Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [11] 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 24 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
MechaJeb Kerman
Karma Core
9
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 13:33:38 -
[301] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote: What if this was also done on all drone types...
Sentry Salvage drone. Sentry Mining drone Sentry Web drone etc
Oh yes, Sentry ECM would be glorious. You get a permajam! And you get a permajam! EVERYBODY GETS A PERMAJAM!
|
Sven Viko VIkolander
Friends and Feminists
349
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 13:34:45 -
[302] - Quote
This is another good change IMO. Now all we need is another 10-20 small nerfs across the game and we should see a lot of the power creep of the last year or so removed and the game much improved. Let's see, up next, nerf the worm, nerf the garmur/orthrus, nerf links, etc. |
Leoric Firesword
Rolling Static Gone Critical
128
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 13:53:07 -
[303] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Can we just get rid of CRUISERS getting bonuses to BATTLESHIP weapons?
this Fozzie, this is your fix. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1172
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:11:08 -
[304] - Quote
perhaps the CSM could discuss reducing the amount of slots droneboats have beyond the -1 some of them have (guristas miraculously avoided this somehow) perhaps also encourage nerfing guristas too, the dps and amount of slots and tank is massively OP.
Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
|
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
464
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:11:38 -
[305] - Quote
I've gotta say I agree with a lot of the comments here. You keep nerfing sentries, but they aren't the problem, it's the hulls with bonus that make them OP. It would be like nerfing Stasis Web's because of Vindi's. You're making it so the ONLY way Sentries are viable, is on these platforms that are already, at least debatably, OP.
Ishtars are the problem. It's not Sentries. It's the fact that not only can a cruiser platform use a full flight of BS grade weapons, but it can do so while remaining kity and hard to catch. What the solution is I do not know, but I do know that nerfing Sentries only hurts all the other boats that don't have these bonuses. |
Aplysia Vejun
The Scope Gallente Federation
23
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:19:53 -
[306] - Quote
The slowest HAC is kitey and hard to catch?? |
Capt Malcolm Reynoldz
the 57th Overlanders Brigade
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:25:05 -
[307] - Quote
First things first - thank you Fozzie and team for continuing to work so hard to make EVE better for everyone. I truly believe your efforts are made with the best intentions and that your team seeks to only improve and not hurt the player experience.
Now - having said that, my thought on this subject is that drones NEED to be able to do better damage than other weapon systems simply because drones are vulnerable the minute they are launched and can be independently targeted and removed from the battlefield. Higher damage output for a shorter / limited engagement window. Risk vs Reward - just as it was intended to be in New Eden.
Most drone boat captains do put a secondary weapon system (with no hull bonus to that weapon in most cases) on their ship to help mitigate drone loss during battle, but those guns/launchers are supplemental damage. In most cases once you have killed my drones off the field you have cut my damage profile by over half and in some cases - all together. As drone boat captains we make the conscious decision to accept that we will lose our drones and will incur the cost needed to replace them.
In exchange for nerfing our primary DPS would you be willing to accept changes that allowed us to shoot your primary DPS off your ship?
(Overheat damage that you have to repair isn't a fair argument until you give me the ability to overheat my Drones....so don't go there.)
I doubt many would vote "yes" to that, so I have a hard time accepting changes that weaken our ability to fight. However, as Fozzie stated these are not intended to be the final changes to drones. I hope that if it is determined that these changes are detrimental to our ability to fight that corrections will be made.
The key word in all of the changes being made is "BALANCE". T3 Cruisers and T3 Destroyers all got some work done so I'll accept the changes and do my best to adjust like everyone else with the hopes that it is truly a "balancing" of the weapon systems and not the crowning of a new King. Not that drones are "king" by any stretch of the imagination.
Just wanted to put my two cents worth out there.
