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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Dersen Lowery
Scanners Live in Vain
1749
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Posted - 2015.09.11 20:27:04 -
[151] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type.
Just to play devil's advocate: if kinetic is the worst damage type, then if the Drake had a flat bonus then nobody would ever load Scourge, right? Why would you opt to fire into a resist wall?
So what the Kinetic "lock" actually does is counter the fact that so many ships have high kinetic resists, making Scourge a viable and even desirable option as ammunition.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17009
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Posted - 2015.09.11 20:28:06 -
[152] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:this whole thing sucks, but I really do like seeing generic (optimal + falloff) range bonuses. it's pretty horrible getting an optimal bonus on a projectile ship, or pretty much any range bonus on a gallente ship (T2 ammo blasters being about as much optimal as falloff, and antimatter being all falloff).
Uh, the Myrm and Brutix are getting an optimal and falloff bonus
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17009
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Posted - 2015.09.11 20:29:02 -
[153] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Malcanis wrote:They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type. Just to play devil's advocate: if kinetic is the worst damage type, then if the Drake had a flat bonus then nobody would ever load Scourge, right? Why would you opt to fire into a resist wall? So what the Kinetic "lock" actually does is counter the fact that so many ships have high kinetic resists, making Scourge a viable and even desirable option as ammunition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism#Modern_usage
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Arch-Magus Mephisto
Black Scorpions Inc Fidelas Constans
9
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Posted - 2015.09.11 20:29:31 -
[154] - Quote
The Hubbub about the Drake is still sorta misplaced. Yeah sure you can make it about as tanky as a Battlship but it's still slow and heavy missile damage isn't that fantastic. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2724
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Posted - 2015.09.11 20:31:32 -
[155] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:Ao Kishuba wrote:[quote=CCP Fozzie] I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out.[/i]
Then why aren't Gallente drones damage locked? Or Amarr drones? Or Minmatar missiles or projectiles? Why is Caldari the only race with an artificial damage lock on a weapon system which should otherwise be free to use any damage type? What?! .................... Damage types of Existing weapon systems and what damage type they are locked to. Gallente Drones - Thermal Amarr Drones - EM Caldari Drones - Kinetic Minmitar Drones - Explosive Gecko - Universal Hybrid weapons: Kinetic/Thermal Lazors: EM/thermal Projectiles - Damage type varies, DPS changes based on range with nerfs with penalties hitting certain areas, certain damage applying differently to Shields or Armor. Nuclear, Lead, Proton - Range Bonus 60% , tracking Speed Mult 1.05x Titanium, Uranium - Tracking Speed Mult 1.2x Fusion, Plasma, Emp - Range bonus -50% Tracking speed Mult 1x Missiles: Scourge: Kinetic Inferno: Thermal Nova: Explosive Mjolnir: EM Ship types Locked into Damage Types: Any Hybrid Turret Boat is Locked into firing thermal/Kinetic Any Laser Boat is locked into firing EM/Thermal SOME Caldari missile boats are locked into Kinetic Projectile boats can change Damage types while having to remember each penalty for each ammo type as well as which two damage types that ammo type did, range it worked at and if it worked better against shields or Armor for each combat situation they are getting into. Some of Caldari ships are Kinetic locked? While except for Projectiles and Drones(almost every ship today has them.. no longer a gallente thing..) every other weapon type has locked damage. Great OK, let's only give the Myrmidon bonuses to Gallente drones. That'll make it more interesting! And let's only give the Hurricane turret bonuses while using Fusion Ammo! Gallente drones already do the most damage tho...
Drones have a very noticeable change in damage from gallente to minmatar, while this isnt hull specific since it affects all drone boats, it's still there.
Same with projectiles. You have a huge split between its primary and secondary damage types (with no primary kinetic) and a couple of them even have opposing secondary damages like EMP that does about 25% of its secondary/tertiary (explosive/kinetic) on the opposite end of the spectrum.
Missiles are the only weapon system that has full and untethered selectability. On that note, you'll notice that each faction of missile boats has its own bonuses that favor one loadout over another.
Looking at the different damage types available in a given weapon system leaves a lot on the table.
