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Confirm/Deny: All T1 Expanded Cargohold BPOs are now T2

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Cez	Posted - 2006.11.11 16:17:00 - [241] I think what most here want is a fair and reasonable outcome. So to make some issues a bit more clear, I'll try and estimate what exactly we are dealing with here. First, lets look at the ones effected by this. For all purposes we'll just be looking at the cargo expander bpo before the change. Owner Group - Those that currently owned the t1 cargo exp bpo - estimating 20 owners (if it relates to all the t2 owners) - able to produce a rare t1 bpo unlike any other in mass quanities. - able to copy and sell mulitple runs of bpo at high prices Research Group - Those that were told where to expect the cargo t2 bpo - estimating kindly 5,000 people - some doing the missions, some letting the RPS rise daily, but ALL expecting a lottery Copy Group - Those who bought t1 bpc's at high prices. - no idea on the estimate of those here, perhaps 250. Lets now place a time value on the groups. 1. Owner Group... if each has played 3 years, gives us 60 years of game time 2. Research Group.... estimated average of 1 year in research, gives us 5000 years of research time 3. Copy Group... lets give them 2 years of gameplay each, so 500 years of game time They way I perceive the numbers is about 5500 years of player game and research time to the ones who got nothing from this change compared to about 60 years game time for the t1 bpo owners. That to me is pretty extreme. Now lets look at a fairness scale from 1-10... 5 being fair and how things were before changes. 1. Owner Group - made out the best. After making billions they get to turn in now so much more wealth... they jump from 5 to 10. 2. Research Group - after years of research, hours of dedication to a system they were told would be in place... they get nothing. They have gone from 5 to 1. 3. Copy Group - they spend million on copies, quite possibly profited, however, there bpcs stay t1 and become far less valuable. They have gone from 5 to 2. Numbers are quite extreme when you look at those involved and those who came out on top. Invention is not yet proven... it is still another step your core group of players has to go thru. They already wasted time in research, do you think invention and more time would make them happy? I'll footnote this as all estimates and assumptions, but it does give you an idea. Most agree, a fair and reasonable outcome should of been handing over LIMITED t2 bpcs to the already t1 bpo AND bpc owners. And then seeding t1 bpos in the market... and finally going thru the lottery as we all expected.
Kazuo Ishiguro Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2006.11.11 16:55:00 - [242] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro This has actually worked out quite nicely for me- I just accepted a courier mission with a 150m collateral that I wouldn't quite have been able to complete without one. Once I'm done, I can resell it, so no great inconvenience. Resold for 101m [while there were several available on escrow for 65m]. An historic first? I sent the buyer a polite eve-mail thanking him for his purchase. ---------- Racer in the ISGC Frigate League
Driven Caldari Mass Produced Venturi Starea	Posted - 2006.11.11 16:56:00 - [243] Its been over a day now and not a word of explanation from Dear Leader. Lets see how long the cover-up and stonewalling of this FUBAR act by CCP will continue.
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.11.11 17:47:00 - [244] Well it looks like along with them all pretty hung over from Fan Fest and the new merger with White Wolf... CCP can afford to lose a few disgruntled subscribers. I don't expect an asnwer from any of them until atleast Monday. We wouldn't want to ruin their weekend... and if they do respond, don't expect much other than "What is done is done." CCP has grown mainly due to their fans and players, and its those same fans and players they are now snubbing. Greed has got into the bloods of all the devs... profits and parties are now more important than honor and dedication. I feel left behind but such a great company that once stood for its mass of players. I saw it coming, slowly they made bad decisions for the game, and better decisions for their wallets. Its the same ole story... feed them, **** them, forget them.
Spaja Saist Gallente Knights of Retribution	Posted - 2006.11.11 17:56:00 - [245] Originally by: robacz I wonder why so many ppl don't like it? Two unreleased T2 mods will come into game, T1 BPOs will be most likely seeded, prices of named T1 counterparts will drop significantly. Everyone is happy. Old T1 BPOs had to be upgraded becose many owners paid billions for them. It would be very unfair to make their investments worthless. They didn't pay billions for those BPOs so try another excuse.
