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| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Aaron
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Posted - 2007.01.07 00:45:00 -
[1]
Hi
I just lost a raven,
I was ratting and i saw 6 known hostiles come into system, i warped between safe spots for a few minutes then I logged off, I definatly knew i was not aggro'ed.
I logged back in and found my ship and pod had been destroyed. i logged off @ 21:59, my ship was destroyed @ 22:07 so the 2 minute timer does not apply here.
Upon speaking to the killer he said he shot at the wreckage I left behind from NPC'ing to aggro me, I logged off with the belief that i wasnt aggro'ed,
Has anyone heard of this? or seen any threads relating to this tactic?
I think players need to be made fully aware that they are aggro'ed. I feel this is an exploit that need to be addressed asap.
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Sul Sonic
Caldari
Mining Bytes Inc.
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Posted - 2007.01.07 00:47:00 -
[2]
Shooting wreckage hardly seems like aggression.
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Aaron
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Posted - 2007.01.07 00:49:00 -
[3]
based on the fact that i have reviewed that seems to be the case.
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Drake Mezcal
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.01.07 00:56:00 -
[4]
If they managed to probe you out and shoot you within 2minutes of loggin off, this gives u a 15minute aggro timer from the second you were shot.
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Lord Slater
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.01.07 00:59:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Drake Mezcal
If they managed to probe you out and shoot you within 2minutes of loggin off, this gives u a 15minute aggro timer from the second you were shot.
I think you need to read the OP's post one of the agressors shot a npc wreck that belonged to the victim.
-----------------------------------------------
YYAARRHH HAHAHA IM THE HAPPY PIRATE
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Heather Maidla
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Posted - 2007.01.07 02:20:00 -
[6]
Nice to know Rapid Motion support logoffski!
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Sovy Kurosei
Amarr
Therianthropic Technologies
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Posted - 2007.01.07 02:25:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Heather Maidla
Nice to know Rapid Motion support logoffski!
That wasn't a "logoffski".
___________________
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Kunming
Amarr
Outcasts
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Posted - 2007.01.07 02:34:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sovy Kurosei
Originally by: Heather Maidla
Nice to know Rapid Motion support logoffski!
That wasn't a "logoffski".
Yeah hardly a "logoffski"..
Has anyone tested this btw? (too tired and drunk to log on atm )
Quote:
READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr
Dark Entropy
Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.01.07 04:26:00 -
[9]
that must be boarder line exliot! if not it is one
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During the extended downtime |
Aeaus
Tabula Rasa Systems
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.01.07 04:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad
that must be boarder line exliot! if not it is one
If shooting the wreckage gives aggression then yes, that's an exploit.
I also know that having somebody die to your POS will give you agression for some obscure reason.
Tanking Survivability Calculator
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Paladineguru
Gallente
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.07 04:29:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Paladineguru on 07/01/2007 04:25:20
i havnt tested it but it makes sense due to the flagging system in place to stop ore thieves
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MrLobster
Cosmic Odyssey
Chorus of Dawn
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Posted - 2007.01.07 04:41:00 -
[12]
I just reinstalled windows this very night after logging off from eve, now my eve client is telling me that i have an incorrect build (after downloading the client on the website 27912).
Is eve currently offline?? and is it because of this? the patchs page doesnt work either 
______
Better? - MrLobster |
Baleorg
Gallente
Guys of Sarcasm
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Posted - 2007.01.07 05:21:00 -
[13]
nice hijack.... you can find alternate patches (for your client,too) if you click my sig
good night :-P
BTW: A GOOD Cache-Cleaner |
Domalais
Equilibrium LLC
United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.01.07 07:27:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Drake Mezcal
If they managed to probe you out and shoot you within 2minutes of loggin off, this gives u a 15minute aggro timer from the second you were shot.
No, it doesn't. If you are aggroed after you log w/o aggro timer, you will disappear after 2 minutes no matter how much you are shot.
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hangnoose
Caldari
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.07 09:10:00 -
[15]
Yes there is currently a bug...
Person A is ratting
Person B comes in
Person A warps off/logs w/e
Person B shoots person A's wreck
Person A now has agro timer.
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Devil Hanzo
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.01.07 10:20:00 -
[16]
Please bug report this. There was a similar post yesterday too, with a guy losing a Raven after he logged off with no aggro timer. I think you might be on to something.
King of the Pink Sig - Karl Chroimcer
Its red and very manly! - Devil Hanzo
First sigjack by me ever. - Garthagk
Violet would be even manlier - Conuion Meow
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Aaron
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Posted - 2007.01.07 11:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Heather Maidla
Nice to know Rapid Motion support logoffski!
