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Sticky:[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 12829	Posted - 2015.05.21 13:39:34 - [1] - Quote Hey everyone! For our Carnyx release at the beginning of June we're planning on making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones, part of our ongoing process of massaging drone combat into a healthier place in the meta. These are a very specific and limited set of changes that we believe will benefit the game, but it's important to know that these are explicitly not intended to be a "once and for all" fix for every problem related to sentries. There's no such thing as a balance silver bullet. The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas. Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1159	Posted - 2015.05.21 13:42:40 - [2] - Quote First, just because I could :D
Daoden The Scope Gallente Federation 98	Posted - 2015.05.21 13:44:01 - [3] - Quote 2nd
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 261	Posted - 2015.05.21 13:44:13 - [4] - Quote I think its another good tweaking. Good for a revisit later if needed. Have you considering make a separate size sentry drone to make balancing easier, so we aren't neutering BS drone doctrines? Or is that the intent? Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Womyn Power Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 100	Posted - 2015.05.21 13:44:30 - [5] - Quote all praise 2 allah and his messenger muhammad pbuh
Tiberian Deci Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 140	Posted - 2015.05.21 13:47:23 - [6] - Quote Not gonna pretend to be a theorycrafter, but they look good to me.
Xavier Azabu Fluid Motion Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 16	Posted - 2015.05.21 13:49:14 - [7] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: ...making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones... ...massaging drone combat... Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! Optimal nerf on Gardes is a little harsh. Maybe like 15%? No one uses them on towers or in kiting Ishtar combat anyway. The Curator and Bouncer nerf is needed. Will this finally discourage people from using the Ishtar?
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1083	Posted - 2015.05.21 13:51:15 - [8] - Quote Quote: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff why? because of sentry drone optimal bonuses being too good?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1230	Posted - 2015.05.21 13:52:07 - [9] - Quote I think you're hurting the hulls which are not bonused for them disproportionately hard compared to the bonused ones. No-one complains about a sentry geddon. The issues sit firmly in the bonused hulls, who will feel this less because of their already huge advantage over their peer group. I know you like to balance the weapons and not blame hulls but in this case, it clearly IS the hulls.
MissBolyai ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 128	Posted - 2015.05.21 13:53:53 - [10] - Quote I think you and I have moderately different definitions of the word "moderate." Good changes though, and I can officially announce that PL ships will be solely using Wardens in all AT matches this year.

Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2853	Posted - 2015.05.21 13:59:13 - [11] - Quote While sipping a glass of whiskey, I pondered the idea of Sentry Drones being more of a unique entity and not classified as a drone but more of a deployable turret, thus not gaining any of the benefits of drone modules it rigs. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
PotatoOverdose Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS. 2688	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:01:01 - [12] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: There's no such thing as a balance silver bullet. Give them the Drake treatment?
Obidiah Kane Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo 0	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:02:31 - [13] - Quote I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills. :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 972	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:05:38 - [14] - Quote It cannot hurt to try this tweak. I am most offended by sentry drones when used by Carriers, not Ishtars or Dominixes. Making the drones slightly worse should help with that problem. The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
Deacon Abox Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 502	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:06:29 - [15] - Quote Before I critique, thank you Fozzie and co for your work on rebalancing. It is difficult and neverending. But the game is now better for it. So . . Would be nice to see a new spread sheet for the various drones. Also wondering if this leaves wardens as the go to drones for sentry doctrines? Did they really need no tweaks after these changes to the other drones? And are gardes now officially crap for just about everything? Which is why a spreadsheet would help to see whether that smoothed progression claimed in the op will be the case. Also, hopefully this does not kill the Ishtar. Only reduce the prevalence. CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
Elenahina agony unleashed Agony Empire 580	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:07:37 - [16] - Quote Obidiah Kane wrote: :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. You get used to it - this happens a lot in Eve, especially for newer players. Best advice I was ever given was do not specialize - the more ships you know how to fly, the more nerf proof you are. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1083	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:08:10 - [17] - Quote Obidiah Kane wrote: I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills. :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. maybe you should train what you like, rather than being utterly awful
Lord LazyGhost Bear Bones Brigade The Bastards. 488	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:10:22 - [18] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Obidiah Kane wrote: I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills. :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. maybe you should train what you like, rather than being utterly awful trouser as happy as always :) 0/
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 674	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:12:26 - [19] - Quote Ishtar still not fixed by this. Xaxaxa // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Ravcharas Infinite Point Nulli Secunda 403	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:13:27 - [20] - Quote Obidiah Kane wrote: :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. Yeah that's kind of what happens when you chase after the flavor of the month.

Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 674	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:15:25 - [21] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: There's no such thing as a balance silver bullet. Really now? http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-odyssey-1.1 Quote: ISHTAR: 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage). 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage. Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses: 5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level. 7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed(was bonus to drone bay capacity). The Zealot still can't reach even close to those range and damage levels, not to mention abysmal EHP on such setups. Drone double bonuses are working as intended. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Obidiah Kane Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo 1	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:17:51 - [22] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Obidiah Kane wrote: I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills. :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. maybe you should train what you like, rather than being utterly awful Come again?! What kind of person even writes that? Why write it? What does it even mean?
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 674	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:19:25 - [23] - Quote Obidiah Kane wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: Obidiah Kane wrote: I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills. :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. maybe you should train what you like, rather than being utterly awful Come again?! What kind of person even writes that? Why write it? What does it even mean? It means train for broken ships, expecting them to stay that way forever, at your own risk. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Sbrodor Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation 43	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:19:26 - [24] - Quote with the new modules boostin tracking the sentry actually can track frigs so i think is good let them come back to anti bs 400mm weapons. the point only one HAC can field BS size weapon is another thread....
Aralyn Cormallen Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation 1114	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:20:33 - [25] - Quote Obidiah Kane wrote: I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills. :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. If you only train for the flavour of the month, you are always going to be disappointed.
Mind Rape Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 14	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:20:43 - [26] - Quote well done Fozzie, another ship nerfed into crap. CCP Fozzie wrote: We welcome feedback as always! nope you don't.
Paessi Mikakka Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light 1	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:22:59 - [27] - Quote Blame drones for istar being op...
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1232	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:25:33 - [28] - Quote Aralyn Cormallen wrote: Obidiah Kane wrote: I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills. :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. If you only train for the flavour of the month, you are always going to be disappointed. Jesus, talk about shouting at the wrong guy. "Hey director dude, screw you, I'm not training ishtar, it's FOTM crap and my spaceship e-bushido prevents this!" "Why am I in Native Freshfood?" Don't hate the line member, hate the doctrine designers.
Tyr Dolorem Snuff Box Snuffed Out 54	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:26:24 - [29] - Quote Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?
Obidiah Kane Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo 1	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:26:35 - [30] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Obidiah Kane wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: Obidiah Kane wrote: I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills. :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. maybe you should train what you like, rather than being utterly awful Come again?! What kind of person even writes that? Why write it? What does it even mean? It means train for broken ships, expecting them to stay that way forever, at your own risk. So newish player looks at figures/ bonuses in ISIS while deciding what to fly, no idea of meta/ weight of moaning bitter vets at the time...why am I awful? That was my question...I appreciate your point, and others, completely.

Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 675	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:27:11 - [31] - Quote Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Good question. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Lord LazyGhost Bear Bones Brigade The Bastards. 488	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:27:19 - [32] - Quote Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? because its easier
MasterGlorfy CyberShield Inc Triumvirate. 4	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:28:43 - [33] - Quote I'm disappointed with these changes. Nerfing the weapon system over the ships really seems to have worked out poorly in the past (railgun/tengu , hml/drake). Given how well CCP did with taking feedback on the Jackdaw balancing and generating an exciting bonus, I expect quite a bit more than a sentry-drone damage/optimal/tracking/falloff numbers game.

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 12836	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:29:15 - [34] - Quote Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 675	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:30:51 - [35] - Quote Lord LazyGhost wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? because its easier Stomping the Armageddon into the ground because of the double bonus on the Domi can work, but upto a point. Though, there's also the issue of carriers employing them - this can't effectively be balanced on a hull basis. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Alexhandr Shkarov Swamphole Inc. Swamphole 11	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:31:23 - [36] - Quote I hope one day the Ishtar loses any sentry bonuses, and instead is more tailored to heavy-drone platforms. It retains a lot of the power but no longer the range that sentries can project damage at.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1083	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:32:26 - [37] - Quote where are the ongoing changes to combat drones to make them viable
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 1772	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:34:54 - [38] - Quote I'm on board with the idea of sentry ships being too strong. I'm not on board with the concept of nerfing the weapon system instead of the broken hulls. While you remove 3% dps, drone boats still run around with double 10/7.5 bonuses, drone boats still run around with the same PWG / CPU levels than other ships of their class, even though they don't have to fit weapons (!), ishtars can still use battleship weapons... So yeah... its too little, too far away from the real issue. But at least the conclusion that something needs to change with sentries is good. Signature Tanking Best Tanking Exploration Frontier Inc [Ex-F] CEO - BRAVE - Eve-guides.fr
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1233	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:37:01 - [39] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Unless I (and everyone I know) is wrong, you're vastly overstating the drones themselves. The issue is 95% in the hulls (and that's being kind), if we deleted the ishtar and dominix tomorrow, people wouldn't leap to sentry geddons to replace it, a whole new meta would spring forth. And it would be one without sentries. If there is some evidence/stats to show my assertion is false, please share NB: I'm ignoring capitals because that's a whole different bag o' fish.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:40:11 - [40] - Quote Carriers, afkalt, carriers. You can't balance that platform without either looking at the Sentries as a weapons system, or restricting carriers to fighters-only. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]

Savant Alabel Locus Signatures 39	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:50:23 - [41] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! So you make sentry drones on non-ishtar/dominix ships fully useless crap? isn't better just drop ability of cruiser-size hulls to launch full pack of sentry?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1235	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:54:33 - [42] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Carriers, afkalt, carriers. You can't balance that platform without either looking at the Sentries as a weapons system, or restricting carriers to fighters-only. I did later say I was ignoring capitals. Basically because I didnt want to diverge the thread into them alone (which is where it'll probably end up). Capitals shouldn't be anywhere near subcapital drones. Period. Any attempt to balance subcapital drones deployed form capitals with cavernous drone bays would be an exercise in futility as someone would end up shafted. Caps should have their own drone class.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:56:28 - [43] - Quote As it stands, they are part of the equation. Perhaps, later on it will change, but they are right now. afkalt wrote: Caps should have their own drone class. As much as that would be reasonable and maybe even balanced, Capital Sentry drones would further disincentivise Battleship use. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Taram Caldar Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS. 78	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:57:01 - [44] - Quote Just my opinion but sentries aren't the problem, currently. The problem is the bonuses on the ishtar that push their drone damage, in general, so over and above the damage output of other ships in their peer group. I know you prefer to adjust weapon groups rather than ship bonuses but in this case the problem is, very clearly, the ship bonuses. It's not the drones themselves. The only drone boats being abused are the ones with the insane drone bonuses. Other ships use drones but you don't see entire drone doctrines around them like you do the ishtar and domi. Tone those ship bonuses down rather than crippling a weapon class for every ship in the game. "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.-á He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
Jessica Danikov Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 446	Posted - 2015.05.21 14:57:10 - [45] - Quote How about returning drones to the traditional meta where both the speed of the attacker and the defender play into tracking and damage application? The fact that drone boats enjoy full mobility without any penalty to damage application has always been disproportionately advantageous. The fix is simple- have sentry drones be aimed by the hull, e.g. make the tracking relative to the hull. This will improve tracking in certain circumstances, while reducing it in many others, often proportional to any defensive bonuses incurred through piloting. Fundamentally, piloting will play a bigger part in sentry drone pilots lives rather than sentry drones being easy mode and thus favoured for nerfs into the ground.
Valterra Craven 542	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:00:59 - [46] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem. Or are you guys just basing balancing decisions on gut feelings now? :P
Lord LazyGhost Bear Bones Brigade The Bastards. 488	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:02:06 - [47] - Quote Jessica Danikov wrote: How about returning drones to the traditional meta where both the speed of the attacker and the defender play into tracking and damage application? The fact that drone boats enjoy full mobility without any penalty to damage application has always been disproportionately advantageous. The fix is simple- have sentry drones be aimed by the hull, e.g. make the tracking relative to the hull. This will improve tracking in certain circumstances, while reducing it in many others, often proportional to any defensive bonuses incurred through piloting. Fundamentally, piloting will play a bigger part in sentry drone pilots lives rather than sentry drones being easy mode and thus favoured for nerfs into the ground. got to remmber unlike other ships drones can loose all their dammage if killed
Seven Koskanaiken Positive Failure Black Legion. 1508	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:04:10 - [48] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Because the geddon, rattle and drone proteus are causing sooo many problems right now......
Valterra Craven 542	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:05:16 - [49] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! I think what you need to do is compare these drones to what they are supposed to be competing with. So for example, is the garde supposed to be competitive with blasters or rails? If blasters, then gardes need high damage, high tracking, low range. If rails, then gardes need moderate damage, low tracking, high range. From there you just compare how many drones a player has and find dps profiles that match ships, So for example a blaster mega compared to a garde wielding domi. Given you keep nuking the optimal of the garde it seems to me you want to compare it to blasters, so why are you still nuking the tracking and damage on it?
Fredric Wolf Black Sheep Down Tactical Narcotics Team 89	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:05:20 - [50] - Quote Has there ever been talk at CCP about Creating S,M,L, and XL sentries? If so what is preventing these from coming into game and making this a better fix by removing L weapons from cruiser hulls?

Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:06:46 - [51] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem. Or are you guys just basing balancing decisions on gut feelings now? :P http://i.imgur.com/GqTO6zd.png http://i.imgur.com/cP7kPvH.png Working as intended. Feel free to provide me a Zealot setup that would match that at least within 10%. Bonuses being the obvious part, as has been said, you can't balance sentry carriers without looking at the weapon system as a whole. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1235	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:07:48 - [52] - Quote Seven Koskanaiken wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Because the geddon, rattle and drone proteus are causing sooo many problems right now...... Nah, it's the Myrm's o' DOOM.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1084	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:10:50 - [53] - Quote Fredric Wolf wrote: Has there ever been talk at CCP about Creating S,M,L, and XL sentries? If so what is preventing these from coming into game and making this a better fix by removing L weapons from cruiser hulls? a better solution would be to just get rid of sentries
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 348	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:11:56 - [54] - Quote Mind wrote: well done Fozzie, another ship nerfed into crap. CCP Fozzie wrote: We welcome feedback as always! nope you don't. You're joking right? Sentry drones were, and still are going to be, utterly broken. What is wrong with you people. Fozzie still didn't go far enough.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 348	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:13:51 - [55] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Ishtar still not fixed by this. Xaxaxa Yep, it will still be far and away the most powerful HAC.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:15:05 - [56] - Quote Lord LazyGhost wrote: Jessica Danikov wrote: How about returning drones to the traditional meta where both the speed of the attacker and the defender play into tracking and damage application? The fact that drone boats enjoy full mobility without any penalty to damage application has always been disproportionately advantageous. The fix is simple- have sentry drones be aimed by the hull, e.g. make the tracking relative to the hull. This will improve tracking in certain circumstances, while reducing it in many others, often proportional to any defensive bonuses incurred through piloting. Fundamentally, piloting will play a bigger part in sentry drone pilots lives rather than sentry drones being easy mode and thus favoured for nerfs into the ground. got to remmber unlike other ships drones can loose all their dammage if killed Got to remember unlike the other turret ships, drones track their targets irrespective of the velocity, range, or direction of the host ship, and losing target lock does not nullify damage dealt. Capless, omni-damage weapons systems to boot. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 433	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:17:39 - [57] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. How about you nerf the fundamental problem of disjointed transversal and the ability to command an entity from 120km that can itself reach beyond even that on a hull size that is usually restricted to 30-70km engagements, rather than introducing nerfs that hurt non-abusive doctrines and are countered by the abusive doctrine by simply bringing more dudes? In other words: If you keep nerfing only the projection and damage of sentries, people will bring MORE of them, and it will become (even more) a doctrine that is useless to small groups and overpowered for large groups, because raw stats aren't the issue with the ishtar. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:22:58 - [58] - Quote Desudes wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. How about you nerf the fundamental problem of disjointed transversal and the ability to command an entity from 120km that can itself reach beyond even that on a hull size that is usually restricted to 30-70km engagements, rather than introducing nerfs that hurt non-abusive doctrines and are countered by the abusive doctrine by simply bringing more dudes? The solution is far simpler - remove the Optimal range part of the double bonus on the Ishtar. Let them choose either Range+Tank, or Damage - not all three at once. Quote: In other words: If you keep nerfing only the projection and damage of sentries, people will bring MORE of them, and it will become (even more) a doctrine that is useless to small groups and overpowered for large groups, because raw stats aren't the issue with the ishtar. That will be the case until the fundamental problem of those double bonuses is resolves. Long live the Wardens! // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Rumpelstilz Rumtopf KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 0	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:24:37 - [59] - Quote target : destroy a funny game. another step is done!
Max Kolonko WATAHA. Unseen Wolves 518	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:25:26 - [60] - Quote Altrue wrote: I'm on board with the idea of sentry ships being too strong. I'm not on board with the concept of nerfing the weapon system instead of the broken hulls. While you remove 3% dps, drone boats still run around with double 10/7.5 bonuses, drone boats still run around with the same PWG / CPU levels than other ships of their class, even though they don't have to fit weapons (!), ishtars can still use battleship weapons... So yeah... its too little, too far away from the real issue. But at least the conclusion that something needs to change with sentries is good. The problem us that drone ships of medium size (hacs, commands) can field bs size drones. If you renove those ships from equation you end up with either: slow cats and sentry domnis/other bs. Thise are waaay slower making them easier to counter and easier to balance in this regard. Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?

Zafrena Tyrleon Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:27:45 - [61] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone! For our Carnyx release at the beginning of June we're planning on making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones, part of our ongoing process of massaging drone combat into a healthier place in the meta. These are a very specific and limited set of changes that we believe will benefit the game, but it's important to know that these are explicitly not intended to be a "once and for all" fix for every problem related to sentries. There's no such thing as a balance silver bullet. The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas. Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls. More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore. What you're doing here is just moving the goalposts every 6 weeks to the point where people are frustrated with the situation. You guys are doing huge, sweeping changes to sov - why not consider doing it to drones?
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:30:34 - [62] - Quote Max Kolonko wrote: Altrue wrote: I'm on board with the idea of sentry ships being too strong. I'm not on board with the concept of nerfing the weapon system instead of the broken hulls. While you remove 3% dps, drone boats still run around with double 10/7.5 bonuses, drone boats still run around with the same PWG / CPU levels than other ships of their class, even though they don't have to fit weapons (!), ishtars can still use battleship weapons... So yeah... its too little, too far away from the real issue. But at least the conclusion that something needs to change with sentries is good. The problem us that drone ships of medium size (hacs, commands) can field bs size drones. If you renove those ships from equation you end up with either: slow cats and sentry domnis/other bs. Thise are waaay slower making them easier to counter and easier to balance in this regard. Even unbonused Wardens on the Ishtar would still be broken w/ base 75km + 42km range. Agreed. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Tyr Dolorem Snuff Box Snuffed Out 56	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:30:56 - [63] - Quote Max Kolonko wrote: Altrue wrote: I'm on board with the idea of sentry ships being too strong. I'm not on board with the concept of nerfing the weapon system instead of the broken hulls. While you remove 3% dps, drone boats still run around with double 10/7.5 bonuses, drone boats still run around with the same PWG / CPU levels than other ships of their class, even though they don't have to fit weapons (!), ishtars can still use battleship weapons... So yeah... its too little, too far away from the real issue. But at least the conclusion that something needs to change with sentries is good. The problem us that drone ships of medium size (hacs, commands) can field bs size drones. If you renove those ships from equation you end up with either: slow cats and sentry domnis/other bs. Thise are waaay slower making them easier to counter and easier to balance in this regard. If the problem was cruisers fielding BS size drones wouldn't people be crying about how broken a heavy drone VNI is? It's not the sentries that are the problem (at least on subs) its the bonuses that are applied to them from the hull.
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 269	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:31:05 - [64] - Quote Can the Domi have access to fighters now, to balance the fact that Ishtars get access to heavy drones and sentries?
Onslaughtor Occult National Security Phoenix Naval Systems 141	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:32:42 - [65] - Quote The 3-4% damage drop feels reasonable, the tracking I can't really argue with. The swap from optimal to falloff on the Garde feels a bit off but the extra falloff range could be useful. Overall semi skeptical but nothing that out of place. Personally I despise sentries. But only on a ship that is not meant to fit them. On the Rattlesnake, Domi, and Armageddon I feel that they fit perfectly. One thing that I have thought of to fix this is to add one or 2 bandwidth or m3 to sentries. Then replicate that addition on battleships only. This instantly limits the number of sentries none battleships can field while letting them stay on undersides hulls.
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 433	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:33:04 - [66] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Desudes wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. How about you nerf the fundamental problem of disjointed transversal and the ability to command an entity from 120km that can itself reach beyond even that on a hull size that is usually restricted to 30-70km engagements, rather than introducing nerfs that hurt non-abusive doctrines and are countered by the abusive doctrine by simply bringing more dudes? The solution is far simpler - remove the Optimal range part of the double bonus on the Ishtar. Let them choose either Range+Tank, or Damage - not all three at once. Quote: In other words: If you keep nerfing only the projection and damage of sentries, people will bring MORE of them, and it will become (even more) a doctrine that is useless to small groups and overpowered for large groups, because raw stats aren't the issue with the ishtar. That will be the case until the fundamental problem of those double bonuses is resolves. Long live the Wardens! You're missing the point. Even if you reduce them to wardens, you stil allow for the ability to apply dps at range while maintaining full transversal. Reducing dps increases the amount of ishtars needed to reach critical mass, but it doesn't change the ship is holding etreme transversal with no negative effect to its own tracking, similar to missiles, but with missiles there is travel time and firewalls. Reducing the raw stats will lower the amount of corps/alliances able to field enough ishtars to be effective, but it will remain overpowered to those that can field the numbers. This is why the previous nerfs have done nothing but make fewer entities able to use the ship, but it hasn't changed anything to those throwing 250 ishtars at you. In other words, its still overpowered in the situations its overpowered, but its weaker where it isn't. Kind of a bland way to balance things, imo. I'd rather see the ship reworked entirely than relegated to a similar function the rail Naga sees. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Borascus 626	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:33:48 - [67] - Quote It's not going to be problematic in the asymptote range of use. New Ishtar pilots will face more risk in level 4's. Raging null-sec fleets will lose a small amount of their net dps, less than 3%. People working out of Mobile Depots will be unaffected. The Deimos has 5 turret hardpoints with a 50% dmg bonus at level 5 cruiser + level 5 HAC, with space for 2 sentry, 1 Gecko or 5 medium. It does have an Armor Repair bonus though. Realistically, this change to sentry stats is only going to bolster the ammunition market, and decrease inflation. Forcing a slightly different approach from the 'risk free' application of damage found in huge fleets built around drones. Jammed ship guns vs Jammed ship still using drones will still be a sore spot.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:34:56 - [68] - Quote Zafrena Tyrleon wrote: You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls. More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore. That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Seven Koskanaiken Positive Failure Black Legion. 1508	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:35:04 - [69] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Desudes wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. How about you nerf the fundamental problem of disjointed transversal and the ability to command an entity from 120km that can itself reach beyond even that on a hull size that is usually restricted to 30-70km engagements, rather than introducing nerfs that hurt non-abusive doctrines and are countered by the abusive doctrine by simply bringing more dudes? The solution is far simpler - remove the Optimal range part of the double bonus on the Ishtar. Let them choose either Range+Tank, or Damage - not all three at once, exceeding all the other HACs by a broken amount, even the Eagle. This. Shield isn't even the prescribed tank for the Ishtar in the first place, let alone allowing them to have it with no trade offs, ccp pls.
Valterra Craven 542	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:35:12 - [70] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem. Or are you guys just basing balancing decisions on gut feelings now? :P http://i.imgur.com/GqTO6zd.png http://i.imgur.com/cP7kPvH.png Working as intended. Feel free to provide me a Zealot setup that would match that at least within 10%. Bonuses being the obvious part, as has been said, you can't balance sentry carriers without looking at the weapon system as a whole. P.S. Don't say, Shoot into their EM hole! Rectified by replacing one hardener. Shouldn't you be comparing them to their respective races? Aka bouncers to arties?

Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:36:55 - [71] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem. Or are you guys just basing balancing decisions on gut feelings now? :P http://i.imgur.com/GqTO6zd.png http://i.imgur.com/cP7kPvH.png Working as intended. Feel free to provide me a Zealot setup that would match that at least within 10%. Bonuses being the obvious part, as has been said, you can't balance sentry carriers without looking at the weapon system as a whole. P.S. Don't say, Shoot into their EM hole! Rectified by replacing one hardener. Shouldn't you be comparing them to their respective races? Aka bouncers to arties? Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones. Nice try. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Jaime Gomes SniggWaffe WAFFLES. 12	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:38:11 - [72] - Quote The biggest complain i have regarding sentries is that its a defense system witch drawbacks normally are pretty much looked aside. What about this: make drones use CPU and PG like any other Offensive system in the game? I have to squeeze and maximize multiple skills so that many ships can be fitted "properly" without having to resort to buy implants/hardwires in order to function. With drones i believe that is not the case. What about this idea?
Urandas Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:40:01 - [73] - Quote Has their ever been plans to move Ishtars to having more powerful medium drones? Medium drone meta seems to have a better balance of having the damage from the drones more of either a secondary damage source or the ships that use medium drones such as pilgrams, curse, etc have a more ewar purpose. Unfortunately an Ishtar with medium drones wouldnt get the best damage. so maybe I just stated the reason why ishtars cant be shifted towards medium drones. meh, its an idea
Valterra Craven 542	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:41:02 - [74] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones. Nice try. Then why is the zealot any more of a valid comparison?
SilentAsTheGrave Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 268	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:41:11 - [75] - Quote Obidiah Kane wrote: I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills. :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. Please train for the Falcon. Buddy Program: If you sign up with my buddy invite link and subscribe with a valid payment method - I will give you 95% of the going rate for PLEX!
Tyr Dolorem Snuff Box Snuffed Out 58	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:41:50 - [76] - Quote Urandas wrote: Has their ever been plans to move Ishtars to having more powerful medium drones? Medium drone meta seems to have a better balance of having the damage from the drones more of either a secondary damage source or the ships that use medium drones such as pilgrams, curse, etc have a more ewar purpose. Unfortunately an Ishtar with medium drones wouldnt get the best damage. so maybe I just stated the reason why ishtars cant be shifted towards medium drones. meh, its an idea It's called a gila.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:41:55 - [77] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones. Nice try. Then why is the zealot any more of a valid comparison? You're serious aren't you? Both the Zealot and the Ishtar are Heavy Assault Cruisers. People don't even remember, or know what ships like the Zealot, Muninn are. Good job, CCP. Tyr Dolorem wrote: Urandas wrote: Has their ever been plans to move Ishtars to having more powerful medium drones? Medium drone meta seems to have a better balance of having the damage from the drones more of either a secondary damage source or the ships that use medium drones such as pilgrams, curse, etc have a more ewar purpose. Unfortunately an Ishtar with medium drones wouldnt get the best damage. so maybe I just stated the reason why ishtars cant be shifted towards medium drones. meh, its an idea It's called a gila. Even better than the Ishtar in this department w/ 850 DPS, 82k EHP and faster too. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Azure and Argent Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:48:53 - [78] - Quote Xavier Azabu wrote: Will this finally discourage people from using the Ishtar? Nope. They still have great tank, great mobility, and best in class DPS.
Amanda MonteCarlo Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:49:16 - [79] - Quote Couple of fun facts about drones - current stats compared to other weapon systems - no skill bonuses applied. Tracking: bouncer - 0.019 1400's - 0.009 curator - 0.028 tachyon beam - 0.014 warden - 0.012 425 rail - 0.01 Yup 2x the tracking than large guns (except wardens) - maybe more tracking nerfs are required? Damage: 0 lvl skills, faction medium range ammo(you need it to have similiar range as drones). bouncer - 24dps - 36+54km range 1400's with titanium sabot - 13dps - 48+35km range Tachyon with standard - 16dps - 53+20km range Curator - 26dps - 42+12km range 425 rail with lead- 14dps - 58+24km range Warden - 22dps - 60+42km range Eve if you count hat domi has 7.5 effective drones vs 8-10 effective turrets of battleships the damage at range is way better for drones boats. Maybe DPS should be decreased a bit more. Also projectiles suck, AC's need more range - barrage would be ok-ish if it had +100% fallof and selectable damage, and arty can't fit on anything.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:50:45 - [80] - Quote Thanks, Amanda MonteCarlo. People knew, CCP knew. ProgressGäó is being made. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]

Valterra Craven 542	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:51:15 - [81] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones. Nice try. Then why is the zealot any more of a valid comparison? You're serious aren't you? Both the Zealot and the Ishtar are Heavy Assault Cruisers. People don't even remember, or know what ships like the Zealot, Muninn are. Good job, CCP. Serious about my first question: "I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem." We all know that the ishtar having access to sentries is stupid beyond belief (and by we I mean everyone but CCP) No one would think twice about the ranges of sentries if they were bs only and above weapons. Hell in that regard they are even underpowered compared to them considering some of the extreme ranges you can hit with rails and artys! Yet, they keep nerfing sentries into the ground to try and fix this issue with the ishtar. So my question is, what the hell are they looking at that they think sentries are still the problem? As to your post, I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove as I already agree that the ishtar is stupid OP right now.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:52:38 - [82] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones. Nice try. Quote: Then why is the zealot any more of a valid comparison? You're serious aren't you? Both the Zealot and the Ishtar are Heavy Assault Cruisers. People don't even remember, or know what ships like the Zealot, Muninn are. Good job, CCP. Serious about my first question: "I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem." We all know that the ishtar having access to sentries is stupid beyond belief (and by we I mean everyone but CCP) Yet, they keep nerfing sentries into the ground to try and fix this issue. So my question is, what the hell are they looking at that they think sentries are still the problem? As your post, I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove as I already agree that the ishtar is stupid OP right now. Into the ground. Right. Look up the two posts above yours. Into the ground - http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/zbg9Bbn-1024x702.png Further into the ground - http://i.imgur.com/XJIWFZY.gif * *Courtesy of Solidarius - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5616268#post5616268 // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Valterra Craven 542	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:56:21 - [83] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Into the ground. Right. Look up the two posts above yours. Quick question. How many sentys can you deploy on a domi. Quick question. How many artys can you fit on a mael?
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 433	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:56:44 - [84] - Quote I lost the quote because :eve forums: but to the guy comparing ishtars to zealots: The problem with your comparison is sentry drones cannot move. Tactics dictate whether this is an advantage or disadvantage, though it should be noted that close range sentries see little use for a reason, as people can move away from them easily. This also doesnt take into consideration that, for example, a linked beam legion is 80-85m sig radius. For example a beam zealot with IN standard (57+16, 0.037 tracking) doing 371dps (2/3 EM 1/3 therm dmg) into your ishtar fits 54% em resist and 82% therm resist, and 732 sig radius moving at 1578m/s Whereas the ishtar doing 457 explosive dps (62+76 range, 0.028 tracking) against 90% explosive resist, 84m sig radius, moving at 660m/s Two entirely different ships. The fight cannot be determined by stats, as far too much piloting is involved in the fight. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 269	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:56:54 - [85] - Quote Just reduce ishtar bandwidth to 100 already. Why this hasn't been done yet is a mystery.
Ryan en Tilavine Yulai Guard Yulai Federation 0	Posted - 2015.05.21 15:58:19 - [86] - Quote Ive always trusted you fozzie to not need a helping hand. But here i am. Making my first ever post, since you can't seem to see the forest for the trees. Sentry drones are FINE. Leave them as they are now and just do this... The Ishtar we all want to see Gallente cruiser bonus : 7.5% to light, medium, heavy drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% to drone damage and hitpoints Heavy Assault Cruiser bonus : 5000m bonus to drone operation range 7.5% to sentry drone tracking 375 M3 drone bay 125 mb drone bandwidth The Dominix we all want to see Gellente Battleship bonus 7.5% to drone max velocity and optimal range 10% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints 375 m3 drone bay 125 mb drone bandwidth The sentry drones out of any other ship are fine. Their ranges, tracking, damage, hitpoints, and immobility feel perfect as they are now. Nerfing them will only pound other ships that would use them into the dust. If you want to take 10-15% of the optimal from gardes and give them the same falloff then cool. But leave them be besides.
Azure and Argent Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:00:30 - [87] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Because nerfing the Thorax really helped with that Tengu problem.
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 269	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:04:03 - [88] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Zafrena Tyrleon wrote: You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls. More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore. That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS. Wrong. It would encourage people to start using other ships again as the ishtar would stop being completely oppressive within its weight class.
Judas Lonestar Stryker Industries Low-Class 125	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:06:12 - [89] - Quote So a drone type (sentries) which arent all that impressive outside of bonused hulls now become even worse? Fantastic idea. I cant believe it wasnt thought of sooner.....
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:06:22 - [90] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Into the ground. Right. Look up the two posts above yours. Quick question. How many sentys can you deploy on a domi? Quick question. How many artys can you fit on a mael? How quickly you change the topic from the Ishtar. Don't try demagogy, it won't work. Maelstrom has 8 * (1 / (1-0.25)) = 10.6 Effective turrets. Dominix has 5 * 1.5 = 7.5 Effective sentries. Each sentry deals more damage than each turret. A Dominix with 3 DDAs can do 579 DPS at 103 + 42km ranges with Wardens. For Maelstrom with 3x Gyros and 1400s to reach that range, you have to use Tremor, giving you 395 DPS at 108 + 44 km. With Bouncers Domi does 620 DPS at 61 + 54km - Maelstrom can't reach those levels at all at this damage level. Try again. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]

Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 434	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:07:24 - [91] - Quote Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Zafrena Tyrleon wrote: You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls. More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore. That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS. Wrong. It would encourage people to start using other ships again as the ishtar would stop being completely oppressive within its weight class. Why would they do that? It isn't a pound for pound advantage the ishtar has over its class, it is the ability to deal damage from range while maintaining maximal transversal without adversely affecting its own dps. The only other cruisers that can do that are missile boats, which get their dps nerfed to the ground by firewalls. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:10:41 - [92] - Quote Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Zafrena Tyrleon wrote: You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls. More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore. That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS. Wrong. It would encourage people to start using other ships again as the ishtar would stop being completely oppressive within its weight class. Except it doesn't encourage it at all, because fundamentally the problem isn't resolved. Your think 3% damage reduction will stop Ishtars from being completely oppressive within their weight class? There's at least 40% difference between other HACs! // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 269	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:12:59 - [93] - Quote Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Can the Domi have access to fighters now, to balance the fact that Ishtars get access to heavy drones and sentries? Ok ok. I kid. Give the fighters to the sin.
Valterra Craven 544	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:20:45 - [94] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Quick question. How many sentys can you deploy on a domi? Quick question. How many artys can you fit on a mael? How quickly you change the topic from the Ishtar. So change the domi to the isthar, they both field the same amount. Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Don't try demagogy, it won't work. There is no need for this. Either you can have a civil debate or you can't. Only you decide. Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Each sentry deals more damage than each turret. Which is by design since you can field fewer of them. Or do you remember the time when you could field 10 drones and then they adjusted things to reduce lag? Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: A Dominix with 3 DDAs can do 579 DPS at 103 + 42km ranges with Wardens. For Maelstrom with 3x Gyros and 1400s to reach that range, you have to use Tremor, giving you 395 DPS at 108 + 44 km. . Or you could just switch to a raven which gets the same range and same dps with 3 bal controls. Or you could just use tacking computers.
Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 273	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:24:18 - [95] - Quote this will not damage the ishtar's dominance, as you can still fit BS-class weapons onto a HAC, the ishtar is a T2 Attack BC For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 434	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:24:49 - [96] - Quote Probably worth pointing out that if you remove sentries from ishtars, which you are on the road to doing, you have essentially removed it from fleet applications because lolsmartbombs against drones, unless you give the ishtar the Gila treatment, but if you do that, you end up with extreme conflict between those 2 hulls, which already don't see much use (Gila/non-sentry ishtar). Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:27:22 - [97] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: How quickly you change the topic from the Ishtar. So change the domi to the isthar, they both field the same amount. Try to understand that Ishtar is a HAC, operating at Battleship levels. It is not the same "amount". Quote: Which is by design since you can field fewer of them. And that is fine. Quote: Or you could just switch to a raven which gets the same range and same dps with 3 bal controls. Missile fleets are very situational. I can agree that Dominix at least is balanced in this regard - a Tachyon Apocalypse matches it in both range and damage. Quote: Or you could just use tacking computers. Which can be fitted on both weapons systems. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 269	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:28:48 - [98] - Quote Desudes wrote: Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Why would they do that? It isn't a pound for pound advantage the ishtar has over its class, it is the ability to deal damage from range while maintaining maximal transversal without adversely affecting its own dps. The only other cruisers that can do that are missile boats, which get their dps nerfed to the ground by firewalls. Its the ability to do all that without significant drawbacks while having far and away huge. Either reduce the raw power or give it real cons, I don't care. It needs a hammer either way. [quote=Iroquoiss Pliskin][quote=Hakaari Inkuran] Except it doesn't encourage it at all, because fundamentally the problem isn't resolved. Your think 3% damage reduction will stop Ishtars from being completely oppressive within their weight class? There's at least 40% difference between other HACs! We're discussing a 20% reduction. What's 4/5? I will point out that I'd also accept a nerf to 75Mbit rather than 100Mbit. I'm npt disagreeing with your position.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 263	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:31:49 - [99] - Quote You cannot remove sentries from the ishtar. For the simple reason that the ishtar will lose its role as a long range ship. Look at the other HACs. Zealot = optimal bonus muninn = optimal bonus eagle = optimal bonus (x2) Ishtar = optimal bonus All these ships are meant for longer range engagements. If you take away sentries completely.. how does the ishtar project damage? Heavies? Lol. Travel time + missing = no one will use it and it will turn into another brawler, or some kind of weird shortrange doctrine which goes completely against the role of these HACs. Yes the ishtar is dominating and semi-OP in large scale fights. But removing its only way at projecting the damage will turn it into the drake. Overnerfed and lost its role. Something to consider. Nerf sentry drones down to medium turret ranges and damage to balance around the other HACs and keepit in the same class. Create a new sentry for BS. Seige Sentry drone or w/e. Give it 400+ sig resolution, more range and slightly more damage. This keeps BS doctrines relatively unchanged but keeps with BS tracking/application. The only issue i see is with carriers.. Though having 400+ sig resolution will mean smaller ships should be able to sig/speed tank them better than current sentry mechanics. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 269	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:33:09 - [100] - Quote Desudes wrote: Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Zafrena Tyrleon wrote: You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls. More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore. That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS. Wrong. It would encourage people to start using other ships again as the ishtar would stop being completely oppressive within its weight class. Why would they do that? It isn't a pound for pound advantage the ishtar has over its class, it is the ability to deal damage from range while maintaining maximal transversal without adversely affecting its own dps. The only other cruisers that can do that are missile boats, which get their dps nerfed to the ground by firewalls. The problem is the ishtar has all that stuff, and oppressive raw damage, and minimal drawbacks (if any). Something has to give, I don't particularly care HOW it gives.

Valterra Craven 544	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:33:31 - [101] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Try to understand that Ishtar is a HAC, operating at Battleship levels. It is not the same "amount". Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Or you could just switch to a raven which gets the same range and same dps with 3 bal controls. Missile fleets are very situational. I can agree that Dominix at least is balanced in this regard - an Tachyon Apocalypse matches it in both range and damage. So if you think that the domi is balanced vs a tach apoc and a raven, then why exactly do you keep bringing up the point that sentries are broken, when even you think they are balanced against other BS platforms?! Seriously, the whole point of my posts was to point out that in the current meta the only real problem with sentries is the ishtar, not sentries themselves and to try and figure out what data ccp is looking at that makes them think otherwise
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:35:19 - [102] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: So if you think that the domi is balanced vs a tach apoc and a raven, then why exactly do you keep bringing up the point that sentries are broken I never stated sentries were broken, but their use on carriers is questionable and can not be balanced any other way. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Dentia Caecus Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:35:57 - [103] - Quote Why did CCP fail to seize an opportunity to make sentries a BS only platform, thereby mollifying the the major complaint by the players regrading the OP Ishtar? BS already have built in ( I shudder to use the word) balance: slow speed, deterrence by bomber fleets, other BS platforms can hit as far, etc. Instead of addressing the obvious error, the Ishtar hull bonus/or ability to use what ought to be a BS weapons system , the entire weapons system receives a nerf, the Ishtar is still OP, your customers are still upset and sentries slowly become a less and less viable weapon for any non-bonused vessel. Fozzie, I implore you to rethink this decision. Sometimes the easy answer is the right one: either reduce the drone bandwidth on the Ishtar to 75mbit or remove the sentry bonus or make the sentries a battleship only weapon system.
Khan Wrenth Hedion University Amarr Empire 156	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:37:36 - [104] - Quote There is only one acceptable sentry drone adjustment. Delete them from the game, they don't belong here. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Valterra Craven 544	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:39:00 - [105] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: You cannot remove sentries from the ishtar. For the simple reason that the ishtar will lose its role as a long range ship. Look at the other HACs. Zealot = optimal bonus muninn = optimal bonus eagle = optimal bonus (x2) Ishtar = optimal bonus All these ships are meant for longer range engagements. If you take away sentries completely.. how does the ishtar project damage? Heavies? Lol. Travel time + missing = no one will use it and it will turn into another brawler, or some kind of weird shortrange doctrine which goes completely against the role of these HACs. Yes the ishtar is dominating and semi-OP in large scale fights. But removing its only way at projecting the damage will turn it into the drake. Overnerfed and lost its role. Something to consider. Nerf sentry drones down to medium turret ranges and damage to balance around the other HACs and keepit in the same class. Create a new sentry for BS. Seige Sentry drone or w/e. Give it 400+ sig resolution, more range and slightly more damage. This keeps BS doctrines relatively unchanged but keeps with BS tracking/application. The only issue i see is with carriers.. Though having 400+ sig resolution will mean smaller ships should be able to sig/speed tank them better than current sentry mechanics. For starters, what is the range of those other weapon systems vs their dmg outpout? Also you forgot the missle boat.. you know things that have time to target issues. Seems to me if the cerb can cope with this issue just fine then hvys or meds should also be fine for the ishtar. Further nerfs of senty drones affects other platforms besides the ishtar, and those other platforms were already balanced before hand. The problem is the ishtar, not sentries.
Valterra Craven 544	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:41:20 - [106] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: I never stated sentries were broken, but their use on carriers is questionable and can not be balanced any other way. Why, there is nothing OP about a sentry carrier. Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Don't try to dodge it now. The only thing being dodged around here is your reading comprehension.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:43:30 - [107] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: I never stated sentries were broken, but their use on carriers is questionable and can not be balanced any other way. Why, there is nothing OP about a sentry carrier. Aha. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode ISD Community Communications Liaisons 5507	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:48:46 - [108] - Quote Removed a racist post. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Aijle Mijleroff Infernal Laboratory Infernal Octopus 47	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:51:28 - [109] - Quote CCP Fozzie if you nerf centry some people nerf subscription on eve! So, you smashed display attributes Drones year ago and only nerf nerf nerf. And not have brain fix this so, CCP Fozzie, I think you not have brain. You know that this nerf kill some kinds of ships?
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 434	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:55:40 - [110] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: You cannot remove sentries from the ishtar. For the simple reason that the ishtar will lose its role as a long range ship. Look at the other HACs. Zealot = optimal bonus muninn = optimal bonus eagle = optimal bonus (x2) Ishtar = optimal bonus All these ships are meant for longer range engagements. If you take away sentries completely.. how does the ishtar project damage? Heavies? Lol. Travel time + missing = no one will use it and it will turn into another brawler, or some kind of weird shortrange doctrine which goes completely against the role of these HACs. Yes the ishtar is dominating and semi-OP in large scale fights. But removing its only way at projecting the damage will turn it into the drake. Overnerfed and lost its role. Something to consider. Nerf sentry drones down to medium turret ranges and damage to balance around the other HACs and keepit in the same class. Create a new sentry for BS. Seige Sentry drone or w/e. Give it 400+ sig resolution, more range and slightly more damage. This keeps BS doctrines relatively unchanged but keeps with BS tracking/application. The only issue i see is with carriers.. Though having 400+ sig resolution will mean smaller ships should be able to sig/speed tank them better than current sentry mechanics. For starters, what is the range of those other weapon systems vs their dmg outpout? Also you forgot the missle boat.. you know things that have time to target issues. Seems to me if the cerb can cope with this issue just fine then hvys or meds should also be fine for the ishtar. Further nerfs of senty drones affects other platforms besides the ishtar, and those other platforms were already balanced before hand. The problem is the ishtar, not sentries. Range/dps is only part of the equation. Bouncer ishtar beats zealot on those terms until you actually add transversal, sig radius, fleet warp ins, and tracking into things. Zealots will require good piloting to win, but thats a slower comp vs a faster one for you, welcome to EVE v0v Also noteworthy: the zealots web lokis will survive, whereas the ishtars hugins will get blapped very quickly if they become a problem Heavy/med drone doctrines would be far more vulnerable to smartbombing than missiles, which is why no one is using non-sentry drone drone doctrines. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*

Chip Flux Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 47	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:56:40 - [111] - Quote This is fantastic Another Nerf I am so excited. CCP, you really know how to make this game great.
Lady Aesir Ghost Recon Inc 18	Posted - 2015.05.21 16:57:18 - [112] - Quote Ishtar A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD
Valterra Craven 544	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:01:34 - [113] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Don't try to dodge it now. The only thing being dodged around here is your reading comprehension. Woo, edgy and salty. Gal didn't know how relevant a Zealot is in an Ishtar discussion, heheh. The answer is a zealot isn't relevant to an Ishtar discussion. What a thing is can be pretty irrelevant to what a thing can do, especially when talking about issues of balance. The issue is that the ishtar is more likely compared to a bs given its a capability than it is compared to something like a zealot.
Viserion Pavarius RESET. SpaceMonkey's Alliance 8	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:01:37 - [114] - Quote But Warden's will stay untouched? :)
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 679	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:04:40 - [115] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Don't try to dodge it now. The only thing being dodged around here is your reading comprehension. Woo, edgy and salty. Gal didn't know how relevant a Zealot is in an Ishtar discussion, heheh. The answer is a zealot isn't relevant to an Ishtar discussion. What a thing is can be pretty irrelevant to what a thing can do, especially when talking about issues of balance. The issue is that the ishtar is more likely compared to a bs given its a capability than it is compared to something like a zealot. Hahaha. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Lyra Gerie Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 49	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:04:44 - [116] - Quote At this point I'm still not 100% convinced it's the drones that are the problem. Can CCP release some metrics that show their rational for the changes? I still feel like there could be other ways of addressing this than nerfing the drones. Especially when they're strongest on ishtars and navy vexors and almost nothing else. Not saying they aren't strong when not on those platforms, but rather they are not an issue on any other platforms. If that's the case then why are we nerfing the drones and not changing the ships?
Kaliba Mort Patriotic Tendencies Executive Outcomes 12	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:06:17 - [117] - Quote Obidiah Kane wrote: I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets... You are forgetting about the Drake. Never not train for a drake! Ishtars, Lokis and Svipuls are not really newbie ships anyway.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1172	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:06:31 - [118] - Quote i think drones need a much stronger dps nerf .. consider reducing the RoF on sentries Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Zafrena Tyrleon Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 5	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:18:31 - [119] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Zafrena Tyrleon wrote: You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls. More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore. That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS. The problem with this argument is that you completely devalue pilot numbers. If pilots and ships are free and not a balance point at all, then I guess everyone should show up in Supercarriers instead and we can all go home and not worry about this.
Alundil Isogen 5 962	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:21:47 - [120] - Quote Xavier Azabu wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: ...making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones... ...massaging drone combat... Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! Optimal nerf on Gardes is a little harsh. Maybe like 15%? No one uses them on towers or in kiting Ishtar combat anyway. The Curator and Bouncer nerf is needed. Will this finally discourage people from using the Ishtar? TrouserDeagle wrote: Quote: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff why? because of sentry drone optimal bonuses being too good? afkalt wrote: I think you're hurting the hulls which are not bonused for them disproportionately hard compared to the bonused ones. No-one complains about a sentry geddon. The issues sit firmly in the bonused hulls, who will feel this less because of their already huge advantage over their peer group. I know you like to balance the weapons and not blame hulls but in this case, it clearly IS the hulls. I have to agree with all three of these. Bouncers and Curators - sure. The optimal/damage/tracking to the gardes is a bit much, imo. Also, this is going to have some pretty negative downstream effects on non-bonused hulls. Reducing, overall, the "flavor" of ships seen out an about as those hulls become further sub-optimal. I'm right behind you

Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 680	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:23:59 - [121] - Quote Zafrena Tyrleon wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Zafrena Tyrleon wrote: You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls. More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore. That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS. The problem with this argument is that you completely devalue pilot numbers. If pilots and ships are free and not a balance point at all, then I guess everyone should show up in Supercarriers instead and we can all go home and not worry about this. There's a threshold, I guess. Ishtar damage with 4 Sentries would equal Eagle/Zealot w/ long-range ammo, but the issue of range for stuff like the Wardens is not resolved. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Zetheral Knights Of The Chloroform 2	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:26:58 - [122] - Quote I see all this complaining about sentries and the ishtar and bla bla bla... While this crazy suggestion would be a lot of work, I think it would be best for the game. Right now we have one level of sentries, which are equivalent to BS size weapons, but we have three levels or traditional drones, light, medium, heavy. Why not apply that same design schema to sentries?!?!?! Make light, medium, and heavy sentries. The current sentries would become the heavy size, and then make the medium for cruiser/BC size, and light for frigs. Scale the damage, range, tracking and HP for each level and then make the ishtar and other ships of its size to use only size of the drone designed for its class. This would open up the idea of using stationary drones for all kinds of fleets instead of just the niche set up they have now. You would pretty much have the choice or mobility or stationary drones for all sizes. This is a game about choices, having the ability to choose what kind of drone you field could be one of them, and a powerful one. This would effectively remove the issue that so many are yelling about, which is BS size weps on a fast moving cruiser.
Moac Tor Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation 68	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:28:15 - [123] - Quote Looks good. Now the combat drones could do with a look at, a reduction in DPS across the board would be a good start. Drone damage amplifiers and other such recent modifcations have pushed all types of drone use into a much too desirable place in the meta in my opinion and as is limiting other options.
Imperium Romanus Paxton Industries Tactical Narcotics Team 34	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:28:31 - [124] - Quote I welcome these much needed changes. Drone boats are the primary doctrines of most big alliances and are getting boring to be honest. Bring back variety! ;)
Sir Constantin 33	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:29:26 - [125] - Quote Gardes optimal and tracking nerf is too strong for my PVE ishtar. I guess it's time to look for alternatives.
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 435	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:30:21 - [126] - Quote Zafrena Tyrleon wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Zafrena Tyrleon wrote: You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls. More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore. That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS. The problem with this argument is that you completely devalue pilot numbers. If pilots and ships are free and not a balance point at all, then I guess everyone should show up in Supercarriers instead and we can all go home and not worry about this. What happens after your suggestion is that people still able to retain critical mass continue to be overpowered, while smaller entities that can no longer hold critical mass are unable to use ishtars as a fleet doctrine. The exact same thing counters ishtars, though you potentially need a little less of it, and the exact same thing dies to ishtars, though the ishtars potentially need more numbers. Every ishtar engagement I've seen or been in has been a landslide in one direction or the other, or a stalemate of not enough dps on both sides. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 275	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:33:36 - [127] - Quote what if sentries were split into small (10m3, 25 mbits), and large, (as current) with perhaps X-L (for use with supers), and seperate drone bay from fighter bay? However, I DO feel (whatever else), that CCP is missing the real issue with drones here.... For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Sof0s Parental Control 1	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:36:16 - [128] - Quote I think the proposed adjustments are bad . First because the reason that ishtar is used and is succesfull in big fights is not the damage or tracking . Desudes has explained why ishtars are good . Second cause its wrong to make adjustments just for the ishtar overuse in big fights because in small fights 2-3 people ishtars are nothing special . Also sentry drones in others ships are not that good .
Obil Que Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance 308	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:38:07 - [129] - Quote Alundil wrote: Bouncers and Curators - sure. The optimal/damage/tracking to the gardes is a bit much, imo. Also, this is going to have some pretty negative downstream effects on non-bonused hulls. Reducing, overall, the "flavor" of ships seen out an about as those hulls become further sub-optimal. I might have this totally wrong but... Geddon Garde Mosaic: 84 dps, 30km optimal, 18km falloff, 0.036 tracking Geddon Garde Carnyx: 82 dps, 22.5km optimal, 23.94km falloff, 0.0336 tracking Net change: -2 dps, -7.5km optimal, +5.94km falloff, -0.0024 tracking Mosaic falloff Damage projection: 42dps out to 48km Carnyx falloff Damage projection: 41dps out to 46.44km Dominix Garde Mosaic: 84 dps, 45km optimal, 18km falloff, 0.054 tracking Dominix Garde Carnyx: 82 dps, 33.75km optimal, 23.94km falloff, 0.0504 tracking Net change: -2 dps, -11.25km optimal, +5.94km falloff, -0.0036 tracking Mosaic falloff damage projection: 42 dps out to 63km Carnyx falloff damage projection: 41 dps out to 57.69 The Geddon vs. Dominix is Mosaic falloff difference: 15km in favor of the Dominix Carnyx falloff difference: 11.25km in favor of the Dominix It seems that in terms of falloff distances, the Geddon is actually closing the gap to the Dominix rather than being more severely punished. It's the same basically for the optimal calculations too. Again, unless I've totally messed up the math.
Alexis Nightwish 202	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:48:09 - [130] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone! For our Carnyx release at the beginning of June we're planning on making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones, part of our ongoing process of massaging drone combat into a healthier place in the meta. These are a very specific and limited set of changes that we believe will benefit the game, but it's important to know that these are explicitly not intended to be a "once and for all" fix for every problem related to sentries. There's no such thing as a balance silver bullet. The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas. Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! Still treating symptoms and not the cause. The cause is cruisers having bandwidth over 50mb. It's not an issue with the sentries themselves. CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 436	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:58:03 - [131] - Quote The irony of all this is nerfing this continues the trend of making sentries only useful for large blobs, which is supposedly what is being fixed. Ishtar sentries apply dps so poorly now that they are incredibly rare in small fights due to so many other ships being better. I changed from ishtar to nomen, a ship 1/4 the ishtars price, for small/micro gang due to how poorly the ishtar spplies dps at range now, as well as it has the fundamental issue of being unable to recall them if people start shooting them/you need to leave the field. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 684	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:58:25 - [132] - Quote Obil Que wrote: Alundil wrote: Bouncers and Curators - sure. The optimal/damage/tracking to the gardes is a bit much, imo. Also, this is going to have some pretty negative downstream effects on non-bonused hulls. Reducing, overall, the "flavor" of ships seen out an about as those hulls become further sub-optimal. I might have this totally wrong but... Geddon Garde Mosaic: 84 dps, 30km optimal, 18km falloff, 0.036 tracking Geddon Garde Carnyx: 82 dps, 22.5km optimal, 23.94km falloff, 0.0336 tracking Net change: -2 dps, -7.5km optimal, +5.94km falloff, -0.0024 tracking Mosaic falloff Damage projection: 42dps out to 48km Carnyx falloff Damage projection: 41dps out to 46.44km Dominix Garde Mosaic: 84 dps, 45km optimal, 18km falloff, 0.054 tracking Dominix Garde Carnyx: 82 dps, 33.75km optimal, 23.94km falloff, 0.0504 tracking Net change: -2 dps, -11.25km optimal, +5.94km falloff, -0.0036 tracking Mosaic falloff damage projection: 42 dps out to 63km Carnyx falloff damage projection: 41 dps out to 57.69 The Geddon vs. Dominix is Mosaic falloff difference: 15km in favor of the Dominix Carnyx falloff difference: 11.25km in favor of the Dominix It seems that in terms of falloff distances, the Geddon is actually closing the gap to the Dominix rather than being more severely punished. It's the same basically for the optimal calculations too. Again, unless I've totally messed up the math. Sounds about right, and spot on conclusion. Goodpoast. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1812	Posted - 2015.05.21 17:59:29 - [133] - Quote Why does the double bonus on the problematic hulls are allowed to stay for so damn long on ship that even CCP acknowledge are problematic? Is there any other weapon where a bonus to application and projection (tracking + optimal) in any form is present on the same bonus slot for a hull?
Jafit McJafitson Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 491	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:02:30 - [134] - Quote Alexis Nightwish wrote: Still treating symptoms and not the cause. The cause is cruisers having bandwidth over 50mb. It's not an issue with the sentries themselves. Bandwidth. Double bonuses. 375m^3 dronebay so you can spam 3 different flights of sentries, along with a mobile depot for more spares in your cargo. Enough grid and CPU to fit a full rack of cruiser-class highslot modules, yet the primary weapon system doesn't require any grid/cpu, so instead you can devote those fitting resources to tank or oversized propmods if you want. CCP never fails to go after the weapon system instead of fixing the ships that use those systems. Missiles get nerfed because of the Drake and the Tengu. Medium rails come in and the Tengu is back in force because they didn't fix the actual problem, which was the Tengu. But for good measure they did also nerf the Drake to the point where nobody uses it anymore. Then they do a balance pass on all sub-cruiser class ships, and THEN they come along and completely blow all that hard work away by introducing T3 destroyers. I've gotten past expecting any kind of sensible changes anymore. Just hang on to something and wait for them spin the wheel, and see what the next flavor-of-the-year ships are going to be. Thankfully after years of wheel spinning I can already fly all subcaps so I don't care where it lands.
Beta Maoye 64	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:03:05 - [135] - Quote People spent long training time to brush up drone skills. Sentry is the most powerful drone for sub-capitals. Players will not give them up easily. If you find many people shifted to use other weapons, that means you have already nerfed drone to hell. Why do you give us Ishtar and Domi in first place? Isn't drone a weapon system on par with gun and missile?
Mario Putzo 1419	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:05:59 - [136] - Quote Why not just remove them from the game if only hull bonused ships have capacity to make them useful. Just give all combat drones a sentry mode, and a mobile mode. Sentry mode + Optimal + Tracking - ROF Immobile Mobile Mode +Fall Off + ROF - Tracking Mobile. Remove sentries, and the tier the remaining 3 drone sizes to size appropriate hulls Frig/Dessie Drone Boats, bonused to Lights Cruiser/BC Hulls bonused to Meds BS hulls Bonused to Heavies. Things done to balance sentries - Numerous hull changes - Entire new drone system for Guristas - One previous balance pass for sentries - Additional changes to drone application modules - Rework of the drone assist system - Moving sentries behind further behind a training wall + net reduction in all drone capability - more direct nerfs to hulls - yet another balance pass at sentries - a "nerf" to the Ishtar - yet another sentry balance pass Want a silver bullet...press delete.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 686	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:08:44 - [137] - Quote Jafit McJafitson wrote: Alexis Nightwish wrote: Still treating symptoms and not the cause. The cause is cruisers having bandwidth over 50mb. It's not an issue with the sentries themselves. Bandwidth. Double bonuses. 375m^3 dronebay so you can spam 3 different flights of sentries, along with a mobile depot for more spares in your cargo. Enough grid and CPU to fit a full rack of cruiser-class highslot modules, yet the primary weapon system doesn't require any grid/cpu, so instead you can devote those fitting resources to tank or oversized propmods if you want. CCP never fails to go after the weapon system instead of fixing the ships that use those systems. Well, they've proven to be flexible with T3Ds, though those hulls are very new. Perhaps Ishtar subscription numbers are far too strong? Quote: Missiles get nerfed because of the Drake and the Tengu. Medium rails come in and the Tengu is back in force because they didn't fix the actual problem, which was the Tengu. But for good measure they did also nerf the Drake to the point where nobody uses it anymore. To be fair, Hybrids were overbuffed and later rectified. T3s still broken, but something something will be done soonGäó. Quote: I've gotten past expecting any kind of sensible changes anymore. Just hang on to something and wait for them spin the wheel, and see what the next flavor-of-the-year ships are going to be. Thankfully after years of wheel spinning I can already fly all subcaps so I don't care where it lands. Flavour of the year sounds about right. Odyssey 1.1 update is from Sept, 2013. Mario Putzo wrote: Why not just remove them from the game if only hull bonused ships have capacity to make them useful. Just give all combat drones a sentry mode, and a mobile mode. Sentry mode + Optimal + Tracking - ROF Immobile Mobile Mode +Fall Off + ROF - Tracking Mobile. Interesting idea, the Mode thing would have to happen either while in the Dronebay, or even before you undock. Muahaha. RoF penalty would have to be substantial if it's the former - can't have Mega Pulses and Tachyon Beams rolled into one. P.S. Sentry module. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Corey Lean GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 90	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:13:39 - [138] - Quote Just delete the Ishtar
Nasar Vyron S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS. 65	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:14:04 - [139] - Quote The issue, I have said a dozen times and more already, is that sentries are a stationary weapon platform which allow for their user to kite around them forcing their opponents to stay within optimal - or hug the drone cluster. If they go with the latter, Ishtars (the main offender) will simply drop another flight of sentries which will now be at optimal of their target forcing them to leave field or run the gauntlet in an attempt to close the gap. If they choose the former, then they can attempt to slug it out while taking optimal damage from a battleship level drone. The problem is the level of power granted to a cruiser hull which is capable of both fitting tank and kite. You can either: a) continue to nerf sentries which affect multiple hulls not just the Ishtar's which exacerbate the problem. (if it didn't work the first 5 times maybe the 6th?) b) attack the ship by reducing the drone drone bay making the kite away and drop a new flight impossible. (this is stupid) c) go after the problem, which is the control range on sentries which allow for agile ships to force their opponents into their optimal rather than treating them like the stationary-sniping platform that they are. Give sentries a 20km control range, after which the pilot will lose control and the sentries drop locks. Notice how option c stops nerfing the slower BS hulls which this particular weapon system was designed for. At the same time forces cruiser hulls to accept the drawbacks of a BS sniping platform by either remaining relatively close to their stationary drones, or switch to mobile (light/medium/heavy) drones if they desire to keep their mobility. In short, it accomplishes hitting the damage projection currently seen from kiting drone doctrines without further nerfing completely unrelated hulls which make proper use of sentries - as a sniping platform.
SFM Hobb3s Wrecking Shots Black Legion. 298	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:14:56 - [140] - Quote Liking the change. In general I've always hated droneboats. Anything that discourages their use is fine by me. Makes those huge battles much easier on the Hamsters when there aren't 10's of thousands of drones being abandoned into space (sometimes purposefully to induce more tidi)

motie one Secret Passage 17	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:16:27 - [141] - Quote I do understand, that most uses of the sentry drones of the affected types, have been causing problems with certain ships, especially the Ishtar, but other ships, with the bandwidth to use them (rattlesnake etc) are getting a little chipped away at. This adds up. Now if Heavy drones were actually useful other than close up, then it would not be an issue. The gila shows that Fast, strong, medium drones are effective as a mid range weapon, heavies are appalling as a long range choice, so sentries are always selected, so to give choices, how about the following? Increase heavy drone speed by a large amount, make them comparable to medium drones in speed. Due to the size, and space for additional electronics, allow a built in drone control range extension. Allow inbuilt ecm to break "rat" lock on recall, so they do not always die to the first webbing rat frigate. This would allow heavy drones to actually have a role, other than ultra close range and not the case of " choose sentries always". Choices to be made as which works better in each tactical situation, is that not the general idea we should be aiming at?
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:19:14 - [142] - Quote Taram Caldar wrote: Just my opinion but sentries aren't the problem, currently. The problem is the bonuses on the ishtar that push their drone damage, in general, so over and above the damage output of other ships in their peer group... Ishtar Sentry damage is already in line with ships of their class. This happened the last balance pass on the hull when damage bonus was cut in half from 50% to 25%. They have maximal dps with Heavy Drones which have their own shortcomings. The tracking/optimal bonus of 25% on the Ishtar Sentries and 37.5% on the Domi ones are significant but not out of line with other ranged systems. Let's compare 3 HACs, bonuses only: An Eagle gets: 20% shield resists, 50% optimal, 50% optimal, 25% damage. A Zealot gets a 50% weapon cap use bonus, 25% RoF bonus, 50% optimal bonus, and 25% raw damage bonus. An Ishtar gets 25% drone HP, 25% damage, 25% optimal, and 25% tracking. The Eagle gets 1x tank bonus, 2x range, 1x damage, The Zealot gets 2x damage bonuses and 1x range bonus The Ishtar gets 1x damage, 1x range, and 1x applicaiton. The bonuses are all in line with each other. It is the weapon system that then makes them stand apart. ****************** The problem with drone boats is this: the different ship classes share 1 ranged weapon type with no size variance. It has been brought up in the past that there should be a Medium Sentry and a Large Sentry. And now that Sentries are coming under the knife it is time to address this problem. Some people complain that cruisers should not be able to use a battleship weapon system. But sentries have never been exclusively battleship and up. The issue is they had to be strong enough for BS and that has caused issues with the Ishtar balance. Hence why they nerfed all the sentry bonuses on that hull. Are the sentry stats too strong when used by the Dominix and Armageddon? Or are they too good on cruiser hulls? If the latter then the solution is introduce a new set of sentries balanced for medium weapon strengths, and adjust appropriate hull bonuses in line with these new drones. Then rebalance the original sentry into a BS+ system and be done. No need to put restrictions or new bandwidths in place, if a cruiser is only bonused for medium sentries it will likely not make sense to field the larger size.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 686	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:24:30 - [143] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: Taram Caldar wrote: Just my opinion but sentries aren't the problem, currently. The problem is the bonuses on the ishtar that push their drone damage, in general, so over and above the damage output of other ships in their peer group... Ishtar Sentry damage is already in line with ships of their class. This happened the last balance pass on the hull when damage bonus was cut in half from 50% to 25%. They have maximal dps with Heavy Drones which have their own shortcomings. The tracking/optimal bonus of 25% on the Ishtar Sentries and 37.5% on the Domi ones are significant but not out of line with other ranged systems. Let's compare 3 HACs, bonuses only: An Eagle gets: 20% shield resists, 50% optimal, 50% optimal, 25% damage. A Zealot gets a 50% weapon cap use bonus, 25% RoF bonus, 50% optimal bonus, and 25% raw damage bonus. An Ishtar gets 25% drone HP, 25% damage, 25% optimal, and 25% tracking. The Eagle gets 1x tank bonus, 2x range, 1x damage, The Zealot gets 2x damage bonuses and 1x range bonus The Ishtar gets 1x damage, 1x range, and 1x applicaiton. The bonuses are all in line with each other. Still waiting for a Zealot setup that can do 420 dps at 160 km. Eagle can reach that with CN Plutonium at 58+20 km. Quote: It is the weapon system that then makes them stand apart. So just a battleship-sized weapons system. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:26:38 - [144] - Quote SFM Hobb3s wrote: Liking the change. In general I've always hated droneboats. Anything that discourages their use is fine by me. Makes those huge battles much easier on the Hamsters when there aren't 10's of thousands of drones being abandoned into space (sometimes purposefully to induce more tidi) [Sarcasm] We should get rid of everything except missiles, then it would all be balanced. [/Sarcasm] There are different weapon systems that behave in different ways, let us not get rid variety because you don't like one of the flavors.
Stinkie Wizzleteats Spartan Industries 0	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:29:18 - [145] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone! For our Carnyx release at the beginning of June we're planning on making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones, part of our ongoing process of massaging drone combat into a healthier place in the meta. These are a very specific and limited set of changes that we believe will benefit the game, but it's important to know that these are explicitly not intended to be a "once and for all" fix for every problem related to sentries. There's no such thing as a balance silver bullet. The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas. Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! So, you are making this change to specifically address the bouncers and curators and yet....you nerd the **** out of the gardes....the fleet meta uses the drone in which you specially said this was to address. So with the same fit, same char in a unbounded hull (two drones racking links with optimal range,. Gardes 44k optimal, bouncers 67k optimal, curators 78k optimal, wardens 111k optimal. so why are you reducing optimal of the grade to 33k optimal?..
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1813	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:29:51 - [146] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: An Eagle gets: 20% shield resists, 50% optimal, 50% optimal, 25% damage. A Zealot gets a 50% weapon cap use bonus, 25% RoF bonus, 50% optimal bonus, and 25% raw damage bonus. An Ishtar gets 25% drone HP, 25% damage, 25% optimal, and 25% tracking. The Eagle gets 1x tank bonus, 2x range, 1x damage, The Zealot gets 2x damage bonuses and 1x range bonus The Ishtar gets 1x damage, 1x range, and 1x applicaiton. You forgot to list the cap usage reduction as a bonus to damage in your shortlist I guess. You also missed the 5000m/level drone range on the Ishtar which is a projection bonus, especially on sentries.
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 436	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:30:21 - [147] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: Taram Caldar wrote: Just my opinion but sentries aren't the problem, currently. The problem is the bonuses on the ishtar that push their drone damage, in general, so over and above the damage output of other ships in their peer group... Ishtar Sentry damage is already in line with ships of their class. This happened the last balance pass on the hull when damage bonus was cut in half from 50% to 25%. They have maximal dps with Heavy Drones which have their own shortcomings. The tracking/optimal bonus of 25% on the Ishtar Sentries and 37.5% on the Domi ones are significant but not out of line with other ranged systems. Let's compare 3 HACs, bonuses only: An Eagle gets: 20% shield resists, 50% optimal, 50% optimal, 25% damage. A Zealot gets a 50% weapon cap use bonus, 25% RoF bonus, 50% optimal bonus, and 25% raw damage bonus. An Ishtar gets 25% drone HP, 25% damage, 25% optimal, and 25% tracking. The Eagle gets 1x tank bonus, 2x range, 1x damage, The Zealot gets 2x damage bonuses and 1x range bonus The Ishtar gets 1x damage, 1x range, and 1x applicaiton. The bonuses are all in line with each other. Still waiting for a Zealot setup that can do 420 dps at 160 km. Eagle can reach that with CN Plutonium at 58+20 km. Quote: It is the weapon system that then makes them stand apart. So just a battleship-sized weapons system. Apples/oranges comparison. zealot will have half again the ehp of a fleet ishtar, a tiny signature, the zealots dps is where the ship is, not where he drops it, fleet zealots are typically AB brawlers, not shield kiters, even beam zealot has significantly more tracking... 160km drone control range is nigh impossible with any tank due to cpu. 120ish is feasible. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 686	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:33:37 - [148] - Quote Desudes wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: Taram Caldar wrote: Just my opinion but sentries aren't the problem, currently. The problem is the bonuses on the ishtar that push their drone damage, in general, so over and above the damage output of other ships in their peer group... Ishtar Sentry damage is already in line with ships of their class. This happened the last balance pass on the hull when damage bonus was cut in half from 50% to 25%. They have maximal dps with Heavy Drones which have their own shortcomings. The tracking/optimal bonus of 25% on the Ishtar Sentries and 37.5% on the Domi ones are significant but not out of line with other ranged systems. Let's compare 3 HACs, bonuses only: An Eagle gets: 20% shield resists, 50% optimal, 50% optimal, 25% damage. A Zealot gets a 50% weapon cap use bonus, 25% RoF bonus, 50% optimal bonus, and 25% raw damage bonus. An Ishtar gets 25% drone HP, 25% damage, 25% optimal, and 25% tracking. The Eagle gets 1x tank bonus, 2x range, 1x damage, The Zealot gets 2x damage bonuses and 1x range bonus The Ishtar gets 1x damage, 1x range, and 1x applicaiton. The bonuses are all in line with each other. Still waiting for a Zealot setup that can do 420 dps at 160 km. Eagle can reach that with CN Plutonium at 58+20 km. Quote: It is the weapon system that then makes them stand apart. So just a battleship-sized weapons system. Apples/oranges comparison. zealot will have half again the ehp of a fleet ishtar, a tiny signature, the zealots dps is where the ship is, not where he drops it, fleet zealots are typically AB brawlers, not shield kiters, even beam zealot has significantly more tracking... Except that you can have all of the above on the Ishtard, with yes, 50% more EHP and project to ranges where Zealot and Eagle are blown into stellar dust, hence they are not employed. Anymore. I'll update this post with tracking metrics in a sec. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16409	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:34:40 - [149] - Quote Elenahina wrote: Obidiah Kane wrote: :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. You get used to it - this happens a lot in Eve, especially for newer players. Best advice I was ever given was do not specialize - the more ships you know how to fly, the more nerf proof you are. Endorsing this. Train everything, shrug at nerfs and enjoy the buffs "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1814	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:36:44 - [150] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Elenahina wrote: Obidiah Kane wrote: :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. You get used to it - this happens a lot in Eve, especially for newer players. Best advice I was ever given was do not specialize - the more ships you know how to fly, the more nerf proof you are. Endorsing this. Train everything, shrug at nerfs and enjoy the buffs It's kind of a large goal when starting EVE tho.

Alexis Nightwish 203	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:39:01 - [151] - Quote To all of you who say sentries and heavies, being BS class weapons, should not be on these cruiser class hulls, let me tell you I've gone down that road and it leads to nowhere. CCP Rise wrote: This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries. We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well. I think the best course of action is to address the rediculous bandwidth cruisers have. Logical progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums: Frigate: 25mb Destroyer: 40mb Cruiser: 50mb Battlecruiser: 100mb Battleship: 125mb Current, and fundementally flawed progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums: Frigate: 25mb Destroyer: 35mb Cruiser: 125mb Battlecruiser: 100mb Battleship: 125mb CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Irya Boone Never Surrender. 465	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:43:58 - [152] - Quote stop nerfing drones for god sake the only problem with drones is Ishtar but not sentries , sentries are the only way drones can match guns or missiles because .. of speed and damage application CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !! you shall all bow and pray BoB
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:44:39 - [153] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Why does the double bonus on the problematic hulls are allowed to stay for so damn long on ship that even CCP acknowledge are problematic? Is there any other weapon where a bonus to application and projection (tracking + optimal) in any form is present on the same bonus slot for a hull? Looking at other HACs the Munnin gets rate of fire, damage, optimal, and tracking; which from a bonus only comparison is better than the Ishtar's. Several other HACs get double damage bonuses and double range, some only get one range bonus. The fact that the Ishtar gets one for damage, one for optimal, and one for tracking is not out of line with other HACs. It is the weapon system that makes the bonuses more meaningful.
punch monke Spartan Industries 1	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:46:56 - [154] - Quote Kinda redicious that why you say your nerfing primarily bounces and curators, you still nerd the gardes range to 1/4 of the actual range. They already like 70% the range or bouncers, 60% the range of curators, and 40% the range or wardens. After your proposed changes the optimal of gardes will be 50% of bouncers, 43% of curators, and 30% of wardens. Pretty sure the dps of these do not match the optimal ranges. Seems as though it was balanced with the current setup
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 437	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:47:04 - [155] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Except that you can have all of the above on the Ishtard, with yes, 50% more EHP and project to ranges where Zealot and Eagle are blown into stellar dust, hence they are not employed. Anymore. I'll update this post with tracking metrics in a sec. plz link a 120k+ ehp ishtar fit with DLAs in the highs and dmg in the lows. Most fleet ishtars are going to be 40-65k ehp depending on their range/tracking mods, with 95ish to 115ish drone control range (1 DLA or 2) Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Deacon Abox Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 502	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:55:51 - [156] - Quote Alexhandr Shkarov wrote: I hope one day the Ishtar loses any sentry bonuses, and instead is more tailored to heavy-drone platforms. It retains a lot of the power but no longer the range that sentries can project damage at. That's called a Rattlesnake, Gila, Worm. Also, the damage multiplier on the Ishtar was already addressed. CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 687	Posted - 2015.05.21 18:59:17 - [157] - Quote Desudes wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Except that you can have all of the above on the Ishtard, with yes, 50% more EHP and project to ranges where Zealot and Eagle are blown into stellar dust, hence they are not employed. Anymore. I'll update this post with tracking metrics in a sec. plz link a 120k+ ehp ishtar fit with DLAs in the highs and dmg in the lows. Where do you get 120k from? A Zealot with a 800mm plate is 40k EHP with 50% more you get 60k for the Ishtar. Sentry Tracking vs Heavy Beams as promised, Tracking/Chance to hit AB HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/UV7IoZc.png DPS: http://i.imgur.com/GzxCLYe.png Tracking/Chance to hit MWD HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/84VLxdJ.png DPS: http://i.imgur.com/JgzRSH1.png Yes, the Zealot has 8.33 effective turrets and the 7.5 sentries - yet it still achieves 25% more DPS. Balanced game, yo. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1255	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:01:41 - [158] - Quote Who puts 800s on a zealot...wtaf
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 437	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:03:46 - [159] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Desudes wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Except that you can have all of the above on the Ishtard, with yes, 50% more EHP and project to ranges where Zealot and Eagle are blown into stellar dust, hence they are not employed. Anymore. I'll update this post with tracking metrics in a sec. plz link a 120k+ ehp ishtar fit with DLAs in the highs and dmg in the lows. Where do you get 120k from? A Zealot with a 800mm plate is 40k EHP with 50% more you get 60k for the Ishtar. Sentry Tracking vs Heavy Beams as promised, Tracking/Chance to hit AB HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/UV7IoZc.png DPS: http://i.imgur.com/GzxCLYe.png Tracking/Chance to hit MWD HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/84VLxdJ.png DPS: http://i.imgur.com/JgzRSH1.png Yes, the Zealot has 8.33 effective turrets and the 7.5 sentries - yet it still achieves 25% more DPS. Balanced game, yo. Thats why you put a 1600mm plate on it. 84km ehp and 83m sig radius with legion links. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 687	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:05:42 - [160] - Quote Desudes wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Desudes wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Except that you can have all of the above on the Ishtard, with yes, 50% more EHP and project to ranges where Zealot and Eagle are blown into stellar dust, hence they are not employed. Anymore. I'll update this post with tracking metrics in a sec. plz link a 120k+ ehp ishtar fit with DLAs in the highs and dmg in the lows. Where do you get 120k from? A Zealot with a 800mm plate is 40k EHP with 50% more you get 60k for the Ishtar. Sentry Tracking vs Heavy Beams as promised, Tracking/Chance to hit AB HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/UV7IoZc.png DPS: http://i.imgur.com/GzxCLYe.png Tracking/Chance to hit MWD HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/84VLxdJ.png DPS: http://i.imgur.com/JgzRSH1.png Yes, the Zealot has 8.33 effective turrets and the 7.5 sentries - yet it still achieves 25% more DPS. Balanced game, yo. Thats why you put a 1600mm plate on it. 84km ehp and 83m sig radius with legion links. And 45% less DPS than the Ishtar, which has the same EHP. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]

Deacon Abox Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 502	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:06:30 - [161] - Quote afkalt wrote: Who puts 800s on a zealot...wtaf Posting alts ? CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
Valterra Craven 545	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:08:21 - [162] - Quote Alexis Nightwish wrote: To all of you who say sentries and heavies, being BS class weapons, should not be on these cruiser class hulls, let me tell you I've gone down that road and it leads to nowhere. CCP Rise wrote: This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries. We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well. I think the best course of action is to address the rediculous bandwidth cruisers have. Logical progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums: Frigate: 25mb Destroyer: 40mb Cruiser: 50mb Battlecruiser: 100mb Battleship: 125mb Current, and fundementally flawed progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums: Frigate: 25mb Destroyer: 35mb Cruiser: 125mb Battlecruiser: 100mb Battleship: 125mb But that still doesn't address the ridiculous amount of range the ishtar is able to achieve. Cruisers should NOT be able to shoot that far.
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 437	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:08:38 - [163] - Quote link your ishtar fit that is getting these numbers. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Valterra Craven 545	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:11:46 - [164] - Quote link your eagle zealot cerb munnin fit.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1814	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:13:27 - [165] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Why does the double bonus on the problematic hulls are allowed to stay for so damn long on ship that even CCP acknowledge are problematic? Is there any other weapon where a bonus to application and projection (tracking + optimal) in any form is present on the same bonus slot for a hull? Looking at other HACs the Munnin gets rate of fire, damage, optimal, and tracking; which from a bonus only comparison is better than the Ishtar's. Several other HACs get double damage bonuses and double range, some only get one range bonus. The fact that the Ishtar gets one for damage, one for optimal, and one for tracking is not out of line with other HACs. It is the weapon system that makes the bonuses more meaningful. Ishtar sentries gets bonus to damage, optimal, tracking and range. That's 4 bonus just like other HAC gets on top of another bonus specifically targeted at heavy drones. Drone control range is the same as missile flight time/max velocity. It's a projection bonus especially when it's possible to reach the normal drone control range with your primary weapon system (sentries). Quad weapon bonus at the cost of 3 bonus slot. Scrap the tracking or optimal which occupy the same slot so it's like other ships.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:13:58 - [166] - Quote Desudes wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: Taram Caldar wrote: Just my opinion but sentries aren't the problem, currently. The problem is the bonuses on the ishtar that push their drone damage, in general, so over and above the damage output of other ships in their peer group... Ishtar Sentry damage is already in line with ships of their class. This happened the last balance pass on the hull when damage bonus was cut in half from 50% to 25%. They have maximal dps with Heavy Drones which have their own shortcomings. The tracking/optimal bonus of 25% on the Ishtar Sentries and 37.5% on the Domi ones are significant but not out of line with other ranged systems. Let's compare 3 HACs, bonuses only: An Eagle gets: 20% shield resists, 50% optimal, 50% optimal, 25% damage. A Zealot gets a 50% weapon cap use bonus, 25% RoF bonus, 50% optimal bonus, and 25% raw damage bonus. An Ishtar gets 25% drone HP, 25% damage, 25% optimal, and 25% tracking. The Eagle gets 1x tank bonus, 2x range, 1x damage, The Zealot gets 2x damage bonuses and 1x range bonus The Ishtar gets 1x damage, 1x range, and 1x applicaiton. The bonuses are all in line with each other. Still waiting for a Zealot setup that can do 420 dps at 160 km. Eagle can reach that with CN Plutonium at 58+20 km. Quote: It is the weapon system that then makes them stand apart. So just a battleship-sized weapons system. Apples/oranges comparison. zealot will have half again the ehp of a fleet ishtar, a tiny signature, the zealots dps is where the ship is, not where he drops it, fleet zealots are typically AB brawlers, not shield kiters, even beam zealot has significantly more tracking... 160km drone control range is nigh impossible with any tank due to cpu. 120ish is feasible. I'm addressing people that have issue with the Ishtar bonuses as being far and above all other HACs. I went through and looked at the the bonuses on all the HACs and the Ishtar bonuses are in line with all the other HACs so it is not a bonuses issue. That is why you see CCP now adjusting the weapon system and not the one hull. My point is that they are on the right track but it is probably a better solution to create a ranged weapon for drone ships below Battleship class and adjust accordingly.
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 437	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:15:30 - [167] - Quote been forever since ive run a zealot but from what i remember: http://i.imgur.com/QP1mWJp.png basic fit. mids, ammo, and tank changed around as needed. Plz show me an ishtar with 50% more tank that is pushing these super dupes range numbers Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1256	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:16:14 - [168] - Quote Deacon Abox wrote: afkalt wrote: Who puts 800s on a zealot...wtaf Posting alts ? No, we have our dignity.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1816	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:17:57 - [169] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: I'm addressing people that have issue with the Ishtar bonuses as being far and above all other HACs. I went through and looked at the the bonuses on all the HACs and the Ishtar bonuses are in line with all the other HACs so it is not a bonuses issue. That is why you see CCP now adjusting the weapon system and not the one hull. My point is that they are on the right track but it is probably a better solution to create a ranged weapon for drone ships below Battleship class and adjust accordingly. Too bad out of 3 ship you messed your count on 2 of them...
Maxi Dap University of Caille Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:21:21 - [170] - Quote The best solution would be to limit the number of ships that can target the same ship, a built in Target Spectrum breaker in to the mechanics of EvE, one that takes drones in to account as well.

Catherine Laartii Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 540	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:21:58 - [171] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! I think what you need to do is compare these drones to what they are supposed to be competing with. So for example, is the garde supposed to be competitive with blasters or rails? If blasters, then gardes need high damage, high tracking, low range. If rails, then gardes need moderate damage, low tracking, high range. From there you just compare how many drones a player has and find dps profiles that match ships, So for example a blaster mega compared to a garde wielding domi. Given you keep nuking the optimal of the garde it seems to me you want to compare it to blasters, so why are you still nuking the tracking and damage on it? Because sentry drones are battleship weapons, and modifying them to behave more like them is a step in the right direction.
Alexis Nightwish 204	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:22:35 - [172] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: Alexis Nightwish wrote: To all of you who say sentries and heavies, being BS class weapons, should not be on these cruiser class hulls, let me tell you I've gone down that road and it leads to nowhere. CCP Rise wrote: This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries. We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well. I think the best course of action is to address the rediculous bandwidth cruisers have. Logical progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums: Frigate: 25mb Destroyer: 40mb Cruiser: 50mb Battlecruiser: 100mb Battleship: 125mb Current, and fundementally flawed progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums: Frigate: 25mb Destroyer: 35mb Cruiser: 125mb Battlecruiser: 100mb Battleship: 125mb But that still doesn't address the ridiculous amount of range the ishtar is able to achieve. Cruisers should NOT be able to shoot that far. I personally don't have issue with a cruiser being able to hit that far when it's DPS is <200. And if it is an issue, remove the optimal range bonus too. CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 687	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:23:18 - [173] - Quote Desudes wrote: link your ishtar fit Standard fit, Quote: [Universal Taggof] Internal Force Field Array I Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction EM Ward Field II Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Without the DLAs, or if you deploy w/ ABs you can fit LSE IIs and get 62k EHP unlinked. So what of that sentry tracking? It is a 400 m resolution weapons system, must be bad, right? Right. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1816	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:24:17 - [174] - Quote Alexis Nightwish wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Alexis Nightwish wrote: To all of you who say sentries and heavies, being BS class weapons, should not be on these cruiser class hulls, let me tell you I've gone down that road and it leads to nowhere. CCP Rise wrote: This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries. We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well. I think the best course of action is to address the rediculous bandwidth cruisers have. Logical progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums: Frigate: 25mb Destroyer: 40mb Cruiser: 50mb Battlecruiser: 100mb Battleship: 125mb Current, and fundementally flawed progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums: Frigate: 25mb Destroyer: 35mb Cruiser: 125mb Battlecruiser: 100mb Battleship: 125mb But that still doesn't address the ridiculous amount of range the ishtar is able to achieve. Cruisers should NOT be able to shoot that far. I personally don't have issue with a cruiser being able to hit that far when it's DPS is <200. Until a medium sized organisation bring 100 of them and you now deal with 20k dps...
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:26:15 - [175] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Why does the double bonus on the problematic hulls are allowed to stay for so damn long on ship that even CCP acknowledge are problematic? Is there any other weapon where a bonus to application and projection (tracking + optimal) in any form is present on the same bonus slot for a hull? Looking at other HACs the Munnin gets rate of fire, damage, optimal, and tracking; which from a bonus only comparison is better than the Ishtar's. Several other HACs get double damage bonuses and double range, some only get one range bonus. The fact that the Ishtar gets one for damage, one for optimal, and one for tracking is not out of line with other HACs. It is the weapon system that makes the bonuses more meaningful. Ishtar sentries gets bonus to damage, optimal, tracking and range. That's 4 bonus just like other HAC gets on top of another bonus specifically targeted at heavy drones. Drone control range is the same as missile flight time/max velocity. It's a projection bonus especially when it's possible to reach the normal drone control range with your primary weapon system (sentries). Quad weapon bonus at the cost of 3 bonus slot. Scrap the tracking or optimal which occupy the same slot so it's like other ships. People keep confusing control range as a range bonus when it is comparable to a targeting computer. It lets you lock farther out and start shooting, but if you are outside falloff you are not going to hit anything. Using a Garde with 50 control range vs one with 120 control range is not going to let the drone hit a target any better. Yes I missed the control range bonus since I was mainly looking at Sentries wich is what this thread is about. It helps mobile drones but due to travel time and not being as disposable as missiles, it is not really a good comparison to missile flight time/velocity.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1816	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:27:30 - [176] - Quote Maxi Dap wrote: The best solution would be to limit the number of ships that can target the same ship, a built in Target Spectrum breaker in to the mechanics of EvE, one that takes drones in to account as well. Drone being the best counter to logi is a good idea...
GREYBOBSASS Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 29	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:29:04 - [177] - Quote one question since i have a deja-vu, why are you nerfing sentries instead of ishtar? you basicly trashing all sentry fits on every 125m3 dronebay boat except ishtar and dominix, same as you did with heavy missile launchers and drakes a couple of years ago, instead of nerfing an overpowered ship you nerfed the weapon system. dont remember using heavy missiles since then well except my tengu which i flown more for the looks and sentiment than its ** performance. gues on battlehsips its just geckos all the way now and sentries for the two dedicated ships ishtar/domi im not complaining i just dont get the reasoning behind amount of nerfs. From sales perspective it just looks like the product youre selling is unbalanced and not worth engaing in, then again see player numbers its like half of what it used to be 4 years ago and still you guys telling us eve is growing, dont get me wron i love the game but some changes are just so full of ** i just dont get them
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1817	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:29:39 - [178] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Why does the double bonus on the problematic hulls are allowed to stay for so damn long on ship that even CCP acknowledge are problematic? Is there any other weapon where a bonus to application and projection (tracking + optimal) in any form is present on the same bonus slot for a hull? Looking at other HACs the Munnin gets rate of fire, damage, optimal, and tracking; which from a bonus only comparison is better than the Ishtar's. Several other HACs get double damage bonuses and double range, some only get one range bonus. The fact that the Ishtar gets one for damage, one for optimal, and one for tracking is not out of line with other HACs. It is the weapon system that makes the bonuses more meaningful. Ishtar sentries gets bonus to damage, optimal, tracking and range. That's 4 bonus just like other HAC gets on top of another bonus specifically targeted at heavy drones. Drone control range is the same as missile flight time/max velocity. It's a projection bonus especially when it's possible to reach the normal drone control range with your primary weapon system (sentries). Quad weapon bonus at the cost of 3 bonus slot. Scrap the tracking or optimal which occupy the same slot so it's like other ships. People keep confusing control range as a range bonus when it is comparable to a targeting computer. It lets you lock farther out and start shooting, but if you are outside falloff you are not going to hit anything. Using a Garde with 50 control range vs one with 120 control range is not going to let the drone hit a target any better. Yes I missed the control range bonus since I was mainly looking at Sentries wich is what this thread is about. It helps mobile drones but due to travel time and not being as disposable as missiles, it is not really a good comparison to missile flight time/velocity. The sentries range cap out much shorter if not for this projection bonus. This is why it needs to be counted as projection. Normal drone boat range cap out much closer to ishtar because of that. If you don't see it as a projection bonus, you are delusional. People fit DLAs to their but a bonus to drone range does not count because :reasons:...
Vandarra Deneroth Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:31:32 - [179] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! While these changes are all good dealing with the Domi and Archon meta's what also needs to be done is to increase the bandwidth of sentrey drones so Ishtar's simply cant use them. Give the Navy Vexor the sentry role bonus - at least they dont rock T2 resists.
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 437	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:31:44 - [180] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Desudes wrote: link your ishtar fit Standard fit, Quote: [Universal Taggof] Internal Force Field Array I Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction EM Ward Field II Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Without the DLAs, or if you deploy w/ ABs you can fit LSE IIs and get 62k EHP unlinked. So what of that sentry tracking? It is a 400 m resolution weapons system, must be bad, right? Right. Without DLAs, you'll be staying within dps range. You lose that race against AB zealots. Without mwd, you'll be kept in brawling range of zealots, so you'll lose that race even faster. Plz bring an ishtar fleet with these tactics on down to provi, I like fragging ishtars. Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*

Alexis Nightwish 204	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:31:55 - [181] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Alexis Nightwish wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Alexis Nightwish wrote: To all of you who say sentries and heavies, being BS class weapons, should not be on these cruiser class hulls, let me tell you I've gone down that road and it leads to nowhere. CCP Rise wrote: This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries. We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well. I think the best course of action is to address the rediculous bandwidth cruisers have. Logical progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums: Frigate: 25mb Destroyer: 40mb Cruiser: 50mb Battlecruiser: 100mb Battleship: 125mb Current, and fundementally flawed progresssion of drone boat bandwidth maximums: Frigate: 25mb Destroyer: 35mb Cruiser: 125mb Battlecruiser: 100mb Battleship: 125mb But that still doesn't address the ridiculous amount of range the ishtar is able to achieve. Cruisers should NOT be able to shoot that far. I personally don't have issue with a cruiser being able to hit that far when it's DPS is <200. Until a medium sized organisation bring 100 of them and you now deal with 20k dps... And your team of 100 who isn't gimping themselves with 2 sentries per Ishtar is doing nearly double that. CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers
donkie punch Luv You Long Time 0	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:34:00 - [182] - Quote Please leave the garde optimal range alone, or less of a nerd. It not used in the current fleet meta (usually) and nerfing it to have almost no optimal range greatly decreases the ability to use them affectively. The boucer and curator I would agree need a. Nerd as the apply to much damage, tracking and extreme ranges allowing people to kit and fight without ever putting their ship at risk, but a nerf to optimal of gardes seems a bit excessive. Please reconsider
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:42:42 - [183] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: The sentries range cap out much shorter if not for this projection bonus. This is why it needs to be counted as projection. Normal drone boat range cap out much closer to ishtar because of that. If you don't see it as a projection bonus, you are delusional. People fit DLAs to their but a bonus to drone range does not count because :reasons:... It is as much a projection bonus as a targeting computer. Yes it is beneficial. I discounted it because I was not considering ships targeting range in the equation when comparing to drone boats. I'll look at some numbers and edit this post.
Kiandoshia Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance 2282	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:43:57 - [184] - Quote Xavier Azabu wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: ...making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones... ...massaging drone combat... Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! Optimal nerf on Gardes is a little harsh. Maybe like 15%? No one uses them on towers or in kiting Ishtar combat anyway. The Curator and Bouncer nerf is needed. Will this finally discourage people from using the Ishtar? In another 6 sentry drone and Ishtar nerfs, they will remove sentries from Ishtars and we will be there.
Immortal Chrono Pimpin Anime Masters Verge of Collapse 133	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:50:35 - [185] - Quote Taking optimal from gallente sentrys? Can your bad nerfs not break lore? Blasters and railguns work off optimal which is already not that huge compared to other sentrys range so how about just remove falloff from gardes instead.
Illindar Tyrannus Calamity Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic 17	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:50:43 - [186] - Quote If you going to fix the problem you should look at the ship hull and not the Sentries.
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 437	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:52:52 - [187] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: You cannot remove sentries from the ishtar. For the simple reason that the ishtar will lose its role as a long range ship. Look at the other HACs. Zealot = optimal bonus muninn = optimal bonus eagle = optimal bonus (x2) Ishtar = optimal bonus All these ships are meant for longer range engagements. If you take away sentries completely.. how does the ishtar project damage? Heavies? Lol. Travel time + missing = no one will use it and it will turn into another brawler, or some kind of weird shortrange doctrine which goes completely against the role of these HACs. Yes the ishtar is dominating and semi-OP in large scale fights. But removing its only way at projecting the damage will turn it into the drake. Overnerfed and lost its role. Something to consider. Nerf sentry drones down to medium turret ranges and damage to balance around the other HACs and keepit in the same class. Create a new sentry for BS. Seige Sentry drone or w/e. Give it 400+ sig resolution, more range and slightly more damage. This keeps BS doctrines relatively unchanged but keeps with BS tracking/application. The only issue i see is with carriers.. Though having 400+ sig resolution will mean smaller ships should be able to sig/speed tank them better than current sentry mechanics. For starters, what is the range of those other weapon systems vs their dmg outpout? Also you forgot the missle boat.. you know things that have time to target issues. Seems to me if the cerb can cope with this issue just fine then hvys or meds should also be fine for the ishtar. Further nerfs of senty drones affects other platforms besides the ishtar, and those other platforms were already balanced before hand. The problem is the ishtar, not sentries. Muninn at best is 420-450dps IIRC (not at my computer) and shoots around 27km+33km with shortrange ammo. With long range ammo its 50km+33km @ 280-300dps. Course thats with 2 TE. I dont remember the naked stats. That is locked in with explo or kinetic dmg for long range. If you use the proton ammo rounds you get even less dps to use thermal/em damage at range. Eagle is around 400-450dps last i checked with shortrange ammo and rails, and goes down from there. I havent tinkered with zealots much so im not familiar with em. I came into EVE during the shadoo era.. missed out on those doctrines. But from previous discussions on the topic its pretty similar to the other non ishtar HACs. The cerb doesnt fall into the same category. Its more related to the vaga/deimos/sac. Its the more mobile vessel (compared to the eagle) its just caldari lore favors missile range. The cerb also has no tracking compared to drones (i guess you missed the flight time + missing comment). So saying missiles hit fine with flight time is not the same as drones hitting consistently with flight time. The cerb is also locked into kinetic only damage, not good for fleets, which is why there are not cerb doctrines. The ishtar can switch damage types no problem by dropping a different set of sentries. These changes seem aimed at making the ishtars "ammo" have a bigger disparity between them, just like other ammo. Sacrifice/balance etc. Munin/Eagle's biggest downfall is the loki and tengu just do it better, and there are fitting issues on them iirc. Zealot faces fitting issues too but is still sort of worth using if you can't use legions/prots. If you buffed these 3 ships fittings and fixed t3s being HACs but better, you'd see a lot more of them running around. The way the ishtar gets used is actually closer to the cerb than anything. Problem with cerb fleets is firewall and heavy missiles kinda suck, so you're using RLML and dat reload time doe Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1817	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:54:42 - [188] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: The sentries range cap out much shorter if not for this projection bonus. This is why it needs to be counted as projection. Normal drone boat range cap out much closer to ishtar because of that. If you don't see it as a projection bonus, you are delusional. People fit DLAs to their but a bonus to drone range does not count because :reasons:... It is as much a projection bonus as a targeting computer. Yes it is beneficial. I discounted it because I was not considering ships targeting range in the equation when comparing to drone boats. I'll look at some numbers and edit this post. Yes Drone Control range benefits 3/4 of the sentries. Base is drone contol range is 60km and the Ishtar bonus takes it to 85km. I assume this was done due to other HACs having base targeting ranges in the 70km to 90km range. Because having your weapon max range cap go from 60km to 85 KM is not a bonus? Ishtar targettign range is 100km so there is no need for a module to boost it untill you go with DLAs. Bouncers, curators and wardens all still do damage past the 60km mark that would be the limit if the Ishtar didn't have a range bonus.
SecretService Secret Services 1	Posted - 2015.05.21 19:59:22 - [189] - Quote At this rate, by the time they figure that they need to fix Ishtar, we'll end up with no one using sentries at all. Quote: CCP Fozzie wrote: ...making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones... Shocked ...massaging drone combat... Cool Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! No, you don't. Fix Ishtar. Unfortunately you do just what looks right to you, screw the plebe...
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:05:20 - [190] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: The sentries range cap out much shorter if not for this projection bonus. This is why it needs to be counted as projection. Normal drone boat range cap out much closer to ishtar because of that. If you don't see it as a projection bonus, you are delusional. People fit DLAs to their but a bonus to drone range does not count because :reasons:... It is as much a projection bonus as a targeting computer. Yes it is beneficial. I discounted it because I was not considering ships targeting range in the equation when comparing to drone boats. I'll look at some numbers and edit this post. Yes Drone Control range benefits 3/4 of the sentries. Base is drone contol range is 60km and the Ishtar bonus takes it to 85km. I assume this was done due to other HACs having base targeting ranges in the 70km to 90km range. Because having your weapon max range cap go from 60km to 85 KM is not a bonus? Ishtar targettign range is 100km so there is no need for a module to boost it untill you go with DLAs. Bouncers, curators and wardens all still do damage past the 60km mark that would be the limit if the Ishtar didn't have a range bonus. So if a HML Cerberus (95km base targeting range) had a 60KM limit on missiles being able to engage that would be okay? The control range bonus is to bring the weapon system in line with with the ships targeting range. SO while it is a bonus it is only in order to equalize the weapon system. The only way I can see CCP getting around this would be to remove control range and use a ships targeting range instead. In which case no bonus would be needed.

Brashar Bheskagor Organized-Chaos Apocalypse Now. 1	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:07:20 - [191] - Quote the problem is not with sentry's and the ships that are using it like a ishtar (heavy assualt cruiser). But with the doctrines that encounter a ishtar. you can easyly kill sentrys by using a smart bombs battleship or bombs of a sb. Guys and girls pls this game is all about tactics or take a mobile depot in your ship with different resistance and other items so you can adjust to a fleet you encounter. you can also attack a ishtar fleet with close range high alpha fleets (Navytempests)with webbers and scram fitted ships. Its just in how you play your hand on the pvp field and take some times some risks. Provi block are also using those ishtars for example against ncdot but sometime we lose those battles against t3 cruisers with carrier logi. we dont cry about that but we change ships and kill their logi and t3 cruisers with a big naga/tornado fleet see youtube battle vki of last week. NCdot even are dropping carrier/supers fleet to save their fleets. every thing in eve with battles is about tactics and field and adjust your fleet to the actual situation. The best way to balance a doctrine ships is to alter the ehp of a ship without effecting the weaponsystems or alter the ship bonuses. this is more easier then rebalancing sentry's. because you can have optimal range module in the midslot of a ship to boost the optimal range of a sentry as like tracking of a sentry/drone.
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance 150	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:09:33 - [192] - Quote Seven Koskanaiken wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Because the geddon, rattle, and drone proteus are causing sooo many problems right now. Let's not even talk about these non-stop nestor fleets.... Battleship class is a dieing species. And only those that use sentry drones are in more or less adequate shape. Armageddon is more a support ship, yet it sports a solid punch - compare it to Scorpion. Rattlesnake is a really tough thing, shredding everything in close through middle to long range, and only ultra-long setups can beat it... cannot say the same for Nightmare. Nestor is good, but too damn expensive - twice as much as Machariel. And drone Proteus? Are you kidding?
Bevici Roden The Maythorn 0	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:10:42 - [193] - Quote I think that the nerfs to the weapon system that is the sentry is a bad idea. I believe the hull is the problem. I think that this change is bad because it impacts other hulls instead of the primary problem is the ishtar.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1817	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:12:00 - [194] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: The sentries range cap out much shorter if not for this projection bonus. This is why it needs to be counted as projection. Normal drone boat range cap out much closer to ishtar because of that. If you don't see it as a projection bonus, you are delusional. People fit DLAs to their but a bonus to drone range does not count because :reasons:... It is as much a projection bonus as a targeting computer. Yes it is beneficial. I discounted it because I was not considering ships targeting range in the equation when comparing to drone boats. I'll look at some numbers and edit this post. Yes Drone Control range benefits 3/4 of the sentries. Base is drone contol range is 60km and the Ishtar bonus takes it to 85km. I assume this was done due to other HACs having base targeting ranges in the 70km to 90km range. Because having your weapon max range cap go from 60km to 85 KM is not a bonus? Ishtar targettign range is 100km so there is no need for a module to boost it untill you go with DLAs. Bouncers, curators and wardens all still do damage past the 60km mark that would be the limit if the Ishtar didn't have a range bonus. So if a HML Cerberus (95km base targeting range) had a 60KM limit on missiles being able to engage that would be okay? The control range bonus is to bring the weapon system in line with with the ships targeting range. SO while it is a bonus it is only in order to equalize the weapon system. The only way I can see CCP getting around this would be to remove control range and use a ships targeting range instead. In which case no bonus would be needed. 2 out of 3 missile type on the cerberus won't shoot to it's maximum lock range. One of them can't shoot to the unbonused drone range. Oh and please don't forget to mention the cerb need 2 range bonus on those weapon to achieve those range numbers. I think the sentries needed 2 bonus to range (max velocity and flight time) just like sentries do (drone control range and optimal).
Nash MacAllister Anomalous Existence Low-Class 245	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:13:08 - [195] - Quote So once again you are nerfing everything not an Ishtar, to fix the Ishtar issues. Brilliant... *Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...*
Stinkkie WizzleTeats Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:14:52 - [196] - Quote Why nerf the garde really. 50% percent of the optimal range of bouncers and even less for the other ones. To boot your also nerfing tracking and dps even though the stated problem is bouncers, curators, a and bonused hulls (Dominix and ishtar). You already nerf end them once, please do not make that drone useless
Zappity Stay Frosty. A Band Apart. 2103	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:15:37 - [197] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Um... CCP Rise wrote: First, we wanted to establish whether the problem was more about the Ishtar or more about Sentry Drones. The data makes a pretty convincing case that it really is mostly the Ishtar. While several other ships (Dominix, Navy Vexor, Archon, etc.) are making use of sentries, none of them are anywhere near as sentry reliant as the Ishtar and none of them are coming close to the overall damage that Ishtars represent on TQ. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance 150	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:17:08 - [198] - Quote Brashar Bheskagor wrote: Provi block are also using those ishtars for example against ncdot but sometime we lose those battles against t3 cruisers with carrier logi. we dont cry about that but we change ships and kill... Let's see what you say when they start dropping slowcats. And they will.
Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 437	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:18:26 - [199] - Quote Skia Aumer wrote: Brashar Bheskagor wrote: Provi block are also using those ishtars for example against ncdot but sometime we lose those battles against t3 cruisers with carrier logi. we dont cry about that but we change ships and kill... Let's see what you say when they start dropping slowcats. And they will. Shhh, slowcats are fine.... so very balanced... kinda like supers are :3 Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1817	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:20:04 - [200] - Quote Desudes wrote: Skia Aumer wrote: Brashar Bheskagor wrote: Provi block are also using those ishtars for example against ncdot but sometime we lose those battles against t3 cruisers with carrier logi. we dont cry about that but we change ships and kill... Let's see what you say when they start dropping slowcats. And they will. Shhh, slowcats are fine.... so very balanced... kinda like supers are :3 How 'bout dem wrecking balls?

Hengle Teron Just Another Corp XIV 51578	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:45:55 - [201] - Quote Obidiah Kane wrote: I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills. :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. Because you train what's dominant.
Tamer Russian Thunder Squad The Afterlife. 14	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:51:55 - [202] - Quote Dear CCP. That fix do nothing. The only one thing you can do to nerf OP drone formats. Add signature radius and reduce HP of drones. 1-2 bombs to kill drones, will be great.
Maximos Jenks Ever Flow Northern Coalition. 0	Posted - 2015.05.21 20:56:54 - [203] - Quote Zappity wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Um... CCP Rise wrote: First, we wanted to establish whether the problem was more about the Ishtar or more about Sentry Drones. The data makes a pretty convincing case that it really is mostly the Ishtar. While several other ships (Dominix, Navy Vexor, Archon, etc.) are making use of sentries, none of them are anywhere near as sentry reliant as the Ishtar and none of them are coming close to the overall damage that Ishtars represent on TQ. This guys is right.. CCP rise the hero of my heart [GÇô]Ranzera Jesus, what the hell were Gardes doing? I've not seen any abuse there. Sign me up with the "why nerf an entire weapon platform for 2-4 hulls' sins?" crowd. This was posted on reddit, which is also particularly relevant
cMo McCloud Kronic Using Space Heros Gentlemen's.Parlor 0	Posted - 2015.05.21 21:02:39 - [204] - Quote I realize these changes are because of the how they are used in PVP but this really hurts using them for PVE. Seems like a band-aid to fix other issues. To *survive* is just not *enough. To live* is to *fight*.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.21 21:06:36 - [205] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: The sentries range cap out much shorter if not for this projection bonus. This is why it needs to be counted as projection. Normal drone boat range cap out much closer to ishtar because of that. If you don't see it as a projection bonus, you are delusional. People fit DLAs to their but a bonus to drone range does not count because :reasons:... It is as much a projection bonus as a targeting computer. Yes it is beneficial. I discounted it because I was not considering ships targeting range in the equation when comparing to drone boats. I'll look at some numbers and edit this post. Yes Drone Control range benefits 3/4 of the sentries. Base is drone contol range is 60km and the Ishtar bonus takes it to 85km. I assume this was done due to other HACs having base targeting ranges in the 70km to 90km range. Because having your weapon max range cap go from 60km to 85 KM is not a bonus? Ishtar targettign range is 100km so there is no need for a module to boost it untill you go with DLAs. Bouncers, curators and wardens all still do damage past the 60km mark that would be the limit if the Ishtar didn't have a range bonus. So if a HML Cerberus (95km base targeting range) had a 60KM limit on missiles being able to engage that would be okay? The control range bonus is to bring the weapon system in line with with the ships targeting range. SO while it is a bonus it is only in order to equalize the weapon system. The only way I can see CCP getting around this would be to remove control range and use a ships targeting range instead. In which case no bonus would be needed. 2 out of 3 missile type on the cerberus won't shoot to it's maximum lock range. One of them can't shoot to the unbonused drone range. Oh and please don't forget to mention the cerb need 2 range bonus on those weapon to achieve those range numbers. I think the sentries needed 2 bonus to range (max velocity and flight time) just like sentries do (drone control range and optimal). Right, you're proving my point for me. The base lock range of the ship exceeds the usable range of all but T1 missiles. Thus you can shoot any missile at any target you can lock, they won't all hit because they have limited range to apply damage. Drones will not shoot at any target you can lock. They will only engage a target you lock AND is in their control range. It is a unique feature to the weapon system that no other system has. If control range didn't matter, then in passive mode, lock range and the drones optimal/falloff would be equivalent to the other weapon systems. I'll stop after this one because it is clear we won't agree. You fit a Cerberus with HML it will shoot ALL T1 missiles to 141km, Faction to about 72Km, and T2 Fury to 106KM. Imagine you had another limiting factor on your launchers that wouldn't let you shoot them unless you also had a missile control range, and it started at 60km. Thus what you see as an extra bonus is only bringing the use of drones up to the same engagement window of other HACs.
Jatok Reknar The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance 11	Posted - 2015.05.21 21:14:10 - [206] - Quote Sad about this proposed nerf. If there was a problem with a specific hull being overpowered, adjust its bonuses rather than a blanket nerf on sentries altogether imho.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.21 21:17:41 - [207] - Quote Lady Aesir wrote: Ishtar A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD Yes they should. All other drones are not considered ranged weapons, and both in PvP and PvE having drones travel long distances proves this. There are two way I see to solve this: 1) Nerf sentries a bit and buff the BS+ hull bonuses to compensate 2) Create a Medium Sentry class and change cruiser bonuses to this size sentry.