The biggest issue with the bonuses really, is the heavy-handed bonuses like on the drake and condor. It makes it a much harder choice to use non-kinetic since you lose the 50% bonus, which is huge. Also the inconsistency of the bonuses, but thats more annoying than problematic.
And with that in mind, most caldari ships (I might gamble to say all) that have a kinetic bonus, also have more launchers than their class counterparts. If not extra bonuses too.
damage specific bonuses are not bad, but heavy bonuses can be a pain. |
Lucius Exitius
Trademarque Alternate Allegiance
47
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Posted - 2015.09.11 20:36:36 -
[156] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Malcanis wrote:They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type. Just to play devil's advocate: if kinetic is the worst damage type, then if the Drake had a flat bonus then nobody would ever load Scourge, right? Why would you opt to fire into a resist wall? So what the Kinetic "lock" actually does is counter the fact that so many ships have high kinetic resists, making Scourge a viable and even desirable option as ammunition.
Well, that is actually a very good point. It makes a lot of sense. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17011
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Posted - 2015.09.11 20:44:23 -
[157] - Quote
Lucius Exitius wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:Malcanis wrote:They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type. Just to play devil's advocate: if kinetic is the worst damage type, then if the Drake had a flat bonus then nobody would ever load Scourge, right? Why would you opt to fire into a resist wall? So what the Kinetic "lock" actually does is counter the fact that so many ships have high kinetic resists, making Scourge a viable and even desirable option as ammunition. Well, that is actually a very good point. It makes a lot of sense.
"The Drake does normal damage for it's class when firing Kinetic missiles, and 2/3 as much when firing anything else. Can't you see why this is actually a good thing for the Drake???"
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Hengle Teron
Order In Disorder Virtus Crusade Protectorate
57877
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Posted - 2015.09.11 20:45:11 -
[158] - Quote
Funny, but the navy Cane is the only ship getting decreased base damage. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1975
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Posted - 2015.09.11 20:48:16 -
[159] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Lucius Exitius wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:Malcanis wrote:They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type. Just to play devil's advocate: if kinetic is the worst damage type, then if the Drake had a flat bonus then nobody would ever load Scourge, right? Why would you opt to fire into a resist wall? So what the Kinetic "lock" actually does is counter the fact that so many ships have high kinetic resists, making Scourge a viable and even desirable option as ammunition. Well, that is actually a very good point. It makes a lot of sense. "The Drake does normal subpar when application is considered, damage for it's class when firing Kinetic missiles, and 2/3 as much when firing anything else. Can't you see why this is actually a good thing for the Drake???"
Fixed.
Make the missile speed bonus an application one please. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1975
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Posted - 2015.09.11 20:49:37 -
[160] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote:Funny, but the navy Cane is the only ship getting decreased base damage.
Barely, it has 2x5% bonuses today, vs 1x10% tomorrow. |
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Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers Goonswarm Federation
215
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Posted - 2015.09.11 20:57:04 -
[161] - Quote
Ao Kishuba wrote:Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:Ao Kishuba wrote:[quote=CCP Fozzie] I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out.[/i]
Then why aren't Gallente drones damage locked? Or Amarr drones? Or Minmatar missiles or projectiles? Why is Caldari the only race with an artificial damage lock on a weapon system which should otherwise be free to use any damage type? What?! .................... Damage types of Existing weapon systems and what damage type they are locked to. Gallente Drones - Thermal Amarr Drones - EM Caldari Drones - Kinetic Minmitar Drones - Explosive Gecko - Universal Some of Caldari ships are Kinetic locked? While except for Projectiles and Drones(almost every ship today has them.. no longer a gallente thing..) every other weapon type has locked damage. Not sure why you listed different racial drones... every bonused drone ship gets a bonus to all drones (some are restricted to a size of drone, but never to a damage type or race), so listing separate racial drones is like listing different missile types and saying "See? It's damage locked". There is a difference between "My battleship has 50mbit/s of bandwidth and is bonused for missiles" and "My cruiser can field a flight of sentries and gets several bonuses use them". I'm talking about main weapon systems, not utility drones. edit: and again, you've missed that every non-Caldari missile ship in the game (with the exception of the Talwar) is not damage locked. Caldari are the only race without a selectable-damage main weapon system in every ship class.