- Mal |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1820
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:27:47 -
[308] - Quote
Capt Malcolm Reynoldz wrote:First things first - thank you Fozzie and team for continuing to work so hard to make EVE better for everyone. I truly believe your efforts are made with the best intentions and that your team seeks to only improve and not hurt the player experience. Now - having said that, my thought on this subject is that drones NEED to be able to do better damage than other weapon systems simply because drones are vulnerable the minute they are launched and can be independently targeted and removed from the battlefield. Higher damage output for a shorter / limited engagement window. Risk vs Reward - just as it was intended to be in New Eden. Most drone boat captains do put a secondary weapon system ( with no hull bonus to that weapon in most cases) on their ship to help mitigate drone loss during battle, but those guns/launchers are supplemental damage. In most cases once you have killed my drones off the field you have cut my damage profile by over half and in some cases - all together. As drone boat captains we make the conscious decision to accept that we will lose our drones and will incur the cost needed to replace them. In exchange for nerfing our primary DPS would you be willing to accept changes that allowed us to shoot your primary DPS off your ship? ( Overheat damage that you have to repair isn't a fair argument until you give me the ability to overheat my Drones....so don't go there.) I doubt many would vote "yes" to that, so I have a hard time accepting changes that weaken our ability to fight. However, as Fozzie stated these are not intended to be the final changes to drones. I hope that if it is determined that these changes are detrimental to our ability to fight that corrections will be made. The key word in all of the changes being made is "BALANCE". T3 Cruisers and T3 Destroyers all got some work done so I'll accept the changes and do my best to adjust like everyone else with the hopes that it is truly a "balancing" of the weapon systems and not the crowning of a new King. Not that drones are "king" by any stretch of the imagination. Just wanted to put my two cents worth out there. - Mal
TLDR : Don't nerf me bro!!
|
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1089
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:35:10 -
[309] - Quote
my eft says currently with 3 ddas, an omni mid and an omni low: gardes 585 dps, 47+27 km, 0.049 rad/sec curators 551 dps, 82+18 km, 0.038 rad/sec
if these numbers are correct, I really don't get why gardes would be getting significant nerfing relative to other sentries. they look fairly useless to me. I would've expected a much larger gap in the damage between sentry types. I'm not a nullbabby and I don't really do F1 blobbing, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong or have messed up EFT or something.
I'm also still hoping ishtars can become usable in proper brawly fun setups, rather than just getting nerfed into nothing because shield kiting blob setups happens to be broken. seems unlikely though considering it's really slow and combat drones are still a joke unless you pay your 100m usable heavy drones tax. where's my 6th lowslot and rep amount bonus? |
James Spacecrawler
Phantom Space Sheep
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:37:00 -
[310] - Quote
So exploring the thought that Ishtars should lose their ability to field Sentries, should they receive massive railgun bonuses instead to be able to compete with the other long range HACs? Should the Deimos then become the drone boat instead? |
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1820
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:39:08 -
[311] - Quote
James Spacecrawler wrote:So exploring the thought that Ishtars should lose their ability to field Sentries, should they receive massive railgun bonuses instead to be able to compete with the other long range HACs? Should the Deimos then become the drone boat instead?
Technically they could get 2 short range HAC since caldari pretty much have 2 long range ones... |
Lister Vindaloo
5 Tons of Flax Unreachable
50
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:41:27 -
[312] - Quote
This change is really going to hurt the Myrm, sentry Myrms are great fun to fly and are OP but the tracking nerf is pretty harsh especially on gardes, they're pretty much I selects now, curators and bouncers will rule the roost, while we all try and figure out exactly what situation wardens are useful for?
Maybe raising the bandwidth for sentries to 30 and buffing bandwidth on hulls you want to launch a full flight along with much milder nerf to sentries themselves would be a less drastic solution
But please leave the Myrm with 4 :) |
Vivien Meally
Des-Meisters-Lakaien Brothers of Tangra
16
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:42:38 -
[313] - Quote
Sometime i think that CCP Fozzie wants to sabotage the game and CCP.
22,278 players online ... |
James Spacecrawler
Phantom Space Sheep
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:49:11 -
[314] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:James Spacecrawler wrote:So exploring the thought that Ishtars should lose their ability to field Sentries, should they receive massive railgun bonuses instead to be able to compete with the other long range HACs? Should the Deimos then become the drone boat instead? Technically they could get 2 short range HAC since caldari pretty much have 2 long range ones...
Yeah, I just read the bonuses for the Eagle. That's true then, making the Ishtar a brawling drone boat would still give it a unique feel among the other HACs. |
Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise
80
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 15:15:45 -
[315] - Quote
MechaJeb Kerman wrote:Amarisen Gream wrote: What if this was also done on all drone types...
Sentry Salvage drone. Sentry Mining drone Sentry Web drone etc
Oh yes, Sentry ECM would be glorious. You get a permajam! And you get a permajam! EVERYBODY GETS A PERMAJAM!
Would give you reasons to fit Back up "racial" arrays to your ship. so you can't get ECMed as often...
