this thread. nothing usefull I'm afraid
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.05 12:32:00 - [49] Managed to reverse engineer the formula for signal strength with a few hours of tests last night. System seems very solid, and allows for ship fittings that dramatically reduce your chances of being found with probes. Haven't checked the effects of cloaks on signal strength yet.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.05 14:04:00 - [50] Edited by: Aertuun on 05/11/2006 14:04:52 Spent a few hours last night working out how signal strength was calculated, with help from the beautiful assistants wapacz and Gli Liphon. Signal strength is the percentage chance a ship within your probe's range will be found. It also is used in determining result inaccuracy. Signal strength = (Signature radius of ship * Probe sensor strength * Ship Distance from probe (as a % of probe range)) divided by (Ship Sensor Strength * 100) So for a Raven being found with a Snoop probe at negligible range from the probe: Signal = (460 * 20 * 1.00 ) / (22 * 100) = 4.18 Currently unsure about: How the probe's range is converted into a percentage. At 9.77 AU range on a 10 AU probe, signal strength is reduced by 0.1895 (18.9%). It's possible there's a rock bottom of 15-16% signal strength exists for absolute max range. Also unsure how it scales between the two values (from zero range to max range). May do some tests today on that.

El Verbatim	Posted - 2006.11.05 15:38:00 - [51] Edited by: El Verbatim on 05/11/2006 15:46:38 Originally by: Llyando Autora Not sure if this is the right place for this but nm here goes... I will start by saying that I am quite capable of using scan probes on TQ, I have the skills, Astrometrics 2, Science is at 5 so that is not an issue and basically any other skill needed on TQ, I have. On SiSi I can launch a 5AU probe from either the recon or scan probe launcher, I go to my scanner and select the probe, try to select a group to scan for... and can't. It will not let me select a group, I click on a group but unlike TQ it does not highlight my selection. I click the analyse button and nothing happens (although the notice saying that I must select one group is still present at the top of the scanner). I have tried all sorts of random combinations of the above, from lauching 3 seperate scan probes in 3 locations, selcting all of them and continuing, different sequences of selecting probes, and destroying my current probe and starting again. Nothing seems to help. Anyone else had this problem or is it just me? (And if this isnt the place for this post could someone direct me to the correct spot?) Thanks, Llyando Autora exactly the same here... can't select any group, selection is just not accepted and Scanning doesn't do a thing. EDIT: mmm, although it didn't work for 30 mins, now suddenly it works.... opened, closed, reopened the scanner window a few times and having some patience.
doc627	Posted - 2006.11.05 17:01:00 - [52] This is one of the best things to happen to Eve. With my corp being the victims of the cloaked afk carrier on many occasions I am happy to see people can not hide forever in a system you own. I am also a recon pilot and only have a small problem with cloaked ships being "probe-able" but still if you get caught with the new probing system in any case. Then maybe you should reconsider your career as a recon pilot.
Salmack	Posted - 2006.11.05 18:20:00 - [53] Edited by: Salmack on 05/11/2006 18:20:07 Originally by: xttz I think the ability to scan cloaked ships is more targeted at non-recon types using cloaks, such as ganking battleships (who do hit-and-run attacks from cloaked safespots), and especially cloaked carriers that can currently hide in deep safespots and assign fighters with no chance of being found or stopped. Carriers can not cloak and have fighters out.
PCX339 Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.05 18:38:00 - [54] Originally by: Aertuun Edited by: Aertuun on 05/11/2006 14:04:52 Spent a few hours last night working out how signal strength was calculated, with help from the beautiful assistants wapacz and Gli Liphon. Signal strength is the percentage chance a ship within your probe's range will be found. It also is used in determining result inaccuracy. Signal strength = (Signature radius of ship * Probe sensor strength * Ship Distance from probe (as a % of probe range)) divided by (Ship Sensor Strength * 100) So for a Raven being found with a Snoop probe at negligible range from the probe: Signal = (460 * 20 * 1.00 ) / (22 * 100) = 4.18 Thank you for the excellent info. I wonder, has anyone tried ECCM with this yet? My account isn't active on SiSi (no, I've never let it lapse), so I can't test it myself. If ECCM/Sensor backup arrays make it harder for people to probe you out, that might be a neat little additional factor to consider for covert work.
Makhan	Posted - 2006.11.05 19:24:00 - [55] It's been asked before but I'll ask again, are deadspace signatures supposted to be ultrarare? And where are they anyway?
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.05 20:21:00 - [56] Originally by: PCX339 Thank you for the excellent info. I wonder, has anyone tried ECCM with this yet? My account isn't active on SiSi (no, I've never let it lapse), so I can't test it myself. If ECCM/Sensor backup arrays make it harder for people to probe you out, that might be a neat little additional factor to consider for covert work. ECCM modules were used during the tests: Doubling your ECCM makes you twice as hard to probe. One of the best named ECCM module or a tech II module is enough to do that.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.05 20:44:00 - [57] Did some work on distances. Looked at the signal strength at 0 range, then went gradually further away, testing with several different probe types. For an object at the maximum range of a probe (10AU for a 10AU probe), lowest possible signal strength return is 35%. Any object closer than 35% of the probe's range (say 3.5AU for a 10AU probe), will give a signal strength return of 90+%. Have put a graph together plotting all the data points. Will try to work out what equation it follows over the next few days. The line is not linear, but does seem to follow an equation.
PCX339 Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.05 21:17:00 - [58] Originally by: Aertuun The line is not linear, but does seem to follow an equation. Maybe it won't help, maybe it will: the EVE coders seem to really like the inverse hyperbolic sine (ASINH() in Excel). I can see why they like it: it gives a nice sigmoidal response that allows for a real difference between the top and bottom end, it's well behaved, and it's easy to code. Just in case it helps :)
The Enslaver Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.05 23:36:00 - [59] Originally by: Makhan It's been asked before but I'll ask again, are deadspace signatures supposted to be ultrarare? And where are they anyway? I also need to know this. I have scanned 15 or so systems and nothing, and I was under the belief that it was planned for multiple per system; with the best being ultrarare... Either the system is ******, it hasn't been put in yet, or it is another dissapointing letdown on the side of CCP -------- It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Dahin Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.05 23:59:00 - [60] Originally by: Llyando Autora Not sure if this is the right place for this but nm here goes... I will start by saying that I am quite capable of using scan probes on TQ, I have the skills, Astrometrics 2, Science is at 5 so that is not an issue and basically any other skill needed on TQ, I have. On SiSi I can launch a 5AU probe from either the recon or scan probe launcher, I go to my scanner and select the probe, try to select a group to scan for... and can't. It will not let me select a group, I click on a group but unlike TQ it does not highlight my selection. I click the analyse button and nothing happens (although the notice saying that I must select one group is still present at the top of the scanner). I have tried all sorts of random combinations of the above, from lauching 3 seperate scan probes in 3 locations, selcting all of them and continuing, different sequences of selecting probes, and destroying my current probe and starting again. Nothing seems to help. Anyone else had this problem or is it just me? (And if this isnt the place for this post could someone direct me to the correct spot?) Thanks, Llyando Autora Relog, I had the same thing and relogging fixed it. You should get a solding selection from the type menu. Now if I could only manage to get on the testserver to test more. I like eve and all, but I won't wait 2hrs in a line to test someones work for free What I am most considered about the new stats is the effect they will have in the game. It may sound cool and everything, but I'm afraid that if they are as powerfull and easy to use as I think they are, your buddylist icons will start flashing everytime someone organizes a slight blob. Getting caught in less than a minute tends to make people nervous and that ctrl+q combination too easy to hit. If this was accompanied with a ship permanence in hostile space, it'd be a statement.

Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.06 00:04:00 - [61] Originally by: Makhan It's been asked before but I'll ask again, are deadspace signatures supposted to be ultrarare? And where are they anyway? My experiences: 1) One deadspace signature in a 0.0 COSMOS-constellation, which lead me to a COSMOS-site with several agents. I first saw the site on directional scanner, than scanned for it and got it on the first try (but can¦t remember which probe). 2) Several other deadspace-signatures on directional scanner in 0.0 COSMOS constellations. No success with probing them. Used several probes, scanned many times. 3) One deadspace-signature in a normal 0.0 NPC-claimed system on directional scanner. No success with probing it. I havn¦t found any other deadspace-signature.
Makhan	Posted - 2006.11.06 00:09:00 - [62] Originally by: Helison Originally by: Makhan It's been asked before but I'll ask again, are deadspace signatures supposted to be ultrarare? And where are they anyway? My experiences: 1) One deadspace signature in a 0.0 COSMOS-constellation, which lead me to a COSMOS-site with several agents. I first saw the site on directional scanner, than scanned for it and got it on the first try (but can¦t remember which probe). 2) Several other deadspace-signatures on directional scanner in 0.0 COSMOS constellations. No success with probing them. Used several probes, scanned many times. 3) One deadspace-signature in a normal 0.0 NPC-claimed system on directional scanner. No success with probing it. I havn¦t found any other deadspace-signature. So what you're saying is... They are only in 0.0? Oh god.
Brolly Caldari The Department of Justice	Posted - 2006.11.06 03:14:00 - [63] What skills reduce the time required to get info, atm it's taking 320 seconds with astrometrics at 4 and signal acquisition at 1 using the first load of probes which came out and I'm flying a cheetah. Are they normally this slow? If I had ú1 for every intelligent comment posted in general discussion, I'd be hideously in debt
Sunaria	Posted - 2006.11.06 09:21:00 - [64] Originally by: Helison Originally by: Makhan It's been asked before but I'll ask again, are deadspace signatures supposted to be ultrarare? And where are they anyway? My experiences: 1) One deadspace signature in a 0.0 COSMOS-constellation, which lead me to a COSMOS-site with several agents. I first saw the site on directional scanner, than scanned for it and got it on the first try (but can¦t remember which probe). 2) Several other deadspace-signatures on directional scanner in 0.0 COSMOS constellations. No success with probing them. Used several probes, scanned many times. 3) One deadspace-signature in a normal 0.0 NPC-claimed system on directional scanner. No success with probing it. I havn¦t found any other deadspace-signature. What I think happend is that he didn't had the deadspace-signatures enabled in overview, cause each COSMOS constelation allready has complexes in it that are visible to all. Fly to an empire COSMOSS const. if you think I'm wrong
Xcom Gallente Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:27:00 - [65] Originally by: Aertuun Edited by: Aertuun on 05/11/2006 14:04:52 Spent a few hours last night working out how signal strength was calculated, with help from the beautiful assistants wapacz and Gli Liphon. Signal strength is the percentage chance a ship within your probe's range will be found. It also is used in determining result inaccuracy. Signal strength = (Signature radius of ship * Probe sensor strength * Ship Distance from probe (as a % of probe range)) divided by (Ship Sensor Strength * 100) So for a Raven being found with a Snoop probe at negligible range from the probe: Signal = (460 * 20 * 1.00 ) / (22 * 100) = 4.18 Currently unsure about: How the probe's range is converted into a percentage. At 9.77 AU range on a 10 AU probe, signal strength is reduced by 0.1895 (18.9%). It's possible there's a rock bottom of 15-16% signal strength exists for absolute max range. Also unsure how it scales between the two values (from zero range to max range). May do some tests today on that. Can you pleas explain what you describe here. Signal = (460 * 20 * 1.00 ) / (22 * 100) = 4.18 1. What is 4.18? ItÆs just a number. Please describe what it means. 2. How does that affect the percentage of finding an object? 3. How does it affect the distance you will end up from the target after warping to it?
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:47:00 - [66] Originally by: Xcom Can you pleas explain what you describe here. Signal = (460 * 20 * 1.00 ) / (22 * 100) = 4.18 1. What is 4.18? ItÆs just a number. Please describe what it means. 2. How does that affect the percentage of finding an object? 3. How does it affect the distance you will end up from the target after warping to it? From what I understand 4.18 is the chance to find the target and the range you will end up from it. More than 1 = 100% chance and you can warp in at 0km. At 0.5 you would have 50% chance, not sure at the distance but probably around 50% of max deviation for that probe.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:19:00 - [67] Edited by: Helison on 06/11/2006 12:19:38 Originally by: Sunaria Originally by: Helison Originally by: Makhan It's been asked before but I'll ask again, are deadspace signatures supposted to be ultrarare? And where are they anyway? My experiences: 1) One deadspace signature in a 0.0 COSMOS-constellation, which lead me to a COSMOS-site with several agents. I first saw the site on directional scanner, than scanned for it and got it on the first try (but can¦t remember which probe). 2) Several other deadspace-signatures on directional scanner in 0.0 COSMOS constellations. No success with probing them. Used several probes, scanned many times. 3) One deadspace-signature in a normal 0.0 NPC-claimed system on directional scanner. No success with probing it. I havn¦t found any other deadspace-signature. What I think happend is that he didn't had the deadspace-signatures enabled in overview, cause each COSMOS constelation allready has complexes in it that are visible to all. Fly to an empire COSMOSS const. if you think I'm wrong I havn¦t checked any empire COSMOS const, so no warpable deadspace-signatures. I was only flying through a few low-sec systems and many 0.0 systems (but not the new regions).
Monty Burns	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:40:00 - [68] Perleeeeassse!!!! I beg of you, leave the ranges in the probe title (and add it for the new ones). Makes zero diference to the game except making it less annoying when buying them Darwin 4tw
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:11:00 - [69] Edited by: Aertuun on 06/11/2006 14:12:58 Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Xcom Can you pleas explain what you describe here. Signal = (460 * 20 * 1.00 ) / (22 * 100) = 4.18 1. What is 4.18? ItÆs just a number. Please describe what it means. 2. How does that affect the percentage of finding an object? 3. How does it affect the distance you will end up from the target after warping to it? From what I understand 4.18 is the chance to find the target and the range you will end up from it. More than 1 = 100% chance and you can warp in at 0km. Yes, this is the right interpretation. The reason "divide by 100" is in the formula above is to convert the percentage into what you see in game. Quote: At 0.5 you would have 50% chance, not sure at the distance but probably around 50% of max deviation for that probe. 0.5 is 50%, but what effects the inaccuracy of a result is currently unknown. What we do know is that greater than 1.0 signal strength = 0km inaccuracy. We also know the inaccuracy of probe results vary from scan to scan. We also don't know for sure how the distance works, in terms of the distance between the ship and the probe. At zero range, there is no effect on signal strength due to range (signal is "full" or 100%). At max range of probe, I'm fairly sure signal strength is reduced to 35% of what it otherwise would be (this has been updated from the post before, where I thought max range = 16% due to mixing up results). In between, I think, based on what a poster said before, can be worked out with: Effect on signal strength due to range is based around sin(x), where x is the percentage of the probe's range. Will test this once home.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:40:00 - [70] I know this will make me sound like an idiot, but could someone provide a step-by-step how you actually use probes these days? I tried it last night but was unable to do anything. I assume this was because: 1. I don't know what I was doing OR 2. I was bugged It would help to know which one it was. Raptor and Ares Fix

