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![Esnaelc Sin'led Esnaelc Sin'led](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93473560/portrait?size=64)
Esnaelc Sin'led
AdAstra. Beach Club
15
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Posted - 2015.09.04 11:34:18 -
[1171] - Quote
Jita Jitara wrote:I think the following might increase interest:
1) add more regions - more space needed, at least another 5000+ systems for the taking 2) limit corps to 75-100 members and alliances to 50 corporations, coalitions would be created, coalitions will dissolve, backstabs will occur. Everyone will have a fighting chance. 3) kill titans or make them stationary so that they serve a purpose of being a system defense structure rather then to move them about and use them in fleets. 4) eliminate jump bridges 5) 0.8-1.0 systems: no pirates/gankers allowed at all, 0.5-07 business as usual. 6) moon minerals should deplete on moons and respawn on different moons, which would encourage conquest. Each moon gives a random amount according moon size. Small moon = small amounts vs big moon = big amounts. 7) 30 day timecodes at 750m a pop would be nice to have :) equivalent to currency. 8) mining boats need a stronger tank so that they can withstand the pirate ganks in 0.5-0.7 systems. 9) old school sov wars where you popped towers was a nice thing, dunno if it can be brought back into life. but thats just me. Node wars did spread out the fights to several different systems, so I did not see any massive lags yet. 10) increase number of wormholes and add more WH bonus types 11) Drones should drop loot, same as other npc factions 12) risk vs reward, more challenging anomalies and signatures
also I heard about EVE from a mate who heard from a mate who heard from a priest etc... So maybe more marketing would not hurt the CCP wallets. ****'s sale, World of Tanks has a better ad on TV then WoW. And if WoT can fight for their fanbase, dont see why CCP cant do it themselves as well. Agree with points 6 / 10 / 12.
Point 6 is key for the game to be alive. It goes for moons, but also for asteroid belts and combat sites. It would turn the game a lot more dynamic and turn down "unbreakable" entities sitting on their gold mountains with no threat felt at all whatsoever. |
![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6750
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 11:34:48 -
[1172] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪbut not in the form of a pocket dimension, which is what instance means in every MMO except EVE.
The term is used in EVE because that's just what programmers call it when you create an instance of something in the game world. As a MMO design element, however, it has a different meaning that does not apply to EVE. Wrong. Instanced content in MMOs is merely a way for duplicating content and separating out players playing the same content so that server hardware can individually work with each. Whether or not players can freely move between them is irrelevant. That's all EVE does, is it allows you to fly between instances of content.
Tippia wrote:No, those are not instances in any sense of the word GÇö they're just map divisions. Of course they are. They don't even exist until players arrive on them.
Tippia wrote:Wrong. An instance in an MMO context is very specifically more than that: it is not just a copy, but a private copy to which outsiders have no access. That was why they were invented GÇö to ensure that the creator had sole access to the content within and didn't have to compete with others. These days, you even see it nested in on itself as people expect to be able to run instances in groups, so that even within that shared space, loot is instanced on a per-player basis. No it's not, there's no limitation that requires it to be private. Even in the Wikipedia article you linked, look at guild wars. Instanced towns with free movement between them. You're just trying to arbitrarily add restrictions on what is classed as instanced content to desperately try to claim that EVE is different. Worse still, it doesn't even change the fact that instances or not, WoW players in instanced content still impact players outside of the instance.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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![Tippia Tippia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1938874952/portrait?size=64)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25903
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Posted - 2015.09.04 11:36:57 -
[1173] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Of course it does. No. EVE does not use instancing in the sense that it used in the MMO space. Period.
Instancing is a method of separating players to remove competition. It has been from the very start. EVE does not have this because it wants there to be competition between players an a shared space. If other people can visit your instance, it is no longer a proper instance GÇö it is just a copy in an open world.
Quote:All content in EVE will have an impact on other players, thus it is PvP. GǪand this does not hold true for most other games, especially not WoW.
Quote:See what I mean about that arrogance? No. Facts are not arrogance. Just saying GÇ£nu-uhGÇ¥ while being utterly incapable of actually demonstrating the slightest bit of evidence to even suggest that what was said was wrong does not change those facts.