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 12850	Posted - 2015.05.21 21:30:52 - [208] - Quote Hey folks, thanks for the feedback so far. For those of you who are worried that we won't touch any specific ships because we're making these changes, I'll point you again to the second paragraph of the OP. We are not ruling out any changes to specific ships as we go forward. We made changes specifically to the Ishtar in Scylla, and we plan on continuing to make changes bit by bit to continually improve the game's balance. We're making an adjustment already to the original proposal, adding some more falloff to the Gardes. New Garde range changes are: -25% optimal, +66.7% falloff. The shift from a moderate reliance on optimal to a moderate reliance on falloff is still part of the plan as it will help close the gap between range bonuses ships and range unbonused ships, but with this version the crossover point between ranges where the Gardes do less damage than before and the point where they do more damage than before will be earlier. Thanks as always, and have a great evening! Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Desudes Adversity. Northern Coalition. 437	Posted - 2015.05.21 21:40:36 - [209] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey folks, thanks for the feedback so far. For those of you who are worried that we won't touch any specific ships because we're making these changes, I'll point you again to the second paragraph of the OP. We are not ruling out any changes to specific ships as we go forward. We made changes specifically to the Ishtar in Scylla, and we plan on continuing to make changes bit by bit to continually improve the game's balance. We're making an adjustment already to the original proposal, adding some more falloff to the Gardes. New Garde range changes are: -25% optimal, +66.7% falloff. The shift from a moderate reliance on optimal to a moderate reliance on falloff is still part of the plan as it will help close the gap between range bonused ships and range unbonused ships, but with this version the crossover point between ranges where the Gardes do less damage than before and the point where they do more damage than before will be earlier. Thanks as always, and have a great evening! You realize gardes are already almost useless right now because of how bad you nerfed their range and this is just going to make it worse, right ? Excuse me, but what the fck are you desu?*
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1817	Posted - 2015.05.21 21:42:07 - [210] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey folks, thanks for the feedback so far. For those of you who are worried that we won't touch any specific ships because we're making these changes, I'll point you again to the second paragraph of the OP. We are not ruling out any changes to specific ships as we go forward. We made changes specifically to the Ishtar in Scylla, and we plan on continuing to make changes bit by bit to continually improve the game's balance. What other ship beside the Ishtar and the Dominixe are problematic with sentries to make the entire weapon system deserving of a nerf and not only those 2 hulls?

Dreekus High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance 16	Posted - 2015.05.21 21:42:09 - [211] - Quote I am not big fan of Falloff based weaponry, It mostly just confuse ppl about their paper dps vs practical application. That being said, I have same opinion as ppl that would prefer seeing Ishtar tweaking instead doing changes that will cause colleteral damage to hulls that are not so readly abused. (Like eos, dominix, Geddon). Sentries bonuses for BCs and larger hulls only.
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 831	Posted - 2015.05.21 21:47:35 - [212] - Quote Every sentry ship is severely outclassed by the Ishtar, to the point where pretty much nobody uses anything but (except for us). The last several times we've told you this you've given us the same stupid "thanks for the feedback but we're confident we're right". You're not. The drones are not the problem, it's the Ishtar.
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 19	Posted - 2015.05.21 21:49:59 - [213] - Quote I've said this many times after seeing the game become more and more "balanced", nice way of saying nerf BTW. When things are "unbalanced" they game is exciting and you have people trying to theory craft ways to counter the trends. Many times over I've seen exciting gameplays get it's arsed ripped out because CCP decided to nerf rather than be proactive and think of ways to allow us gamers to counter act. Part of what made/makes eve so exciting is the freedom but the rules and the constant tiers of "this needs balancing" annoys me rotten. This is what made Eve so formidable as a MMORPG. Please Fozzie, rather than nerf things and sugar coat it as balancing, think in the opposite direction to allow us to think strategically about being able to play out counter-attacks. The way it is at the moment you nerf one thing and another gameplay will emerge that you will nerf cough balance again.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1817	Posted - 2015.05.21 21:54:15 - [214] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: I've said this many times after seeing the game become more and more "balanced", nice way of saying nerf BTW. When things are "unbalanced" they game is exciting and you have people trying to theory craft ways to counter the trends. Many times over I've seen exciting gameplays get it's arsed ripped out because CCP decided to nerf rather than be proactive and think of ways to allow us gamers to counter act. Part of what made/makes eve so exciting is the freedom but the rules and the constant tiers of "this needs balancing" annoys me rotten. This is what made Eve so formidable as a MMORPG. Please Fozzie, rather than nerf things and sugar coat it as balancing, think in the opposite direction to allow us to think strategically about being able to play out counter-attacks. The way it is at the moment you nerf one thing and another gameplay will emerge that you will nerf cough balance again. It's been months and the statu quo is still that Ishtar are dominant. You'd think the playerbase would of found other counter by now beside faction battleships? Do you think people didn't look at the ship roster to find what was possible with the current setup? How long do we let something unbalanced to push people to try new things? How long before we consider the baalnce was actually FUBAR and need to be modified because the ideas just plainly don't work?
Rampage2010 Stoney Mining Co. Did he say Jump 0	Posted - 2015.05.21 21:54:33 - [215] - Quote Fozzie do you have any ideas for the game that don't involve nerfing everything one by one. surly you are smart enough to see that is all you are doing, perhaps you were in over your head working for CCP and you are reaching for ideas and nerf nerf nerf is all you could come up with? put more thought into stuff dude nerf hulls if you have to rather than screwing over weapon systems. talk to this guy a bit maybe, you know work with your team.. "First, we wanted to establish whether the problem was more about the Ishtar or more about Sentry Drones. The data makes a pretty convincing case that it really is mostly the Ishtar. While several other ships (Dominix, Navy Vexor, Archon, etc.) are making use of sentries, none of them are anywhere near as sentry reliant as the Ishtar and none of them are coming close to the overall damage that Ishtars represent on TQ." - CCP RISE 2015-02-27
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 19	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:04:27 - [216] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: I've said this many times after seeing the game become more and more "balanced", nice way of saying nerf BTW. When things are "unbalanced" they game is exciting and you have people trying to theory craft ways to counter the trends. Many times over I've seen exciting gameplays get it's arsed ripped out because CCP decided to nerf rather than be proactive and think of ways to allow us gamers to counter act. Part of what made/makes eve so exciting is the freedom but the rules and the constant tiers of "this needs balancing" annoys me rotten. This is what made Eve so formidable as a MMORPG. Please Fozzie, rather than nerf things and sugar coat it as balancing, think in the opposite direction to allow us to think strategically about being able to play out counter-attacks. The way it is at the moment you nerf one thing and another gameplay will emerge that you will nerf cough balance again. It's been months and the statu quo is still that Ishtar are dominant. You'd think the playerbase would of found other counter by now beside faction battleships? Do you think people didn't look at the ship roster to find what was possible with the current setup? How long do we let something unbalanced to push people to try new things? How long before we consider the baalnce was actually FUBAR and need to be modified because the ideas just plainly don't work? Give over you plank, I said for CCP to look proactively, that means looking and inventing new games play for us players to find!
Nano Sito 20	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:06:15 - [217] - Quote Well... if any of you guys had doubts about how untouchable the Ishtar is, this puts them to rest. It's Ishtar Online my friends... Winmatar all over again.
Airi Cho Dark-Rising 87	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:18:34 - [218] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey folks, thanks for the feedback so far. For those of you who are worried that we won't touch any specific ships because we're making these changes, I'll point you again to the second paragraph of the OP. We are not ruling out any changes to specific ships as we go forward. We made changes specifically to the Ishtar in Scylla, and we plan on continuing to make changes bit by bit to continually improve the game's balance. What other ship beside the Ishtar and the Dominixe are problematic with sentries to make the entire weapon system deserving of a nerf and not only those 2 hulls? carrier blob?
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1817	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:23:07 - [219] - Quote Airi Cho wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey folks, thanks for the feedback so far. For those of you who are worried that we won't touch any specific ships because we're making these changes, I'll point you again to the second paragraph of the OP. We are not ruling out any changes to specific ships as we go forward. We made changes specifically to the Ishtar in Scylla, and we plan on continuing to make changes bit by bit to continually improve the game's balance. What other ship beside the Ishtar and the Dominixe are problematic with sentries to make the entire weapon system deserving of a nerf and not only those 2 hulls? carrier blob? Good catch but on the other hand, I'm waiting to see what will happen to all caps after Fozziesov. They are supposed to be re-purposed.
Nano Sito 20	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:26:40 - [220] - Quote Airi Cho wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey folks, thanks for the feedback so far. For those of you who are worried that we won't touch any specific ships because we're making these changes, I'll point you again to the second paragraph of the OP. We are not ruling out any changes to specific ships as we go forward. We made changes specifically to the Ishtar in Scylla, and we plan on continuing to make changes bit by bit to continually improve the game's balance. What other ship beside the Ishtar and the Dominixe are problematic with sentries to make the entire weapon system deserving of a nerf and not only those 2 hulls? carrier blob? Caps will be re-balanced soon anyway. This nerf to sentries is just to postpone the rebalance of the Ishtar one more time (since they last effort fell short and they know it).

Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 13058	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:27:49 - [221] - Quote The part that surprises me is that you guys seem to think that the tracking or range slash application is the problem. Instead of, you know, the fact that Sentries allow a cruiser to fit batteship equivalent weaponry. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 19	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:33:37 - [222] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: The part that surprises me is that you guys seem to think that the tracking or range slash application is the problem. Instead of, you know, the fact that Sentries allow a cruiser to fit batteship equivalent weaponry. Costs about the same though doesn't t?
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 13058	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:35:02 - [223] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: The part that surprises me is that you guys seem to think that the tracking or range slash application is the problem. Instead of, you know, the fact that Sentries allow a cruiser to fit batteship equivalent weaponry. Costs about the same though doesn't t? What? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 19	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:39:36 - [224] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: The part that surprises me is that you guys seem to think that the tracking or range slash application is the problem. Instead of, you know, the fact that Sentries allow a cruiser to fit batteship equivalent weaponry. Costs about the same though doesn't t? What? Fitting a cruiser properly costs about the same if not more as fitting a BS, let alone skilling for it. Why shouldn't it do the same amount of damage as a BS?
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 13058	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:43:25 - [225] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: The part that surprises me is that you guys seem to think that the tracking or range slash application is the problem. Instead of, you know, the fact that Sentries allow a cruiser to fit batteship equivalent weaponry. Costs about the same though doesn't t? What? Fitting a cruiser properly costs about the same if not more as fitting a BS, let alone skilling for it. Why shouldn't it do the same amount of damage as a BS? Because it makes battleships useless in comparison? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 19	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:49:30 - [226] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: The part that surprises me is that you guys seem to think that the tracking or range slash application is the problem. Instead of, you know, the fact that Sentries allow a cruiser to fit batteship equivalent weaponry. Costs about the same though doesn't t? What? Fitting a cruiser properly costs about the same if not more as fitting a BS, let alone skilling for it. Why shouldn't it do the same amount of damage as a BS? Because it makes battleships useless in comparison? Not really, BS's are mainly used for what becuase of what?
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 13058	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:52:17 - [227] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: Not really, BS's are mainly used for what becuase of what? Is being obtuse your shtick, or am I just being trolled? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 19	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:57:29 - [228] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: Not really, BS's are mainly used for what becuase of what? Is being obtuse your shtick, or am I just being trolled? No, I am genuinely asking you a question as to why we use BS's and what the reason are for doing so.
Maximos Jenks Ever Flow Northern Coalition. 0	Posted - 2015.05.21 22:57:42 - [229] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey folks, thanks for the feedback so far. For those of you who are worried that we won't touch any specific ships because we're making these changes, I'll point you again to the second paragraph of the OP. We are not ruling out any changes to specific ships as we go forward. We made changes specifically to the Ishtar in Scylla, and we plan on continuing to make changes bit by bit to continually improve the game's balance. We're making an adjustment already to the original proposal, adding some more falloff to the Gardes. New Garde range changes are: -25% optimal, +66.7% falloff. The shift from a moderate reliance on optimal to a moderate reliance on falloff is still part of the plan as it will help close the gap between range bonused ships and range unbonused ships, but with this version the crossover point between ranges where the Gardes do less damage than before and the point where they do more damage than before will be earlier. Thanks as always, and have a great evening! Thanks for trying, but everyone isn't complaining about the falloff.. It's like saying we're taking away your house but giving you this nifty box to live in. You talking about balance, but nerfing the range to 50 percent of the next in line drone is a bit extreme, oh in the same token is bouncers going to do 50 percent the damage, but have 150 percent better tracking than the garde. Curator have 60 percent the damage and 160 percent the tracking. The warden just flat out sucks, and with this range bonus nerf(even with the increase falloff) yall are pushing the sentry drone choices from 3 kinda (see point about wardens suck, and gardes limited range as it is currently) to just two choices. Balance is about choice, not restriction which I believe your indirectly reinforcing. Also fix the ****** Ishtar plz. Double bonus to drones sucks.
Alexis Nightwish 206	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:03:54 - [230] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey folks, thanks for the feedback so far. For those of you who are worried that we won't touch any specific ships because we're making these changes, I'll point you again to the second paragraph of the OP. We are not ruling out any changes to specific ships as we go forward. We made changes specifically to the Ishtar in Scylla, and we plan on continuing to make changes bit by bit to continually improve the game's balance. And that "nerf" was a joke. The problem is not sentries. The problem is not even that cruisers get bonuses to drones above their size class. The problem is that they have a bandwidth of 125mb! This allows them to deploy five fully bonused sentries with no drawbacks! I refuse to believe that you are either stupid or blind to this so I have to ask, why? Why do you keep avoiding the issue? The real issue. Are drone cruisers special snowflakes? The Vexor, VNI, Ishtar, and due to its disgustingly OP bonuses, the Gila are all the most powerful cruisers in their classes (T1, Navy, T2, Pirate). Cap drone cruisers at 50mb, change the Gila's bonus from 500% to 300%, and be done with it! Jeebus! CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1817	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:10:59 - [231] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: The part that surprises me is that you guys seem to think that the tracking or range slash application is the problem. Instead of, you know, the fact that Sentries allow a cruiser to fit batteship equivalent weaponry. Costs about the same though doesn't t? The smaller sig + faster + better warp speed + better resist packages is good compared to the more raw buffer + more fittings one?

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 12854	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:11:08 - [232] - Quote The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Alexis Nightwish 206	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:14:20 - [233] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Probably because 90% of forums is saying "the hull is the problem" yet you nerf the weapon anyway. CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge EVE Online's "I win!" Button Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 13059	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:14:30 - [234] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. That's rather passive aggressive, isn't it? My statement merely suggested that you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The Ishtar is still too good, and you've made the Dominix, and a few other ships besides, worse than they needed to be. It doesn't address the root of the problem. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1817	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:15:23 - [235] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. The fun thing of devs account is they can ban me from both the forum and the game and never really need to answer simple question because they have god's given power to be right all the time. Still no mention of which drone boat is problematic with sentries beside the soon to be re-designed carrier, ishtars and dominixes...
Discomanco We pooped on your lawn Resonance. 129	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:18:02 - [236] - Quote Alexis Nightwish wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Probably because 90% of forums is saying "the hull is the problem" yet you nerf the weapon anyway. I'd say you nailed it
The Primary Target It's All Ogre Now. 2	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:20:30 - [237] - Quote Sure the hull is most of the problem now, but first let's think about this for a minute... First it was sentry carriers, then it was sentry domis, now it's sentry ishtars... Dunno bout you guys but I see a pattern here...
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1818	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:20:32 - [238] - Quote Discomanco wrote: Alexis Nightwish wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Probably because 90% of forums is saying "the hull is the problem" yet you nerf the weapon anyway. I'd say you nailed it Nailing things is damage locked to kinetic so it's kinda useless VS Ishtars...
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1818	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:21:38 - [239] - Quote The Primary Target wrote: Sure the hull is most of the problem now, but first let's think about this for a minute... First it was sentry carriers, then it was sentry domis, now it's sentry ishtars... Dunno bout you guys but I see a pattern here... Yeah, the pattern is one is a capital that is supposed to be re-designed anyway and the two others are sentry platform with a bonus that include projection AND application unlike any other weapon system in the game.
Sabriz Adoudel Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 5112	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:21:48 - [240] - Quote Appropriate nerfs. Signed - someone that loves flying the Ishtar, and expects that to continue. Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out. I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com

Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 19	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:26:42 - [241] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you ** off 90% of the forums. But why do you constantly look to balance things AKA nerf. That is the gods honest question 90% of the people you ** off ask. The problem is, like you get in manufacturing, if you try to make the bottleneck even a new one appears and you are forever, in the quest of trying to balance things, nerfing. It's basic human instinct to want to invent the next big thing when it's a trend people don't down grade what they thought long and hard about, to make things even, most people want tools to counter.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1172	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:29:32 - [242] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. yep, people can be very narrow minded indeed, there are multiple issues that need fixing from the hull too the drones, but when you get them right 90% of people see that you have... not that people are great at admitting it mind. Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2420	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:30:26 - [243] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. You sure know how to light a fire
Seven Koskanaiken Positive Failure Black Legion. 1510	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:33:31 - [244] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Well has something come to light that contradicts Rise's statement? Which particular ships outside of Ishtar and Domi are using sentries/drones to OP effect? Where's the data to back this all up? What do the CSM say on this (if anything?)
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1172	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:33:52 - [245] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you ** off 90% of the forums. But why do you constantly look to balance things AKA nerf. That is the gods honest question 90% of the people you ** off ask. The problem is, like you get in manufacturing, if you try to make the bottleneck even a new one appears and you are forever, in the quest of trying to balance things, nerfing. It's basic human instinct to want to invent the next big thing when it's a trend people don't down grade what they thought long and hard about, to make things even, most people want tools to counter. people have short memories, things get overbuffed . because people complain about nerfing instead of buffing things, but the fact is things get buffed and nerfed as and when they are needed most, kind of like A&E really, makes me awant too watch grey's anatomy Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 12856	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:49:32 - [246] - Quote Seven Koskanaiken wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Well has something come to light that contradicts Rise's statement? Which particular ships outside of Ishtar and Domi are using sentries/drones to OP effect? Where's the data to back this all up? What do the CSM say on this (if anything?) Nothing here contradicts Rise's statement. The biggest issue was definitely the Ishtar hull, and the hull is still a significant component of the issue. That's why we made a much larger adjustment to the Ishtar last release (cutting its sentry damage bonus in half) than these changes to the drones. While the results of that Ishtar change is still playing out, we're continuing to make more adjustments to the overall sentry ecosystem with these changes. We also won't rule out more changes to the hull (and to other non-hull aspects of this whole picture) in the near future, but we aren't ready for more of those in Carnyx quite yet. Sentries are an extremely strong weapon system, and their strength has really shown itself in the past years as we hit the critical mass required for players to improve their tactics for using them. At the moment they are a bit too good on essentially every ship that has a drone damage bonus and at least 125mbits bandwidth (with Ishtars the most obvious offender, but Domis, carriers, VNIs, Rattlesnakes and Geddons all affected), which is why we're making some moderate changes to the drones in Carnyx. I'll let individual CSM members share their opinions if they wish, but every member of the CSM that provided any comment on these changes pushed for larger nerfs. The version of these changes that I first showed the CSM was a bit milder, but they convinced me to give it a bit more teeth. Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

Izmaragd Dawnstar EVE University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:51:33 - [247] - Quote I'll add my 0.00002 cents on the subject. A lot of stuff was probably already said in this thread or elsewhere, but meh. Sentries are currently the most used meta for a reason (battleship-caliber damage, excellent tracking, small sig radius and so on, so forth). In turn, this meta places itself into the meta of drones which is pretty strong (some would even say too strong) as well: selectable damage type, no ammo consumption save for blapped drones and decent projection. Now, while thinking that only one thing needs to change is a bit too easy, one can orient itself in three different directions: A) Change the sentries B) Change the hulls using them C) Change the sentry requirements and/or role altogether. Option A leaves us with several issues: One of them are skills being pushed at players for years made less desirable. The second one, far more bothersome, is the fact that option A will not close the gap between Gallente drone boats and all other drone boats (Guristas are a special case). The Armaggedon, for instance, will take a heavy hit. Now, option B is a lot more tempting, but makes the dedicated drone boats more bland and less desirable. While I personally use Gallente Cruiser V for the Oneiros and not the Ishtar, not everyone does so So, option C. Everyone knows sentry drones are a weird beast, being a battleship-damage device that can go on cruisers. Maybe it's time we change that? Yes, it is a complicated thing (and is not a "silver bullet"), but let's give it a try: - Scrap all >50 mbit bands on sub-battleship classes (cruisers and BCs). So by default, you can fit only 2 sentries. - Make a new mod: Sentry Drone Control Unit. Goes into a highslot, costs in the ballpark of 50 CPU and 200 PG to fit. Each Sentry Drone Control Unit adds 25 mbit/s bandwidth (allowing you to have 1 more sentry out). You can't go for more than 5, because Drones skill prevents that. - What does this accomplish? Well, it eats up high slots and fitting attributes, allowing for less silly pure drone boat fits (hello neut brawler VNI and kiting Ishtar, among other things). You'll still be able to fit an Ishtar, but probably not with 100MN ABs without sacrificing other stuff. - Also, it would open new horizons for some ships. Myrms and Stratioses and simple Vexors would perhaps be able to field full flights of sentries. At the cost of other stuff of course - a Vexor with 3 SDCUs would only have 1 gun left. This would have to be looked closely upon, obviously, but the sacrifice of 3 high slots and a lot of PG and CPU should minimise those cases. Basically, those SDCUs are a bit like fitting a 10MN on a Tactical destroyer: it's doable, but you have to give something up. After that, other adjustments can be done (maybe Ishtar's capacitor, maybe drone bay sizes, maybe other stuff).
Carrie-Anne Moss Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 133	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:54:23 - [248] - Quote Can we just get rid of CRUISERS getting bonuses to BATTLESHIP weapons?
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 266	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:54:24 - [249] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Seven Koskanaiken wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Well has something come to light that contradicts Rise's statement? Which particular ships outside of Ishtar and Domi are using sentries/drones to OP effect? Where's the data to back this all up? What do the CSM say on this (if anything?) Nothing here contradicts Rise's statement. The biggest issue was definitely the Ishtar hull, and the hull is still a significant component of the issue. That's why we made a much larger adjustment to the Ishtar last release (cutting its sentry damage bonus in half) than these changes to the drones. While the results of that Ishtar change is still playing out, we're continuing to make more adjustments to the overall sentry ecosystem with these changes. We also won't rule out more changes to the hull (and to other non-hull aspects of this whole picture) in the near future, but we aren't ready for more of those in Carnyx quite yet. Sentries are an extremely strong weapon system, and their strength has really shown itself in the past years as we hit the critical mass required for players to improve their tactics for using them. At the moment they are a bit too good on essentially every ship that has a drone damage bonus and at least 125mbits bandwidth, which is why we're making some moderate changes to the drones in Carnyx. I'll let individual CSM members share their opinions if they wish, but every member of the CSM that provided any comment on these changes pushed for larger nerfs. The version of these changes that I first showed the CSM was a bit milder, but they convinced me to give it a bit more teeth. What about cutting out some of the ishtars dronebay so it cant have extra sets of almost every sentry? Fairly mild change and makes killing its drones a bit more feasible. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
Hilti Enaka State War Academy Caldari State 19	Posted - 2015.05.22 00:07:55 - [250] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Seven Koskanaiken wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Well has something come to light that contradicts Rise's statement? Which particular ships outside of Ishtar and Domi are using sentries/drones to OP effect? Where's the data to back this all up? What do the CSM say on this (if anything?) Nothing here contradicts Rise's statement. The biggest issue was definitely the Ishtar hull, and the hull is still a significant component of the issue. That's why we made a much larger adjustment to the Ishtar last release (cutting its sentry damage bonus in half) than these changes to the drones. While the results of that Ishtar change is still playing out, we're continuing to make more adjustments to the overall sentry ecosystem with these changes. We also won't rule out more changes to the hull (and to other non-hull aspects of this whole picture) in the near future, but we aren't ready for more of those in Carnyx quite yet. Sentries are an extremely strong weapon system, and their strength has really shown itself in the past years as we hit the critical mass required for players to improve their tactics for using them. At the moment they are a bit too good on essentially every ship that has a drone damage bonus and at least 125mbits bandwidth, which is why we're making some moderate changes to the drones in Carnyx. I'll let individual CSM members share their opinions if they wish, but every member of the CSM that provided any comment on these changes pushed for larger nerfs. The version of these changes that I first showed the CSM was a bit milder, but they convinced me to give it a bit more teeth. What about cutting out some of the ishtars dronebay so it cant have extra sets of almost every sentry? Fairly mild change and makes killing its drones a bit more feasible. Or keep everything the way it is and create an alternative game play by perhaps reducing the cycle time of sentries on certain hulls.

Ravcharas Infinite Point Nulli Secunda 403	Posted - 2015.05.22 00:17:28 - [251] - Quote Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Can we just get rid of CRUISERS getting bonuses to BATTLESHIP weapons? People keep bringing this up like they just figured out the da vinci code. "They're battleship weapons they're battleship tier weapons hey everyone they are battleship tier! Guys! Guys!" Drones don't work that way.
Carrie-Anne Moss Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 133	Posted - 2015.05.22 00:23:59 - [252] - Quote Ravcharas wrote: Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Can we just get rid of CRUISERS getting bonuses to BATTLESHIP weapons? People keep bringing this up like they just figured out the da vinci code. "They're battleship weapons they're battleship tier weapons hey everyone they are battleship tier! Guys! Guys!" Drones don't work that way. Maybe they should?? So then i should be able to use 5 heavies in my Ishkur?
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1818	Posted - 2015.05.22 00:24:52 - [253] - Quote Hilti Enaka wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Seven Koskanaiken wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Well has something come to light that contradicts Rise's statement? Which particular ships outside of Ishtar and Domi are using sentries/drones to OP effect? Where's the data to back this all up? What do the CSM say on this (if anything?) Nothing here contradicts Rise's statement. The biggest issue was definitely the Ishtar hull, and the hull is still a significant component of the issue. That's why we made a much larger adjustment to the Ishtar last release (cutting its sentry damage bonus in half) than these changes to the drones. While the results of that Ishtar change is still playing out, we're continuing to make more adjustments to the overall sentry ecosystem with these changes. We also won't rule out more changes to the hull (and to other non-hull aspects of this whole picture) in the near future, but we aren't ready for more of those in Carnyx quite yet. Sentries are an extremely strong weapon system, and their strength has really shown itself in the past years as we hit the critical mass required for players to improve their tactics for using them. At the moment they are a bit too good on essentially every ship that has a drone damage bonus and at least 125mbits bandwidth, which is why we're making some moderate changes to the drones in Carnyx. I'll let individual CSM members share their opinions if they wish, but every member of the CSM that provided any comment on these changes pushed for larger nerfs. The version of these changes that I first showed the CSM was a bit milder, but they convinced me to give it a bit more teeth. What about cutting out some of the ishtars dronebay so it cant have extra sets of almost every sentry? Fairly mild change and makes killing its drones a bit more feasible. Or keep everything the way it is and create an alternative game play by perhaps reducing the cycle time of sentries on certain hulls. Did you just propose to solve the sentry drone problem by adding another sentry platform?
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 832	Posted - 2015.05.22 00:36:23 - [254] - Quote Airi Cho wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey folks, thanks for the feedback so far. For those of you who are worried that we won't touch any specific ships because we're making these changes, I'll point you again to the second paragraph of the OP. We are not ruling out any changes to specific ships as we go forward. We made changes specifically to the Ishtar in Scylla, and we plan on continuing to make changes bit by bit to continually improve the game's balance. What other ship beside the Ishtar and the Dominixe are problematic with sentries to make the entire weapon system deserving of a nerf and not only those 2 hulls? carrier blob? That really isn't a sentry problem.
Solairen Matsuko Holding 250	Posted - 2015.05.22 00:37:13 - [255] - Quote CCP Fozzie, I just want to point out you have about 240 posts in 9 hrs, with almost all of them telling you the same thing. "Fix the hulls not the drones." If the problem really is both, why not fix the outliers like Ishtars first so you have a balance across hulls, before adjusting the drones. Otherwise the Ishtar will only continue to skew your data anyways. You need to get you data into a sing,e standard deviation before adjusting drones. Taking data including Ishtar as it is now is pulls data 2 and maybe 3 SDs out. That's bad math and bad data management. If CCP is insistent on adjusting both, listen to your player base and just switch the order. Fix Ishtar.. THEN Sentries. Personally, I'm a fan of making "medium sentries" and "large senties" to match the weapon size instead. This would give CCP much more control over balancing them without needing BS so hard because of a single cruiser. Might even make adjusting carriers easier too!
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 832	Posted - 2015.05.22 00:38:24 - [256] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. We don't think we know what needs to change. We know what needs to change. When the problem is with the Ishtar, and pretty much none of the other sentry platforms, then it's painfully obvious to everyone except apparently you that it's the Ishtar that needs to be nerfed, not the sentries.
StuRyan Space Mutts Dramatic Exit. 54	Posted - 2015.05.22 00:40:52 - [257] - Quote Nothing is new here. Those that invested time in specializing in drone boat weaponry are not so favorable towards the nerf, those that haven't specialized in drone weaponry are welcoming the change. My POV: 1. Ishtars have always been very useful in new eden because of being able to whip sentries out and tank a 10/10 earning a nice amount of isk. I have a feeling this is also behind the nerf. 2. I find it ridiculous that a hole class and role is defined as drone boat and because it ends up being one considered as overpowered it gets the hammer. 3. Skill level is never reflected on in any nerf that has happened since I started playing 8 years ago. 4. When will we see thinking move from "balancing" or nerfing to actual "counter game plays". It's been said a times, just because something is overpowered and unbalanced it doesn't mean it is bad for the game, What is bad is when everything is placed on a level playing field.
Ivanna Humpalat Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.05.22 01:34:20 - [258] - Quote StuRyan wrote: 2. I find it ridiculous that a hole class and role is defined as drone boat and because it ends up being one considered as overpowered it gets the hammer. 4. When will we see thinking move from "balancing" or nerfing to actual "counter game plays". It's been said a times, just because something is overpowered and unbalanced it doesn't mean it is bad for the game, What is bad is when everything is placed on a level playing field. I agree with this. It's absurd to nerf roles that people have spent considerable time and/or money training into just because people are too lazy to counter them. Is this going to continue happening to every ship / weapon system we train into? While we're at it, we could also say that every ship on the top ten list at zkillboard needs to be nerfed because they work. Zkillboard Top 10 What about these other ships who get either more or close to the same amount of kills? Are we going to nerf them all? Or wait, is it just ships that are successful in fleet doctrines that really get the hammer?
Rootufi Aldent Gentlemen Bastards 0	Posted - 2015.05.22 01:44:50 - [259] - Quote afkalt wrote: I think you're hurting the hulls which are not bonused for them disproportionately hard compared to the bonused ones. No-one complains about a sentry geddon. The issues sit firmly in the bonused hulls, who will feel this less because of their already huge advantage over their peer group. I know you like to balance the weapons and not blame hulls but in this case, it clearly IS the hulls. i..agree completly
Rootufi Aldent Gentlemen Bastards 0	Posted - 2015.05.22 01:51:15 - [260] - Quote Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Can we just get rid of CRUISERS getting bonuses to BATTLESHIP weapons? no, because tornado.

Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 13059	Posted - 2015.05.22 01:59:57 - [261] - Quote Rootufi Aldent wrote: Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Can we just get rid of CRUISERS getting bonuses to BATTLESHIP weapons? no, because tornado. Battlecruisers and cruisers are not the same thing. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 1454	Posted - 2015.05.22 02:14:28 - [262] - Quote Lady Aesir wrote: Ishtar A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD oh noes ... the stealth bombers .....
Valterra Craven 545	Posted - 2015.05.22 02:37:57 - [263] - Quote Kitty Bear wrote: Lady Aesir wrote: Ishtar A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD oh noes ... the stealth bombers ..... Yeah a whole close of ships designed to die if a flea landed on them... again not comparable.
Sort Dragon Resilience. DARKNESS. 130	Posted - 2015.05.22 02:54:08 - [264] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Seven Koskanaiken wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Well has something come to light that contradicts Rise's statement? Which particular ships outside of Ishtar and Domi are using sentries/drones to OP effect? Where's the data to back this all up? What do the CSM say on this (if anything?) Nothing here contradicts Rise's statement. The biggest issue was definitely the Ishtar hull, and the hull is still a significant component of the issue. That's why we made a much larger adjustment to the Ishtar last release (cutting its sentry damage bonus in half) than these changes to the drones. While the results of that Ishtar change is still playing out, we're continuing to make more adjustments to the overall sentry ecosystem with these changes. We also won't rule out more changes to the hull (and to other non-hull aspects of this whole picture) in the near future, but we aren't ready for more of those in Carnyx quite yet. Sentries are an extremely strong weapon system, and their strength has really shown itself in the past years as we hit the critical mass required for players to improve their tactics for using them. At the moment they are a bit too good on essentially every ship that has a drone damage bonus and at least 125mbits bandwidth (with Ishtars the most obvious offender, but Domis, carriers, VNIs, Rattlesnakes and Geddons all affected), which is why we're making some moderate changes to the drones in Carnyx. I'll let individual CSM members share their opinions if they wish, but every member of the CSM that provided any comment on these changes pushed for larger nerfs. The version of these changes that I first showed the CSM was a bit milder, but they convinced me to give it a bit more teeth. Like Fozzie has stated we were consulted about this and the nerf suggested was less than posted at the start of this thread and after discussions between us and ccp, fozzie upped the nerf a bit. Speaking for myself I am satisfied that ccp realises the issue with sentries and the boats that get direct bonus's to these and instead of following the old way of doing things and just nerfing these ships into nonexistance they are actually trying to apply a nerf but still make them usefull if you so chose to use them.
Thirdsin Intergalactic Fight Club Gentlemen's.Club 5	Posted - 2015.05.22 03:21:41 - [265] - Quote Can we just not, and say we did? +1 to the Hulls, not drones, camp.
novasigma Okaski Zervas Aeronautics The Bastion 2	Posted - 2015.05.22 03:36:52 - [266] - Quote I don't usually key in on things like this because of trolls but would it not instead of adjusting the range and damage output of existing drones to just take the bonuses to tracking on the ishtar down/away as well as the optimal range bonus? This would help smooth out the ishtar op-ness 07 nova
Garrett Howe Spectres 7	Posted - 2015.05.22 03:39:14 - [267] - Quote What can you do to nerf the Ishtar without killing sentries? The only feasible option I see is reducing their drone bandwidth to 50 and giving them huge bonuses to medium drones, but then they are essentially a cheaper Gila, so then do you change the Gila to something else? Maybe EWAR drone bonuses or something, but I think CCP is not looking to do that either.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 973	Posted - 2015.05.22 03:42:50 - [268] - Quote I agree that a multi-pronged approach is necessary. You have to adjust both the weapon system and the ships. As far as the weapons go, I hate that Carriers can use sentry drones. This needs to go away. Nerfing sentry drones across the board to make them slightly less desirable on Carriers does not really fix the issues. As far as ships go, I don't want to see the Ishtar completely gutted - I just want to see a healthy ecosystem in which other HAC's - and other ship classes - have a sensible place. The combination of selectable damage, excellent projection, excellent mobility, and relatively tough ships makes it hard for any other comparable class to compete with the Ishtar right now. CCP needs to find the sweet spot to make the Zealot, Eagle, and Muninn at least worth considering vis-a-vis the Ishtar. That will require slight buffs to those ships as well as slight nerfs to the Ishtar. I think the Dominix and the Armageddon are both decent ships, without being so overwhelming that every other BS has no role in Eve. The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
Miner Hottie Haywire. 123	Posted - 2015.05.22 04:18:48 - [269] - Quote Fozzie: I feel you have the wrong end of the problem. Sentries are truly only OP on Ishtars. I suggests you leave Sentries at 25mb bandwidth and adjust their stats to reflect a long range sniper platform, which should result in a nerf to DPS. Take heavy drones and cut their bandwidth to 20mb (geckos to 45mb) and then reduce the ishtar bandwidth to 100mbs. Give the ishtar a hefty bonus to heavy drone hp and navigation. So the sniper fit is viable but not overpowered (4 sentries only) and a brawling fit using heavies also possible without being pants on head dumb, but appropriately risky. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Valkin Mordirc 1016	Posted - 2015.05.22 04:57:14 - [270] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Look I get it, when you make a change you got 100 bajillion people calling you an idiot, that you can't do you job, if it's like anything else that gets the public eye, you probably even been sent death threats, and been harassed. I get how that can be frustrating, annoying, and probably makes you want to quit your job, being forced to just sit and take the abuse specially when it's something you care about, as I assume you do with EVE, and not defend yourself. I have sympathies for you, I really do. But passive aggressive comments to your customers is not a good way to be the face of a multi-national gaming corporation. You ask for Feedback you got feedback. Don't get mad when people don't agree with the change. It honestly seems like you tried to fix the Ishtar and it failed, and now instead of looking at the problem you gone for a whack a mole approach and just took the nerfhammer and intended to smash everything that involves the ishtar. I want the Ishtar fixed, I want a balanced and interesting game. But this is a cascading nerf. `#DeleteTheWeak`

Sabriz Adoudel Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 5113	Posted - 2015.05.22 05:07:25 - [271] - Quote You're making the right call. If you nerf Ishtars hard, then the Vexor Navy Issue or the Dominix or the Armageddon or the Rattlesnake will just replace it as the sentry platform of choice. That said, monitor closely how this change works in practice, and if the Ishtar remains better than the second and third best cruiser-size hulls combined, it's time for a little more nerfbat loving for that hull; maybe dropping the role bonus from 5% to 4% or even 3% for sentries. Also remember the nuclear option on sentries if needed - making heavies 20mb/s bandwidth, sentries 30mb/s, and then making the Ishtar and VNI both 100mb/s while battleship droneboats get 120 or 150mb/s as appropriate to the hull. If this patch PLUS a recalibration of the Ishtar hull don't solve the problem, bring out that nuclear option. Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out. I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
Basil Pupkin Why So Platypus 197	Posted - 2015.05.22 05:36:29 - [272] - Quote Any way PvE drone boats (which already fell subpar to pretty much everything else with previous nerf) can compensate for this nerfbatting? Guess not. Thanks for killing most of the drones SP on PvE characters, yet another lovely setback. Now go buff gewnies one more time and this time I unsub for real. Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy. If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Miner Hottie Haywire. 124	Posted - 2015.05.22 05:51:14 - [273] - Quote Basil Pupkin wrote: Any way PvE drone boats (which already fell subpar to pretty much everything else with previous nerf) can compensate for this nerfbatting? Guess not. Thanks for killing most of the drones SP on PvE characters, yet another lovely setback. Now go buff gewnies one more time and this time I unsub for real. Umm the goons preferred PVE boat is an Ishtar, good native resist profile for fighting Guristas and heavy drones/sentries don't care about being jammed. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 265	Posted - 2015.05.22 06:10:04 - [274] - Quote -25mb bandwidth on cruisers class. Compare Stratios vs VNI. Same bonus to damage. Few hundred alpha less on Stratios. "-What are you doing?" "-Docking."(...) -"It's not possible" -"No, it's necessary."
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 974	Posted - 2015.05.22 06:19:05 - [275] - Quote Basil Pupkin wrote: Any way PvE drone boats (which already fell subpar to pretty much everything else with previous nerf) can compensate for this nerfbatting? Guess not. Thanks for killing most of the drones SP on PvE characters, yet another lovely setback. Now go buff gewnies one more time and this time I unsub for real. To paraphrase Heartbreak Ridge, "this is the AFK Ishtar, the preferred ratting ship of your enemies. It makes a distinctive noise when it's fired at a Gurista." In other words, take your nonsensical grrr Goons nonsense elsewhere. It has no place in this thread. The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
Gladiator XM Void Associates 11	Posted - 2015.05.22 06:28:37 - [276] - Quote Obidiah Kane wrote: I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills. :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. Welcome to FozziEvE
Skydott Burnin plasma ball 27	Posted - 2015.05.22 07:28:56 - [277] - Quote You better REPAIR! drone assist in lkow sec cause drone assisted to rapier or other ship not engage fighting in pvp.
Calico Jack Rose Original Sinners The Bastion 2	Posted - 2015.05.22 07:29:55 - [278] - Quote Obidiah Kane wrote: TrouserDeagle wrote: Obidiah Kane wrote: I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills. :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. maybe you should train what you like, rather than being utterly awful Come again?! What kind of person even writes that? Why write it? What does it even mean? Uh maybe a new bro! Quit being so elite you bitter vet piece of trash! It is a legit question and one that is seen on the forums often. The nerf bat is ridiculous around here. I mean why not make every ship equal in every situation so that people don't have to think about what they are going out to fight. There is and always will be a specific set of ships for different situations. No matter what happens the next ship will pop up and be op because that's what happens when you have a null power block they put boots on the ground so to speak and thus people will always complain because they lost a ship in a sandbox game.
Vlade Randal Kenshin. DARKNESS. 10	Posted - 2015.05.22 07:33:20 - [279] - Quote afkalt wrote: I think you're hurting the hulls which are not bonused for them disproportionately hard compared to the bonused ones. No-one complains about a sentry geddon. The issues sit firmly in the bonused hulls, who will feel this less because of their already huge advantage over their peer group. I know you like to balance the weapons and not blame hulls but in this case, it clearly IS the hulls. I think its reasonable to give sentries an overall nerf... however I agree that the Ishtar hull bonuses need to be adjusted as well. Currently the Ishtar has the following buffs: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage. Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5000m bonus to Drone operation range 5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty In addition to the proposed changes to sentry drones, I suggest that the Ishtar needs to have the following hull bonus adjusted: "5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed" I think the tracking speed bonus to sentries needs to be removed, so that the bonus is: "5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range"
Rax Perio Antwerpse Kerels RAZOR Alliance 0	Posted - 2015.05.22 07:59:31 - [280] - Quote Sir Constantin wrote: Gardes optimal and tracking nerf is too strong for my PVE ishtar. I guess it's time to look for alternatives. your pve ishtar should be using heavies after the sentry nerf. just sayin

Anthar Thebess 1040	Posted - 2015.05.22 08:35:32 - [281] - Quote Love this change! Sentry deserve this! Currently all module meta is moving into direction : T1 < T2 < Faction Can we get some nice buff to faction drones or new faction drone types : - 75% tracking + 50% damage + 15% to optimal range Cost PU: 10mil + 5.000 LP Sometimes you just need to shoot something big, not moving , and not piloted by any one. So we will have drone : - worthless in PVP - bad in PVE - good at shooting different structures. - expensive and good isk sink Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
Basil Pupkin Why So Platypus 197	Posted - 2015.05.22 08:39:24 - [282] - Quote Miner Hottie wrote: Umm the goons preferred PVE boat is an Ishtar, good native resist profile for fighting Guristas and heavy drones/sentries don't care about being jammed. That's what they say and you repeat after them like a parrot. They never speak truth, so don't. What they rat in are carriers and rattlesnakes, the lies about Ishtars is needed to try and convince people that there are no slow and blingy ships ratting there, which has been proven wrong a buttload of times. Doesn't stop people who are gullible enough to listen to a gewn from believing in the Ishtar myth and other bull. Aaaaaaaand guess what? Wardens aint nerfed. There are goonie ears sticking out of this change, how unexpected, yet another nerf-everyone-but-gewns change. Ok, just so this post doesn't get moderated, I'll be mild: curse you all. Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy. If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Max Kolonko WATAHA. Unseen Wolves 518	Posted - 2015.05.22 09:08:26 - [283] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Seven Koskanaiken wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Well has something come to light that contradicts Rise's statement? Which particular ships outside of Ishtar and Domi are using sentries/drones to OP effect? Where's the data to back this all up? What do the CSM say on this (if anything?) Nothing here contradicts Rise's statement. The biggest issue was definitely the Ishtar hull, and the hull is still a significant component of the issue. That's why we made a much larger adjustment to the Ishtar last release (cutting its sentry damage bonus in half) than these changes to the drones. While the results of that Ishtar change is still playing out, we're continuing to make more adjustments to the overall sentry ecosystem with these changes. We also won't rule out more changes to the hull (and to other non-hull aspects of this whole picture) in the near future, but we aren't ready for more of those in Carnyx quite yet. Sentries are an extremely strong weapon system, and their strength has really shown itself in the past years as we hit the critical mass required for players to improve their tactics for using them. At the moment they are a bit too good on essentially every ship that has a drone damage bonus and at least 125mbits bandwidth (with Ishtars the most obvious offender, but Domis, carriers, VNIs, Rattlesnakes and Geddons all affected), which is why we're making some moderate changes to the drones in Carnyx. I'll let individual CSM members share their opinions if they wish, but every member of the CSM that provided any comment on these changes pushed for larger nerfs. The version of these changes that I first showed the CSM was a bit milder, but they convinced me to give it a bit more teeth. The problem is not really ishtar bonuses. Its a fast kiting ship being able to field that powerfull weapon. Once you limit sentires and heavies to bs and capital hulls most of the priblem is solved and we than have a healthy discussipn about whetever or not sentries are op or not. Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1270	Posted - 2015.05.22 09:09:23 - [284] - Quote Sort Dragon wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Seven Koskanaiken wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Well has something come to light that contradicts Rise's statement? Which particular ships outside of Ishtar and Domi are using sentries/drones to OP effect? Where's the data to back this all up? What do the CSM say on this (if anything?) Nothing here contradicts Rise's statement. The biggest issue was definitely the Ishtar hull, and the hull is still a significant component of the issue. That's why we made a much larger adjustment to the Ishtar last release (cutting its sentry damage bonus in half) than these changes to the drones. While the results of that Ishtar change is still playing out, we're continuing to make more adjustments to the overall sentry ecosystem with these changes. We also won't rule out more changes to the hull (and to other non-hull aspects of this whole picture) in the near future, but we aren't ready for more of those in Carnyx quite yet. Sentries are an extremely strong weapon system, and their strength has really shown itself in the past years as we hit the critical mass required for players to improve their tactics for using them. At the moment they are a bit too good on essentially every ship that has a drone damage bonus and at least 125mbits bandwidth (with Ishtars the most obvious offender, but Domis, carriers, VNIs, Rattlesnakes and Geddons all affected), which is why we're making some moderate changes to the drones in Carnyx. I'll let individual CSM members share their opinions if they wish, but every member of the CSM that provided any comment on these changes pushed for larger nerfs. The version of these changes that I first showed the CSM was a bit milder, but they convinced me to give it a bit more teeth. Like Fozzie has stated we were consulted about this and the nerf suggested was less than posted at the start of this thread and after discussions between us and ccp, fozzie upped the nerf a bit. Speaking for myself I am satisfied that ccp realises the issue with sentries and the boats that get direct bonus's to these and instead of following the old way of doing things and just nerfing these ships into nonexistance they are actually trying to apply a nerf but still make them usefull if you so chose to use them. The most obvious problem with this being that in any world where the domi and ishtar are balanced against their peers, all other sentry users are absolutely dead in the water. Fleet ships need to be able to project damage. So long as these ships have huge boosts to tracking and range, they'll never not be the choice for said fleets because it allows you to either a) outrange the competition or b) out tank the competition at the same ranges. As I said before, do you honestly think that if ishtars and domis were deleted tomorrow, the meta would move to geddons? To VNI? Not a snowballs chance in hell, is my guess. Some people might use fleets of geddons, but it wouldn't dominate and crush the meta like the current drone ships are.
Hexatron Ormand Aperture Deep Space Eternal Pretorian Alliance 90	Posted - 2015.05.22 09:17:51 - [285] - Quote And all the time the site and missions pilots get nerfed and nerfed again, as they are unimportant. As everything revolves around the PvP balance. Sentry boats, especially the Dominix are very widely used ships for those purposes. If i see that right you will lose 3% dmg per sentry... times 5 (as they use 5 sentries).. so thats over 15% on DMG loss? So pure sentry boat mission runners gets the shaft again, just cause they are overused in PvP? Guess financing the PvP runs gets also more and more hard work, taking longer and longer. For me personally, this will mean cutting back in PvP runs, as i have less ISKs to spend and burn on them. At least for me this is, how i was earning my cash for the "fun times".. running sites in a sentry boat.
xttz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 617	Posted - 2015.05.22 09:25:55 - [286] - Quote Hexatron Ormand wrote: Sentry boats, especially the Dominix are very widely used ships for those purposes. If i see that right you will lose 3% dmg per sentry... times 5 (as they use 5 sentries).. so thats over 15% on DMG loss? So pure sentry boat mission runners gets the shaft again, just cause they are overused in PvP? Where the hell did you learn math? If a sentry drone does 100dps and you reduce that by 3%, that goes down to 97dps. If you're using 5 drones, you go from 500dps to 485dps. That's still a 3% drop. Do you think that if they cut drone damage by 50% you'd end up doing 250% less damage for using 5 sentries?
xttz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 617	Posted - 2015.05.22 09:29:54 - [287] - Quote Max Kolonko wrote: The problem is not really ishtar bonuses. Its a fast kiting ship being able to field that powerfull weapon. Once you limit sentires and heavies to bs and capital hulls most of the priblem is solved and we than have a healthy discussipn about whetever or not sentries are op or not. This seems pretty plausible to me. It's a battleship-class weapon on a hull with decent durability and cruiser mobility. What if we had small / medium / large sentry drones, with the Ishtar / VNI getting class-appropriate bonuses / restrictions for these?
Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 1454	Posted - 2015.05.22 09:30:34 - [288] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: Kitty Bear wrote: Lady Aesir wrote: Ishtar A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD oh noes ... the stealth bombers ..... Yeah a whole class of ships designed to die if a flea landed on them... again not comparable. yes it is .. the point raised was cruisers should not have access to battleship sized weapons but without a supporting thread demanding the removal of battleship sized weapons from frigates the point is redundant
Basil Pupkin Why So Platypus 197	Posted - 2015.05.22 09:36:26 - [289] - Quote Hexatron Ormand wrote: And all the time the site and missions pilots get nerfed and nerfed again, as they are unimportant. As everything revolves around the PvP balance. Sentry boats, especially the Dominix are very widely used ships for those purposes. If i see that right you will lose 3% dmg per sentry... times 5 (as they use 5 sentries).. so thats over 15% on DMG loss? So pure sentry boat mission runners gets the shaft again, just cause they are overused in PvP? Guess financing the PvP runs gets also more and more hard work, taking longer and longer. For me personally, this will mean cutting back in PvP runs, as i have less ISKs to spend and burn on them. At least for me this is, how i was earning my cash for the "fun times".. running sites in a sentry boat. 3.3% damage loss is 3.3% dps loss, it does not depend on the number of sentries. That said, I'm A LOT more concerned with tracking loss. After the last nerf, hitting certain frigs orbiting a close-range ship sitting on the anom already became impossible for a support domi from ANY range - 50, 80, 100km regardless, a problem which wasn't there before. Now I guess the npc HACs are going to become invulnerable to a support domi in pve, unless they burn in his face, which is still a nerf due to even further damage reduction. Maybe we should stop gimping the already-****-dps battleship when balancing a cruiser? Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy. If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2854	Posted - 2015.05.22 09:48:12 - [290] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: -25mb bandwidth on cruisers class. Compare Stratios vs VNI. Same bonus to damage. Few hundred alpha less on Stratios. Stratios though gets a covert ops cloaking device, gets 5 high slots and has 4 turret hard points as well as a tanking bonus. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors

Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 1454	Posted - 2015.05.22 09:52:24 - [291] - Quote Maximum Bandwidth by base hull and core design role Is a Drone Boat Frigate/Destroyer - 25 Cruiser/BC - 50 Battleship - 125 Not a Drone Boat Frigate/Destroyer - 10 Cruiser/BC - 25 Battleship - 50 Drone boats then can be diversified by any applied bonus HP, Tracking, Damage, MWD Speed, Optimal/Fall-off etc if you gave Give the Dominix a HP, Tracking & MWD bonus, and the Navy version a optimal/fall-off bonus & Damage bonus one would be better with heavies, the other with sentries. the whole sentry-Ishtar meta becomes moot as it would no longer be possible
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2854	Posted - 2015.05.22 09:58:29 - [292] - Quote Kitty Bear wrote: Maximum Bandwidth by base hull and core design role Is a Drone Boat Frigate/Destroyer - 25 Cruiser/BC - 50 Battleship - 125 Not a Drone Boat Frigate/Destroyer - 10 Cruiser/BC - 25 Battleship - 50 I could get behind something like this, but it would require another complete rework on drones themselves. In terms of medium drones as a medium weapon system, they are lacking. Light drones are almost there and heavy drones are underpowered as a large weapon system but not as bad off as medium drones. Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
Max Kolonko WATAHA. Unseen Wolves 519	Posted - 2015.05.22 10:19:57 - [293] - Quote Kitty Bear wrote: Lady Aesir wrote: Ishtar A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD oh noes ... the stealth bombers ..... Bad comparison. Just like no one us arguing against using large weapons on tier 3 bc's. Both stealth bombers and bcs are weak in tank. Are bound location wise to their weapons. Have no racial lock (there is almost equally powerful variant for each race). Ishtar on the other hand is: - free to kite while their drones that deal damage are far away from him - one race only - tanky for a hac with both shield and armor working for him. Compared to otjer hacs is the only one that can fiekd bs sized weapons (5 h/s drones with two spare sets) From where im standing ishtar is a special snowflake. And i would also argue on removal of sentry/heavy capabilities from all ships smaller than bs. Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Miner Hottie Haywire. 125	Posted - 2015.05.22 11:25:53 - [294] - Quote Basil Pupkin wrote: Miner Hottie wrote: Umm the goons preferred PVE boat is an Ishtar, good native resist profile for fighting Guristas and heavy drones/sentries don't care about being jammed. That's what they say and you repeat after them like a parrot. They never speak truth, so don't. What they rat in are carriers and rattlesnakes, the lies about Ishtars is needed to try and convince people that there are no slow and blingy ships ratting there, which has been proven wrong a buttload of times. Doesn't stop people who are gullible enough to listen to a gewn from believing in the Ishtar myth and other bull. Aaaaaaaand guess what? Wardens aint nerfed. There are goonie ears sticking out of this change, how unexpected, yet another nerf-everyone-but-gewns change. Ok, just so this post doesn't get moderated, I'll be mild: curse you all. Ok. Firstly: look at my corp history, I left the Swarm last week. Goon PVE Ishtars run heavy drones, Wasps to be specific, as they eat frigate rats for breakfast, which Wardens can't do, unless they are 70km away from the rat who has 0 transversal. There are carriers and vindis and Rattlesnakes ratting in Deklein, but they are idiots. You get nearly as good a performance from a T2 Wasp equipped ishtar as a carrier, for far less risk. Finally, you need to drop the mental conditioning which says goons always lie. They only usually lie and you won't find much lying from them in these threads. Freaking need chribba to come in and mine all this tinfoil. Finally, seeing the Ishtar nerfed to the pack with the other HAC's would make me very happy. Drone doctrines aren't that great and encourage a pretty limited skill amongst all the players. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 1455	Posted - 2015.05.22 12:01:49 - [295] - Quote Max Kolonko wrote: Kitty Bear wrote: Lady Aesir wrote: Ishtar A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD oh noes ... the stealth bombers ..... Bad comparison. Just like no one us arguing against using large weapons on tier 3 bc's. Both stealth bombers and bcs are weak in tank. Are bound location wise to their weapons. Have no racial lock (there is almost equally powerful variant for each race). Ishtar on the other hand is: - free to kite while their drones that deal damage are far away from him - one race only - tanky for a hac with both shield and armor working for him. Compared to otjer hacs is the only one that can fiekd bs sized weapons (5 h/s drones with two spare sets) From where im standing ishtar is a special snowflake. And i would also argue on removal of sentry/heavy capabilities from all ships smaller than bs. nope. your argument is literally cruisers shouldn't use BS sized weapons because they are cruisers taking that into account tank is irrelevant faction is irrelevant your providing no substance or anecdotal references to support your statement All I'm doing is pointing out the precedent CCP has set for BS sized weapons on non-BS sized ships i'll give a you a free anecdotal reference r.i.p Myrmidon
Sticky wizzleteats Spartan Industries 0	Posted - 2015.05.22 12:42:04 - [296] - Quote The range and tracking bouncers and curators are a bit to good in the current pvp meta, gardes are not used that much (not sure why they are taking such a high hit to optimal), but everyone knows that the problem lies in the sentries in bonuses hulls. That is where they are op. Wardens sucks, and after this patch so will the gardes. The bouncers and curators will still dominate the meta for the bonused hulls, wardens will suck still and now gardes will not be used because the the harsh nerf. Thank you for pushing my choices to 2 drones in the name of "balance"
Brown Pathfinder Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2015.05.22 13:02:15 - [297] - Quote Why do you want to nerf my poor Prophecy Fozzie?
Amarisen Gream Divine Demise 79	Posted - 2015.05.22 13:18:33 - [298] - Quote I would like to echo the 2nd post... What about introducing new sized sentries... Small - made to work with frigates and destroyers. Medium - made to work with cruiser and BC ships. Large - current ones but designed to be deployed by BS sized or bigger ships only This would give players two choices in drones. Mobile drones or Sentry drones in all sizes... Could make for some really enjoyable meta/doctrines of ships as well as game play. edit: What if this was also done on all drone types... Sentry Salvage drone. Sentry Mining drone Sentry Web drone etc and yeah, it would add a lot of new items to the game, but I feel it would add some really fun options for players as well. xoxo Amarisen Gream
Lavayar Russian SOBR Dream Fleet 219	Posted - 2015.05.22 13:19:49 - [299] - Quote Keep going this way
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 1337	Posted - 2015.05.22 13:23:40 - [300] - Quote Oh good grief.. This again. To do list, nerf the issue with the ship, adjust role, provide buff for other ships. 1) reduce the bandwidth of heavy drones to 20 (from 25) 2) reduce the bandwidth of the navy vexor and the Ishtar to 100 (from 125) 3) reduce the dronebay of the ishtar down to 225 or 250 (backup drones they can swap out via depot). What you do is move the navy vexor and Ishtar away from sentries by reducing their dps by 20%, by removing the ability to drop 5 sentries (now 4), but they keep their total dps when using heavy drones (they can now launch 5). The proteus, vexor, prophecy, stratios, myrmidon all gain bonuses to their max drone layout because of the heavy drone bandwidth change. Yaay!!!!