Or just limit their range. Player ECM is what 30-70km
A sentry ECM drone could have stats along the line of 20-50km
**A drone, ether mobile or fixed should not get the same benefits to EWAR as player controlled EWAR.
xoxo
Amarisen Gream
|
stoicfaux
5664
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 15:24:50 -
[316] - Quote
1. Nerf sentry drones. 2. Add BC with Drone links. 3. ??? Buff Ishtar, because Ishtar. 4. Profit!
Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
197
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 15:25:50 -
[317] - Quote
Miner Hottie wrote:Ok. Firstly: look at my corp history, I left the Swarm last week. Goon PVE Ishtars run heavy drones, Wasps to be specific, as they eat frigate rats for breakfast, which Wardens can't do, unless they are 70km away from the rat who has 0 transversal. I couldn't care less if you were a random gewn forum alt, or a random gullible person. Just don't crap on my ears, we all know the Ishtar is not close to the spread propagewnda wants us to believe.
Miner Hottie wrote:There are carriers and vindis and Rattlesnakes ratting in Deklein, but they are idiots. You get nearly as good a performance from a T2 Wasp equipped ishtar as a carrier, for far less risk. Now I really wonder who's an idiot here. You really suck at ratting if your rattle/carrier is not nearly twice as efficient as the Ishtar, whatever drones it's using. But then again, you're a gewn, you just lie. And considering that in post-Phoebe world just about the only risk for a carrier is wormholes, which are controllable, you lied again.
Miner Hottie wrote:Finally, you need to drop the mental conditioning which says goons always lie. They only usually lie and you won't find much lying from them in these threads. Freaking need chribba to come in and mine all this tinfoil. Finally, seeing the Ishtar nerfed to the pack with the other HAC's would make me very happy. Drone doctrines aren't that great and encourage a pretty limited skill amongst all the players. You lied like every gewn so far. You need to drop the mental condition which makes you lie first. "In these threads" there is only one truth - all but gewns are getting a nerfbat... again. Whoever says otherwise - lies. Just like you.
Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.
If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
|
Xenuria
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1012
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 15:43:15 -
[318] - Quote
CCP has said during FanFest and other mediums that they want to bring drones in like with other "Primary Damage Types" meaning Blasters, Lazers, Rails, Etc. This means that a player in a ship designed to benefit drones should be able to viably use drones as a primary and ONLY source of damage output. This is no longer possible, it hasn't been possible for over a year now. In effort to prune "Damage/Power Creep" CCP has started lopping off branches of game-play.
If CCP went on record on said something like "Yeah, we no longer see drone dps as a primary damage type in our development narrative" Than there would be no controversy. No reason for anybody to complain.
The problem is CCP has never said that and the fitting of drone boats also still reflects the idea of drones as a primary NOT a secondary Damage source. For those that don't understand what could happen if Power Creep isn't checked in an MMO, look at World of Warcraft. EvE Online is quickly becoming a cautionary tale of when Power Creep mitigation goes to far, in the likes of Guild Wars 2 and other power tapered development mentalities.
CSM 11 Candidate
My Lore Predictions
|
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
719
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 15:46:45 -
[319] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Tyr Dolorem wrote:Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Now, if only BBcode worked directly in bio's, this would be in mine so so fast.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
|
MasterGlorfy
CyberShield Inc Triumvirate.
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 15:49:35 -
[320] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:The slowest HAC is kity and hard to catch??
I believe the point the poster was making was that they kite well and are hard to catch in relation to other ships that wield battleship sized weaponry. |
|
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
719
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 15:51:07 -
[321] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Rootufi Aldent wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Can we just get rid of CRUISERS getting bonuses to BATTLESHIP weapons? no, because tornado. Battlecruisers and cruisers are not the same thing.
Also, Attack battlecruisers make major tradeoffs to fit those large guns, such as being lightly tanked for cruisers.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
|
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
719
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 15:53:11 -
[322] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:CCP has said during FanFest and other mediums that they want to bring drones in like with other "Primary Damage Types" meaning Blasters, Lazers, Rails, Etc. This means that a player in a ship designed to benefit drones should be able to viably use drones as a primary and ONLY source of damage output. This is no longer possible, it hasn't been possible for over a year now. In effort to prune "Damage/Power Creep" CCP has started lopping off branches of game-play.
If CCP went on record on said something like "Yeah, we no longer see drone dps as a primary damage type in our development narrative" Than there would be no controversy. No reason for anybody to complain.