Quote:Of course there is, and clearly one can be labelled as PvE (as it is by CCP themselves) and the other is labelled as PvP. GǪexcept that such a categorisation completely misses the mark and understanding that this is the case is actually pretty crucial to understanding what makes EVE different. Just because it is convenient to incorrectly label the two does not mean it's helpful to do so or that it conveys the really meaningful difference.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6750
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 11:38:58 -
[1174] - Quote
Avvy wrote:*I wouldn't say buying the lowest item is PvP I wouldn't even call it PvE, but the EVE market in general is better than most. Plus I don't think I've seen any NPCs that I can sell to in EVE which means the economy is player run. There's a lot more competition in EVE's market than others I've seen. Player markets are PvP, no matter what item you buy.
And EVE has skill books, blueprints, etc, all sold by NPC as well as a wide variety of trade good both bought and sold by NPCs. Look at skillbooks for example, any order with a time remaining of more than 90 days (usually 300 or so) is an NPC order.
Avvy wrote:WoW instances will only allow the person or group (if grouped together) to enter, nobody else can access it. That's what people are talking about when they're talking about instanced content. Irrelevant. Whether or not instance content allows freedom of movement doesn't change that it's duplicate content generated on demand for a player. And like I said above, it doesn't mean that the results of that instance don't have an impact of other players.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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![Tippia Tippia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1938874952/portrait?size=64)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25903
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 11:41:14 -
[1175] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Wrong. Instanced content in MMOs is merely a way for GǪone party to have private copy where they don't have to compete with others who are doing the same content. This is how the term has been used in MMOs since roughly forever. Your wish that EVE worked like every other game doesn't change the fact that it does not.
Quote:Of course they are. They don't even exist until players arrive on them. GǪwhich doesn't make them instances. They're not copies of anything, and they most certainly aren't private. Thus they fail to be any kind of instance other than in a deeply technical sense of how you initiate the object in code. But that is not how the term is used.
Grids are map divisions, not instances.
Quote:No it's not, there's no limitation that requires it to be private. Wrong. That is the very essence of how the term is used in the MMO space. Google GÇ£mmo instanceGÇ¥ and see for yourself. It has a meaning; it is not the one you so desperately want it to be.
EVE does not have instancing in the sense that is commonly used in the MMO space.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6750
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 11:45:14 -
[1176] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. EVE does not use instancing in the sense that it used in the MMO space. Period.
Instancing is a method of separating players to remove competition. It has been from the very start. EVE does not have this because it wants there to be competition between players an a shared space. If other people can visit your instance, it is no longer a proper instance GÇö it is just a copy in an open world. Completely wrong. You're just misunderstand what instancing is and applying restrictions to the definition to fit your narrative.
Tippia wrote:GǪand this does not hold true for most other games, especially not WoW. Of course it does! If I grind a whole load of gold in WoW to buy things on the market, it's no different from grinding a whole bunch of isk in EVE to spend on the market, in both instances the amount of money in the economy grows causing inflation
Tippia wrote:No. Facts are not arrogance. Just saying GÇ£nu-uhGÇ¥ while being utterly incapable of actually demonstrating the slightest bit of evidence to even suggest that what was said was wrong does not change those facts. Except you're not providing facts, you've just stating over and over that EVE is different because you say so, because your twisted definitions claim it to be.
Tippia wrote:GǪexcept that such a categorisation completely misses the mark and understanding that this is the case is actually pretty crucial to understanding what makes EVE different. Just because it is convenient to incorrectly label the two does not mean it's helpful to do so or that it conveys the really meaningful difference. Except it doesn't miss the mark. EVE is a sandbox game with both PvE and PvP content. That you want to stretch the definition of PvP so you can claim mining a rock is PvP is your own problem.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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![Avvy Avvy](https://images.evetech.net/characters/95722189/portrait?size=64)
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
164
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 11:48:43 -
[1177] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Avvy wrote:*I wouldn't say buying the lowest item is PvP I wouldn't even call it PvE, but the EVE market in general is better than most. Plus I don't think I've seen any NPCs that I can sell to in EVE which means the economy is player run. There's a lot more competition in EVE's market than others I've seen. Player markets are PvP, no matter what item you buy. And EVE has skill books, blueprints, etc, all sold by NPC as well as a wide variety of trade good both bought and sold by NPCs. Look at skillbooks for example, any order with a time remaining of more than 90 days (usually 300 or so) is an NPC order.
Player markets are PvP that doesn't mean every activity is.