Every Ship class? Since i'm bored as hell and fly Caldari a decent amount of times without having to worry about Kinetic missiles.. I decided to Look into all the Caldari ships to Verify that Every Class is unable to select Damage for its main weapon system.
Caldari ships NOT damage Locked - T1 Missile Bonused Hulls
Kestrel -Frigate Class: No damage lock Caldari Frigate bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket damage 10% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket max velocity
Caracal- Cruiser class : An Often used PVP ship across all regions - No Damage Lock Caldari Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to Rapid Light Missile, Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire 10% bonus to Light Missile, Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile max velocity
Raven - Battleship Class: This ship seeing ALOT of PVP usage lately - No Damage Lock Caldari Battleship bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to Rapid Heavy Missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire 10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo max velocity
Phoenix - Dreadnought Class - No Damage Lock Caldari Dreadnought bonuses (per skill level): 4% bonus to all shield resistances 5% bonus to Citadel Cruise and Citadel Torpedo Launcher rate of fire Role Bonus: GÇó Can fit Siege modules
Caldari Ships that Are Kinetic Locked - T1 Hulls Condor - Frigate Class Corax - Destroyer Class Drake - Battlecruiser
4 Missile boats NOT locked on damage type Kestrel, Caracal, Raven, Phoenix 3 Missile boats Locked Condor, Corax, Drake
Tech 2 Hulls.
T2 Missile Bonused Hulls Not Locked Crow - Interceptor Jackdaw - Tactical Destroyer Widow - Black Ops Golem - Marauder
T2 Missile Bonus Hulls Kinetic Locked Hawk - Assault Frigate Manticore - Bomber Flycatcher - Interdictor Cerberus - HAC Onyx - Heavy Interdictor Nighthawk - Command ship
T2 hulls have 6 locked 4 not locked
Navy Issues (since why not finish off the types...)
Caldari Navy Hookbill - 20% bonus to Kinetic Light missile and rocket Damage + 10% bonus to EM, Explosive, thermal for light missiles and rockets. Since the larger Bonus is towards Kinetic.. I'll throw this as Locked for ya to save debating Caracal Navy Issues - Not Locked Drake Navy Issue - Not Locked Raven Navy Issue - Not Locked
Navy Hulls have 3 Not Locked to 1 locked.
Tech 3 Tengu Offensive subsystems have 2 Not Locked and 1 Locked.
All classes are NOT damage Locked. Plenty of ships to choose from across the spectrum.
You may continue your argument about how they are all forced to use one damage type now.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17013
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:00:48 -
[162] - Quote
The kestrel, caracal and phoenix used to have a kinetic lock
Let's all pause for a moment and mourn the loss of interest in those ships since they became so much less interesting.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers Goonswarm Federation
215
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:07:29 -
[163] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:The kestrel, caracal and phoenix used to have a kinetic lock
Let's all pause for a moment and mourn the loss of interest in those ships since they became so much less interesting.
I dunno man, I seen a lot of Kestrels running around before the Tac destroyers came out. I still see Caracals all over the place, Especially after that amazing makeover they got. |
unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
131
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:09:11 -
[164] - Quote
I just notice that Drake Navy issue while get nice boost, actual lost its range bonus.
Current Drake Navy issue have 10% per level for range, 50% when have max BC level.
new Drake navy issue only have 25%.
is it intended? |
ArmyOfMe
No.Mercy Triumvirate.
448
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:10:17 -
[165] - Quote
Cyclone still has **** dps, at least if u want to fit a tank as well. So please look a bit more into that.
QUOTE CCP Dolan and the EVE Online development team:-áThe battle was relatively even for some time with CFC and Russian forces holding moderate lead at first and only have a slight lead in Titan kills. Then came a turning point in the battle. Manfred Sideous, the initial Fleet Commander for PL/N3, handed over command to the CEO of Northern Coalition., Vince Draken
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17015
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:10:34 -
[166] - Quote
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:Malcanis wrote:The kestrel, caracal and phoenix used to have a kinetic lock
Let's all pause for a moment and mourn the loss of interest in those ships since they became so much less interesting. I dunno man, I seen a lot of Kestrels running around before the Tac destroyers came out. I still see Caracals all over the place, Especially after that amazing makeover they got.