The problem is CCP has never said that and the fitting of drone boats also still reflects the idea of drones as a primary NOT a secondary Damage source. For those that don't understand what could happen if Power Creep isn't checked in an MMO, look at World of Warcraft. EvE Online is quickly becoming a cautionary tale of when Power Creep mitigation goes to far, in the likes of Guild Wars 2 and other power tapered development mentalities.
So, if this is the case, bring the ishtar and other drone platform's fitting space into accord with the fittingless nature of their PRIMARY damage source, and thus make them actually make tradeoffs other than downsizing their secondary weapons to fit 100mn MWDs to cruisers.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
|
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
466
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 16:08:34 -
[323] - Quote
MasterGlorfy wrote:Aplysia Vejun wrote:The slowest HAC is kity and hard to catch?? I believe the point the poster was making was that they kite well and are hard to catch in relation to other ships that wield battleship sized weaponry. Correct.
Also they don't need to worry about tracking, they don't need cap for their guns, they don't need to worry about their range to the enemy (only their sentries range).. Other platforms that put out similar DPS need to actually fit a solid tank, cause they need to be at point blank range.. Ishtars can put out the same DPS, but be 100km away with Drone Links and sebo's.. Not to mention they are immune to EWAR, ECM, TC's, Damps, have no effect on their ability to apply DPS.
Agree or disagree that they are OP, the point is, all this talk about sentries is strictly about ONE Hull. Ishtars. Stratios with Sentries isn't OP. Myrm with Sentries isn't OP. Yet they are getting hit with the nerf hammer because CCP doesn't want to, or is unable to address Ishtars. |
per
Terpene Conglomerate
57
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 16:21:38 -
[324] - Quote
is this the right time to ask about electronic warfare drones and combat utility drones, any progress on them or plans to fix/remove them in near future (5+ years?) since they are broken "few" years now |
Dentia Caecus
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 16:24:57 -
[325] - Quote
Sniper Smith wrote:I've gotta say I agree with a lot of the comments here. You keep nerfing sentries, but they aren't the problem, it's the hulls with bonus that make them OP. It would be like nerfing Stasis Web's because of Vindi's. You're making it so the ONLY way Sentries are viable, is on these platforms that are already, at least debatably, OP.
Ishtars are the problem. It's not Sentries. It's the fact that not only can a cruiser platform use a full flight of BS grade weapons, but it can do so while remaining kity and hard to catch....
Sniper Smith wrote:MasterGlorfy wrote:Aplysia Vejun wrote:The slowest HAC is kity and hard to catch?? I believe the point the poster was making was that they kite well and are hard to catch in relation to other ships that wield battleship sized weaponry. Correct. Also they don't need to worry about tracking, they don't need cap for their guns, they don't need to worry about their range to the enemy (only their sentries range).. Other platforms that put out similar DPS need to actually fit a solid tank, cause they need to be at point blank range.. Ishtars can put out the same DPS, but be 100km away with Drone Links and sebo's.. Not to mention they are immune to EWAR, ECM, TC's, Damps, have no effect on their ability to apply DPS. Agree or disagree that they are OP, the point is, all this talk about sentries is strictly about ONE Hull. Ishtars. Stratios with Sentries isn't OP. Myrm with Sentries isn't OP. Yet they are getting hit with the nerf hammer because CCP doesn't want to, or is unable to address Ishtars.
The community has overwhelmingly spoken; we have told CCP Fozzie the most workable solution. Instead he sticks his fingers in his ears, and says, essentially " Not matter what I say I will make 90% of you mad, therefore, I know best." Unfortunately for Fozzie, the majority of us are saying the same thing: cruisers (read-the ishtar) should not have a Battleship weapons platform and have provided various solutions to this problem. Instead of listening to the community, the clients , the spokesperson for CCP says "the CSM wanted us to to do more."
CCP Fozzie and the CSM voices are drowned by the vast majority of the clients, a.k.a.the players , very simply: " YOU GOT IT WRONG."
Bottom line: there is a reverse power creep, aka a "nerf creep" on sentries at work here. Multiple and varied platforms which have drone bonuses that use sentries are just fine: the Dominix and the Armageddon are probably the most widely used; however, there are other sub capital vessels that can field sentries, too and are therefore affected by this nerf: including the Eos, Myrmidon, the Nestor, Sin, Stratios and Vexor Navy. These vessels do not need a nerf at the present time. Fozzie mentioned some of these vessels in his post, but where is the data to support his conclusions, empirical or otherwise. While possible, I would be surprised to learn that fleets of VNI's or Armageddons are out there destroying every fleet encountered. Is it possible? Yes. Likely? No. Are the above hulls useful for other reasons, including, but not limited to mainline pve, skirmish pvp and roles within large pvp with their respective drone bonus intact? Yes.