So where do I go to find the NPC where I can sell some T2 ship fittings?
I know there are some NPCs that sell a few specific goods, but they are specific goods for a specific purpose.
Lucas Kell wrote:Avvy wrote:WoW instances will only allow the person or group (if grouped together) to enter, nobody else can access it. That's what people are talking about when they're talking about instanced content. Irrelevant. Whether or not instance content allows freedom of movement doesn't change that it's duplicate content generated on demand for a player. And like I said above, it doesn't mean that the results of that instance don't have an impact of other players.
It's not irrelevant at all, you're just trying to be pedantic. |
![Anize Oramara Anize Oramara](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91322842/portrait?size=64)
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
359
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 11:50:48 -
[1178] - Quote
Any activity where I can force my will on you in one way or another is PvP. For example, warping into 'your' complex, mission or as you call it 'PvE instance' is an activity that is subject to PvP.
In WoW I can not get into your PvE instance (Dungeon for example)
Do you understand the difference? I don't think it can be dumbed down any more and I'm pretty sure even most of the 12y old WoW players can understand it by now, have some dignity. |
![Tippia Tippia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1938874952/portrait?size=64)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25903
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 11:52:49 -
[1179] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:You're just misunderstand what instancing is and applying restrictions to the definition to fit your narrative. Nope.
Look. Up. The. Term.
I know you are afraid to do so because you will find that you are wrong. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day, EVE is still not an instanced game. Period.
Quote:Of course it does! If I grind a whole load of gold in WoW to buy things on the market GǪand if you don't? See, there's the difference. You can choose not to affect other players in WoW. You can't in EVE.
Quote:Except you're not providing facts GǪaside from all the stuff I've mentioned that you haven't been able to respond to.
Quote:Except it doesn't miss the mark Of course it does. GÇ£PvEGÇ¥ in EVE is PvP. It's subject to competition, opposition, disruption, theft, and outright destruction to the point where the environment you're supposed to fight against becomes utterly irrelevant in comparison. Calling such content PvE when it has many time more PvP components means that this distinction provides a false image of what is actually going on.
If we want to convey a meaningful difference, those two terms are wholly insufficient since there is so much overlap. I'm not saying that we shouldn't categorise it; I'm saying that we should use more accurate and relevant categories GÇö i.e. ones that explain exactly what kind of PvP mining a rock is.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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![Lan Wang Lan Wang](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91801779/portrait?size=64)
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1445
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 11:53:39 -
[1180] - Quote
why are we even talking about wow, they have been losing customers for a while now
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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![Tippia Tippia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1938874952/portrait?size=64)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25903
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 11:54:09 -
[1181] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:why are we even talking about wow, they have been losing customers for a while now Because Lucas things WoW works just like EVE. Somehow. ![Ugh](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_ugh.png)
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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![xxxTRUSTxxx xxxTRUSTxxx](https://images.evetech.net/characters/286890395/portrait?size=64)
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers EVEolution.
330
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Posted - 2015.09.04 11:55:41 -
[1182] - Quote
why is this thread of steaming dog shite not locked? |
![Anize Oramara Anize Oramara](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91322842/portrait?size=64)
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
361
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 11:57:23 -
[1183] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:why is this thread of steaming dog shite not locked? It's something to do, keeps us busy and doesn't involve us bashing CCP so they're allowing it. |
![Avvy Avvy](https://images.evetech.net/characters/95722189/portrait?size=64)
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
166
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 11:58:04 -
[1184] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:why is this thread of steaming dog shite not locked?
I think it's left open to try to keep other treads clean.
Edit:
Might be what Anzie said as well |
![Black Pedro Black Pedro](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93800117/portrait?size=64)
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1548
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 12:00:45 -
[1185] - Quote
Avvy wrote:It's not irrelevant at all, you're just trying to be pedantic. It's what he does. Pendants gonna be pedantic.
It's clear to all reasonable observers that Eve is a PvP game. Even CCP spells that out multiple times in the New Pilot FAQ (pages 15, 22). The fact it has PvE in it, some of which is instanced in the loosest sense of the word, does not mean that it is not a PvP game.
No matter how much Lucas wants it to be one, nor how focused some players game play is on PvE, the fact remains EvE was designed to be, and is in fact a full-time PvP sandbox game. |
![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6751
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 12:02:30 -
[1186] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Player markets are PvP that doesn't mean every activity is.