Oolok	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:37:00 - [246] Originally by: Spaja Saist Originally by: robacz I wonder why so many ppl don't like it? Two unreleased T2 mods will come into game, T1 BPOs will be most likely seeded, prices of named T1 counterparts will drop significantly. Everyone is happy. Old T1 BPOs had to be upgraded becose many owners paid billions for them. It would be very unfair to make their investments worthless. They didn't pay billions for those BPOs so try another excuse. And if they did, they don't deserve the Tech II BPO at all. They didn't run R&D agents, they didn't win in the lottery. They bought it as a speculation or a "low production cost cash cow". No reason CCP has to protect that, they did it anyway
Voltron Caldari Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.11 19:40:00 - [247] Edited by: Voltron on 11/11/2006 19:41:23 Most ridiculous thing ever. However I've come to expect such ridiculosity from CCP ever since I found out their server logs don't record lag, lag is a game feature, we should be happy about lag and apparently some T1 bpos become T2 now; I own one T1 bpo, a celestis bpo. I expect it to magically become an arazu or lachesis original tomorrow after downtime thx. Volt Edited for spelling It's great touching your own dink isn't it?
MindDragon	Posted - 2006.11.11 20:50:00 - [248] Gah...This is so unfair...I think if the Star Trek Online game is better than this one, then CCP will lose tens of thousands of subscribers due to their total snubbage factor here. I can't believe that after WTFPWNing all these people doing RP that they will now walk around in their drunken stupor full of greed. They have to be better than this. COME ON CCP!!! FIX THIS NOW!!! MD ------ It's a very old problem. Allow me to explain. Jita has the best commercially available computer hardware in the world and it has its own node. Consider that for a moment. (Credit: Cmdr Sy)
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2006.11.11 22:43:00 - [249] Originally by: Silver Lady Originally by: BPO Polymerase Edited by: BPO Polymerase on 10/11/2006 08:37:04 Dear CCP, as I can see you are turning t1 BPOs into t2 by magic, I would like my Thorax BPO converted into a Deimos BPO please. Its currently being copied, inserted from my corps hangar. Kind regards, I am looking forward to hearing from you soon, and checking my hangar later. Did you get your thorax bpo from a R&D agent for research points like the cargo expander and shield boost amp bpo owners got theirs? Thought not, no deimos bpo for you. I grinded my ass off for my Miner II, I'd like that upgraded to the stripminer II since the Miner II have long since lived out it's usefulness with the arrival of barges. I think that's a fair claim considering the Shield Boost Amplifier people were handed the keys to the vault. Something's rotten with the state of the servers.
Futuri Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.11 22:56:00 - [250] Edited by: Futuri on 11/11/2006 22:56:34 Heh it's nice to see that although CCP don't care to explain themselves, they were kind enough to tip someone off before the BPO conversion: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=424733
Slave 58776	Posted - 2006.11.11 23:14:00 - [251] Originally by: Futuri Edited by: Futuri on 11/11/2006 22:56:34 Heh it's nice to see that although CCP don't care to explain themselves, they were kind enough to tip someone off before the BPO conversion: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=424733 You should get a job with the 'Inquirer'. I believe you should pass off such comments as 'opinion' though, it protects you from litigation in the future.
UGWidowmaker Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.11 23:57:00 - [252] do i get something out of my 450.000 RD points ccp ? or should i just leave rd buiz.. to others.. its all crap.. gg. this is bull. I will make your wife/mann a widow.
Driven Caldari Mass Produced Venturi Starea	Posted - 2006.11.12 01:08:00 - [253] i think what they are telling you, me, and everyone else who has invested time and effort into r&d is that we can stick our research points where the sun don't shine. they'll just keep right on doing whatever they feel like. remember, as they said in their presentation at fanfest, its all about the players.
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.11.12 02:07:00 - [254] Originally by: Futuri Edited by: Futuri on 11/11/2006 22:56:34 Heh it's nice to see that although CCP don't care to explain themselves, they were kind enough to tip someone off before the BPO conversion: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=424733 OMFG... yes, that does smell like yesterday's dirty diapers. Something stinks... and it looks like CCP.
