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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Desudes
Adversity.
Northern Coalition.
434
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:07:24 -
[91] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Zafrena Tyrleon wrote:
You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls.
More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore.
That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS. Wrong. It would encourage people to start using other ships again as the ishtar would stop being completely oppressive within its weight class.
Why would they do that? It isn't a pound for pound advantage the ishtar has over its class, it is the ability to deal damage from range while maintaining maximal transversal without adversely affecting its own dps. The only other cruisers that can do that are missile boats, which get their dps nerfed to the ground by firewalls.
Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
678
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:10:41 -
[92] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Zafrena Tyrleon wrote:
You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls.
More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore.
That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS. Wrong. It would encourage people to start using other ships again as the ishtar would stop being completely oppressive within its weight class.
Except it doesn't encourage it at all, because fundamentally the problem isn't resolved.
Your think 3% damage reduction will stop Ishtars from being completely oppressive within their weight class? There's at least 40% difference between other HACs! 
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
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Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
269
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:12:59 -
[93] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:Can the Domi have access to fighters now, to balance the fact that Ishtars get access to heavy drones and sentries?
Ok ok. I kid. Give the fighters to the sin. |
Valterra Craven
544
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 16:20:45 -
[94] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:
Quick question. How many sentys can you deploy on a domi?
Quick question. How many artys can you fit on a mael?
How quickly you change the topic from the Ishtar. 
So change the domi to the isthar, they both field the same amount.
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Don't try demagogy, it won't work.
There is no need for this. Either you can have a civil debate or you can't. Only you decide.
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Each sentry deals more damage than each turret.
Which is by design since you can field fewer of them.
Or do you remember the time when you could field 10 drones and then they adjusted things to reduce lag?
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
A Dominix with 3 DDAs can do 579 DPS at 103 + 42km ranges with Wardens.
For Maelstrom with 3x Gyros and 1400s to reach that range, you have to use Tremor, giving you 395 DPS at 108 + 44 km.
.
Or you could just switch to a raven which gets the same range and same dps with 3 bal controls.
Or you could just use tacking computers. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
273
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:24:18 -
[95] - Quote
this will not damage the ishtar's dominance, as you can still fit BS-class weapons onto a HAC, the ishtar is a T2 Attack BC
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Desudes
Adversity.
Northern Coalition.
434
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 16:24:49 -
[96] - Quote
Probably worth pointing out that if you remove sentries from ishtars, which you are on the road to doing, you have essentially removed it from fleet applications because lolsmartbombs against drones, unless you give the ishtar the Gila treatment, but if you do that, you end up with extreme conflict between those 2 hulls, which already don't see much use (Gila/non-sentry ishtar).
Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
678
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:27:22 -
[97] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:How quickly you change the topic from the Ishtar. So change the domi to the isthar, they both field the same amount.
Try to understand that Ishtar is a HAC, operating at Battleship levels.
It is not the same "amount".
Quote:
Which is by design since you can field fewer of them.
And that is fine.
Quote:
Or you could just switch to a raven which gets the same range and same dps with 3 bal controls.
Missile fleets are very situational.
I can agree that Dominix at least is balanced in this regard - a Tachyon Apocalypse matches it in both range and damage.
Quote:Or you could just use tacking computers.
Which can be fitted on both weapons systems.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
269
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:28:48 -
[98] - Quote
Desudes wrote:Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Why would they do that? It isn't a pound for pound advantage the ishtar has over its class, it is the ability to deal damage from range while maintaining maximal transversal without adversely affecting its own dps. The only other cruisers that can do that are missile boats, which get their dps nerfed to the ground by firewalls.
Its the ability to do all that without significant drawbacks while having far and away huge. Either reduce the raw power or give it real cons, I don't care. It needs a hammer either way. [quote=Iroquoiss Pliskin][quote=Hakaari Inkuran] Except it doesn't encourage it at all, because fundamentally the problem isn't resolved. Your think 3% damage reduction will stop Ishtars from being completely oppressive within their weight class? There's at least 40% difference between other HACs!
We're discussing a 20% reduction. What's 4/5? I will point out that I'd also accept a nerf to 75Mbit rather than 100Mbit. I'm npt disagreeing with your position. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
263
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:31:49 -
[99] - Quote
You cannot remove sentries from the ishtar. For the simple reason that the ishtar will lose its role as a long range ship. Look at the other HACs.
