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Sticky:[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 701	Posted - 2015.05.24 15:58:10 - [391] - Quote Zappity wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Tyr Dolorem wrote: Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem? Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both. Um... CCP Rise wrote: First, we wanted to establish whether the problem was more about the Ishtar or more about Sentry Drones. The data makes a pretty convincing case that it really is mostly the Ishtar. While several other ships (Dominix, Navy Vexor, Archon, etc.) are making use of sentries, none of them are anywhere near as sentry reliant as the Ishtar and none of them are coming close to the overall damage that Ishtars represent on TQ. Classic. Double drone bonuses to Battleship-sized weaponry on a cruiser hull remain, though to be fair do compare base unbonused sentry range & tracking to find that they are superior to both 425mm Railguns and Tachyon Beams, hence this thread. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 701	Posted - 2015.05.24 16:38:51 - [392] - Quote Vlade Randal wrote: I think its reasonable to give sentries an overall nerf... however I agree that the Ishtar hull bonuses need to be adjusted as well. Currently the Ishtar has the following buffs: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed 10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage. Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 5000m bonus to Drone operation range 5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty In addition to the proposed changes to sentry drones, I suggest that the Ishtar needs to have the following hull bonus adjusted: "5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed" I think the tracking speed bonus to sentries needs to be removed, so that the bonus is: "5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range" The issue is glaringly obvious and you have identified, but your solution is not the right one - removing Sentry Optimal range instead of Tracking would bring them in line with the ranges that other HACs operate, while retaining Medium turret-like tracking. Even without the Optimal range double bonus, the Wardens & Curators on the Ishtar or VNI would outclass both the Eagle and the Zealot in damage at those ranges. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 647	Posted - 2015.05.25 01:10:15 - [393] - Quote Vacant Stare wrote: Why is CCP so fixated on nerfing modules when they have 20 pages of comments telling them that the problem is a ship hull and not the weapons system? My theory is someone has some really good blackmail pics of ccp staff of them doing stuff on a pub crawl. The demand made: leave ishtar alone or it these pics go public. Its the only thing that makes sense. Vice you know nerfing a whole weapons system for ships not even made op by them. This make no sense....I am being guided to ishtars to run sentries. and its not subtle guiding either. Unless ccp can show evidence that my say rokh was an op beast of doom and destruction if it ran 2 sentries to warrant this nerf I will go with the blackmail option.
Dimitrios Bekas Brave Operations - Lollipop Division Brave Collective 7	Posted - 2015.05.25 03:02:11 - [394] - Quote afkalt wrote: I think you're hurting the hulls which are not bonused for them disproportionately hard compared to the bonused ones. No-one complains about a sentry geddon. The issues sit firmly in the bonused hulls, who will feel this less because of their already huge advantage over their peer group. I know you like to balance the weapons and not blame hulls but in this case, it clearly IS the hulls. ********* ********* ************* This*
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 703	Posted - 2015.05.25 03:30:32 - [395] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: Dentia Caecus wrote: These vessels do not need a nerf at the present time. Fozzie mentioned some of these vessels in his post, but where is the data to support his conclusions, empirical or otherwise. While possible, I would be surprised to learn that fleets of VNI's or Armageddons are out there destroying every fleet encountered. Is it possible? Yes. Likely? No. Are the above hulls useful for other reasons, including, but not limited to mainline pve, skirmish pvp and roles within large pvp with their respective drone bonus intact? Yes. The big offender here is the Ishtar. I happen to love the vessel but I both see and appreciate the bigger picture: Do not nerf an entire weapons system when the overwhelming problem is one *** hull.* Does the community always get it right? No, we don't. But in this instance a cacophony of voices are presenting well reasoned arguments why Fozzie and his team made a mistake. This situation is reminiscent of f the jump changes as applied to JF's. Former CCP Greyscale listened to the community, mea culpa-ed and acted accordingly. I hope Fozzie does the same. I sincerely doubt it, but I have hope. The VNI is way out of line compared to other navy cruisers, here's the number of kills for each navy cruiser in April 2015: Vexor Navy Issue: 15 770 Exequror Navy Issue: 1 734 Caracal Navy Issue: 689 Osprey Navy Issue: 695 Scythe Fleet Issue: 3 695 Stabber Fleet Issue: 3 242 Navy Omen: 9 992 Augoror Navy Issue: 5 356 So the Navy Vexor is getting nearly 23 times more kills than a Navy Caracal A 46k EHP, 550 / 584 DPS at 53+76 km / 62+16.8 km Tech 1 cruiser, yo. You can break 600 DPS with 3 DDAs. It's 850 DPS with Ogre II that can track frigates unbonused. Drone Cruisers Online // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2015.05.25 04:46:48 - [396] - Quote I don't think the Ishtar should lose Sentries.. they just shouldn't be bonused. And ideal, I'd like to see it lose the range bonus, you want range, use yours highs for Links and lows for CPU like everyone else, THEN you're making a trade.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1288	Posted - 2015.05.25 07:48:50 - [397] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: A 47k EHP, 550 / 584 DPS at 53+76 km / 62+16.8 km on a Tech 1 cruiser, yo. You can break 600 sentry DPS with 3 DDAs. It's 850 DPS with Ogre II that can track frigates unbonused. VNI isn't anywhere near as horrible as the other hulls, missing a lot of the key facets: T2 resists, drone control range, MWD sig reduction, smaller bay (bombing them is actually viable as they can only carry 1 full flight of sentries) and it even has trouble targeting that far out. The take away here is that they are very much simpler to counter than domis or ishtars, various options exist and are neither niche nor limited in their application. VNIs are kittens next to the other hulls, believe me. I've fought more ishtar balls than I care to remember and there's always some newbros in VNIs...and they are ALWAYS shot first because they pop like eggs and it wipes DPS off field quickly.