Cinnamon Red Euphoria and Co.	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:03:00 - [71] Originally by: Llyando Autora Not sure if this is the right place for this but nm here goes... I will start by saying that I am quite capable of using scan probes on TQ, I have the skills, Astrometrics 2, Science is at 5 so that is not an issue and basically any other skill needed on TQ, I have. On SiSi I can launch a 5AU probe from either the recon or scan probe launcher, I go to my scanner and select the probe, try to select a group to scan for... and can't. It will not let me select a group, I click on a group but unlike TQ it does not highlight my selection. I click the analyse button and nothing happens (although the notice saying that I must select one group is still present at the top of the scanner). I have tried all sorts of random combinations of the above, from lauching 3 seperate scan probes in 3 locations, selcting all of them and continuing, different sequences of selecting probes, and destroying my current probe and starting again. Nothing seems to help. Anyone else had this problem or is it just me? (And if this isnt the place for this post could someone direct me to the correct spot?) Thanks, Llyando Autora I am still having precisely this problem myself. No matter what probe and launcher I try, I can't select a scanning group. I've tried each time I've been on the test server (about four or five times now) and it's failing to work every time. Any update from a dev about what's up and how the fix is going please?
Llyando Autora The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.06 20:24:00 - [72] Just to add fun to the mix... Scan probes now work for me, I have no idea why, I just logged on today and they worked. BTW the new scanning system is amazing and I love it :) Thanks for the suggestions and good luck to people still trying, Llyando
dizzycow	Posted - 2006.11.06 22:38:00 - [73] I have been trying to find a hidden complex I know the location from before. I have used snoop scanners but Im unsure if they even can find complexes. so what configuration should I use drone & probe scrap ship cosmic signature or structure? been trying to scan now for 4 hours with out luck (600sec each scan! ) and I have been 0,3 au from the target not found one bit are there any ting Im doing wrong?
Brolly Caldari The Department of Justice	Posted - 2006.11.07 01:59:00 - [74] Edited by: Brolly on 07/11/2006 01:59:29 /me has a cunning plan I actually put together something for my corps forums, just a quick and dirty 'how I did it, i'll post again here incase it becomes useful. ***** First off, here we have the system scanner pannel Lets launch us a probe, note, only 1 probe is required now instead of 3 (I have used a single probe and managed to get results, please correct me if my methodology is wrong) NOTE** Before trying to scan with your probe, wait for your probe launcher to de-activate, also, set it to manual. We now want to select what we want to scan for. We can select one group for every level of astrometris is trained (yes, I only have it trained to 4) Once done, select our probe and select analyze now to play the waiting game Woohoo!, we have stuff! By opening system map we can see where everything is If I had ú1 for every intelligent comment posted in general discussion, I'd be hideously in debt
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2006.11.07 05:34:00 - [75] What is needed is a corelative selection between scanner results and system map blip displays, ergo: John pops out a probe, runs scan whilst switching into system view, receives overlay of results in system view, rolls mouse over scan result in scanner window and/or selects it, corresponding with a blip on system map that lights up a shade brighter accordingly.
wapacz Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 05:43:00 - [76] For those of you having problem selecting a a type to scan, may want to try deleting your macho net folder. This solved the problem when I was having it.
Moonaru Izu	Posted - 2006.11.07 08:14:00 - [77] Originally by: Brolly By opening system map we can see where everything is Nice overview of how to scan. I've been on it also for a few days and for some reason I have a very hard time to warp to Ibis classed ships. Others seem to be fine, i.e. I jump "in there face" whenver the accuracy is below 100km but for Ibis I always end up in Limbo..nothing there after jump. Even with an accuracy of 0km. I wonder if you are able to do this succesfully, seeing as you have an Ibis on your scan results aswell. Otherwise the Ibis class might become the new Covert Ops
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.07 11:05:00 - [78] Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo What is needed is a corelative selection between scanner results and system map blip displays, ergo: John pops out a probe, runs scan whilst switching into system view, receives overlay of results in system view, rolls mouse over scan result in scanner window and/or selects it, corresponding with a blip on system map that lights up a shade brighter accordingly. You should be able to extrapolate which result is which given that the systemmap lets you know type and distance; this change would make life a mite easier but the functionality's basically already there. Also, I don't recommend using snoops to look for cosmic signatures, they don't have the power.
Sunaria	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:33:00 - [79] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Also, I don't recommend using snoops to look for cosmic signatures, they don't have the power. what do you recommend then ?
Dahin Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.07 12:54:00 - [80] I'm repeating my tests for the apparent extreme accuracy currently on the probes. I have just launched an observator probe 13-20au away from the pvp areas in FD- (p9). Scanned for ships and I got the following results: 1 Drake with 0m deviation 2 frig/cruiser with 200-500km deviation 3 dread/bs with 1-3k km deviation 5 bc/bs with 7-9k km deviation The average of those numbers is about 3.000 kilometers. The average of those numbers in the curren system is (95au/2)7.125.000.000 kilometers That's a 2.375.000x boost over the old ones The numbers seem very wrong, quite possibly mistaken entries. I would appreciate the GM's placing ships in random far-off supersafes (from like 30 au off the system up to 1.000 au's off) so people can try this? In FD-MLJ that is. Mebbe place a can directing people not to move those ships since they are for test purposes? I tried bugging the color-lettered person in local but he was too buys :/

Nemtar Nataal	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:05:00 - [81] ....................ohhh mighty CCP please let me complet just a single scan .............................. I might just be daft....but are a single scan with a probe suppose to out last the lifetime of your probes? (As you can properly figure i can quait confirm if the scanning system workes because i havent had a succesfull scan yet....) BTW the thing about deleting the MacroNET folder workes like a charm...problem solved...as i wasnt able to sellect a category to scan in before. If anyone wonders im using a Heroi (lvl5 frigate) and i have 5 survay and 5 astrometrics....and well if a scan with my current skills out last the life time of a probe i can only imagin how many porblems other players might have testing the scanning features of kali. Well your are most welcom to try and tell me what im doing wrong
Moonaru Izu	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:27:00 - [82] Originally by: Nemtar Nataal ....................ohhh mighty CCP Well your are most welcom to try and tell me what im doing wrong You are most likely using the wrong probe launcher for what you are trying to achieve. Make sure that you use the Recon Probe Launcher
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.07 14:39:00 - [83] Originally by: Sunaria Originally by: Joerd Toastius Also, I don't recommend using snoops to look for cosmic signatures, they don't have the power. what do you recommend then ? Sift probe + scan probe launcher + covops + covops skill 4 + signal acquisition skill 3. Only way to get a reliable result.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.07 17:08:00 - [84] Originally by: Dahin Edited by: Dahin on 07/11/2006 13:03:28 Edited by: Dahin on 07/11/2006 13:02:37 I'm repeating my tests for the apparent extreme accuracy currently on the probes. I have just launched an observator probe 13-20au away from the pvp areas in FD- (p9). Scanned for ships and I got the following results: 1 Drake with 0m deviation 2 frig/cruiser with 200-500km deviation 3 dread/bs with 1-3k km deviation 5 bc/bs with 7-9k km deviation The average of those numbers is about 3.000 kilometers. The average of those numbers in the curren system is (95au/2)7.125.000.000 kilometers That's a 2.375.000x boost over the old ones One can argue that there should be a nerf in the result deviation rather than a boost. Getting a result 50au off the target today doesn't mean much, but with the kali system a 50 au result is a major step ahead. One should expect to see a min<->max deviation on the observator based on the 192au probe stats. I don't remember the new stat on this probe, but a 50 au average deviation sounds reasonable, with mebbe as minimum the maximum range of the 48 au probes. So a lucky or highly skilled prober can skip one step of the scanning probes under the new system. If you check the stats the oberservetor probe now has a max scan deviation of just 10.000 km. But it only have 1 sensor strenght so you might have to probe a several (10-20) times before you find the target. Only the sensor specifik probes have max scan deviation which is counted in AUs and even there it's around 6au at most.
Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:29:00 - [85] I wonder if it would be possible for launched probes to be used by gang members having the proper skills? It would give "recon squad" a whole new meaning. - Got grief?
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 00:51:00 - [86] Someone good with math who wants to take a shot at making a function for signal strength/range? Currently too tired to even think how I should start and was too long ago I did stuff like this that I think I forgotten how to :) Anyway here is my test data: 0 2.12 3.08 5.27 7.39 8.92 11.19 14.19 15.65 17.92 20.99 23.19 23.99 26.26 28.46 30.73 32.26 33.73 36.73 38.99 40 1 0.997 0.994 0.983 0.966 0.951 0.925 0.881 0.858 0.818 0.759 0.714 0.698 0.650 0.603 0.554 0.522 0.491 0.430 0.386 0.350 First row is range from probe to ship in AU, max range of the probe is 40AU. Second row is how much Signal Strength is left at that range (1=100%, 0.35=35). My first thought is -x*log(x) but might be completely wrong.
wapacz Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.08 07:05:00 - [87] Originally by: Nemtar Nataal ....................ohhh mighty CCP please let me complet just a single scan .............................. I might just be daft....but are a single scan with a probe suppose to out last the lifetime of your probes? (As you can properly figure i can quait confirm if the scanning system workes because i havent had a succesfull scan yet....) BTW the thing about deleting the MacroNET folder workes like a charm...problem solved...as i wasnt able to sellect a category to scan in before. If anyone wonders im using a Heroi (lvl5 frigate) and i have 5 survay and 5 astrometrics....and well if a scan with my current skills out last the life time of a probe i can only imagin how many porblems other players might have testing the scanning features of kali. Well your are most welcom to try and tell me what im doing wrong Try the recon launcher. It has a smaller size so can't fit the new bigger probes but it cuts down the scan time of a snopes to 2 minutes on a ship with no bonuses.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.08 13:39:00 - [88] Originally by: Hoshi Someone good with math who wants to take a shot at making a function for signal strength/range? Currently too tired to even think how I should start and was too long ago I did stuff like this that I think I forgotten how to :) Anyway here is my test data: 0 2.12 3.08 5.27 7.39 8.92 11.19 14.19 15.65 17.92 20.99 23.19 23.99 26.26 28.46 30.73 32.26 33.73 36.73 38.99 40 1 0.997 0.994 0.983 0.966 0.951 0.925 0.881 0.858 0.818 0.759 0.714 0.698 0.650 0.603 0.554 0.522 0.491 0.430 0.386 0.350 First row is range from probe to ship in AU, max range of the probe is 40AU. Second row is how much Signal Strength is left at that range (1=100%, 0.35=35). My first thought is -x*log(x) but might be completely wrong. A quite good fit (but not perfect) for this would be 1-(x/1.3)^1.6, where x is actual range / max range. But I would need a few datapoints for above 40AU so I can check if the exponential function is behaving ok.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 16:17:00 - [89] Originally by: Helison A quite good fit (but not perfect) for this would be 1-(x/1.3)^1.6, where x is actual range / max range. But I would need a few datapoints for above 40AU so I can check if the exponential function is behaving ok. Not possible, it's hard limited at max probe range (40au for that probe), if you have a target at 40.1 AU the probe won't find it.
Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.08 17:53:00 - [90] Originally by: Helison Originally by: Hoshi Someone good with math who wants to take a shot at making a function for signal strength/range? Currently too tired to even think how I should start and was too long ago I did stuff like this that I think I forgotten how to :) Anyway here is my test data: 0 2.12 3.08 5.27 7.39 8.92 11.19 14.19 15.65 17.92 20.99 23.19 23.99 26.26 28.46 30.73 32.26 33.73 36.73 38.99 40 1 0.997 0.994 0.983 0.966 0.951 0.925 0.881 0.858 0.818 0.759 0.714 0.698 0.650 0.603 0.554 0.522 0.491 0.430 0.386 0.350 First row is range from probe to ship in AU, max range of the probe is 40AU. Second row is how much Signal Strength is left at that range (1=100%, 0.35=35). My first thought is -x*log(x) but might be completely wrong. A quite good fit (but not perfect) for this would be 1-(x/1.3)^1.6, where x is actual range / max range. But I would need a few datapoints for above 40AU so I can check if the exponential function is behaving ok. Is signal strength flat per probe type, or is it modified by skills? - Got grief?

Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 18:16:00 - [91] Originally by: Andargor theWise Is signal strength flat per probe type, or is it modified by skills? Modified by skills, target sensor strength, signature radius and range. We already have the formula for all the rest, just the range part that was missing. Take a look earlier in this t thread. The values I posted above has been modified to only take range range into account.
Donna Darko	Posted - 2006.11.08 21:42:00 - [92] With the patch in use today (2.14.26961) and Covert Ops 5, Astrometrics 5 and Survey 5, I launched an Observator and scanned for everything. I found probes, shuttles, one tier 1 industrial, and nothing else. Also in space, there were battleships, frigates, a cruiser, and possibly other ships. Is this because Observator has a 1 Gravimetric (and the rest) strength? Shouldn't it have something like 100? Or is this scan probe not affected? I also used 1 Snoop probe to analyze - I'm a bit confused, do we need 3 as the Show Info still says, or 1? In any case, I found nothing at all with it, mainly because its life span is 4 minutes 30 seconds and it takes me (with above mentioned skills) 300 seconds (or 5 minutes) to scan. Stories.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 22:27:00 - [93] Edited by: Hoshi on 08/11/2006 22:44:32 Edited by: Hoshi on 08/11/2006 22:39:29 Originally by: Helison A quite good fit (but not perfect) for this would be 1-(x/1.3)^1.6, where x is actual range / max range. But I would need a few datapoints for above 40AU so I can check if the exponential function is behaving ok. Hmm try this for a fit: 1-0.65x^1.5 Seems to fit nicely and is a very clean formula. 0.65 makes sure that x = 1 give 0.35 and 1.5 seem to give the correct slope. That would make the final formula like this: *Signal Strength = (Probe Strength (1-(0.65 * Target Range / Max Range)^1.5) * Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength) / 100 Multiply Signal strength with 100 (or leave out "/ 100" from the above formula) to get % chance to find the target in each scan, more than 100% chance would mean it always succeed and also means 0km scan deviation. For example scanning for a Scorpion sitting 25 au away using a Ferret probe (strength 2, max range 40) would give: 2 * (1-(0.65 * 25/40)^1.5) * 480/24 = 29.64%** chance of success (so avg 3-4 scans before finding it). If you have the new probe sensor strength skill at level 5 it would be 37.05% chance instead. Now we just need to figure out scan deviation.
Donna Darko	Posted - 2006.11.08 23:18:00 - [94] Why is it necessary to only allow 1 scan probe to be fitted on the ship? On a covert ops you would only have one onlined at any moment, because of the CPU requirements. Stories.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 23:32:00 - [95] Originally by: Donna Darko Why is it necessary to only allow 1 scan probe to be fittesd on the ship? On a covert ops you would only have one onlined at any moment, because of the CPU requirements. It's worse than that, if you have 1 online and 1 offline and offline the first one you won't be able to online the second one as it now uses 220000 cpu. I would guess on 2 reasons. 1. You can exploit it, have Scan probe launcher I online, launch a sensor specific probe, take it offline and online the recon launcher, scan. The scan will now only take 30-60 sec instead of 300-600 sec. 2. CCP don't want us to use the sensor specific proobes to search for ship in combat situations, they are so high sensor strength that they will always find the target and give 0m scan deviation. This makes them a bit overpowered. While you still can use them for this now you need to make a sacrifice as you won't be able to get short scan time with the other probes. Note that they have changed the probe launcher description include this: "Only one probe launcher can be fitted per ship"
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.09 00:22:00 - [96] Although "short" is still relative - yes, there's a ten minute base cycle, but with maxed skills you can run a racial probe in two and a half minutes, which will pretty much find everything bigger than a spent 1400mm round* within 64AU, give or take. *May not be strictly true. Also, from what I've read, deviation is based on signal strength but with a random multiplier, so it's not going to drop out exactly.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:32:00 - [97] Currently known probing bugs. Ferret Scan Probe I show as having 2 points strength but in reality have 2.5 points. Most likely a rounding error in the client. Bug reported. All probe results shown on the system map point to the same place (which seems to be a random result) when you try to warp to them. The result list works fine just the map that is bugged. Bug reported. The probe sphere as displayed on the system map is often positioned wrong after warping. This makes it hard to to place and use several probes at the same time. Not bug reported yet as I have a hard time to reproduce it accurately. If anyone wants to try to reproduce it and bug report it be my guest. A few strange behaviors of the scanning gui but they seem to be mostly lag related and not real bugs. Not bug reported. Due to the probe sphere bug and the fact that BMs stop working once you relog I have not done any real testing with several probes. The one test I did run returned all results that was in any of the bubble not just the intersection, those in the intersection just had much higher signal strength (0.94 instead of 0.45). It also seemed to have a slight effect on stuff on results only inside 1 bubble. Results that got 1.0 strength with just 1 bubble got only 0.99 when 2 where used.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.09 11:57:00 - [98] Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 09/11/2006 12:02:29 Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 09/11/2006 12:02:13 Originally by: Hoshi The one test I did run returned all results that was in any of the bubble not just the intersection, those in the intersection just had much higher signal strength (0.94 instead of 0.45). I think this is intended functionality.] Also, the bubble-movement thing just seems to be part of the general problem with the system map, namely that non-celestial graphics - jump lines, bubbles, part of the sun graphic etc - all move along with the "you are here" arrow when you warp. This does make the rendered bubbles pretty but useless, and I assume this'll be fixed by launch because it's a pretty glaring error as it stands. {edit} The problem with multi-probe drops is finding cases where they're actually viable, particularly with the longer-range probes. A lot depends on the exact positioning of celestials, particularly if you want to avoid spending all day making safes to probe from. Need to find/look at the math for two overlapping weaker probes vs one strong etc, I guess...
Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.09 13:45:00 - [99] Originally by: Hoshi The probe sphere as displayed on the system map is often positioned wrong after warping. This makes it hard to to place and use several probes at the same time. Not bug reported yet as I have a hard time to reproduce it accurately. If anyone wants to try to reproduce it and bug report it be my guest. I reported it once with pictures but its hard to describe what exactly happens. Another Bug I didnt report yet: If I close the scanner window before a scan is finished and open it again I only see the "group/scanprobe" selection screen but cant do anything there. On another note: Did anyone here find one of the new "explorable content" space signature things? No matter what kind of exploration probe I use I always end up with empty hands...
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.09 13:53:00 - [100] As above the bubble rendering issue seems to be just that they remain stationary in relation to the "you are here" sign when you warp. It seems that the map treats all non-celestials this way, which is a problem. Guess it would be useful if it does the same with gangmates shown in space. Interestingly though scan results do stay properly stationary. And yes, the exploration sites are in and work fine, I've found a couple of plexes, an archaeological site, a couple of drone sites and a gas cloud so far. You just gotta figure out where to look and then have some patience...

Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:42:00 - [101] Cool thanks
Rob Stark Serenity and Unicum Hungarian Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.09 16:37:00 - [102] Wonder if anyone else experiencing the same: when trying to warp to a scan result by right clikcing on the spots in the system map, my ship warps to another result. The system map isn't perfect yet :)
Donna Darko	Posted - 2006.11.09 21:34:00 - [103] Why is it that the scan probes that we had before have 0.4 m3 volume, while the race specific probes have 5 m3? This means I need to take a very limited number of race specific probes, making the covert ops (the ship best suited for this type of job) very impractical as a scavenger. I understand they have different volumes to make it impossible to fit the race specific probes in the recon launcher, but wouldn't it make more sense to have the race specific probes mesure 0.5 m3 and the recon probe launcher have a capacity of 0.4 m3, meaning only 1 probe fitted at one time? I think it takes us more than 10 seconds to warp from one place to another, especially when counting we can't deploy one probe in another's scan area - which in turn means by the time we get to the place we want to drop the new probe, the reload is finished. I seriously despise the idea an INDUSTRIAL ship is needed to scan large areas of space only because they have a huge cargo space. Stories.
Irrilian Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2006.11.10 20:22:00 - [104] Feh, I know that some one has probably put a lot of time into devising, coding and testing the new system, to resolve a lot of the bugs and inconstancies of the way things worked previously. Thus I dont want to sound ungrateful, but apart from a few fixes like 3d probes and cloaked ship probing, I prefer how things work on TQ. The main attraction of scan probing for me was that while there was certainly not insignificant character skills required, your success was actually dependent on player skill, a combination of spatial awareness, math and hunting. It was the puzzle, the challenge of hunting someone down that made the entire process interesting, something that seems to be lacking with the new system.
Dahin Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.10 23:50:00 - [105] Originally by: Irrilian Feh, I know that some one has probably put a lot of time into devising, coding and testing the new system, to resolve a lot of the bugs and inconstancies of the way things worked previously. Thus I dont want to sound ungrateful, but apart from a few fixes like 3d probes and cloaked ship probing, I prefer how things work on TQ. The main attraction of scan probing for me was that while there was certainly not insignificant character skills required, your success was actually dependent on player skill, a combination of spatial awareness, math and hunting. It was the puzzle, the challenge of hunting someone down that made the entire process interesting, something that seems to be lacking with the new system. <3 I feel exactly the same. The current style is extremily engaging and an 99% mental game. In kali, according to the things I've seen it's 75% skillpoints, 20% luck 5% skill (basic orientation in space and scanner). When this comes to pass, it'll be the second time I will be spanked out of my specialty for a 2nd content patch in a row. I may sound like a whiny *****, but seeing my work for over a year being rendered obsolete makes me a sad panda. Anyway, back to the thing. The observator seriously need to get looked at. It needs the deviation result nerfed by about 4.000 times. Otherwise there will be no possibility of two fleets coexisting in the same solarsystem (bar pos hugging). The blob will always get you in 30 seconds because at least 4-5 of the hostile battleships will show up on the 20-sec scan. And that is nothing but the beggining of the changes the current stats will bring. Oh, haven't rechecked the stats in the past 3 days, so I may be rambling about old news.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.11 01:09:00 - [106] Originally by: Dahin The observator seriously need to get looked at. It needs the deviation result nerfed by about 4.000 times. Otherwise there will be no possibility of two fleets coexisting in the same solarsystem (bar pos hugging). The blob will always get you in 30 seconds because at least 4-5 of the hostile battleships will show up on the 20-sec scan. A battleship only have around 0.2-0.3 signal strength then using observetor probes. Enough for at least 4-5 battleships to show up as you say but not enough to get any of those with less than 500km scan deviation (same grid) unless you are very lucky. Have not worked out how scan deviation is calculated yet but it seems to end up around 5.000-10.000km avg with that signal strength. So you need to drop a second probe which can be seen etc or you need to keep scanning for a long time before you get a result close enough. I don't see observetors as a problem; what is a problem is the sensor specific ones. They been nerfed a bit now (down from 192 to 64 au max) but they still have such high sensor strength that you will get an effective signal strength above 1 which means 0m scan deviation.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.11 09:45:00 - [107] What the Kali changes are basically going to do is bring more gate camps, because you're going to have to wait in the next system until you're ready to engage, I guess. That or sit at a POS, because as it stands I can find any ship within 64AU within three minutes. As to the lack of skill thing, yes, to a degree this is true, and I'm not entirely happy with it, but it's not that bad, IMO. That's not a final opinion though.
Dutarro Kydance Radiant Industries Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.11 11:48:00 - [108] There's a possible bit of explorable content on Singularity in HED-GP, an object of type "LCO Minmatar Lookout" named "You've found an N". With the old-fashioned directional scan we determined that it's about 20,000 km from the outpost that's built there. However, I was totally unable to lock it with scan probes, even using a Ladar Sift probe while sitting right by the outpost. At 20,000 km using the highest accuracy probe of the appropriate racial type, it should be a cinch to scan the thing shouldn't it? I really think the new scan probes are bugged when it comes to structures and cosmic signatures. Oh also there is a thing called an "Ultra Fast Control Tower" in the same system, which I did manage to lock with scan probes but only to within 0.8AU so I never got to see it. And also directional scan finds a "Deadspace Signature" which does NOT have a beacon, which seems to be exactly what exploration is all about. Again, though, I wasn't able to lock it with any scan probes. Anyone with more patience/skill have better results there? ------------------------ *opinions stated are not necessarily those of my corporation or alliance
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.11 12:57:00 - [109] Originally by: Dutarro There's a possible bit of explorable content on Singularity in HED-GP, an object of type "LCO Minmatar Lookout" named "You've found an N". Wasn't that from that contest Burn Eden won? There where clues that pointed to systems where you found those letters ("N" in this case) and you were supposed to make some eve related word with them.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.11 22:51:00 - [110] Yeah, the N is a defunct thing from the treasure hunt thing. The thing you're looking for is, as surmised, the Deadspace Signature. The sig strength for a cosmic signature, even at point blank (50k or so) range with sifts is generally 0.3 at best, so you just need to grind it currently :(

Sarthas Nohshayess	Posted - 2006.11.11 23:41:00 - [111] Edited by: Sarthas Nohshayess on 11/11/2006 23:44:03 Oops posted with wrong character ... deleted
Dutarro Kydance Radiant Industries Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.11 23:44:00 - [112] Edited by: Sarthas Nohshayess on 11/11/2006 23:43:18 Originally by: Hoshi ...That would make the final formula like this: *Signal Strength = (Probe Strength (1-(0.65 * ((Target Range / Max Range)^1.5))) * Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength) / 100*... Nice Analysis. So you could look at the total probability of the probe locking a target as the product of three independent factors: Plock = Fprobe Ftarget * Frange Fprobe = (probe strength) / 100 Ftarget = (target sig radius) / (target sensor strength) Frange = 1 - 0.65 * (target range / max range)^1.5 Presumably if (Plock > 1), the lock is automatic. Now what about the race-specific probes looking for race-specific ships? For example let's say you look for a Megathron with a Gravimetric Sift probe ... Mega's gravimetric sensor strength is zero, so is it totally undetectable with that probe? ------------------------ *opinions stated are not necessarily those of my corporation or alliance
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.12 01:36:00 - [113] Edited by: Helison on 12/11/2006 01:36:56 Originally by: Dutarro [snip] Presumably if (Plock > 1), the lock is automatic. Now what about the race-specific probes looking for race-specific ships? For example let's say you look for a Megathron with a Gravimetric Sift probe ... Mega's gravimetric sensor strength is zero, so is it totally undetectable with that probe? The Gravimetric Sift probe has a gravimetric sensor strength of 1000 and a sensor strenght of 200 for the other three types (including magnetometric). As the megathron has only a magnetometric sensor strenght, this one will be compared. So according to your nomenclature Ftarget would be 19 (400 sig, 21 sensor) and Fprobe would be 2. For close targets Plock would be 38, but the Sift probes aren¦t intended for ship-scanning anyway. BTW: Has anybody already tested if deadspace signatures have a special racial sensor strenght? I noticed for sure, that the sensor strength of different deadspace signatures is not the same. One deadspace signature had a Ftarget of 1, a second a Ftarget of 0.5 and a third a Ftarget of 0.1, assuming that I didn¦t use the correct racial probe-type (otherwise Ftarget should be multiplied with 5). There were also other signatures, but I wasn¦t able to lock them once. Normally I used Comb probes for my scans.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.12 03:46:00 - [114] Updated the sticky with the completed formula.
Dutarro Kydance Radiant Industries Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.12 05:23:00 - [115] Do any of the pirate faction ships have sensor strengths in multiple types? (Ashimmu, Nightmare, etc.) If so I wonder which one is used in the formula, or if it's some kind of average of them. ------------------------ *opinions stated are not necessarily those of my corporation or alliance
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.12 13:15:00 - [116] Originally by: Helison BTW: Has anybody already tested if deadspace signatures have a special racial sensor strenght? I noticed for sure, that the sensor strength of different deadspace signatures is not the same. One deadspace signature had a Ftarget of 1, a second a Ftarget of 0.5 and a third a Ftarget of 0.1, assuming that I didn¦t use the correct racial probe-type (otherwise Ftarget should be multiplied with 5). There were also other signatures, but I wasn¦t able to lock them once. Normally I used Comb probes for my scans. Are you sure you've been picking up variances in Ftarget and not Plock? I've been getting signal strengths all over the spectrum but, one set of inconclusive data aside, they all point to an identical Ftarget so far (around 0.11, IIRC).
Olivin Gallente Aquarium	Posted - 2006.11.12 17:22:00 - [117] Hi, Although I appreciate the effort of improving scanning and exploration , I must say that new scanning system blows big time. There are no skills involved anymore and whole process requires only sufficient amount of SP. I feel sad that my experience and knowledge will be nerfed by Kali patch. Olivin ---------------------------- WTB: Any character with high standings torwards pirate factions
Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.12 19:31:00 - [118] Just great... CCP changes an old, flawed, bad looking system into something great and useful just so people can start complaining even more.
Olivin Gallente Aquarium	Posted - 2006.11.12 22:22:00 - [119] Originally by: Amira Silvermist Just great... CCP changes an old, flawed, bad looking system into something great and useful just so people can start complaining even more. 1. Current scanning system is fine. It does requires little bit of brain usage, but that's a beauty of this. If you try hard you can find stuff. 2. New system is moron proof. You will need some SP, probe launcher and ability to click "Find stuff" button. Is that what you call a "great and useful"? Olivin ---------------------------- WTB: Any character with high standings torwards pirate factions
Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:07:00 - [120] Originally by: Olivin 1. Current scanning system is fine. It does requires little bit of brain usage, but that's a beauty of this. If you try hard you can find stuff. 2. New system is moron proof. You will need some SP, probe launcher and ability to click "Find stuff" button. Is that what you call a "great and useful"? So you think that dropping 3 probes in a triangle is "brain usage"? Yea, right... You can still use the directional scanner for finding people faster because its useless to scan for people with a weak probe and land 500 km away from them.

Olivin Gallente Aquarium	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:30:00 - [121] Originally by: Amira Silvermist Originally by: Olivin 1. Current scanning system is fine. It does requires little bit of brain usage, but that's a beauty of this. If you try hard you can find stuff. 2. New system is moron proof. You will need some SP, probe launcher and ability to click "Find stuff" button. Is that what you call a "great and useful"? So you think that dropping 3 probes in a triangle is "brain usage"? Yea, right... You can still use the directional scanner for finding people faster because its useless to scan for people with a weak probe and land 500 km away from them. It's not about "dropping 3 probes in a triangle" and you obviosly don't know much about it. And actually you don't need to drop probes in in a triangle. Olivin ---------------------------- WTB: Any character with high standings torwards pirate factions
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:40:00 - [122] Is this a step down in complexity? Yes but you have to look at it from how it fits in with the rest of the game. People are whining about how much hp change or t2 ammo change etc are going to change the game but missing the fact that the largest change to how warfare is down in eve is actually this probing change. No longer are you going to have 2 fleets sitting different safe spots boring each other out. Sit at the same SS for 10 min and even if it is a deep safe the enemy will have found you for sure. It's going to make sure that more combat actually happens and to me that change alone is worth the loss in complexity.
Schani Kratnorr Federal Volunteers Office	Posted - 2006.11.13 10:32:00 - [123] Old probing is an archane and mystical art, only a few master. Before probes, there was triangulation and careful use of midwarps to locate, and corner a target. With probes finding someone became easier, yet still cumbersome and somewhat buggy. The probes in KALI1 (Revelations) are much "cleaner" in design. We can discuss all we want, but I think most would agree that a change was needed. Finding someone is now up to combination of Skills, skill and luck since scanning also has an element of chance. Much like many other aspects of the game has changed since we started, finding someone, is now a specialist job. Any fleet commander without "scouts" will inevitably be forced into a defensive stance. In my eye, the mechanics of probes in Revelations, is near perfect. They are not a "win-button", but used right they can win the battle for you. They are less buggy. And with only a few minor adjustments they could be perfect. 1. A somewhat clearer way of correlating scanresults with the directional scanner (we want the "green cone" back please). 2. When closing the scanner (f11) and opening it again, the scan countdown should re-appear. 3. A clearer visual representation of the probe scan radius (the current "bubble" is very diffuse, and hard to spot on some systems). 4. T1 Scan probe BPOs seeded on the market please. -- Support democracy! - Because it has to work
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.13 10:56:00 - [124] Any fleet commander without scouts should be shot ;) And yeah, the impression I get is that we're losing the voodoo (which I'll miss), we're losing the difficulty in individual scans, but that's to some degree being compensated by the fact that you'll now be doing a lot more scanning and it will likely become even more time-sensitive than it is currently. I'm not entirely happy with the changes, but I'm not going to complain about them, because I think they're "OK". I'd like to keep some of the voodoo, but I can live comfortably with probes being more useful and more used even if they're less interesting than they were before.
Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.13 13:38:00 - [125] Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 13/11/2006 13:38:11 Originally by: Olivin It's not about "dropping 3 probes in a triangle" and you obviosly don't know much about it. And actually you don't need to drop probes in in a triangle. Olivin Yea, just because you have no clue and think that putting two probes at the same spot and a third one a few AUs away doesn't make it a triangle... Math ftw my friend But hey lets stop the bickering... You obviously posses a lot of l33tess so maybe you could step down and show off your skillz before people like me. Tell me the secret knowledge and feel good doing so... Its your last chance before everything will went into the gutter in a couple of weeks. Honestly, keep your act together. The new system might not need the "voodoo" and secret tricks you guys talk about but Schani Kratnorr summed it up quite nicely
DeMundus The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.11.13 22:22:00 - [126] Edited by: DeMundus on 13/11/2006 22:22:56 Argh scan for cloaked ships Pox on CCP... Now my "busniess" just got harder. Reason? Abandon all hope But take care of teh cake!11 - Immy
Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.13 23:46:00 - [127] Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 13/11/2006 23:47:45 Originally by: DeMundus Edited by: DeMundus on 13/11/2006 22:22:56 Argh scan for cloaked ships Pox on CCP... Now my "busniess" just got harder. Reason? Well, I guess its because with a cloak you were 100% safe no matter what. Its still quite difficult to find Co-Ops or Recons from what I have heard but its at least possible now. BTW: What was your "business"?
Bellus Solteuer Caldari Tyrell Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.14 14:29:00 - [128] Has anyone located a cosmic signature in space yet? Are these even in? People have tried to direct the thread that way a couple time to no avail...Also, does anyone have any clue what the formula might be for locating these hidden complexes? Are they racially based signatures conforming to the appropriate kind of sensor technology? Any clues?
Sunaria	Posted - 2006.11.14 15:37:00 - [129] Originally by: Bellus Solteuer Has anyone located a cosmic signature in space yet? Are these even in? People have tried to direct the thread that way a couple time to no avail...Also, does anyone have any clue what the formula might be for locating these hidden complexes? Are they racially based signatures conforming to the appropriate kind of sensor technology? Any clues? /signed is there anyone remotly interested in this and has tried testing it for us poor guys with no astrometrics 5
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.14 16:31:00 - [130] Originally by: Bellus Solteuer Has anyone located a cosmic signature in space yet? Are these even in? People have tried to direct the thread that way a couple time to no avail...Also, does anyone have any clue what the formula might be for locating these hidden complexes? Are they racially based signatures conforming to the appropriate kind of sensor technology? Any clues? Like written a bit above: Deadspace signatures are in, but it¦s quite difficult to find them (specially with the bugged sift probes). There is a special type of signatures (don¦t know the exact naming, but it has the word "cosmic" in it), which are for finding COSMOS-agent sites. These signatures are pretty easy to be found. You can also try to find this one with the recon launcher. If the signatures are racially based is quite probable, but I havn¦t tested it till now.

Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.14 17:43:00 - [131] Originally by: Joerd Toastius And yes, the exploration sites are in and work fine, I've found a couple of plexes, an archaeological site, a couple of drone sites and a gas cloud so far. You just gotta figure out where to look and then have some patience... Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Helison BTW: Has anybody already tested if deadspace signatures have a special racial sensor strenght? I noticed for sure, that the sensor strength of different deadspace signatures is not the same. One deadspace signature had a Ftarget of 1, a second a Ftarget of 0.5 and a third a Ftarget of 0.1, assuming that I didn¦t use the correct racial probe-type (otherwise Ftarget should be multiplied with 5). There were also other signatures, but I wasn¦t able to lock them once. Normally I used Comb probes for my scans. Are you sure you've been picking up variances in Ftarget and not Plock? I've been getting signal strengths all over the spectrum but, one set of inconclusive data aside, they all point to an identical Ftarget so far (around 0.11, IIRC). Originally by: Joerd Toastius Yeah, the N is a defunct thing from the treasure hunt thing. The thing you're looking for is, as surmised, the Deadspace Signature. The sig strength for a cosmic signature, even at point blank (50k or so) range with sifts is generally 0.3 at best, so you just need to grind it currently :(
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.14 18:23:00 - [132] A few new comments. The signature radius/sensor strength works fine mostly but do give some rather strange results. For example it's much easier to find a carrier (15) than it is to find a mothership (8.5). This is due to the extreme sensor strength motherships have. There is also a huge spread in the t1 frigate department with 2.94 for the hardest (griffin) and 10.75 for the easiest (burst). Seems to be one more new skill that I either missed the first time or it has been added later. Since it's not seeded I assume the later. Astrometric Pinpointing Greater accuracy in hunting down targets found through scanning. Reduces maximum scan deviation by 10% per level. Rank 5, requiers astrometrics 4. A few stats have changed since the screenshots on page 1. Max Scan Deviation and Max Flight time for all non sensor specific probes have been doubled. Scan Range of all sensor specific probes have been cut to 1/3 and max scan deviation to 1/4.
Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.14 22:23:00 - [133] I wonder if the new skill will only cut max derivation as written or derivation in general...
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:14:00 - [134] Originally by: Amira Silvermist Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 14/11/2006 22:45:14 Edit: by the way, are the sift probes considered bugged because they need a Covert Ops to be used or was that intentional? Not actually true. All races except Amarr have a ship which reduces activation time of astrometrics modules by 5%/level. If you get this to level 5 and signal acquisition to 4 your cycle time comes down to 270s, which is just enough time to do a sift scan (15s cooldown leaves you five seconds to start the analysis)
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 01:04:00 - [135] Originally by: DeMundus Edited by: DeMundus on 13/11/2006 22:22:56 Argh scan for cloaked ships Pox on CCP... Now my "busniess" just got harder. Reason? Atm on SiSi you can NOT find cloaked ships with probes. If this is a bug or intended I don't know (I am to say the least a bit reluctant to bug report it as I fly a falcon or cheeta most every day :) ).
Langhorn Gallente BMF Corp	Posted - 2006.11.15 11:13:00 - [136] Quote: All races except Amarr have a ship which reduces activation time of astrometrics modules by 5%/level. Amarr have the Anathema which gives the bonus to astrometrics modules, and its 10% not 5%. With the Scan probe launcher having activation tiime of 600s and Covert Ops 3, and Signal Acquisition 3 - reduces the activation time to 294s which would leave 6 seconds to activate a scan. Even with Signal Acq at 5 (bringing activation time down to 300s) means you will need at least covert ops 1 (and ship) to be able to use sift probes.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:21:00 - [137] Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 15/11/2006 12:23:39 Originally by: Langhorn Quote: All races except Amarr have a ship which reduces activation time of astrometrics modules by 5%/level. Amarr have the Anathema which gives the bonus to astrometrics modules, and its 10% not 5%. Quote: The Imicus is a slow but hard-shelled frigate, ideal for any type of scouting activity. Used by merchant, miner and combat groups, the Imicus is usually relied upon as the operation's eyes and ears when traversing low security sectors. Special Ability: 5% bonus to drone range per skill level. 5% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level Quote: The Heron has good computer and electronic systems, giving it the option of participating in electronic warfare. But it has relatively poor defenses and limited weaponry, so it's more commonly used for scouting and exploration. Special Ability: 5% bonus kinetic missile damage per skill level 5% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level Quote: The Probe is large compared to most Minmatar frigates and is considered a good scout and cargo-runner. Uncharacteristically for a Minmatar ship, its hard outer coating makes it difficult to destroy, while the limited weapon hardpoints force it to rely on fighter assistance if engaged in combat. Special Ability: 5% bonus cargo capacity per skill level. 5% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level Quote: All races except Amarr have a ship which reduces activation time of astrometric modules by 5%/level Further, 294s activation time leaves you 11 seconds short because you cannot begin analysing your scan until the scan probe launcher finishes its activation cycle, which takes fifteen seconds. The probe starts counting down as soon as it's launched at the beginning of the cycle. If you try using a sift with a 294s activation time your probe will expire at least eleven seconds before your scan finishes.
Langhorn Gallente BMF Corp	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:33:00 - [138] hadn't realised was talking about normal frigates (since he had quoted a comment about covert ops). But can see now where the 270s comes from (Frigate 5 + Signal Acq. 4).
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:41:00 - [139] Well, this whole discussion about "on which ship is it possible to use a sift probe?" is pointless. If you have the skill for using faction probes, which requires Astrometric 5, you should be possible to use the sift probe on any ship. Everything else would be a bug or a very bad design as the sift probe is the standard probe of all faction probes. If it is necessary to train skills to be able to use more faction probes, the sift probe should be the first probe, as it works on the shortest distance (and will be required for most scans). It has the highest scanning strength, but this is necessary to be able to pinpoint any exploration content.
Langhorn Gallente BMF Corp	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:52:00 - [140] Originally by: Helison Well, this whole discussion about "on which ship is it possible to use a sift probe?" is pointless. If you have the skill for using faction probes, which requires Astrometric 5, you should be possible to use the sift probe on any ship. Everything else would be a bug or a very bad design as the sift probe is the standard probe of all faction probes. If it is necessary to train skills to be able to use more faction probes, the sift probe should be the first probe, as it works on the shortest distance (and will be required for most scans). It has the highest scanning strength, but this is necessary to be able to pinpoint any exploration content. I look at the sift probe as being the hardest 1 to use so should require more skills. Use the weakest probe first to get a general location of an object, then as you get closer to it, then you need to use more accurate probes to fine tune an objects location.

Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.15 13:04:00 - [141] Originally by: Langhorn I look at the sift probe as being the hardest 1 to use so should require more skills. Use the weakest probe first to get a general location of an object, then as you get closer to it, then you need to use more accurate probes to fine tune an objects location. This "need" is the problem: You really need sift probes to be able to get to an object, which is still difficult enough (used 10 sift probes on a signature without any result, but perhaps of the wrong faction).
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.15 14:30:00 - [142] Helison is right in that it's just not feasible to do exploration without sifts, because (last time I checked) nothing else will get you close enough. The changes to maximum deviation may change that, I don't know, but certainly last time I checked there was no point trying without sifts. As it stands you need frigate V (not Amarr) or Covops 3 or so to use them at all. Reducing cycle time on scan probe launchers is not really an option as it makes it overpowered at higher levels, so the only change you could make usefully is to increase the flight time of sifts. However, I'm not 100% convinced that this is necessary - yes, you need sifts to do exploration, but you don't need them for more mundane tasks such as hunting down parked/safed ships. "Faction" probes have uses besides exploration, so it's not a de facto problem that some of them are usable at skill levels where sifts aren't.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 15:07:00 - [143] Well you don't really need sift if it's ship hunting you are doing, even the 64 au version is strong enough to give above 1.0 signal strength in most cases. At worst you might need the 16 aus. So increasing the flight time of sift won't overpower them for ship hunting in any way. Personally I see little reason why you should be forced to use covert ops for exploration, when I first read about it I imagined someone in a BS with an offline probe launcher in a spare high. Onlineing and using it to explore when needed. Now it more looks like you need a covert ops plus an alt in a hauler to carry the probes... I have yet to find a signature to scan for (haven't had time to look) but when I used sifts to look for ships they worked just fine. Also have your tried using 2-3 comb probes instead? That might get you close enough without sift.
Dutarro Kydance Radiant Industries Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.15 16:54:00 - [144] Has anyone found out yet whether deadspace signatures have race-specific signal strength? And if so does it correspond to the type of NPCs found in that deadspace? (radar for Sansha, for example) ------------------------ *opinions stated are not necessarily those of my corporation or alliance
Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.15 16:57:00 - [145] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Not actually true. All races except Amarr have a ship which reduces activation time of astrometrics modules by 5%/level. If you get this to level 5 and signal acquisition to 4 your cycle time comes down to 270s, which is just enough time to do a sift scan (15s cooldown leaves you five seconds to start the analysis) Ah true, sorry for that. I didnt notice that the Amarr got left out in that field again. I wrote a bug report about it. (about the "you need a special ship" not about "amarr got the short end of the funstick again" even if its true)
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.15 17:17:00 - [146] Originally by: Hoshi Personally I see little reason why you should be forced to use covert ops for exploration, when I first read about it I imagined someone in a BS with an offline probe launcher in a spare high. Onlineing and using it to explore when needed. This is doubly the case in 0.0 - the plexes I've been finding haven't been tankable in the Zealot I have in the area, let alone a covops ship. It's going to be a "back to base to change ships" job at the very least... Originally by: Hoshi Also have your tried using 2-3 comb probes instead? That might get you close enough without sift. No, not yet. I'll try and get a chance to check this at the weekend... Originally by: Dutarro Has anyone found out yet whether deadspace signatures have race-specific signal strength? And if so does it correspond to the type of NPCs found in that deadspace? (radar for Sansha, for example) Have found no difference between drones and Guristas so far, but my data are inconclusive
Harry Bucannon The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.15 21:55:00 - [147] Just been testing the exploration side of this, I have located a "deadspace signature" using the magna probes (comb). This is just to confirm to people that there is content out there ready to be discovered! (i had my doubts till a posative reading). Dont know what it is yet, cause i dont have the ability to use sift probes without them running out yet!. Can be seen on the scanner too as deadspace signature, i think they must only spawn via exploration - cause im dead sure it wasn't there before!!.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:21:00 - [148] Edited by: Hoshi on 15/11/2006 23:28:18 Scan Deviation. Max Scan deviation for a scan is determined by Max Scan Deviation of the probe used, the signal strength and a random number. I don't have enough datapoints to get a good formula yet (it takes a lot of time to gather) but what I have suggest the following: *Accuracy = rand (0.6X^2 - 1.6X + 1)* Max Scan Deviation Where X = Signal Strength and rand give a linear random number between 0 and 1. I am 100% sure on the linear random part, just not 100% on the max effective deviation to signal strength part. I have also found a formula that fits slightly better for the signal strength to range formula. I was never really happy with the old. While it was good enough for most purposes it did error, specially in the close range data. The new formula would be: A/(1+Be^(CX))** Where A = 1.1, B = 0.075, C = 3.3 and X is range/max range Not so clean as the old one, can probably use a bit of fine tuning but e^X makes sense as CCP has used that before in the missile damage formula. If anyone wants to test and fine tune these numbers I would be very happy. What you are seeing here is over 5 hours of sampling and calculation. I am in a need of a rest :)
Arilanus Doshenko Gallente Ascendant Strategies Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.15 23:23:00 - [149] Scan probes launchers may need a COVOPS ship to get the time down, but Recon Probe Launchers don't. Base cycle time of 120 seconds. [insert awesome Photoshop character banner here]
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 00:25:00 - [150] Maybe I was a bit too quick with the new signal strength to range formula, seems that when you adjust it to fit the start and end it looks exactly like the old. Oh well, the scan deviation still seems good at least :)

Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.16 00:41:00 - [151] Originally by: Arilanus Doshenko Scan probes launchers may need a COVOPS ship to get the time down, but Recon Probe Launchers don't. Base cycle time of 120 seconds. Yes, and you can't fit sift (or any other exploration) probes in a recon launcher, so it's entirely useless for the problem at hand.
Steppa Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.11.16 05:18:00 - [152] Has CCP said anything about the new scanning system and the old "2D" plane the old scanner worked on? In other words, will the new probes and scanners work on more than just a 2AU deep donut around the ship doing the probing?
Commander Spectre	Posted - 2006.11.16 07:36:00 - [153] Ok I tried the new probes and scanner and there are some problems with it... 1. NPC ships don't show up at all when you scan for them. This was handy because I could scan a system for faction NPCs and look for them if there were any. I hope they can fix this. 2. The analysis takes 3 times as long I used to scan with the 3au snoop probes in 120 seconds (2 min.), now they take 360 seconds (6 min.) which is accually longer than the probe will last making them usless. There is a new skill however that is supposed to give you 10% faster scanning, but I had allready trained astrometrics which was supposed to do that. Now I gotta train yet another skill Astrometrics now adds one scan group per level. So you have to train it up to level 5 to show everything I guess. Pointless IMO. Just more stuff to waste my valubale training time. Everything should be shown to begin with. 3. The nice little system map is gone which I found very useful for pinpointing locations. Because even tho the probes can find ships it is nice to know where exactly in the system you are in relation to other objects. I suppose alot of people never used it, but I found this quite handy. Maybe they can put another tab on the scanner for the map. I know they removed it so the window could be made smaller which is pretty nice because now you can have the sanner open all the time and not block your view much. 4. This has to do with the test server in general... WAY TO TOO MUCH LAG!. I don't mean small annoying lag bursts...but massive long lag that can last several minutes leaving you sitting in one spot and nothing will work for up to 10 min. And it happens about every 15 min. So you are almost in a constant lag burst. This makes it very hard to test anything. I don't know if this is just cuz they are using some cheap server to test with...but if it's like this on tranquility no one will want to play. And the reload all is not working half the time...hope they can fix that too.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.16 10:19:00 - [154] Originally by: Steppa Has CCP said anything about the new scanning system and the old "2D" plane the old scanner worked on? In other words, will the new probes and scanners work on more than just a 2AU deep donut around the ship doing the probing? Yes, they do. Certainly all exploration probes are entirely 3D, and I imagine the ship scanning ones are too. Originally by: Commander Spectre 2. The analysis takes 3 times as long I used to scan with the 3au snoop probes in 120 seconds (2 min.), now they take 360 seconds (6 min.) which is accually longer than the probe will last making them usless. There is a new skill however that is supposed to give you 10% faster scanning, but I had allready trained astrometrics which was supposed to do that. Now I gotta train yet another skill Astrometrics now adds one scan group per level. So you have to train it up to level 5 to show everything I guess. Pointless IMO. Just more stuff to waste my valubale training time. Everything should be shown to begin with. If you're using snoops (ship hunters), use a Recon Probe Launcher. It starts at 120s and can be brought down to 30s with maxed skills.
Harry Bucannon The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.16 11:19:00 - [155] From what I can tell of the exploration probes on SiSi; The greater your skill, the better you can use the sift probes (the one that will give you the final location). Isnt this the wrong way round?. Surley a beginer should be able to use sift, and an expert should be able to use the likes of the quest probe?.
Harry Bucannon The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:15:00 - [156] Edited by: Harry Bucannon on 16/11/2006 16:31:31 Edited by: Harry Bucannon on 16/11/2006 16:25:39 Just to say now, looks like the faction probes just got a little buff Sift now has a flight time of 500 secs instead of 300 secs However there Scan Range has drop to 0.5! All the faction probes have changed in someway. Type,Flight Time,Scan Range, Faction signal strength Quest, 4000, 4, 250 Pursuit, 2000, 2, 500 Comb, 1000, 1, 1000 Sift, 500, 0.5, 2000 Also, that bug with the new fancy map showing the probe bubble is fix now
Langhorn Gallente BMF Corp	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:31:00 - [157] Edited by: Langhorn on 16/11/2006 16:37:29 All Sensor Strenghts have doubled as well as the above info with 500s fligt time on the sifts, you now only need Signal Acqusition 2 to be able to use them (on what ever ship you like). Although you would only have 5 seconds spare after launching the probe (and waiting 15s) to start a scan.
Harry Bucannon The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:32:00 - [158] Edited by: Harry Bucannon on 16/11/2006 16:37:39 Volume is now 1.25 for these faction probes too
Langhorn Gallente BMF Corp	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:38:00 - [159] Edited by: Langhorn on 16/11/2006 16:38:43 nm
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:11:00 - [160] Well that solves the problem of them being overpowered for ship locating. With 4au max range it won't be an issue anymore. But I must say I was looking forward to the fact that you had to decide if you where to fit a recon launcher for quick ship probing or a scan launcher for accurate.