Zealot = optimal bonus
muninn = optimal bonus
eagle = optimal bonus (x2)
Ishtar = optimal bonus
All these ships are meant for longer range engagements. If you take away sentries completely.. how does the ishtar project damage? Heavies? Lol.
Travel time + missing = no one will use it and it will turn into another brawler, or some kind of weird shortrange doctrine which goes completely against the role of these HACs.
Yes the ishtar is dominating and semi-OP in large scale fights. But removing its only way at projecting the damage will turn it into the drake. Overnerfed and lost its role.
Something to consider. Nerf sentry drones down to medium turret ranges and damage to balance around the other HACs and keepit in the same class. Create a new sentry for BS. Seige Sentry drone or w/e. Give it 400+ sig resolution, more range and slightly more damage. This keeps BS doctrines relatively unchanged but keeps with BS tracking/application.
The only issue i see is with carriers.. Though having 400+ sig resolution will mean smaller ships should be able to sig/speed tank them better than current sentry mechanics.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
269
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 16:33:09 -
[100] - Quote
Desudes wrote:Hakaari Inkuran wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Zafrena Tyrleon wrote:
You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls.
More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore.
That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS. Wrong. It would encourage people to start using other ships again as the ishtar would stop being completely oppressive within its weight class. Why would they do that? It isn't a pound for pound advantage the ishtar has over its class, it is the ability to deal damage from range while maintaining maximal transversal without adversely affecting its own dps. The only other cruisers that can do that are missile boats, which get their dps nerfed to the ground by firewalls.
The problem is the ishtar has all that stuff, and oppressive raw damage, and minimal drawbacks (if any). Something has to give, I don't particularly care HOW it gives. |
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Valterra Craven
544
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:33:31 -
[101] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Try to understand that Ishtar is a HAC, operating at Battleship levels.
It is not the same "amount".
Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:
Or you could just switch to a raven which gets the same range and same dps with 3 bal controls.
Missile fleets are very situational. I can agree that Dominix at least is balanced in this regard - an Tachyon Apocalypse matches it in both range and damage.
So if you think that the domi is balanced vs a tach apoc and a raven, then why exactly do you keep bringing up the point that sentries are broken, when even you think they are balanced against other BS platforms?!
Seriously, the whole point of my posts was to point out that in the current meta the only real problem with sentries is the ishtar, not sentries themselves and to try and figure out what data ccp is looking at that makes them think otherwise |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
678
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:35:19 -
[102] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:So if you think that the domi is balanced vs a tach apoc and a raven, then why exactly do you keep bringing up the point that sentries are broken
I never stated sentries were broken, but their use on carriers is questionable and can not be balanced any other way. 
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Dentia Caecus
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:35:57 -
[103] - Quote
Why did CCP fail to seize an opportunity to make sentries a BS only platform, thereby mollifying the the major complaint by the players regrading the OP Ishtar? BS already have built in ( I shudder to use the word) balance: slow speed, deterrence by bomber fleets, other BS platforms can hit as far, etc. Instead of addressing the obvious error, the Ishtar hull bonus/or ability to use what ought to be a BS weapons system , the entire weapons system receives a nerf, the Ishtar is still OP, your customers are still upset and sentries slowly become a less and less viable weapon for any non-bonused vessel.
Fozzie, I implore you to rethink this decision. Sometimes the easy answer is the right one: either reduce the drone bandwidth on the Ishtar to 75mbit or remove the sentry bonus or make the sentries a battleship only weapon system.
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Khan Wrenth
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
156
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:37:36 -
[104] - Quote
There is only one acceptable sentry drone adjustment. Delete them from the game, they don't belong here.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Valterra Craven
544
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:39:00 -
[105] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:You cannot remove sentries from the ishtar. For the simple reason that the ishtar will lose its role as a long range ship. Look at the other HACs.
Zealot = optimal bonus
muninn = optimal bonus
eagle = optimal bonus (x2)
Ishtar = optimal bonus
All these ships are meant for longer range engagements. If you take away sentries completely.. how does the ishtar project damage? Heavies? Lol.
Travel time + missing = no one will use it and it will turn into another brawler, or some kind of weird shortrange doctrine which goes completely against the role of these HACs.
