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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
558
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:22:49 -
[1591] - Quote
The easiest way to sum Eve up is this.
The BACKBONE of this game is PVE and the Market. Without PVE and the Market there would be no ships, ammo, modules, implants anything.
The REASON for the BACKBONE is PVP, with a huge BUT...
The backbone of PVE can feed itself. But it is impossible for the MEAT (PVP) to feed itself.
PVP needs PVE in order for it to exist.
The contrary is not true.
It is a hard concept for the die hards to understand.
But, PVE is much much more rich and meaningful BECAUSE there is PVP.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
558
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:24:43 -
[1592] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Candi LeMew wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Because it is literally impossible to have constant PVP combat in this game, because of the nature of how things have costs and time involved. You must have strong PVE type content to fill the time even if you are a hardened Pew Pew Master. Not exactly. You just sell a plex when you lose a ship and go buy another one. *shrug* It's what I do. Quiet times? I spend that writing, roleplaying or shitposting. I get more enjoyment out of those things, just personally, than any kind of PVE content. But sure, someone, somewhere is doing the PVE work that's building the next ship I'm going to buy. Selling a plex means someone somewhere did enough PVE to get the isk from CCP to buy said plex in game... So no, you can't just sell a plex and get rid of PVE.  Uhhmm no .... I buy plex from CCP website. I sell that plex in Jita for 800m+. No PVE (for me) was required at any stage, and I'm undocking in my new Proteus to go wreck some guys.
You are missing the part of the 800mil isk... where did it come from? Someone somewhere got Rat Bounty, Mission rewards or Blue Loot.
All isk was created by CCP, all Plex was created by CCP. PVP cannot create isk. Therefore all Plex sold begets isks that were gained through PVE at some point.
Don't play this game, you are not good at it.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Candi LeMew
Isogen 5
36657
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:26:49 -
[1593] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Don't play this game, you are not good at it.
Have a look at my edit, and also re-read the very post you quoted.
Don't post on these forums, you're kinda bad at it.
n-â fruít-¦-âwl lík-ö h-âm-ö GÖÑ
Remember... in Anoikis Bob Is Always Watching...
"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
558
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:31:46 -
[1594] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Don't play this game, you are not good at it.
Have a look at my edit, and also re-read the very post you quoted. Don't post on these forums, you're kinda bad at it.
I read what you said. And it was entirely untrue. You may not have personally done the PVE, but someone did. Therefore your argument is irrelevant to the discussion of the game needing PVE.
So, you are either incredibly nearsighted mentally, or you are a troll?
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Arthur Hannigen
4
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:37:41 -
[1595] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Don't play this game, you are not good at it.
Have a look at my edit, and also re-read the very post you quoted. Don't post on these forums, you're kinda bad at it.
I don't think he was talking about the ship you bought. He was referring to the 800M isk that you purchased. |
Candi LeMew
Isogen 5
36657
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:39:08 -
[1596] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:You may not have personally done the PVE, but someone did.
That's exactly what -I- said to begin with, lol.
Now you're repeating it for a third time and wondering if I'm the troll?
By selling a plex to fund my PVP I'm still contributing to the overall cycle, because that's paying someone who did PVE.
My whole point was that despite not personally participating in PVE I'm still contributing to it.
n-â fruít-¦-âwl lík-ö h-âm-ö GÖÑ
Remember... in Anoikis Bob Is Always Watching...
"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
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Salvos Rhoska
1384
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:40:40 -
[1597] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:---
Am I reading you correctly that your position is in agreement that more PvP, in terms of player competition and conflict (either as combat, otherwise or both) is a central mechanism to incentivising, diversifying and adding player content to PvE activities?
(And btw its Lucas calling people trolls, and accusing others of "following him around", not Jenn)
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Candi LeMew
Isogen 5
36657
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:43:23 -
[1598] - Quote
Arthur Hannigen wrote:I don't think he was talking about the ship you bought. He was referring to the 800M isk that you purchased.
Yep ^^
That ISK buys a Proteus that someone had to mine materials for.
Or a Stratios that someone had to run missions to get the LP to purchase.
etc etc
n-â fruít-¦-âwl lík-ö h-âm-ö GÖÑ
Remember... in Anoikis Bob Is Always Watching...