MechaJeb Kerman Karma Core 9	Posted - 2015.05.22 13:33:38 - [301] - Quote Amarisen Gream wrote: What if this was also done on all drone types... Sentry Salvage drone. Sentry Mining drone Sentry Web drone etc Oh yes, Sentry ECM would be glorious. You get a permajam! And you get a permajam! EVERYBODY GETS A PERMAJAM!
Sven Viko VIkolander Friends and Feminists 349	Posted - 2015.05.22 13:34:45 - [302] - Quote This is another good change IMO. Now all we need is another 10-20 small nerfs across the game and we should see a lot of the power creep of the last year or so removed and the game much improved. Let's see, up next, nerf the worm, nerf the garmur/orthrus, nerf links, etc.
Leoric Firesword Rolling Static Gone Critical 128	Posted - 2015.05.22 13:53:07 - [303] - Quote Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Can we just get rid of CRUISERS getting bonuses to BATTLESHIP weapons? this Fozzie, this is your fix.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1172	Posted - 2015.05.22 14:11:08 - [304] - Quote perhaps the CSM could discuss reducing the amount of slots droneboats have beyond the -1 some of them have (guristas miraculously avoided this somehow) perhaps also encourage nerfing guristas too, the dps and amount of slots and tank is massively OP. Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 464	Posted - 2015.05.22 14:11:38 - [305] - Quote I've gotta say I agree with a lot of the comments here. You keep nerfing sentries, but they aren't the problem, it's the hulls with bonus that make them OP. It would be like nerfing Stasis Web's because of Vindi's. You're making it so the ONLY way Sentries are viable, is on these platforms that are already, at least debatably, OP. Ishtars are the problem. It's not Sentries. It's the fact that not only can a cruiser platform use a full flight of BS grade weapons, but it can do so while remaining kity and hard to catch. What the solution is I do not know, but I do know that nerfing Sentries only hurts all the other boats that don't have these bonuses.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.05.22 14:19:53 - [306] - Quote The slowest HAC is kitey and hard to catch??
Capt Malcolm Reynoldz the 57th Overlanders Brigade 0	Posted - 2015.05.22 14:25:05 - [307] - Quote First things first - thank you Fozzie and team for continuing to work so hard to make EVE better for everyone. I truly believe your efforts are made with the best intentions and that your team seeks to only improve and not hurt the player experience. Now - having said that, my thought on this subject is that drones NEED to be able to do better damage than other weapon systems simply because drones are vulnerable the minute they are launched and can be independently targeted and removed from the battlefield. Higher damage output for a shorter / limited engagement window. Risk vs Reward - just as it was intended to be in New Eden. Most drone boat captains do put a secondary weapon system (with no hull bonus to that weapon in most cases) on their ship to help mitigate drone loss during battle, but those guns/launchers are supplemental damage. In most cases once you have killed my drones off the field you have cut my damage profile by over half and in some cases - all together. As drone boat captains we make the conscious decision to accept that we will lose our drones and will incur the cost needed to replace them. In exchange for nerfing our primary DPS would you be willing to accept changes that allowed us to shoot your primary DPS off your ship? (Overheat damage that you have to repair isn't a fair argument until you give me the ability to overheat my Drones....so don't go there.) I doubt many would vote "yes" to that, so I have a hard time accepting changes that weaken our ability to fight. However, as Fozzie stated these are not intended to be the final changes to drones. I hope that if it is determined that these changes are detrimental to our ability to fight that corrections will be made. The key word in all of the changes being made is "BALANCE". T3 Cruisers and T3 Destroyers all got some work done so I'll accept the changes and do my best to adjust like everyone else with the hopes that it is truly a "balancing" of the weapon systems and not the crowning of a new King. Not that drones are "king" by any stretch of the imagination. Just wanted to put my two cents worth out there. - Mal
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1820	Posted - 2015.05.22 14:27:47 - [308] - Quote Capt Malcolm Reynoldz wrote: First things first - thank you Fozzie and team for continuing to work so hard to make EVE better for everyone. I truly believe your efforts are made with the best intentions and that your team seeks to only improve and not hurt the player experience. Now - having said that, my thought on this subject is that drones NEED to be able to do better damage than other weapon systems simply because drones are vulnerable the minute they are launched and can be independently targeted and removed from the battlefield. Higher damage output for a shorter / limited engagement window. Risk vs Reward - just as it was intended to be in New Eden. Most drone boat captains do put a secondary weapon system (with no hull bonus to that weapon in most cases) on their ship to help mitigate drone loss during battle, but those guns/launchers are supplemental damage. In most cases once you have killed my drones off the field you have cut my damage profile by over half and in some cases - all together. As drone boat captains we make the conscious decision to accept that we will lose our drones and will incur the cost needed to replace them. In exchange for nerfing our primary DPS would you be willing to accept changes that allowed us to shoot your primary DPS off your ship? (Overheat damage that you have to repair isn't a fair argument until you give me the ability to overheat my Drones....so don't go there.) I doubt many would vote "yes" to that, so I have a hard time accepting changes that weaken our ability to fight. However, as Fozzie stated these are not intended to be the final changes to drones. I hope that if it is determined that these changes are detrimental to our ability to fight that corrections will be made. The key word in all of the changes being made is "BALANCE". T3 Cruisers and T3 Destroyers all got some work done so I'll accept the changes and do my best to adjust like everyone else with the hopes that it is truly a "balancing" of the weapon systems and not the crowning of a new King. Not that drones are "king" by any stretch of the imagination. Just wanted to put my two cents worth out there. - Mal TLDR : Don't nerf me bro!!
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1089	Posted - 2015.05.22 14:35:10 - [309] - Quote my eft says currently with 3 ddas, an omni mid and an omni low: gardes 585 dps, 47+27 km, 0.049 rad/sec curators 551 dps, 82+18 km, 0.038 rad/sec if these numbers are correct, I really don't get why gardes would be getting significant nerfing relative to other sentries. they look fairly useless to me. I would've expected a much larger gap in the damage between sentry types. I'm not a nullbabby and I don't really do F1 blobbing, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong or have messed up EFT or something. I'm also still hoping ishtars can become usable in proper brawly fun setups, rather than just getting nerfed into nothing because shield kiting blob setups happens to be broken. seems unlikely though considering it's really slow and combat drones are still a joke unless you pay your 100m usable heavy drones tax. where's my 6th lowslot and rep amount bonus?
James Spacecrawler Phantom Space Sheep 0	Posted - 2015.05.22 14:37:00 - [310] - Quote So exploring the thought that Ishtars should lose their ability to field Sentries, should they receive massive railgun bonuses instead to be able to compete with the other long range HACs? Should the Deimos then become the drone boat instead?

Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1820	Posted - 2015.05.22 14:39:08 - [311] - Quote James Spacecrawler wrote: So exploring the thought that Ishtars should lose their ability to field Sentries, should they receive massive railgun bonuses instead to be able to compete with the other long range HACs? Should the Deimos then become the drone boat instead? Technically they could get 2 short range HAC since caldari pretty much have 2 long range ones...
Lister Vindaloo 5 Tons of Flax Unreachable 50	Posted - 2015.05.22 14:41:27 - [312] - Quote This change is really going to hurt the Myrm, sentry Myrms are great fun to fly and are OP but the tracking nerf is pretty harsh especially on gardes, they're pretty much I selects now, curators and bouncers will rule the roost, while we all try and figure out exactly what situation wardens are useful for? Maybe raising the bandwidth for sentries to 30 and buffing bandwidth on hulls you want to launch a full flight along with much milder nerf to sentries themselves would be a less drastic solution But please leave the Myrm with 4 :)
Vivien Meally Des-Meisters-Lakaien Brothers of Tangra 16	Posted - 2015.05.22 14:42:38 - [313] - Quote Sometime i think that CCP Fozzie wants to sabotage the game and CCP. 22,278 players online ...
James Spacecrawler Phantom Space Sheep 0	Posted - 2015.05.22 14:49:11 - [314] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: James Spacecrawler wrote: So exploring the thought that Ishtars should lose their ability to field Sentries, should they receive massive railgun bonuses instead to be able to compete with the other long range HACs? Should the Deimos then become the drone boat instead? Technically they could get 2 short range HAC since caldari pretty much have 2 long range ones... Yeah, I just read the bonuses for the Eagle. That's true then, making the Ishtar a brawling drone boat would still give it a unique feel among the other HACs.
Amarisen Gream Divine Demise 80	Posted - 2015.05.22 15:15:45 - [315] - Quote MechaJeb Kerman wrote: Amarisen Gream wrote: What if this was also done on all drone types... Sentry Salvage drone. Sentry Mining drone Sentry Web drone etc Oh yes, Sentry ECM would be glorious. You get a permajam! And you get a permajam! EVERYBODY GETS A PERMAJAM! Would give you reasons to fit Back up "racial" arrays to your ship. so you can't get ECMed as often... Or just limit their range. Player ECM is what 30-70km A sentry ECM drone could have stats along the line of 20-50km *A drone, ether mobile or fixed should not get the same benefits to EWAR as player controlled EWAR. xoxo* Amarisen Gream
stoicfaux 5664	Posted - 2015.05.22 15:24:50 - [316] - Quote 1. Nerf sentry drones. 2. Add BC with Drone links. 3. ~~???~~ Buff Ishtar, because Ishtar. 4. Profit! Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Basil Pupkin Why So Platypus 197	Posted - 2015.05.22 15:25:50 - [317] - Quote Miner Hottie wrote: Ok. Firstly: look at my corp history, I left the Swarm last week. Goon PVE Ishtars run heavy drones, Wasps to be specific, as they eat frigate rats for breakfast, which Wardens can't do, unless they are 70km away from the rat who has 0 transversal. I couldn't care less if you were a random gewn forum alt, or a random gullible person. Just don't crap on my ears, we all know the Ishtar is not close to the spread propagewnda wants us to believe. Miner Hottie wrote: There are carriers and vindis and Rattlesnakes ratting in Deklein, but they are idiots. You get nearly as good a performance from a T2 Wasp equipped ishtar as a carrier, for far less risk. Now I really wonder who's an idiot here. You really suck at ratting if your rattle/carrier is not nearly twice as efficient as the Ishtar, whatever drones it's using. But then again, you're a gewn, you just lie. And considering that in post-Phoebe world just about the only risk for a carrier is wormholes, which are controllable, you lied again. Miner Hottie wrote: Finally, you need to drop the mental conditioning which says goons always lie. They only usually lie and you won't find much lying from them in these threads. Freaking need chribba to come in and mine all this tinfoil. Finally, seeing the Ishtar nerfed to the pack with the other HAC's would make me very happy. Drone doctrines aren't that great and encourage a pretty limited skill amongst all the players. You lied like every gewn so far. You need to drop the mental condition which makes you lie first. "In these threads" there is only one truth - all but gewns are getting a nerfbat... again. Whoever says otherwise - lies. Just like you. Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy. If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Xenuria Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 1012	Posted - 2015.05.22 15:43:15 - [318] - Quote CCP has said during FanFest and other mediums that they want to bring drones in like with other "Primary Damage Types" meaning Blasters, Lazers, Rails, Etc. This means that a player in a ship designed to benefit drones should be able to viably use drones as a primary and ONLY source of damage output. This is no longer possible, it hasn't been possible for over a year now. In effort to prune "Damage/Power Creep" CCP has started lopping off branches of game-play. If CCP went on record on said something like "Yeah, we no longer see drone dps as a primary damage type in our development narrative" Than there would be no controversy. No reason for anybody to complain. The problem is CCP has never said that and the fitting of drone boats also still reflects the idea of drones as a primary NOT a secondary Damage source. For those that don't understand what could happen if Power Creep isn't checked in an MMO, look at World of Warcraft. EvE Online is quickly becoming a cautionary tale of when Power Creep mitigation goes to far, in the likes of Guild Wars 2 and other power tapered development mentalities. CSM 11 Candidate My Lore Predictions
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 719	Posted - 2015.05.22 15:46:45 - [319] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Now, if only BBcode worked directly in bio's, this would be in mine so so fast. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
MasterGlorfy CyberShield Inc Triumvirate. 6	Posted - 2015.05.22 15:49:35 - [320] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: The slowest HAC is kity and hard to catch?? I believe the point the poster was making was that they kite well and are hard to catch in relation to other ships that wield battleship sized weaponry.

James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 719	Posted - 2015.05.22 15:51:07 - [321] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Rootufi Aldent wrote: Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Can we just get rid of CRUISERS getting bonuses to BATTLESHIP weapons? no, because tornado. Battlecruisers and cruisers are not the same thing. Also, Attack battlecruisers make major tradeoffs to fit those large guns, such as being lightly tanked for cruisers. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 719	Posted - 2015.05.22 15:53:11 - [322] - Quote Xenuria wrote: CCP has said during FanFest and other mediums that they want to bring drones in like with other "Primary Damage Types" meaning Blasters, Lazers, Rails, Etc. This means that a player in a ship designed to benefit drones should be able to viably use drones as a primary and ONLY source of damage output. This is no longer possible, it hasn't been possible for over a year now. In effort to prune "Damage/Power Creep" CCP has started lopping off branches of game-play. If CCP went on record on said something like "Yeah, we no longer see drone dps as a primary damage type in our development narrative" Than there would be no controversy. No reason for anybody to complain. The problem is CCP has never said that and the fitting of drone boats also still reflects the idea of drones as a primary NOT a secondary Damage source. For those that don't understand what could happen if Power Creep isn't checked in an MMO, look at World of Warcraft. EvE Online is quickly becoming a cautionary tale of when Power Creep mitigation goes to far, in the likes of Guild Wars 2 and other power tapered development mentalities. So, if this is the case, bring the ishtar and other drone platform's fitting space into accord with the fittingless nature of their PRIMARY damage source, and thus make them actually make tradeoffs other than downsizing their secondary weapons to fit 100mn MWDs to cruisers. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 466	Posted - 2015.05.22 16:08:34 - [323] - Quote MasterGlorfy wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: The slowest HAC is kity and hard to catch?? I believe the point the poster was making was that they kite well and are hard to catch in relation to other ships that wield battleship sized weaponry. Correct. Also they don't need to worry about tracking, they don't need cap for their guns, they don't need to worry about their range to the enemy (only their sentries range).. Other platforms that put out similar DPS need to actually fit a solid tank, cause they need to be at point blank range.. Ishtars can put out the same DPS, but be 100km away with Drone Links and sebo's.. Not to mention they are immune to EWAR, ECM, TC's, Damps, have no effect on their ability to apply DPS. Agree or disagree that they are OP, the point is, all this talk about sentries is strictly about ONE Hull. Ishtars. Stratios with Sentries isn't OP. Myrm with Sentries isn't OP. Yet they are getting hit with the nerf hammer because CCP doesn't want to, or is unable to address Ishtars.
per Terpene Conglomerate 57	Posted - 2015.05.22 16:21:38 - [324] - Quote is this the right time to ask about electronic warfare drones and combat utility drones, any progress on them or plans to fix/remove them in near future (5+ years?) since they are broken "few" years now
Dentia Caecus Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2015.05.22 16:24:57 - [325] - Quote Sniper Smith wrote: I've gotta say I agree with a lot of the comments here. You keep nerfing sentries, but they aren't the problem, it's the hulls with bonus that make them OP. It would be like nerfing Stasis Web's because of Vindi's. You're making it so the ONLY way Sentries are viable, is on these platforms that are already, at least debatably, OP. Ishtars are the problem. It's not Sentries. It's the fact that not only can a cruiser platform use a full flight of BS grade weapons, but it can do so while remaining kity and hard to catch.... Sniper Smith wrote: MasterGlorfy wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: The slowest HAC is kity and hard to catch?? I believe the point the poster was making was that they kite well and are hard to catch in relation to other ships that wield battleship sized weaponry. Correct. Also they don't need to worry about tracking, they don't need cap for their guns, they don't need to worry about their range to the enemy (only their sentries range).. Other platforms that put out similar DPS need to actually fit a solid tank, cause they need to be at point blank range.. Ishtars can put out the same DPS, but be 100km away with Drone Links and sebo's.. Not to mention they are immune to EWAR, ECM, TC's, Damps, have no effect on their ability to apply DPS. Agree or disagree that they are OP, the point is, all this talk about sentries is strictly about ONE Hull. Ishtars. Stratios with Sentries isn't OP. Myrm with Sentries isn't OP. Yet they are getting hit with the nerf hammer because CCP doesn't want to, or is unable to address Ishtars. The community has overwhelmingly spoken; we have told CCP Fozzie the most workable solution. Instead he sticks his fingers in his ears, and says, essentially " Not matter what I say I will make 90% of you mad, therefore, I know best." Unfortunately for Fozzie, the majority of us are saying the same thing: cruisers (read-the ishtar) should not have a Battleship weapons platform and have provided various solutions to this problem. Instead of listening to the community, the clients , the spokesperson for CCP says "the CSM wanted us to to do more." CCP Fozzie and the CSM voices are drowned by the vast majority of the clients, a.k.a.the players , very simply: " YOU GOT IT WRONG." Bottom line: there is a reverse power creep, aka a "nerf creep" on sentries at work here. Multiple and varied platforms which have drone bonuses that use sentries are just fine: the Dominix and the Armageddon are probably the most widely used; however, there are other sub capital vessels that can field sentries, too and are therefore affected by this nerf: including the Eos, Myrmidon, the Nestor, Sin, Stratios and Vexor Navy. These vessels do not need a nerf at the present time. Fozzie mentioned some of these vessels in his post, but where is the data to support his conclusions, empirical or otherwise. While possible, I would be surprised to learn that fleets of VNI's or Armageddons are out there destroying every fleet encountered. Is it possible? Yes. Likely? No. Are the above hulls useful for other reasons, including, but not limited to mainline pve, skirmish pvp and roles within large pvp with their respective drone bonus intact? Yes. The big offender here is the Ishtar. I happen to love the vessel but I both see and appreciate the bigger picture: Do not nerf an entire weapons system when the overwhelming problem is one *** hull.* Does the community always get it right? No, we don't. But in this instance a cacophony of voices are presenting well reasoned arguments why Fozzie and his team made a mistake. This situation is reminiscent of f the jump changes as applied to JF's. Former CCP Greyscale listened to the community, mea culpa-ed and acted accordingly. I hope Fozzie does the same. I sincerely doubt it, but I have hope.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 270	Posted - 2015.05.22 16:47:43 - [326] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: The slowest HAC is kity and hard to catch?? The eagle is the slowest HAC with MWD. Though the ishtar isnt far behind. The problem is the ishtar can dump sentries and scurry off. Meaning if a ship chases and tackles the ishtar 15-20 seconds later, its sentries will be quite capable of killing the tackle. where as a turret ships dps can be mitigated by TD/close orbit with low sig/high speed. Course an ishtar has no guns, but most likely has neuts to make you immobile and an easy target for sentry blap. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 721	Posted - 2015.05.22 16:48:40 - [327] - Quote So, inspired by the communities reaction to this, and the repeated pointing out that the ishtar and dominix share a similar bonus which is powerful enough to distort how sentries are viewed and used, I put up a thread devoted to fixing those two bonuses, and any other overly powerful dual bonuses people bring to it. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 467	Posted - 2015.05.22 16:55:49 - [328] - Quote I don't necessarly think Cruisers shouldn't have access to Sentry (and heavy) drones. I do feel that they need to be balanced better. Try this on for size.. Ishtar Gal Cruiser Skills - 7.5% Bonus to Heavy Drones Velocity and Tracking. - 10% Bonus to Light, Medium, Heavy drone damage. Heavy Assault Skills - 5% Bonus to Medium and Heavy Drone MWD Speed - 10% Bonus to Light, Medium, and Heavy Drone hitpoints Splits the HP and DPS into separate skills. Gives an advantage to being able to Apply your DPS. Removes Sentries from being relevant in the equation. Hell could also make the Ishtar really unique in giving it a bonus to more than just Combat drones.. Bonus Logistic Drones too, for HP, Speed, and Rep Amount? Point is, this would be far better at dealing with the issues than nerfing sentry drones. Each time you Nerf sentries, it makes it so more and more the only Viable Sentry platforms are those with Bonus to them. Knock it off. Battleships and other boats that field Sentries should be made to suffer just because the Ishtar owns the market. As I said before, what you are doing would be the same as Nerfing web's to combat the Vindi, or Nerfing Neuts to combat the Bhaal.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1276	Posted - 2015.05.22 17:04:17 - [329] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: The slowest HAC is kity and hard to catch?? The eagle is the slowest HAC with MWD. Though the ishtar isnt far behind. The problem is the ishtar can dump sentries and scurry off. Meaning if a ship chases and tackles the ishtar 15-20 seconds later, its sentries will be quite capable of killing the tackle. where as a turret ships dps can be mitigated by TD/close orbit with low sig/high speed. Course an ishtar has no guns, but most likely has neuts to make you immobile and an easy target for sentry blap. Eagle also isn't REMOTELY cap stable, ishtar just YOLOs about with better cap than most laser ships. Also, try jamming a 100mn on any other HAC maintaining full firepower....
Styphon the Black Forced Euthanasia Soviet-Union 24	Posted - 2015.05.22 17:20:12 - [330] - Quote Stop the nerfs already you are killing my toon and all the skill training and time I have put into this character. I started training toward carriers because I thought that would be cool. Months later nerf to the abilities. So then I redirected and decided to alter course and fly and Ishtar. Then again another nerf. Obviously since I use Gallente ships. Hybrid weapons are my weapon choice and then again nerf to medium hybrids. Just completed training up to sentry drone 5 and not again nerf to sentries. Training into a toon takes months and years of real time and that time equals "real" dollar amounts of keeping your account active and at every turn it seems that CCP pulls out the nerf bat. CCP I also like to fly the Dominix, Gila, Stratios and Rattlesnake. I am also training into an Arazu. So would you like to get your nerf bat out and slaps some negatives onto those ships as well?

James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 721	Posted - 2015.05.22 17:26:00 - [331] - Quote Styphon the Black wrote: Stop the nerfs already you are killing my toon and all the skill training and time I have put into this character. I started training toward carriers because I thought that would be cool. Months later nerf to the abilities. So then I redirected and decided to alter course and fly and Ishtar. Then again another nerf. Obviously since I use Gallente ships. Hybrid weapons are my weapon choice and then again nerf to medium hybrids. Just completed training up to sentry drone 5 and not again nerf to sentries. Training into a toon takes months and years of real time and that time equals "real" dollar amounts of keeping your account active and at every turn it seems that CCP pulls out the nerf bat. CCP I also like to fly the Dominix, Gila, Stratios and Rattlesnake. I am also training into an Arazu. So would you like to get your nerf bat out and slaps some negatives onto those ships as well? Lets see, trained towards one OP ship, then another OP ship, then a weapon system nerf specific to a single OP variety of medium hybrids. Gila needs a bit of a bay reduction to bring it in line for staying power, but everything else there ought to be fine. At least it isn't anything like as bad as the TE nerf, or the battlecruiser nuke. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Valterra Craven 545	Posted - 2015.05.22 17:55:53 - [332] - Quote Kitty Bear wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Kitty Bear wrote: Lady Aesir wrote: Ishtar A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD oh noes ... the stealth bombers ..... Yeah a whole class of ships designed to die if a flea landed on them... again not comparable. yes it is .. the point raised was cruisers should not have access to battleship sized weapons but without a supporting thread demanding the removal of battleship sized weapons from frigates the point is redundant No... it isn't. The problem is that drone cruisers are the only ships in their entire class that have access to oversized weapons and are not appropriately balanced. Stealth Bombers exist for all races and have been balanced. Battlecurisers with BS weapons for all races exist and have been balanced. There is NO appropriate comparison to cruiser drone ships.
Styphon the Black Forced Euthanasia Soviet-Union 24	Posted - 2015.05.22 18:01:35 - [333] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Styphon the Black wrote: Stop the nerfs already you are killing my toon and all the skill training and time I have put into this character. I started training toward carriers because I thought that would be cool. Months later nerf to the abilities. So then I redirected and decided to alter course and fly and Ishtar. Then again another nerf. Obviously since I use Gallente ships. Hybrid weapons are my weapon choice and then again nerf to medium hybrids. Just completed training up to sentry drone 5 and not again nerf to sentries. Training into a toon takes months and years of real time and that time equals "real" dollar amounts of keeping your account active and at every turn it seems that CCP pulls out the nerf bat. CCP I also like to fly the Dominix, Gila, Stratios and Rattlesnake. I am also training into an Arazu. So would you like to get your nerf bat out and slaps some negatives onto those ships as well? Lets see, trained towards one OP ship, then another OP ship, then a weapon system nerf specific to a single OP variety of medium hybrids. Gila needs a bit of a bay reduction to bring it in line for staying power, but everything else there ought to be fine. At least it isn't anything like as bad as the TE nerf, or the battlecruiser nuke. I haven't been playing this game for the last decade like some folks. I have been playing for the under a year. I didn't choose the kind of ship I wanted to train towards because it was the "meta" or flavor of the month. I wanted to fly it because it was the type of platform that I wanted to fly. However, within the last year. I have seen numerous changes to kill every single platform that I have trained towards. Drones ships! I think it is silly to nerf the weapon system so badly... like they did with the Medium Hybrids. Which is used on a lot more ships than just the few OP platforms that made the numbers appear off. Same thing goes for Sentries. Sentries are not the problem. The problem is the couple of small hull bonused platforms being used in large alliance meta. These are pointless and endless changes. So if you kill sentries and ishtars and all drone ships for that matter. You will just end up with another ship type or weapon system that is OP that the large allainces adopt. Than again CCP will pull out the nerf bat. So then other people that have trained into those ships and weapon systems, have a bunch of skill that they have spent lost of time and money training toward made to be worth "less" and be not as useful as they were today (when they were considered OP).
Sticky wizzleteats Spartan Industries 1	Posted - 2015.05.22 18:34:52 - [334] - Quote Sabriz Adoudel wrote: You're making the right call. If you nerf Ishtars hard, then the Vexor Navy Issue or the Dominix or the Armageddon or the Rattlesnake will just replace it as the sentry platform of choice. That said, monitor closely how this change works in practice, and if the Ishtar remains better than the second and third best cruiser-size hulls combined, it's time for a little more nerfbat loving for that hull; maybe dropping the role bonus from 5% to 4% or even 3% for sentinels Also remember the nuclear option on sentries if needed - making heavies 20mb/s bandwidth, sentries 30mb/s, and then making the Ishtar and VNI both 100mb/s while battleship droneboats get 120 or 150mb/s as appropriate to the hull. If this patch PLUS a recalibration of the Ishtar hull don't solve the problem, bring out that nuclear option. This guy has a great idea. CCP please consider this.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.22 18:38:58 - [335] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Hilti Enaka wrote: I've said this many times after seeing the game become more and more "balanced", nice way of saying nerf BTW. When things are "unbalanced" they game is exciting and you have people trying to theory craft ways to counter the trends. Many times over I've seen exciting gameplays get it's arsed ripped out because CCP decided to nerf rather than be proactive and think of ways to allow us gamers to counter act. Part of what made/makes eve so exciting is the freedom but the rules and the constant tiers of "this needs balancing" annoys me rotten. This is what made Eve so formidable as a MMORPG. Please Fozzie, rather than nerf things and sugar coat it as balancing, think in the opposite direction to allow us to think strategically about being able to play out counter-attacks. The way it is at the moment you nerf one thing and another gameplay will emerge that you will nerf cough balance again. It's been months and the statu quo is still that Ishtar are dominant. You'd think the playerbase would of found other counter by now beside faction battleships? Do you think people didn't look at the ship roster to find what was possible with the current setup? How long do we let something unbalanced to push people to try new things? How long before we consider the baalnce was actually FUBAR and need to be modified because the ideas just plainly don't work? Yes but consider this: You fly and own OP ship A. OP ship A gets nerfed to Very Strong. There are other Very Strong ships, but you don't own them nor are fully trained into them. What will you fly? You will likely still fly ship A. It takes a long time for a small change to have a wide spread impact. If they nerfed the Ishtar so that 3-4 other ships are cleary better than it, then you would see a much more rapid change in ship use. But over-nerfing is bad for games. We don't want that. The Ishtar might still be too strong, but only more time will tell for sure.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 271	Posted - 2015.05.22 18:43:54 - [336] - Quote afkalt wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: The slowest HAC is kity and hard to catch?? The eagle is the slowest HAC with MWD. Though the ishtar isnt far behind. The problem is the ishtar can dump sentries and scurry off. Meaning if a ship chases and tackles the ishtar 15-20 seconds later, its sentries will be quite capable of killing the tackle. where as a turret ships dps can be mitigated by TD/close orbit with low sig/high speed. Course an ishtar has no guns, but most likely has neuts to make you immobile and an easy target for sentry blap. Eagle also isn't REMOTELY cap stable, ishtar just YOLOs about with better cap than most laser ships. Also, try jamming a 100mn on any other HAC maintaining full firepower.... Vagabond is okish with 100mn+XLASB with alittle pimp. But i understand your point, and the ishtar probably doesnt need to sacrifice much to make 100mn work. Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 723	Posted - 2015.05.22 18:46:30 - [337] - Quote Styphon the Black wrote: I haven't been playing this game for the last decade like some folks. I have been playing for the under a year. I didn't choose the kind of ship I wanted to train towards because it was the "meta" or flavor of the month. I wanted to fly it because it was the type of platform that I wanted to fly. However, within the last year. I have seen numerous changes to kill every single platform that I have trained towards. Drones ships! I think it is silly to nerf the weapon system so badly... like they did with the Medium Hybrids. Which is used on a lot more ships than just the few OP platforms that made the numbers appear off. Same thing goes for Sentries. Sentries are not the problem. The problem is the couple of small hull bonused platforms being used in large alliance meta. These are pointless and endless changes. So if you kill sentries and ishtars and all drone ships for that matter. You will just end up with another ship type or weapon system that is OP that the large allainces adopt. Than again CCP will pull out the nerf bat. So then other people that have trained into those ships and weapon systems, have a bunch of skill that they have spent lost of time and money training toward made to be worth "less" and be not as useful as they were today (when they were not considered OP today). Medium rails got nerfed, and they needed it, bad. 250s had almost the same DPS as blasters, the best range, low cap use and reasonably priced ammo. They obsoleted anything else that can go on a medium hull but drones beyond scram range. As for the other part of hybrids, blasters remain blasters. lovable, epic damage, and all the range you expect from someone in a wheelchair trying to punch you. Sentries are part of the problem. The other side is the hulls. A big part of the problem with ishtars is the combo of great applied DPS at range with all the fitting room in the world if you don't decide to fit guns and just rely on the strongly bonused drones. The other HACs could theoretically murder ishtars (other than the eagle) if there was more nearly damage parity, or range parity. As for drone ships in general, they are epic in part because drone damage amps and other drone bonused equipment was added without a strong look at polishing the drones themselves along with them, and the synergistic effects between the modules, the drones and the hulls took them from being "okay, I guess, but remember that drones aren't a primary weapon" to "why bother fitting guns? you can just use drones and neuts" and there was no loss of fitting room or more than the 1 slot to bring them back closer into line. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
evotta Territorial Hanseatic League 1	Posted - 2015.05.22 18:46:42 - [338] - Quote +1 for the small change. However it is quite small
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 723	Posted - 2015.05.22 18:48:15 - [339] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: afkalt wrote: Stitch Kaneland wrote: Aplysia Vejun wrote: The slowest HAC is kity and hard to catch?? The eagle is the slowest HAC with MWD. Though the ishtar isnt far behind. The problem is the ishtar can dump sentries and scurry off. Meaning if a ship chases and tackles the ishtar 15-20 seconds later, its sentries will be quite capable of killing the tackle. where as a turret ships dps can be mitigated by TD/close orbit with low sig/high speed. Course an ishtar has no guns, but most likely has neuts to make you immobile and an easy target for sentry blap. Eagle also isn't REMOTELY cap stable, ishtar just YOLOs about with better cap than most laser ships. Also, try jamming a 100mn on any other HAC maintaining full firepower.... Vagabond is okish with 100mn+XLASB with alittle pimp. But i understand your point, and the ishtar probably doesnt need to sacrifice much to make 100mn work. can literally drop a 100mn AB into most shield ishtar setups in place of a 10mn micro without any change. Can make 100mn AB and 1600 plate work on the same cruiser, something nothing only it and t3s can do. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Sticky wizzleteats Spartan Industries 1	Posted - 2015.05.22 18:51:10 - [340] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: Kitty Bear wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Kitty Bear wrote: Lady Aesir wrote: Ishtar A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD oh noes ... the stealth bombers ..... Yeah a whole class of ships designed to die if a flea landed on them... again not comparable. yes it is .. the point raised was cruisers should not have access to battleship sized weapons but without a supporting thread demanding the removal of battleship sized weapons from frigates the point is redundant No... it isn't. The problem is that drone cruisers are the only ships in their entire class that have access to oversized weapons and are not appropriately balanced. Stealth Bombers exist for all races and have been balanced. Battlecurisers with BS weapons for all races exist and have been balanced. There is NO appropriate comparison to cruiser drone ships. I disagree Stealth bombers have not been balanced....they don't decloak each other... And bombs are op when 100 people in wave after wave of bombers can hit you controled by on person squad warping people, and they just have to fire the bomb when told. Also instead of taking sentries away from drone boats, instead reduce their bandwidth to 100. I've 4 drones

Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.22 19:02:29 - [341] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: What about cutting out some of the ishtars dronebay so it cant have extra sets of almost every sentry? Fairly mild change and makes killing its drones a bit more feasible. You do know that an Ishtar can carry 3 sets of sentries in total, right? That usually means 1 or 2 types with 1 to 2 spares sets. I highly doubt that having a spare set of sentry drones is what makes the Ishtar too good.
Starain SoT The Gorgon Empire 78	Posted - 2015.05.22 19:07:32 - [342] - Quote At first I thought "At last! Finally", but then... tracking penalty for drones working from long range, optimal penalty, BUT falloff boosting. Rename thread in "So, we in CCP decided to nerf drones... by boosting drones...dunno, don't ask me, police raid in our office was a loooooooong time ago, it's not smoke, it's just morning fog in our building, it will disappear, soon!"
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.05.22 19:08:27 - [343] - Quote James Baboli wrote: can literally drop a 100mn AB into most shield ishtar setups in place of a 10mn micro without any change. Can make 100mn AB and 1600 plate work on the same cruiser, something nothing only it and t3s can do. I'm really curious. How? 1600mm plate (tungsten): 500 mw 100mn experimental AB: 625mw PW( Skill at V): 975
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.22 19:08:51 - [344] - Quote Kitty Bear wrote: Maximum Bandwidth by base hull and core design role Is a Drone Boat Frigate/Destroyer - 25 Cruiser/BC - 50 Battleship - 125 Not a Drone Boat Frigate/Destroyer - 10 Cruiser/BC - 25 Battleship - 50 Drone boats then can be diversified by any applied bonus HP, Tracking, Damage, MWD Speed, Optimal/Fall-off etc if you gave Give the Dominix a HP, Tracking & MWD bonus, and the Navy version a optimal/fall-off bonus & Damage bonus one would be better with heavies, the other with sentries. the whole sentry-Ishtar meta becomes moot as it would no longer be possible The Ishtar would no longer be used for fleets, at all. As you remove the only ranged drone. It is not as simple as removing sentries, you have to replace it with something or you have changed they ships very nature.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1279	Posted - 2015.05.22 19:29:18 - [345] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: James Baboli wrote: can literally drop a 100mn AB into most shield ishtar setups in place of a 10mn micro without any change. Can make 100mn AB and 1600 plate work on the same cruiser, something nothing only it and t3s can do. I'm really curious. How? 1600mm plate (tungsten): 500 mw 100mn experimental AB: 625mw PW( Skill at V): 975 Couple of ancils. It's doable, it's not a great fit, shield is probably better. [Ishtar, Armor Example] Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Dark Blood Armor Explosive Hardener Drone Damage Amplifier II Experimental 100MN Afterburner I Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Drone Link Augmentor II Drone Link Augmentor II [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Bouncer II x5 Pretty tanky, 43k EHP, 1k M/S unscramable so mitigating a lot @145 sig
Deralt Mangeiri Drunk Squad 0	Posted - 2015.05.22 19:29:55 - [346] - Quote -¦-¦-¦ -¦-ï -+-¦-¦-+-+ -¦-+-+-¦-+-ï-¦-¦-é-î -é-+ -ç-é-+ -Ç-¦-¦-+-é-¦-¦-é, -ç-+-+-+-é-î -+-¦-ç-¦-¦-+ -ç-é-+-+-+ ?
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.22 19:31:10 - [347] - Quote Sticky wizzleteats wrote: Also instead of taking sentries away from drone boats, instead reduce their bandwidth to 100. I've 4 drones They did the equivalent to the Ishtar already. Ishtar (125MB): 5 sentries x 25% damage bonus = 6.25 sentries. Myrmidon (100MB): 4 sentries x 50% damage bonus = 6 sentries. There is a lot more to the issue than this.
punch monke Spartan Industries 1	Posted - 2015.05.22 19:36:09 - [348] - Quote If sentries were the only issue and are so overpowered, why are the other ships list by others here not overpowered. The he Ishtar has bonuses to range dps, and with mods they can hit to 100k while being nowhere close to you, good speed, t2 resist, low sig, cap stability, no risk due to extreme ranges that comes with bouncers, and curators. Please fix the ** hull, not a blanket nerf to all drone ships. Also nerfing the garde that much will make it largely unusable regardless of the falloff. Bouncers and curators will be the only sentries worth using which you stated is getting main problem with them now. Please also change the warden. Extreme drone range, with ** dps is not good for hardly any application.
Valterra Craven 547	Posted - 2015.05.22 20:48:19 - [349] - Quote Sticky wizzleteats wrote: I disagree Stealth bombers have not been balanced.... You can disagree all you want, but they have been balanced for their capabilities. Sticky wizzleteats wrote: they don't decloak each other.... Because if they did, they'd be totally useless. Sticky wizzleteats wrote: And bombs are op when 100 people in wave after wave of bombers can hit you controled by on person squad warping people, and they just have to fire the bomb when told. And yet, that's still less op then drone DELEGATION. Or did you forget that one person could literally control a ton of drones whereas with bombs people actually have to fire them and target things themselves (ala torps). Sticky wizzleteats wrote: Also instead of taking sentries away from drone boats, instead reduce their bandwidth to 100. I've 4 drones Doesn't address their ranges or anything else about the fits on the ishtar that make them overpowered.
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 834	Posted - 2015.05.22 20:55:55 - [350] - Quote Stealth bombers were balanced by the ban on input broadcasting.

Fourteen Maken The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology Enemy Spotted. 163	Posted - 2015.05.22 21:41:16 - [351] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Sentries need to be balanced with battleship hulls in mind, ie mostly just their damage application to small targets. If you try to balance them so cruisers can use full flights of them it's just never going to work. Ishtar/VNI should not be able to field full flights of heavies OR sentries, no point blaming players or as you put it 'the meta' when you put battleship dps with buffs to tracking on a cruiser hull of course people are going to abuse it.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 13062	Posted - 2015.05.22 21:43:30 - [352] - Quote Primary This Rifter wrote: Stealth bombers were balanced by the ban on input broadcasting. This, nevermind the fact that talking about stealth bombers is wildly off topic. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Fourteen Maken The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology Enemy Spotted. 163	Posted - 2015.05.22 21:59:42 - [353] - Quote Dentia Caecus wrote: These vessels do not need a nerf at the present time. Fozzie mentioned some of these vessels in his post, but where is the data to support his conclusions, empirical or otherwise. While possible, I would be surprised to learn that fleets of VNI's or Armageddons are out there destroying every fleet encountered. Is it possible? Yes. Likely? No. Are the above hulls useful for other reasons, including, but not limited to mainline pve, skirmish pvp and roles within large pvp with their respective drone bonus intact? Yes. The big offender here is the Ishtar. I happen to love the vessel but I both see and appreciate the bigger picture: Do not nerf an entire weapons system when the overwhelming problem is one *** hull.* Does the community always get it right? No, we don't. But in this instance a cacophony of voices are presenting well reasoned arguments why Fozzie and his team made a mistake. This situation is reminiscent of f the jump changes as applied to JF's. Former CCP Greyscale listened to the community, mea culpa-ed and acted accordingly. I hope Fozzie does the same. I sincerely doubt it, but I have hope. The VNI is way out of line compared to other navy cruisers, here's the number of kills for each navy cruiser in April 2015: Vexor Navy Issue: 15 770 Exequror Navy Issue: 1 734 Caracal Navy Issue: 689 Osprey Navy Issue: 695 Scythe Fleet Issue: 3 695 Stabber Fleet Issue: 3 242 Navy Omen: 9 992 Augoror Navy Issue: 5 356 So the Navy Vexor is getting nearly 23 times more kills than a Navy Caracal
Casivek Andrard Bloody Cross Syndicate Violent Declaration 6	Posted - 2015.05.22 22:13:22 - [354] - Quote All this does it make me want to use the Ishtar more so as any other ship that uses sentries without the double bonus is now ****. Thus N+1 is all that will happen till the hull NOT drone is nurfed.
Tiddle Jr Galvanized Inc. 199	Posted - 2015.05.22 23:32:53 - [355] - Quote Did someone managed to write a farewell song for Sentry Dominix? If not i'll give a PLEX to composer.
Tiddle Jr Galvanized Inc. 199	Posted - 2015.05.22 23:38:13 - [356] - Quote Did someone managed to write a farewell song for Sentry Dominix? If not i'll give a PLEX to composer.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 13066	Posted - 2015.05.22 23:54:41 - [357] - Quote Tiddle Jr wrote: Did someone managed to write a farewell song for Sentry Dominix? If not i'll give a PLEX to composer. Oh Dominix, the shelf the shelf is calling. From gate to gate, or at zero at the sun. Your days are gone, no longer are you useful. The Ishtar is the last remaining one. Will you come back, when buffed a time or two? Or when drones are finally reworked? I'll be here waiting, although I may have short sold you. Oh Dominix, oh Dominix you make me blue. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Casivek Andrard Bloody Cross Syndicate Violent Declaration 7	Posted - 2015.05.23 00:00:31 - [358] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tiddle Jr wrote: Did someone managed to write a farewell song for Sentry Dominix? If not i'll give a PLEX to composer. Oh Dominix, the shelf the shelf is calling. From gate to gate, or at zero at the sun. Your days are gone, no longer are you useful. The Ishtar is the last remaining one. Will you come back, when buffed a time or two? Or when drones are finally reworked? I'll be here waiting, although I may have short sold you. Oh Dominix, oh Dominix you make me blue. Shame how true it is and bravo.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1162	Posted - 2015.05.23 00:07:02 - [359] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Sentries need to be balanced with battleship hulls in mind, ie mostly just their damage application to small targets. If you try to balance them so cruisers can use full flights of them it's just never going to work. Ishtar/VNI should not be able to field full flights of heavies OR sentries, no point blaming players or as you put it 'the meta' when you put battleship dps with buffs to tracking on a cruiser hull of course people are going to abuse it. Actually I think that cruisers should get heavies with bonuses on them in specific hulls. They should not get bonuses on sentries though for tracking. This would allow pve boats to fit accordingly if they wanted better sentry tracking or just use raw sentries for some ranged power, but well bonused mediums and heavies should be the realm of cruisers/battlecruisers (with some bc's like the eos being able to field sentries with bonuses).
Casivek Andrard Bloody Cross Syndicate Violent Declaration 7	Posted - 2015.05.23 00:10:12 - [360] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Sentries need to be balanced with battleship hulls in mind, ie mostly just their damage application to small targets. If you try to balance them so cruisers can use full flights of them it's just never going to work. Ishtar/VNI should not be able to field full flights of heavies OR sentries, no point blaming players or as you put it 'the meta' when you put battleship dps with buffs to tracking on a cruiser hull of course people are going to abuse it. Actually I think that cruisers should get heavies with bonuses on them in specific hulls. They should not get bonuses on sentries though for tracking. This would allow pve boats to fit accordingly if they wanted better sentry tracking or just use raw sentries for some ranged power, but well bonused mediums and heavies should be the realm of cruisers/battlecruisers (with some bc's like the eos being able to field sentries with bonuses). That requires CCP to actually think though something they refuse to do half the time, besides the art team.

James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 724	Posted - 2015.05.23 00:21:47 - [361] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: James Baboli wrote: can literally drop a 100mn AB into most shield ishtar setups in place of a 10mn micro without any change. Can make 100mn AB and 1600 plate work on the same cruiser, something nothing only it and t3s can do. I'm really curious. How? 1600mm plate (tungsten): 500 mw 100mn experimental AB: 625mw PW( Skill at V): 975 Never said it was easy. https://o.smium.org/loadout/private/31215/2037433194168451072 RCU2 + PG 3% gets it there with an m4 plate, 4-6% and/or a rig quickly gives you room for other fittings which take up some PG. can drop implant if you go storyline on the plate. Will be much easier post carnyx release though as the tungsten plate + compact 100mn AB gives us 480+ 563 = 943, which means any PG mod or implant lets you get enough space to fill slots with a few things that use more than 1PG. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 724	Posted - 2015.05.23 00:33:27 - [362] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Tiddle Jr wrote: Did someone managed to write a farewell song for Sentry Dominix? If not i'll give a PLEX to composer. Oh Dominix, the shelf the shelf is calling. From gate to gate, or at zero at the sun. Your days are gone, no longer are you useful. The Ishtar is the last remaining one. Will you come back, when buffed a time or two? Or when drones are finally reworked? I'll be here waiting, although I may have short sold you. Oh Dominix, oh Dominix you make me blue. Scans much better as Oh Dominix, the shelf the shelf is calling. From gate to gate, or zero on the sun. Your days are gone, no longer are ye useful. tis true tis you the fozzie went and slay-ed. Will you come back, when buffed a time or two? Or when drones are finally reworked? I'll be here in station waiting, although I may have short sold you. Oh Dominix, oh Dominix you make me blue. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Syn Shi School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 170	Posted - 2015.05.23 01:32:35 - [363] - Quote So what is going to happen when the zergs move to the next ship and zerg everyone down. Nerf that ship? Any ship with enough players will seem OP.....or in an arena where ships cant fly out of range.
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 13078	Posted - 2015.05.23 02:15:24 - [364] - Quote Syn Shi wrote: So what is going to happen when the zergs move to the next ship and zerg everyone down. Nerf that ship? Not unless that ship has a battleship tank, battleship dps (with capless, immune to ewar guns), more than battleship projection, cruiser sig radius, and a resist profile that literally defines the rest of the ship meta. Quote: Any ship with enough players will seem OP.....or in an arena where ships cant fly out of range. Cry more about other people being allowed to have friends. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2208	Posted - 2015.05.23 02:16:56 - [365] - Quote Syn Shi wrote: So what is going to happen when the zergs move to the next ship and zerg everyone down. Nerf that ship? Any ship with enough players will seem OP.....or in an arena where ships cant fly out of range. If every group is using the same ship, that's a pretty good sign that ship is out of balance, so pretty much yes. The ideal situation is that all the groups end up using different fleets and swapping doctrines in & out regularly as enemy doctrines change to try and find the ideal counter without being countered themselves. As that indicates every ship is doing well. On the topic of sentry Nerfs, why not change their resolution to 400? As appropriate for BS sized weapons which their DPS and range projection of said DPS indicate they are. Heavies can stay at 125 or meet on the middle at 250 or something to give them an advantage over sentries to make up for travel time. And we can see how that changes things.
Syn Shi School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 172	Posted - 2015.05.23 02:34:53 - [366] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Syn Shi wrote: So what is going to happen when the zergs move to the next ship and zerg everyone down. Nerf that ship? Any ship with enough players will seem OP.....or in an arena where ships cant fly out of range. If every group is using the same ship, that's a pretty good sign that ship is out of balance, so pretty much yes. The ideal situation is that all the groups end up using different fleets and swapping doctrines in & out regularly as enemy doctrines change to try and find the ideal counter without being countered themselves. As that indicates every ship is doing well. On the topic of sentry Nerfs, why not change their resolution to 400? As appropriate for BS sized weapons which their DPS and range projection of said DPS indicate they are. Heavies can stay at 125 or meet on the middle at 250 or something to give them an advantage over sentries to make up for travel time. And we can see how that changes things. Just give the Ishtar the same bandwidth as the Stratios and be done with the drama.
Miner Hottie Haywire. 127	Posted - 2015.05.23 03:22:30 - [367] - Quote Basil Pupkin wrote: Miner Hottie wrote: Ok. Firstly: look at my corp history, I left the Swarm last week. Goon PVE Ishtars run heavy drones, Wasps to be specific, as they eat frigate rats for breakfast, which Wardens can't do, unless they are 70km away from the rat who has 0 transversal. I couldn't care less if you were a random gewn forum alt, or a random gullible person. Just don't crap on my ears, we all know the Ishtar is not close to the spread propagewnda wants us to believe. Miner Hottie wrote: There are carriers and vindis and Rattlesnakes ratting in Deklein, but they are idiots. You get nearly as good a performance from a T2 Wasp equipped ishtar as a carrier, for far less risk. Now I really wonder who's an idiot here. You really suck at ratting if your rattle/carrier is not nearly twice as efficient as the Ishtar, whatever drones it's using. But then again, you're a gewn, you just lie. And considering that in post-Phoebe world just about the only risk for a carrier is wormholes, which are controllable, you lied again. Miner Hottie wrote: Finally, you need to drop the mental conditioning which says goons always lie. They only usually lie and you won't find much lying from them in these threads. Freaking need chribba to come in and mine all this tinfoil. Finally, seeing the Ishtar nerfed to the pack with the other HAC's would make me very happy. Drone doctrines aren't that great and encourage a pretty limited skill amongst all the players. You lied like every gewn so far. You need to drop the mental condition which makes you lie first. "In these threads" there is only one truth - all but gewns are getting a nerfbat... again. Whoever says otherwise - lies. Just like you. Basil. You are the reason goons thrive. You are so deluded and blinded by your own self worth and ability, you are a case study in the Dunning-Kruger effect. Nerf Ishtars, goons will change doctrines without a care in the world. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Justin Cody Tri-gun Meet The Bandits. 273	Posted - 2015.05.23 03:51:40 - [368] - Quote I fly everything. I am the meta. MUAHAHAHAHA
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 977	Posted - 2015.05.23 04:02:19 - [369] - Quote Miner Hottie wrote: you are a case study in the Dunning-Kruger effect. I will have to remember that one! The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
Miner Hottie Haywire. 129	Posted - 2015.05.23 04:52:12 - [370] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Miner Hottie wrote: you are a case study in the Dunning-Kruger effect. I will have to remember that one! Be my guest. It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.