So where do I go to find the NPC where I can sell some T2 ship fittings?
I know there are some NPCs that sell a few specific goods, but they are specific goods for a specific purpose. Honestly, I don't get what point you are trying to make here. Let be clear, I am claiming that EVE contains both PvE and PvP in the sandbox. Others are claiming that everything is PvE because there is an economic impact on other players even from you just mining ore. So therefore I claim that WoW is the same, and as such WoW is a PvP game too.
Avvy wrote:It's not irrelevant at all, you're just trying to be pedantic. No, I'm simply claiming that instanced content is instanced, while for some reason you guys are trying to claim it's not.
Put it this way though. Even if we were to universally accept claims that EVE has no instances and WoW does, the act of going into an instance in WoW and generating gold and items still has an impact of the rest of the server, and thus it's still a PvP game.
Anize Oramara wrote:Any activity where I can force my will on you in one way or another is PvP. For example, warping into 'your' complex, mission or as you call it 'PvE instance' is an activity that is subject to PvP.
In WoW I can not get into your PvE instance (Dungeon for example)
Do you understand the difference? I don't think it can be dumbed down any more and I'm pretty sure even most of the 12y old WoW players can understand it by now, have some dignity. Irrelevant. The claim being made is that EVE is a PvP game because any action, even PvE actions, have an impact on the rest of the players. The same occurs in WoW. Whether or not EVE mission instances are private or not doesn't change that.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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![Anize Oramara Anize Oramara](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91322842/portrait?size=64)
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
361
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 12:04:09 -
[1187] - Quote
Incidentally although I agree with most of what Tipia is saying I would probably state it differently as a matter of being pedantic :P
For example, yes accepting a mission and shooting red crossestriangles is *inherently* a PvE action however unlike many other MMOs it can at any time be subject to PvP action by other players. I don't think this change the action from a PvE action to a PvP action (not taking into account what you do with the isk/LP after completing the mission) but is is super important that everyone understand what makes EvE so much different to other MMOs.
It's the whole non-consensual PvP concept, something instancing in other MMOs are specifically designed to eliminate or mitigate. Once you understand that at any point in time you can be subject to PvP regardless of what you are doing or where you are, only then do you 'get' Eve (in my opinion) |
![Rain6637 Rain6637](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1641623970/portrait?size=64)
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32264
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Posted - 2015.09.04 12:11:49 -
[1188] - Quote
It hasn't been locked because more than ever, EVE is dying and it's important we brainstorm.
This thread is a meeting of the minds.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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![Tippia Tippia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1938874952/portrait?size=64)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25903
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 12:12:45 -
[1189] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:that pvp/pve thing again, cant we just refer to pvp as combat based activity involving to direct opponents because if we refer to everything as pvp then every online game is infact a pvp game As luck would have it, we're not referring to everything as PvP GÇö only things where there is player versus player competition or opposition. After all, that's kind of what the term meansGǪ
Using the term to only discuss combat in EVE would mean we'd have to invent a new term that also means PvP to denote all the other PvP stuff the game has (i.e. just about everything) GǪ but why do that when we already have a term that fits the bill: PvP?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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![Anize Oramara Anize Oramara](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91322842/portrait?size=64)
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
362
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 12:13:36 -
[1190] - Quote
Hahaha CQ, now THERE is something that's irrelevant if there ever was ![Lol](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_lol.png) |
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![Avvy Avvy](https://images.evetech.net/characters/95722189/portrait?size=64)
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
166
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 12:14:05 -
[1191] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:that pvp/pve thing again...
Yeah, I got suckered into the PvP/PvE debate again, but it seemed to start off so innocently.![Oops](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_oops.png) |
![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6751
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 12:18:56 -
[1192] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No-one is claiming that, and your conclusion does not follow from what they'er actually saying. Typo.
Tippia wrote:Because there are two meanings of GÇ£instancedGÇ¥, one of which holds true for every other game, and one that holds true for EVE. You are confusing the two for some reason. There's one meaning, with further subcategories. It's like how you can what white bread and wholemeal, they're still both bread.
Tippia wrote:GǪexcept that in WoW, it is an option; in EVE it is not. Therefore, it is not a PvP game through and through the way EVE is. It's not more optional in WoW than it is in EVE. If you choose to do nothing in EVE and choose to do nothing in WoW you make no impact. The moment you do anything you make an impact.