"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
558
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:44:31 -
[1599] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:--- Am I reading you correctly that your position is in agreement that more PvP, in terms of player competition and conflict (either as combat, otherwise or both) is central to incentivising, diversifying and adding player content to PvE activities? (And btw its Lucas calling people trolls, and accusing others of "following him around", not Jenn)
Not in the context you are putting it.
PVP makes PVE more worthwhile.
PVP has not declined in the game even though numbers have.
PVP need PVE to survive
Game numbers are dropping, and it is the PVE side that is showing the largest drops
So I think PVE needs some love, new content, more opportunities, risky or otherwise in order to help PVP survive and thus the game survive.
PVE should always be getting love from CCP because it supports PVP and it supports itself. Where PVP love only supports itself and only when done correctly does it help boost PVE.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Salvos Rhoska
1384
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:46:44 -
[1600] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:--- Am I reading you correctly that your position is in agreement that more PvP, in terms of player competition and conflict (either as combat, otherwise or both) is central to incentivising, diversifying and adding player content to PvE activities? (And btw its Lucas calling people trolls, and accusing others of "following him around", not Jenn) Not in the context you are putting it. PVP makes PVE more worthwhile. PVP has not declined in the game even though numbers have. PVP need PVE to survive Game numbers are dropping, and it is the PVE side that is showing the largest drops So I think PVE needs some love, new content, more opportunities, risky or otherwise in order to help PVP survive and thus the game survive. PVE should always be getting love from CCP because it supports PVP and it supports itself. Where PVP love only supports itself and only when done correctly does it help boost PVE.
You are aware of, and in agreement with, that PvP, as a concept, involves more formats than just combat, yes?
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
560
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:48:06 -
[1601] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote:Arthur Hannigen wrote:I don't think he was talking about the ship you bought. He was referring to the 800M isk that you purchased. Yep ^^ That ISK buys a Proteus that someone had to mine materials for. Or a Stratios that someone had to run missions to get the LP to purchase. etc etc
So again, your PVP needs made the PVE profitable for someone in the game.
Their PVE made your PVP POSSIBLE.
Still think PVE isn't essential for the game? Still think you didn't participate in a PVE function?
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
560
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:49:09 -
[1602] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:--- Am I reading you correctly that your position is in agreement that more PvP, in terms of player competition and conflict (either as combat, otherwise or both) is central to incentivising, diversifying and adding player content to PvE activities? (And btw its Lucas calling people trolls, and accusing others of "following him around", not Jenn) Not in the context you are putting it. PVP makes PVE more worthwhile. PVP has not declined in the game even though numbers have. PVP need PVE to survive Game numbers are dropping, and it is the PVE side that is showing the largest drops So I think PVE needs some love, new content, more opportunities, risky or otherwise in order to help PVP survive and thus the game survive. PVE should always be getting love from CCP because it supports PVP and it supports itself. Where PVP love only supports itself and only when done correctly does it help boost PVE. You are aware of, and in agreement with that PvP, as a concept, involves more formats than just combat, yes?
Yeah, we went around and around with that 20 pages back... which is why I initially said PVP Combat.
I don't want to rehash that argument with some people who think PVP only means killmails. But you understand what I was referring to.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12340
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:53:14 -
[1603] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
(And btw its Lucas calling people trolls, and accusing others of "following him around", not Jenn)
and here we'll get a huge lesson in human nature, because when he thought it was me, ti was a HUGE failing, but now that it's revealed that it was his ally Lucas Kell, it will be ignored or categorized as a simple mistake lol.
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Salvos Rhoska
1384
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:55:38 -
[1604] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:--- Am I reading you correctly that your position is in agreement that more PvP, in terms of player competition and conflict (either as combat, otherwise or both) is central to incentivising, diversifying and adding player content to PvE activities? (And btw its Lucas calling people trolls, and accusing others of "following him around", not Jenn) Not in the context you are putting it. PVP makes PVE more worthwhile. PVP has not declined in the game even though numbers have. PVP need PVE to survive Game numbers are dropping, and it is the PVE side that is showing the largest drops So I think PVE needs some love, new content, more opportunities, risky or otherwise in order to help PVP survive and thus the game survive. PVE should always be getting love from CCP because it supports PVP and it supports itself. Where PVP love only supports itself and only when done correctly does it help boost PVE. You are aware of, and in agreement with that PvP, as a concept, involves more formats than just combat, yes? Yeah, we went around and around with that 20 pages back... which is why I initially said PVP Combat. I don't want to rehash that argument with some people who think PVP only means killmails. But you understand what I was referring to.