Gul Barat xX Obsidian Order Xx 0	Posted - 2015.05.25 07:56:05 - [398] - Quote Not everyone is PvPing with an Ishtar. I hate this nerf, it ruins my PvE income
Anthar Thebess 1041	Posted - 2015.05.25 07:58:56 - [399] - Quote afkalt wrote: I think you're hurting the hulls which are not bonused for them disproportionately hard compared to the bonused ones. No-one complains about a sentry geddon. The issues sit firmly in the bonused hulls, who will feel this less because of their already huge advantage over their peer group. I know you like to balance the weapons and not blame hulls but in this case, it clearly IS the hulls. Confirm this. Change the hulls finally - sentry drones are broken but only when it comes to : - Isthar - Dominix - Carrier Parially broken sentry ships that new Drone Ewar will make even more balanced: - vexor navy - Rattlesnake Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1165	Posted - 2015.05.25 10:39:41 - [400] - Quote Zan Shiro wrote: Vacant Stare wrote: Why is CCP so fixated on nerfing modules when they have 20 pages of comments telling them that the problem is a ship hull and not the weapons system? My theory is someone has some really good blackmail pics of ccp staff of them doing stuff on a pub crawl. The demand made: leave ishtar alone or it these pics go public. Its the only thing that makes sense. Vice you know nerfing a whole weapons system for ships not even made op by them. This make no sense....I am being guided to ishtars to run sentries. and its not subtle guiding either. Unless ccp can show evidence that my say rokh was an op beast of doom and destruction if it ran 2 sentries to warrant this nerf I will go with the blackmail option. I'm not interested in blackmailing CCP, I'd just like to go on the next such pub-crawl...

Basil Pupkin Why So Platypus 197	Posted - 2015.05.25 11:56:19 - [401] - Quote Just give us PvE sentries, 25x cost, 2x durability, decent PvE capability compared to other PvE fits (after the last nerf attempting to PvE with bouncers is already inferior). There is also a HUGE difference in PvE capabilities between different factions heavy drones which can also be addressed. Then I will honestly give no fucks about what you do to PvP versions. And answering the obvious question I'm going to get, if somebody decides to throw 5 drones each costing roughly a T3 destroyer hull into PvP, he deserves the performance boost. Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy. If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Derren Zelway Crazy Bird Inc. Templis CALSF 5	Posted - 2015.05.25 12:09:07 - [402] - Quote Excellent changes! This will not fix drone combat entirely but it is definitely another step in the right direction. Thank you Fozzie!
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1832	Posted - 2015.05.25 12:58:10 - [403] - Quote Fourteen Maken wrote: The VNI is way out of line compared to other navy cruisers, here's the number of kills for each navy cruiser in April 2015: Vexor Navy Issue: 15 770 Exequror Navy Issue: 1 734 Caracal Navy Issue: 689 Osprey Navy Issue: 695 Scythe Fleet Issue: 3 695 Stabber Fleet Issue: 3 242 Navy Omen: 9 992 Augoror Navy Issue: 5 356 So the Navy Vexor is getting nearly 23 times more kills than a Navy Caracal CCP Falcon wrote: In terms of classification based on fleet numbers, it would be something like this: CONCORD Assembly - Largest by far, in terms of numbers. Amarr Navy - Massive and sprawling, but aging quite heavily. Federation Navy - Sizeable, and very much up to date. Republic Fleet - Sizeable, maybe 70% or so the size of the Federation Navy, but less maintained. Caldari Navy - Smallest significantly, but incredibly advanced and cutting edge. There's no public data on the Jove Navy's fleet numbers, so they're not on this list. In terms of classification based on technology, fleet age and fleet performance per vessel, it would look something like this: [*} Jove Navy - We know their tech is hugely advanced, so they get top spot. CONCORD Assembly - they have the ability to keep everyone in check. Caldari Navy - The Caldari Navy's fleet is the youngest and most sophisticated. Average fleet age is less than 20 years. Federation Navy - Very advanced, relying heavily on automation. Reliable and very powerful. Amarr Navy - Aging, with a significant number of its fleet needing updates and refitting. Republic Fleet - Not in as bad shape as the worst of the Amarr Navy, but in need of a breath of fresh life in places. It's probably because we don't want to risk our relatively "young" ships...