Tippia wrote:Not only is it not irrelevant GÇö it is the crucial point of difference GÇö but it is also not the claim being made. Oh, and the same does not occur in WoW exactly because of the instancing it has that EVE does not. It does occur exactly the same in WoW and every other MMO, which is what makes it irrelevant. Instancing again is irrelevant. Once you're out of a WoW instance you bring with you everything you got in there which impacts the economy.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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![Tippia Tippia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1938874952/portrait?size=64)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25905
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 12:21:44 -
[1193] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:[I have, I know what the damn term means. Obviously not since you still fail to make the crucial distinction between instances as they're used in every other game and instances are they're (not really) used in EVE.
Quote:So If i sit in a station and do nothing in EVE, I'm affecting people? If I choose to grind isk but then don;t actually spend it on anything, I'm affecting people? The first one is a meaningless tautology. In the second one, yes, you do.
Quote:PvE is also PvP in wow, just with different methods of competition and disruption, etc. GǪexcept that all of that is optional. If you don't want to do it, you can choose not to. This makes it wholly unlike EVE.
Quote:Actually, this was earlier discussed. Some people choose to categorise as: PvP - direct interaction with players. PvE - direct interaction with environment. Competitive PvE - direct interaction with environment, indirect interaction with players. GǪand that is the same useless definition since everything just ends up in the PvP pile, as has been demonstrated on numerous occasions. The only difference is that we have two unused categories rather than one GÇö hardly an improvement.
Quote:What you're getting at is that PvP can be pushed at any time, which I agree, but that doesn't detract from the fact that PvE mechanics exist. And again, I'm not disputing that GÇö I'm only saying that it is far better to communicate what all of it is GÇö PvP GÇö to distinguish EVE from games where you can have PvE without any of the PvP elements, and then use a completely separate set of categories to create subsets of that PvP category.
It makes it very simple to describe EVE on a macro level in five words: GÇ£EVE is a PvP gameGÇ¥. If the prospective player hasn't run for the hills, you can start drilling down into how this PvP manifests itself: competition over resources, competition over space, competition over who has the most EHP etc.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6751
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 12:22:54 -
[1194] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Hahaha CQ, now THERE is something that's irrelevant if there ever was ![Lol](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_lol.png) Mean if you have to use that to support you'r argument you're quite literally grasping at straws. It's still in the game, isn't it?
Again though, it's not to support my argument, since the argument I'm making has nothing to do with instancing. Tippia is trying to twist the definition of instancing then use that as a way to claim that nothing in instanced dungeons in EVE affects the rest of the server, while in EVE, saving the damsel for the Nth time affects everything. In reality, both have an economic impact.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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![Tippia Tippia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1938874952/portrait?size=64)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25905
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 12:27:44 -
[1195] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:There's one meaning, with further subcategories. No. There are numerous meanings, each with radically different contexts and connotations. EVE uses one; other MMOs use another (or maybe even two others); typists coders use a third. EVE's is closer to the coder meaning, which is a long way away from how it is used in general MMO parlance.
Quote:It's not more optional in WoW than it is in EVE. Yes it is. WoW allows you to not interact with other players. It'll be a rather bleak and boring play-though, granted, but it is possible. EVE does not. WoW's instancing is one of the crucial factors that lets this happen.
Quote:It does occur exactly the same in WoW and every other MMO, which is what makes it irrelevant. GǪevery other MMO except EVE, because EVE is not an instanced game like those other MMOs are. Stuff you bring out of a WoW instance has an impact if you enter it into the player economy. You can choose not to, and you can make that choice without doing nothing.
In EVE, not only is there no instancing GÇö meaning the mere fact that you've acquired something has an impact GÇö but you also have no choice in whether or not you will affect the player economy (and no, the worthless tautology of nothing = nothing does not count).
Quote:Tippia is trying to twist the definition of instancing then use that as a way to claim that nothing in instanced dungeons in EVE affects the rest of the server, while in EVE, saving the damsel for the Nth time affects everything. I have never claimed anything even remotely similar to this.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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![Anize Oramara Anize Oramara](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91322842/portrait?size=64)
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
362
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Posted - 2015.09.04 12:29:29 -
[1196] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Hahaha CQ, now THERE is something that's irrelevant if there ever was ![Lol](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_lol.png) Mean if you have to use that to support you'r argument you're quite literally grasping at straws. It's still in the game, isn't it? I don't know, haven't seen it in years so who's to say? Because you know, irrelevant. |
![Salvos Rhoska Salvos Rhoska](https://images.evetech.net/characters/94200397/portrait?size=64)
Salvos Rhoska
1327
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Posted - 2015.09.04 12:30:39 -
[1197] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: PvP - direct interaction with players. PvE - direct interaction with environment. Competitive PvE - direct interaction with environment, indirect interaction with players.