Then I dont understand what specific context you mention in the previous post , as the one in which you felt I was framing it, but to which you could not agree.
In what context would PvE not benefit from more PvP competition and conflict (whether combat or otherwise)?
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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
4088
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Posted - 2015.09.08 17:56:59 -
[1605] - Quote
Arthur Hannigen wrote:CCP will need to step up to the plate and regain their grounds with PVE content if they want this game to survive a few more years. Not everyone is interested in combat PVP.
I think there's still hope, but they will need to act quickly and intelligently.
The first step would be to just give more of the same. Brand new missions to buy time to finish the Rubicon plan as it is.
But then CCP should consider turning PvE into something up to the standard of PvP. Anyone willing to commit to interacting with NPC should earn the right and the means to affect other players, much in the way as the will and skill to suicide a Catalyst earns the right and the means to mess with a player who doesn't wants to be messed with.
EVE should be an awesome game no matter how you play it. Shooting brainless NPCs or shooting players should both end up with the possibility to "enable" and "generate" content for other players.
73% of EVE characters stay in high security space. 62% of EVE subscribers barely PvP. 40% of all new accounts just "level up their Ravens". Probably that's why PvE content in EVE Online is sub-par and CCP is head over heels for PvP...
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
560
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Posted - 2015.09.08 18:01:23 -
[1606] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Then I dont understand what specific context you mention in the previous post , as the one in which you felt I was framing it, but to which you could not agree.
In what context would PvE not benefit from more PvP competition and conflict (whether combat or otherwise)?
Because PVP is like a fire, it needs Oxygen to burn (PVE) and if there isn't enough Oxygen then the fire goes out.
Right now we know that PVP is burning out the PVE because the PVE people are leaving. CCP Fozzie confirms, and the killboard numbers are relatively stable even with lower player counts.
So you want to make the fire burn faster without adding more oxygen? I think we need to make the fire bigger by adding more wood, letting it breath and get the oxygen it needs.
Basically, You bring in more opportunities for PVE, then PVP benefits. Since PVP benefits, it helps make PVE better too.
Its a spiral effect.
CCP over the last year has been doing the Toilet Bowl effect. We need to feed the fire, not make it burn faster.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Candi LeMew
Isogen 5
36659
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Posted - 2015.09.08 18:03:44 -
[1607] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Candi LeMew wrote:Arthur Hannigen wrote:I don't think he was talking about the ship you bought. He was referring to the 800M isk that you purchased. Yep ^^ That ISK buys a Proteus that someone had to mine materials for. Or a Stratios that someone had to run missions to get the LP to purchase. etc etc So again, your PVP needs made the PVE profitable for someone in the game. Their PVE made your PVP POSSIBLE.
Exactly! 
That's precisely what I said from the start. I truly have no idea why you're even asking or posting unless you misinterpreted what I was initially saying?
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Still think PVE isn't essential for the game? Still think you didn't participate in a PVE function?
Where did that even come from?
By selling a plex I can avoid directly spending time PVEing myself as an individual. I don't need to mine, I don't need to run missions or trade.This plex-selling process though still contributes to the overall PVE/PVP cycle, as you said, and as I said ... from the very beginning.
n-â fruít-¦-âwl lík-ö h-âm-ö GÖÑ
Remember... in Anoikis Bob Is Always Watching...
"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James
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Salvos Rhoska
1384
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Posted - 2015.09.08 18:11:22 -
[1608] - Quote
Yes, I tend to agree. There are some things that need recognition when they are shown to be false.
Its not a big deal to admit a mistake and it maintains a niveau of integrity and culpability in discussion.
We all make mistakes, sooner or later.
I make efforts to recognize when Ive been shown wrong, address it, apologize and correct it.
Its inconvenient, a bit embarassing, but worth it. I dont catch all of them, or even realize them, but I try.
On the otherhand, you've now made it even more bitter a pill to swallow.
Its often best to leave a defeated antagonist a way out with some of their dignity intact, once your point has been made.
Atleast once.
Cornered people get vicious.
If they dont take it the first time, then yeah, unfortunately they have shown themselves to be dishonest.
Theynwill gladly point out your mistakes, but resolutely refuse to admit theirnown, and discussion with them is no longer lateral.
Back to topic:
I dont see why people so vehemently resist the idea of incorporating more player competition and conflict into PvE.