Steppa Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:55:00 - [161] Probe launchers that actually let you fire a probe at a celestial object, such as planets/moons/belts, would be awesome. The probes themselves would have to be very large, though, and I think require battlecruiser and up to use the launcher, which would also be larger. This would negate a player having to warp all over a system, which takes time. Instead, you could fire a spray of probes at different targets and wait for the returns. Yet another role for the command ships? Or possibly a new ship-class altogether? Something that mirrors the AWACS plane of today?
Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:03:00 - [162] I really like the increase of the flight time, now you can have two scan runs with a covert ops and one with every other ship. But isnt a range of 4AU for quest probes a weee bit extreme? Amarr racial trait: Nerfbat damage resistance 0%
Harry Bucannon The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:27:00 - [163] Yeah, i think it extreme too; Quest range of 32au <-> 16au would be much better.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 20:32:00 - [164] It needs to be less than 14.5au, if it's more you can launch one outside scanner range of the target and get a 0m accuracy result with little effort. That is a bit overpowered imho. It might be possible to do so now using multiple 20au probes but at least you have to work for it.
Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:03:00 - [165] good point Hoshi... They should just double the range again. Amarr racial trait: Nerfbat damage resistance 0%
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:20:00 - [166] Have we tried dropping one of the larger probes right next to a cloaked ship yet? Hoshi has said cloaked ships can't be probed yet. What kind of tests were done?
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:04:00 - [167] Originally by: Aertuun Have we tried dropping one of the larger probes right next to a cloaked ship yet? Hoshi has said cloaked ships can't be probed yet. What kind of tests were done? I tried among other thing using a sift probe of the correct type (pre last boost so a strength of 1000, compared to 20 for the strongest ship probe) about 150.000 km away, gave the expected 232 signal strength when the ship was uncloaked and no result after 5 searches when it was cloaked. I can run more extensive test later if you want but it will have to wait a bit as I am going away over the weekend. This is the last msg for while, will be back to pestering you on sunday evening, have fun probing guys :)
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:17:00 - [168] Just a short notice: exploration is at the moment nearly impossible as the directional scanner doesn¦t show deadspace signatures. I managed to probe a earlier found complex, so they are still around.
Aertuun Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:25:00 - [169] Edited by: Aertuun on 17/11/2006 11:34:06 Originally by: Hoshi ...gave the expected 232 signal strength when the ship was uncloaked and no result after 5 searches when it was cloaked... That definitely falls under bugged then That is, unless cloaking reduces signal strength by a factor of more than 232, which would make them impossible to probe anyway. Given that, do we have any idea whether probing for cloaked ships is still planned?
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:57:00 - [170] Gah, I go afk for 24 hours and the entire dynamic of fleet combat in Kali changes again... more testing needed I guess :P Originally by: Steppa Probe launchers that actually let you fire a probe at a celestial object, such as planets/moons/belts, would be awesome. Moon probes already function like this

Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:36:00 - [171] I have now new data about probing of exploration sites. For my tests I used sift probes, which have a sensor strength of 2000 in the correct racial sensor type and 400 in the other three types. So a magnetometric sift probe has a sensor strenght of 2000 magnetometric and 400 ladar, radar and gravitometric. In the first test I scanned a small mining site in Fountain, which contains several Bistot-roids and spawns small rogue drones. In system view the site is called "Medium Bistot". I was sitting about 300km away from the deadspace signature, so we can ignore the range. The data: Magnetometric Sift Probe: 0.4 signal strength Ladar Sift Probe: 0.4 signal strength Radar Sift Probe: 0.4 signal strength Gravitometric Sift Probe: 2.0 signal strength So this exploration seems to have only a gravimetric sensor strength, which is normally typical for caldari ships. So the scan vulnerability (Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength) of this deadspace signature is 0.1 (for gravimetric). As second object I scanned an "Cosmic Agent Site Signature" in Fountain space, which leads to the main agent site of the COSMOS-constellation in Fountain. Results: Magnetometric Sift Probe: 100 signal strength Ladar Sift Probe: 100 signal strength Radar Sift Probe: 100 signal strength Gravitometric Sift Probe: 100 signal strength I would interpret this data, that this special site has all 4 types of sensor strength. The scan vulnerability with this assumption would be 5. Using a snoop probe we should get a signal strength of 1.0 (will check this as soon as I can login again). I will continue these tests as soon as I can use the directional scanner again for finding new signatures.
Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.18 00:03:00 - [172] I think the COSMOS stuff has nothing to do with new exploration features and therefore have stats that don't seem to "fit". I also think that the new hidden exploration sites should not be visible on the directional scanner. Is that a bug or did I miss something? Amarr racial trait: Nerfbat damage resistance 0%
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.18 01:01:00 - [173] Originally by: Amira Silvermist I think the COSMOS stuff has nothing to do with new exploration features and therefore have stats that don't seem to "fit". I also think that the new hidden exploration sites should not be visible on the directional scanner. Is that a bug or did I miss something? The new 0.0 COSMOS stuff is nearly only exploration stuff. The agent site itselfis special and I think it should be possible to scan it with "normal" scan probes (like the Snoop). Directional scanner + deadspace signatures: At the moment it¦s nearly impossible to find exploration sites if you don¦t see the signatures on directional scanner. The quest probes have a scan radius of 4 AU and the probability of finding a signature like the medium bistot site at 3 AU distance would be 14% with the correct probe type (gravimetric) and 3% with a wrong probe. So with a Gravimetric Quest Probe only one of 7 scans would give a result, with any other quest probe one of 33 scans. At the moment i can¦t tell exactly how far most deadspace signatures are away from planets, but the ones which I scanned for were between 2 and 4 AU. The cosmic agent site was about 4.5 AU from the next stellar object (either scannable with snoop probes from the planet or with faction probes, with using midwarp-BM¦s (was in this case quiet easy). But don¦t forget that midwarp-BM¦s are only a alternative, if you really know, where you want to probe for something.
Feynt Rovigo Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.18 02:56:00 - [174] Originally by: Aertuun TomB: Now there's something I forgot to mention; 1. Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person With the old system I could refine my search and get closer and closer to my target by launching tighter probes within the 'spheres' of the old ones. Now I cannot? If I have to wait out the life of each probe to launch a new one with a tighter focus, that will dramatically increase my overall scan time and it'll leave me just sitting around twiddling my thumbs often, waiting for probes to expire, no? I have been logging in to Singularity to test the scanning changes, but I keep getting disconnected before I get my scan results back... I'm going to try again tomorrow, but thought I should ask here as well.
Harry Bucannon The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.18 08:37:00 - [175] Originally by: Feynt Rovigo Originally by: Aertuun TomB: Now there's something I forgot to mention; 1. Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person With the old system I could refine my search and get closer and closer to my target by launching tighter probes within the 'spheres' of the old ones. Now I cannot? If I have to wait out the life of each probe to launch a new one with a tighter focus, that will dramatically increase my overall scan time and it'll leave me just sitting around twiddling my thumbs often, waiting for probes to expire, no? I have been logging in to Singularity to test the scanning changes, but I keep getting disconnected before I get my scan results back... I'm going to try again tomorrow, but thought I should ask here as well. You can destroy probes once you have finished with them, right click on them in the window and destroy. Then your free to lay another one in its area.
Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.18 10:33:00 - [176] Originally by: Helison The new 0.0 COSMOS stuff is nearly only exploration stuff. The agent site itselfis special and I think it should be possible to scan it with "normal" scan probes (like the Snoop). Hmm, what race did get the new COSMOS regions? Originally by: Helison Directional scanner + deadspace signatures: At the moment it¦s nearly impossible to find exploration sites if you don¦t see the signatures on directional scanner. The quest probes have a scan radius of 4 AU and the probability of finding a signature like the medium bistot site at 3 AU distance would be 14% with the correct probe type (gravimetric) and 3% with a wrong probe. So with a Gravimetric Quest Probe only one of 7 scans would give a result, with any other quest probe one of 33 scans. Thats also my beef with the current probes... What use is the new system if everybody can find the new signatures (but cant warp to them)? I was under the impression that one has to start with the largest probe to check if something interesting is in the system and narrow it down from there. Now that we have quest probes with 4AU I wonder... Amarr racial trait: Nerfbat damage resistance 0%
Harry Bucannon The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.18 17:21:00 - [177] Edited by: Harry Bucannon on 18/11/2006 17:23:20 Just some info here, managed to scan down this with Grav racial probes ... Coral thingy + drones Is this mission related or some of the new content thats been added?
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.18 21:28:00 - [178] Originally by: Harry Bucannon Edited by: Harry Bucannon on 18/11/2006 17:23:20 Just some info here, managed to scan down this with Grav racial probes ... Coral thingy + drones Is this mission related or some of the new content thats been added? Hehe, this screenshot looks VERY familiar to me. The exploration site "medium Bistot" looks like this one. So check if there are any roids between the corals!
Donna Darko	Posted - 2006.11.19 14:00:00 - [179] Edited by: Donna Darko on 19/11/2006 14:03:29 Edited by: Donna Darko on 19/11/2006 14:02:21 OK, I tested the moon probes, for kicks, they seem to be working, but the system I scanned had no interesting minerals (it was high security, I didn't have time to test it in low security. I might some other day.) Regarding the Observator probe, I scanned 30 times for ships in space and found the Rokh I knew of 13 times, a Stilleto 3 times and various Ibis, Velators and Caldari shuttles 1 time (found 1 ship of each type out of the 15 or so KNOWN ones existing in space). It seems to me that CCP does not want deep safe spots found even now, seeing that (in my experience at least) people fly and abandon smaller ships more often. I used the Recon Probe Launcher, since it's faster, but I don't think the launcher influences the results (my 1-2 tests with the Scan Probe Launcher gave similarly few results). A suggestion: to speed up scanning, get yourselves a "Signal Focusing Kit" and "Gravity Capacitor Upgrade" rig (you can build them, both blueprints and materials are on the market and we have the skills required). Signal Focusing Kit's description is somewhat vague, the description implies the targeting is faster, but the attributes indicate a 15% scan speed bonus. I jumped in a non-rigged ship and noticed the scan speed bonus applies, nothing happens to the scan resolution. Gravity Capacitor Upgrade gives 10% less to scan time. EDIT my next test will involve scanning 100 times for all types of ships I can fly and eject in space (hope to find someone else in Lonetrek who's willing to help me). Stories.
Zallazaer Caldari Shinra Cosa Nostra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.19 14:00:00 - [180] Originally by: Feynt Rovigo With the old system I could refine my search and get closer and closer to my target by launching tighter probes within the 'spheres' of the old ones. Now I cannot? If I have to wait out the life of each probe to launch a new one with a tighter focus, that will dramatically increase my overall scan time and it'll leave me just sitting around twiddling my thumbs often, waiting for probes to expire, no? Right click on the deployed probe in the scanner overview. Destroy probe. Wait 10s for the lag. Then fire an new probe.

Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.19 14:39:00 - [181] Edited by: Hoshi on 19/11/2006 14:40:24 Originally by: Donna Darko EDIT my next test will involve scanning 100 times for all types of ships I can fly and eject in space (hope to find someone else in Lonetrek who's willing to help me). No need to do that, we already have the math figured out. Stiletto 31m sig radius, 9 points sensor strength, 31/9 = 3.44 signal size. Observetor probe, Strength 1. 3.44 * 1 (as observetor have 1000au range we don't have to bother with strength reduction for range) = 3.44% chance of finding it per scan or once every 29 scans avg. Train the strength skill to level 5 and it becomes 4.3% chance or once every 24 scans. So yes finding a single small ship in a deepsafe is going to take a while, on the other hand if it's a large (like a BS for example) or a group of ships I would be surprised if it took you more than 5 min total from first probe dropped until you are sitting ontop of them.
Donna Darko	Posted - 2006.11.19 22:04:00 - [182] Originally by: Hoshi So yes finding a single small ship in a deepsafe is going to take a while... That is one of the reasons I want to scan and find ships: scavenging. With the way Observator works, this means I have a lot less chances (unless I spend like hours scanning the same system... slaps head in pain) to find a ship I don't know is in the system and I cannot scan for (i.e. deep safe spot). On my 30 scans I found the Stiletto twice on the first 10 scans, once on the next 10 scans, 0 (ZERO) times on the next 10 scans. Stories.
Zallazaer Caldari Shinra Cosa Nostra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.20 09:45:00 - [183] Ok, I've been scanning for quite some time now. I've used a ferret and finally found a deadspace signature on my scan. signal strength: 0.004648 distance 2.500 accuracy 7.854 Isn't it odd, that I've found one with a ferret? I thought the new racial probes should help finding them. But since the range of these probes is very limited, I'm not sure how they are of any use. Now, what do these numbers mean? And how should I home in on the signature?
Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.20 10:28:00 - [184] Originally by: Zallazaer Now, what do these numbers mean? And how should I home in on the signature? You got very lucky it seems... Just use the new Quest probes and narrow it down till a sift probe makes you land on top of the signature. Amarr racial trait: Nerfbat damage resistance 0%
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.20 10:29:00 - [185] Originally by: Zallazaer Ok, I've been scanning for quite some time now. I've used a ferret and finally found a deadspace signature on my scan. signal strength: 0.004648 distance 2.500 accuracy 7.854 Isn't it odd, that I've found one with a ferret? I thought the new racial probes should help finding them. But since the range of these probes is very limited, I'm not sure how they are of any use. Now, what do these numbers mean? And how should I home in on the signature? Nice one! Either you have scanned really a lot or you had a lot of luck. You have a signal strength of 0.004648, which means that only one of 215 scans with a ferret probe would be successful! The distance should be in AU, so the object is 2.5AU from your position. The accuracy should be in km, but I don¦t know exactly (can¦t login at the moment), specially I don¦t know on which position the dot is. I think you are 7854 km away from the signature. What you can do: a) If you can use racial probes: Warp to your scan position and drop a sift probe (with a normal scan probe launcher). You should get at least a scan probability of 0.9296 (=0.004648*400/2) or 4.648 with the correct faction probe. b) You can warp to the scan position and try to scan with snoop probes. About 1 of 22 scans should be successful. I think the scan deviation of the snoop probe is low enough, so you should be able to warp within the grid of the signature, which will spawn then. c) If CCP adds the deadspace signatures again to directional scanner, you can take a fast frig and fly into the direction of the deadspace signature. When are very close to the signature and nothing is shown on overview: make a BM, warpout and warp back to your BM. In the last patch, where deadspace signatures were on directional scanner, the deadspace site only spawned, when you warped to the grid and not if you only fly there (with microwarpdrive).
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.20 10:30:00 - [186] Originally by: Amira Silvermist Originally by: Zallazaer Now, what do these numbers mean? And how should I home in on the signature? You got very lucky it seems... Just use the new Quest probes and narrow it down till a sift probe makes you land on top of the signature. No need for the quest probe, just warp to the result and launch a sift probe.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.20 11:49:00 - [187] Originally by: Donna Darko Originally by: Hoshi So yes finding a single small ship in a deepsafe is going to take a while... That is one of the reasons I want to scan and find ships: scavenging. With the way Observator works, this means I have a lot less chances (unless I spend like hours scanning the same system... slaps head in pain) to find a ship I don't know is in the system and I cannot scan for (i.e. deep safe spot). On my 30 scans I found the Stiletto twice on the first 10 scans, once on the next 10 scans, 0 (ZERO) times on the next 10 scans. The solution to this, if it is indeed an issue, is another 1000au range probe which simply lists all applicable objects in the system but makes no attempt to actually locate them. This gives you a complete list of present items without giving you too much of a head-start actually finding them. If you wanted to make exploration less directional-scanner-based, you could have a complete sized set of these and remove deadspace signatures from the scanner, so you have to work out where to probe using probes rather than the scanner. This would probably lead to cargo space issues fairly quickly though.
Zallazaer Caldari Shinra Cosa Nostra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:44:00 - [188] Originally by: Helison Nice one! Either you have scanned really a lot or you had a lot of luck. You have a signal strength of 0.004648, which means that only one of 215 scans with a ferret probe would be successful! The distance should be in AU, so the object is 2.5AU from your position. The accuracy should be in km, but I don¦t know exactly (can¦t login at the moment), specially I don¦t know on which position the dot is. I think you are 7854 km away from the signature. Ok, this is what I've done. I've warped to the signature. Made a BM. Then launched a Ladar comb. Deadspace signature strength 1.99999 distance 7.852 accuracy 0 I warp to it. A gate! I make a BM. On the map is shows as "pirate hideout Arnar". I warp through the gate, and I see a veldspar roid field with a few bad guys it also has another gate to a deeper level. Now I'm targetted by the rats and don't want to loose my rigg fitted buzzard. I warp to the station and get my cruize raven. I warp back to the last BM: no gate..... Darn. Apparently the gate disappears if you dock at a station or leave the system, just like moon probes (?) I'm speculating here.
Seramyr l'Ethia	Posted - 2006.11.20 17:01:00 - [189] Edited by: Seramyr l''Ethia on 20/11/2006 17:01:21 Apparently either scannable deadspace signatures are gang-only or we're going to be seeing some highly unorthodox covops setups.
Harry Bucannon The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.20 17:46:00 - [190] Can someone please enlighten me as to if there are any rigs that can help speed up probing?