So mining would be competitive PvE, since you compete for the ore. Missions would be standard PvE, as the elements of that which become competition (LP store, isk use on the market) fall under different mechanics, and things such as shooting players, sov warfare and most trading is PvP.
Your definitions are contradictory, and unduly hinge on an ambiguous use of the dichotomy "in/direct". Furthermore you have conveniently removed the concept of "competition" from definitions of both PvP and PvE, and inanely inserted it into a third term (competitive PvE), implying by exclusion that neither PvP or PvE involve competitive, only "direct interaction).
Mining is a PvE activity, in a PvP environment. The second someone else shows up and starts mining the same field as you, you are in "COMPETITIVE" PVP, as you are interacting directly against other players inorder to source the resource out of the field, against their interests.
The ore field does not magically start competing with you, as an AI/NPC/Environment, rendering it competetive pve. YOU ARE NOT COMPETING WITH THE ASTEROID YOU ARE MINING. The OTHER PLAYER makes the situation a competetive interaction, ie: PvP, or in your ridiculous and unneccessary parlance, competitive PvP.
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![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6751
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Posted - 2015.09.04 12:31:33 -
[1198] - Quote
I'm just gonna skip over our circular arguments on instancing which are entirely irrelevant to the point being made. You may continue to have you misunderstanding on what an instance is in a game, it's completely beside the point.
Tippia wrote:GǪexcept that all of that is optional. If you don't want to do it, you can choose not to. This makes it wholly unlike EVE. It's as optional in EVE too. ![Roll](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_roll.png)
Tippia wrote:GǪand that is the same useless definition since everything just ends up in the PvP pile, as has been demonstrated on numerous occasions. The only difference is that we have two unused categories rather than one GÇö hardly an improvement. Only if you're choosing to be special and sticking everything in a single category because you might get shot. Missions are PvE. If someone shows up and shoots you, that doesn't make mission mechanics PvP, it simply means someone put your mission on hold to PvP with you. Mechanics themselves can be quite well categorised.
Tippia wrote:And again, I'm not disputing that GÇö I'm only saying that it is far better to communicate what all of it is GÇö PvP GÇö to distinguish EVE from games where you can have PvE without any of the PvP elements, and then use a completely separate set of categories to create subsets of that PvP category. How is that better? Just going "It's all PvP" is not helpful, since there's clear differences in the underlying mechanics.
Tippia wrote:It makes it very simple to describe EVE on a macro level in five words: GÇ£EVE is a PvP gameGÇ¥. If the prospective player hasn't run for the hills, you can start drilling down into how this PvP manifests itself: competition over resources, competition over space, competition over who has the most EHP etc. But that's fundamentally flawed by the fact that most people take the definition of PvP to mean "all about shooting people in the face". Just because you've redefined it as "has impact on other players" doesn't mean that someone external to the game will know that, and so they would just assume that no form of PvE exists.
Hush now Salvos.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6751
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Posted - 2015.09.04 12:32:27 -
[1199] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Hahaha CQ, now THERE is something that's irrelevant if there ever was ![Lol](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_lol.png) Mean if you have to use that to support you'r argument you're quite literally grasping at straws. It's still in the game, isn't it? I don't know, haven't seen it in years so who's to say? Because you know, irrelevant. The answer is "yes". Please learn about the game you are playing.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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![Anize Oramara Anize Oramara](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91322842/portrait?size=64)
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
362
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Posted - 2015.09.04 12:33:43 -
[1200] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Hahaha CQ, now THERE is something that's irrelevant if there ever was ![Lol](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_lol.png) Mean if you have to use that to support you'r argument you're quite literally grasping at straws. It's still in the game, isn't it? I don't know, haven't seen it in years so who's to say? Because you know, irrelevant. The answer is "yes". Please learn about the game you are playing.
Whoosh over your head ![Lol](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_lol.png) |
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