Karodnotos Caldari SOM	Posted - 2006.11.12 03:28:00 - [255] So it seems i have been scammed. Thank you CCP. "150m is way too less" i said to myself. "Buy it before another one does!" was my second thought. Why dont they send an EVE-mail to the community when such extreme changes happen? Let me guess, they fear the CSPA service charge! Im sorry not to be a forum wh***, but maybe some infos in game would be a nice idea. I only was lucky not to spend a billion or so on a (almost) worthless BPO. And im lucky to not have bought my subscription a year in advance. _____________ Eve Wiki
MindDragon	Posted - 2006.11.12 03:36:00 - [256] This sort of thing makes me wonder what's next? Cov Ops can fly into POS undetected and plant a bomb? Cruiser can fit a T2 WTFPWN weapon to nerf any ship and there is only 10 in game owned by the elite? What is CCP going to screw up next to make it near impossible to actually get ahead even after a year of training and playing?? What is the point? I'm turning off auto renew and letting my subscriptions expire until CCP can figure out how to properly balance this game and make it actually playable. MD ------ It's a very old problem. Allow me to explain. Jita has the best commercially available computer hardware in the world and it has its own node. Consider that for a moment. (Credit: Cmdr Sy)
MindDragon	Posted - 2006.11.12 03:47:00 - [257] Here's the thing... If this is going to be a PVP game, and CCP is going to make all these changes for PVP'ers, then that's what this game should be. There should be no mining features, no industrial features, no other features to this game other than PVP ships and PVP stuff. Everything should cost like 100 isk and everyone should have 1 trillion isk in their bank account. All the upcoming changes all favor PVP players. There are NO protections for industrial players and NO consideration given to those players. CCP says well, no one is an industrialist so why should we care? I say all of us industrialist should go on strike and completely dry up all markets so that there is nothing left for these PVP'ers. After they go, "WTF???" maybe then CCP will get a friggen clue. It's almost impossible to even be an industrialist when one elite frigate can take down a massive freighter. It's really impossible to be an industrialist when you spend years accumulating and working on RP and find out it is all worthless. It is impossible to be an industrialist when there really is no consideration by CCP given to that whole field and every time we turn around CCP throws in another screw up for us to deal with. How can we be an industrialist when it's impossible to refuel and resupply stations when all it takes is one elite frigit to WTFPWN any transport ship we might have, including a freighter? And supposing that freighters were supposed to be nearly invulnerable, they can't resupply POS's anyway so what's the point of spending six months getting that skill? You see, none of this favors people doing industrial manufacturing. Think of it this way, if I was a corp, and I wanted to protect my factory, and I knew there were "bad guys" out there, do you seriously think I would send a freighter there that had practically a paper hull? No, I would build a freighter with 80 nerf guns on it and it would screw anything thrown at it. So why are there no fittings on a friggen freighter?? Why can't freighters supply stations? Why can't a T2 hauler be even harder to kill (like 99% resists?) Come on CCP make it more fair for RP and industrialist otherwise there will be no economy and I will actively encourage everyone to boycott until this is fixed. MD ------ It's a very old problem. Allow me to explain. Jita has the best commercially available computer hardware in the world and it has its own node. Consider that for a moment. (Credit: Cmdr Sy)
Jennifer Meek	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:38:00 - [258] Expanded Cargohold II BPO's were seeded with the lottery system. 2-3 years ago, random lucky people recieved their Expanded Cargohold I BPO offers. If they hung onto their BPO's, they have become Expanded Cargohold II bpos. What's the difference between that, and seeding Expanded Cargohold II bpo's with the lottery (again?) Would we be in this pickle if they would have released the Expanded Cargohold II BPO's instead of the Expanded Cargohold I BPO's 2-3 years ago? (Hint: yes). What is everyone complaining about? CCP said Expanded Cargohold II's were coming in RMR, they didn't say how they were coming in did they? I am sure everyone in here who is whining, would not be whining if they had the BPO. So this is just jealousy. Basically, whatever CCP does, they can't win.
