talk about pointing out the obvious.. doesn't mean cos its the worst it should now become by far the best..

Or more of a reason depending on how you look at it, if battlecruisers see more use it seems like battleships would be the natural counter.

I guess that I'm wondering if a BS *can* counter a BC, after these changes.

Seems to me that a BC should be able to more easily kite a BS, with the buffs to both speed and weapon range. Maybe a drone or missile BS would still be ok, but anything with large guns is probably going to do less damage.

I don't see how that's possible. A 25% bonus to medium turrets doesn't get them anywhere near the ranges of their large turret counterparts. Not to mention that many PvP battleships field heavy neuts that stretch out to 25km (even longer if you're in an armageddon). There's no way any of the proposed Battlecruiser projection bonuses will help them avoid damage from Battleships. What it does do is stop Battlecruisers from getting kited by Cruisers as easily.


As for the balances in general. I love them and they're pretty much spot on to the suggested numbers I proposed a while back. As for Command Ships, I think some of them need a look at as well. I think several Command Ships like the Sleipnir and Eos are perfectly fine and that giving them the same role bonuses would be overkill, but I think passing on some of the agility/speed changes to Command Ships would be a good idea.

Sleipnir not so much as the others, but it still needs a MMJD bonus and an increase in cargo space at least.

An increase in Sensor strength would be helpful also.

For arty Sleipnirs people burn in to scram them anyway making the MMJD useless.

Someone can attempt to burn in to scram range on arty sleip. I have an arty sleip fit that was good and used MJD. MJD, XLASB, 720's, MWD, was good kite combination. I also had dual neuts, so most small tackle could get neuted out semi-quick. MJD is more to escape things faster than you that hold a point. Like garmur.

MMJD is far from useless on CS though. I've actually had a number of CS with MJD as its too useful not to use. Vulture has over 100km long range, making MJD dunks easy. Damnation can get over 100km lock range with single range rig. So there are definitely fits that could benefit from a MJD bonus.

[quote=Daniela Doran][quote=Iyacia Cyric'ai] Even bonused how many people would fit an MMJD on a shield tanked CS that's already very fast with good damage projection? A typical brawl Sleip needs scram + web + mwd. That leaves 2 mids for tank (usually dual XLASB). With MMJD that's 1 slot for tank... For arty Sleipnirs people burn in to scram them anyway making the MMJD useless.

CCP Fozzie, I realize this isn't exactly the right thread for this but it is somewhat related. I would like you guys to reduce the jump range for the medium MJD to 75km. My reason for this request is two fold:

1. BC can naturally target ships at 75km so this change to the MJD would allow it to be used within the ships operational range. Yes i know you can increase your targeting range but that is only needed for sniping setups.

2. Dropping it to 75km means that they can still be pointed by ships with the bonus to point range. This provides a counter to using the MJD simply as an escape tool.

I think the large MJD is fine as it is but i think the MJD skill should have a cool-down reduction bonus added to it.

so you want hams to have the same range as small missiles or rockets?
Torps need a range buff. not Hams need a range nerf.

I'm not talking about herp derp frig pilots burning into a double neut Sleipnir, in most cases those are dream kills for the Sleipnir pilot. I'm talking more like hard tackle double LSE/double nos stabbers or cap boosted Svipuls. Keeping an arty Sleipnir long pointed without dying isn't exactly a cakewalk without dying or letting it slip out unless you're in a linked garmur.

Also didn't say MMJD is useless on CS in general, on slow brawl fit CS it's very useful, just that an MMJD bonus on the Sleipnir won't really make it any more or less viable than it currently is, on slow brawl fit CS (particularly armor fit ones) it's very useful, but my opinion it's hardly the go-to option for a Sleipnir, I mean how often do you plan to get perma pointed and not be able to shake it off that you need a Marauder cooldown bonus for it? Passing on the agility/speed buffs to Command Ships will help them farm more in those situations than an MMJD bonus.

Can we get a secondary bonus to all battle cruiser hulls, something that will make them unique in some way.
Suggested boosts are nice, but without considering the ability to mount links, and MJD - there is nothing special about those hulls.

well the natural development would mean rockets being nerfed in range too, they have as good range as medium guns do.