Wow you're completely correct, removing the kinetic lock doesn't make ships less interesting, it makes them actually useful and popular.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Darius Caliente
The Pinecone Squad Clockwork Pineapple
106
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:10:59 -
[167] - Quote
I'd really like to see the missile ships get a bonus to rapid lights as wells. |
Alexis Nightwish
326
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:14:16 -
[168] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Malcanis wrote:They just suck, particularly when the damage lock is on such a poor damage type, in fact arguably the worst damage type. Just to play devil's advocate: if kinetic is the worst damage type, then if the Drake had a flat bonus then nobody would ever load Scourge, right? Why would you opt to fire into a resist wall? So what the Kinetic "lock" actually does is counter the fact that so many ships have high kinetic resists, making Scourge a viable and even desirable option as ammunition. This would be true if the kinetic damage bonus was much higher, and there was a lesser bonus to non-kinetic. However as it stands with all the kin locked ships, you can either fire kinetic and do meh damage due to high kinetic resists on everything not T1, or you can fire not kinetic and do crap damage due to having no bonus.
To me, missiles and drones have the advantage of being able to select a singular damage type, with the disadvantages of delayed damage (flight time till damage occurs) and weapon system destruction (missiles and drones can be destroyed). Now they've gone and removed that advantage and provided nothing in return.
Removing options is not good for any game, especially a sandbox. You can say that people can still choose to use different ammo, but it's just the illusion of choice and the result is a bunch of dudes running around only shooting scourge because there's really no other viable option.
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Fixing bombs, not the bombers
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Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers Goonswarm Federation
215
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:15:26 -
[169] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:Malcanis wrote:The kestrel, caracal and phoenix used to have a kinetic lock
Let's all pause for a moment and mourn the loss of interest in those ships since they became so much less interesting. I dunno man, I seen a lot of Kestrels running around before the Tac destroyers came out. I still see Caracals all over the place, Especially after that amazing makeover they got. Wow you're completely correct, removing the kinetic lock doesn't make ships less interesting, it makes them actually useful and popular.
Right after I hit post and realized I was talking to the king of setups and sarcasm. I face palmed.. contemplated editing and said screw it.. just take it like a real pilot.. He's either going get me.. or hit elsewhere :P It went elsewhere ... but damn it lol Must have New York blood in you |
Ao Kishuba
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:15:52 -
[170] - Quote
If putting damage locks on missile ships is healthy, why aren't Minmatar ships damage locked? |
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Align Planet1
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
84
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:20:25 -
[171] - Quote
Overall, I'm very happy with the direction. I do have two comments:
1. Every race except Caldari has an alternative weapon system that allows for damage type variation. Although I would greatly prefer missile damage bonuses to apply for all damage types on all missile ships -- Caldari or otherwise -- I would settle for a compromise that allowed Caldari missile ships to have the same bonus for thermal missiles that they get for kinetic missiles (on hulls where they are presently kinetic locked). That would allow at least some variation for counter-play, while giving Caldari boats the exclusive and somewhat interesting quirk of having a primary thermal damage weapon. And you'd still have Gallente armor ships as a reasonably direct counter, since they typically have equal kin/therm resists.
2. I would suggest that the second utility high on the Cyclone is more of a weakness than a strength of the hull. An extra launcher slot, or moving a high slot to a mid, would make the hull more versatile without breaking it. |
Colonel Santiago
Hax. Shadow Cartel
3
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:24:08 -
[172] - Quote
+1 awesome changes |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4639
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:28:59 -
[173] - Quote
CCP Fozzie, would you consider giving the Drake a 5% rate of fire bonus instead of the flat +10% kinetic damage bonus?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Gneeznow
Chemically Unbalanced
112
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:29:05 -
[174] - Quote
Cyclone could probably use a bit more . . . something
Maybe a bonus to rapid lights? Maybe -1 low and +1 mid? Some kind of built in capacitor safeguard for lower cap shield boosting?
Also not a fan of the Ferox changes, I would rather the 7 guns with shield resistances to be honest.