Yes the ishtar is dominating and semi-OP in large scale fights. But removing its only way at projecting the damage will turn it into the drake. Overnerfed and lost its role.
Something to consider. Nerf sentry drones down to medium turret ranges and damage to balance around the other HACs and keepit in the same class. Create a new sentry for BS. Seige Sentry drone or w/e. Give it 400+ sig resolution, more range and slightly more damage. This keeps BS doctrines relatively unchanged but keeps with BS tracking/application.
The only issue i see is with carriers.. Though having 400+ sig resolution will mean smaller ships should be able to sig/speed tank them better than current sentry mechanics.
For starters, what is the range of those other weapon systems vs their dmg outpout? Also you forgot the missle boat.. you know things that have time to target issues. Seems to me if the cerb can cope with this issue just fine then hvys or meds should also be fine for the ishtar. Further nerfs of senty drones affects other platforms besides the ishtar, and those other platforms were already balanced before hand. The problem is the ishtar, not sentries.
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Valterra Craven
544
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:41:20 -
[106] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:I never stated sentries were broken, but their use on carriers is questionable and can not be balanced any other way.
Why, there is nothing OP about a sentry carrier.
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Don't try to dodge it now. 
The only thing being dodged around here is your reading comprehension. |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
678
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 16:43:30 -
[107] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:I never stated sentries were broken, but their use on carriers is questionable and can not be balanced any other way. Why, there is nothing OP about a sentry carrier.
Aha.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
5507
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:48:46 -
[108] - Quote
Removed a racist post.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Aijle Mijleroff
Infernal Laboratory
Infernal Octopus
47
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:51:28 -
[109] - Quote
CCP Fozzie if you nerf centry some people nerf subscription on eve!
So, you smashed display attributes Drones year ago and only nerf nerf nerf. And not have brain fix this
so, CCP Fozzie, I think you not have brain. You know that this nerf kill some kinds of ships? |
Desudes
Adversity.
Northern Coalition.
434
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 16:55:40 -
[110] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:You cannot remove sentries from the ishtar. For the simple reason that the ishtar will lose its role as a long range ship. Look at the other HACs.
Zealot = optimal bonus
muninn = optimal bonus
eagle = optimal bonus (x2)
Ishtar = optimal bonus
All these ships are meant for longer range engagements. If you take away sentries completely.. how does the ishtar project damage? Heavies? Lol.
Travel time + missing = no one will use it and it will turn into another brawler, or some kind of weird shortrange doctrine which goes completely against the role of these HACs.
Yes the ishtar is dominating and semi-OP in large scale fights. But removing its only way at projecting the damage will turn it into the drake. Overnerfed and lost its role.
Something to consider. Nerf sentry drones down to medium turret ranges and damage to balance around the other HACs and keepit in the same class. Create a new sentry for BS. Seige Sentry drone or w/e. Give it 400+ sig resolution, more range and slightly more damage. This keeps BS doctrines relatively unchanged but keeps with BS tracking/application.
The only issue i see is with carriers.. Though having 400+ sig resolution will mean smaller ships should be able to sig/speed tank them better than current sentry mechanics. For starters, what is the range of those other weapon systems vs their dmg outpout? Also you forgot the missle boat.. you know things that have time to target issues. Seems to me if the cerb can cope with this issue just fine then hvys or meds should also be fine for the ishtar. Further nerfs of senty drones affects other platforms besides the ishtar, and those other platforms were already balanced before hand. The problem is the ishtar, not sentries.
Range/dps is only part of the equation. Bouncer ishtar beats zealot on those terms until you actually add transversal, sig radius, fleet warp ins, and tracking into things. Zealots will require good piloting to win, but thats a slower comp vs a faster one for you, welcome to EVE v0v
Also noteworthy: the zealots web lokis will survive, whereas the ishtars hugins will get blapped very quickly if they become a problem
Heavy/med drone doctrines would be far more vulnerable to smartbombing than missiles, which is why no one is using non-sentry drone drone doctrines.
Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
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Chip Flux
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
47
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:56:40 -
[111] - Quote
This is fantastic
Another Nerf
I am so excited.