It doesnt have to be combat PvP. Per my example earlier, I stole ice out of a miners cans. He aggressed me, ofc, but nonetheless, I never fired a single shot. Another example I gave is making Ice fields a random sweeping spawn, which would increase player competition (non combat, again).
There are ways to increase player interaction and competition without ships exploding.
I thinknsome of us have become so locked in (false) ideals of what PvP and PvE are, that we have forgotten to think a bit outside the box for ways they can be integrated.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
560
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Posted - 2015.09.08 18:16:51 -
[1609] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:
(And btw its Lucas calling people trolls, and accusing others of "following him around", not Jenn)
and here we'll get a huge lesson in human nature, because when he thought it was me, ti was a HUGE failing, but now that it's revealed that it was his ally Lucas Kell, it will be ignored or categorized as a simple mistake lol.
I won't go back and edit it, but yes it was Lucas complaining about trolls following him. And no, I don't have any "allies" on the forum lol
You might think this is some kind of popularity contest, but I am not that petty.
The irony still stands however, as your posting about people personally instead of the ideas or topic at hand shows that either you have no valid argument, or you personally attack people out of your own paranoia.
Regardless, please continue to make ignorant and unsubstantiated claims of forum conspiracy and your usual interwebz psychology practices.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Salvos Rhoska
1384
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Posted - 2015.09.08 18:24:53 -
[1610] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Basically, You bring in more opportunities for PVE, then PVP benefits. Since PVP benefits, it helps make PVE better too.
Its a spiral effect.
You view PvP and PvE as dichotomous opposites. But they are not.
PvP merely means conflict and competition against other players.
PvE merely means conflict and competition against NPCs.
They are not opposites.
They are two completely different concepts that can and do co-exist in the same activities.
I understand your logic, but I dont think you are understsnding mine.
PvP, in EVE is the universal context within which all PvE occurs.
Isolation of PvE from that is detrimental, and contradicts the universal rule above.
What I am suggesting and trying to formulate to you, is that all PvE MUST involve player conflict and competition, whether combat or otherwise.
You claim that in EVE PvP cannot exist without PvE.
I rebutt, that in EVE no PvE can exist without PvP.
PvP as in player competition and conflict, combat or otherwise.
As to the idea of new missions by another poster, its pouring water into a leaking bucket.
The quantity of missions does not change their essential boredome and repetetiveness.
Nobody reads the mission text more than once.
Invariably, those missions too become a matter of tedious routine.
Whether there are 20 missions, or 200, its a measure that does not remebdy the core problem of this activity, merely extends it.
The core problem in ALL PvE in EVE, is insufficient player competition and conflict.
Adding more PvE of that nature fixes nothing.
Changing that PvE to include more player competition, however, fixes those issues and creates immeasurable content.
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Kaivar Lancer
Placid Peace Corps
681
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Posted - 2015.09.08 18:34:12 -
[1611] - Quote
Just came back to Eve, and all I can say WTF? I saw PLEX selling close to 1.15B in Amarr.
NOPE! I've seen the value of my ingame work halve over the last few years. I don't think people want to play a game where they must 'play' twice as hard just to keep up. |
Anslo
Scope Works
Dead Terrorists
32155
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Posted - 2015.09.08 18:50:18 -
[1612] - Quote
If people played as much as they whined on forums about stuff, Eve would be in a better place.
Just sayin'.
/me zoidbergs out as the flames speed toward him
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11674
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Posted - 2015.09.08 18:57:14 -
[1613] - Quote
Anslo wrote:If people played as much as they whined on forums about stuff, Eve would be in a better place.
Just sayin'.
/me zoidbergs out as the flames speed toward him
Shut up an...actually that's a fair point.
Carry on.
Better the Devil you know.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25988
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Posted - 2015.09.08 19:01:51 -
[1614] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
So again, your PVP needs made the PVE profitable for someone in the game.
Their PVE made your PVP POSSIBLE.
Still think PVE isn't essential for the game?
It's not, at least not from a world engine perspective. PvE's role in all of that is to faucet ISK into the economy, but it is not alone in this. There are already a pretty significant faucet attached to pure combat, and there's nothing that actually prevents it and other forms of PvP to provide all the ISK the world needs.