All in all though, cool set of changes for the most part. |
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers Goonswarm Federation
216
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:29:07 -
[175] - Quote
Ao Kishuba wrote:If putting damage locks on missile ships is healthy, why aren't Minmatar ships damage locked?
Why isn't the Drone race the only race using drones? Why isn't the Missile race the only race using missiles?
Multiple ship types are damage locked. Your just unhappy that the ones you fly are kinetic. You still HAVE the option of changing damage type against what its bonused For. It's not FORCED on you. Your weapon system is not locked. Your ship is not locked. You have the option of changing at your will. It's just Bonused towards it. You feel you are locked in because of the Bonus. Plenty of times tho I have changed ammo off of Bonused ammo to get better hits on something. You just need to know when to cycle ammo.
Hybrid ships are Locked Damage type. No way to change it. Lazors are Locked Damage type. It EM/thermal.. no matter how much you stare at it.
Hell you want to see some fun, everyone tanks high EM/therm/Kinetic. This covers most of the races. Some will get the Explosive tanked high also. Run around with nova ammo even on a Kinetic bonused ship, watch the fun because someone thinks your going to be firing scourge and tanks high kinetic. |
Hengle Teron
Order In Disorder Virtus Crusade Protectorate
57882
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:29:45 -
[176] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:Funny, but the navy Cane is the only ship getting decreased base damage. Barely, it has 2x5% bonuses today, vs 1x10% tomorrow. No, it has dps of 10 turrets today and 9 turrets tomorrow. |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
111
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:31:49 -
[177] - Quote
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:Here's an idea: give the medium micro jump drive a bonus to targeting range while active. Right now MMJD is only usable as a defensive module except for the buffer tanked Myrmidon, Gnosis and N. Harbinger which can afford to sacrifice their 5th midslot for a sensor booster. This would allow battlecruisers to start locking as they spool up their MMJD which would make them a real threat to kiting ships which is very useful and much needed. This is a really cool idea worth looking at. It would also work well on the BS version. |
Bakuhz
Ebon Cartel Sixth Empire
168
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:44:33 -
[178] - Quote
Destoya wrote:This flat 12.5% drone velocity bonus on the Proph and Myrm is a little strange in my opinion. Was there any consideration made to it being something like 10% speed, 10% tracking? I have concerns that increasing the drone speed without increasing tracking as well will cause the drones to miss more often against small targets, and against heavier targets the drone speed bonus is hardly worth considering.
I know sentry drone tracking is something that you are pretty wary about giving out after the Domi and Ishtar but I hardly think a small flat bonus would break these two ships in the sentry role.
it's their MW speed so jsut the closing speed their orbits should stay the same
https://zkillboard.com/character/584042527/
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1975
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:49:45 -
[179] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote:afkalt wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:Funny, but the navy Cane is the only ship getting decreased base damage. Barely, it has 2x5% bonuses today, vs 1x10% tomorrow. No, it has dps of 10 turrets today and 9 turrets tomorrow.
So...barely then.
And the applied damage bonuses will likely make up for it by allowing more dmaage further out to faster targets. There is more to eve than paper. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
133
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Posted - 2015.09.11 21:57:10 -
[180] - Quote
I'd like to see more agility or warp speed increases across the board as that I believe is what is lacking at the moment in terms of actual practical combat use.
Also I'd find a tracking bonus far more useful on a lot of those ships rather than the optimal/falloff bonus. This optimal/falloff bonus doesn't seem right, it is a blanket buff across the whole class which benefits some ships a lot more than others.
Also the Ferox seems like it will be too powerful with these changes in a sniping setup. One of the key drawbacks of battlecruisers over battleships is that the battlecruiser cannot MJD away from a target and maintain its lock and weapon range except for the myrmidon and prophechy which are both drone boats so their drones continue to attack whether they have lock or not.
I'd suggest having another look at the Ferox, perhaps change one of the bonuses to a tracking bonus so it doesn't become a better sniping ship than a tier 3 BC or Battleship.
Also the Ferox is more agile than the Hurricane? Surely that is a mistake. Someone must love Ferox's at CCP as you have definitely overdone its buffs there. |
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