Driven Caldari Mass Produced Venturi Starea	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:52:00 - [259] Originally by: Jennifer Meek Expanded Cargohold II BPO's were seeded with the lottery system. 2-3 years ago, random lucky people recieved their Expanded Cargohold I BPO offers.. Nonsense. They were awarded from missions not seeded with research agents. Originally by: Jennifer Meek If they hung onto their BPO's, they have become Expanded Cargohold II bpos. What's the difference between that, and seeding Expanded Cargohold II bpo's with the lottery (again?) Would we be in this pickle if they would have released the Expanded Cargohold II BPO's instead of the Expanded Cargohold I BPO's 2-3 years ago? (Hint: yes). Ridiculous. I really don't think you get the issue at all. Maybe you don't want to. Maybe your mind is clouded by the isk printing machine you have just been handed. Its a giant difference. You and other EC II bpo owners did zero to get them. CCP waved a magic wand. The issue is between what CCP said is the process = lottery vs. what they did = arbitrary. Originally by: Jennifer Meek What is everyone complaining about? CCP said Expanded Cargohold II's were coming in RMR, they didn't say how they were coming in did they?) Again, you don't get it and you clearly don't want to. CCP said they were coming in terms of the research lottery. Originally by: Jennifer Meek I am sure everyone in here who is whining, would not be whining if they had the BPO. So this is just jealousy.) Jealousy. Yeah thats it. Doesn't have anything to do with broken promises by CCP and their completely misleading the entire player population on the process. You're right. We are all just being petty. Originally by: Jennifer Meek Basically, whatever CCP does, they can't win. Nice attempt at repositioning the argument. Of course they could have won by following their own stated rules. Obviously. The fact that they didn't means that you and other EC II BPO owner did win - unfairly.
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:58:00 - [260] Originally by: Driven Nonsense. They were awarded from missions not seeded with research agents. Actually, your wrong. For a time missions gave out 4 BPO's and CE1's were not one of them. The Gall got Miner II's, the Amarr got EANMI's, Cal got SBAI's, and I dont remember what Minnies got but it was not the CE1. The CE1's were the first BPO's put though the lottery. Now I wished that I got one but I was not that lucky. They should have been T2 then and the T1 BPO's should have been seeded. It looks to me like CCP finally got around to fixing what they broke years ago. Oh, and if your quitting over this, can I have your stuff? svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Jennifer Meek	Posted - 2006.11.12 05:03:00 - [261] Originally by: Driven Nonsense. They were awarded from missions not seeded with research agents. "2005.07.11 11:27 Our research has been fruitful. If you're interested, I believe we could have a patentable Expanded Cargohold I Blueprint. Contact me as soon as possible if you're interested." If you don't know what your talking about, Best to keep quiet. Originally by: Driven Ridiculous. I really don't think you get the issue at all. Maybe you don't want to. Maybe your mind is clouded by the isk printing machine you have just been handed. ISK doesn't come from the NPC's exactly... Originally by: Driven Its a giant difference. You and other EC II bpo owners did zero to get them. CCP waved a magic wand. The issue is between what CCP said is the process = lottery vs. what they did = arbitrary. I did zero to get them? No, I spent months (years even) earning the ISK in order to buy one, And I have been looking to buy one since invention was announced. Originally by: Driven Again, you don't get it and you clearly don't want to. CCP said they were coming in terms of the research lottery. They did come in with Lottery, see above. Originally by: Driven Jealousy. Yeah thats it. Doesn't have anything to do with broken promises by CCP and their completely misleading the entire player population on the process. You're right. We are all just being petty. CCP Promised Expanded Cargohold II's. They are in. If they were released in the lottery (again), we would be in the same discussion of how the lottery system is broken and that the BPO owners did nothing and got uber bpos. Like I said, earlier... Originally by: Jennifer Meek Basically, whatever CCP does, they can't win.
Hockston Axe Amarr	Posted - 2006.11.12 05:53:00 - [262] Originally by: Jennifer Meek I am sure everyone in here who is whining, would not be whining if they had the BPO. So this is just jealousy. **** right. I'd like all my old cargo 1 BPC's transformed into cargo 2 BPC's. Less runs, less ME, whatever. Every other class of cargohold blueprint was upgraded, why not all the BPC's too?
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2006.11.12 06:20:00 - [263] You winers make me wanna lose my breakfast. This was the only frikking fair decision for CCP. Anyone who can't see that is a fool. What's really funny about this is Fredou getting rich despite himself really. I mean, his SBA BPO sat on escrow for six months while the poor bloke tried to get five or six billion for it. Now, you'd be lucky to get one for 10 times that amount. So, heh, the cash cow was waiting for anyone with the vision to pick it up and no-one did, including me sadly. Shall I moan and gripe about it? Hell no, I'll laugh and learn and move on. Grats to the boys who held on to their rare, inferior T1 lottery wins and got rich! Originally by: Ask Ninja Kill all the wolves you're gonna have a crapload of bunnies, and by bunnies I mean stupid people.
Skyy Caldari Veni-Vidi-Vici	Posted - 2006.11.12 06:30:00 - [264] ROFL... basically everyone is making a ton of assumptions on who, what, where, and why this was done and what was done in the past. However, the fact remains... whatever was done in the past, don't mean jack **. Tens of thousanads of players did research like they were told to do to get this t2 bpo. They put in weeks, months, years of missions and time... and they end up with NOTHING. Not even a shot at a lottery for the bpo. This is the real value here, the TIME... not the **ty billions of isk a bunch of flubber bubbas paid for the t1 bpo, and magically get it upgraded to t2. Thousands of players TIME... mixed in with CCP lies... topped off with your assumptions... not to mention no explantions or offical announcements... and the players are fed up. I can see you have no dignity or respect as to what is right or wrong.
Antithysis Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.12 06:48:00 - [265] I have a friend at fanfest who is going to see if he can get a stranglehold on one of the devs and have them explain. I'll keep you updated if he finds anything out. -------- Online: Sig Hijac Invulnerability Field
Deathdealerdoc	Posted - 2006.11.12 08:21:00 - [266] They changed over my micro cap battery 1 bpo to a junk small cap battery 1 bpo instead of the t2 variant like the expanded cargo hold 1s got. I suppose this is because the micro battery bpo II has already been seeded but sucks getting the shaft. Very frustrating.
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.11.12 14:34:00 - [267] Originally by: Deathdealerdoc They changed over my micro cap battery 1 bpo to a junk small cap battery 1 bpo instead of the t2 variant like the expanded cargo hold 1s got. I suppose this is because the micro battery bpo II has already been seeded but sucks getting the shaft. Very frustrating. Join the long list of thousands who got shafted... compared to the tiny dozen's of billionaires who came out with the pot of gold.
Dragy	Posted - 2006.11.12 14:40:00 - [268] In conclusion: if someone got of escrow cargohold expander I bpo few days ago ccp would change it to t2 ?
Peri Helion Amarr Omega Whiskey Tango Foxtrot	Posted - 2006.11.12 16:28:00 - [269] First, as a disclaimer I have no investment or personal intereset in either of these BPOs. It seems the CCP is in a tough spot on this. They want to make invention work, and to do that they needed to get T2 BPOs on the market. So the problem they had was to either take a course of action that would leave the current RARE T1 BPOs holders unhappy, or all the R&D investors who had been acruing the RPs for years. Personally, it is a no win situation. And I really have no idea how to quantify the amount of "suffering" each course of action would cause (but I imagine that CCP has some way of knowing how many players were accumulating R&D points in this category). So I have to assume CCP is acting in what they believe is the best interest of the players, except for three major issues. CCP is arbitrarily violating their own game mechanics through the magic conversion of T1 BPOs to T2. If there had been ANY reasonable expectation this was going to occur then the speculation and trade of T1 BPOs would have been common knowledge and nobody in their right mind would have had any reason to acrue RPs in this area in the hopes of a T2 ECH BPO. Since there was no stated expectation, this means of getting T2 BPOs into the game violates the trust that the players place in the all powerful game developers that they will not simply act in unforseeable/arbitrary means against the games existing expectations. Second, the timing of the changes is really perplexing. Apparently the T2 ECH on Sisi is no better than a LHE, currently @ 27.5%. So people are in TQ buying up T2 expanders at exhorbitant rates, will they be the next to get screwed by the change? Having bought it at premiums only to see it nerfed? And then there are the few who unloaded the magically converted Basic BPOs as T1 BPOs to the unknowing/unwitting who did not know about the magic conversion of T1 to T2. Again, due to the timing another travesty perpetrated upon the community. Lastly, even with the FF going on this is a business. Therefore I am sure somebody is monitoring this thread and the fact that CCP has chosen not to post isnt because their is nobody to post, but because they do not want to. This change has already been in for too long to undo so we all might just as well live with it.
Peri Helion Amarr Omega Whiskey Tango Foxtrot	Posted - 2006.11.12 16:34:00 - [270] Originally by: Dragy In conclusion: if someone got of escrow cargohold expander I bpo few days ago ccp would change it to t2 ? No, because if you had it before the magic conversion, it would be a T2BPO already. If you did get one a couple of days ago, but AFTER the conversion, you bought a magically converted Basic Cargo Expander that became a T1. So I hope you didnt pay too much.

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