Zallazaer Caldari Shinra Cosa Nostra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.20 18:06:00 - [191] Originally by: Harry Bucannon Can someone please enlighten me as to if there are any rigs that can help speed up probing? Electronic analysis rig blueprint creates emission scope sharpner tech1, which increases the ship analyser modules. You need conductive polymer, damaged artificial neural network and tripped power circuit. The skills industry lvl1 and Jury rigging lvl1 are required to manufacture. Gravity capacitor upgrade blueprint creates gravity capacitor upgrade tech1, which reduces a ship scan probe scan time by 10%. I've built both riggs and fitted them on my buzzard. Great improvements.
Harry Bucannon The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.20 19:22:00 - [192] Originally by: Zallazaer Electronic analysis rig blueprint creates emission scope sharpner tech1, which increases the ship analyser modules. You need conductive polymer, damaged artificial neural network and tripped power circuit. The skills industry lvl1 and Jury rigging lvl1 are required to manufacture. Gravity capacitor upgrade blueprint creates gravity capacitor upgrade tech1, which reduces a ship scan probe scan time by 10%. I've built both riggs and fitted them on my buzzard. Great improvements. What does the emission scope sharpner do to probing?, description is not clear.
Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.20 19:45:00 - [193] I am very curious as how the new probe system will effect mission runners in low sec as I typicaly take a week or two, here and there, to make some isk. Any comments on how much easier this new system is going to make it to find mission runners? "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers
Amira Silvermist Yazata Spenta Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.11.20 19:48:00 - [194] Originally by: Helison Originally by: Amira Silvermist You got very lucky it seems... Just use the new Quest probes and narrow it down till a sift probe makes you land on top of the signature. No need for the quest probe, just warp to the result and launch a sift probe. Erm... I thought the new sift probes have 0.5 AU range? If the derivation is 2.5 AU you would need quite a bit of luck to find it I guess. Amarr racial trait: Nerfbat damage resistance 0%
Zallazaer Caldari Shinra Cosa Nostra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.20 19:51:00 - [195] Originally by: Harry Bucannon What does the emission scope sharpner do to probing?, description is not clear. That is a lazy question. Get on sisi and try it out.
Langhorn Gallente BMF Corp	Posted - 2006.11.20 19:58:00 - [196] Edited by: Langhorn on 20/11/2006 20:10:28 Originally by: Harry Bucannon Originally by: Zallazaer Electronic analysis rig blueprint creates emission scope sharpner tech1, which increases the ship analyser modules. You need conductive polymer, damaged artificial neural network and tripped power circuit. The skills industry lvl1 and Jury rigging lvl1 are required to manufacture. Gravity capacitor upgrade blueprint creates gravity capacitor upgrade tech1, which reduces a ship scan probe scan time by 10%. I've built both riggs and fitted them on my buzzard. Great improvements. What does the emission scope sharpner do to probing?, description is not clear. It has a 20% "Access Difficulty Bonus Modifier", which is the same bonus the hacking rig gets. and looking at a codebreaker module, the stat that governs success chance of hacking a object is called "Access Difficulty Bonus", but when fitting a codebreaker module, there is no increase. So it's possible this rig is broken at the moment. edit: Actually, I now think this rig is for Archaeology modules, Since they are considered "Analyzer modules" - according to the archaeology skill description
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.20 20:20:00 - [197] Originally by: Tribunal I am very curious as how the new probe system will effect mission runners in low sec as I typicaly take a week or two, here and there, to make some isk. Any comments on how much easier this new system is going to make it to find mission runners? Let me put it like this, once I have the new skills trained I can bet you 100m that if you are in a BS I will find you (as in warp in on top of you without you knowing it) within 5 min of me entering the system, unless you take special measures to avoid it like fitting ECCM (will only delay it a bit) or hitting the scanner every 30sec to see my probes or warp around all the time.
Borgholio Minmatar Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.11.20 20:40:00 - [198] Edited by: Borgholio on 20/11/2006 20:42:09 After experimenting with probes for awhile, it seems the longer range "normal" probes (Ferret / Observator) are next to useless in finding anything smaller than a capital ship. I decided to use some of the newer scan probes, but even the long range Quest probes only have a 4au scan range. In order to find anything, it would seem that I need to fly around a system and drop a half dozen of these things in order to successfully scan for an object. With that being said, how many of you have actually found objects such as gas clouds, hidden deadspace signatures, and things like that? Was it necessary to drop several Quest probes near major celestial objects (stargates, planets, etc...)? ----------------------------------- You will be assimilated...bunghole!
Harry Bucannon The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.21 11:48:00 - [199] Originally by: Zallazaer That is a lazy question. Get on sisi and try it out. After trying it out, im not convinced that it does anything!. So what do you think it does?
Langhorn Gallente BMF Corp	Posted - 2006.11.21 15:36:00 - [200] Originally by: Harry Bucannon Originally by: Zallazaer That is a lazy question. Get on sisi and try it out. After trying it out, im not convinced that it does anything!. So what do you think it does? it boosts the archaeology modules chance of success by 20%. Level 1 Archaeology + Analyzer 1 module + Rig = 6% chance, instead of 5%

Harry Bucannon The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.21 16:10:00 - [201] Edited by: Harry Bucannon on 21/11/2006 16:33:03 Originally by: Langhorn it boosts the archaeology modules chance of success by 20%. Level 1 Archaeology + Analyzer 1 module + Rig = 6% chance, instead of 5% So from that we can see it has nothing to do with probes / exploration?. Would some of the rigs that fiddle with the ships sig's effect probing?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.21 21:55:00 - [202] Originally by: Zallazaer Originally by: Helison Nice one! Either you have scanned really a lot or you had a lot of luck. You have a signal strength of 0.004648, which means that only one of 215 scans with a ferret probe would be successful! The distance should be in AU, so the object is 2.5AU from your position. The accuracy should be in km, but I don¦t know exactly (can¦t login at the moment), specially I don¦t know on which position the dot is. I think you are 7854 km away from the signature. Ok, this is what I've done. I've warped to the signature. Made a BM. Then launched a Ladar comb. Deadspace signature strength 1.99999 distance 7.852 accuracy 0 I warp to it. A gate! I make a BM. On the map is shows as "pirate hideout Arnar". I warp through the gate, and I see a veldspar roid field with a few bad guys it also has another gate to a deeper level. Now I'm targetted by the rats and don't want to loose my rigg fitted buzzard. I warp to the station and get my cruize raven. I warp back to the last BM: no gate..... Darn. Apparently the gate disappears if you dock at a station or leave the system, just like moon probes (?) I'm speculating here. It is a joke, right? So the deadspace complex needed for the data interface and datacore for invention require some undred of scanning to find one (probably not the right one ), then to go and explore immediatly in a probe fitted ship, with hacking and archeology scanners in the hope of finding the data cores and interfaces. And then someone say that the datacores and interfaces will not be monopolized by the big alliances. Who has the time/resources to launch hundred of probes in a system and then immediatly storm the location found? After the 4-5 unsuccessful expedition with a small fleet to defend and support the researcher a small corp will send him to the deepest hell.
Mordrake MetaForge	Posted - 2006.11.21 23:59:00 - [203] Edited by: Mordrake on 22/11/2006 00:01:50 Edited by: Mordrake on 21/11/2006 23:59:52 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Zallazaer Originally by: Helison Nice one! Either you have scanned really a lot or you had a lot of luck. You have a signal strength of 0.004648, which means that only one of 215 scans with a ferret probe would be successful! The distance should be in AU, so the object is 2.5AU from your position. The accuracy should be in km, but I don¦t know exactly (can¦t login at the moment), specially I don¦t know on which position the dot is. I think you are 7854 km away from the signature. Ok, this is what I've done. I've warped to the signature. Made a BM. Then launched a Ladar comb. Deadspace signature strength 1.99999 distance 7.852 accuracy 0 I warp to it. A gate! I make a BM. On the map is shows as "pirate hideout Arnar". I warp through the gate, and I see a veldspar roid field with a few bad guys it also has another gate to a deeper level. Now I'm targetted by the rats and don't want to loose my rigg fitted buzzard. I warp to the station and get my cruize raven. I warp back to the last BM: no gate..... Darn. Apparently the gate disappears if you dock at a station or leave the system, just like moon probes (?) I'm speculating here. It is a joke, right? So the deadspace complex needed for the data interface and datacore for invention require some undred of scanning to find one (probably not the right one ), then to go and explore immediatly in a probe fitted ship, with hacking and archeology scanners in the hope of finding the data cores and interfaces. And then someone say that the datacores and interfaces will not be monopolized by the big alliances. Who has the time/resources to launch hundred of probes in a system and then immediatly storm the location found? After the 4-5 unsuccessful expedition with a small fleet to defend and support the researcher a small corp will send him to the deepest hell. Yes this goes against what the Devs said it would be... "Find the secret complex and harvest it yourself or sell the location to the highest bidder" "The crusty old prospector that finds the rare Asteroid field and slowly mines it out" Complete crud if these deadspace signatures once finally found disapear like the morning mist as soon as you warp off or dock. I hope this gets fixed before it goes live!! "Arte et Marte"
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.22 00:49:00 - [204] I need to get on and test the latest changes properly. Certainly when I was testing under the "old" system each find would stay put for several days.
Matuk Grymwal PAX Interstellar Services Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.22 07:53:00 - [205] It would be nice if Astrometric Pinpointing was seeded on Kali
Tek'a Rain Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.22 10:09:00 - [206] Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Tribunal I am very curious as how the new probe system will effect mission runners in low sec as I typicaly take a week or two, here and there, to make some isk. Any comments on how much easier this new system is going to make it to find mission runners? Let me put it like this, once I have the new skills trained I can bet you 100m that if you are in a BS I will find you (as in warp in on top of you without you knowing it) within 5 min of me entering the system, unless you take special measures to avoid it like fitting ECCM (will only delay it a bit) or hitting the scanner every 30sec to see my probes or warp around all the time. well, im sure thats the very best thing to help bring people into lowsec space and populate the worthless areas. how long before the pirates start more whining about "no mission runners will come let us kill them! I demand a nerf to ruin their gameplay and make their risk all my reward!" lowsec agents are very nice indeed, but a mission runner wont blindly walk off a cliff and throw away NPC combat fit battleships all week. maybe for a few days, before going up higher to seek fortune.
Zeromancer Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.22 10:52:00 - [207] Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Tribunal I am very curious as how the new probe system will effect mission runners in low sec as I typicaly take a week or two, here and there, to make some isk. Any comments on how much easier this new system is going to make it to find mission runners? Let me put it like this, once I have the new skills trained I can bet you 100m that if you are in a BS I will find you (as in warp in on top of you without you knowing it) within 5 min of me entering the system, unless you take special measures to avoid it like fitting ECCM (will only delay it a bit) or hitting the scanner every 30sec to see my probes or warp around all the time. Except that this wouldn't work in most cases. Almoust all of the missions are in deadspacepockets and you will end up at the warpgate to these pockets. As a lowsec missionrunner i would have to change the way i do missions by not staying close to the gates when i warp into a pocket. I will start to move my ship away from the gate as soon as i enter and get some distance to it. That way if someone warps in after me i will have some distance from the gate and can either run away or kill the person that found me. This will actually make missionrunning a bit more fun as i now can get some pvp mixed with the mission and get better loot out of it. ----------------------------------------- I'm baaack!!
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.22 11:57:00 - [208] Originally by: Zeromancer Except that this wouldn't work in most cases. Almoust all of the missions are in deadspacepockets and you will end up at the warpgate to these pockets. As a lowsec missionrunner i would have to change the way i do missions by not staying close to the gates when i warp into a pocket. I will start to move my ship away from the gate as soon as i enter and get some distance to it. That way if someone warps in after me i will have some distance from the gate and can either run away or kill the person that found me. This will actually make missionrunning a bit more fun as i now can get some pvp mixed with the mission and get better loot out of it. There are lots of missions that don't use gates as well and you are not considering all the options. For example in the pirate gang there might be a pilgrim or arazu (pilgrim vs turret ships, arazu with sensor damps vs raven). The covert finds the gate and the pilgrim/arazu goes in cloaked to tackle you.
Zeromancer Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.22 12:17:00 - [209] Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Zeromancer Except that this wouldn't work in most cases. Almoust all of the missions are in deadspacepockets and you will end up at the warpgate to these pockets. As a lowsec missionrunner i would have to change the way i do missions by not staying close to the gates when i warp into a pocket. I will start to move my ship away from the gate as soon as i enter and get some distance to it. That way if someone warps in after me i will have some distance from the gate and can either run away or kill the person that found me. This will actually make missionrunning a bit more fun as i now can get some pvp mixed with the mission and get better loot out of it. There are lots of missions that don't use gates as well and you are not considering all the options. For example in the pirate gang there might be a pilgrim or arazu (pilgrim vs turret ships, arazu with sensor damps vs raven). The covert finds the gate and the pilgrim/arazu goes in cloaked to tackle you. Yes that can happend, but then again mabye the cloacked Pilgrim/Arazu is't the only cloacked ship in there ----------------------------------------- I'm baaack!!
Arthegon Dark-Rising	Posted - 2006.11.22 12:35:00 - [210] Originally by: Effei Gloom how about a button to remove: 1. empty floating ships (boardable) like shuttle and noob ships...(empty ships inside FF) from scann results 2. ships of gang mates / alliance / corp mates / pilots with high standings from scannresults -> apply overview settings on scannresults! main problem at moment is still that you cannot scan for war targets effectively as long as you get results for friendly ships You would like it all handed to u on a silver plate wouldnt u? The LESS automation stuff we get in this game the better for the gameplay.

Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.22 13:31:00 - [211] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Zallazaer Originally by: Helison Nice one! Either you have scanned really a lot or you had a lot of luck. You have a signal strength of 0.004648, which means that only one of 215 scans with a ferret probe would be successful! The distance should be in AU, so the object is 2.5AU from your position. The accuracy should be in km, but I don¦t know exactly (can¦t login at the moment), specially I don¦t know on which position the dot is. I think you are 7854 km away from the signature. Ok, this is what I've done. I've warped to the signature. Made a BM. Then launched a Ladar comb. Deadspace signature strength 1.99999 distance 7.852 accuracy 0 I warp to it. A gate! I make a BM. On the map is shows as "pirate hideout Arnar". I warp through the gate, and I see a veldspar roid field with a few bad guys it also has another gate to a deeper level. Now I'm targetted by the rats and don't want to loose my rigg fitted buzzard. I warp to the station and get my cruize raven. I warp back to the last BM: no gate..... Darn. Apparently the gate disappears if you dock at a station or leave the system, just like moon probes (?) I'm speculating here. It is a joke, right? So the deadspace complex needed for the data interface and datacore for invention require some undred of scanning to find one (probably not the right one ), then to go and explore immediatly in a probe fitted ship, with hacking and archeology scanners in the hope of finding the data cores and interfaces. And then someone say that the datacores and interfaces will not be monopolized by the big alliances. Who has the time/resources to launch hundred of probes in a system and then immediatly storm the location found? After the 4-5 unsuccessful expedition with a small fleet to defend and support the researcher a small corp will send him to the deepest hell. Well, if it helps any the gas clouds I found last week are still there, as is a drone encounter I found at around the same time. I just reprobed the latter, went two jumps to get my ship and came back and it's exactly where I left it
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.22 14:09:00 - [212] Edited by: Hoshi on 22/11/2006 14:09:16 Edited by: Hoshi on 22/11/2006 14:08:48 Done some tests on scanning using multiple probe. The results are interesting to say the least. First of all there is a large bug atm which allows you to have 1 probe inside the range of another as long as you launch the shorter range probe first. This bug actually makes it easier to test multiple probes as you don't have to work as hard to place them correctly. If you want to test multiple probes I suggest you do it know before its fixed (it has been bug reported). When combining multiple probes the strength of them seems to follow the following formula: *Compound strength = (probe A str + probe B str + ... + probe X str) / (probe A str mult probe B str mult * ... * probe X str mult) str = signal strength alone. str mult = a multiplier that is specific for each range type and is also effected by the range of the probe from the target. Shorter range probes have a higher value (making them less accurate to combine) and longer ranges increase the number. Str mult are in the range from around 1.01 to 1.15. Going to take A LOT more tests to verify these numbers and find the correct formula but I think I am on the right path. A few things about what this means in reality. It's not recommended to combine a very short range probe with a very long range one. For example when I used a 5au probe alone I got 0.95 signal strength, but then I combined to with a 20 au probe (which alone had 0.18 signal strength) the combined strength became 0.92** which is less than the 5au probe produced on its own. Combining probes also have some strange effects on accuracy. I had an example where I combined 3x 10au probes, got a signal strength of 1.25 but an accuracy of 669km!!!. So even with strength above 1 it was not fully accurate.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.22 16:09:00 - [213] BALANCING OF SCAN PROBES Used terms: vulnerability = Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength Current problems ) Too low scan deviation ) Too low sensor strength of high-distance probes ) Drones are too easy to be found: A Domi has as an example a vulnerability of 19, the Ogre a vulnerability of 100. So if you want to find a Domi, which is running mission, you just have to scan for drones. ) Faction probes have a too low scan range (but would be too powerful for finding ships if the have a higher range) ) Too many sorts of faction probes, too many probes required for locating a deadspace signature. My proposals (not all are cumulative):* a) No warp to 0 for scan results! 15 km is really enough! b) Change the calculation of scan deviation: A signal strength of 1 should NOT be the same as being able to warp directly to the target. c) Increase sensor strength of ferret and observator probe, but also increase their deviation d) Other solution: Double the probability of finding a target without changing the signal strenght. e) Introduce a new high-range probe, which only gives a note of all (non-cloaked) ships in system, but without being able to warp to (already proposed by Joerd) f) Reduce vulnerability of drones! Perhaps you can increase the scan strength or introduce a scan vulnerability modifier. - With a scan vulnerability modifier you can also balance the vulnerability of capital ships better. g) Complete redesign of the faction probes: Reduce them to 4 probes, which can scan only deadspace signatures. Remove the faction-part. Increase their scan range to the old values. All 4 probes should be able to find a deadspace signature with the same probability, but with much different deviation.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.22 17:53:00 - [214] Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 22/11/2006 14:09:16 When combining multiple probes the strength of them seems to follow the following formula: *Compound strength = (probe A str + probe B str + ... + probe X str) / (probe A str mult probe B str mult * ... * probe X str mult) How is range to target tied in to this? If you simply slot the compound strength into the existing single-probe equation, what values do you use for probe range and range to target? Originally by:** Helison BALANCING OF SCAN PROBES Used terms: vulnerability = Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength Current problems ) Too low scan deviation ) Too low sensor strength of high-distance probes ) Drones are too easy to be found: A Domi has as an example a vulnerability of 19, the Ogre a vulnerability of 100. So if you want to find a Domi, which is running mission, you just have to scan for drones. ) Faction probes have a too low scan range (but would be too powerful for finding ships if the have a higher range) ) Too many sorts of faction probes, too many probes required for locating a deadspace signature. My proposals (not all are cumulative):* a) No warp to 0 for scan results! 15 km is really enough! b) Change the calculation of scan deviation: A signal strength of 1 should NOT be the same as being able to warp directly to the target. c) Increase sensor strength of ferret and observator probe, but also increase their deviation d) Other solution: Double the probability of finding a target without changing the signal strenght. e) Introduce a new high-range probe, which only gives a note of all (non-cloaked) ships in system, but without being able to warp to (already proposed by Joerd) f) Reduce vulnerability of drones! Perhaps you can increase the scan strength or introduce a scan vulnerability modifier. - With a scan vulnerability modifier you can also balance the vulnerability of capital ships better. g) Complete redesign of the faction probes: Reduce them to 4 probes, which can scan only deadspace signatures. Remove the faction-part. Increase their scan range to the old values. All 4 probes should be able to find a deadspace signature with the same probability, but with much different deviation. I certainly agree with f) (and e), obviously) but I'm not sure that the current exploration probe system is a problem; the space you're hunting should hopefully inform your probe choice, and the reduced volume of probes makes it feasible to spam Quests all over the system and then run several analyses until you find something. It does make it slightly more grind-y, but I'm not convinced it needs a total overhaul yet.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.22 18:27:00 - [215] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 22/11/2006 14:09:16 When combining multiple probes the strength of them seems to follow the following formula: *Compound strength = (probe A str + probe B str + ... + probe X str) / (probe A str mult probe B str mult * ... * probe X str mult)** How is range to target tied in to this? If you simply slot the compound strength into the existing single-probe equation, what values do you use for probe range and range to target? Haven't figured out everything yet :) I would say is something like if we use 2x 20au probes, one is 10 au away from the target and the other 15 au. Using the 10 au probe alone results in a signal strength of 0.5, using the 15 au probe results in a signal strength of 0.4 The compound strenght would be (0.5 + 0.4)/((XA)(X*B) Where X is a constant for 20 au probes (somewhere the in the area of 1.035) and A and B are range modifiers to this value. But the exact value of the constant and the range modifiers are things I have yet to determine. Also the accuracy seems to have some strange properties like min scan deviation, but I haven't run enough test to be sure yet. Example using 2x 20 au probes, both a 16.4au range looking for a scorp resulted in a signal strength of 1.08 and accuracy in the 500km-1000km range. Adding a 3rd 20 au probe at 16.4 au increased strength to around 1.45 but no change to accuracy.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.22 18:50:00 - [216] Ah, gotcha - thought strength meant scan strength not signal strength, my bad :) Is it possible that it's just giving you the deviation you'd get if you used a single probe, so it's considering multiple probes for sig strength but not for deviation?
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.22 19:17:00 - [217] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Ah, gotcha - thought strength meant scan strength not signal strength, my bad :) Is it possible that it's just giving you the deviation you'd get if you used a single probe, so it's considering multiple probes for sig strength but not for deviation? Tried that but no doesn't fit. For this test it was 1/3rd of the expected max deviation, I ran 10 test and they where all in the 500-1000km range. While it could be a coincidence I doubt it.
Donna Darko	Posted - 2006.11.22 23:11:00 - [218] Originally by: Hoshi The covert finds the gate and the pilgrim/arazu goes in cloaked to tackle you. Wishful thinking. Missions with gates have a "beacon" and the warp-in point that will decloak you, as well as clouds that will decloak you. Like someone said, they just have to move from the warp-in point and they're not sitting ducks anymore. Stories.
Donna Darko	Posted - 2006.11.22 23:20:00 - [219] Originally by: Helison a) No warp to 0 for scan results! 15 km is really enough! ... e) Introduce a new high-range probe, which only gives a note of all (non-cloaked) ships in system, but without being able to warp to (already proposed by Joerd) f) Reduce vulnerability of drones! Perhaps you can increase the scan strength or introduce a scan vulnerability modifier. a) You only warp to 0 on certain items because that's what you set your default warp to distance to. You can also right-click results and warp to 15/100. e) No, God, please no! You already recognized there are way too many probes now. Having another just adds to the number of items to have with you, and, as I said before, I'd rather not have to use an industrial to scan things. f) Being able to use 1 probe to clean the whole system of stray probes is economically viable, as t1 won't pay much anyway if you resell or refine. I would rather keep it that way. I agree that t2 probes could do with what you suggest, and currently-player-controlled drones should be even harder to find, to accomodate the Domi with drones scenario. Stories.
Eewec Ourbyni Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.23 00:06:00 - [220] OK, had a reasonable glance through the thread and didn't spot this, so I hope I didn't miss it, but is there a comparison of which mods/probes exist in the current system against their kali counterparts.... don't want to start looking at these only to find I'm trying to stick a Kali probe into an RMR probe launcher. As you might guess I'm only just getting into the whole probe thing. This is a sig... -- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio -- ... good, ain't it!

Reachok Amarr Low Grade Ore The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.23 01:01:00 - [221] I'm testing the scan probes and have encountered an apparent problem: the snoop scan probe seems to dissappear before the scan timer winds down, then leaves me with the message, "You need to launch scan probes". Am I doing something wrong or are they broken currently?
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.23 01:10:00 - [222] Originally by: Donna Darko Originally by: Helison a) No warp to 0 for scan results! 15 km is really enough! ... e) Introduce a new high-range probe, which only gives a note of all (non-cloaked) ships in system, but without being able to warp to (already proposed by Joerd) f) Reduce vulnerability of drones! Perhaps you can increase the scan strength or introduce a scan vulnerability modifier. a) You only warp to 0 on certain items because that's what you set your default warp to distance to. You can also right-click results and warp to 15/100. It¦s clear that this is possible. But I think that probing is too easy, when you are able to warp at 0 to the target. Even 15km ist still too close in most scenarios. The reason why I don¦t like warp to 0 is that CCP intended to make it possible to probe cloaked ships. If you warp to 0 to a cloaked ship it would decloak immediatly. Quote: e) No, God, please no! You already recognized there are way too many probes now. Having another just adds to the number of items to have with you, and, as I said before, I'd rather not have to use an industrial to scan things. For ship scanning you don¦t need many probes. Normally snoop probes and a few long-range probes are enough. For deadspace scanning you need many more probes and they take much more space. At the moment it seems like you would need masses of various quest probes, several sift probes and perhaps some pursuit and comb probes. Quote: f) Being able to use 1 probe to clean the whole system of stray probes is economically viable, as t1 won't pay much anyway if you resell or refine. I would rather keep it that way. I agree that t2 probes could do with what you suggest, and currently-player-controlled drones should be even harder to find, to accomodate the Domi with drones scenario. I don¦t think it¦s possible for CCP to differentiate between active and abandoned drone. If it is, this would be great. Otherwise drones (except fighters) should not be more vulnerable than frigs.
Sunaria	Posted - 2006.11.23 01:13:00 - [223] I finally found something with exploration, a coral rock formation ... well 7 low value drones spawn there, I kill them and fetch the loot salvage the wrecks ... So I'm sitting there ... spoiled like 20 a 25 racial probes ... what to do now. Ok so I started exploring my options. - I lock the formation and start shooting it ... 0.0 damage - lets fetch a miner ... I head back with iteron fitted with salvager and miner - lock and activate miner ... well doesn't work ... - lock and activate salvager ... well doesn't work either ... - basicly I'm out of frigging options wasted probably like 10 million in real tranquility isk on probes and have like nothing to show for it except a few low value alloys :( ... I felt really ripped of
Tangerine Gallente Four Horsemen	Posted - 2006.11.23 01:53:00 - [224] ive been playing about with the new probes and so far im a tad worried. Im 1 of those scavengers that likes scanning down deep space derelicts and i also supply deep space safespots for my corps carriers - question is 1 how do i find these deep safe derelics? and how do you now make a deep space safespot now the observators dont give a 90 au accuracy? for the life of me i cant figure this out :(
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.23 02:00:00 - [225] Originally by: Eewec Ourbyni OK, had a reasonable glance through the thread and didn't spot this, so I hope I didn't miss it, but is there a comparison of which mods/probes exist in the current system against their kali counterparts.... don't want to start looking at these only to find I'm trying to stick a Kali probe into an RMR probe launcher. As you might guess I'm only just getting into the whole probe thing. The probes you have on TQ right now are for ship probing in kali, so you will need to get new for exploration. The probe launcher you have now on TQ is for exploration and moon survey on Kali, while it can still be used for ship scanning it is sub par in doing so. So you will have to get a new. Originally by: Reachok I'm testing the scan probes and have encountered an apparent problem: the snoop scan probe seems to dissappear before the scan timer winds down, then leaves me with the message, "You need to launch scan probes". Am I doing something wrong or are they broken currently? First of all make sure you use a Recon Probe Launcher I and not a Scan probe Launcher I, the scan probe launcher is for exploration probes. The Recon Probe Launcher have a base scan time for 120 sec while the snoop probes survive for 300 sec. Scan probe launcher have a base scan time of 600 sec so there will be a problem if you try to use that and don't have very good skills.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.23 02:07:00 - [226] Originally by: Tangerine ive been playing about with the new probes and so far im a tad worried. Im 1 of those scavengers that likes scanning down deep space derelicts and i also supply deep space safespots for my corps carriers - question is 1 how do i find these deep safe derelics? and how do you now make a deep space safespot now the observators dont give a 90 au accuracy? for the life of me i cant figure this out :( You scan them down with an Observator Deep Space Probe. You might just need to scan several times before you find the target (20+ if it's a shuttle or small frig, 4-5 if it's a BS), make sure you train the Astrometric Triangulation skill. Once you get a result it will be within 20.000 km from the target so just warp there and drop a 5 au probe. It's no longer possible to create new deep safes from scratch. There either needs to be objects sitting in a deep safe for you to scan for or if you have 2-3 deep safes in a system you can create as many new as you want by warping between them and create BMs in space. I suggest you get too it and create a large set for you self.
Tangerine Gallente Four Horsemen	Posted - 2006.11.23 02:35:00 - [227] ok i get the deep safe spot bit (tad cheesed now) but with my derelict hunting are u saying i gotta sit in a system for 20+ scans just to find out if their is anything in the system worth scavaging? What i mean is am im going to have to run multiple scans with the obs to get a complete list of ships in space and maybe still find nothing (lots of time wasted) whereas atm i can just search for each type and know if their is anything worth getting or nothing at all (i usually just scan for indys and cruisers)? Hope u get what i mean.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.23 03:07:00 - [228] Originally by: Tangerine ok i get the deep safe spot bit (tad cheesed now) but with my derelict hunting are u saying i gotta sit in a system for 20+ scans just to find out if their is anything in the system worth scavaging? What i mean is am im going to have to run multiple scans with the obs to get a complete list of ships in space and maybe still find nothing (lots of time wasted) whereas atm i can just search for each type and know if their is anything worth getting or nothing at all (i usually just scan for indys and cruisers)? Hope u get what i mean. That is correct, but each scan takes much less time now. With prefect skills and t2 rigs you can bring it down to 22 sec per scan. Keep the pace up and you can do 20 scans in less than 10 min. And you can also scan for drones and cans which should make it easier to find the spots as well.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.23 03:56:00 - [229] Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Tangerine ok i get the deep safe spot bit (tad cheesed now) but with my derelict hunting are u saying i gotta sit in a system for 20+ scans just to find out if their is anything in the system worth scavaging? What i mean is am im going to have to run multiple scans with the obs to get a complete list of ships in space and maybe still find nothing (lots of time wasted) whereas atm i can just search for each type and know if their is anything worth getting or nothing at all (i usually just scan for indys and cruisers)? Hope u get what i mean. That is correct, but each scan takes much less time now. With prefect skills and t2 rigs you can bring it down to 22 sec per scan. Keep the pace up and you can do 20 scans in less than 10 min. And you can also scan for drones and cans which should make it easier to find the spots as well. Have you any evidence, that it is possible to scan for cans?
Donna Darko	Posted - 2006.11.23 05:19:00 - [230] Originally by: Helison I don¦t think it¦s possible for CCP to differentiate between active and abandoned drone. Can you loot someone else's probe when they launch it? :) Nope, so they can differentiate. Stories.