DEFANDER Jenny from the block 9	Posted - 2015.05.23 07:10:47 - [371] - Quote Hey there, Like everyone else already posted, this will ** up the other hulls, especially for PvE content. No more sentries on Rattlesnakes if this goes live. For now you need like 2 Tracking links on a rattlesnake to be able to track . Why are you forcing everyone into using heavy drones? Your want a way to "FIX" this entire storm ? Make it like this. When a ship deploys sentries - make it so that it remains STATIONARY**. Just like when using a cyno. Leave the sentries like they are, just don't allow the ships fielding them to move. That will actually make the "theorycrafters" in the big blocks think instead of just going "ohh that so op.. all use that"
Shun Makoto Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Curatores Veritatis Alliance 54	Posted - 2015.05.23 12:27:13 - [372] - Quote Remove Sentry bonus from Ishtar Make Sentries only useful for 300m sig radius and up (can hit most Battlecruisers and can still hit Battlehsips) Additional thought: Outside a certain range from your Sentry drones they either become inactive and won't shoot anything or stop accepting commands Caldari Independant Navy Reserve Curatores Veritatis Alliance Patriot Faction Former 22nd BRDU - Retired Milita Wing Commander
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 275	Posted - 2015.05.23 12:37:39 - [373] - Quote DEFANDER wrote: Hey there, Like everyone else already posted, this will ** up the other hulls, especially for PvE content. No more sentries on Rattlesnakes if this goes live. For now you need like 2 Tracking links on a rattlesnake to be able to track . Why are you forcing everyone into using heavy drones? Your want a way to "FIX" this entire storm ? Make it like this. When a ship deploys sentries - make it so that it remains STATIONARY**. Just like when using a cyno. Leave the sentries like they are, just don't allow the ships fielding them to move. That will actually make the "theorycrafters" in the big blocks think instead of just going "ohh that so op.. all use that" Speaking of, heavies really could use a bit of an upward nudge.
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1062	Posted - 2015.05.23 12:41:04 - [374] - Quote Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Speaking of, heavies really could use a bit of an upward nudge. Buff them even more? Heavies already wreck AB'ing frigates. I fail to see how you can want much more of them. Drones need a major nerf since the last drone tracking iteration, currently all drones got stupid good damage output and application. That said after benchng machs for hole rolling and pretty much any ship removed from the hangar that isn't a droneboat for reasons.
Celgar Thurn Department 10 182	Posted - 2015.05.23 14:25:29 - [375] - Quote The main problem seems to be usage of sentry drones by the Ishtar. To my mind sentry drones are a battleship weapon so would it not make much more sense to stop Ishtars using sentry drones at all At a glance the proposed changes to the Garde sentry drones seem very excessive.
March rabbit Federal Defense Union 1654	Posted - 2015.05.23 20:35:21 - [376] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Lord LazyGhost wrote: Jessica Danikov wrote: How about returning drones to the traditional meta where both the speed of the attacker and the defender play into tracking and damage application? The fact that drone boats enjoy full mobility without any penalty to damage application has always been disproportionately advantageous. The fix is simple- have sentry drones be aimed by the hull, e.g. make the tracking relative to the hull. This will improve tracking in certain circumstances, while reducing it in many others, often proportional to any defensive bonuses incurred through piloting. Fundamentally, piloting will play a bigger part in sentry drone pilots lives rather than sentry drones being easy mode and thus favoured for nerfs into the ground. got to remmber unlike other ships drones can loose all their dammage if killed Got to remember unlike the other turret ships, drones track their targets irrespective of the velocity, range, or direction of the host ship, and losing target lock does not nullify damage dealt. Capless, omni-damage weapons systems to boot. missiles? The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 474	Posted - 2015.05.23 21:26:37 - [377] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Lord LazyGhost wrote: Jessica Danikov wrote: How about returning drones to the traditional meta where both the speed of the attacker and the defender play into tracking and damage application? The fact that drone boats enjoy full mobility without any penalty to damage application has always been disproportionately advantageous. The fix is simple- have sentry drones be aimed by the hull, e.g. make the tracking relative to the hull. This will improve tracking in certain circumstances, while reducing it in many others, often proportional to any defensive bonuses incurred through piloting. Fundamentally, piloting will play a bigger part in sentry drone pilots lives rather than sentry drones being easy mode and thus favoured for nerfs into the ground. got to remmber unlike other ships drones can loose all their dammage if killed Got to remember unlike the other turret ships, drones track their targets irrespective of the velocity, range, or direction of the host ship, and losing target lock does not nullify damage dealt. Capless, omni-damage weapons systems to boot. missiles? Even better than Missiles.. FOF missiles do **** all for damage vs normal. Also you still need to be in range to use missiles, given this is a Cruiser, we need do compare it vs Heavy/Heavy Assault missiles, and in both cases the control range alone on a hull like the Ishtar blows away the ranges a missile cruiser can put down.. Still, in the end, as I've said before, it's the Ishtar's range and bonuses to Sentries that make it broken. The Ishtar is what needs to be rebalanced. Other sentry boats, even Domi's don't come close.
James Zimmer Furtherance. 15	Posted - 2015.05.23 22:00:05 - [378] - Quote As some have alluded to, and some may have said directly (sorry, not going to read 19 pages) I'm not sure sentries are the problem. The issue is that "drone boats" are much more than just drone boats; they're combat ships that have a second ship's worth of DPS ready to go in their drone bays. Let's do a quick comparison between the strongest T1 cruiser in the game (Vexor), and that other Gallente cruiser (Thorax). Before you put drones into the equation, they are remarkably similar when it comes potential damage output. The Vexor gets 4 bonused hybrid turrets, and the Thorax gets 5. The difference may be even smaller when you consider powergrid into the equation. Both ships are somewhat weak when it comes to PG, and though I haven't tested it, I imagine it may be possible to fit larger guns on the Vexor, since you only need PG for 4 of them. Now let's bring drones into the equation. A Thorax can use a full set of unbonused medium drones, but that leaves it frighteningly unprepared for fast tackle, so in reality, it will probably go with a set of lights and a set of ECM drones. The most conservative Vexor that you are ever likely to see, that prioritizes projection over DPS, will probably have a full set of massively bonused medium drones. Another valid setup is a max damage setup, with 2 heavies, 2 mediums and 1 light. This still leaves it with enough drone bay capacity to field a flight of lights to chase away fast tackle, and a set of ECM drones to get out of dodge. The end result is a ship that competes with battleships for raw damage output. It is so OP when it comes to DPS, that it can afford to throw away nearly a Thorax's worth of blasters and toss in nuets instead, making it a peerless T1 cap warefare cruiser, as well as a very good damage dealer. More or less, it's 2 ships in 1 hull. While I use the Vexor as an example, the problem exists with the Tristan, all the way up to the Dominix. Instead of nerfing the drones, which will hurt a lot of ships that really don't need a nerf, let's nerf the ships by giving them fewer high slots or less powergrid. The Arbitrator, with its poor powergrid, is a fine example of a drone boat that can easily be used effectively, but also doesn't break the game.
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 475	Posted - 2015.05.23 23:00:41 - [379] - Quote Personally I don't see the Vexor or Domi as OP.. The Ishtar is. It's in essence a Domi DPS and Projection, in a Vexor sized ship, with T2 Tank, oh and a massive range bonus so it can control drones from almost anywhere on the grid depending on the setup. It's insane. At least the other ships have compamises.. a Vexor wields weaker drones, a Domi is a slow space potato, but the Ishtar is all pro's no con's.. And rather than address it, you decide to make EVERY Ship that can field a flight of Sentries, bonused or otherwise, suffer. The only other hull that you can argue Sentries are OP on is the Domi, so lets ignore that. Name one other hull that needs them nerfed or where they will be more balanced with a loss of DPS and projection? Armageddon? Nope. Rattlesnake? Nope. Stratios, Nestor, Hyperion, Mach's, and every other BS that has 100+mb bandwidth.. NOPE. Address the actual issue, don't punish everything else because you don't want to deal with the Ishtar. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, what you're doing is Nerfing Web's because of Vindi's, Neuts because of Bhaalgorns.. You're nerfing the weapon system to bring a Bonused hull in Line. It's backwards. You dialback the Bonus.. Then, and ONLY Then, if the weapons are the issue, do you look at changing the weapon. All this change does is mean the ONLY Viable Sentry Boats are Ishtars and Domi's. Without the bonuses, they are crap. Oh, and they will still be just as widely used because you can still drop them from an Ishtar, Kite away 100+km, and keep killing stuff. Congrats.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1172	Posted - 2015.05.23 23:05:01 - [380] - Quote @ james zimmer that neatly fits in with my sig of -3 slots for ALL droneboats, this should include gurista ships the dps on those ships is absurd Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using

March rabbit Federal Defense Union 1654	Posted - 2015.05.23 23:30:35 - [381] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Syn Shi wrote: So what is going to happen when the zergs move to the next ship and zerg everyone down. Nerf that ship? Any ship with enough players will seem OP.....or in an arena where ships cant fly out of range. If every group is using the same ship, that's a pretty good sign that ship is out of balance, so pretty much yes. The ideal situation is that all the groups end up using different fleets and swapping doctrines in & out regularly as enemy doctrines change to try and find the ideal counter without being countered themselves. As that indicates every ship is doing well. Will not happen. 1) skills. You cannot just take any ship and make fleet of them. You need players with skills for ship+fit. 2) fits and strategy. Not every player can make good fits and good strategies. As result most of them just take fits from killboards and strategies from videos, etc... As result you won't see lots of completely different fleets using different strategies. You can have good variability in solo or small scale but not for big fleets. The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Casivek Andrard Bloody Cross Syndicate Violent Declaration 7	Posted - 2015.05.23 23:36:49 - [382] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: Syn Shi wrote: So what is going to happen when the zergs move to the next ship and zerg everyone down. Nerf that ship? Any ship with enough players will seem OP.....or in an arena where ships cant fly out of range. If every group is using the same ship, that's a pretty good sign that ship is out of balance, so pretty much yes. The ideal situation is that all the groups end up using different fleets and swapping doctrines in & out regularly as enemy doctrines change to try and find the ideal counter without being countered themselves. As that indicates every ship is doing well. Will not happen. 1) skills. You cannot just take any ship and make fleet of them. You need players with skills for ship+fit. 2) fits and strategy. Not every player can make good fits and good strategies. As result most of them just take fits from killboards and strategies from videos, etc... As result you won't see lots of completely different fleets using different strategies. You can have good variability in solo or small scale but not for big fleets. Aka Ishtar in an N+1
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2015.05.23 23:51:18 - [383] - Quote Sniper Smith wrote: ...Also you still need to be in range to use missiles, given this is a Cruiser, we need do compare it vs Heavy/Heavy Assault missiles, and in both cases the control range alone on a hull like the Ishtar blows away the ranges a missile cruiser can put down.... Might want to check your facts. The missile HAC, the Cerberus has a longer base targeting range than the Ishtar and can shoot Faction /T1 missiles to 141km before any rigs and T2 Fury to 106km. It is not the Ishtar's fault that Heavy Missiles are what they are.
James Zimmer Furtherance. 16	Posted - 2015.05.24 06:25:31 - [384] - Quote Sniper Smith wrote: Personally I don't see the Vexor or Domi as OP.. The Ishtar is. It's in essence a Domi DPS and Projection, in a Vexor sized ship, with T2 Tank, oh and a massive range bonus so it can control drones from almost anywhere on the grid depending on the setup. It's insane. At least the other ships have compamises.. a Vexor wields weaker drones, a Domi is a slow space potato, but the Ishtar is all pro's no con's.. And rather than address it, you decide to make EVERY Ship that can field a flight of Sentries, bonused or otherwise, suffer. The only other hull that you can argue Sentries are OP on is the Domi, so lets ignore that. Name one other hull that needs them nerfed or where they will be more balanced with a loss of DPS and projection? Armageddon? Nope. Rattlesnake? Nope. Stratios, Nestor, Hyperion, Mach's, and every other BS that has 100+mb bandwidth.. NOPE. Address the actual issue, don't punish everything else because you don't want to deal with the Ishtar. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, what you're doing is Nerfing Web's because of Vindi's, Neuts because of Bhaalgorns.. You're nerfing the weapon system to bring a Bonused hull in Line. It's backwards. You dialback the Bonus.. Then, and ONLY Then, if the weapons are the issue, do you look at changing the weapon. All this change does is mean the ONLY Viable Sentry Boats are Ishtars and Domi's. Without the bonuses, they are crap. Oh, and they will still be just as widely used because you can still drop them from an Ishtar, Kite away 100+km, and keep killing stuff. Congrats. While I may disagree that the other Gallente drone boats are balanced, I do agree with the idea with nerfing the problem ship rather than the drones. I've only fought Ishtars once or twice, and in those cases, they were playing station games, so we baited and blobbed them. Their advantages couldn't really help them. I just know that when I finally train to sentries, I want them to be a valid weapon.
James Zimmer Furtherance. 16	Posted - 2015.05.24 06:56:38 - [385] - Quote Harvey James wrote: @ james zimmer that neatly fits in with my sig of -3 slots for ALL droneboats, this should include gurista ships the dps on those ships is absurd i tried too quote your post but the site won't let me do quotes atm for some reason, i keep getting server something ..... don't know if other people are having this issue, never used too happen.. I agree that drone boats need to have a significant penalty for being drone boats, and # of slots is a valid option, but I think there are multiple ways to do that. An Arbitrator is nothing to scoff at, but with 225 PG less than a Vexor and a garbage high slot weapon configuration, it is somewhat predictable and there are valid strategies against it other than bringing a more expensive ship. I would go as far to say that I don't have too much of a problem with drone boats having the highest potential damage output, just whatever ship gets that title, it needs to be a bit of a one trick pony, not the 9 effective high slot monsters that they tend to be now.
Lloyd Roses Artificial Memories 1062	Posted - 2015.05.24 11:06:58 - [386] - Quote I agree with the next tweak downwards for sentries, however: How dare you touch my ISK/hr
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1173	Posted - 2015.05.24 14:00:58 - [387] - Quote pure blasterboats should have the highest dps since the tradeoff is tiny range and uses cap too and needs tackle too be effective, droneboats ought too have lower dps in general as the tradeoffs are only destructable dps and that often isn't a viable tactic anyway. The advantage of dps projection/ undisruptable and ecm being only partially effective at best along with having lots of utility in the highs should be enough. Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 276	Posted - 2015.05.24 14:34:14 - [388] - Quote Harvey James wrote: pure blasterboats should have the highest dps since the tradeoff is tiny range and uses cap too and needs tackle too be effective, droneboats ought too have lower dps in general as the tradeoffs are only destructable dps and that often isn't a viable tactic anyway. The advantage of dps projection/ undisruptable and ecm being only partially effective at best along with having lots of utility in the highs should be enough. Dont forget the absurd fitting space the ishtar has and does not need
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 701	Posted - 2015.05.24 15:37:41 - [389] - Quote Desudes wrote: This fit does not get the numbers previously put up Bullshit. I said 60k EHP, 430 DPS at 110 + 50km - Neither Zealot nor Eagle can reach that. Sentry vs HB tracking: Tracking/Chance to hit AB shield HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/UV7IoZc.png DPS: http://i.imgur.com/GzxCLYe.png Tracking/Chance to hit MWD shield HAC target: http://i.imgur.com/84VLxdJ.png DPS: http://i.imgur.com/JgzRSH1.png Someone do the updated numbers from the OP, I'm le tired - http://www.hostile.dk/files/eve/eve-tracking101.swf // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Vacant Stare 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2015.05.24 15:48:14 - [390] - Quote Why is CCP so fixated on nerfing modules when they have 20 pages of comments telling them that the problem is a ship hull and not the weapons system?

Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 701	Posted - 2015.05.24 15:58:10 - [391] - Quote Zappity wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Um... CCP Rise wrote: First, we wanted to establish whether the problem was more about the Ishtar or more about Sentry Drones. The data makes a pretty convincing case that it really is mostly the Ishtar. While several other ships (Dominix, Navy Vexor, Archon, etc.) are making use of sentries, none of them are anywhere near as sentry reliant as the Ishtar and none of them are coming close to the overall damage that Ishtars represent on TQ. Classic. Double drone bonuses to Battleship-sized weaponry on a cruiser hull remain, though to be fair do compare base unbonused sentry range & tracking to find that they are superior to both 425mm Railguns and Tachyon Beams, hence this thread. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 701	Posted - 2015.05.24 16:38:51 - [392] - Quote Vlade Randal wrote: I think its reasonable to give sentries an overall nerf... however I agree that the Ishtar hull bonuses need to be adjusted as well. Currently the Ishtar has the following buffs: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage. Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5000m bonus to Drone operation range 5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty In addition to the proposed changes to sentry drones, I suggest that the Ishtar needs to have the following hull bonus adjusted: "5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed" I think the tracking speed bonus to sentries needs to be removed, so that the bonus is: "5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range" The issue is glaringly obvious and you have identified, but your solution is not the right one - removing Sentry Optimal range instead of Tracking would bring them in line with the ranges that other HACs operate, while retaining Medium turret-like tracking. Even without the Optimal range double bonus, the Wardens & Curators on the Ishtar or VNI would outclass both the Eagle and the Zealot in damage at those ranges. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 647	Posted - 2015.05.25 01:10:15 - [393] - Quote Vacant Stare wrote: Why is CCP so fixated on nerfing modules when they have 20 pages of comments telling them that the problem is a ship hull and not the weapons system? My theory is someone has some really good blackmail pics of ccp staff of them doing stuff on a pub crawl. The demand made: leave ishtar alone or it these pics go public. Its the only thing that makes sense. Vice you know nerfing a whole weapons system for ships not even made op by them. This make no sense....I am being guided to ishtars to run sentries. and its not subtle guiding either. Unless ccp can show evidence that my say rokh was an op beast of doom and destruction if it ran 2 sentries to warrant this nerf I will go with the blackmail option.
Dimitrios Bekas Brave Operations - Lollipop Division Brave Collective 7	Posted - 2015.05.25 03:02:11 - [394] - Quote afkalt wrote: I think you're hurting the hulls which are not bonused for them disproportionately hard compared to the bonused ones. No-one complains about a sentry geddon. The issues sit firmly in the bonused hulls, who will feel this less because of their already huge advantage over their peer group. I know you like to balance the weapons and not blame hulls but in this case, it clearly IS the hulls. ********* ********* ************* This*
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 703	Posted - 2015.05.25 03:30:32 - [395] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: Dentia Caecus wrote: These vessels do not need a nerf at the present time. Fozzie mentioned some of these vessels in his post, but where is the data to support his conclusions, empirical or otherwise. While possible, I would be surprised to learn that fleets of VNI's or Armageddons are out there destroying every fleet encountered. Is it possible? Yes. Likely? No. Are the above hulls useful for other reasons, including, but not limited to mainline pve, skirmish pvp and roles within large pvp with their respective drone bonus intact? Yes. The big offender here is the Ishtar. I happen to love the vessel but I both see and appreciate the bigger picture: Do not nerf an entire weapons system when the overwhelming problem is one *** hull.* Does the community always get it right? No, we don't. But in this instance a cacophony of voices are presenting well reasoned arguments why Fozzie and his team made a mistake. This situation is reminiscent of f the jump changes as applied to JF's. Former CCP Greyscale listened to the community, mea culpa-ed and acted accordingly. I hope Fozzie does the same. I sincerely doubt it, but I have hope. The VNI is way out of line compared to other navy cruisers, here's the number of kills for each navy cruiser in April 2015: Vexor Navy Issue: 15 770 Exequror Navy Issue: 1 734 Caracal Navy Issue: 689 Osprey Navy Issue: 695 Scythe Fleet Issue: 3 695 Stabber Fleet Issue: 3 242 Navy Omen: 9 992 Augoror Navy Issue: 5 356 So the Navy Vexor is getting nearly 23 times more kills than a Navy Caracal A 46k EHP, 550 / 584 DPS at 53+76 km / 62+16.8 km Tech 1 cruiser, yo. You can break 600 DPS with 3 DDAs. It's 850 DPS with Ogre II that can track frigates unbonused. Drone Cruisers Online // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2015.05.25 04:46:48 - [396] - Quote I don't think the Ishtar should lose Sentries.. they just shouldn't be bonused. And ideal, I'd like to see it lose the range bonus, you want range, use yours highs for Links and lows for CPU like everyone else, THEN you're making a trade.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1288	Posted - 2015.05.25 07:48:50 - [397] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: A 47k EHP, 550 / 584 DPS at 53+76 km / 62+16.8 km on a Tech 1 cruiser, yo. You can break 600 sentry DPS with 3 DDAs. It's 850 DPS with Ogre II that can track frigates unbonused. VNI isn't anywhere near as horrible as the other hulls, missing a lot of the key facets: T2 resists, drone control range, MWD sig reduction, smaller bay (bombing them is actually viable as they can only carry 1 full flight of sentries) and it even has trouble targeting that far out. The take away here is that they are very much simpler to counter than domis or ishtars, various options exist and are neither niche nor limited in their application. VNIs are kittens next to the other hulls, believe me. I've fought more ishtar balls than I care to remember and there's always some newbros in VNIs...and they are ALWAYS shot first because they pop like eggs and it wipes DPS off field quickly.
Gul Barat xX Obsidian Order Xx 0	Posted - 2015.05.25 07:56:05 - [398] - Quote Not everyone is PvPing with an Ishtar. I hate this nerf, it ruins my PvE income
Anthar Thebess 1041	Posted - 2015.05.25 07:58:56 - [399] - Quote afkalt wrote: I think you're hurting the hulls which are not bonused for them disproportionately hard compared to the bonused ones. No-one complains about a sentry geddon. The issues sit firmly in the bonused hulls, who will feel this less because of their already huge advantage over their peer group. I know you like to balance the weapons and not blame hulls but in this case, it clearly IS the hulls. Confirm this. Change the hulls finally - sentry drones are broken but only when it comes to : - Isthar - Dominix - Carrier Parially broken sentry ships that new Drone Ewar will make even more balanced: - vexor navy - Rattlesnake Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1165	Posted - 2015.05.25 10:39:41 - [400] - Quote Zan Shiro wrote: Vacant Stare wrote: Why is CCP so fixated on nerfing modules when they have 20 pages of comments telling them that the problem is a ship hull and not the weapons system? My theory is someone has some really good blackmail pics of ccp staff of them doing stuff on a pub crawl. The demand made: leave ishtar alone or it these pics go public. Its the only thing that makes sense. Vice you know nerfing a whole weapons system for ships not even made op by them. This make no sense....I am being guided to ishtars to run sentries. and its not subtle guiding either. Unless ccp can show evidence that my say rokh was an op beast of doom and destruction if it ran 2 sentries to warrant this nerf I will go with the blackmail option. I'm not interested in blackmailing CCP, I'd just like to go on the next such pub-crawl...

Basil Pupkin Why So Platypus 197	Posted - 2015.05.25 11:56:19 - [401] - Quote Just give us PvE sentries, 25x cost, 2x durability, decent PvE capability compared to other PvE fits (after the last nerf attempting to PvE with bouncers is already inferior). There is also a HUGE difference in PvE capabilities between different factions heavy drones which can also be addressed. Then I will honestly give no fucks about what you do to PvP versions. And answering the obvious question I'm going to get, if somebody decides to throw 5 drones each costing roughly a T3 destroyer hull into PvP, he deserves the performance boost. Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy. If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Derren Zelway Crazy Bird Inc. Templis CALSF 5	Posted - 2015.05.25 12:09:07 - [402] - Quote Excellent changes! This will not fix drone combat entirely but it is definitely another step in the right direction. Thank you Fozzie!
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1832	Posted - 2015.05.25 12:58:10 - [403] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: The VNI is way out of line compared to other navy cruisers, here's the number of kills for each navy cruiser in April 2015: Vexor Navy Issue: 15 770 Exequror Navy Issue: 1 734 Caracal Navy Issue: 689 Osprey Navy Issue: 695 Scythe Fleet Issue: 3 695 Stabber Fleet Issue: 3 242 Navy Omen: 9 992 Augoror Navy Issue: 5 356 So the Navy Vexor is getting nearly 23 times more kills than a Navy Caracal CCP Falcon wrote: In terms of classification based on fleet numbers, it would be something like this: CONCORD Assembly - Largest by far, in terms of numbers. Amarr Navy - Massive and sprawling, but aging quite heavily. Federation Navy - Sizeable, and very much up to date. Republic Fleet - Sizeable, maybe 70% or so the size of the Federation Navy, but less maintained. Caldari Navy - Smallest significantly, but incredibly advanced and cutting edge. There's no public data on the Jove Navy's fleet numbers, so they're not on this list. In terms of classification based on technology, fleet age and fleet performance per vessel, it would look something like this: [*} Jove Navy - We know their tech is hugely advanced, so they get top spot. CONCORD Assembly - they have the ability to keep everyone in check. Caldari Navy - The Caldari Navy's fleet is the youngest and most sophisticated. Average fleet age is less than 20 years. Federation Navy - Very advanced, relying heavily on automation. Reliable and very powerful. Amarr Navy - Aging, with a significant number of its fleet needing updates and refitting. Republic Fleet - Not in as bad shape as the worst of the Amarr Navy, but in need of a breath of fresh life in places. It's probably because we don't want to risk our relatively "young" ships...
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1291	Posted - 2015.05.25 13:32:56 - [404] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: The VNI is way out of line compared to other navy cruisers, here's the number of kills for each navy cruiser in April 2015: Vexor Navy Issue: 15 770 Exequror Navy Issue: 1 734 Caracal Navy Issue: 689 Osprey Navy Issue: 695 Scythe Fleet Issue: 3 695 Stabber Fleet Issue: 3 242 Navy Omen: 9 992 Augoror Navy Issue: 5 356 So the Navy Vexor is getting nearly 23 times more kills than a Navy Caracal CCP Falcon wrote: In terms of classification based on fleet numbers, it would be something like this: CONCORD Assembly - Largest by far, in terms of numbers. Amarr Navy - Massive and sprawling, but aging quite heavily. Federation Navy - Sizeable, and very much up to date. Republic Fleet - Sizeable, maybe 70% or so the size of the Federation Navy, but less maintained. Caldari Navy - Smallest significantly, but incredibly advanced and cutting edge. There's no public data on the Jove Navy's fleet numbers, so they're not on this list. In terms of classification based on technology, fleet age and fleet performance per vessel, it would look something like this: [*} Jove Navy - We know their tech is hugely advanced, so they get top spot. CONCORD Assembly - they have the ability to keep everyone in check. Caldari Navy - The Caldari Navy's fleet is the youngest and most sophisticated. Average fleet age is less than 20 years. Federation Navy - Very advanced, relying heavily on automation. Reliable and very powerful. Amarr Navy - Aging, with a significant number of its fleet needing updates and refitting. Republic Fleet - Not in as bad shape as the worst of the Amarr Navy, but in need of a breath of fresh life in places. It's probably because we don't want to risk our relatively "young" ships... Procurers probably get more kills than navy caracals.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 704	Posted - 2015.05.25 15:04:26 - [405] - Quote afkalt wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: A 47k EHP, 550 / 584 DPS at 53+76 km / 62+16.8 km on a Tech 1 cruiser, yo. You can break 600 sentry DPS with 3 DDAs. It's 850 DPS with Ogre II that can track frigates unbonused. VNI isn't anywhere near as horrible as the other hulls, missing a lot of the key facets: T2 resists, drone control range, MWD sig reduction, smaller bay (bombing them is actually viable as they can only carry 1 full flight of sentries) and it even has trouble targeting that far out. Cool story. Only that it was being compared to other Faction Tech 1 hulls - they are out of proportion and frankly OP. When Drone Damage Amplifiers were introduced, the 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints & damage bonus on all the droneboats at that time wasn't changed to reflect the new reality - a very, very grave oversight with the consequences being plain to see. Drones were already a formidable weapons system before DDAs due to the 10% per level hull bonus and built-in base attributes. The 850 DPS Ogres may be balanced on a Battleship hull, but on a cruiser with 125 MB drone bandwidth it is retardo levels. CCP? // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1292	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:28:36 - [406] - Quote Is it? I can get 940 out of an ENI and it's not like the VNI can carry alternate drones.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:36:57 - [407] - Quote It's 928 DPS with Neutron Blasters and 4x Magstabs plus 5 Hobgoblins II - with the usual disadvantages that the blaster ships have to endure. The VNI is 934 DPS with Ogres if you use two Neutron Blasters. Gallente having two of these boats is not a very balanced situation - one of them is being able to project 600 DPS to HAC & Battleship ranges. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1292	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:46:11 - [408] - Quote It's 940 with heat. I used a workable fit
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:50:23 - [409] - Quote With heat it's 1053 DPS, Quote: [Exequror Navy Issue] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II 10MN Microwarpdrive II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Hobgoblin II x5 Fifty CPU short, but is rectifiable. Almost matches the VNI in EHP - 40k. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1832	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:00:13 - [410] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: With heat it's 1053 DPS, Quote: [Exequror Navy Issue] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II 10MN Microwarpdrive II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Hobgoblin II x5 Fifty CPU short, but is rectifiable. Almost matches the VNI in EHP - 40k. 50 on a hull that start out with 425 is not that easy... Genolution + 6% implant is not enough...

Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:04:49 - [411] - Quote The RF LSEs are going to be 40 CPU, so that's -12 CPU already, faction Magstabs reduce it by 10 each, CN Invul by another 17 tf. I do agree - not easy, just like I said with regards to blasterboats, not to mention tackle, which in the case of VNI/Ishtars can only consist of a few dictors. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1292	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:06:34 - [412] - Quote I prefer this, better application [Exequror Navy Issue, Blasters] Damage Control II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator II Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Warrior II x5 50 CPU is a bunch short though. Anyway, it's not that much of an outlier, heavys aren't all that fabulous off paper.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:11:46 - [413] - Quote Indeed, to make it fit w/out implants or faction of any kind, one can swap out for Ions in my fit, you can remove the RCU and Ancil rigs, get a Co-Proc II in, change CDFE IIs to tech Tech 1 and fit a Burst Aerator II rig = 1050 DPS heated and 38k EHP. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1832	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:16:14 - [414] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: The RF LSEs are going to be 40 CPU, so that's -12 CPU already, faction Magstabs reduce it by 10 each, CN Invul by another 17 tf. I do agree - not easy, just like I said with regards to blasterboats, not to mention tackle, which in the case of VNI/Ishtars can consist only of a few dictors. At that point, you jump in an Ishtar insetad of putting faction mods on a faction cruiser unless you absolutely need to be in a T1 hull...
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:17:43 - [415] - Quote Exactly. If not work -> Goto Ishtar If battleship explode -> Goto Ishtar If HAC can't do 450 DPS at 100 km -> Goto Ishtar Though the comparison was between Faction Tech 1 cruisers and their relative utility - a Nomen can reach 100km, but with 260 DPS, so the VNI competes with BATTLESHIPS. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1292	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:31:49 - [416] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Exactly. If not work -> Goto Ishtar If battleship explode -> Goto Ishtar If HAC can't do 450 DPS at 100 km -> Goto Ishtar Though the comparison was between Faction Tech 1 cruisers and their relative utility - a Nomen can reach 100km, but with 260 DPS, so the VNI competes with BATTLESHIPS. VNI cant even lock that far. You're too focused on the big eft numbers tbh, the reality is different.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:37:41 - [417] - Quote It's sufficient for medium engagements and with 1 Singlar Amplifier II you can get 87 km lock range, which would be the sweet spot for your 620 DPS Bouncers, though the dronebay is limited for sentry spam. The 125 MB bandwidth on a cruiser hull is broken any way you look at it, and Sabriz posted the single best idea in the whole thread, Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Also remember the nuclear option on sentries if needed - making heavies 20mb/s bandwidth, sentries 30mb/s, and then making the Ishtar and VNI both 100mb/s while battleship droneboats get 120 or 150mb/s as appropriate to the hull. If this patch PLUS a recalibration of the Ishtar hull don't solve the problem, bring out that nuclear option. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1292	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:12:18 - [418] - Quote That's a terrible idea. All the battleships balanced at 100mb (Mach, bhaal, phoon spring to mind) get another heavy, the drone ships can spit out an extra gecko. It also ignores the command ships. How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:19:40 - [419] - Quote afkalt wrote: That's a terrible idea. All the battleships balanced at 100mb (Mach, bhaal, phoon spring to mind) get another heavy, the drone ships can spit out an extra gecko. Changing drone bandwidth would require the review of all the hulls, yes. This is why I mentioned the second solution, which is cruisers at 50 MB, Ishtar & VNI at 75, Battlecruisers at 75-100, which they actually are at right now. You can make a Vexor do more DPS than an Arbi with the same bandwidth for both by differentiating them via the hull damage bonus. Quote: How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage. It doesn't fix anything, the engagements will just become medium range with DLAs neglected, or with just one fitted on Ishtars. Even without an Optimal range bonus to sentries, the Ishtard would outclass all HACs in range and damage. So the issue is more fundamental than most like to present. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 745	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:22:16 - [420] - Quote afkalt wrote: That's a terrible idea. All the battleships balanced at 100mb (Mach, bhaal, phoon spring to mind) get another heavy, the drone ships can spit out an extra gecko. It also ignores the command ships. How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage. Or to a mid. then you have to pick range or application or tackle or shield tank or range control. Either one is a boom headshot sorta fix that deals a body blow to the huge DPS at insane ranges with insane dps relative to the tradeoffs made. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp

Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:24:03 - [421] - Quote Mid would be a better option, but Ishtars as is would still compete with Battleships, not HACs. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 745	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:24:34 - [422] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Quote: How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage. It doesn't fix anything, the engagements will just become medium range with DLAs neglected, or with just one fitted on Ishtars. Even without an Optimal range bonus to sentries, the Ishtard would outclass all HACs in range and damage. So the issue is more fundamental than most like to present. Still a major blow to the combo of ranges, and means that ishtars and similar can have their slots pruned and fitting room re-adjusted appropriately more easily to prevent them from getting full damage with full application and range with oversized prop and plate. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:26:18 - [423] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Quote: How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage. It doesn't fix anything, the engagements will just become medium range with DLAs neglected, or with just one fitted on Ishtars. Even without an Optimal range bonus to sentries, the Ishtard would outclass all HACs in range and damage. So the issue is more fundamental than most like to present. Still a major blow to the combo of ranges, and means that ishtars and similar can have their slots pruned and fitting room re-adjusted appropriately more easily to prevent them from getting full damage with full application and range with oversized prop and plate. There can be a gentleman's agreement not to fit DLAs with the same cancerous Ishtar fleets - it can develop naturally. The issue at hand is Battleship weaponry on a cruiser hull. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 745	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:26:28 - [424] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Mid would be a better option, but Ishtars as is would still compete with Battleships, not HACs. Oh yeah, it's a headshot.... against a cyborg zombie abomination of a ship. Sentry nerfs, like this, along with a fitting room trim, and much more midslot pressure, would mean that a good ishtar doctrine punches up.... in one style of engagement, but is easily countered in most others. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:28:44 - [425] - Quote Still doesn't rectify the fact that the Zealot or the Eagle can't do 450 DPS at 130 km. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 745	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:32:07 - [426] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Still doesn't rectify the fact that the Zealot or the Eagle can't do 450 DPS at 130 km. I still think the eagle is an attempt at giving the caldari a blaster brawler to compete with the diemost. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:33:31 - [427] - Quote The Eagles were actually employed in fleet warfare, just like the Zealots. Tengu is the latest iteration of that. September, 2013 - Odyssey 1.1 Never Forget. P.S. What's a Muninn? ( -í~ -£-û -í-¦) // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 745	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:36:11 - [428] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: P.S. What's a Munnin? ( -í~ -£-û -í-¦) Them feels bro. I want a Munnin that competes in the role it so obviously was made for, not one overshadowed by the broadsword at being an arty HAC Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:40:23 - [429] - Quote More distribution towards other HACs can be achieved by fixing the Ishtar, because this is not funny - http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Data from Pre-Scylla via Rise's blog. An alternate version can be found in my signature, and the original elsewhere - it hides the truth. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1292	Posted - 2015.05.25 21:41:27 - [430] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Mid would be a better option, but Ishtars as is would still compete with Battleships, not HACs. Oh yeah, it's a headshot.... against a cyborg zombie abomination of a ship. Sentry nerfs, like this, along with a fitting room trim, and much more midslot pressure, would mean that a good ishtar doctrine punches up.... in one style of engagement, but is easily countered in most others. It needs to be low to fight with DDA and fitting mods. Also to fight for Armor tank (domi pain, going shield makes bombs far more dangerous). Also because the mid omni is the best sniping option so it's not really reasonable to make it compete with another range mod. The battleship snipers, for example Apocs, would really run over the ishtars with such a configuration. Napocs could actually do it before, this would just make it really dominant.

Nasar Vyron S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS. 66	Posted - 2015.05.25 22:30:32 - [431] - Quote afkalt wrote: [quote=James Baboli] The battleship snipers, for example Apocs, would really run over the ishtars with such a configuration. Napocs could actually do it before, this would just make it really dominant. Uhh, you know full well that Apocs are a BS, they are supposed to **** on cruisers. It's frigates they are supposed to struggle with... This problem will continue until something resembling the following is implemented or until sentries are nerfed to the point where sentries return to being useless. Ishtar's need to: 1) Have their bandwidth reduced to 75 2) Role bonus changed such that their drone damage and health is increased by 66% 3) Cruiser per level bonuses effect Drone max velocity and tracking, and hybrid weapon tracking 4) HAC per level bonuses effect Drone optimal range and hybrid weapon optimal range 5) Drone bay reduced to 200 (2 flights of heavies/sentries and 1 flight of mediums under new stats) Sentries need: 1) ~20km control range to prevent over use of this battleship level sniping platform in kiting doctrines Dominix (and only Dominix) would then need: 1) Role bonus of 500% increase to sentry drone control range Ishtar pilots can now chose between a kite/brawl set up with blasters/rails and mobile drones -or- a full sniping fit with sentries and rails. Those that went through and mathed it already would also see that this is a damage increase when using any light or medium drone over the current Ishtar. This would be a buff to the base stats of a brawling Ishtar, while nerfing the current shoot-you-at-100 while kiting fits we currently see. The control range on sentries is seriously something that should have been implemented with their launch as a stationary weapons platform. The ability to kite players into their optimal in a fast cruiser hull is why they became a problem in the first place. This is simply needed to bring the use of such a platform in line with other slow/long range platforms.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 35	Posted - 2015.05.25 23:23:19 - [432] - Quote EDIT: Removed Post
Christopher Mabata The Interstellar Manipulation Consortium 326	Posted - 2015.05.25 23:47:47 - [433] - Quote Ran the math on this My Ishtar puts out (rounded down) 500 DPS with Curators alone an additional 150-200 with blasters So i lose 15.50 DPS off this change for a total of 484.5DPS with JUST my curators I lose 13% of my tracking as well. The problem here is my fit has room to neutralize those changes either through rigging or additional mods to maintain the same stats I am now after a very quick refit and a little bit of ISK investment. Yes sentry drones are a bit crazy now, but if we nerf them we hurt other ships too. We nerf the hulls to hard, nobody flys it and people move on to the next flavor in line which then gets nerfed too. Perhaps what we should be doing is taking the time to bring the other hulls UP to compare with the Ishtar ( for example ) rather than trying to bring down a bunch of hulls all at once. Theory-Crafter, Free Agent, Immortal Space Pirate. Generally Crazy and difficult to understand at times.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 748	Posted - 2015.05.25 23:57:13 - [434] - Quote Christopher Mabata wrote: Ran the math on this My Ishtar puts out (rounded down) 500 DPS with Curators alone an additional 150-200 with blasters So i lose 15.50 DPS off this change for a total of 484.5DPS with JUST my curators I lose 13% of my tracking as well. The problem here is my fit has room to neutralize those changes either through rigging or additional mods to maintain the same stats I am now after a very quick refit and a little bit of ISK investment. Yes sentry drones are a bit crazy now, but if we nerf them we hurt other ships too. We nerf the hulls to hard, nobody flys it and people move on to the next flavor in line which then gets nerfed too. Perhaps what we should be doing is taking the time to bring the other hulls UP to compare with the Ishtar ( for example ) rather than trying to bring down a bunch of hulls all at once. This way lays powercreep. It is simpler to keep a relative power level by hammering the high points, and filling in the depressions. If CCP makes the high points depressed, they should eventually get around to filling them back in up to par. So the question for if sentries and thus ships using sentries are out of balance is largely now, what are they compared to? Are they supposed to be comparable to large turrets, in either the long range or short range categories? Are they supposed to compare to medium turrets, seeing as after all, they're accessible to cruisers? Are they balanced against some arbitrary set of numbers somewhere, or actual performance? Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery Prolapse. 2360	Posted - 2015.05.26 00:20:34 - [435] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas. Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! We use Bouncers in our ratting C4 doctrine with Cruise Typhoons as they can project damage plenty fine. might have to switch to Wardens. /wrists I suppose +1 for nerfing tracking n these things finally Went out to nullsec in a Garmur, tackled two ratting ishtars who were using Curator II's. I was kiting them at 30km @ 4.4km/s and they were hitting me just fine. The problem is NOT the drones, although the tracking nerfs above will certainly help, it is the doctrines. And you know what maketh the doctrines people are using? That's right, the drone tracking modules and damage modules and control range modules you put in the game. Adjust them a bit as well. Because if you can't even kite a sentry ishtar at 25km in the game's most ridiculous frigate, something's a bit stupid. Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Christopher Mabata The Interstellar Manipulation Consortium 326	Posted - 2015.05.26 02:14:53 - [436] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Christopher Mabata wrote: Ran the math on this My Ishtar puts out (rounded down) 500 DPS with Curators alone an additional 150-200 with blasters So i lose 15.50 DPS off this change for a total of 484.5DPS with JUST my curators I lose 13% of my tracking as well. The problem here is my fit has room to neutralize those changes either through rigging or additional mods to maintain the same stats I am now after a very quick refit and a little bit of ISK investment. Yes sentry drones are a bit crazy now, but if we nerf them we hurt other ships too. We nerf the hulls to hard, nobody flys it and people move on to the next flavor in line which then gets nerfed too. Perhaps what we should be doing is taking the time to bring the other hulls UP to compare with the Ishtar ( for example ) rather than trying to bring down a bunch of hulls all at once. This way lays powercreep. It is simpler to keep a relative power level by hammering the high points, and filling in the depressions. If CCP makes the high points depressed, they should eventually get around to filling them back in up to par. So the question for if sentries and thus ships using sentries are out of balance is largely now, what are they compared to? Are they supposed to be comparable to large turrets, in either the long range or short range categories? Are they supposed to compare to medium turrets, seeing as after all, they're accessible to cruisers? Are they balanced against some arbitrary set of numbers somewhere, or actual performance? Excellent question, as i have never thought of anything to compare sentry drones to, they are readily accessible to many cruisers be it an ishtar, stratios, vexor navy issue, prophecy, or arbitrator. But they put out battleship DPS despite this, perhaps heavy drones are what they compare to, except they just dont worry about flight time and all the impact mechanics involved in that as well. Theory-Crafter, Free Agent, Immortal Space Pirate. Generally Crazy and difficult to understand at times.
Nasar Vyron S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS. 66	Posted - 2015.05.26 02:18:28 - [437] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: I see this as interesting, with some potential, though I disagree on 2 suggestions. 1) The drone bay. No reason not to leave it capable of 3 sets of the Heavy/Sentry. 225m3, keeps the choices and spares. 2) Control range. No need to change. If a ship opts to use sentries for long range sniping they will be out of rail range and lose that DPS. If they opt to stay in rail range, control range does not matter. Plus as far as I can tell, Drone Control Range is a pilot stat not drone. So this would have to be reworked to accomplish your ends and it is an unnecessary addition of complexity to start with. Thanks a lot for taking the time to grab the actual numbers. I was running numbers on paper so had a few numbers off actually with my math. I would agree with your suggestion of increasing the drone bay to 225, I was honestly thinking 2 flights plus back up. But you make a very good point of why 3 flights should be allowed. As for your second point, I can see the problem here. I could have sworn they reached out further, so maybe a larger optimal range bonus in in order. I also agree it does do a number on the train time to get to perfect operation. However, the increased training should pay off in spades for those who can fly it optimally, while not being overbearingly so as medium weapon systems are not horribly long train times. As for the control range currently you are 100% correct, control range is currently decided by the drone's base range+skills to decide how far out from you/your drones is to it's intended target you can issue orders to attack. I effectually want that aspect removed from sentries such that sentries have a set targeting range (their optimal+falloff) and their control range be based on possibly the sentry skill itself, something along the lines of 4km per level. Numbers of course being debatable. And to reiterate, this doesn't effect their current functionality in the slightest to ECM/damps since to issue the attack command the pilot must still have the target lock, all that changes is their leash range to the sentries.
ashley Eoner 476	Posted - 2015.05.26 03:32:56 - [438] - Quote So the much vaunted teiricide is slowly being rolled back one ship and weapons system at a time... I don't find the drones tracking to be out of line when compared to similar bonuses turret hulls.
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 845	Posted - 2015.05.26 03:48:52 - [439] - Quote Since CCP is so convinced that the sentries are the problem and not the Ishtar, this has me wondering. What other sentry platform is overpowered? The Dominix? The reason we use it is because it requires far fewer fitting skills than virtually any other battleship doctrine. You want to fix that hull, you reduce its CPU and PG. The Eos? MAYBE. It's pretty balanced though, mostly due to the fact that it has much higher training requirements than the Ishtar, and its much more limited mobility in comparison. If you nerf the Ishtar this might emerge as the next favored ship, but it probably wouldn't. The Armageddon? Nah, it's just fine. If anything it could use a bit of a boost. The Nestor? No, that ship is a joke. Sentries don't really make it any better. The Rattlesnake? It's a pretty powerful ship, but it's pretty on par with the rest of the pirate battleships. If anything it needs a bit of a boost. The Stratios? Pretty balanced. It sees less PVP use than other pirate cruisers, but it has a decent amount of exploration utility. The Vexor/VNI? Powerful as far as T1 or Navy faction cruisers go, but still fairly balanced. As a gank boat the Vexor sees some utility, but otherwise its use is pretty even with other cruisers. Carriers? You can nerf sentries into the ground, it really isn't going to make much of a difference to how much these get used. The only problem is the Ishtar. The only nerf that needs to happen is to the Ishtar. Sentries themselves are fine.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 994	Posted - 2015.05.26 03:57:41 - [440] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas. Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! We use Bouncers in our ratting C4 doctrine with Cruise Typhoons as they can project damage plenty fine. might have to switch to Wardens. /wrists I suppose +1 for nerfing tracking n these things finally Went out to nullsec in a Garmur, tackled two ratting ishtars who were using Curator II's. I was kiting them at 30km @ 4.4km/s and they were hitting me just fine. The problem is NOT the drones, although the tracking nerfs above will certainly help, it is the doctrines. And you know what maketh the doctrines people are using? That's right, the drone tracking modules and damage modules and control range modules you put in the game. Adjust them a bit as well. Because if you can't even kite a sentry ishtar at 25km in the game's most ridiculous frigate, something's a bit stupid. I am just curious, were these two Ishtars sitting side-by-side? Were they stationary? Were they right next to their sentry drones? Because if they were at all sensible, they would have burned away from the sentry drones a fair distance, which would significantly lower your transversal vis-a-vis the sentry drones. The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.

Bl1SkR1N Euphoria Released Triumvirate. 71	Posted - 2015.05.26 06:46:22 - [441] - Quote I remember days when there were no sentry drones in fleet warfare and those days were pretty good.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1292	Posted - 2015.05.26 07:28:30 - [442] - Quote Nasar Vyron wrote: afkalt wrote: The battleship snipers, for example Apocs, would really run over the ishtars with such a configuration. Napocs could actually do it before, this would just make it really dominant. Uhh, you know full well that Apocs are a BS, they are supposed to **** on cruisers. It's frigates they are supposed to struggle with... No, that's why we have battlecruisers! The rest of the notions destroy the ships I'm afraid. Hell even my idea to punt the DLA to a low is overly harsh in the light of day.
Gauro Charante Vile Duck Pond 10	Posted - 2015.05.26 09:31:02 - [443] - Quote Been reading these forums alot about them drones. I'm a drone user so it's nice to know whats going on with them. These changes wont really bother me, the way i use them they are still waaayy too good (imho). Here are some ideas I've seen and tought about: 1. Just drop that HUGE hp pool those sentrys have. Why do they have that much HP? 30-50% less HP staight off might give them big fights a scare when sentrys cracks like eggs around them. For PvE that HP is useless anyways couse I have never seen NPC to get a good shot at them when I sit 50+km from the enemy with my drones 2. Give Heavys a good boost in HP and drop that Bandwith to 20. 10-20% more hp and they could take a beating and even maybe scary for some. 3. Cruisers can't get more than 100 MB bandwith, thus dropping those 5 sentry boats from the pic but 5 heavys are still in use. Also many other ships bandwith prolly would have to change acordingly.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.05.26 11:03:10 - [444] - Quote @ gauro 1) there are man situations in pve where even the navy sentries cannot hold the aggro longer than 10sec. 3) this already happened with the last dmg-reduction.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.05.26 11:08:20 - [445] - Quote @ gauro 1) there are man situations in pve where even the navy sentries cannot hold the aggro longer than 10sec. For example blond Rainer de 6/10 or 'besiged ....' sites. I'm not telling the HPs don't deserve a reduction. Just: the hps are useful in pve. 3) this already happened with the last dmg-reduction.
DEFANDER Jenny from the block 9	Posted - 2015.05.26 13:29:18 - [446] - Quote I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. And i agree, there are "other forces" at work here. Pulling the rains.
Casivek Andrard Bloody Cross Syndicate Violent Declaration 7	Posted - 2015.05.26 14:51:33 - [447] - Quote DEFANDER wrote: I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. And i agree, there are "other forces" at work here. Pulling the rains. If by other forces you mean the null bears crying at ccp to not balance the ship as they are a bunch of lazy f1 monkeys then sure you are right

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 12888	Posted - 2015.05.26 15:06:36 - [448] - Quote DEFANDER wrote: I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/

FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 997	Posted - 2015.05.26 15:23:38 - [449] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: DEFANDER wrote: I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Well, then, we look forward to more substantive responses! It is good to see you are still following the threads. Shame that it takes a snarky post to get you to reveal your presence. The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1836	Posted - 2015.05.26 15:41:15 - [450] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: DEFANDER wrote: I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. Well, then, we look forward to more substantive responses! It is good to see you are still following the threads. Shame that it takes a snarky post to get you to reveal your presence. That's because too many people take for granted that no post = no reading at all. That's the sad part about this forum section.