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1291	Posted - 2015.05.25 13:32:56 - [404] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Fourteen Maken wrote: The VNI is way out of line compared to other navy cruisers, here's the number of kills for each navy cruiser in April 2015: Vexor Navy Issue: 15 770 Exequror Navy Issue: 1 734 Caracal Navy Issue: 689 Osprey Navy Issue: 695 Scythe Fleet Issue: 3 695 Stabber Fleet Issue: 3 242 Navy Omen: 9 992 Augoror Navy Issue: 5 356 So the Navy Vexor is getting nearly 23 times more kills than a Navy Caracal CCP Falcon wrote: In terms of classification based on fleet numbers, it would be something like this: CONCORD Assembly - Largest by far, in terms of numbers. Amarr Navy - Massive and sprawling, but aging quite heavily. Federation Navy - Sizeable, and very much up to date. Republic Fleet - Sizeable, maybe 70% or so the size of the Federation Navy, but less maintained. Caldari Navy - Smallest significantly, but incredibly advanced and cutting edge. There's no public data on the Jove Navy's fleet numbers, so they're not on this list. In terms of classification based on technology, fleet age and fleet performance per vessel, it would look something like this: [*} Jove Navy - We know their tech is hugely advanced, so they get top spot. CONCORD Assembly - they have the ability to keep everyone in check. Caldari Navy - The Caldari Navy's fleet is the youngest and most sophisticated. Average fleet age is less than 20 years. Federation Navy - Very advanced, relying heavily on automation. Reliable and very powerful. Amarr Navy - Aging, with a significant number of its fleet needing updates and refitting. Republic Fleet - Not in as bad shape as the worst of the Amarr Navy, but in need of a breath of fresh life in places. It's probably because we don't want to risk our relatively "young" ships... Procurers probably get more kills than navy caracals.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 704	Posted - 2015.05.25 15:04:26 - [405] - Quote afkalt wrote: Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: A 47k EHP, 550 / 584 DPS at 53+76 km / 62+16.8 km on a Tech 1 cruiser, yo. You can break 600 sentry DPS with 3 DDAs. It's 850 DPS with Ogre II that can track frigates unbonused. VNI isn't anywhere near as horrible as the other hulls, missing a lot of the key facets: T2 resists, drone control range, MWD sig reduction, smaller bay (bombing them is actually viable as they can only carry 1 full flight of sentries) and it even has trouble targeting that far out. Cool story. Only that it was being compared to other Faction Tech 1 hulls - they are out of proportion and frankly OP. When Drone Damage Amplifiers were introduced, the 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints & damage bonus on all the droneboats at that time wasn't changed to reflect the new reality - a very, very grave oversight with the consequences being plain to see. Drones were already a formidable weapons system before DDAs due to the 10% per level hull bonus and built-in base attributes. The 850 DPS Ogres may be balanced on a Battleship hull, but on a cruiser with 125 MB drone bandwidth it is retardo levels. CCP? // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1292	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:28:36 - [406] - Quote Is it? I can get 940 out of an ENI and it's not like the VNI can carry alternate drones.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:36:57 - [407] - Quote It's 928 DPS with Neutron Blasters and 4x Magstabs plus 5 Hobgoblins II - with the usual disadvantages that the blaster ships have to endure. The VNI is 934 DPS with Ogres if you use two Neutron Blasters. Gallente having two of these boats is not a very balanced situation - one of them is being able to project 600 DPS to HAC & Battleship ranges. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1292	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:46:11 - [408] - Quote It's 940 with heat. I used a workable fit
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 16:50:23 - [409] - Quote With heat it's 1053 DPS, Quote: [Exequror Navy Issue] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II 10MN Microwarpdrive II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Hobgoblin II x5 Fifty CPU short, but is rectifiable. Almost matches the VNI in EHP - 40k. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1832	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:00:13 - [410] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: With heat it's 1053 DPS, Quote: [Exequror Navy Issue] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II 10MN Microwarpdrive II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Medium Core Defense Field Extender II Hobgoblin II x5 Fifty CPU short, but is rectifiable. Almost matches the VNI in EHP - 40k. 50 on a hull that start out with 425 is not that easy... Genolution + 6% implant is not enough...

Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:04:49 - [411] - Quote The RF LSEs are going to be 40 CPU, so that's -12 CPU already, faction Magstabs reduce it by 10 each, CN Invul by another 17 tf. I do agree - not easy, just like I said with regards to blasterboats, not to mention tackle, which in the case of VNI/Ishtars can only consist of a few dictors. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1292	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:06:34 - [412] - Quote I prefer this, better application [Exequror Navy Issue, Blasters] Damage Control II 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator II Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Warrior II x5 50 CPU is a bunch short though. Anyway, it's not that much of an outlier, heavys aren't all that fabulous off paper.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:11:46 - [413] - Quote Indeed, to make it fit w/out implants or faction of any kind, one can swap out for Ions in my fit, you can remove the RCU and Ancil rigs, get a Co-Proc II in, change CDFE IIs to tech Tech 1 and fit a Burst Aerator II rig = 1050 DPS heated and 38k EHP. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1832	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:16:14 - [414] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: The RF LSEs are going to be 40 CPU, so that's -12 CPU already, faction Magstabs reduce it by 10 each, CN Invul by another 17 tf. I do agree - not easy, just like I said with regards to blasterboats, not to mention tackle, which in the case of VNI/Ishtars can consist only of a few dictors. At that point, you jump in an Ishtar insetad of putting faction mods on a faction cruiser unless you absolutely need to be in a T1 hull...
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:17:43 - [415] - Quote Exactly. If not work -> Goto Ishtar If battleship explode -> Goto Ishtar If HAC can't do 450 DPS at 100 km -> Goto Ishtar Though the comparison was between Faction Tech 1 cruisers and their relative utility - a Nomen can reach 100km, but with 260 DPS, so the VNI competes with BATTLESHIPS. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1292	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:31:49 - [416] - Quote Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote: Exactly. If not work -> Goto Ishtar If battleship explode -> Goto Ishtar If HAC can't do 450 DPS at 100 km -> Goto Ishtar Though the comparison was between Faction Tech 1 cruisers and their relative utility - a Nomen can reach 100km, but with 260 DPS, so the VNI competes with BATTLESHIPS. VNI cant even lock that far. You're too focused on the big eft numbers tbh, the reality is different.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 17:37:41 - [417] - Quote It's sufficient for medium engagements and with 1 Singlar Amplifier II you can get 87 km lock range, which would be the sweet spot for your 620 DPS Bouncers, though the dronebay is limited for sentry spam. The 125 MB bandwidth on a cruiser hull is broken any way you look at it, and Sabriz posted the single best idea in the whole thread, Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Also remember the nuclear option on sentries if needed - making heavies 20mb/s bandwidth, sentries 30mb/s, and then making the Ishtar and VNI both 100mb/s while battleship droneboats get 120 or 150mb/s as appropriate to the hull. If this patch PLUS a recalibration of the Ishtar hull don't solve the problem, bring out that nuclear option. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1292	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:12:18 - [418] - Quote That's a terrible idea. All the battleships balanced at 100mb (Mach, bhaal, phoon spring to mind) get another heavy, the drone ships can spit out an extra gecko. It also ignores the command ships. How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage.
Iroquoiss Pliskin Hedion University Amarr Empire 709	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:19:40 - [419] - Quote afkalt wrote: That's a terrible idea. All the battleships balanced at 100mb (Mach, bhaal, phoon spring to mind) get another heavy, the drone ships can spit out an extra gecko. Changing drone bandwidth would require the review of all the hulls, yes. This is why I mentioned the second solution, which is cruisers at 50 MB, Ishtar & VNI at 75, Battlecruisers at 75-100, which they actually are at right now. You can make a Vexor do more DPS than an Arbi with the same bandwidth for both by differentiating them via the hull damage bonus. Quote: How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage. It doesn't fix anything, the engagements will just become medium range with DLAs neglected, or with just one fitted on Ishtars. Even without an Optimal range bonus to sentries, the Ishtard would outclass all HACs in range and damage. So the issue is more fundamental than most like to present. // Turret-Equivalent of the Rapid ML Concept // Cruisers Online - [Damage done in PvP by Shiptype]
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 745	Posted - 2015.05.25 18:22:16 - [420] - Quote afkalt wrote: That's a terrible idea. All the battleships balanced at 100mb (Mach, bhaal, phoon spring to mind) get another heavy, the drone ships can spit out an extra gecko. It also ignores the command ships. How you really fix it is slamming DLA from a high to a low. Voilla, pick range OR damage. Or to a mid. then you have to pick range or application or tackle or shield tank or range control. Either one is a boom headshot sorta fix that deals a body blow to the huge DPS at insane ranges with insane dps relative to the tradeoffs made. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp



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