Rath Etzam	Posted - 2006.11.23 08:07:00 - [231] Originally by: Donna Darko Originally by: Helison I don¦t think it¦s possible for CCP to differentiate between active and abandoned drone. Can you loot someone else's probe when they launch it? :) Nope, so they can differentiate. Can you scoop them to drone bay or cargo while the owner is still within control range?
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.23 12:11:00 - [232] Originally by: Donna Darko e) No, God, please no! You already recognized there are way too many probes now. Having another just adds to the number of items to have with you, and, as I said before, I'd rather not have to use an industrial to scan things. Missing the point. A "system summary" probe would mean you can just pop one probe per system initially to see if there's anything worth probing for, and if not you can move on without wasting any probes. If you're serious about looking for stuff it'd significantly cut down on your probe use. Originally by: Helison At the moment it seems like you would need masses of various quest probes, several sift probes and perhaps some pursuit and comb probes. Faction probe sizes were cut down significantly in the last set of changes, so you can now carry plenty in your hold. My only concern there is on their price.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.23 12:16:00 - [233] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Donna Darko e) No, God, please no! You already recognized there are way too many probes now. Having another just adds to the number of items to have with you, and, as I said before, I'd rather not have to use an industrial to scan things. Missing the point. A "system summary" probe would mean you can just pop one probe per system initially to see if there's anything worth probing for, and if not you can move on without wasting any probes. If you're serious about looking for stuff it'd significantly cut down on your probe use. Sounds like a very nice probe to me, might even have them show up on the systemmap but not warpable so you can see if he is sitting within 40au or if you need to use observators. Right now the 40 au probes seems a bit wasted because if you know where they are you can get at least close enough for a 20au and if you don't know then you really need to use observators as you have no idea if a 40au will reach or not.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.23 12:47:00 - [234] Originally by: Helison Have you any evidence, that it is possible to scan for cans? Hmm interesting. When Kali first came up on sisi one of the scan groups was named "containers" and you could use it to find secure cans. Now this group has been renamed to "Scrap" and I have no idea what it finds (wreaks don't show up at least and neither do cans).
Zebler Four Horsemen	Posted - 2006.11.23 18:44:00 - [235] I've got a question about the timing of probes (yes I am new to covert ops, so bear with me) I think a target vessel should need to be stationary (read not in warp), and present at the start of the scan, during the scan, and still be there at the end of the scan to get a result. Is this actually the case. What happens in the following situations? Situation 1 - you are trying to find a hostile that is in scan range of your chosen probes, he sees your probes and warps off. Good for him. But his mate warps in to the original safespot. Your probes are already in space, and your now new target vessel was not present at the time the probes were launched. When the scan completes will it find him? I have a feeling it will, is that fair? Situation 2 - you have someone bouncing between SS. He is stationary in the SS as you start the scan, but leaves the scan range when he bounces off and goes somewhere else. He returns before the scan is complete back to the original SS. Does the probe find him? If probes can actually find ships under the above conditions, then the probe scan times do not make sense. The ships in the above situations were not present for the full scan time and should not be located?
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.23 20:26:00 - [236] Only thing that matters is if the target are inside the bubble the instant the scan finish. You could even have a target warping through the bubble and the scanner will point you to the point in space he where at the time the scan finished. So in #1 you will find his mate and in #2 you will find him. Guess he should be a bit more careful about where he is warping :)
Zebler Four Horsemen	Posted - 2006.11.24 10:24:00 - [237] Yeah, I had a feeling it would work like that :( The whole point of a scan time is due to the vastness of space that needs to be searched. Does not really make sense that when a ship shows up at the last second (in an area that may have already been scanned) that it is suddenly found. Oh well, cannot have it all.
Triksterism	Posted - 2006.11.24 10:48:00 - [238] observatory deep space probes seem like they can ***** deep safes really easily 1 problem though - i can see no way to make deep safes anymore as the scan deviation of the old probe was 92AU and the deviation of the new ODSP is 20,000km if deep safes can no longer be made then should old safes still be allowed or is there another way that i have not found yet also the description of probes still say 192au, 48au etc but the attributes have changed to 20, 40 au etc - will this be changed (sorry if this has been mentioned already but i didnt read all previous 7 pages)
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.24 11:32:00 - [239] I have found a lot of informations on ship scanning, almost none on cosmic signature. Someone has done extensive testing on those? In particular I need to know: 1) It is possible to get some results with the probes available at less than Astrosurvey 5? 2) What are the probes needed for Cosmic signature scanning? 3) The range from the nearest warpable point (belt, moon, planet, ecc.) of the signatures that have been found. 4) The strength of the signature. 5) Average number of try before finding a signature. I know it is a serious list, but as I am currently training astrosurvey 4 on sisi and just completed it on Tranquility I need to know what I need for the search for the profession complex to get daqtacores and data interfaces.
ZZandra Amarr Gallente Federal Bank Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.24 11:40:00 - [240] I want to know if my cloaked Pilgrim can be found. Can it? Or can they just find the general area and I will still basically be safe?

Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.24 11:48:00 - [241] There is 1 more reason to remove deeps safes. Currently there are people that have safes that are more than 1000 au away. Upto around 1500 au. Those spots are impossible to probe as observator probes only have 1000 au range...
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.24 12:17:00 - [242] Originally by: Venkul Mul I have found a lot of informations on ship scanning, almost none on cosmic signature. Someone has done extensive testing on those? In particular I need to know: 1) It is possible to get some results with the probes available at less than Astrosurvey 5? 2) What are the probes needed for Cosmic signature scanning? 3) The range from the nearest warpable point (belt, moon, planet, ecc.) of the signatures that have been found. 4) The strength of the signature. 5) Average number of try before finding a signature. I know it is a serious list, but as I am currently training astrosurvey 4 on sisi and just completed it on Tranquility I need to know what I need for the search for the profession complex to get daqtacores and data interfaces. ad 1) It is possible, but very unlikly. You would have to hundreds of scans to have any success. And this still won¦t bring you directly to the target (don¦t know the exact deviation of the snoop probe atm) ad 2) For Deadspace Signature scanning you need the factional probes like Radar Sift or Gravimetric Pursuit. According to my tests you need to use at least Quest and Sift Probes from each faction, if you really want to probe for stuff. And you have to take yourself several hours of time. Attention, there is another sort of signature, the Cosmic Agent Site Signature. This one is found in 0.0 COSMOS constellations and can be found with using "normal" probes like a snoop probe or ferret probe. ad 3) Till now i¦ve found and hunted down 4 deadspace signature and 2 Cosmic Agent Site Signatures. The deadspace signatures were all between 1.5 AU and 3 AU of the next stellar object. But if there would have been signatures outside of the 4 AU-radius, I would not have found them (because of the probes). One of the Cosmic Agent Site Signatures had a much bigger distance from the next planet, it was between 5 and 10 AU away from the next object. ad 4) Using the correct Sift probe I got signal strengths for the deadspace signatures of 4.0, 2.0 and 0.5 (the last one was a gas cloud). ad 5) Varies extremly. I used several hours and 40-50 probes to pinpoint 3 deadspace signatures in the last 2 days. The scans were above 100, but havn¦t counted. With better plans you should be able to reduce the numbers a bit, but it remains tiring. Specially if you want to check for gas clouds you will need many scans (or much luck).
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.24 12:42:00 - [243] @TomB (I hope you read this): A few questions regarding your locked posts: 1) Cloaked ships: Do you still intend to make it possible to probe for them? 2) Balance of probes, specially of signal strength, inaccuracy and "warp to 0": Please look into this once again (look at my post on the last page), will you do any changes? 3) Directional scanning: WHY are you making it nearly impossible to scan for hidden roid belts (roids of a regular belt, which are outside of the grid)? You are removing content with this nerf. WHY are you making it impossible to scan in complexes, if the Overseer has already respawned? This will make it easier for complex-campers and more difficult for others, who don¦t run the plex all the time. And if I can scan on directional scanner if there are PC ships in a belt, why shall it be impossible to check if there are NPC ships? 4) Please make a Devblog out of your post, so that all players can read it.
Braaage eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.24 15:33:00 - [244] Edited by: Braaage on 24/11/2006 15:33:32 Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So basicly safespotting remains the Uber and anyone who has managed to create an off grid safespot 10 warps out from any point of the system is sill impossible to find and kill? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There will be a probe with almost unlimited range, it's not the best but it will be able to find ships that have gone to far into space. And it will be able to work alone, like all probes will. The Observator Deep space probe no longer scans the entire system so there's no probe AT ALL in game to find deep safe spots. ___________________________________________ http://www.eve-tutor.com Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.24 15:42:00 - [245] Update: New mirror on sisi which means any probe skill you trained there is gone. Add this the fact that the nither the new probes skills nor the new probes are seeded any more on sisi and the fact that all spots with ships/bms etc I had setup to test it are gone. Basically it just become VERY hard to do more probe testing there. Oh and the 2 major probe bugs (right click and warp to on results on system map takes you to the wrong results and the fact that you can launch a probe is another probe is completely inside its scan radius) are still there.
Eveanne Gallente Sperm Trumpet Industries	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:48:00 - [246] Red <---> Green The new scan probe results are completely bass-ackwards Green should be for a good probe and Red for a bad/unreliable one. Having it the other way round is totally counter-intuitive and needs to be changed. 10q x E
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.24 16:56:00 - [247] Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 24/11/2006 16:56:46 Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 24/11/2006 15:47:59 Update: New mirror on sisi which means any probe skill you trained there is gone. Add this the fact that the nither the new probes skills nor the new probes are seeded any more on sisi and the fact that all spots with ships/bms etc I had setup to test it are gone. Basically it just become VERY hard to do more probe testing there. Oh and the 2 major probe bugs (right click and warp to on results on system map takes you to the wrong results and the fact that you can launch a probe so another probe is completely inside its scan radius) are still there. Aye, makes it pretty hard to test any more without the time reduction skill in particular. Oh well.
Donna Darko	Posted - 2006.11.24 22:52:00 - [248] Edited by: Donna Darko on 24/11/2006 22:52:19 Do you think we can convince them to finally add the circles for the directional scanner in the tactical overview (or something)? example P.S. TomB I love you! (for the BPOs on the market) Stories.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.24 23:24:00 - [249] Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 24/11/2006 23:23:41 Originally by: Donna Darko Edited by: Donna Darko on 24/11/2006 22:52:19 Do you think we can convince them to finally add the circles for the directional scanner in the tactical overview (or something)? example P.S. TomB I love you! (for the BPOs on the market) Circles are limited utility though. A 3D cone on system map would be much better.
Donna Darko	Posted - 2006.11.25 00:17:00 - [250] It would be a start... :) Stories.

Ratzap Gallente Old Farts	Posted - 2006.11.25 01:22:00 - [251] Looks like the fun new probes are all going in with a requirement of Astrometrics 5 too... 13 days is a fairly high bar to allow people to fiddle with exploration (which TomB stated the new probes are made for). Ratzap
Ultimate Poison	Posted - 2006.11.27 00:31:00 - [252] bump. No idea why this thread was unlocked.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.27 07:47:00 - [253] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 27/11/2006 07:49:11 I have found a serious problem: On tranquility I have just done a COSMOS mission requiring to find the hidden warpgate to Jakela Plantation in the system Hjoramold. It was pretty easy to find with the 3 AU probes. As it was still open in Sisi with the last mirror, I tried to find the warpgate with the new probes and Astrometrics 4. So far I have used 5 Fathom, 2 Spook and 11 snoop, and done at least 30 scans without finding the gate. Similarly I can't find the warpgate on the directional scanner. Looking the list of item you can scan for I suppose a warpgate should be a structure. Some of you has an idea or suggestion on how it is possible to resolve this impasse, or can scan the system to see if the warpgate can be found only with the highest tyer probes? If you find it I would be VERY interested to know the signal strenght and the distance at wich you have detected the warpgate. TY for any help.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.27 08:20:00 - [254] To add to the above post, while scanning for structures, I had some drone build structures and NPC drones at about 100 km. None of the drone build structures where displaied on the scanning results. So what are the structures we can scan for?
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.27 12:03:00 - [255] Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 27/11/2006 07:49:11 I have found a serious problem: On tranquility I have just done a COSMOS mission requiring to find the hidden warpgate to Jakela Plantation in the system Hjoramold. It was pretty easy to find with the 3 AU probes. As it was still open in Sisi with the last mirror, I tried to find the warpgate with the new probes and Astrometrics 4. So far I have used 5 Fathom, 2 Spook and 11 snoop, and done at least 30 scans without finding the gate. Similarly I can't find the warpgate on the directional scanner. Looking the list of item you can scan for I suppose a warpgate should be a structure. Some of you has an idea or suggestion on how it is possible to resolve this impasse, or can scan the system to see if the warpgate can be found only with the highest tyer probes? If you find it I would be VERY interested to know the signal strenght and the distance at wich you have detected the warpgate. TY for any help. You need exploration probes for that sort of thing I think - normal ship-hunting probes simply aren't strong enough Also, I believe "structures" finds POS structures mainly.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.27 12:25:00 - [256] So to do a scan for a warpgate that I could find on tranquility with Astrometrics at 3 now I need Astromerics at 5? I hope the pay for the mission will increase proportionally. And if the probes requiring Astrometrics 5 are required to find warpgates (as soon as I am home I will try them on know warpgates) and structures at 100 km most of the new missions are for players highly skilled in the field. Cheer.
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.27 12:35:00 - [257] Yup, that's my understanding. Hire someone with astrometrics to help you ;)
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.27 12:43:00 - [258] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 27/11/2006 12:44:50 Originally by: Joerd Toastius Yup, that's my understanding. Hire someone with astrometrics to help you ;) It is agood suggestion, but with the track records of ganking in missions, tricks based on forming a gang with wardecced people ecc., ecc., were do you think it will be possible to find someone trustworty? and usually the pay for the mission (at least in the Minmatar COSMOS requirig astrometrics I have done) is almost too low to pay for the probes, even less interesting if you must pay decently another player. Obviously I am totally trustworty, but how can the other player have faith in me if he don't know me? BTW: you have written a Guide on Revelation Scanning as I have read? Can you give me a link? TY
Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.27 12:56:00 - [259] Fair point, I guess. I suppose you'll just have to try and find someone with a good rep or something... The guide you're after is here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=431586 Most of it's Hoshi's work, I just tacked on the exploration-specific bits :)
Sunaria	Posted - 2006.11.27 15:22:00 - [260] about the directional scanner .. if you press F10 ... or was it F11 now, well one of those, the universe uptil solarsystem bar appears on the right. If you look at the system icon on the bottom you'll notice the scancircle we have now in dragon. I hope this helps with the directional scan issue you guys are going on about ?

Joerd Toastius Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2006.11.27 15:53:00 - [261] Oh awesome, they've finally fixed the "white background" bug


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