CCP, you really know how to make this game great. |
Lady Aesir
Ghost Recon Inc
18
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Posted - 2015.05.21 16:57:18 -
[112] - Quote
Ishtar
A Cruiser should not be able to field sentries PERIOD |
Valterra Craven
544
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Posted - 2015.05.21 17:01:34 -
[113] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Don't try to dodge it now. The only thing being dodged around here is your reading comprehension. Woo, edgy and salty. Gal didn't know how relevant a Zealot is in an Ishtar discussion, heheh.
The answer is a zealot isn't relevant to an Ishtar discussion. What a thing is can be pretty irrelevant to what a thing can do, especially when talking about issues of balance. The issue is that the ishtar is more likely compared to a bs given its a capability than it is compared to something like a zealot. |
Viserion Pavarius
RESET.
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
8
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Posted - 2015.05.21 17:01:37 -
[114] - Quote
But Warden's will stay untouched? :) |
Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
679
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Posted - 2015.05.21 17:04:40 -
[115] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:Read my posts. I already think its stupid that the ishtar has access to sentries. We agree on this point. I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. Don't try to dodge it now. The only thing being dodged around here is your reading comprehension. Woo, edgy and salty. Gal didn't know how relevant a Zealot is in an Ishtar discussion, heheh. The answer is a zealot isn't relevant to an Ishtar discussion. What a thing is can be pretty irrelevant to what a thing can do, especially when talking about issues of balance. The issue is that the ishtar is more likely compared to a bs given its a capability than it is compared to something like a zealot.
Hahaha.
// Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept
//
Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
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Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
49
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Posted - 2015.05.21 17:04:44 -
[116] - Quote
At this point I'm still not 100% convinced it's the drones that are the problem. Can CCP release some metrics that show their rational for the changes? I still feel like there could be other ways of addressing this than nerfing the drones. Especially when they're strongest on ishtars and navy vexors and almost nothing else. Not saying they aren't strong when not on those platforms, but rather they are not an issue on any other platforms. If that's the case then why are we nerfing the drones and not changing the ships? |
Kaliba Mort
Patriotic Tendencies
Executive Outcomes
12
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Posted - 2015.05.21 17:06:17 -
[117] - Quote
Obidiah Kane wrote:I learn the Ishtar then...
I learn the Loki then...
I learn the Svipul then...
I learn the Domi then...
you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...
You are forgetting about the Drake. Never not train for a drake!
Ishtars, Lokis and Svipuls are not really newbie ships anyway.
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1172
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 17:06:31 -
[118] - Quote
i think drones need a much stronger dps nerf .. consider reducing the RoF on sentries
Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
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Zafrena Tyrleon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2015.05.21 17:18:31 -
[119] - Quote
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:Zafrena Tyrleon wrote:
You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls.
More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore.
That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS.
The problem with this argument is that you completely devalue pilot numbers. If pilots and ships are free and not a balance point at all, then I guess everyone should show up in Supercarriers instead and we can all go home and not worry about this. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
962
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Posted - 2015.05.21 17:21:47 -
[120] - Quote
Xavier Azabu wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:...making some moderate tweaks to sentry drones...  ...massaging drone combat...  Current plan is:Gardes: -25% Optimal, +33% Falloff, -3% Damage, -6.67% Tracking Curators: -3.1% Damage, -13% Tracking Bouncers: -3.3% Damage, -12.5% Tracking We welcome feedback as always! Optimal nerf on Gardes is a little harsh. Maybe like 15%? No one uses them on towers or in kiting Ishtar combat anyway. The Curator and Bouncer nerf is needed. Will this finally discourage people from using the Ishtar?
TrouserDeagle wrote:Quote:-25% Optimal, +33% Falloff why? because of sentry drone optimal bonuses being too good?
afkalt wrote:I think you're hurting the hulls which are not bonused for them disproportionately hard compared to the bonused ones.
No-one complains about a sentry geddon. The issues sit firmly in the bonused hulls, who will feel this less because of their already huge advantage over their peer group.
I know you like to balance the weapons and not blame hulls but in this case, it clearly IS the hulls.
I have to agree with all three of these.
Bouncers and Curators - sure. The optimal/damage/tracking to the gardes is a bit much, imo.
Also, this is going to have some pretty negative downstream effects on non-bonused hulls. Reducing, overall, the "flavor" of ships seen out an about as those hulls become further sub-optimal.
I'm right behind you
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