Sure, in the current implementation, PvP makes PvE possible and PvE makes PvP possible, but of the two, the PvE part is far easier to outright remove from the mechanics and still have a game left. If you want to see what the opposite looks like, just log in to Sisi and play for a bit GÇö it quickly becomes utterly meaningless.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11674
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Posted - 2015.09.08 19:03:26 -
[1615] - Quote
Sisi is a silly place
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
560
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Posted - 2015.09.08 19:06:48 -
[1616] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
So again, your PVP needs made the PVE profitable for someone in the game.
Their PVE made your PVP POSSIBLE.
Still think PVE isn't essential for the game?
It's not, at least not from a world engine perspective. PvE's role in all of that is to faucet ISK into the economy, but it is not alone in this. There are already a pretty significant faucet attached to pure combat, and there's nothing that actually prevents it and other forms of PvP to provide all the ISK the world needs. Sure, in the current implementation, PvP makes PvE possible and PvE makes PvP possible, but of the two, the PvE part is far easier to outright remove from the mechanics and still have a game left. If you want to see what the opposite looks like, just log in to Sisi and play for a bit GÇö it quickly becomes utterly meaningless.
Isk Faucet from Pure Combat?!
Do tell?
Insurance you say? It doesn't cover modules, and in most cases doesn't cover the build costs of the ship either.
SiSi you say? Yeah, that is exactly what this game would look like if you took PVE out and have PVP all the time. You have PVP without consequence and everyone blows up everyone.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Azda Ja
Green Skull LLC
4339
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Posted - 2015.09.08 19:07:28 -
[1617] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Just came back to Eve, and all I can say WTF? I saw PLEX selling close to 1.15B in Amarr.
NOPE! I've seen the value of my ingame work halve over the last few years. I don't think people want to play a game where they must 'play' twice as hard just to keep up.
Have you considered paying to play instead of playing to pay?
Because sometimes you die. And sometimes we are why. GSLLC is Recruiting.
Grrr I tell you. Grrr.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
560
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Posted - 2015.09.08 19:09:17 -
[1618] - Quote
Azda Ja wrote:Kaivar Lancer wrote:Just came back to Eve, and all I can say WTF? I saw PLEX selling close to 1.15B in Amarr.
NOPE! I've seen the value of my ingame work halve over the last few years. I don't think people want to play a game where they must 'play' twice as hard just to keep up. Have you considered paying to play instead of playing to pay?
Many people apparently hold the belief, right or wrong that the game is Good Enough to play but not Good Enough to pay for.
Which is why Plex is so popular among us.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25988
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Posted - 2015.09.08 19:15:06 -
[1619] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Isk Faucet from Pure Combat?!
Do tell? Insurance.
Quote:It doesn't cover modules, and in most cases doesn't cover the build costs of the ship either. It doesn't have to cover anything other than the original deposit in order to be a faucet, and if you can figure out a way to not make it too exploitable, there's really nothing to stop it from covering your every needGǪ
Quote:SiSi you say? Yeah, that is exactly what this game would look like if you took PVE out and have PVP all the time. You have PVP without consequence and everyone blows up everyone. That's the difference: at least there's some kind of game left. You can still bash people over the head and say that your EFT is better than the other guy's. Doing PvE, on the other hand, serves no purpose whatsoever since it's not needed for anything. You get more meaningful gameplay out of flicking cards into a bucket.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
560
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Posted - 2015.09.08 19:22:48 -
[1620] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Isk Faucet from Pure Combat?!
Do tell? Insurance. Quote:It doesn't cover modules, and in most cases doesn't cover the build costs of the ship either. It doesn't have to cover anything other than the original deposit in order to be a faucet, and if you can figure out a way to not make it too exploitable, there's really nothing to stop it from covering your every needGǪ Quote:SiSi you say? Yeah, that is exactly what this game would look like if you took PVE out and have PVP all the time. You have PVP without consequence and everyone blows up everyone. That's the difference: at least there's some kind of game left. You can still bash people over the head and say that your EFT is better than the other guy's. Doing PvE, on the other hand, serves no purpose whatsoever since it's not needed for anything. You get more meaningful gameplay out of flicking cards into a bucket.
Except there is entire games build around PVE only... maybe not the crap kind Eve offers. But your circular argumentative style is shinning here again.
No, PVP can't provide everything the game needs, someone still has to make the ships to be lost, make the ammo to be shot and there actually needs to be a reason to undock besides "lets 1v1 at the sun"
Otherwise, see SiSi. It is a PVPers dream, no need to ever mine or rat, just shoot stuff.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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