James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 762	Posted - 2015.05.26 15:43:37 - [451] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: DEFANDER wrote: I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question. What are sentries balanced against? Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1837	Posted - 2015.05.26 15:52:15 - [452] - Quote James Baboli wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: DEFANDER wrote: I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question. What are sentries balanced against? Maybe we would understand what they are trying to achieve if we knew where they think they should be balance wise... EDIT: It's a Pandora box if they open it tho. Most game devs who ever make point like that turns out hating them self for it later on...
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 36	Posted - 2015.05.26 16:08:00 - [453] - Quote Nasar Vyron wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: I see this as interesting, with some potential, though I disagree on 2 suggestions. 1) The drone bay. No reason not to leave it capable of 3 sets of the Heavy/Sentry. 225m3, keeps the choices and spares. 2) Control range. No need to change. If a ship opts to use sentries for long range sniping they will be out of rail range and lose that DPS. If they opt to stay in rail range, control range does not matter. Plus as far as I can tell, Drone Control Range is a pilot stat not drone. So this would have to be reworked to accomplish your ends and it is an unnecessary addition of complexity to start with. Thanks a lot for taking the time to grab the actual numbers. I was running numbers on paper so had a few numbers off actually with my math. I would agree with your suggestion of increasing the drone bay to 225, I was honestly thinking 2 flights plus back up. But you make a very good point of why 3 flights should be allowed. As for your second point, I can see the problem here. I could have sworn they reached out further, so maybe a larger optimal range bonus in in order. I also agree it does do a number on the train time to get to perfect operation. However, the increased training should pay off in spades for those who can fly it optimally, while not being overbearingly so as medium weapon systems are not horribly long train times. As for the control range currently you are 100% correct, control range is currently decided by the drone's base range+skills to decide how far out from you/your drones is to it's intended target you can issue orders to attack. I effectually want that aspect removed from sentries such that sentries have a set targeting range (their optimal+falloff) and their control range be based on possibly the sentry skill itself, something along the lines of 4km per level. Numbers of course being debatable. And to reiterate, this doesn't effect their current functionality in the slightest to ECM/damps since to issue the attack command the pilot must still have the target lock, all that changes is their leash range to the sentries. My beef with control range limits is for everyone that does not use it in an abusive way. When I would run missions in my Dominix I would snipe from 100+ KM; with my imperfect skills I would have to use 3-4 DLAs and a SeBo with range script. Ishtar pilots basically get 1 free DLA which allows them to engage drones from a reasonable base distance for the design of the hull. Control range only helps engage a target, it does not help hit or apply the damage, it simply allows the pilot to say shoot and the drone shoots. The drone is still limited by its optimal/falloff and tracking like any other weapon, if the target is out of the drones range the drone will miss 100% regardless of the control range. So other than certain kiting tactics, I don't see control range as a real problem. And I don't think a system should be balanced around one line of tactics, unless it is clearly exploitable.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 764	Posted - 2015.05.26 16:19:15 - [454] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: James Baboli wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: DEFANDER wrote: I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question. What are sentries balanced against? Maybe we would understand what they are trying to achieve if we knew where they think they should be balance wise... EDIT: It's a Pandora box if they open it tho. Most game devs who ever make point like that turns out hating them self for it later on... Heck, all they need to do is say they are a long range or short range or mid range weapon in the small, medium or large class, and then the inherent range between all of those things (and the extreme range of power for them in most cases) makes it easy to argue they are or aren't balanced either way, as stuff is going to be on either side of it, almost regardless of which class they put it in. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Fredric Wolf Black Sheep Down Tactical Narcotics Team 93	Posted - 2015.05.26 16:20:41 - [455] - Quote I still think the best way to fix / solve the problem with sentry on cruisers is to branch out to 3 sizes of sentry.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 36	Posted - 2015.05.26 16:42:29 - [456] - Quote Fredric Wolf wrote: I still think the best way to fix / solve the problem with sentry on cruisers is to branch out to 3 sizes of sentry. I'd be happy with 2 sizes. Frigates and destroyers normally engage from a range where small/med drone speeds are sufficient and mobility is preferred. I'd hate for them to create another class of drones that was seldom used. But perhaps they would be used more than I think once available and people go and get creative with their tactics.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 36	Posted - 2015.05.26 16:44:27 - [457] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: James Baboli wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: DEFANDER wrote: I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question. What are sentries balanced against? Maybe we would understand what they are trying to achieve if we knew where they think they should be balance wise... EDIT: It's a Pandora box if they open it tho. Most game devs who ever make point like that turns out hating them self for it later on... Heck, all they need to do is say they are a long range or short range or mid range weapon in the small, medium or large class, and then the inherent range between all of those things (and the extreme range of power for them in most cases) makes it easy to argue they are or aren't balanced either way, as stuff is going to be on either side of it, almost regardless of which class they put it in. I think the issue is that they don't compare, they are unique. So fueling are need to compare them to other systems would not be in their interests.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1837	Posted - 2015.05.26 17:09:37 - [458] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: James Baboli wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: DEFANDER wrote: I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question. What are sentries balanced against? Maybe we would understand what they are trying to achieve if we knew where they think they should be balance wise... EDIT: It's a Pandora box if they open it tho. Most game devs who ever make point like that turns out hating them self for it later on... Heck, all they need to do is say they are a long range or short range or mid range weapon in the small, medium or large class, and then the inherent range between all of those things (and the extreme range of power for them in most cases) makes it easy to argue they are or aren't balanced either way, as stuff is going to be on either side of it, almost regardless of which class they put it in. Where would you slot a weapon that while in space can "refit" from short range good tracking to long range bad tracking? It's like sporting pulse and rails on the same boat or something akin to that. A blaster boat can maybe double it's range by swapping ammo. I'm pretty sure a sentry setup can make a greater jump than that but at the same time, it's "ammo" can be shot down. All of that lead to a position where they are pretty much unique and not fitting into any well defined box.
Fredric Wolf Black Sheep Down Tactical Narcotics Team 93	Posted - 2015.05.26 18:10:29 - [459] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: Fredric Wolf wrote: I still think the best way to fix / solve the problem with sentry on cruisers is to branch out to 3 sizes of sentry. I'd be happy with 2 sizes. Frigates and destroyers normally engage from a range where small/med drone speeds are sufficient and mobility is preferred. I'd hate for them to create another class of drones that was seldom used. But perhaps they would be used more than I think once available and people go and get creative with their tactics. I would think an Ishkur fleet set up at a gate with small sentry drones would be a pretty daunting thing
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1837	Posted - 2015.05.26 18:33:03 - [460] - Quote Fredric Wolf wrote: Terra Chrall wrote: Fredric Wolf wrote: I still think the best way to fix / solve the problem with sentry on cruisers is to branch out to 3 sizes of sentry. I'd be happy with 2 sizes. Frigates and destroyers normally engage from a range where small/med drone speeds are sufficient and mobility is preferred. I'd hate for them to create another class of drones that was seldom used. But perhaps they would be used more than I think once available and people go and get creative with their tactics. I would think an Ishkur fleet set up at a gate with small sentry drones would be a pretty daunting thing There isn't much point to use a lower dps immobile drone when the mobile ones are as fast as lights...

Therisa Workroun School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.05.26 18:56:31 - [461] - Quote My prefered option would have been to limit 'assigned drone' controls based on a new skillbook, that way Fleet Commanders would have to invest points into assigned drone control, but would still face an upper limit to the number of drones they could control. If you can field 40 fleet members, that would be 200 maximum drones (400 maximum fighters / drones if supercapital fleet). If you could only train to a maximum of 75 assigned drones, the number of fleet members cannot be the same, or there need to be multiple 'drone commanders' each with max skills, that could also be more easily jammed as Sensor boosting would need to be spread more evenly between the drone commanders than just making one imba sebo remsebo ship that has a million dps with everyone's drones. Ofcourse, the way this would affect a lag free voice comms fleet is rather limited, perhaps a solution involving fleet members diminishing bandwidth to stay in fleet?
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 280	Posted - 2015.05.26 18:58:16 - [462] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: James Baboli wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: DEFANDER wrote: I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question. What are sentries balanced against? Maybe we would understand what they are trying to achieve if we knew where they think they should be balance wise... EDIT: It's a Pandora box if they open it tho. Most game devs who ever make point like that turns out hating them self for it later on... Obfuscation is a powerful ally when dealing with group of angry people.
Nasar Vyron S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS. 66	Posted - 2015.05.26 19:03:18 - [463] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: My beef with control range limits is for everyone that does not use it in an abusive way. When I would run missions in my Dominix I would snipe from 100+ KM; with my imperfect skills I would have to use 3-4 DLAs and a SeBo with range script. Ishtar pilots basically get 1 free DLA which allows them to engage drones from a reasonable base distance for the design of the hull. Control range only helps engage a target, it does not help hit or apply the damage, it simply allows the pilot to say shoot and the drone shoots. The drone is still limited by its optimal/falloff and tracking like any other weapon, if the target is out of the drones range the drone will miss 100% regardless of the control range. So other than certain kiting tactics, I don't see control range as a real problem. And I don't think a system should be balanced around one line of tactics, unless it is clearly exploitable. Control range isn't really a problem for other ships because they can't really be compared to the constant kite ability of the Ishtar or VNI which is what allows them to subvert the negative effects of using a stationary sniping platform. Other's can do it, and if the problem isn't rectified they will simply become the next FOTM and more blame to be pinned on the damage application of sentries. The Domi as you pointed out is an example of a ship that is typically used for PVE who also makes use of it's drones/sentries as a slow tanky BS, another example would be the rattlesnake. Both of which typically use geckos/heavies while on the move, then drop sentries once they reach a gate. They rarely drop sentries and continue moving as they would then have to return to them to pick them up. The exception being (typically for domi players) to drop their sentries, MJD away, kill their targets, then MJD back to scoop. Never really moving outside of a 120km range. Which is why I included the change for the domi in my initial post to give them a bonus to the new sentry control range. This also frees up high slots for sentry focused players as they no longer require a DLA at all, as they would only effect normal drones and not sentries. Domi's in PVP typically will use neut highs and sit in their drone ball, forcing enemy players to make a decision or staying within sentry optimal, or go in for a brawl, or warp out. Their MJD is held specifically to escape bad situations and less for offensive re-positioning. The few rattlesnake doctrines that exist follow the exact same idea. So altering the control range doesn't really effect the game as much as you would think, but really only the ships that already abuse the system. Again tho, if you can think of an alternative by all means. This is just what seems to work out optimally on paper.
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 846	Posted - 2015.05.26 19:13:37 - [464] - Quote Therisa Workroun wrote: My prefered option would have been to limit 'assigned drone' controls based on a new skillbook, that way Fleet Commanders would have to invest points into assigned drone control, but would still face an upper limit to the number of drones they could control. If you can field 40 fleet members, that would be 200 maximum drones (400 maximum fighters / drones if supercapital fleet). If you could only train to a maximum of 75 assigned drones, the number of fleet members cannot be the same, or there need to be multiple 'drone commanders' each with max skills, that could also be more easily jammed as Sensor boosting would need to be spread more evenly between the drone commanders than just making one imba sebo remsebo ship that has a million dps with everyone's drones. Ofcourse, the way this would affect a lag free voice comms fleet is rather limited, perhaps a solution involving fleet members diminishing bandwidth to stay in fleet? What are you talking about? Drone assist was fixed last year. A given fleet member can only control a maximum of 50 drones at a time, and fighters and fighter-bombers can't be assigned at all. Drone assist has nothing to do with this.
Frank Padecain VR Securities 5	Posted - 2015.05.26 19:59:47 - [465] - Quote It seems to me that larger ships such as the Domi, Rattler, and carriers use sentries as they are intended: while sitting still/orbiting at 500m. Would changing the drone control range specific to sentries, therefore not affecting any other drone classes, be a better balance than introducing new sentry drone sizes? The larger drone platform ships wouldn't suffer too much, they would still be stationary, but ships like the VNI and Ishtar would also have to remain stationary with their sentries, leaving them vulnerable to bomber fleets and making them easier to catch/neutralize their damage output. Does this make sense? The Ishtar and VNI would still be viable, but would be flown as more of a kiting/skirmishing ship, allowing other HACs to get more love.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1837	Posted - 2015.05.26 20:22:21 - [466] - Quote Frank Padecain wrote: It seems to me that larger ships such as the Domi, Rattler, and carriers use sentries as they are intended: while sitting still/orbiting at 500m. Would changing the drone control range specific to sentries, therefore not affecting any other drone classes, be a better balance than introducing new sentry drone sizes? The larger drone platform ships wouldn't suffer too much, they would still be stationary, but ships like the VNI and Ishtar would also have to remain stationary with their sentries, leaving them vulnerable to bomber fleets and making them easier to catch/neutralize their damage output. Does this make sense? The Ishtar and VNI would still be viable, but would be flown as more of a kiting/skirmishing ship, allowing other HACs to get more love. Do you think the somewhat better resistance to E-WAR from drone cruiser is important enough to force them to nail themself down in space to shoot?
Frank Padecain VR Securities 5	Posted - 2015.05.26 20:38:25 - [467] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Frank Padecain wrote: It seems to me that larger ships such as the Domi, Rattler, and carriers use sentries as they are intended: while sitting still/orbiting at 500m. Would changing the drone control range specific to sentries, therefore not affecting any other drone classes, be a better balance than introducing new sentry drone sizes? The larger drone platform ships wouldn't suffer too much, they would still be stationary, but ships like the VNI and Ishtar would also have to remain stationary with their sentries, leaving them vulnerable to bomber fleets and making them easier to catch/neutralize their damage output. Does this make sense? The Ishtar and VNI would still be viable, but would be flown as more of a kiting/skirmishing ship, allowing other HACs to get more love. Do you think the somewhat better resistance to E-WAR from drone cruiser is important enough to force them to nail themself down in space to shoot? I just think that the ability to consistently project 500-600 dps at extreme range paired with the ability to zoom around the battlefield at high speeds with decent tank is dominant in a PvP situation, and the counter shouldn't be to field more of the exact same thing.
Nasar Vyron S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS. 66	Posted - 2015.05.26 23:15:54 - [468] - Quote @Frank, you should read my posts from about page 22 to now. Basically covering the same thing you're saying.
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery Prolapse. 2364	Posted - 2015.05.26 23:41:58 - [469] - Quote Primary This Rifter wrote: Since CCP is so convinced that the sentries are the problem and not the Ishtar, this has me wondering. What other sentry platform is overpowered? The Dominix? The reason we use it is because it requires far fewer fitting skills than virtually any other battleship doctrine. You want to fix that hull, you reduce its CPU and PG. The Eos? MAYBE. It's pretty balanced though, mostly due to the fact that it has much higher training requirements than the Ishtar, and its much more limited mobility in comparison. If you nerf the Ishtar this might emerge as the next favored ship, but it probably wouldn't. The Armageddon? Nah, it's just fine. If anything it could use a bit of a boost. The Nestor? No, that ship is a joke. Sentries don't really make it any better. The Rattlesnake? It's a pretty powerful ship, but it's pretty on par with the rest of the pirate battleships. If anything it needs a bit of a boost. The Stratios? Pretty balanced. It sees less PVP use than other pirate cruisers, but it has a decent amount of exploration utility. The Vexor/VNI? Powerful as far as T1 or Navy faction cruisers go, but still fairly balanced. As a gank boat the Vexor sees some utility, but otherwise its use is pretty even with other cruisers. Carriers? You can nerf sentries into the ground, it really isn't going to make much of a difference to how much these get used. The only problem is the Ishtar. The only nerf that needs to happen is to the Ishtar. Sentries themselves are fine. You had me up intil you said the Rattlesnake needs a boost. You wot m8? Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery Prolapse. 2364	Posted - 2015.05.26 23:46:53 - [470] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Trinkets friend wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas. Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! We use Bouncers in our ratting C4 doctrine with Cruise Typhoons as they can project damage plenty fine. might have to switch to Wardens. /wrists I suppose +1 for nerfing tracking n these things finally Went out to nullsec in a Garmur, tackled two ratting ishtars who were using Curator II's. I was kiting them at 30km @ 4.4km/s and they were hitting me just fine. The problem is NOT the drones, although the tracking nerfs above will certainly help, it is the doctrines. And you know what maketh the doctrines people are using? That's right, the drone tracking modules and damage modules and control range modules you put in the game. Adjust them a bit as well. Because if you can't even kite a sentry ishtar at 25km in the game's most ridiculous frigate, something's a bit stupid. I am just curious, were these two Ishtars sitting side-by-side? Were they stationary? Were they right next to their sentry drones? Because if they were at all sensible, they would have burned away from the sentry drones a fair distance, which would significantly lower your transversal vis-a-vis the sentry drones. Nope. Sitting at zero right next to each other right on top of their sentries. Like i said, the moment you can pile two types of tracking enhancer, damage enhancer, range enhancer onto a ship (and a modicum of tank, RR mebbe), you turn a reasonable proposition into an edge case where the parameters begin to get out of whack. I mean, this was just sentries. Heaven forfend they actually dropped warriors and did 338 DPS each. Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~

Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1175	Posted - 2015.05.27 02:53:40 - [471] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: Primary This Rifter wrote: Since CCP is so convinced that the sentries are the problem and not the Ishtar, this has me wondering. What other sentry platform is overpowered? The Dominix? The reason we use it is because it requires far fewer fitting skills than virtually any other battleship doctrine. You want to fix that hull, you reduce its CPU and PG. The Eos? MAYBE. It's pretty balanced though, mostly due to the fact that it has much higher training requirements than the Ishtar, and its much more limited mobility in comparison. If you nerf the Ishtar this might emerge as the next favored ship, but it probably wouldn't. The Armageddon? Nah, it's just fine. If anything it could use a bit of a boost. The Nestor? No, that ship is a joke. Sentries don't really make it any better. The Rattlesnake? It's a pretty powerful ship, but it's pretty on par with the rest of the pirate battleships. If anything it needs a bit of a boost. The Stratios? Pretty balanced. It sees less PVP use than other pirate cruisers, but it has a decent amount of exploration utility. The Vexor/VNI? Powerful as far as T1 or Navy faction cruisers go, but still fairly balanced. As a gank boat the Vexor sees some utility, but otherwise its use is pretty even with other cruisers. Carriers? You can nerf sentries into the ground, it really isn't going to make much of a difference to how much these get used. The only problem is the Ishtar. The only nerf that needs to happen is to the Ishtar. Sentries themselves are fine. You had me up intil you said the Rattlesnake needs a boost. You wot m8? none of those ships need s a boost, the nestor has OP repping bonus along with the Ship hangar, rattlesnake 2k+ dps is OP, vexor line needs a dps nerf, geddon should lose a few highs and 25mb and some dronebay aswell. Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Tessen Stellar Tide 7	Posted - 2015.05.27 03:19:39 - [472] - Quote 1. Dont nerf Garde Range : current is short enough for +á static trackingless heavy weapon. 2. Dont nerf other sentries 3. Change all drone boats doctrine : Frigate size = 25 Mbits max, light drone bonus only, Cruiser size = 50 Mbits max, med drone bonus only, BS size = 125 Mbits max, heavy drone bonus only. 4. Add new light sentry drones and medium sentry drones in game. Keep curent sentries and rename Heavy Sentry. Bonus. Boost skills giving drone control range or add a new one that only apply on drone boats. Maybee. a non drone boat always have a tiny drone bay ; a drone boat always can have a minimal of 3 sets of drones according to his size in his drone bay (75 m3 drone bay for a frigate size drone boad, 150m3 for a cruiser size drone boad and 375m3 for a BS size drone boat).
Quesa Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 71	Posted - 2015.05.27 05:43:43 - [473] - Quote I like where this is going. It hits tracking, which is, IMO, the major issue with the weapon platform since they don't appear to be hit with half of the transversal calculations...since they are immobile. It's certainly ok that this isn't a big hit because, as others have voice their concerns, nerfing sentries themselves will hit the non-double bonsed hulls will not find Sentry drones viable for use. With this change, they appear to be a viable platform but may not be the DOMINANT platform, which is good. After these changes go through, they can then tweak the double-bonused hulls.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 05:59:34 - [474] - Quote Trinkets friend wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: Trinkets friend wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas. Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! We use Bouncers in our ratting C4 doctrine with Cruise Typhoons as they can project damage plenty fine. might have to switch to Wardens. /wrists I suppose +1 for nerfing tracking n these things finally Went out to nullsec in a Garmur, tackled two ratting ishtars who were using Curator II's. I was kiting them at 30km @ 4.4km/s and they were hitting me just fine. The problem is NOT the drones, although the tracking nerfs above will certainly help, it is the doctrines. And you know what maketh the doctrines people are using? That's right, the drone tracking modules and damage modules and control range modules you put in the game. Adjust them a bit as well. Because if you can't even kite a sentry ishtar at 25km in the game's most ridiculous frigate, something's a bit stupid. I am just curious, were these two Ishtars sitting side-by-side? Were they stationary? Were they right next to their sentry drones? Because if they were at all sensible, they would have burned away from the sentry drones a fair distance, which would significantly lower your transversal vis-a-vis the sentry drones. Nope. Sitting at zero right next to each other right on top of their sentries. Like i said, the moment you can pile two types of tracking enhancer, damage enhancer, range enhancer onto a ship (and a modicum of tank, RR mebbe), you turn a reasonable proposition into an edge case where the parameters begin to get out of whack. I mean, this was just sentries. Heaven forfend they actually dropped warriors and did 338 DPS each. Let us see: Your turning rate in rad: 2+ù3.14 /(30km+ù2+ù3.14/4.4kmper sec)=about 0.146 rad per second Curator turning rate per second without tracking enhancers= 0.024 You are turning abot 6 time faster than the turning rate of the curators. No, they wont hit you!
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1296	Posted - 2015.05.27 06:51:07 - [475] - Quote Aplysia Vejun wrote: Trinkets friend wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: Trinkets friend wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas. Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! We use Bouncers in our ratting C4 doctrine with Cruise Typhoons as they can project damage plenty fine. might have to switch to Wardens. /wrists I suppose +1 for nerfing tracking n these things finally Went out to nullsec in a Garmur, tackled two ratting ishtars who were using Curator II's. I was kiting them at 30km @ 4.4km/s and they were hitting me just fine. The problem is NOT the drones, although the tracking nerfs above will certainly help, it is the doctrines. And you know what maketh the doctrines people are using? That's right, the drone tracking modules and damage modules and control range modules you put in the game. Adjust them a bit as well. Because if you can't even kite a sentry ishtar at 25km in the game's most ridiculous frigate, something's a bit stupid. I am just curious, were these two Ishtars sitting side-by-side? Were they stationary? Were they right next to their sentry drones? Because if they were at all sensible, they would have burned away from the sentry drones a fair distance, which would significantly lower your transversal vis-a-vis the sentry drones. Nope. Sitting at zero right next to each other right on top of their sentries. Like i said, the moment you can pile two types of tracking enhancer, damage enhancer, range enhancer onto a ship (and a modicum of tank, RR mebbe), you turn a reasonable proposition into an edge case where the parameters begin to get out of whack. I mean, this was just sentries. Heaven forfend they actually dropped warriors and did 338 DPS each. Let us see: Your turning rate in rad: 2+ù3.14 /(30km+ù2+ù3.14/4.4kmper sec)=about 0.146 rad per second Curator turning rate per second without tracking enhancers= 0.024 You are turning abot 6 time faster than the turning rate of the curators. No, they wont hit you! You've never seen ishtars fight in PvP, have you? Hint: they diverge from the drones to allow them to hit.
Aplysia Vejun The Scope Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.05.27 07:09:43 - [476] - Quote Sure. But he said they were not moving at all and staying near their sentries.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1296	Posted - 2015.05.27 07:26:15 - [477] - Quote What happens with TE? Betcha at those ranges they can graze. EFT will show it (if they ever fixed drone tracking math).
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 846	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:09:46 - [478] - Quote What's wrong with drone tracking math?
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1000	Posted - 2015.05.27 09:13:12 - [479] - Quote afkalt wrote: What happens with TE? Betcha at those ranges they can graze. EFT will show it (if they ever fixed drone tracking math). This is my bet, that two Ishtars (10 Curator II's) scripted for tracking, were still getting some hits on him. Not sure whether that is a problem or not, especially if he was using orbit at 30km. The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1296	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:07:53 - [480] - Quote Primary This Rifter wrote: What's wrong with drone tracking math? EFT used to ignore it when mobile drones were used, you could tell because if drone control range was > weapon range there was just a flat line that never changed no matter what the target did. I've never looked at at sentries in depth, I don't know if those are modelled correctly. I assume mobile drones are assumed to be static damage because drone movement itself is not modelled and is independent from the ship movement which drives other weapon calculations.

afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1296	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:17:39 - [481] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: afkalt wrote: What happens with TE? Betcha at those ranges they can graze. EFT will show it (if they ever fixed drone tracking math). This is my bet, that two Ishtars (10 Curator II's) scripted for tracking, were still getting some hits on him. Not sure whether that is a problem or not, especially if he was using orbit at 30km. Yes, plus sentries drop 2-3 km away from each other at points, all it takes is a slightly uneven orbit (unavoidable because it isn't a single drone) and they'll nick you. EM sentries at a shield ship with low hp are gonna hurt.
Jacid Aliastra Gallente Federation 61	Posted - 2015.05.27 10:40:35 - [482] - Quote Don't: Nerf sentries Nerf Ishtars or Domis Do: Have defender missiles target drones in order of threat Sentries>Heavies>medium>Lights You could adjust the explosive velocity so that heavy defenders would be do lots of damage to sentries but less so to moving drones. The ishtars could of course defend their sentries via firewall but then they wouldn't be able to be mobile and that would remove a lot of the benefit of flying an ishtar in the first place. Makes a more dynamic combat for eve and finally makes defender missiles useful. /Thread
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1296	Posted - 2015.05.27 11:12:37 - [483] - Quote Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter. Inspired.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1000	Posted - 2015.05.27 11:41:54 - [484] - Quote afkalt wrote: Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter. Inspired. Well, in his defense, since they are useless against everything else, you could give them absurd bonuses against drones. The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1839	Posted - 2015.05.27 14:56:16 - [485] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: afkalt wrote: Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter. Inspired. Well, in his defense, since they are useless against everything else, you could give them absurd bonuses against drones. Then they become a must have in fleets just in case...
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 776	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:03:16 - [486] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: afkalt wrote: Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter. Inspired. Well, in his defense, since they are useless against everything else, you could give them absurd bonuses against drones. Then they become a must have in fleets just in case... Tactical rock-paper-scissors is a valid balancing mechanic..... Though with CCPs usual balancing finesse it will probably come out more like Planet-cracking-asteriod-tissue-paper-shotgun. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Maxi Dap University of Caille Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:11:49 - [487] - Quote well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then.
Jacid Aliastra Gallente Federation 62	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:18:03 - [488] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: afkalt wrote: Yes, let's take the most useless missiles and use them to kill drones when killing drones with weapons that WORK is already a non-starter. Inspired. Well, in his defense, since they are useless against everything else, you could give them absurd bonuses against drones. I think it offers a better solution than beating to death the ishtar and sentries with the nerf bat. Sentries should be more powerful than other weapon systems at the cost of being able to be destroyed as was intended The alternative along those same lines is just to increase the sig radius and decrees the EHP of sentries looking at it with drone bonuses the garde has maybe 5k ehp and frig size sig.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1298	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:40:15 - [489] - Quote No one is asking for an unviable Ishtar, what we want is for it to be like other ships. I.e. Actually have fitting choices which are sacrifices. You know - tracking, range or DPS - pick two only. That sort of thing, right now there are NO choices because EVERYTHING fits and does EVERYTHING I've long advocated in other threads to drop the control range bonus and nerf CPU to enforce a fitting compromise of range (DLA) vs DPS (DDA), for example. That doesn't kill the Ishtar at all, brawlers are untouched, snipers lose some DPS as they have too much today. PvE could drop tank to use say...overclocks because....PvE who needs the tank?
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 778	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:42:53 - [490] - Quote afkalt wrote: No one is asking for an unviable Ishtar, what we want is for it to be like other ships. I.e. Actually have fitting choices which are sacrifices. You know - tracking, range or DPS - pick two only. That sort of thing, right now there are NO choices because EVERYTHING fits and does EVERYTHING Nah, it is usually Tank, speed, range, tracking, Ewar, DPS, pick 3 or pick half of 4. Ishtar gets to pick 5, which is why it is a problem. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp

afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1298	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:44:44 - [491] - Quote Yes, I was paraphrasing as on a mobile
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 778	Posted - 2015.05.27 17:47:52 - [492] - Quote afkalt wrote: Yes, I was paraphrasing as on a mobile Apologies for calling you out on brevity. Not sorry for helping expand the idea set as I agree with it entirely. Real fitting choices (even if they don't trim the fitting room, slot reduction or DLA adjustment should help alot) Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 847	Posted - 2015.05.27 18:28:22 - [493] - Quote afkalt wrote: Primary This Rifter wrote: What's wrong with drone tracking math? EFT used to ignore it when mobile drones were used, you could tell because if drone control range was > weapon range there was just a flat line that never changed no matter what the target did. I've never looked at at sentries in depth, I don't know if those are modelled correctly. I assume mobile drones are assumed to be static damage because drone movement itself is not modelled and is independent from the ship movement which drives other weapon calculations. I didn't ask about EFT. The drone tracking math in EVE is the same as it is with regular turrets. People who say that drone tracking is broken or too high for a battleship weapon don't know what they're talking about.
Abby Silverwind Demonic Retribution The Initiative. 5	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:00:11 - [494] - Quote The rage and tears in this thread are beautiful. Nice changes +1 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; Your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1299	Posted - 2015.05.27 19:51:26 - [495] - Quote Primary This Rifter wrote: afkalt wrote: Primary This Rifter wrote: What's wrong with drone tracking math? EFT used to ignore it when mobile drones were used, you could tell because if drone control range was > weapon range there was just a flat line that never changed no matter what the target did. I've never looked at at sentries in depth, I don't know if those are modelled correctly. I assume mobile drones are assumed to be static damage because drone movement itself is not modelled and is independent from the ship movement which drives other weapon calculations. I didn't ask about EFT. The drone tracking math in EVE is the same as it is with regular turrets. People who say that drone tracking is broken or too high for a battleship weapon don't know what they're talking about. But I was speaking in the context of EFT....
Lugh Crow-Slave 1109	Posted - 2015.05.27 20:30:33 - [496] - Quote Maxi Dap wrote: well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then. not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game. and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
FT Diomedes The Graduates Get Off My Lawn 1003	Posted - 2015.05.28 01:33:38 - [497] - Quote afkalt wrote: No one is asking for an unviable Ishtar, what we want is for it to be like other ships. I.e. Actually have fitting choices which are sacrifices. You know - tracking, range or DPS - pick two only. That sort of thing, right now there are NO choices because EVERYTHING fits and does EVERYTHING I've long advocated in other threads to drop the control range bonus and nerf CPU to enforce a fitting compromise of range (DLA) vs DPS (DDA), for example. That doesn't kill the Ishtar at all, brawlers are untouched, snipers lose some DPS as they have too much today. PvE could drop tank to use say...overclocks because....PvE who needs the tank? Just dropping the control range bonus would go a long way, because that nerfs the projection. I'm not even sure that it would be necessary to also nerf the CPU. Remember, the goal should be to bring the Ishtar in line with the Zealot, Muninn, and Eagle, not turn it into a smoking crater of uselessness. The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 715	Posted - 2015.05.28 01:49:53 - [498] - Quote James Baboli wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question. What are sentries balanced against? Large Railguns and Beams. They just forgot to adjust VNI & Ishtar bandwidths when DDAs came out. Primary This Rifter wrote: afkalt wrote: Primary This Rifter wrote: What's wrong with drone tracking math? EFT used to ignore it when mobile drones were used, you could tell because if drone control range was > weapon range there was just a flat line that never changed no matter what the target did. I've never looked at at sentries in depth, I don't know if those are modelled correctly. I assume mobile drones are assumed to be static damage because drone movement itself is not modelled and is independent from the ship movement which drives other weapon calculations. I didn't ask about EFT. The drone tracking math in EVE is the same as it is with regular turrets. People who say that drone tracking is broken or too high for a battleship weapon don't know what they're talking about. Bonused sentries have Medium turret tracking, on top of being independent of the host ship's velocity, range or direction relative to the target. Cry me a river. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 744	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:23:13 - [499] - Quote So why do people insist on trying to engage Ishtars with sentries out? I mean, orbit the sentries and don't let them kite you, or just shoot the sentries. I don't fly Ishtars myself, but I have seen sentries in action. They die pretty quick and easy. I can't imagine they are doing a lot of rolling up, tackling, kiting and still keeping you really far from the setries without giving you the opportunity to leave.
Teebeutel Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 0	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:23:20 - [500] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: So why do people insist on trying to engage Ishtars with sentries out? I mean, orbit the sentries and don't let them kite you, or just shoot the sentries. I don't fly Ishtars myself, but I have seen sentries in action. They die pretty quick and easy. I can't imagine they are doing a lot of rolling up, tackling, kiting and still keeping you really far from the setries without giving you the opportunity to leave. You can't orbit sentries effectively enough to give all of them tracking problems if they're spread out by even the slightest bit, which is something that any competently run ishtar fleet will make sure of, at certain fleet sizes the blob of sentries just becomes to big. Not to mention that in the time you would spend killing their sentries, they kill your fleetmates.

Maxi Dap University of Caille Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 06:35:48 - [501] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Maxi Dap wrote: well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then. not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game. and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not Ok, without lying let me see those other pve ships. See if you can fit the criteria bellow: 460m budget 15 min C3 site clear avarage Cruiser size hull 700+ dps out ot 65km range application
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 744	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:06:16 - [502] - Quote Teebeutel wrote: Mike Voidstar wrote: So why do people insist on trying to engage Ishtars with sentries out? I mean, orbit the sentries and don't let them kite you, or just shoot the sentries. I don't fly Ishtars myself, but I have seen sentries in action. They die pretty quick and easy. I can't imagine they are doing a lot of rolling up, tackling, kiting and still keeping you really far from the setries without giving you the opportunity to leave. You can't orbit sentries effectively enough to give all of them tracking problems if they're spread out by even the slightest bit, which is something that any competently run ishtar fleet will make sure of, at certain fleet sizes the blob of sentries just becomes to big. Not to mention that in the time you would spend killing their sentries, they kill your fleetmates. So why not just leave? I have a hard time seeing them keeping tackle when burdened with sentries and trying to kite, unless you are just completely out numbered or they have skirmish linked Arezu/Lachesis or similar sillyness It really seems like a lot of the complaints stem from trying to fight in conditions that favor the enemy.
Nagarythe Tinurandir House of Freedom 208	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:29:23 - [503] - Quote Maxi Dap wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Maxi Dap wrote: well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then. not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game. and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not Ok, without lying let me see those other pve ships. See if you can fit the criteria bellow: 460m budget 15 min C3 site clear avarage Cruiser size hull 700+ dps out ot 65km range application thats simply rediculous. this doesn't strike you as over the top? Maxi Dap wrote: So why not just leave? I have a hard time seeing them keeping tackle when burdened with sentries and trying to kite, unless you are just completely out numbered or they have skirmish linked Arezu/Lachesis or similar sillyness It really seems like a lot of the complaints stem from trying to fight in conditions that favor the enemy. If you are in a gang out for trouble, leaving is no problem. But what happens when you'd like to defend your POS/Station, with all your stuff in it? Leaving then means abandoning your home. You'll need a whole fleet of bombers just to clear multiple waves of sentries but they cannot stay on grid for combat because torpedoes are bad against speeding ishtars and would be shredded by warriors. With the upcoming changes to SOV mechanics, grid control is an important thing and if the only alternative to abandon grid is bringing more ishtars than your opponent, something is wrong for sure.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 799	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:31:56 - [504] - Quote Maxi Dap wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Maxi Dap wrote: well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then. not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game. and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not Ok, without lying let me see those other pve ships. See if you can fit the criteria bellow: 460m budget 15 min C3 site clear avarage Cruiser size hull 700+ dps out ot 65km range application Those are fairly impressive numbers, seeing as I can't get such numbers out of two ships which are reasonably agreed to be OP almost everywhere, specifically tengu and loki. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Maxi Dap University of Caille Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 08:39:23 - [505] - Quote Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote: thats simply rediculous. this doesn't strike you as over the top? Over the top compared to what? Hi-sec mission running? Incursions? I mean if I want to make 160m an hour in a C3 Wh where the risk is quet high thats over the top? Really? It's nto the Ishtar thats broken, its every other (same sized hull) ship balanced for pvp that makes them suck in pve. Sure there is plenty of BS that are capable of pve, and they are out there. But didn't you guys get the memo? this is cruisers online.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1308	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:29:59 - [506] - Quote Maxi Dap wrote: Cruiser sized hull 700+ dps out ot 65km range application This is literally everything that's wrong with them. And by the way, Sleipnirs can do those sites roughly that fast.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 744	Posted - 2015.05.28 10:01:51 - [507] - Quote Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote: Maxi Dap wrote: So why not just leave? I have a hard time seeing them keeping tackle when burdened with sentries and trying to kite, unless you are just completely out numbered or they have skirmish linked Arezu/Lachesis or similar sillyness It really seems like a lot of the complaints stem from trying to fight in conditions that favor the enemy. If you are in a gang out for trouble, leaving is no problem. But what happens when you'd like to defend your POS/Station, with all your stuff in it? Leaving then means abandoning your home. You'll need a whole fleet of bombers just to clear multiple waves of sentries but they cannot stay on grid for combat because torpedoes are bad against speeding ishtars and would be shredded by warriors. With the upcoming changes to SOV mechanics, grid control is an important thing and if the only alternative to abandon grid is bringing more ishtars than your opponent, something is wrong for sure. I don't know.... Surely there are range bonuses ships that can fit sensor boosters and tracking enhancers to outrange sentries and just blap them from the sky? Rohk's seem like they could hit out further than you could get a sentry to go. It's not like the sentries are smaller than a cruiser and moving at all, should be pretty easy. If they were there to hit your POS. How many link augmentors are these ships supposed to be using? I understand it would be hard if only one person was defending the structure, but then several vs. One rarely works out for the one.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1308	Posted - 2015.05.28 10:13:43 - [508] - Quote Standard ishtar fit hits to ~133km. That leaves a very small window of safety for ships to sit in because breach 150km and they're warping to you at ranges. Or they can burn out of range. The only ships reliably able to push out that far are generally hybrid users, which hit 90% resists. A big enough ball of NApocs has some success, but typically only against smaller fleets
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance 151	Posted - 2015.05.28 10:24:33 - [509] - Quote Tamer wrote: Dear CCP. That fix do nothing. The only one thing you can do to nerf OP drone formats. Add signature radius and/or reduce HP of drones. 1-2 bombs to kill drones, will be great. Shield Ishtar has 60k EHP. Its drones in drone bay have 120k EHP combined. CCP, why?
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 744	Posted - 2015.05.28 11:12:02 - [510] - Quote afkalt wrote: Standard ishtar fit hits to ~133km. That leaves a very small window of safety for ships to sit in because breach 150km and they're warping to you at ranges. Or they can burn out of range. The only ships reliably able to push out that far are generally hybrid users, which hit 90% resists. A big enough ball of NApocs has some success, but typically only against smaller fleets That may be the case... But if they warp to you then they have to deploy sentries again. don't stay there. The long range ship(s) are just to deal with the drones. Drones main weakness is being able to be shot. Use that. Granted they are better than they were, but there was a day not long ago when drone based PvP was a bad joke. Remember why.

Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1841	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:01:39 - [511] - Quote afkalt wrote: Standard ishtar fit hits to ~133km. That leaves a very small window of safety for ships to sit in because breach 150km and they're warping to you at ranges. Or they can burn out of range. The only ships reliably able to push out that far are generally hybrid users, which hit 90% resists. A big enough ball of NApocs has some success, but typically only against smaller fleets I started doing a DPS graph of ship doctrine I could find other than ishtars by forcing the ship to shot at it's resist profile. The result were not really nice to see.
Soldarius Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore 1289	Posted - 2015.05.28 13:53:57 - [512] - Quote Cruise missiles have no issues hitting out that far and much farther. They have good application and totally selectable damage types. But the only 2 dps ships that use cruise missiles are the Raven and Typhoon, both T1 battleships. So they take all that sentry drone damage right in the kisser. And they can get bombed to oblivion. So there really aren't any viable alternatives for heavy dps. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1841	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:17:13 - [513] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Cruise missiles have no issues hitting out that far and much farther. They have good application and totally selectable damage types. But the only 2 dps ships that use cruise missiles are the Raven and Typhoon, both T1 battleships. So they take all that sentry drone damage right in the kisser. And they can get bombed to oblivion. So there really aren't any viable alternatives for heavy dps. You could use cerb to reach that far with heavy. Just don't use your bonused damage type because that would be "interesting"...
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1308	Posted - 2015.05.28 14:41:49 - [514] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Soldarius wrote: Cruise missiles have no issues hitting out that far and much farther. They have good application and totally selectable damage types. But the only 2 dps ships that use cruise missiles are the Raven and Typhoon, both T1 battleships. So they take all that sentry drone damage right in the kisser. And they can get bombed to oblivion. So there really aren't any viable alternatives for heavy dps. You could use cerb to reach that far with heavy. Just don't use your bonused damage type because that would be "interesting"... I think you mean futile. Ravens can't do it either. ed: ignore me, remathing. had resists ticked And the fun part is to go from the 10mn MWD to the 100mn AB I need to change 0 other parts of the fit, it is a direct swap out.
Goldensaver Lom Corporation SpaceMonkey's Alliance 409	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:18:33 - [515] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: So why do people insist on trying to engage Ishtars with sentries out? I mean, orbit the sentries and don't let them kite you, or just shoot the sentries. I don't fly Ishtars myself, but I have seen sentries in action. They die pretty quick and easy. I can't imagine they are doing a lot of rolling up, tackling, kiting and still keeping you really far from the setries without giving you the opportunity to leave. You do that, please. And while you're orbiting our sentries that are 100km+ away, plinking away at the mass of EHP, we'll abandon them and drop new ones out here. And we'll kill your ships from out here... while you waste your time killing sentries.
Deacon Abox Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 502	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:31:06 - [516] - Quote James Baboli wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: DEFANDER wrote: I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question. What are sentries balanced against? By the whole forum I guess you mean yourself and those that post in a similar vein. Really you should say that. Otherwise you presume too much. CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1308	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:39:00 - [517] - Quote Deacon Abox wrote: James Baboli wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: DEFANDER wrote: I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. I think the whole forum would like an answer to one question. What are sentries balanced against? By the whole forum I guess you mean yourself and those that post in a similar vein. Really you should say that. Otherwise you presume too much. It is a valid question, everything else is balanced against the peer group. M Rails were nerfed because they were better than all the other medium weapons, for example. Signature size suggests they ought to be measured against large class weapons, but that is but a supposition at this stage. If CCP want feedback about balance, we need to know the bounds in which that weapon is to be compared. Otherwise it's impossible to provide reasonably competent or useful feedback. If CCP are balancing these against "large" guns but the players are comparing them to the medium gun meta, there will be a huge disconnect in terms of feedback/design intent. This isn't the kind of information that should be witheld, not if valid feedback is sought.
ashley Eoner 476	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:08:55 - [518] - Quote I love how in the "we're nerfing sentry drones" thread all the talk is about ishtars and how overpowered they are and not the actual drone nerf. I would like to see James Baboli's question answered by ccp.
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 36	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:09:41 - [519] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Maxi Dap wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Maxi Dap wrote: well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then. not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game. and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not Ok, without lying let me see those other pve ships. See if you can fit the criteria bellow: 460m budget 15 min C3 site clear avarage Cruiser size hull 700+ dps out ot 65km range application Those are fairly impressive numbers, seeing as I can't get such numbers out of two ships which are reasonably agreed to be OP almost everywhere, specifically tengu and loki. I get pretty close with a Tengu: [Tengu, Tengu HML] Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System 10MN Afterburner II Medium Shield Booster II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay 685DPS from 71km
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1841	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:34:06 - [520] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: James Baboli wrote: Maxi Dap wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Maxi Dap wrote: well there goes pve Ishtar again, still breathing thou, kick it again while on the ground in future patches. Eventually it will be as good as the rest of eve ships, we can have singularity then. not going to lie there are plenty of other ships you can use in pve that don't disrupt balance in the rest of the game. and yes things should always be balanced for pvp if the are overpowered in that area regardless of if they lose effectiveness in isk grinding or not Ok, without lying let me see those other pve ships. See if you can fit the criteria bellow: 460m budget 15 min C3 site clear avarage Cruiser size hull 700+ dps out ot 65km range application Those are fairly impressive numbers, seeing as I can't get such numbers out of two ships which are reasonably agreed to be OP almost everywhere, specifically tengu and loki. I get pretty close with a Tengu: [Tengu, Tengu HML] Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System 10MN Afterburner II Medium Shield Booster II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay 685DPS from 71km At 90 mill/BCS, I think you are a bit over budget...

Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 36	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:52:51 - [521] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: At 90 mill/BCS, I think you are a bit over budget... According to O.sium this Tengu is only 450M which was within the budget constraints asked for.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 801	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:56:20 - [522] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: At 90 mill/BCS, I think you are a bit over budget... According to O.sium this Tengu is only 450M which was within the budget constraints asked for. Much as I love Http://o.smium.org the price tracker is a bit, well, wonky. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Terra Chrall Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 36	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:05:08 - [523] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: At 90 mill/BCS, I think you are a bit over budget... According to O.sium this Tengu is only 450M which was within the budget constraints asked for. EDIT: O.Sium is not giving the right number.... or else I would not have brought this fit up. I'll see if I can fix it. Yeah dropping it down to T2 BCUs and swapping CPU rig for missile rig you get 637DPS. For the price of 450-460m, Sorry. Still not too bad though. And of course you can not overheat drones, so PvP paper dps is 749DPS for this 450M Tengu. Just pointing out another DPS difference between drones and traditional weapons.
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance 151	Posted - 2015.05.28 20:23:32 - [524] - Quote ashley Eoner wrote: I love how in the "we're nerfing sentry drones" thread all the talk is about ishtars and how overpowered they are and not the actual drone nerf. I would like to see James Baboli's question answered by ccp. Me too. I'd like to know if heavy drones are considered balanced by CCP and if yes - why sentry drones are so much tougher? What if we swap EHP of those - will EVE die on the next day?
Louanne Barros Hole Violence Whole Squid 12	Posted - 2015.05.28 23:48:48 - [525] - Quote You're right, clearly the Eos is so overpowered it needed a nerf to its weapon systems. Clearly the Ishtar and Dominix aren't the only problematic sentry-drone ships, right? Despite nobody being able to name any others in this thread. The falloff change to the Gardes also makes no 'lore' sense at all, like a previous poster pointed out.
Maxi Dap University of Caille Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2015.05.29 07:41:31 - [526] - Quote Terra Chrall wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: At 90 mill/BCS, I think you are a bit over budget... According to O.sium this Tengu is only 450M which was within the budget constraints asked for. EDIT: O.Sium is not giving the right number.... or else I would not have brought this fit up. I'll see if I can fix it. Never mind the cost, good luck with that tank in a C3 anom lol
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1308	Posted - 2015.05.29 07:52:46 - [527] - Quote It would tank it fine due to the AB and being able to freely move. The ishtar I used to use had a comparable tank.
Spc One The Chodak Void Alliance 247	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:50:11 - [528] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! Just remove sentry drones from game, you nerfed drones so much already, and normal combat drones are no longer allowed/useable in missions, because they get attacked second i deploy them, especially ogre II get killed instantly in level 4 mission after 5 seconds.
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 282	Posted - 2015.05.29 16:38:06 - [529] - Quote Spc One wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! Just remove sentry drones from game, you nerfed drones so much already, and normal combat drones are no longer allowed/useable in missions, because they get attacked second i deploy them, especially ogre II get killed instantly in level 4 mission after 5 seconds. That's because ogres have all their HP in structure with no resistance. Use something else. Wasps and Berserkers are perfectly usable for 'reasons'. Praetors are kind of ok if you have a HP bonus to them and willing to put a remote repper in a highslot. Armor gets shafted for no justifiable reason either since they don't heal themselves the way shield drones do. The armor shield dichotomy is fine at the ship level but for drones its stupid. If you look back at dev blogs there was a deliberate decision to keep the total HP for gallente and minmatar drones less than the total HP for amarr and caldari drones to make up for them being more generalized. This hurt gallente far more than it should have, again, due to the structure issue.
Spc One The Chodak Void Alliance 247	Posted - 2015.05.29 16:46:05 - [530] - Quote Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Just remove sentry drones from game, you nerfed drones so much already, and normal combat drones are no longer allowed/useable in missions, because they get attacked second i deploy them, especially ogre II get killed instantly in level 4 mission after 5 seconds. That's because ogres have all their HP in structure with no resistance. Use something else. Wasps and Berserkers are perfectly usable for 'reasons'. Praetors are kind of ok if you have a HP bonus to them and willing to put a remote repper in a highslot. Armor gets shafted for no justifiable reason either since they don't heal themselves the way shield drones do. The armor shield dichotomy is fine at the ship level but for drones its stupid. If you look back at dev blogs there was a deliberate decision to keep the total HP for gallente and minmatar drones less than the total HP for amarr and caldari drones to make up for them being more generalized. This hurt gallente far more than it should have, again, due to the structure issue.[/quote] It doesn't matter what heavy drones are used, they get attacked instantly, when heavy drone is 30km away from dominix, it will die, no matter what you do.

Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 282	Posted - 2015.05.29 16:56:42 - [531] - Quote Spc One wrote: Hakaari Inkuran wrote: That's because ogres have all their HP in structure with no resistance. Use something else. Wasps and Berserkers are perfectly usable for 'reasons'. Praetors are kind of ok if you have a HP bonus to them and willing to put a remote repper in a highslot. Armor gets shafted for no justifiable reason either since they don't heal themselves the way shield drones do. The armor shield dichotomy is fine at the ship level but for drones its stupid. If you look back at dev blogs there was a deliberate decision to keep the total HP for gallente and minmatar drones less than the total HP for amarr and caldari drones to make up for them being more generalized. This hurt gallente far more than it should have, again, due to the structure issue. It doesn't matter what heavy drones are used, they get attacked instantly, when heavy drone is 30km away from dominix, it will die, no matter what you do. Dunno. Everyone ignores my gecko. Try putting guns on your domi. Maybe a remote repper for aggro.
Spc One The Chodak Void Alliance 247	Posted - 2015.05.29 17:19:43 - [532] - Quote Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Dunno. Everyone ignores my gecko. Try putting guns on your domi. Maybe a remote repper for aggro. Gecko is limited and ccp is not releasing any new geckos, i am talking about normal t-2 / t-1 heavy drones. Remote repper will cut dps down and you can't repair beyond 10km anyway, so if drone is 30km away it's dead no matter what, unless you wanna do level 4 missions in logi ship with drones and repair drones all the time.
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 282	Posted - 2015.05.29 17:23:31 - [533] - Quote Spc One wrote: Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Dunno. Everyone ignores my gecko. Try putting guns on your domi. Maybe a remote repper for aggro. Gecko is limited and ccp is not releasing any new geckos, i am talking about normal t-2 / t-1 heavy drones. Remote repper will cut dps down and you can't repair beyond 10km anyway, so if drone is 30km away it's dead no matter what, unless you wanna do level 4 missions in logi ship with drones and repair drones all the time. There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs. So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%.
Spc One The Chodak Void Alliance 247	Posted - 2015.05.29 17:37:52 - [534] - Quote Hakaari Inkuran wrote: There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs. So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%. Do a test. Get a dominix with t-2 heavy drones. Go to level 4 mission, get aggro to your ship and deploy drones, check how long it takes for drones to die. You will loose all of your drones in few seconds.
Markus Reese Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 385	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:47:30 - [535] - Quote I don't talk forums much anymore and devblogs less. However, drones and even more drones in PvE I am more versed. Heavy drones indeed die much too fast for pve and pvp, well any drone can die fast and expected so. No comarison. There is balance to be found maybe in them., heavies that is. I do use them pve, but I combine it with a close range ship so I can easily recall individuals. The cheeze fit afk pve drone fits, yeah, they die real fast since no ship pulling agro. But for sentries, it seems fair balance between to hit and their power. My sentry of choice is actually wardens with MJD and sniper fit. Damage and application over tank. Sure, actually have to play, but wide range battlefield control with damage projection, great damage and ranges. Try warden MJD rattler without the mega dps tank.... Hidh dps but 100km for your tank. Using heavies, then just get in their face. I do think the microwarp speed on mediums and heavy need a serious boost...
Mukirana Lone Lion Corporation 1	Posted - 2015.05.29 22:27:47 - [536] - Quote I think that RS (and other drone boats, except the Domi and the ishtar) will drop. And yes, I think that I'll use Wardens all the time with my RS.
Cartheron Crust Matari Exodus The Camel Empire 170	Posted - 2015.05.29 23:31:27 - [537] - Quote Spc One wrote: Hakaari Inkuran wrote: There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs. So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%. Do a test. Get a dominix with t-2 heavy drones. Go to level 4 mission, get aggro to your ship and deploy drones, check how long it takes for drones to die. You will loose all of your drones in few seconds. Then you must have terrible in game drone skills or terrible actual player drone management skills. I do Lvl4's with two RR Domi's and the only drones I have ever lost are lights when not paying attention. Only drones I normally rep with a repper are sentries and they can normally tank the whole room if they get aggro and I just rep them. I use no mods or rigs to affect drones speed or durability. In short, you are either lying or a bad. Which is it?
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 744	Posted - 2015.05.30 00:33:11 - [538] - Quote Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Spc One wrote: Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Dunno. Everyone ignores my gecko. Try putting guns on your domi. Maybe a remote repper for aggro. Gecko is limited and ccp is not releasing any new geckos, i am talking about normal t-2 / t-1 heavy drones. Remote repper will cut dps down and you can't repair beyond 10km anyway, so if drone is 30km away it's dead no matter what, unless you wanna do level 4 missions in logi ship with drones and repair drones all the time. There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs. So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%. You are way off base, and must not use drones often at all. There is no way, none at all, to reliably deal with agro on drones. The only time I wasn't losing several per mission is when I brought 2 or more friends with me. I have tried Ewar, Remote Reps, Target Painters, letting one die, etc... There are days when drones don't get a lot of attention, and then days when the AI has a dark hunger for drones that cannot be satisfied. The AI change is what prompted me to get out of drones and into Mauraders. It's not about some magical skill for dealing with agro, there is no mystical arcane secret... Remote Reps, Ewar, etc... simply do not work.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 744	Posted - 2015.05.30 00:35:49 - [539] - Quote Cartheron Crust wrote: Spc One wrote: Hakaari Inkuran wrote: There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs. So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%. Do a test. Get a dominix with t-2 heavy drones. Go to level 4 mission, get aggro to your ship and deploy drones, check how long it takes for drones to die. You will loose all of your drones in few seconds. Then you must have terrible in game drone skills or terrible actual player drone management skills. I do Lvl4's with two RR Domi's and the only drones I have ever lost are lights when not paying attention. Only drones I normally rep with a repper are sentries and they can normally tank the whole room if they get aggro and I just rep them. I use no mods or rigs to affect drones speed or durability. In short, you are either lying or a bad. Which is it? It could be he is solo, talking about heavy drones and not sentries, and lacks the rep power or projection to let the sentries tank. Your example pre-supposes the drones are actually getting agro and you are simply repping through the damage.
loquacious7 Pawnstars INC The Obsidian Front 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:32:55 - [540] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Seven Koskanaiken wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: The great thing about balance surrounding drones/sentries/ishtars is that everyone thinks they know the one and only thing that needs to change, so no matter what you change you **** off 90% of the forums. Well has something come to light that contradicts Rise's statement? Which particular ships outside of Ishtar and Domi are using sentries/drones to OP effect? Where's the data to back this all up? What do the CSM say on this (if anything?) Nothing here contradicts Rise's statement. The biggest issue was definitely the Ishtar hull, and the hull is still a significant component of the issue. That's why we made a much larger adjustment to the Ishtar last release (cutting its sentry damage bonus in half) than these changes to the drones. While the results of that Ishtar change is still playing out, we're continuing to make more adjustments to the overall sentry ecosystem with these changes. We also won't rule out more changes to the hull (and to other non-hull aspects of this whole picture) in the near future, but we aren't ready for more of those in Carnyx quite yet. Sentries are an extremely strong weapon system, and their strength has really shown itself in the past years as we hit the critical mass required for players to improve their tactics for using them. At the moment they are a bit too good on essentially every ship that has a drone damage bonus and at least 125mbits bandwidth (with Ishtars the most obvious offender, but Domis, carriers, VNIs, Rattlesnakes and Geddons all affected), which is why we're making some moderate changes to the drones in Carnyx. I'll let individual CSM members share their opinions if they wish, but every member of the CSM that provided any comment on these changes pushed for larger nerfs. The version of these changes that I first showed the CSM was a bit milder, but they convinced me to give it a bit more teeth. Remember a few years back when Drone platform was a new concept. First thanks for making drones a platform like lasers, projectiles etc. Second thought is, other platforms have close range and long range variants with advantages and disadvantages. you have four sentries with different advantages and disadvantages. Pick two and say these are close range fast tracking and the next two are long range etc. THEN FIX the Ishtar problem by leaving it alone, and buff the other HAC's :p

ashley Eoner 477	Posted - 2015.05.30 03:29:35 - [541] - Quote Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Spc One wrote: Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Dunno. Everyone ignores my gecko. Try putting guns on your domi. Maybe a remote repper for aggro. Gecko is limited and ccp is not releasing any new geckos, i am talking about normal t-2 / t-1 heavy drones. Remote repper will cut dps down and you can't repair beyond 10km anyway, so if drone is 30km away it's dead no matter what, unless you wanna do level 4 missions in logi ship with drones and repair drones all the time. There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs. So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%. I can't agree with that statement. Geckos don't seem to pull the aggro that regular heavies pull. I have extensive testing in incursions AND mission running. Where my geckos rarely have issues it seems that I'm always pulling the regular t2 heavies back in all the time to get aggro off them.
Crimson Red Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.05.30 03:46:04 - [542] - Quote The problem is that the ishtar far out DPS's other HACs at RANGE and has great damage application because of its double bonus. Optimal range AND tracking. Period, the end, simple. CCP, stop screwing over everyone over 1 broken hull.
Sizeof Void Ninja Suicide Squadron 589	Posted - 2015.05.30 05:41:23 - [543] - Quote I'd suggest that combat drones, and ship-based drone bonuses, be limited to light, medium and heavy drones - preferably returning them to a secondary weapon role, even on ships like the Domi. Sentry drones were a mistake to introduce into the game, and bonused sentries are even worse. They should be completely rethought, redesigned and perhaps reintroduced as a deployable, like the MTUs.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 744	Posted - 2015.05.30 07:37:36 - [544] - Quote Drones are no more secondary than missiles. Drones existed for years in an abysmal state. They have finally graduated to poor except on a few hulls and everyone stops laughing at drone users and looses their mind. Sentries have been around forever, and a little extra tracking on a couple hulls didn't suddenly make them OP. It's certainly no worse than other ships with tracking bonuses. I agree to an extent that there should be sized sentries like there are combat drones, with bandwidth being reduced on hulls that probably should not be fielding heavier firepower. Other silly suggestions like reducing drone bay or making drones suck again should just not happen until we reduce all cargo holds so that there are only a half dozen turret/missile weapon reloads.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1314	Posted - 2015.05.30 08:50:14 - [545] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Spc One wrote: Hakaari Inkuran wrote: Dunno. Everyone ignores my gecko. Try putting guns on your domi. Maybe a remote repper for aggro. Gecko is limited and ccp is not releasing any new geckos, i am talking about normal t-2 / t-1 heavy drones. Remote repper will cut dps down and you can't repair beyond 10km anyway, so if drone is 30km away it's dead no matter what, unless you wanna do level 4 missions in logi ship with drones and repair drones all the time. There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs. So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%. You are way off base, and must not use drones often at all. There is no way, none at all, to reliably deal with agro on drones. The only time I wasn't losing several per mission is when I brought 2 or more friends with me. I have tried Ewar, Remote Reps, Target Painters, letting one die, etc... There are days when drones don't get a lot of attention, and then days when the AI has a dark hunger for drones that cannot be satisfied. The AI change is what prompted me to get out of drones and into Mauraders. It's not about some magical skill for dealing with agro, there is no mystical arcane secret... Remote Reps, Ewar, etc... simply do not work. It actually depends what area of space you're in. Missions they'll target swap, but sentries have so many HP you need to be drunk to lose them and a domi can keep them up via RR. I speak from extensive experience. Sending heavy drones out past point blank is a fools errand anyway due to travel time, at their range of use I've not lost any either (when things get under sentries). WH the sleepers are slanted to hate RR so much that I've never had them switch to a drone, ever. May go a ways to explaining the differing accounts. ed: And my geckos get shot all the damn time, but they suck it up like nothing else so who cares?
Cartheron Crust Matari Exodus The Camel Empire 170	Posted - 2015.05.30 10:03:18 - [546] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: Cartheron Crust wrote: Spc One wrote: Hakaari Inkuran wrote: There's nothing magical about geckos that makes them get ignored by NPCs. So you're just making excuses now. I explained my heavy drone gets ignored and offered suggestions on A. how to get your heavies ignored and B. how to make sure that any drone that does get targeted and webbed can at least tank a decent amount so you don't have to recall or come cry on the forums about how it died. The two suggestions when taken together will solve your problem 100%. Do a test. Get a dominix with t-2 heavy drones. Go to level 4 mission, get aggro to your ship and deploy drones, check how long it takes for drones to die. You will loose all of your drones in few seconds. Then you must have terrible in game drone skills or terrible actual player drone management skills. I do Lvl4's with two RR Domi's and the only drones I have ever lost are lights when not paying attention. Only drones I normally rep with a repper are sentries and they can normally tank the whole room if they get aggro and I just rep them. I use no mods or rigs to affect drones speed or durability. In short, you are either lying or a bad. Which is it? It could be he is solo, talking about heavy drones and not sentries, and lacks the rep power or projection to let the sentries tank. Your example pre-supposes the drones are actually getting agro and you are simply repping through the damage. True, but there is no need to ever use heavies in a mission if you have sentries to the same skill level. Even bouncers (iirc they have the worst tracking, though I never use wardens so maybe they are worse) will track orbiting at 5-10k npc BS, BC and even cruisers with just a single Omni tracking link (scripted for tracking)and a painter. The only thing they won't track well, or at all, is elite cruisers and frigs, when they are in orbit. Though they can often be dealt with at range anyways before tracking is an issue. And dealing with aggro on sentries is easy. Return to ship, redeploy. . . Allso with RR and ET (maybe the painter helps attract aggro also) on ships the drones will hardly ever get aggro anyway. Generally it's just the light drones when I'm finishing up with killing the frigs. So the whole "flight of heavies getting nuked in seconds" is just straight up bollox. Or as I said before they exaggerating to make up for weakness in inn game drone skills or actual player drone management skill.
Redbull Spai Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 9	Posted - 2015.05.30 11:22:20 - [547] - Quote How about this then: Reduce the size of heavy drones to 20. Have a maximum bandwidth for ship sizes, frig 10, AF/dessy 25, cruiser 50, hac/bc 100, battel ship 125. Navy cruisers count as hacs for the purpose of this. These maximums obviously are for specialist droneboats, normal ships get less as normal. This firmly places heavy drones as the designed drone for myrms (which would have thier BW increaced to 100), ishtars and VNIs. Yes you can still use a sentry ishtar if you want to, but you immidiatly are hit with a 20% damage nerf by the simple fact you can only fly four sentries.
Ivanna Humpalat Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:32:57 - [548] - Quote The biggest issue is not really that one thing here or there was slowly, or quickly nerfed to obliteration. What the real issue is, is that we, the consumer effectively purchased the skills for a said item, in this case sentry drones V (which took over 30 days) to eventually have that skill's value diminished greatly from the original expectation. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I am left feeling similar to a person who bought a car that turned out to be a lemon. It's like, "um, this was supposed to be this, not what it is now." If CCP changes things so much that they are just a shadow of their original form, then I would like to have the ability also to change where I place my skill points. I don't weep for the loss of the value of things I once used and enjoyed. I weep only for skill points which are now much less valuable.
ugh zug 104	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:43:27 - [549] - Quote Ouch. Want me to shut up? Remove content from my post,1B. Remove my content from a thread I have started 2B.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 744	Posted - 2015.05.30 13:19:57 - [550] - Quote Ivanna Humpalat wrote: The biggest issue is not really that one thing here or there was slowly, or quickly nerfed to obliteration. What the real issue is, is that we, the consumer effectively purchased the skills for a said item, in this case sentry drones V (which took over 30 days) to eventually have that skill's value diminished greatly from the original expectation. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I am left feeling similar to a person who bought a car that turned out to be a lemon. It's like, "um, this was supposed to be this, not what it is now." If CCP changes things so much that they are just a shadow of their original form, then I would like to have the ability also to change where I place my skill points. I don't weep for the loss of the value of things I once used and enjoyed. I weep only for skill points which are now much less valuable. Meh. Happens all the time. I was using drones before they were cool, and actually got out of them right around the time they became mainstream because the Battleships Tiericide and the NPC AI changes happened about the same time. I spent a few months traveling around, trying to find some combination of NPC and tactics that would make drones vs. environment worth the hassle, and ultimately decided those skillpoints were wasted then. Now I have maxxed out gunnery support, and am either 3 or 4 in all turret specialization skills, and am working my way through missiles to insure I don't have to worry about that sort of thing again. Don't follow the flavor of the month, play with something you like. Cartheron Crust wrote: True, but there is no need to ever use heavies in a mission if you have sentries to the same skill level. Even bouncers (iirc they have the worst tracking, though I never use wardens so maybe they are worse) will track orbiting at 5-10k npc BS, BC and even cruisers with just a single Omni tracking link (scripted for tracking)and a painter. The only thing they won't track well, or at all, is elite cruisers and frigs, when they are in orbit. Though they can often be dealt with at range anyways before tracking is an issue. And dealing with aggro on sentries is easy. Return to ship, redeploy. . . Allso with RR and ET (maybe the painter helps attract aggro also) on ships the drones will hardly ever get aggro anyway. Generally it's just the light drones when I'm finishing up with killing the frigs. So the whole "flight of heavies getting nuked in seconds" is just straight up bollox. Or as I said before they exaggerating to make up for weakness in inn game drone skills or actual player drone management skill. It's great that you are so 'leet. Congratulations, you win EVE. Very impressive. Really. I agree that saying all heavies die within seconds is a bit hyperbolic, but they definitely do die plenty often. Often enough that I switched from hulls that cost a quarter to half a bill, to Mauraders with their insane price tag. Even sentries are a PITA in level 4 missions. Truly they do work well, but I myself prefer heavies to sentries because I can move while they are fighting and they are much more flexible than sentries overall for the same training period.

Mr Mac Dark Goliath 58	Posted - 2015.05.30 13:40:53 - [551] - Quote Amanda MonteCarlo wrote: Couple of fun facts about drones - current stats compared to other weapon systems - no skill bonuses applied. Tracking: bouncer - 0.019 1400's - 0.009 curator - 0.028 tachyon beam - 0.014 warden - 0.012 425 rail - 0.01 Yup 2x the tracking than large guns (except wardens) - maybe more tracking nerfs are required? Damage: 0 lvl skills, faction medium range ammo(you need it to have similiar range as drones). bouncer - 24dps - 36+54km range 1400's with titanium sabot - 13dps - 48+35km range Tachyon with standard - 16dps - 53+20km range Curator - 26dps - 42+12km range 425 rail with lead- 14dps - 58+24km range Warden - 22dps - 60+42km range Eve if you count hat domi has 7.5 effective drones vs 8-10 effective turrets of battleships the damage at range is way better for drones boats. Maybe DPS should be decreased a bit more. Also projectiles suck, AC's need more range - barrage would be ok-ish if it had +100% fallof and selectable damage, and arty can't fit on anything. Then make all weapon hardpoints destroyable. Lock a turret/launcher then destroy and see what will happen later. Drones very fragile
Mr Mac Dark Goliath 58	Posted - 2015.05.30 13:44:25 - [552] - Quote As mission runner in Dominix. -1 to this adjustments sorry.
ashley Eoner 477	Posted - 2015.05.30 21:00:38 - [553] - Quote Mr Mac wrote: Amanda MonteCarlo wrote: Couple of fun facts about drones - current stats compared to other weapon systems - no skill bonuses applied. Tracking: bouncer - 0.019 1400's - 0.009 curator - 0.028 tachyon beam - 0.014 warden - 0.012 425 rail - 0.01 Yup 2x the tracking than large guns (except wardens) - maybe more tracking nerfs are required? Damage: 0 lvl skills, faction medium range ammo(you need it to have similiar range as drones). bouncer - 24dps - 36+54km range 1400's with titanium sabot - 13dps - 48+35km range Tachyon with standard - 16dps - 53+20km range Curator - 26dps - 42+12km range 425 rail with lead- 14dps - 58+24km range Warden - 22dps - 60+42km range Eve if you count hat domi has 7.5 effective drones vs 8-10 effective turrets of battleships the damage at range is way better for drones boats. Maybe DPS should be decreased a bit more. Also projectiles suck, AC's need more range - barrage would be ok-ish if it had +100% fallof and selectable damage, and arty can't fit on anything. Then make all weapon hardpoints destroyable. Lock a turret/launcher then destroy and see what will happen later. Drones very fragile I find it interesting that Amanda is comparing t2 sentry drones against guns using t1 ammo. Thus negating most of the benefits of using t2 turrets. Excluding skills also makes the turrets look worse as drones don't have a skill to increase tracking speed. It's almost like she's intentionally gimping the turets in the comparison for some sort of agenda. I use arties quite fine thank you. I even use ACs in certain pvp fits.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 678	Posted - 2015.05.30 21:22:59 - [554] - Quote Sorry for being late to this one but why were the Gardes ever considered in dire need of a nerf again? It must have escaped me that everyone I know was raging on how terrible overpowered those Armageddon, Nestor, Navy Dominix, Dominix and Rattlesnake fleets are there were constantly yoloing all over nullsec, lowsec and w-space.. Anyone else heard about those? No? Me neither! So why are you nerfing sentry drones again and can we get another ship slot for the Armageddon, Nestor, Dominix and Navy Dominix in return with a turret damage bonus? You know, if you take away don't shy away from giving back and if one boat is too strong with battleship drones, maybe don't nerf all battleships that would like to use them but the one that causes trouble. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2217	Posted - 2015.05.30 21:23:53 - [555] - Quote ashley Eoner wrote: I find it interesting that Amanda is comparing t2 sentry drones against guns using t1 ammo. Thus negating most of the benefits of using t2 turrets. Excluding skills also makes the turrets look worse as drones don't have a skill to increase tracking speed. It's almost like she's intentionally gimping the turets in the comparison for some sort of agenda. I use arties quite fine thank you. I even use ACs in certain pvp fits. And yet they failed to mention the biggest thing that makes Sentries OP with tracking, called sig resolution.
Steppa Musana Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.05.30 22:20:19 - [556] - Quote Wow another drone nerf? Sentries and drones arent even op... its just laziness. Its easy to fly so people do it, and since its easy its effective for most players who arent good. When really those drone boats can be outmatched and countered easily
Bailian Moxtain North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 25	Posted - 2015.05.30 23:03:18 - [557] - Quote All these mission-peeps.. Have you ever heard of Ishtar Online? Well youre playing it and it sucks
Maxi Dap University of Caille Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2015.05.30 23:12:17 - [558] - Quote Bailian Moxtain wrote: All these mission-peeps.. Have you ever heard of Ishtar Online? Well youre playing it and it sucks and how many of those Ishtar fleets use Garde's as main drone?
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 745	Posted - 2015.05.30 23:33:29 - [559] - Quote Bailian Moxtain wrote: All these mission-peeps.. Have you ever heard of Ishtar Online? Well youre playing it and it sucks Stop flying the way your enemy wants you to and it would suck less. This is a classic case of people simply being unwilling to adapt. It's easy to get battleships to outrange sentries, and it so happens that sentries that don't come out of a rattlesnake are made of cardboard. Yes, they can warp on top of you, but then they have to abandon and redeploy their sentries while you microjump and do it again. Unless you are somehow being hard tackled by ships that rely on kiting tactics you have no reason to stay in their engagement area. If the ishtars are that prevalent then it certainly seems like devoting one or two members of a fleet to dealing with it is worth the trouble. But... Battleships are slow and unpopular for PvP, and drones don't make the shiny killmails so obviously it's an impossible to solve problem. Missioners deserve to have nice things too.
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 282	Posted - 2015.05.31 00:27:45 - [560] - Quote I like that this is now in the patch notes despite all the negative feedback and almost no conversation from devs

DEFANDER The Forbidden Few 10	Posted - 2015.05.31 01:18:19 - [561] - Quote Hakaari Inkuran wrote: I like that this is now in the patch notes despite all the negative feedback and almost no conversation from devs Shh, it's weekend. They don't work in the weekends, or so "some" DEV replied (only one for .?. days). Well, the patch day is in 2-3 days. "Easy to ride the waves" until then, and after the nerfs hit the "open market" and subs go down, then they probably will have the time to consider the feedback and 'come up' with a convincing argument.
ashley Eoner 477	Posted - 2015.05.31 03:16:57 - [562] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: ashley Eoner wrote: I find it interesting that Amanda is comparing t2 sentry drones against guns using t1 ammo. Thus negating most of the benefits of using t2 turrets. Excluding skills also makes the turrets look worse as drones don't have a skill to increase tracking speed. It's almost like she's intentionally gimping the turets in the comparison for some sort of agenda. I use arties quite fine thank you. I even use ACs in certain pvp fits. And yet they failed to mention the biggest thing that makes Sentries OP with tracking, called sig resolution. Tachyon signature resolution 400, Mega pulse laser signature resolution 400. Curator signature resolution 400. Want to try that again? No mention of the drones taking time to lock and fire either? When you tell a drone to shoot it takes a couple seconds before it actually fires. Hence the signature radius stat.
Elsa Hayes Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 68	Posted - 2015.05.31 07:33:15 - [563] - Quote Bailian Moxtain wrote: All these mission-peeps.. Have you ever heard of Ishtar Online? Well youre playing it and it sucks The reason for Ishtar online are the full complement of BS sized weaponry on a cruiser hull. The sensible way to nerf that would be to make the cruiser either unable to use those "oversized" weapons or make sure it can not use the maximum number. Reducing the bandwidth of the Ishtar and VNI to 100 would be the best method imo because if you nerf the sentries as it is currently planned the meta will just shift to using more tracking links/enhancers on the Ishtar fleets and Ishtar online will remain the core problem would not be addressed at all. A 20% damage nerf (on sentries) however would only affect the main culprits of the current meta. To exclude heavy drones you could grant the Ishtar a special bonus -20% bandwidth usage for heavy drones for example now it could still field 5 heavies, the bandwidth for heavy drones in general would not be touched and it would receive a 20% damage nerf on sentries. You could apply a similar fix to the VNI if needed.
Elsa Hayes Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 68	Posted - 2015.05.31 07:43:10 - [564] - Quote Or you could do it the other way around and increase bandwidth usage for all sentries to 30 per drone. Then you would have to adjust drone bay and bandwidth on several hulls, mainly BS sized ones and the affect would be the same. Additional post since the stupid forum refused to allow me to edit my previous post.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1315	Posted - 2015.05.31 11:00:16 - [565] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: Bailian Moxtain wrote: All these mission-peeps.. Have you ever heard of Ishtar Online? Well youre playing it and it sucks Stop flying the way your enemy wants you to and it would suck less. This is a classic case of people simply being unwilling to adapt. It's easy to get battleships to outrange sentries, and it so happens that sentries that don't come out of a rattlesnake are made of cardboard. Yes, they can warp on top of you, but then they have to abandon and redeploy their sentries while you microjump and do it again. Unless you are somehow being hard tackled by ships that rely on kiting tactics you have no reason to stay in their engagement area. If the ishtars are that prevalent then it certainly seems like devoting one or two members of a fleet to dealing with it is worth the trouble. But... Battleships are slow and unpopular for PvP, and drones don't make the shiny killmails so obviously it's an impossible to solve problem. Missioners deserve to have nice things too. I like many of your posts but this one is just wrong. Fleet level PvP over strategic assets is ruthlessly Darwinian. Fleets are condensed, battered, reassessed until only the very best remain, unfortunately for too long that has resulted in three choices: Ishtars, severely outblobbing or a massive overspend to questionable effectiveness. Given finite resources (pilots and isk) it's obvious where people go. It's not as simple as 'devoting one or two people to deal with it'. Let me give it some perspective - ishtars commanded (this was a nerf or two ago) so much firepower that double plated domis were being alpha'd off field at 100km away. Every 4 seconds, a domi exploded. Return fire was less effective because of the targets speed and sig. Believe me, the Ishtar issue was never laziness in the part of players, it was the best winning move 95% of the time. We hate ishtars, hate flying them and hate fighting them - however that takes a back seat to winning the war. The problems remain: too much tank, range, application, speed, too low sig, too easy to fit and too much damage. The thing is, they're not dealing with the hulls. The current approach STILL leaves today's 'best' option the 'best' tomorrow whilst hurting a bunch of other hills needlessly.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 720	Posted - 2015.05.31 11:14:55 - [566] - Quote afkalt wrote: Maxi Dap wrote: Cruiser sized hull 700+ dps out ot 65km range application This is literally everything that's wrong with them. And by the way, Sleipnirs can do those sites roughly that fast. Cruisers Online, bruh. Mike Voidstar wrote: I don't know.... Surely there are range bonuses ships that can fit sensor boosters and tracking enhancers to outrange sentries and just blap them from the sky? Find us a Zealot or an Eagle setup that would be competitive at Ishtard ranges, damage and EHP levels - the Zealot especially. http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Healthy, balanced gaem Quote: Rohk's seem like they could hit out further than you could get a sentry to go. Stop. Elsa Hayes wrote: A 20% damage nerf (on sentries) however would only affect the main culprits of the current meta. Check the base attributes for all maybe? Against TACHYON BEAMS maybe? Broken system getting fixed - So It Is, So It has Always Been - sooner or later, or later when activity numbers are dropping to record lows of the past 7 years due to the stale taste in one's mouth of being lodged between Ishtars and (Super)caps Online. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Khan Wrenth Hedion University Amarr Empire 163	Posted - 2015.05.31 11:32:29 - [567] - Quote I'm not going to go into a full-on rant again, but sentries do not belong in the game. They combine most if not all of the best advantages with none of the disadvantages of other weapon systems. The few disadvantages they have, the clever playerbase managed to turn into other strengths. Forget DPS, their numerous upsides are not mitigated by any in-game mechanic, hence why they need to be removed completely. Normal drones are balanced enough because their ability to be destroyed is real. Their travel time is real. They have real disadvantages. But sentries are just the go-to thing for way too many scenarios. That said I don't agree with this nerf because it just doesn't make much sense (mainly because the battleships that field these weapons as primaries need their due as well). If you want to bring sentries in-line, you're going to have to change how they work. Sentries are a unique drone system, as such, they need special rules to keep them balanced that other drones do not have to contend with. My idea for this is capacitor. Each time a sentry drone fires, it takes cap from the trigger ship just like a turret. To throw a quick number to the wind and get the discussion rolling, let's say 30 cap per sentry. NO skill to decrease it, NO module to mitigate it. That means they have to divide their energy between running their active tank, their prop mod, and their primary weapon system just like every other ship in the game. And that means they can be capped out. And if they assign too many sentries to a small ship that doesn't have the cap to handle it, it caps itself out. Alpha doctrines suddenly need a bigger ship to handle the cap requirements, and probably a sensor booster buddy to help them lock. Balance. Ishtars will have a much bigger problem fielding and wielding sentries compared to the drone BS's that use them. They CAN still do it, but they'll have to devote a lot of resources to maintain their cap. Possibly use armor tanking instead of shield and devote a mid or two to cap regen or booster. It's either that or remove sentry drones completely until the devs can figure out another way to balance them. But it's too much DPS at too far a range with too many EWAR immunities and no cap and no ammo and....well you get the idea. If you want to fix sentries, fix 'em. Don't beat around the bush, just get it done and over with. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1318	Posted - 2015.05.31 12:27:45 - [568] - Quote I still don't think they're broken, not /that/ broken. The other ships have more realistic counters. We don't need to toss the baby out with the bath water, CCP does that too often. It's the application bonuses hills primarily with issues and the HAC more than the domi.
unidenify Plundering Penguins 113	Posted - 2015.05.31 17:36:59 - [569] - Quote I wonder if we can remove drone control range bonus from Ishtar and change it to armour repair bonus small change I think
Maxi Dap University of Caille Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2015.05.31 17:45:12 - [570] - Quote I don't like these changes if that wasn't clear up until now..... but really the only bad thing here is the Garde nerf. The range on gardes is already less then reasonable. With 3 drone range modules on the Ishtar with perfect skills it has a 50km optimal, and at the same time that means that the speed and tank is not in the ranges that people complain about. The problem is the long range sentries, warden goes up to 125km and bouncers hit to 77 in optimal. If those ranges would be brought down to below 60km with 30km falloff tops, it would help with all the issues that people are having in pvp without gimping pve boats to hell and back. That would keep me smiling.

ashley Eoner 477	Posted - 2015.05.31 19:06:38 - [571] - Quote Maxi Dap wrote: I don't like these changes if that wasn't clear up until now..... but really the only bad thing here is the Garde nerf. The range on gardes is already less then reasonable. With 3 drone range modules on the Ishtar with perfect skills it has a 50km optimal, and at the same time that means that the speed and tank is not in the ranges that people complain about. The problem is the long range sentries, warden goes up to 125km and bouncers hit to 77 in optimal. If those ranges would be brought down to below 60km with 30km falloff tops, it would help with all the issues that people are having in pvp without gimping pve boats to hell and back. That would keep me smiling. No the real issue is the Ishtar and my evidence is this entire thread. Even the fellow advocating removing sentry drones completely is really just ranting against the Ishtar. Someone's tiericide of the ishtar didn't go right and CCP was warned when the changes were announced. Typical CCP they ignored the warnings and pushed on with the release (past examples supers titans etc). Now instead of fixing the broken hull CCP does it's typical thing and tries to nerf the hull's chosen weapon to the point that other hulls using the same weapon system become semi worthless. Then later on CCP will get around to nerfing the actual ishtar at a later time. Much like the tengu and many other nerfs we've seen over the last decade.
Fergus Runkle Truth and Reconciliation Council 57	Posted - 2015.05.31 20:04:01 - [572] - Quote Isn't the real issue the Drone Damage Amps? Drone ships were not (that I remember) classed as OP before the introduction of those modules. But their bonus's were setup to give them a good and competitive damage output without DDA's because they (the DDA's) did not exist at the time. Since the DDA's arrive we have seen use of drone ships spike. Are the DDA's more trouble than they are worth?
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 822	Posted - 2015.05.31 21:14:51 - [573] - Quote Fergus Runkle wrote: Isn't the real issue the Drone Damage Amps? Drone ships were not (that I remember) classed as OP before the introduction of those modules. But their bonus's were setup to give them a good and competitive damage output without DDA's because they (the DDA's) did not exist at the time. Since the DDA's arrive we have seen use of drone ships spike. Are the DDA's more trouble than they are worth? Also omni tracking enhancers and the rest of the massive expansion of options for drones. Personally, I think that if you pulled a nerf to omni tracking modules such that they are 50% as effective, drones would be closer to properly balanced, as the issue if a combination of excess projection and high DPS. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
ashley Eoner 477	Posted - 2015.05.31 21:59:12 - [574] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Fergus Runkle wrote: Isn't the real issue the Drone Damage Amps? Drone ships were not (that I remember) classed as OP before the introduction of those modules. But their bonus's were setup to give them a good and competitive damage output without DDA's because they (the DDA's) did not exist at the time. Since the DDA's arrive we have seen use of drone ships spike. Are the DDA's more trouble than they are worth? Also omni tracking enhancers and the rest of the massive expansion of options for drones. Personally, I think that if you pulled a nerf to omni tracking modules such that they are 50% as effective, drones would be closer to properly balanced, as the issue if a combination of excess projection and high DPS. They already nerfed the crap out of omni tracking links. That's why faction links aren't worth it over t2 as there's only 1 point in percentage difference... Not to mention that CCP nerfed drones in anticipation of the modules being released. People have been whining that drones are OP since they were first introduced. It's the ishtar hull bonuses combined with the bandwidth to use 5 sentry drones that is the issue. On the vast majority of other hulls it's not even an issue as drones are in line with other battleship class weapons. It's always been silly to give a well tanked, small sig, fast cruiser battleship class weapons. That's why the rest of the HACs aren't using large turrets...
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1176	Posted - 2015.06.01 01:16:12 - [575] - Quote Fergus Runkle wrote: Isn't the real issue the Drone Damage Amps? Drone ships were not (that I remember) classed as OP before the introduction of those modules. But their bonus's were setup to give them a good and competitive damage output without DDA's because they (the DDA's) did not exist at the time. Since the DDA's arrive we have seen use of drone ships spike. Are the DDA's more trouble than they are worth? that is the key tipping point Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
StuRyan Space Mutts Dramatic Exit. 56	Posted - 2015.06.01 01:41:20 - [576] - Quote Still the problem I see is that if you train your character to be a specialist drone boat pilot with sentries, good on you. I'd prefer to see sentries have a penalty such as +50% to ship signature which is reduced per level of a skill Sentry stabilization or something silly. I've never had an issue with the AoE titan, drone balls, SC's and Carriers, sub cap dreads etc. If you change one bottleneck you create another somewhere else and really CCP should be looking more into trying to influence the players as apposed to taking the easy route 99 times out of 100 to fix something that has been created through time, effort and a lot of practice. Ishtar drone PVP fits work because time as been spent perfecting it. I am really dissapointed the CSM can't see past their own agenda at times.
Kinete Jenius Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2015.06.01 04:57:09 - [577] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Fergus Runkle wrote: Isn't the real issue the Drone Damage Amps? Drone ships were not (that I remember) classed as OP before the introduction of those modules. But their bonus's were setup to give them a good and competitive damage output without DDA's because they (the DDA's) did not exist at the time. Since the DDA's arrive we have seen use of drone ships spike. Are the DDA's more trouble than they are worth? Also omni tracking enhancers and the rest of the massive expansion of options for drones. Personally, I think that if you pulled a nerf to omni tracking modules such that they are 50% as effective, drones would be closer to properly balanced, as the issue if a combination of excess projection and high DPS. Well having used a variety of ships and doctrines running vanguards over the last +2.5 years I'd like to share some of my experiences of turrets vs drone boats. First off I'd like to note that the incursion community I commonly see James in is Warp To Me and they don't allow drone damaged based boats. They do allow some drone boats but they have to rely on turrets for most of the dps output. WTM's reasoning is that turreted ships apply superior DPS in a superior manner (according to them and James). James personally argued against me bringing a drone DPS heavy boat because drones were inferior dps. So I am quite amused to see James is here declaring that drone dps suddenly now has an "excess of projection and high dps". Second off I've ran two battleships in my fleet that had tracking based bonuses (nightmare and dominix). Since gardes are supposed to be the short ranged drone it's not fair to compare it to tachyons. So lets do a quick comparison of a garde II equipped VG domi vs a mega pulse laser equiped NM. All skills V with no implants 4x dda vs 4x heat sink Megapulsemare with imperial multifrequency and 2x TC tracking scripts = .095 tracking 971 dps (1116 overheat) conflag is .067 tracking 1083 dps (1246 overheat) Dominix with garde IIs and 2x tracking scripts hits .081 tracking 748 dps At range scorchmare with 2x tc tracking and 1x optimal = .071 tracking with 50.7 km optimal 774 dps (890 Overheat) Domi with garde Iis and 2x tracking with 1x optimal = .081 tracking with 47.4 km optimal 748 dps What do we see here? When comparing drone boat vs turret boat in a semi apples to apples comparison we see that drones themselves aren't terribly out of whack. What is interesting is once you add in implants the drone boat sees NO improvement in dps while the turreted ship sees massive improvements in DPS. Suddenly up close numbers for the Nightmare changes to .101 tracking with 1095 dps (1259 overheat) conflag becomes .071 at 1222 dps (1405 overheat) At ranged values for the scorchmare changes to .076 tracking with 873 dps (1004 overheat) Now if you compare garde II capability on a non tracking/range bonused hull then things go south quickly for drones. SO basically in short it seems the only time gardes are competitive is when using one of two hulls. One of those hulls of course is the ishtar which people spent the entire thread complaining about and which never actually uses gardes. I'm too lazy to go through and do the math for the other sentry drones.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 746	Posted - 2015.06.01 07:29:44 - [578] - Quote Yes, people got their panties all twisted because someone realized drone assist actually works, and drones got some equipment so that drone boats had similar options to turret boats. What's sad is that there is still much love needed to drones to make them far less painful to wrangle to the drone user. Yet here we are getting the Devs to nerf drones back into third class citizen status. People will always complain about whatever is killing them. Sentries do present challenges that don't fit neatly into the box that most PvP pilots want to fly in. They are in no way over powered.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 823	Posted - 2015.06.01 07:30:54 - [579] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: Yes, people got their panties all twisted because someone realized drone assist actually works, and drones got some equipment so that drone boats had similar options to turret boats. What's sad is that there is still much love needed to drones to make them far less painful to wrangle to the drone user. Yet here we are getting the Devs to nerf drones back into third class citizen status. People will always complain about whatever is killing them. Sentries do present challenges that don't fit neatly into the box that most PvP pilots want to fly in. They are in no way over powered. So, how do you counter massed ishtars, with no more than 150% the cost? Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Kinete Jenius Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 28	Posted - 2015.06.01 07:32:59 - [580] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Mike Voidstar wrote: Yes, people got their panties all twisted because someone realized drone assist actually works, and drones got some equipment so that drone boats had similar options to turret boats. What's sad is that there is still much love needed to drones to make them far less painful to wrangle to the drone user. Yet here we are getting the Devs to nerf drones back into third class citizen status. People will always complain about whatever is killing them. Sentries do present challenges that don't fit neatly into the box that most PvP pilots want to fly in. They are in no way over powered. So, how do you counter massed ishtars, with no more than 150% the cost? I would nerf the ishtar into line with the other HACs.. Then I'd take bets around the office as to what will be the replacement target for all the rage.

afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1322	Posted - 2015.06.01 07:57:29 - [581] - Quote They might be - I lean towards probably not - but with the state of certain hulls it isn't possible to tell for sure. My biggest problem with the drone ships as a whole is that the fittings are far too generous. For example sitting large long range guns on any other battleship pretty much takes all the grid and/or needs fitting mods. Drone ships can stick in long range drones and have 100% of grid left for tank/neuts. There are so many ways to correct this - but we'll need to wait on CCP looking at it.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1322	Posted - 2015.06.01 08:35:12 - [582] - Quote James Baboli wrote: Mike Voidstar wrote: Yes, people got their panties all twisted because someone realized drone assist actually works, and drones got some equipment so that drone boats had similar options to turret boats. What's sad is that there is still much love needed to drones to make them far less painful to wrangle to the drone user. Yet here we are getting the Devs to nerf drones back into third class citizen status. People will always complain about whatever is killing them. Sentries do present challenges that don't fit neatly into the box that most PvP pilots want to fly in. They are in no way over powered. So, how do you counter massed ishtars, with no more than 150% the cost? Well...I was going to say if they gave cerbs omni damage instead of the super-flavour kinetic lock - they'd stand a shot at long ranges. But they would also need double rigors or lose the applied damage war (no rigors means 45.7% application, rigors are 61.9%) hilariously thus giving the ishtar 14% more EHP available. Of course even WITH rigors the bloated caldari sig means they STILL lose the damage applied war, just not quite as badly. Worse still, if skirmish links are on both sides, the ishtars still do more damage across a wide breadth of range. And that's MWD ishtars, AB is much, much worse. So not even cerbs altered to be able to do omni damage could remotely compete. Perhaps cerbs with omni damage and double rigor II bonuses baked into the hulls.... Goes to show just how far out there ishtars currently are, really. The power creep needed to bring other HACs up is stupid. So damned stupid it demonstrates just how hard a nerf these goddamned hulls really need. The make the old Drake look like a a kestrel.
Kinete Jenius Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 28	Posted - 2015.06.01 08:41:15 - [583] - Quote afkalt wrote: They might be - I lean towards probably not - but with the state of certain hulls it isn't possible to tell for sure. My biggest problem with the drone ships as a whole is that the fittings are far too generous. For example sitting large long range guns on any other battleship pretty much takes all the grid and/or needs fitting mods. Drone ships can stick in long range drones and have 100% of grid left for tank/neuts. There are so many ways to correct this - but we'll need to wait on CCP looking at it. Well see the problem is you're not looking at the entire picture. Sure you can fit the drones easier but you're unable to overheat them or use implants to increase effectiveness. Your dps is also left hanging out in the open to be shot off the field (which in some situations can be a positive). What you're stating is one of the positives that helps to counter the negatives. EDIT : I have no issues fitting large long range guns on most of my fits without fitting mods. So I'm curious what you're trying to do that requires fitting mods.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1322	Posted - 2015.06.01 09:08:12 - [584] - Quote Tachs, 1400s and a tank are a total bastard to fit save the odd pirate boat. Tell you what, find me a ship and fit which can lay a similar amount of applied damage (remember ishtar resist profile means hybrids are out) down to ishtars at...say bouncer & curator ranges. Preferably something not onerously expensive for fleet war. Double bonus points if it is a HAC. Closest I can get is a scorch pulse apoc, but ishtars can drop drones and scurry out of their range whilst the drones keep shooting. Also when resists are factored in, there's very little between them - this latest nerf to the drones will make it slightly more viable though. Beams don't work because sniping is a joke thanks to probing. PvE is different because rats are stupid and the disadvantage of destroyable drones fades quickly in fleet warfare - ever tried killing a couple of hundred sentries...?
Kinete Jenius Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 28	Posted - 2015.06.01 09:51:16 - [585] - Quote afkalt wrote: Tachs, 1400s and a tank are a total bastard to fit save the odd pirate boat. Tell you what, find me a ship and fit which can lay a similar amount of applied damage (remember ishtar resist profile means hybrids are out) down to ishtars at...say bouncer & curator ranges. Preferably something not onerously expensive for fleet war. Double bonus points if it is a HAC. Closest I can get is a scorch pulse apoc, but ishtars can drop drones and scurry out of their range whilst the drones keep shooting. Also when resists are factored in, there's very little between them - this latest nerf to the drones will make it slightly more viable though. Beams don't work because sniping is a joke thanks to probing. PvE is different because rats are stupid and the disadvantage of destroyable drones fades quickly in fleet warfare - ever tried killing a couple of hundred sentries...? Are you trying to fit those with a double plate fit? I've already said the ishtar needs nerfed. Pretty indicative that I have no answer to your request about finding a ship and fit. I've never tried to kill 100 sentries in one sitting but I have had to kill 5 or so at a time. So it's clear you're talking from the perspective of a medium to large fleet pilot. As a solo and small fleet person I see things a bit differently these days. I actually dig the ishtar for doing stuff in "dangerous" areas.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1322	Posted - 2015.06.01 10:29:13 - [586] - Quote With everything else empty 8 tachs uses 26726.4/26250 grid on an apoc/baddon. Already 2% over. 1400 arty on a mael uses 25740/26250 leaving you 510 for everything else. 425 rails are kinder, but then gallente is the master race
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 746	Posted - 2015.06.01 10:56:16 - [587] - Quote afkalt wrote: Tachs, 1400s and a tank are a total bastard to fit save the odd pirate boat. Tell you what, find me a ship and fit which can lay a similar amount of applied damage (remember ishtar resist profile means hybrids are out) down to ishtars at...say bouncer & curator ranges. Preferably something not onerously expensive for fleet war. Double bonus points if it is a HAC. Closest I can get is a scorch pulse apoc, but ishtars can drop drones and scurry out of their range whilst the drones keep shooting. Also when resists are factored in, there's very little between them - this latest nerf to the drones will make it slightly more viable though. Beams don't work because sniping is a joke thanks to probing. PvE is different because rats are stupid and the disadvantage of destroyable drones fades quickly in fleet warfare - ever tried killing a couple of hundred sentries...? Here is where I have to point out it's a tactical problem. Sniping is a joke because of probing? How are they warping to you with sentries out? How are they instantly deploying sentries in a dispersed pattern after warping to you while tackling so you don't just microjump or warp away? Every post I see seems to assume More enemies than allies (change your tactics), flying into a prepared battlefield of dispersed drones that can't be bombed (are you trying to lose?), insisting on ships using short range weapons for the higher dps, and then complaining that you are being kitted(duh)by ships that have a limited sphere of engagement as if you had nothing different you could do. Stop engaging the Ishtar. It's harmless if you kill the sentries which just are not that tough. If you are being kitted in scrambler range maybe it's time to look at flying a different way. The reason the Ishtar is so tough is because it's forcing a change in how battles are fought. The tactics that will work against them mean you will lose against traditional setups. It's kinda like rock paper scissors, instead of rock, bigger rock, yet more rocks.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1322	Posted - 2015.06.01 11:35:21 - [588] - Quote And every 'counter' I've seen has been from people who have clearly not done battle with these ships over strategic assets. Disengaging is NEVER an option. Stop engaging the ship indeed, like that's an option in a POS fight. It's frankly pretty offensive to suggest that the entire Eve player base who actually fight these things over assets are too stupid or lazy to get a counter. The fact people think sniping is viable is hilarious. You have bubbles all over you before you know what's going on, then you're going nowhere. Also abandoning and dropping more sentries is a thing. But yeah by all mean keep deluding yourselves that the entire player base except you, the sun tzu of Eve, can't figure out the obvious counter.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.06.01 13:09:19 - [589] - Quote Obidiah Kane wrote: I learn the Ishtar then... I learn the Loki then... I learn the Svipul then... I learn the Domi then... you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills. :( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it. The loki got nerfed In what way?
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 680	Posted - 2015.06.01 15:21:09 - [590] - Quote afkalt wrote: ....Tell you what, find me a ship and fit which can lay a similar amount of applied damage (remember ishtar resist profile means hybrids are out) down to ishtars at...say bouncer & curator ranges. Preferably something not onerously expensive for fleet war. Double bonus points if it is a HAC.... Heavy beam Zealot with logi, do I win now? Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!

James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 826	Posted - 2015.06.01 15:27:05 - [591] - Quote elitatwo wrote: afkalt wrote: ....Tell you what, find me a ship and fit which can lay a similar amount of applied damage (remember ishtar resist profile means hybrids are out) down to ishtars at...say bouncer & curator ranges. Preferably something not onerously expensive for fleet war. Double bonus points if it is a HAC.... Heavy beam Zealot with logi, do I win now? H. Beam zealot comes medium close. Every fit I found for it that matched damage and range either had cap or tank issues though. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
GankYou Redshield Holding Company 453	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:20:29 - [592] - Quote ashley Eoner wrote: Mr Mac wrote: Amanda MonteCarlo wrote: Couple of fun facts about drones - current stats compared to other weapon systems - no skill bonuses applied. Tracking: bouncer - 0.019 1400's - 0.009 curator - 0.028 tachyon beam - 0.014 warden - 0.012 425 rail - 0.01 Yup 2x the tracking than large guns (except wardens) - maybe more tracking nerfs are required? Damage: 0 lvl skills, faction medium range ammo(you need it to have similiar range as drones). bouncer - 24dps - 36+54km range 1400's with titanium sabot - 13dps - 48+35km range Tachyon with standard - 16dps - 53+20km range Curator - 26dps - 42+12km range 425 rail with lead- 14dps - 58+24km range Warden - 22dps - 60+42km range Eve if you count hat domi has 7.5 effective drones vs 8-10 effective turrets of battleships the damage at range is way better for drones boats. Maybe DPS should be decreased a bit more. Also projectiles suck, AC's need more range - barrage would be ok-ish if it had +100% fallof and selectable damage, and arty can't fit on anything. Then make all weapon hardpoints destroyable. Lock a turret/launcher then destroy and see what will happen later. Drones very fragile I find it interesting that Amanda is comparing t2 sentry drones against guns using t1 ammo. Thus negating most of the benefits of using t2 turrets. Use T2 ammo and tracking halved on turrets. Thanks for the laugh! I welcome these changes, even though I have 13 Rattlesnakes hulls unsold. ...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+ Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1322	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:23:41 - [593] - Quote James Baboli wrote: elitatwo wrote: afkalt wrote: ....Tell you what, find me a ship and fit which can lay a similar amount of applied damage (remember ishtar resist profile means hybrids are out) down to ishtars at...say bouncer & curator ranges. Preferably something not onerously expensive for fleet war. Double bonus points if it is a HAC.... Heavy beam Zealot with logi, do I win now? H. Beam zealot comes medium close. Every fit I found for it that matched damage and range either had cap or tank issues though. And get dunked hard when Ishtars bum rush them and drop curators. The zealots evaporated when we did this.
Wolfensrevenge Black Aces Against ALL Authorities 4	Posted - 2015.06.01 16:51:18 - [594] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Ishtar still not fixed by this. Xaxaxa Agreed as long as you can drop sentrys on field and then burn 150km away this issue will continue. But rather than fix control range they just nurf it until its a worthless ship.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 746	Posted - 2015.06.01 17:06:30 - [595] - Quote afkalt wrote: And every 'counter' I've seen has been from people who have clearly not done battle with these ships over strategic assets. Disengaging is NEVER an option. Stop engaging the ship indeed, like that's an option in a POS fight. It's frankly pretty offensive to suggest that the entire Eve player base who actually fight these things over assets are too stupid or lazy to get a counter. The fact people think sniping is viable is hilarious. You have bubbles all over you before you know what's going on, then you're going nowhere. Also abandoning and dropping more sentries is a thing. But yeah by all mean keep deluding yourselves that the entire player base, except you the sun tzu of Eve, can't figure out the "obvious" counters. Edit: Ishtars DO have counters, however without exception those counters are so contrived and/or require so many more people that it's is simpler and more effective to simply....pilot ishtars and more logi. Yet you can use their attack on a strategic objective to your advantage. You don't have to fly into their engagement envelope, there are ships that outrange it. If you are forcing the Ishtars to move from where they set up, you are depleting a very limited resource. I'm not claiming to be the Sun Tzu of EVE. I just have difficulty accepting that a little extra tracking on a sentry drone turns it from a joke to overpowered, and that the only options for drones are to either reduce them to near uselessness or make them broken strong. Every encounter against Ishtars I hear is claiming that they are doing several things simultaneously that are mutually exclusive. Some of that is allowed for in the nature of Sentry drones, and some is not. For one, I don't see as how targeting the sentries themselves can be totally off the table. That Ishtar may have 90% Kin resist, but sure as heck the drones don't. As far as I recall, you can microjump in bubbles. You also don't have to equip your whole fleet with the same weapons. It gets more ridiculous the more people you assume are defending the POS. Ishtar is a one trick pony and if you fight it outside it's comfort zone it will lose. Regardless... If the problem is the Ishtar, deal with that. Don't cripple the weapon system so that it only works on the one ship everyone is complaining about.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1323	Posted - 2015.06.01 17:49:02 - [596] - Quote But it's not just tracking. It's tracking, effective range, tank, speed, resist profile. It has it ALL and in a single fit to boot. I said on page 1, that the problem sits in hulls. I stand by that. There may be problems beyond this with sentries but we can't tell because of the noise from the bonused hulls. The Ishtar remains an overpowered monster on steroids compared to all the peer groups. All the theory is lovely, but their on field performance and the go to ship for just about everything tells a different story. They are far too good at far too much at the same time. Go look at the likes of gorgon empire, they use them properly.
Syn Shi School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 176	Posted - 2015.06.01 17:51:34 - [597] - Quote Last night on Fintarue's stream people were complaining that light drones were OP because instead of shooting the drones that were on top of them they chose to chase the Tristan that was kiting them from 120km away.
ashley Eoner 478	Posted - 2015.06.01 19:07:45 - [598] - Quote GankYou wrote: Use T2 ammo and tracking is decreased even further on turrets. Thanks for the laugh! I welcome these changes, even though I have 13 Rattlesnakes hulls unsold. On some weapon systems there's a minor decrease in tracking. What makes me laugh is you're ignoring the post showing gardes have inferior stats when compared to other similar ranged turrets.
GankYou Redshield Holding Company 454	Posted - 2015.06.01 20:42:14 - [599] - Quote "Minor increase". People don't seem to play the game, and when they do they play in Ishtars, Gilas, Rattlesnakes. Drones are the new missiles, but only for brain-dead PvP. ...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+ Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
Electra Magnetic Old Spice Syndicate Intrepid Crossing 24	Posted - 2015.06.01 21:33:20 - [600] - Quote This should have been thought out more. Nerfing an entire weapon system because of imbalance caused by one hull is backwards logic. There is nothing wrong with sentry drones. You take the additional risk to have your guns outside your ship vulnerable to bombs, smartbombs, and other ships, you should be rewarded for that risk with a benefit such as the extra damage they offer. What happened to the CCP that was like "risk reward". Now you are taking the reward away and leaving only risk to the pilots that use this weapon system. stupid. Fine, fix the ishtar by removing some bandwidth or drone capacity, but don't make all the other hulls that use sentries useless because you nerfed the range, tracking, and damage of their weapons of choice. Its not like new pilots cannot train them. If someone told me that missiles would get a 20% range nerf and have a 50% chance of missing, I wouldnt bother training them and using them either.

Scott Webb Scott Webb Corp 15	Posted - 2015.06.01 21:37:49 - [601] - Quote The contempt you show for your customer base in your agenda for Nomalising and collectivism must be hemoraging your player base.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.06.01 21:58:57 - [602] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone! For our Carnyx release at the beginning of June we're planning on making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones, part of our ongoing process of massaging drone combat into a healthier place in the meta. These are a very specific and limited set of changes that we believe will benefit the game, but it's important to know that these are explicitly not intended to be a "once and for all" fix for every problem related to sentries. There's no such thing as a balance silver bullet. The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas. Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! Geez you guys been on a nerfing rampage lately. First there was the T3D's and now sentry drones.....sigh. Tell straight up Fozzie if this is gonna cripple-tize the domi as a pve boat? I have 3 accounts that I trained for the domi/Ishtar that I used for pve and I'm wondering if these changes (and the ones to come) are gonna make them NO LONGER NEEDED.
GankYou Redshield Holding Company 456	Posted - 2015.06.01 21:59:43 - [603] - Quote afkalt wrote: With everything else empty 8 tachs uses 26726.4/26250 grid on an apoc/baddon. Already 2% over. 1400 arty on a mael uses 25740/26250 leaving you 510 for everything else. 425 rails are kinder, but then gallente is the master race Correct. Has always been so. These people are oblivious. Three times the tracking, same range and higher damage than equivalents! Game meta right now is not healthy by any measure, and MegaZyd input doubling has hit battleships the most. ...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+ Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.06.01 22:08:24 - [604] - Quote Amanda MonteCarlo wrote: Couple of fun facts about drones - current stats compared to other weapon systems - no skill bonuses applied. Tracking: bouncer - 0.019 1400's - 0.009 curator - 0.028 tachyon beam - 0.014 warden - 0.012 425 rail - 0.01 Yup 2x the tracking than large guns (except wardens) - maybe more tracking nerfs are required? Damage: 0 lvl skills, faction medium range ammo(you need it to have similiar range as drones). bouncer - 24dps - 36+54km range 1400's with titanium sabot - 13dps - 48+35km range Tachyon with standard - 16dps - 53+20km range Curator - 26dps - 42+12km range 425 rail with lead- 14dps - 58+24km range Warden - 22dps - 60+42km range Eve if you count hat domi has 7.5 effective drones vs 8-10 effective turrets of battleships the damage at range is way better for drones boats. Maybe DPS should be decreased a bit more. Also projectiles suck, AC's need more range - barrage would be ok-ish if it had +100% fallof and selectable damage, and arty can't fit on anything. Nay, you can't do that type of comparision since you can't lock and destroy turrets.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.06.01 22:12:34 - [605] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones. Nice try. Then why is the zealot any more of a valid comparison? You're serious aren't you? Both the Zealot and the Ishtar are Heavy Assault Cruisers. People don't even remember, or know what ships like the Zealot, Muninn are. Good job, CCP. Serious about my first question: "I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem." We all know that the ishtar having access to sentries is stupid beyond belief (and by we I mean everyone but CCP) No one would think twice about the ranges of sentries if they were bs only and above weapons. Hell in that regard they are even underpowered compared to them considering some of the extreme ranges you can hit with rails and artys! Yet, they keep nerfing sentries into the ground to try and fix this issue with the ishtar. So my question is, what the hell are they looking at that they think sentries are still the problem? As to your post, I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove as I already agree that the ishtar is stupid OP right now. A simple solution would be to remove the sentry drone bonus on the Ishtar and make it into a heavy drone platform.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.06.01 22:20:24 - [606] - Quote Ryan en Tilavine wrote: Ive always trusted you fozzie to not need a helping hand. But here i am. Making my first ever post, since you can't seem to see the forest for the trees. Sentry drones are FINE. Leave them as they are now and just do this... The Ishtar we all want to see Gallente cruiser bonus : 7.5% to light, medium, heavy drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% to drone damage and hitpoints Heavy Assault Cruiser bonus : 5000m bonus to drone operation range 7.5% to sentry drone tracking 375 M3 drone bay 125 mb drone bandwidth The Dominix we all want to see Gellente Battleship bonus 7.5% to drone max velocity and optimal range 10% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints 375 m3 drone bay 125 mb drone bandwidth The sentry drones out of any other ship are fine. Their ranges, tracking, damage, hitpoints, and immobility feel perfect as they are now. Nerfing them will only pound other ships that would use them into the dust. If you want to take 10-15% of the optimal from gardes and give them the same falloff then cool. But leave them be besides. You're on the right track, but the Ishtar should be made into a heavy drone platform without any sentry bonus, since sentries are now been targeted because of it.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.06.01 22:40:58 - [607] - Quote Harvey James wrote: i think drones need a much stronger dps nerf .. consider reducing the RoF on sentries Another nerf happy fanatic post from the guy who wishes all ships in eve couldn't do more than 500 dps outside of 30km. You must be a miner.
DEFANDER The Forbidden Few 10	Posted - 2015.06.01 23:23:30 - [608] - Quote So, This is what we have discovered with all this posting: - Sentries are OK the way they are now. - Ishtar's are a breed between a big ass Mini-Carrier (no battleship so far comes in close to the dps output @ the same range) and an Interceptor (Low sig and high speed). - Domi's are Ishtar's big fat brothers. They are slow, bulky, and they can't even compete with the Ishtar. Will they still be viable for big fleets ? Your guys know better. - With the changes remaining the way they are in the works now: * Ishtar's will remain the dominant ship to go to in large fleet fights (cheaper then a BS or T3 - better range and damage - no necessity to retrain "Amarr Propultion V") * Dominix may still work or not, will not speculate as i have no flown one in years (Man is that ship ugly) * Rattlesnake will have the change setups away from sentries, and into heavy drones (And I'm not talking PvP here, but PvE) * Armageddon - don't know what this change will do it. Frankly i don't even think there are that many people out there that fit sentries on their geddons. I have always seen a geddon (after it was change to a mini-bhalgorn) to be usyng at most heavy drones, if at all. I change the Drone damage bonus on this ship to a ewar drones bonus. * Nestor - "nice" ship VISUAL design. But when it comes to using it for anything - NOT WORTH IT *** On any hull that does NOT have bonus to sentries tracking - sentries will be worthless. They already track for **** (without tracking links ). - This post has been running for i believe over 2 week now (?), and with the replies and discussions on the matter, the changes are still planned to go live. Who will have more and who will have less to lose after patch day ? Big fleets that use the Ishtar regularly (fleets over what - 100 ~ ?), will still use them - just change 1-2 modules. And i bet there changes have already been made and alliance mails already sent out. As well as ship contracts changed to the new fits. I mean hey, why go with a ship that costs more and does only 50-70% of the job the Ishtar does - right ? The little guys that use any of the others hulls for either PvP or PvE (primarily PvE - don't think people would use sentries on ships that don't have a bonus for them in pvp) WILL SUFFER after these changes. - There have been discussion going back and forth about the differences in the range / tracking between sentries and Large Guns. The primary things to remember here are: <> Sentries: even do they more or less damage / tracking / range - THEY ARE DESTROYABLE. You can take them down. Even more so when they are deployed by Ishtar's (why ? cause Ishtar's can't just pick them up when they start taking fire - without loosing the ship in the process) <> Guns, guns, guns: even do they require pg and cpu to fit, more or less cap to use - THEY ARE NOT DESTROYABLE (unless you forget to turn overheat off). With guns you can also stop shooting and change ammo type, witch will give you more or less optimal / fallout / tracking / cap usage / and not to mention damage. <> And not to mention projectile ammo also allows you to change damage types. <> Now, try to change the range, tracking and off course the damage type with sentries drones. Well this is were it get's tricky: You can either go back and scoop the drones up (witch takes time and puts the ship in danger), or abandon said drones and deploy another set. You can carry loads of different ammo types in your cargo. But you can only carry a set amount of sentries set's with you. And most of the time changing a set of sentries means "loosing" the old set. The problem is, we keep talking between us, and it's all for nothing. Nobody is paying attention and following these requests / complaints / what ever you want to call it. We will see after DT today.
Herpinetta Derpina Intergalactic Trade and Harm 7	Posted - 2015.06.01 23:35:29 - [609] - Quote Its obvious you guys dont listen to your fan base at all and have become arrogant even with the replys.I have endured nerf after nerf after nerf from you guys and have changed weapon systems/ships more times then i care to admit, some of which really made the game a lot more fun for me.When this nerf goes into effect tomorrow it will further hinder my ability to get pve grinding isk to fund my pvp over quickly before i smash my face into a wall from boredom.I am seriously debating on whether or not i want to continue to contribute to your paychecks.More then likely, after 8 years of good times(for the most part), i will end my sub this month.
Kinete Jenius Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 28	Posted - 2015.06.02 04:27:55 - [610] - Quote GankYou wrote: "Minor decrease". People don't seem to play the game, and when they do they play in Ishtars, Gilas, Rattlesnakes. Drones in PvP have become what missiles were/are in PvE, but only for brain-dead & OP-broken PvP. Regarding Garde II sentries: 1) Base tracking is 0.036 rad/sec. 2) A 425mm Railgun II has 0.01 rad/sec base tracking! That's 3.6 times less, and with Javelin L T2 ammo, it's 0.01 * 1.25 = 0.0125 rad/sec. Thanks for the laugh! You're comparing apples to orangutans. How about you go back to my post where I compare apples to apples? It's clear you have no interest in actual real numbers. You clearly want to stay at "base" numbers which are completely meaningless in a world where implants, overheating, and more boost turrets/missiles but have no effect on drones. I know it's dumb of me to try to have a real conversation with a troll alt named "gank you" that has a history of making wildly inaccurate assertions. I just can't help myself right now. Ishtars should lose the sentry bonuses.

Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.06.02 05:23:27 - [611] - Quote Herpinetta Derpina wrote: Its obvious you guys dont listen to your fan base at all and have become arrogant even with the replys.I have endured nerf after nerf after nerf from you guys and have changed weapon systems/ships more times then i care to admit, some of which really made the game a lot more fun for me.When this nerf goes into effect tomorrow it will further hinder my ability to get pve grinding isk to fund my pvp over quickly before i smash my face into a wall from boredom.I am seriously debating on whether or not i want to continue to contribute to your paychecks.More then likely, after 8 years of good times(for the most part), i will end my sub this month. Yea i totally get what you're saying. With all the nerfing and sudden changes, I just don't know how long my enthusiasm for eve is gonna last. CCP bought out the T3D's which was a great introduction and after hearing all the positive feedback for the Confessor, I decided to trained for it. Then CCP drops a bomb on them as soon as I finished training for the ships and now coincidentally I just finish training for 3 sentry Domis on 3 other accounts that I was gonna use for C3/C4 wormholes...sigh then CCP does it again. These sudden and often nerfs are starting to knock the wind out of me and now I'm thinking of dropping 3 accounts because of as of this nerf, they're worthless.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.06.02 05:33:37 - [612] - Quote Xavier Azabu wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: ...making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones... ...massaging drone combat... Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! Optimal nerf on Gardes is a little harsh. Maybe like 15%? No one uses them on towers or in kiting Ishtar combat anyway. The Curator and Bouncer nerf is needed. Will this finally discourage people from using the Ishtar? NOPE
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance 152	Posted - 2015.06.02 05:48:39 - [613] - Quote DEFANDER wrote: Sentries: even do they more or less damage / tracking / range - THEY ARE DESTROYABLE... Guns, guns, guns: even do they require pg and cpu to fit, more or less cap to use - THEY ARE NOT DESTROYABLE The funny part is - it's easier to destroy guns with the ship itself, than the drones. Ishtar has about 60k EHP. How much do you think its drones have? Well... TWICE as much.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1328	Posted - 2015.06.02 07:13:37 - [614] - Quote Skia Aumer wrote: DEFANDER wrote: Sentries: even do they more or less damage / tracking / range - THEY ARE DESTROYABLE... Guns, guns, guns: even do they require pg and cpu to fit, more or less cap to use - THEY ARE NOT DESTROYABLE The funny part is - it's easier to destroy guns with the ship itself, than the drones. Ishtar has about 60k EHP. How much do you think its drones have? Well... TWICE as much. Shooting the drones is only slightly more useful than defender missiles. See, here's how it really works: Bombing kinda works, however if you have enough pilots to man a bombing wing AND threaten the main fleet what is more effective is simply sticking those bombers in ishtars and alphaing the enemy off field with superior numbers. Bombers are fine if you're outmanned and outgunned and it's your only option. Of course the enemy then realises this and fans out a little but whatever. Shooting with guns is silly because you'll be getting shot back by the drones and if you can tank them, then you're better off shooting the ishtars anyway. If you can't, you're trading ships for drones and the ishtars have 2 more sets of spares and are taking no losses in the meanwhile.. When you pop drones, the ONLY time you really do it is when the ishtar fleet warps off to regroup to reduce their ability to reconnect mid fight. Alternatively if they're in range of logi, you scoop the abandoned ones to replace your own. But what do I know, I'm arguing with mission/PvE bears teary eyed because they've lost a little DPS and it's simply inconceivable to use another ship, thus the sky is falling.
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance 152	Posted - 2015.06.02 07:33:24 - [615] - Quote DEFANDER wrote: Sentries are OK the way they are now. No, I dont think so. People give the example of Dominix as a very good, balanced ship. Indeed, it is good and balanced. But its balance equation is weird: OP sentry drones are mounted on top of a mediocre hull that is T1 battleship. Did you know the battleships are **** in the current meta? Well they are. When was the last time you've seen the fleet of mighty Abaddons? Or unbeatable Mael/Rokh alpha fleet? Navy Apocs see some use, because they are the hard counter to Ishtars, but are weak otherwise. Even Machariel - the dream ship of many for years - can do nothing in the world of cruisers online and thus see not much use despite being dirt-cheap.
Louanne Barros Hole Violence Whole Squid 14	Posted - 2015.06.02 07:54:51 - [616] - Quote Skia Aumer wrote: Ishtar has about 60k EHP. How much do you think its drones have? Well... TWICE as much. Very much worse damage resists, however, with no way to improve them.
Valkin Mordirc 1083	Posted - 2015.06.02 10:04:43 - [617] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin.[/quote wrote: http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Healthy, balanced gaem Where did you pull that from? Also can you show me what that graph would look like without Ishtar? `#DeleteTheWeak`
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance 152	Posted - 2015.06.02 10:48:35 - [618] - Quote Louanne Barros wrote: Skia Aumer wrote: Ishtar has about 60k EHP. How much do you think its drones have? Well... TWICE as much. Very much worse damage resists, however, with no way to improve them. EHP means "effective hit points", resists are included.
Asa Shahni Doughboys Snuffed Out 60	Posted - 2015.06.02 12:04:36 - [619] - Quote Why do we still have a gallente cruiser hull with 5 med and 5 low ? Why promote a shield tanking approach to things that should not unless you have to sacrifice things for it ? Why don't you give the zealot or the oracle 5 mid too so they can be OP kite blob ships like this one ? Why do we have to deal with your BS instead of getting a normal 5/4/5 ship ? Leave sentries alone and sort your lives out. It's unreasonable fitting and bonus changes that are the major problem here.
stopdropandlol Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists 0	Posted - 2015.06.02 12:28:50 - [620] - Quote What if launching sentries spread them out around your ship in a fixed formation and they stay locked on to your ship, you are free to move around. Tracking could be cut down closer inline with other large weapons because you are able to manually pilot to reduce traversal to a degree. Drones are still destroyable and remote reps are viable.

GankYou Redshield Holding Company 462	Posted - 2015.06.02 12:31:36 - [621] - Quote Kinete Jenius wrote: GankYou wrote: "Minor decrease". People don't seem to play the game, and when they do they play in Ishtars, Gilas, Rattlesnakes. Drones in PvP have become what missiles were/are in PvE, but only for brain-dead & OP-broken PvP. Regarding Garde II sentries: 1) Base tracking is 0.036 rad/sec. 2) A 425mm Railgun II has 0.01 rad/sec base tracking! That's 3.6 times less, and with Javelin L T2 ammo, it's 0.01 * 1.25 = 0.0125 rad/sec. Thanks for the laugh! You're comparing apples to orangutans. How about you go back to my post where I compare apples to apples? Don't be so hurt that your 10 Domi solo Incursion operation is being impacted. A little. Be happy that drone assign are still in the game! Quote: It's clear you have no interest in actual real numbers. I don't? Numbers span my life. Sentries are balanced against Large turrets. Thank you, come again! ...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+ Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
Frostys Virpio Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1845	Posted - 2015.06.02 12:50:26 - [622] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Herpinetta Derpina wrote: Its obvious you guys dont listen to your fan base at all and have become arrogant even with the replys.I have endured nerf after nerf after nerf from you guys and have changed weapon systems/ships more times then i care to admit, some of which really made the game a lot more fun for me.When this nerf goes into effect tomorrow it will further hinder my ability to get pve grinding isk to fund my pvp over quickly before i smash my face into a wall from boredom.I am seriously debating on whether or not i want to continue to contribute to your paychecks.More then likely, after 8 years of good times(for the most part), i will end my sub this month. Yea i totally get what you're saying. With all the nerfing and sudden changes, I just don't know how long my enthusiasm for eve is gonna last. CCP bought out the T3D's which was a great introduction and after hearing all the positive feedback for the Confessor, I decided to trained for it. Then CCP drops a bomb on them as soon as I finished training for the ships and now coincidentally I just finish training for 3 sentry Domis on 3 other accounts that I was gonna use for C3/C4 wormholes...sigh then CCP does it again. These sudden and often nerfs are starting to knock the wind out of me and now I'm thinking of dropping 3 accounts because of as of this nerf, they're worthless. TLDR, I join bandwagon once something is confirmed to be above it's peer and then whine when it get's nerfed.
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance 154	Posted - 2015.06.02 13:10:08 - [623] - Quote afkalt wrote: you scoop the abandoned ones to replace your own What if you could scoop any sentry drone? That would be fun. Edit: I mean even if they are not abandoned.
Egillief Tsun Pampa Corp 0	Posted - 2015.06.02 13:35:44 - [624] - Quote > "healthier place in the meta." please be clear what meta. you are talking about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Vgy0KA6xCQ Not about ratters or missioners. definition of "Sentry" wrote: noun, plural sentries. 1. a soldier stationed at a place to stand guard and prevent the passage of unauthorized persons, watch for fires, etc., especially a sentinel stationed at a pass, gate, opening in a defense work, or the like. 2. a member of a guard or watch. So my best guess about the idea of this type of drone gameplay is "stationary". SO these drones only work if you are in near proximity. not based on "Drone range". you want a mechanic similar to a "control range". To be clear it's ok to hit something 160km+ out with Wardens but your ship has to be close so the "sentry drones" can work. if you would MWD out of that "control range" bubble the sentry drones would be rendered as abandoned. CCP, you want to change how "Drone Range" works. so you can have a "-80% range" affect on sentries. That would nerf kiting and bring a "stationary gameplay" to them. If that is at all your design goal for sentries. this change of yours will not help at all. Yo Dawg I hear you like meta. so you nerfbat just evaded that. [Ishtar, longer kite and deploy further away to have happy times] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer I Damage Control II F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script 10MN Microwarpdrive II Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I [Empty High slot] Medium Ionic Field Projector I Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I Warden II x5 please feel free to hate this fit all you want, it's just there to get the idea across. TL;DR; Did the meta change? - Not at all. It even gets harder to counter. But tracking is suboptiomal! - Ohh yes ... how ... unfortunate sigh So because that meta didn't change at all. You did this to nerf sentry use in pve. Ok fine by me but please say so. GG ccp GG.
Frostys Virpio Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1845	Posted - 2015.06.02 13:36:26 - [625] - Quote Skia Aumer wrote: afkalt wrote: you scoop the abandoned ones to replace your own What if you could scoop any sentry drone? That would be fun. Edit: I mean even if they are not abandoned. Introducing a stupid mechanic is not the way to fix balance issue. If you have enough people to scoop the drones without gettign wrecked, you might as well put them in Ishtars and kill your enemy...
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance 154	Posted - 2015.06.02 16:46:24 - [626] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Skia Aumer wrote: What if you could scoop any sentry drone? That would be fun. Edit: I mean even if they are not abandoned. Introducing a stupid mechanic is not the way to fix balance issue. If you have enough people to scoop the drones without gettign wrecked, you might as well put them in Ishtars and kill your enemy... Well you are stupid, and my mechanics is uber. I might better melt my enemy with mega pulse lazors. And what I would do NEVER is to take command of a ship named after the pagan goddess - Ishtar! Amarr victor! Burn the heretics! All hail the Imperium! On a serious note, you dont have any proofs that suggested mechanics is more stupid than sentry drones themselves. CCP claims that their stats are so hilarious by design because they have the tradeoff by being destructable. But in real combat situation, killing drones is among the most re_tarded ideas you can come up with. One solution would be to reduce their hit points considerably. But hey! why dont we just use the popular ~enthosis~ technology to hack them off the host instead of grinding through useless ehp?
Teebeutel Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2	Posted - 2015.06.02 17:54:42 - [627] - Quote The whole issue with drone balance stems from the way drone size progresses up the ship hierarchy, since you are getting the biggest size of drones on medium ships, whereas with any other sort of weapon platform you'd have take one step up the ladder to get a ship to get a weapon system that can match the same DPS output - rebalancing the drone bandwidth of cruisers and adjusting the bonusses on some of them to settle them in a more appropriate place would fix this issue more cleanly, but would require a not quite trivial amount of work to get just right. A more blunt balance pass like this one will likely still be effective as a way to tone down the power of ishtar doctrines, but it hurts other parts of the game that were fine with the state of sentries before the patch(ie sentry battleships, sentry Rattlesnakes are hurt quite badly in particular since they get no tracking bonusses).
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1177	Posted - 2015.06.02 17:57:17 - [628] - Quote Teebeutel wrote: The whole issue with drone balance stems from the way drone size progresses up the ship hierarchy, since you are getting the biggest size of drones on medium ships, whereas with any other sort of weapon platform you'd have take one step up the ladder to get a ship that can match the same DPS output, rebalancing the drone bandwidth of cruisers and adjusting the bonusses on some of them to settle them in a more appropriate place would fix this issue more cleanly, but would require a not quite trivial amount of work to get just right. A more blunt balance pass like this one will likely still be effective as a way to tone down the power of ishtar doctrines, but it hurts other parts of the game that were fine with the state of sentries before the patch(ie sentry battleships, sentry Rattlesnakes are hurt quite badly in particular since they get no tracking bonusses). like 2k+ dps rattlesnakes care.. but otherwise a valid point Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Teebeutel Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2	Posted - 2015.06.02 17:58:20 - [629] - Quote Harvey James wrote: Teebeutel wrote: The whole issue with drone balance stems from the way drone size progresses up the ship hierarchy, since you are getting the biggest size of drones on medium ships, whereas with any other sort of weapon platform you'd have take one step up the ladder to get a ship that can match the same DPS output, rebalancing the drone bandwidth of cruisers and adjusting the bonusses on some of them to settle them in a more appropriate place would fix this issue more cleanly, but would require a not quite trivial amount of work to get just right. A more blunt balance pass like this one will likely still be effective as a way to tone down the power of ishtar doctrines, but it hurts other parts of the game that were fine with the state of sentries before the patch(ie sentry battleships, sentry Rattlesnakes are hurt quite badly in particular since they get no tracking bonusses). like 2k+ dps rattlesnakes care.. but otherwise a valid point what kind of sentries do you feed your rattlesnakes? And are you fitting any kind of tank to it at all?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1331	Posted - 2015.06.02 18:19:50 - [630] - Quote I'm about 1500 with a gecko and cruise. 2k would be doable with rage torps and heat (on paper only)

Teebeutel Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 2	Posted - 2015.06.02 18:32:34 - [631] - Quote afkalt wrote: I'm about 1500 with a gecko and cruise. 2k would be doable with rage torps and heat (on paper only) Well, with the kind of application you'd be getting for that, you might as well fly a dread.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1177	Posted - 2015.06.02 18:35:11 - [632] - Quote Teebeutel wrote: afkalt wrote: I'm about 1500 with a gecko and cruise. 2k would be doable with rage torps and heat (on paper only) Well, with the kind of application you'd be getting for that, you might as well fly a dread. unbonused sentries still track better than most LR battleship guns do Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 723	Posted - 2015.06.02 18:50:13 - [633] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin. http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Healthy, balanced gaem [/quote wrote: Where did you pull that from? Also can you show me what that graph would look like without Ishtar? It is data compiled from http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2xd0vn/cruisers_online_fixed_a_graph_ccp_released/ The original can be found here http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla/ http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png Light blue are Drones, Orange - Energy Turrets, Dark blue - Hybrids, Yellow - Projectiles. CCP is wise not to release graphs with any scale, apart from proportions. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Frostys Virpio Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1849	Posted - 2015.06.02 18:56:05 - [634] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valkin Mordirc wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Healthy, balanced gaem Where did you pull that from? Also can you show me what that graph would look like without Ishtar? It is data compiled from http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2xd0vn/cruisers_online_fixed_a_graph_ccp_released/ The original can be found here http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla/ http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png Light blue are Drones, Orange - Energy Turrets, Dark blue - Hybrids, Yellow - Projectiles. CCP is wise not to release graphs with any scale, apart from proportions. There is also no missiles I guess...
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1332	Posted - 2015.06.02 18:56:59 - [635] - Quote Teebeutel wrote: afkalt wrote: I'm about 1500 with a gecko and cruise. 2k would be doable with rage torps and heat (on paper only) Well, with the kind of application you'd be getting for that, you might as well fly a dread. I did say on paper.... There are no missiles on that chart..........This one is better http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 723	Posted - 2015.06.02 18:57:02 - [636] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valkin Mordirc wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Healthy, balanced gaem Where did you pull that from? Also can you show me what that graph would look like without Ishtar? It is data compiled from http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2xd0vn/cruisers_online_fixed_a_graph_ccp_released/ The original can be found here http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla/ http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png Light blue are Drones, Orange - Energy Turrets, Dark blue - Hybrids, Yellow - Projectiles. CCP is wise not to release graphs with any scale, apart from proportions. There is also no missiles I guess... Find them. They're all colour-coded by weapon systems - CCP didn't say which one is which. For convenience sake. Of course. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Captain Merkin Debitum Naturae Drop the Hammer 2	Posted - 2015.06.02 22:34:13 - [637] - Quote as someone who both reguarly flies and goes up against mostly sentry drone based fleets I would love to see some further changes, it feels so very, very stale to be pretty much assured that no matter what fight you go to it will be based around the use of sentry drones. whilst I like their utility and damage application as well as their reliability and disposable nature, they do bore me to death. it seems that the only real way to break this cycle currently is to bomb the drones off the field using throwaway bombers or your own sentries to nail them before they nail yours. I would even go so far as to say that an ishtar "seems" far more reliable than a dommi when it comes to these fleets, and although its insurance is naff it generally has much more of a chance to survive a fight due to its smaller size, faster aligns and native HAC resists if you do not factor in logistics. I am fairly old school in what I enjoy, I like fast and furious fights at medium/short range not stagnant sentry stand offs, I consider it a treat to see other ships on the field these days and would like to see more variation in fleet compositions than the current meta calls for. Whether this is a problem with sentries themselves or the hulls that use them I cant say for sure, but one thing I know is that sentries have a very, very reliable use for a very low cost and they rarely fail to get the job done with minimal risk and effort, something needs to change to encourage more diverse fleets. All said and done however fleet doctrines will ALWAYS favor the most reliable and cost effective way of applying murder or hunkering down, nerf-batting sentries will just push people into some other cookie cutter doctrine that will then eventually fall under the same bat whilst the people spamming sentries just move on, those using them for more conventional purposes will also take the hit. My only suggestion would be to push the effective range of them down allowing more counter play, forcing engagements of this type to happen at a closer fighting distance allows more ships to shine in battle as well as more options to counter the over-bearing use of sentries. If people wish to hit out to such long ranges with their sentries then I would suggest that they fit for the job and are made to pay for that long reach, just the same as artillery fits do. Basically what I am saying is that these drone boats get a huge range at no cost, even straight out of hangar and unfitted they can hit to 50km+ with little to no problem, they need to be penalized the same way as long rage fittings for other races are to balance the field and promote diversity, not encouraged to fit tanks and still hit way out to 100km when fitted whilst still being mobile enough to dodge.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1180	Posted - 2015.06.02 23:07:18 - [638] - Quote i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Christopher Mabata The Interstellar Manipulation Consortium 372	Posted - 2015.06.02 23:16:27 - [639] - Quote Harvey James wrote: i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Worst idea on this thread so far It would be much simpler to you know, buff battleships? Theory-Crafter, Free Agent, Immortal Space Pirate. Generally Crazy and difficult to understand at times.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1180	Posted - 2015.06.03 00:02:40 - [640] - Quote Christopher Mabata wrote: Harvey James wrote: i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Worst idea on this thread so far It would be much simpler to you know, buff battleships? power creep is bad m'kay Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using

Kyra Kitsune Virus Empire 0	Posted - 2015.06.03 03:25:20 - [641] - Quote Egillief Tsun wrote: > "healthier place in the meta." please be clear what meta. you are talking about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Vgy0KA6xCQ Not about ratters or missioners. definition of "Sentry" wrote: noun, plural sentries. 1. a soldier stationed at a place to stand guard and prevent the passage of unauthorized persons, watch for fires, etc., especially a sentinel stationed at a pass, gate, opening in a defense work, or the like. 2. a member of a guard or watch. So my best guess about the idea of this type of drone gameplay is "stationary". SO these drones only work if you are in near proximity. not based on "Drone range". you want a mechanic similar to a "control range". To be clear it's ok to hit something 160km+ out with Wardens but your ship has to be close so the "sentry drones" can work. if you would MWD out of that "control range" bubble the sentry drones would be rendered as abandoned. CCP, you want to change how "Drone Range" works. so you can have a "-80% range" affect on sentries. That would nerf kiting and bring a "stationary gameplay" to them. If that is at all your design goal for sentries. this change of yours will not help at all. Yo Dawg I hear you like meta. so you nerfbat just evaded that. [Ishtar, longer kite and deploy further away to have happy times] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer I Damage Control II F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script 10MN Microwarpdrive II Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I [Empty High slot] Medium Ionic Field Projector I Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I Warden II x5 please feel free to hate this fit all you want, it's just there to get the idea across. TL;DR; Did the meta change? - Not at all. It even gets harder to counter. But tracking is suboptiomal! - Ohh yes ... how ... unfortunate sigh So because that meta didn't change at all. You did this to nerf sentry use in pve. Ok fine by me but please say so. GG ccp GG. While I disagree with most of what you are saying I want to give you a big kiss for suggesting a sentry drone abandonment range. Imagine if people had to actually stay within say 10km of their sentries. Incredible idea.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 747	Posted - 2015.06.03 04:40:06 - [642] - Quote Kyra Kitsune wrote: Egillief Tsun wrote: > "healthier place in the meta." please be clear what meta. you are talking about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Vgy0KA6xCQ Not about ratters or missioners. definition of "Sentry" wrote: noun, plural sentries. 1. a soldier stationed at a place to stand guard and prevent the passage of unauthorized persons, watch for fires, etc., especially a sentinel stationed at a pass, gate, opening in a defense work, or the like. 2. a member of a guard or watch. So my best guess about the idea of this type of drone gameplay is "stationary". SO these drones only work if you are in near proximity. not based on "Drone range". you want a mechanic similar to a "control range". To be clear it's ok to hit something 160km+ out with Wardens but your ship has to be close so the "sentry drones" can work. if you would MWD out of that "control range" bubble the sentry drones would be rendered as abandoned. CCP, you want to change how "Drone Range" works. so you can have a "-80% range" affect on sentries. That would nerf kiting and bring a "stationary gameplay" to them. If that is at all your design goal for sentries. this change of yours will not help at all. Yo Dawg I hear you like meta. so you nerfbat just evaded that. [Ishtar, longer kite and deploy further away to have happy times] Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer I Damage Control II F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script 10MN Microwarpdrive II Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I [Empty High slot] Medium Ionic Field Projector I Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I Warden II x5 please feel free to hate this fit all you want, it's just there to get the idea across. TL;DR; Did the meta change? - Not at all. It even gets harder to counter. But tracking is suboptiomal! - Ohh yes ... how ... unfortunate sigh So because that meta didn't change at all. You did this to nerf sentry use in pve. Ok fine by me but please say so. GG ccp GG. While I disagree with most of what you are saying I want to give you a big kiss for suggesting a sentry drone abandonment range. Imagine if people had to actually stay within say 10km of their sentries. Incredible idea. so long as they will engage targets at any range, I could go with sentries disconnecting when you left control range. It's silly that they don't when most of them easily reach past 60km that is base max skilled drone control range. You could probably go a long way with that change, and then making drone link augmentors just not affect sentries.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1332	Posted - 2015.06.03 07:16:30 - [643] - Quote Harvey James wrote: i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Why would you trash all the non broken HACs and what do T3 have to do with anything? And T3 with navy tank breaks WH - GG.
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance 155	Posted - 2015.06.03 07:30:29 - [644] - Quote Teebeutel wrote: The whole issue with drone balance stems from the way drone size progresses up the ship hierarchy... I see this statement repeated numerous times: "Battleship-sized weapon on cruiser is a no-no!" This explains very clearly why we see Ishtars everywhere fit heavy drones. Oh wait... And of course mounting BS-sized guns on a frigate would yield such a monstrous omgpwnmobile! Hopefully CCP would never do that.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 747	Posted - 2015.06.03 08:59:16 - [645] - Quote Skia Aumer wrote: Teebeutel wrote: The whole issue with drone balance stems from the way drone size progresses up the ship hierarchy... I see this statement repeated numerous times: "Battleship-sized weapon on cruiser is a no-no!" This explains very clearly why we see Ishtars everywhere fit heavy drones. Oh wait... And of course mounting BS-sized guns on a frigate would yield such a monstrous omgpwnmobile it will tear the fabric of space-time! Hopefully CCP would never do that. Technically you could do that with the Tristan and it's siblings using a single sentry or heavy drone. You don't see that too often though.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1193	Posted - 2015.06.03 09:24:10 - [646] - Quote Skia Aumer wrote: afkalt wrote: you scoop the abandoned ones to replace your own What if you could scoop any sentry drone? That would be fun. Edit: I mean even if they are not abandoned. Scooping active and firing sentry drones inside your hull thus bypassing shields and armour would probably not be the most sensible thing to do.
Khan Wrenth Hedion University Amarr Empire 164	Posted - 2015.06.03 09:26:29 - [647] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Scooping active and firing sentry drones inside your hull thus bypassing shields and armour would probably not be the most sensible thing to do. Well, it may not be sensible, but there is a natural precedent to doing so. Just make sure you name your ship "Leukocyte" first. Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1180	Posted - 2015.06.03 09:52:52 - [648] - Quote afkalt wrote: Harvey James wrote: i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Why would you trash all the non broken HACs and what do T3 have to do with anything? And T3 with navy tank breaks WH - GG. well you can't just target the ishtar.. and T3's were an off related tangent sort of and we've established that T3's aren't pinned too wh's anymore so have too be balanced accordingly and too be generalised too as per ccp intention. Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Skia Aumer Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC Desman Alliance 155	Posted - 2015.06.03 09:54:44 - [649] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Skia Aumer wrote: What if you could scoop any sentry drone? That would be fun. Edit: I mean even if they are not abandoned. Scooping active and firing sentry drones inside your hull thus bypassing shields and armour would probably not be the most sensible thing to do. But enthosis! Mike Voidstar wrote: Skia Aumer wrote: And of course mounting BS-sized guns on a frigate would yield such a monstrous omgpwnmobile it will tear the fabric of space-time! Hopefully CCP would never do that. Technically you could do that with the Tristan and it's siblings using a single sentry or heavy drone. You don't see that too often though. I was reffering to stealth bombers, guess I did it too stealth...
Iyacia Cyric'ai Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 161	Posted - 2015.06.03 10:30:18 - [650] - Quote Skia Aumer wrote: Mike Voidstar wrote: Skia Aumer wrote: And of course mounting BS-sized guns on a frigate would yield such a monstrous omgpwnmobile it will tear the fabric of space-time! Hopefully CCP would never do that.[/sarcasm] Technically you could do that with the Tristan and it's siblings using a single sentry or heavy drone. You don't see that too often though. I was reffering to stealth bombers, guess I did it too stealth... Issue with Stealth Bombers is more so caused by the Bombs than the Torps.

afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1332	Posted - 2015.06.03 10:44:52 - [651] - Quote Harvey James wrote: afkalt wrote: Harvey James wrote: i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Why would you trash all the non broken HACs and what do T3 have to do with anything? And T3 with navy tank breaks WH - GG. well you can't just target the ishtar.. and T3's were an off related tangent sort of and we've established that T3's aren't pinned too wh's anymore so have too be balanced accordingly and too be generalised too as per ccp intention. Since it's the only broken one, yes we can. In fact we should. Sweeping pointless nerfs should be a thing of the past. Balance with a scalpel not a sledgehammer. T3 may not be, but you can't expect CCP to redo WH content any time soon so don't hold your breath.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1193	Posted - 2015.06.03 10:58:56 - [652] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Scooping active and firing sentry drones inside your hull thus bypassing shields and armour would probably not be the most sensible thing to do. Well, it may not be sensible, but there is a natural precedent to doing so. Just make sure you name your ship "Leukocyte" first. best growly voice with soft Irish accent I don't know who you are, I don't know what you want. If it's ISK I don't have any. What I do have is a very paticuler set of skills...
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.06.03 22:57:17 - [653] - Quote Christopher Mabata wrote: Harvey James wrote: i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Worst idea on this thread so far It would be much simpler to you know, buff battleships? Agreed. Any suggestions that comes from Harvey James is bound to lead any victimized ships into oblivion as he's nothin but a nerf fanatic.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1180	Posted - 2015.06.04 01:56:06 - [654] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Christopher Mabata wrote: Harvey James wrote: i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Worst idea on this thread so far It would be much simpler to you know, buff battleships? Agreed. Any suggestions that comes from Harvey James is bound to lead any victimized ships into oblivion as he's nothin but a nerf fanatic. now i feel victimised ... theres plenty of room for appropriate amounts of both nerfs and buffs where appropriate. Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Aregos Miniamara 10th level Banzee U N K N O W N 17	Posted - 2015.06.04 19:27:17 - [655] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Hey everyone! For our Carnyx release at the beginning of June we're planning on making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones, part of our ongoing process of massaging drone combat into a healthier place in the meta. These are a very specific and limited set of changes that we believe will benefit the game, but it's important to know that these are explicitly not intended to be a "once and for all" fix for every problem related to sentries. There's no such thing as a balance silver bullet. The main goals of these changes are to further improve the intra-class balance between sentry drones (smoothing out the progression in tracking speed and compressing the damage spread a bit) and slightly reducing the power level of some sentry fits and doctrines, especially for Bouncers and Curators that are quite dominant in a few areas. Current plan is: Gardes: -25% Optimal, +66.7% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! Yeah... whatever... Drones its like stick in someone ass always itch.
Omega 3333 Aliastra Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.06.04 23:49:59 - [656] - Quote Nerf the ishtar into the ground, but do not not nerf the drones themselves. Other vessels that use drones will become negatively balanced, who would train 848t995948585 days for a rattlesnake when there is no dps light at the end of the tunnel...training effort and isk spent should always be rewarded.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 14	Posted - 2015.06.05 05:44:38 - [657] - Quote Omega 3333 wrote: Nerf the ishtar into the ground, but do not not nerf the drones themselves. Other vessels that use drones will become negatively balanced, who would train 848t995948585 days for a rattlesnake when there is no dps light at the end of the tunnel...training effort and isk spent should always be rewarded. They should give the Rattler a 500% bonus to drone hit points and damage because heavies are slow and Sentries won't be able to hit nothing unless stationary beyond 50 km (but when they do hit...it's gonna hurt)
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 92	Posted - 2015.06.05 07:45:48 - [658] - Quote This seems like you just wasted all of your times.. Ishtar is still FOTM Just remove the bonus to sentries on the Ishtar and make it a heavy drone monster like the gila is with mediums.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 15	Posted - 2015.06.06 03:36:09 - [659] - Quote Tappits wrote: This seems like you just wasted all of your times.. Ishtar is still FOTM Just remove the bonus to sentries on the Ishtar and make it a heavy drone monster like the gila is with mediums. I totally agree. I've been posting this same comment for ages......sigh ,If only CCP would listen instead of losing their hairs trying to figure out how to fix the Ishtar with sentries. Or they should just bring out medium sentries as many many others suggested.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 724	Posted - 2015.06.06 03:52:03 - [660] - Quote Harvey James wrote: i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Where the hell is T2 resists on HACs a problem? The issue is Ishtar double bonuses and the fact that it has access to sentries in the first place. T3 cruisers is another story. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]

Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1180	Posted - 2015.06.06 08:37:51 - [661] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Harvey James wrote: i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Where the hell is T2 resists on HACs a problem? The issue is Ishtar double bonuses and the fact that it has access to sentries in the first place. T3 cruisers is another story. low sig high resists make them much harder too kill giving them another reason too use over any T1 ships. Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 748	Posted - 2015.06.06 09:18:54 - [662] - Quote Harvey James wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Harvey James wrote: i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Where the hell is T2 resists on HACs a problem? The issue is Ishtar double bonuses and the fact that it has access to sentries in the first place. T3 cruisers is another story. low sig high resists make them much harder too kill giving them another reason too use over any T1 ships. Well duh, it's a T2 ship. They are just chock-a-block full of reasons to use them over T1 ships. Pretty sure it's got a medium Sig as a cruiser. It can shield tank so some mileage may vary. It's got standard T2 resists. If you think that's bad you should try one of the Amarr T2 ships that also carry the 4%/level resist bonus. I have never seen the build but legends persist of the one million EHP Damnation. I believe it. I am sure it never moved from where ever it was put into space, but those things are extremely tough. The Ishtar is fine, except apparently a bit silly with sentries. I will take it on faith that it's overpowered, I generally do not like EvE's version of PvP and prefer to make and harvest wrecks in other ways.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 724	Posted - 2015.06.06 11:03:57 - [663] - Quote Harvey James wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Harvey James wrote: i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Where the hell is T2 resists on HACs a problem? The issue is Ishtar double bonuses and the fact that it has access to sentries in the first place. T3 cruisers is another story. low sig high resists make them much harder too kill giving them another reason too use over any T1 ships. That's the point. http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Look at the damage done and tell me HACs are a problem. They have been fine since 2005, until Ishtard got Battleship-sized drones for Battleship ranges & damage, which then got bonused on top of it all. How are those Muninn fleets doing? Total non-starter to derail the discussion from the real issue at hand - drones, sentries & Ishtar. Oh, and 110k EHP, 850 DPS Gila. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Sasha Sen Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance 3	Posted - 2015.06.06 12:55:39 - [664] - Quote Ishtar still nr 1.
Rat Scout Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.06.06 13:04:06 - [665] - Quote Sasha Sen wrote: Ishtar still nr 1. maybe for pvp, for pve carriers are nr 1, chewing up anoms in deep null with sentries like cookiemonster eats cookies
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 326	Posted - 2015.06.07 00:23:44 - [666] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Harvey James wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Harvey James wrote: i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Where the hell is T2 resists on HACs a problem? The issue is Ishtar double bonuses and the fact that it has access to sentries in the first place. T3 cruisers is another story. low sig high resists make them much harder too kill giving them another reason too use over any T1 ships. That's the point. http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Look at the damage done and tell me HACs are a problem. They have been fine since 2005, until Ishtard got Battleship-sized drones for Battleship ranges & damage, which then got bonused on top of it all. How are those Muninn fleets doing? Total non-starter to derail the discussion from the real issue at hand - drones, sentries & Ishtar. Oh, and 110k EHP, 850 DPS Gila. The drones themselves aren't the problem with the Ishtar. The real brokenness with the Ishtar comes from two things: 1. The control range bonus. 2. Their T2 resists are perfectly lined up with the only weapons (railguns) that are both useable and can actually hit them. If the Ishtar didn't have the control range bonus, you could just shoot them with medium beam lasers from 110km away and they'd be completely ******. However, having 135km control range with two DLAs means they can reach a range that medium lasers cannot, which removes lasers as a viable counter. What about battleships? Well, railguns are kin/therm, so that's out. Lasers would be absolutely amazing.....but Tachyons require so much fitting that they're simply not viable. (three fitting mods or two fitting mods + faction hardeners to get Tachyon IIs on an Apoc) Artillery also has insufficient range with regular ammo, Proton L has an optimal range of 96km, and Ishtars can easily shoot from way outside that. Tremor has tracking so bad that you can't hit Ishtars with it even if they're 120km away. The only real counter to Ishtars is to use Navy Apocs, which work extremely well. The extra fitting on the ship lets you use Tachyons effectively and they tear Ishtars to pieces. Still, the fact that you have to use a navy BS as the counter demonstrates that there's a problem.
Solairen Matsuko Holding 254	Posted - 2015.06.07 22:03:15 - [667] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: DEFANDER wrote: I like how DEV's stop responding when They have nothing more to argue with. We also stop responding when it's the weekend and we're not at work. And yet to never came back and commented anyways. Not in the week plus before the patch or the time since. So perhaps his statement wasn't far from the truth.
Luzii Luxiferous Human Information Virus 0	Posted - 2015.06.08 02:45:19 - [668] - Quote Light, Medium & Heavy Sentries is an option worth considering. ...especially if Light sentries were limited to ships up to Cruiser size, Medium for BC & BS, and Heavy for larger ships. or: Drone ships had a Sentry mode high slot module - similar to the Bastion module, but for drones, of course. ...possible to change during fights, but with lock and cool down. --- The tracking and optimal nerf on Gardes seem arbitrary and does not quell outrage towards Ishtar, it only creates more anger among those who use other drone platforms. These sentries are darn near useless except if you pile on tracking and range modules... --- Also - post 666!!! :D
Lili Andedare Fast Furious and Dead 354	Posted - 2015.06.08 08:44:16 - [669] - Quote **.this.**.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 724	Posted - 2015.06.10 08:55:22 - [670] - Quote Xequecal wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Harvey James wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Harvey James wrote: i would suggest reducing the T2 resists on HAC's too partial T2 resists too make them more squishy, perhaps add a little HP, then maybe HAC fleets will be less used and might see more battleship/T1 fleets used instead, that and nerfing logi would certainly help. T3 cruisers need their T2 resists removed entirely along with their rigs too bring their tank inline with navy cruisers it might stop these 100 man T3 fleets crushing battleship fleets. Where the hell is T2 resists on HACs a problem? The issue is Ishtar double bonuses and the fact that it has access to sentries in the first place. T3 cruisers is another story. low sig high resists make them much harder too kill giving them another reason too use over any T1 ships. That's the point. http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Look at the damage done and tell me HACs are a problem. They have been fine since 2005, until Ishtard got Battleship-sized drones for Battleship ranges & damage, which then got bonused on top of it all. How are those Muninn fleets doing? Total non-starter to derail the discussion from the real issue at hand - drones, sentries & Ishtar. Oh, and 110k EHP, 850 DPS Gila. The drones themselves aren't the problem with the Ishtar. The real brokenness with the Ishtar comes from two things: 1. The control range bonus. 2. Their T2 resists are perfectly lined up with the only weapons (railguns) that are both useable and can actually hit them. Bullshit. Check the base stats for sentries and then the base attributes for medium Artilleries, Beams & Railguns and then come back to tell us the drones are not the problem. The other two "issues" are derivative and are actually working as intended. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]

afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1355	Posted - 2015.06.10 10:52:44 - [671] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: The other two "issues" are derivative and are actually working as intended. Both are valid tbh, sort either one and the the other stops being a problem. Six and half a dozen
Mariya Oktyabrskaya State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.06.10 11:33:15 - [672] - Quote Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Valterra Craven wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones. Nice try. Then why is the zealot any more of a valid comparison? You're serious aren't you? Both the Zealot and the Ishtar are Heavy Assault Cruisers. People don't even remember, or know what ships like the Zealot, Muninn are. Good job, CCP. Serious about my first question: "I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem." We all know that the ishtar having access to sentries is stupid beyond belief (and by we I mean everyone but CCP) No one would think twice about the ranges of sentries if they were bs only and above weapons. Hell in that regard they are even underpowered compared to them considering some of the extreme ranges you can hit with rails and artys! Yet, they keep nerfing sentries into the ground to try and fix this issue with the ishtar. So my question is, what the hell are they looking at that they think sentries are still the problem? As to your post, I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove as I already agree that the ishtar is stupid OP right now. The 'preview post' button is offered below, it is supplied for you to use at any time whilst writing a post, please consider using it to peruse your rant prior to making a fool of yourself by posting it.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 725	Posted - 2015.06.10 12:50:10 - [673] - Quote afkalt wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: The other two "issues" are derivative and are actually working as intended. Both are valid tbh, sort either one and the the other stops being a problem. Six and half a dozen The issue is a Battleship-class weapons system on a cruiser hull - everything else is derivative. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 354	Posted - 2015.06.10 14:16:22 - [674] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: afkalt wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: The other two "issues" are derivative and are actually working as intended. Both are valid tbh, sort either one and the the other stops being a problem. Six and half a dozen The issue is a Battleship-class weapons system on a cruiser hull - everything else is derivative. Ishtars have had "Battleship-class weapons" for ten years. That only became an argument two years ago.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1355	Posted - 2015.06.10 14:23:38 - [675] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: afkalt wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: The other two "issues" are derivative and are actually working as intended. Both are valid tbh, sort either one and the the other stops being a problem. Six and half a dozen The issue is a Battleship-class weapons system on a cruiser hull - everything else is derivative. No, that's overly simplistic. I don't see people tearing up about being pumped in the vents by ogres..... There are a lot of factors at play here, addressing any one of which would sort it. Nixing control range bonus and a CPU nerf would kill them good, for example.
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 328	Posted - 2015.06.10 15:05:10 - [676] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Bullshit. Check the base stats for sentries and then the base attributes for medium Artilleries, Beams & Railguns and then come back to tell us the drones are not the problem. The other two "issues" are derivative and are actually working as intended. This ignores the fact that other HACs get double damage bonuses to their weapons, while the Ishtar only gets one for sentries. Ishtar with Gardes with 3 damage mod, 2 range mod: 36.5km optimal, 568 DPS. Zealot with Heavy Beams with 3 damage mod, 2 range mod, faction Gamma: 574 DPS, 37km optimal. Over triple the effective tracking. Ishtar with Bouncers and same fitting: 499 DPS, 73km optimal. Zealot with faction Infrared and same fitting: 417 DPS, 70km optimal. Close up, lasers have much better stats. Further away, sentries do, but it's not a gigantic gulf. The issue is that the Zealot can't shoot past 115km at all no matter how you fit it, and neither can any other medium laser ship. The Ishtar can, so the weapon system that's supposed to counter it (EM damage against shield tank with 0% base resist and very tight CPU) doesn't actually counter it. There's also the fact that the Ishtar can effectively fit three damage mods because it's shield tanked while the Zealot really can't because it's armor tanked, (In fact, no shield tanked medium gunship with damage + damage + range bonuses exists at all) but if my two issues are "derivative" and "working as intended," then so is the issue of shield tank vs. armor tank balance. If you armor tank the Ishtar it's got ** stats compared to even the Muninn, and that ship is hilariously bad. Next, Navy Apocalypses absolutely massacre Ishtars. Of course, they cost three times as much, that's not really a "counter." Regular Apocalypses would massacre them too, if their fitting wasn't ** and it was actually possible to fit Tachyons on them. Again, you have the issue that the weapon system that's supposed to counter the Ishtar doesn't actually work for various reasons. Overall, the real problem is that if the Ishtar is 130km away from you, you can't hit it at all with anything besides kin/therm weapons. Medium lasers and projectiles can not reach, large lasers don't have a non faction hull that you can actually fit them on, and large projectiles either can't reach the Ishtar (Proton L) or can't track it. (Tremor L) This fact prevents all the counters already built into the game from effectively working. While we're on this topic, the Dominix is a actually far more serious abomination of balance than the Ishtar, but again that's not because of sentries, it's because the Dominix is a T1 ship with four bonuses. (damage, damage, range, tracking) It beats every navy BS and most pirate BS at pretty much all roles because of this, let alone other standard battleships.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1882	Posted - 2015.06.10 16:22:50 - [677] - Quote Xequecal wrote: (In fact, no shield tanked medium gunship with damage + damage + range bonuses exists at all) The cerb is the closest thing packaged with lol-heavy missiles and lol-kinetic damage bonus.
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 355	Posted - 2015.06.11 01:45:54 - [678] - Quote Xequecal wrote: Overall, the real problem is that if the Ishtar is 130km away from you, you can't hit it at all with anything besides kin/therm weapons. Medium lasers and projectiles can not reach, large lasers don't have a non faction hull that you can actually fit them on, and large projectiles either can't reach the Ishtar (Proton L) or can't track it. (Tremor L) This fact prevents all the counters already built into the game from effectively working. Well, there is one exemption, but about the time interceptors got nullifiers people stopped using them and then claimed they always sucked. Shield muninns shall save us from this pit. Praise the raven of the mind and the alpha. Or interceptors ruined that, one or the other on that.
Joanna RB Twenty Questions RAZOR Alliance 21	Posted - 2015.06.11 21:48:00 - [679] - Quote HiddenPorpoise wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: afkalt wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: The other two "issues" are derivative and are actually working as intended. Both are valid tbh, sort either one and the the other stops being a problem. Six and half a dozen The issue is a Battleship-class weapons system on a cruiser hull - everything else is derivative. Ishtars have had "Battleship-class weapons" for ten years. That only became an argument two years ago. Drone damage amplifiers. Prior to these you were lucky to break 300dps with bouncers.....
HiddenPorpoise Expendable Miscreants 355	Posted - 2015.06.11 22:44:56 - [680] - Quote Joanna RB wrote: HiddenPorpoise wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: afkalt wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: The other two "issues" are derivative and are actually working as intended. Both are valid tbh, sort either one and the the other stops being a problem. Six and half a dozen The issue is a Battleship-class weapons system on a cruiser hull - everything else is derivative. Ishtars have had "Battleship-class weapons" for ten years. That only became an argument two years ago. Drone damage amplifiers. Prior to these you were lucky to break 300dps with bouncers..... Came out a year and a half before any of this mattered, and they still were using "battleship weapons" prior.

Louanne Barros Hole Violence Whole Squid 43	Posted - 2015.06.12 03:32:14 - [681] - Quote How about new scripts for Tracking Disruptors and Sensor Dampeners to let you interfere with drone gunnery, and drone control range, respectively?
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1181	Posted - 2015.06.12 12:37:43 - [682] - Quote Louanne Barros wrote: How about new scripts for Tracking Disruptors and Sensor Dampeners to let you interfere with drone gunnery, and drone control range, respectively? or remake ecm as anti drone shutdown gear instead of what they do now. caldari vs gallente it makes sense Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 748	Posted - 2015.06.12 23:56:25 - [683] - Quote Xequecal wrote: This ignores the fact that other HACs get double damage bonuses to their weapons, while the Ishtar only gets one for sentries. This fact is irrelevant due to base sentry stats. Quote: Ishtar with Gardes with 3 damage mod, 2 range mod: 36.5km optimal, 568 DPS. Zealot with Heavy Beams with 3 damage mod, 2 range mod, faction Gamma: 574 DPS, 37km optimal. Over triple the effective tracking. Ishtar with Bouncers and same fitting: 499 DPS, 73km optimal. Zealot with faction Infrared and same fitting: 417 DPS, 70km optimal. Don't try to peddle this. Gardes? What? Zealot with IN IR may be 70km optimal, but the DPS is 365, and Bouncers have over 70 km falloff. Curators with the same 70+13 km range have 472 DPS with just two DDAs. Zealot's 51k EHP vs Ishtards 62k Enjoy your broken toy while you still can. HiddenPorpoise wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: afkalt wrote: Both are valid tbh, sort either one and the the other stops being a problem. Six and half a dozen The issue is a Battleship-class weapons system on a cruiser hull - everything else is derivative. Ishtars have had "Battleship-class weapons" for ten years. That only became an argument two years ago. They got double-bonused on the Ishtar hull. Dronebay was expanded to a static 375 m3. Sept 2013 - Odyssey 1.1 Never Forget. An extra 15, or 20% to something like Optimal ranges sways the Meta Pendulum so swift and relentless, that other ships of the same class become a non-option. Not to mention the introduction of DDA on a weapons system, meaning drones in general, that already was somewhat competitive. The solution is juuust around the corner. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Nergal Hurrian Orange Lazarus Petroleum Inc. Surely You're Joking 4	Posted - 2015.06.22 17:57:10 - [684] - Quote Tappits wrote: This seems like you just wasted all of your times.. Ishtar is still FOTM Just remove the bonus to sentries on the Ishtar and make it a heavy drone monster like the gila is with mediums. This make a lot of sense, unlike the paid CCP developer who seems to have missed the point. Ishtar sentry bonuses ARE the problem, not the DDAs. Loss of a mid slot also makes it nigh impossible to have a workable shield fit Ishtar for PvP. Rise, this is one of the most senseless and uninnovative changes to game proposed that I've ever seen. Hundreds of people are pointing out the problem, yet you manage to miss the point. Does CCP HR have a general comprehension test that a candidate is expected to fail before they get considered as hires?
Ellendras Silver CrashCat Corporation 171	Posted - 2015.06.22 18:15:59 - [685] - Quote amazing that ONLY 1 hull (take an educated guess) is responsible for nerving 3 of the 4 sentry drones pretty hard [u]Carpe noctem[/u]
twit brent Black Anvil Industries SpaceMonkey's Alliance 28	Posted - 2015.06.22 20:43:25 - [686] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: [quote=Xequecal] Don't try to peddle this. Gardes? What? Zealot with IN IR may be 70km optimal, but the DPS is 365, and Bouncers have over 70 km falloff. Curators with the same 70+13 km range have 472 DPS with just two DDAs. Zealot's 51k EHP vs Ishtards 62k Enjoy your broken toy while you still can. Smile Did you even read read what he typed? He said that ishtars are broken and need to be nerfed. Maybe you should have read the whole thing before typing.
twit brent Black Anvil Industries SpaceMonkey's Alliance 28	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:17:22 - [687] - Quote To make it easier for CCP to see the problems with ishtars i fit a munin and an ishtar in pyfa with just weapons and highlighted some of the differences. Munin Vs ishtar
Harry Saq Blueprint Haus Blades of Grass 91	Posted - 2015.06.23 00:20:07 - [688] - Quote twit brent wrote: To make it easier for CCP to see the problems with ishtars i fit a munin and an ishtar in pyfa with just weapons and highlighted some of the differences. Munin Vs ishtar lol - that is an awesome illustration of silly "balance" You hear it said all the time, but seeing it directly makes it laughable that the two theoretically = balanced
God's Apples Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 616	Posted - 2015.06.23 05:33:15 - [689] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Zealot with IN IR may be 70km optimal, but the DPS is 365, and Bouncers have over 70 km falloff. Curators with the same 70+13 km range have 472 DPS with just two DDAs. Except that the zealot gets double the tracking and that's before factoring sig resolution. All things said and done the beam zealot has ~6x the tracking speed of a sentry ishtar. The ishtar is only good because it can be minmaxed like hell in a fleet. You can fit for max dps and max tank without having to bother about application because of the 10 huginns in fleet. It's really an issue of defensive ewar (damps and ECM) having no role in larger fleets. If there is no counterplay to recons, there is no counterplay to ishtars. "Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Barrogh Habalu Forever Winter Absolute Zero. 879	Posted - 2015.06.23 08:02:39 - [690] - Quote twit brent wrote: To make it easier for CCP to see the problems with ishtars i fit a munin and an ishtar in pyfa with just weapons and highlighted some of the differences. Munin Vs ishtar Oh that's rich.



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