The big offender here is the Ishtar. I happen to love the vessel but I both see and appreciate the bigger picture: Do not nerf an entire weapons system when the overwhelming problem is one **** hull.
Does the community always get it right? No, we don't. But in this instance a cacophony of voices are presenting well reasoned arguments why Fozzie and his team made a mistake. This situation is reminiscent of f the jump changes as applied to JF's. Former CCP Greyscale listened to the community, mea culpa-ed and acted accordingly. I hope Fozzie does the same. I sincerely doubt it, but I have hope.
|
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
270
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 16:47:43 -
[326] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:The slowest HAC is kity and hard to catch??
The eagle is the slowest HAC with MWD. Though the ishtar isnt far behind. The problem is the ishtar can dump sentries and scurry off. Meaning if a ship chases and tackles the ishtar 15-20 seconds later, its sentries will be quite capable of killing the tackle. where as a turret ships dps can be mitigated by TD/close orbit with low sig/high speed. Course an ishtar has no guns, but most likely has neuts to make you immobile and an easy target for sentry blap.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
|
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
721
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 16:48:40 -
[327] - Quote
So, inspired by the communities reaction to this, and the repeated pointing out that the ishtar and dominix share a similar bonus which is powerful enough to distort how sentries are viewed and used, I put up a thread devoted to fixing those two bonuses, and any other overly powerful dual bonuses people bring to it.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
|
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
467
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 16:55:49 -
[328] - Quote
I don't necessarly think Cruisers shouldn't have access to Sentry (and heavy) drones. I do feel that they need to be balanced better.
Try this on for size..
Ishtar Gal Cruiser Skills - 7.5% Bonus to Heavy Drones Velocity and Tracking. - 10% Bonus to Light, Medium, Heavy drone damage.
Heavy Assault Skills - 5% Bonus to Medium and Heavy Drone MWD Speed - 10% Bonus to Light, Medium, and Heavy Drone hitpoints
Splits the HP and DPS into separate skills. Gives an advantage to being able to Apply your DPS. Removes Sentries from being relevant in the equation.
Hell could also make the Ishtar really unique in giving it a bonus to more than just Combat drones.. Bonus Logistic Drones too, for HP, Speed, and Rep Amount?
Point is, this would be far better at dealing with the issues than nerfing sentry drones. Each time you Nerf sentries, it makes it so more and more the only Viable Sentry platforms are those with Bonus to them. Knock it off. Battleships and other boats that field Sentries should be made to suffer just because the Ishtar owns the market. As I said before, what you are doing would be the same as Nerfing web's to combat the Vindi, or Nerfing Neuts to combat the Bhaal. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1276
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 17:04:17 -
[329] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Aplysia Vejun wrote:The slowest HAC is kity and hard to catch?? The eagle is the slowest HAC with MWD. Though the ishtar isnt far behind. The problem is the ishtar can dump sentries and scurry off. Meaning if a ship chases and tackles the ishtar 15-20 seconds later, its sentries will be quite capable of killing the tackle. where as a turret ships dps can be mitigated by TD/close orbit with low sig/high speed. Course an ishtar has no guns, but most likely has neuts to make you immobile and an easy target for sentry blap.
Eagle also isn't REMOTELY cap stable, ishtar just YOLOs about with better cap than most laser ships.
Also, try jamming a 100mn on any other HAC maintaining full firepower.... |
Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia Soviet-Union
24
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 17:20:12 -
[330] - Quote
Stop the nerfs already you are killing my toon and all the skill training and time I have put into this character.
I started training toward carriers because I thought that would be cool. Months later nerf to the abilities.
So then I redirected and decided to alter course and fly and Ishtar. Then again another nerf.
Obviously since I use Gallente ships. Hybrid weapons are my weapon choice and then again nerf to medium hybrids.
Just completed training up to sentry drone 5 and not again nerf to sentries.
Training into a toon takes months and years of real time and that time equals "real" dollar amounts of keeping your account active and at every turn it seems that CCP pulls out the nerf bat.
CCP I also like to fly the Dominix, Gila, Stratios and Rattlesnake. I am also training into an Arazu. So would you like to get your nerf bat out and slaps some negatives onto those ships as well?
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [11] 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 24 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |