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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24945
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:19:31 -
[571] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Aaron wrote:Noob: You killed my exhumer, it took ages for me to grind for that.
Ganker: Who gives a ****, go and play WOW, or hello kitty online.
Noob: Ok I will, Bye.
It normally goes as follows: Noob: Incoherent rant casting aspersions on your parenthood, involving forced sexual relations with your mother, your kids and your pets, followed by threats of violence, arson, and other things that are completely out of proportion to the loss of some pixels. Ganker: Go back to WoW and play with the other children you worthless scrub, Eve is for adults. Good point, now multiply your post by about 4000, that's 4000 people not in the game anymore. Good riddance TBH.
People who make real life threats over the loss of some pixels seem to have issues separating reality from fantasy; there's a medical term for that behavior, one that is often misused by those who do have this issue, to describe those of us that don't.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Salvos Rhoska
1297
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:20:16 -
[572] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:You then did compete, but lost in the competition, but you still own the item. All you really have lost is your expectation of a profit.
You lost the competition, and the profit, to another player, due to their actions against yours and in interaction with yours, towards that end.
That is PvP.
It is other players you are competing against, not the AI.
Its inherently, integrally and utterly PvP.
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Whitehound
2882
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:22:34 -
[573] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:No. Another player can simply not make you lose items in trading. Sure they can. Then, please, make me lose something. I do have market orders up. Show me how you are going to make me lose my stuff.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Salvos Rhoska
1297
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:25:29 -
[574] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:No. Another player can simply not make you lose items in trading. Sure they can. Then, please, make me lose something. I do have market orders up. Show me how you are going to make me lose my stuff.
"Loosing stuff" is not a condition of PvP.
Just about every FPS is PvP, but involves no "loss of stuff" whatsoever.
LoL is PvP, but again, does not involve any "loss of stuff" whatsoever.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12279
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:25:39 -
[575] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Aaron wrote:Ok Here is my 2 cents worth.
Too many Eve players are bullies and you pick on weaker pilots till they get frustrated with the game and leave. I wish more of you would consider that your own actions contribute to people leaving. CCP Rise wrote:We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. What I speak of is natural human emotion. No one really wants to be in an environment where they feel pushed around and bullied. And it is not just new players that don't like the way things are. If there has been 1000s of forum posts relating to people being alienated from the game because its so brutal then it's wise to accept this will have an effect on numbers. I've been playing for 12 years and I've read the forums consistently, I know the way most of you deal with whine threads it is negative and non constructive, because of this people leave.
If you feel that way, why play for 12 years? And if someone can feel "bullied' playing a video game that is about CONQUEST and POWER et all, they made a poor personal choice, now didn't they?
It's all about mindset, I've been ejected from null sec 6 times by my count, 3 of those times by Goons (for the record, didn't want that Tribute or Vale of the Silent anyways). That pushing wasn't bullying, any more than someone charging me rent because i landed on Park Place in monopoly is.
This is a game. It isn't about being 'nice' or 'sympathetic' to people (though this is a personal choice you can make, nothing wrong with doing that). If a person doesn't like Brutal situations, they shouldn't play brutal games. |
Whitehound
2882
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:26:48 -
[576] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP. Then what is?
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Salvos Rhoska
1299
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:29:00 -
[577] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP. Then what is? Player interacting against other players interests, competetively.
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Whitehound
2882
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:30:26 -
[578] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Whitehound wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP. Then what is? Player interacting against other players interests, competetively. No, because that is just as much the definition of competitive PvE.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25836
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:30:51 -
[579] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Then, please, make me lose something. I do have market orders up. Then you are already competing with other players, and you've most likely lost something in the last 5 minutes.
That you are competing against other players over something, as opposed to having AI entities as your opposition: that's why it is called PvP GÇö player vs. player.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12280
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:32:50 -
[580] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP. Then what is?
I was confounded by what you posted to, you're saying that market pvp wasn't pvp because you couldn't lose a ship or pod because of it.
That makes no sense. Pvp in EVe online is (at it's core) one human being sitting in front of some kind of computer playing against some other person on another computer. Loss has zero to do with it, you could have a PvPr who never losses a ship.
Hell, most non-EVE pvp games result in no loss except the loss of pride.
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Salvos Rhoska
1299
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:33:26 -
[581] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Whitehound wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP. Then what is? Player interacting against other players interests, competetively. No, because that is just as much the definition of competitive PvE.
No.
For example: We are both running the 100m race.
There is absolutely zero PvE effect in this scenario.
We are engaged in PvP, even if there is no overt interaction between us.
Our interests are in conflict. I want to win. You want to win. In competition, one of us wins, in a player vs player setting.
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Whitehound
2882
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:37:24 -
[582] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:Then, please, make me lose something. I do have market orders up. Then you are already competing with other players, and you've most likely lost something in the last 5 minutes. You mean the ISKs that I got in exchange? That is not a loss to me, by no means.
Fact is you do not even know what I am selling and where I am selling it. So you cannot do anything to cause me a loss. But let's keep talking about it, shall we? Maybe we will have a glitch and it makes all my stuff disappear or not give me any ISKs for it.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers EVEolution.
326
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:39:10 -
[583] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP. Then what is?
time to break it down barney style for the hound.
P is for player
v is for versus
P is for player
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Salvos Rhoska
1302
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:39:33 -
[584] - Quote
"Player(s) versus player(s), or PvP, is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants. This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponents and/or players, which is correspondingly referred to as player versus environment (PvE). "
"PvP can be broadly used to describe any game, or aspect of a game, where players compete against each other"
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25838
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:40:49 -
[585] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:You mean the ISKs that I got in exchange? No, I mean the wealth you lost.
GǪthe market is PvP, irrespective of how desperately you want to redefine it as some nonsensical self-contradictory term you've just invented because you want to be wrong, as you always are when words and meanings come up.
Quote:you do not even know what I am selling and where I am selling it. irrelevant. You are still losing to other players who are competing against you. You know, PvP. Just because you are collateral damage does not mean it wasn't the competition and opposition of other players that created your losses.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24945
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:41:07 -
[586] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Whitehound wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:"Losing stuff" is not a condition of PvP. Then what is? Player interacting against other players interests, competetively. No, because that is just as much the definition of competitive PvE. No that's called PvP. If my interests are in opposition to yours and we are playing the same game, it's essentially me, a player, vs you, another player; hence P(layer)v(s)P(layer).
Making up terms to make yourself look clever does the exact opposite.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Whitehound
2882
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:46:22 -
[587] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:No.
For example: We are both running the 100m race.
There is absolutely zero PvE effect in this scenario. Yes, there is. The track you are running on, the finishing line you are crossing, the clock and the rules defining the victor are all part of the environment.
If want to see it as fighting the other racer then be my guest, but you are not actually engaging in a physical fight even if you could, but rather the rules prevent you from doing so as it would disqualify you. The fight against the other runner is only in your head. He might however not even notice you, because he could be entirely focused on the track, his heartbeat and breathing just to achieve his best performance.
Only if you were allowed to knock the other runner down, push him off the track or otherwise directly engage/assault him would it constitute a direct fight - a PvP - between you two.
Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Salvos Rhoska
1302
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:47:32 -
[588] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not.
If the 100m is not PvP, then what is it?
I think it might be a language issue for you, but you are unduly hung up on associating PvP with violence or loss, neither of which is a criteria or a requirement.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
131
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:47:45 -
[589] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:"Player(s) versus player(s), or PvP, is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants. This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponents and/or players, which is correspondingly referred to as player versus environment (PvE). "
"PvP can be broadly used to describe any game, or aspect of a game, where players compete against each other" In computer role-playing games, PvP is sometimes called player killing or PKing.
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player
FYP
You missed a bit of the quote, the bit I added bolded and underlined. |
Bellatrix Invicta
New Order Logistics CODE.
419
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:49:20 -
[590] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:No.
For example: We are both running the 100m race.
There is absolutely zero PvE effect in this scenario. Yes, there is. The track you are running on, the finishing line you are crossing, the clock and the rules defining the victor are all part of the environment. If want to see it as fighting the other racer then be my guest, but you are not actually engaging in a physical fight even if you could, but rather the rules prevent you from doing so as it would disqualify you. The fight against the other runner is only in your head. He might however not even notice you, because he could be entirely focused on the track, his heartbeat and breathing just to achieve his best performance. Only if you were allowed to knock the other runner down, push him off the track or otherwise directly engage/assault him would it constitute a direct fight - a PvP - between you two. Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not.
Even running alone against the clock is PvP; you're competing against yourself.
Remove those rose-colored glasses you're wearing, friend. Everything in Eve is PvP.
If you think you've won, think again.
The CODE always wins.
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Salvos Rhoska
1302
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:50:44 -
[591] - Quote
Avvy wrote:FYP
You missed a bit of the quote, the bit I added bolded and underlined. It says "sometimes".
There are many PvP situations that do not involve player killing (PKi), but which are nonetheless still PvP.
That's why it says "sometimes". As in PvP is called PK, when it involves PK.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11543
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:51:03 -
[592] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:No.
For example: We are both running the 100m race.
There is absolutely zero PvE effect in this scenario. Yes, there is. The track you are running on, the finishing line you are crossing, the clock and the rules defining the victor are all part of the environment. If want to see it as fighting the other racer then be my guest, but you are not actually engaging in a physical fight even if you could, but rather the rules prevent you from doing so as it would disqualify you. The fight against the other runner is only in your head. He might however not even notice you, because he could be entirely focused on the track, his heartbeat and breathing just to achieve his best performance. Only if you were allowed to knock the other runner down, push him off the track or otherwise directly engage/assault him would it constitute a direct fight - a PvP - between you two. Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not. What about poker eh, I think that would be far more apt a parallel, where would you come Down on that?
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24945
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:51:10 -
[593] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:No.
For example: We are both running the 100m race.
There is absolutely zero PvE effect in this scenario. Yes, there is. The track you are running on, the finishing line you are crossing, the clock and the rules defining the victor are all part of the environment. If want to see it as fighting the other racer then be my guest, but you are not actually engaging in a physical fight even if you could, but rather the rules prevent you from doing so as it would disqualify you. The fight against the other runner is only in your head. He might however not even notice you, because he could be entirely focused on the track, his heartbeat and breathing just to achieve his best performance. Only if you were allowed to knock the other runner down, push him off the track or otherwise directly engage/assault him would it constitute a direct fight - a PvP - between you two. Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not. Both are competition and in gaming terms would be considered as PvP.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25839
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:51:59 -
[594] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Yes, there is. The track you are running on, the finishing line you are crossing, the clock and the rules defining the victor are all part of the environment. GǪbut they're not the competition.
Quote:Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not. They are both PvP, and for the exact same reason.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
131
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:52:16 -
[595] - Quote
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:Whitehound wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:No.
For example: We are both running the 100m race.
There is absolutely zero PvE effect in this scenario. Yes, there is. The track you are running on, the finishing line you are crossing, the clock and the rules defining the victor are all part of the environment. If want to see it as fighting the other racer then be my guest, but you are not actually engaging in a physical fight even if you could, but rather the rules prevent you from doing so as it would disqualify you. The fight against the other runner is only in your head. He might however not even notice you, because he could be entirely focused on the track, his heartbeat and breathing just to achieve his best performance. Only if you were allowed to knock the other runner down, push him off the track or otherwise directly engage/assault him would it constitute a direct fight - a PvP - between you two. Boxing is PvP. Running a track is not. Even running alone against the clock is PvP; you're competing against yourself. Remove those rose-colored glasses you're wearing, friend. Everything in Eve is PvP.
So even PvE is PvP, that makes it simpler. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
253
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:52:30 -
[596] - Quote
@ Jenn
You misunderstood me Jenn, please go back and read my posts.
Aaron wrote:Ok Here is my 2 cents worth.
Too many Eve players are bullies and you pick on weaker pilots till they get frustrated with the game and leave. I wish more of you would consider that your own actions contribute to people leaving.
This is a dark and brutal experience where there is no sympathy for anything, not everyone can handle this vibe so be mindful of this when you want to blame CCP for numbers dropping.
I am not complaining about dark and brutal, I like it and enjoy avoiding it or finding tactics to counter it. I've prepared a small role play to push my point further;
Noob: You killed my exhumer, it took ages for me to grind for that.
Ganker: Who gives a ****, go and play WOW, or hello kitty online.
Noob: Ok I will, Bye.
This is the norm in Eve, accept that your actions have consequence and accept that it is partly you who shapes the game and affects numbers.
I have no problem with brutal and dark and Eve being rife with bullies, as I said in previous posts I enjoy avoiding it and finding tactics to survive.
My point is that the same people who are here crying about numbers dropping are the same ones who bully noobs, pve'ers etc. What I am saying is that bullying and trolling whine forums has a consequence, It has made people leave. I'm only saying for the bullies and trolls to accept this and not come on here crying because numbers are dropping.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
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Giaus Felix
Hedion University Amarr Empire
54
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:55:48 -
[597] - Quote
Avvy wrote:So even PvE is PvP, that makes it simpler. In the specific case of Eve, this would be true.
A very large percentage, if not all of the PvE content in Eve is designed to put you in conflict with other players, whether it be for resources, market share, power, influence, e-peen size etc.
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Salvos Rhoska
1302
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:56:53 -
[598] - Quote
Nobody is whining about new players leaving the game due to being faced with the harsh environment of EVE.
This has always been the case, and will always be the case.
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Whitehound
2882
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:57:10 -
[599] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Whitehound wrote:You mean the ISKs that I got in exchange? No, I mean the wealth you lost. The ISKs make me wealthy. It is exactly what I wanted and what I got.
You did not succeed in making me lose anything. So where do we stand now?
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25842
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Posted - 2015.08.31 15:59:10 -
[600] - Quote
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:Remove those rose-colored glasses you're wearing, friend. Everything in Eve is PvP. It's not rose-coloured glasses. He just doesn't understand words, and substitutes his home-made definitions for the pre-existing ones he does not want to know or hear about.
Avvy wrote:So even PvE is PvP, that makes it simpler. In EVE, yes, since it's all subject to player competition GÇö often very explicitly and purposefully so. There are roughly two AI interactions you can do in this game where other players can't affect you in some way: clicking the GÇ£request missionGÇ¥ button and clicking the GÇ£complete missionGÇ¥ button. Note that it's only the button-clicking that is exempt from the rule, not all the gameplay that goes on before, between, or after.
Whitehound wrote:The ISKs make me wealthy. It is exactly what I wanted and what I got. GǪand yet you lost wealth in the process of competing with other players GÇö you know, PvP GÇö pretty much unavoidably and inherently, all due to how the market operates. What you wanted does not change what actually happened.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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