HAMs = 20km
HML = 60km

rockets = 10km
LML = 42km

Torps = 20km
Cruise = 148km

One of these things is not like the other.. and its pretty obvious torps need a range buff and stealth bomber range bonus nerfed to keep it the same.

Or we could leave HAMs alone and keep ignoring this when its mentioned, as the whole argument is just rediculous.

If torp applied better than cruise like short range weapon are technically supposed to, it would not be that big of a problem. Right now, any non bomber torp boat need so much med slot/rig support it's funny to look at.

Also having higher fitting costs than its long range weapon system. Torp/cruise relations are just derpy as hell. I agree with you though.

I was merely pointing out that because HAMs have the same range as torps, does not mean HAM range needs to be nerfed.

I guess that I'm wondering if a BS *can* counter a BC, after these changes.

Seems to me that a BC should be able to more easily kite a BS, with the buffs to both speed and weapon range. Maybe a drone or missile BS would still be ok, but anything with large guns is probably going to do less damage.

Please increase the base targeting range on all BC below 60km, and make 60km the minimum base range. The Prophecy and Cyclone at 50km is too short and even the Myrmidon at 55km. Both drone boats can send their drones out faster, but can't even target far enough away to call it a projection bonus. The Cyclone deserves better than 50km base targeting range.

Well its nice to get a slight buff to these BC's and a range bonus is nice but we'll see, personally a damage output buff would have been better especially when the smaller the ship the more dps it seems to do per isk promoting large gangs to bring smaller ships against smaller gangs having larger ships and taking bigger personal risks and having the disadvantage of speed maneuverability and numbers, for example you can build a :-

Catalyst 500dps at a cost of 10mil isk
Brutix 800 dps at a cost of 50mil isk
Megathron 1200dps at a cost of 250mil isk
Thanatos 1800 dps at a cost of 2bil isk
Moros in siege doing 10k dps and not being able to move for 5mins 3Bil isk
Erebus doing 6k dps and being the most hunted ship in game as well as being only affordable to the richest players with a cost of around 100bil isk

So as can be seen the numbers don't scale and on top of this the larger the ship the harder it becomes to defend against the smaller ships!

Another point I'd like to bring up is the mention of ships like the above mentioned Brutix gaining a hull hp buff does this also come with a chocolate kettle as hull is generally not used as it is not a viable option unless your buffing hull repairers and remote hull repairers and bringing them inline with shields and armour as a viable option.

You do realize there is more to ships than dps numbers right? Can your catalyst tank a gang like a mega can? Can your mega jump past systems like a carrier or dread can? Can your carrier fire a doomsday?

Where have you been? Hull tanked navy brutix gets over 130k EHP with current stats. These buffs could push it to 140-150k depending on fit. Meanwhile it can still pump out 800 well applied dps with neutrons, as it has plenty of fitting.

Also, did your corp call a CTA on your forum post?

Ok how long can your mega tank 25 catalyst doing a total of 12500 dps for? And how many catalysts does it take Code. to kill 1 frieghter?

Oh and another interesting point a titan firing at anything smaller than a battleship is pointless as guns don't track targets and they have no drone bay so no help there.

And yes I mentioned it in corp but theres only 4 of us in corp chat!

Depends how the fight starts and how competent you are as a pilot. Ive tanked a 14 man gang with 3 catalysts, multiple frigs and t2 frigs with a extender rigged application fit drake.

A mega using null could blap a catalyst at range before it becomes an issue. Especially if its a nano mega with MWD. As its speed could dictate range. Then it could blap 25 in the same way. Not all fights start at 0 on a gate with an autopiloting freighter.

Blap dreads/titans were horribly broken at killing subcaps, thats why they were nerfed. Capitals tracking subcaps poorly is working as intended. I still dont see a carrier or dread firing DDs, so titans are still unique there. Also, being able to bridge any ships is unique to titans as well. Can your carrier, dread, mega, brutix, catalyst do any of those things?

Looking at just dps numbers and trying to base an argument around it is a bit narrow minded.

Only 4 in chat with 3-4 alts each?

Forum CTA? Good gods the Imperium should just steamroll this thread to 1000 pages just to introduce you to an actual forum CTA.