Come on heather lets be realistic here!! How on earth can I take on 6 ships fitted with a PVP setup, In my raven setup for NPC'ing. Just like in real life you would not fight a group of people if your on your own, u would try and walk away,
If I try to take on these guys i die, If i try and log off i am a coward, I cant win with you ganksters,
You sound like one of those players that would take on 1 pilot with about 50 ships. IMPOSSIBLE ODDS.
I think the programmers should look at this seriously, they should make sure that players know they are aggro'ed and if the odds are silly then the person should not be aggro'ed.
I happy that this looks like a possible expliot so it means i may be reimbursed.
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zaqq
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Posted - 2007.01.07 11:59:00 -
[18]
again, another exploit in use by so called pvpers, i rest my case.
pirates obviously cannot grasp the concept of simply moving on to another system and search for another target.
you are in effect helping to kill off pvp by abusing the system.
your choice. make the call
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Ander
Gallente
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2007.01.07 12:09:00 -
[19]
"It's not a bug - it's a feature"
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
Shao Daar
United Alliance
Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.01.07 12:15:00 -
[20]
I'd just like to poin out that the OP didn't use "logoffski".
He warped between safespots, and then disconnected. His enemies didn't find him / didn't engage (whole exploit / bug aside).
IF they had found him, and he'd log off THEN (when seeign them on his bugged overview  ), THAT would have been a clear "logoffski".
And it IS a lame tactic, to be sure. Just as lame as trying to probe out smaller ships that log off at a POS (tho I'm not sure if this is still possible).
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Jiekon
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Posted - 2007.01.07 12:29:00 -
[21]
Please send a bug report and file an exploit petition. As far as i am aware this should not happen.
___________________________
~Jiekon
Known Issues
Bug Reporting
Guides for new Revelations Features
███████████████
███████████████
███████████████
███████████████
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MindBender
Acheron Vanguard Armada
Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.01.07 12:37:00 -
[22]
Edited by: MindBender on 07/01/2007 12:33:33
And so say we all.
Wait... anyhow, Jiekon has spoken, hope you already put in an Exploit ticket. That would have been my first step. Make sure to link this thread in the ticket, GMs like all the data possible.
---
Place Sig here (Help a man with no Sig, Eve-Mail me if you can make me one.) |
Constantine Arcanum
Gallente
IMPERIAL SENATE
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.01.07 12:46:00 -
[23]
When you are NPCing, you have an aggression timer already started. As long as you have this timer, you can be probed, AFAIK.
Suppose you just got unlucky.
I helped - Cortes
What a shiny and lovely place here - Eshtir
Well lets make it a party atleast :D -Xorus
RAWWWR!11!!1!2 SIG HIJACK!!11!1
I found it first, get orrrfff moiiii laaannnd - Cortes |
Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.01.07 14:24:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Constantine Arcanum
When you are NPCing, you have an aggression timer already started. As long as you have this timer, you can be probed, AFAIK.
Suppose you just got unlucky.
The npc aggro timer is supposed to be much shorter, 5min at most. Both before and after logging.
----------------------------------------
A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Kaar
Art of War
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.07 14:28:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Hoshi
Originally by: Constantine Arcanum
When you are NPCing, you have an aggression timer already started. As long as you have this timer, you can be probed, AFAIK.
Suppose you just got unlucky.
The npc aggro timer is supposed to be much shorter, 5min at most. Both before and after logging.
Huh? What? No.
NPC aggression doesnt affect your log off timer.
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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr
Dark Entropy
Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.01.07 14:34:00 -
[26]
forgot to mention.
Cloaking device is your best friend in 0.0
not sure or not BUT!
if you cloak and then log.. I am sure u stay cloaked till you disapear from local.
thats how it worked for my alt yesterday.
-
During the extended downtime |
deathforge
The Accursed
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Posted - 2007.01.07 14:35:00 -
[27]
Edited by: deathforge on 07/01/2007 14:37:26
Originally by: Sul Sonic
Shooting wreckage hardly seems like aggression.
Does firing on a wreck/can that is not of your corp in high sec not invoke concord? I could have sworn it did, but I'm not allowed in high sec these days.
If its enough to bring concord, I'd have to guess its treated as pvp in the eyes of the logoffski timer, even if its your own just as firing on a corp mate starts your logoffski timer.
Then again, I don't make a habbit of logging off to avoid conflicts, so I'm not entirely clear on the mechanics.
Low skillpoint rifter video: Linkage |
Bazman
Caldari
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.01.07 14:38:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad
forgot to mention.
Cloaking device is your best friend in 0.0
not sure or not BUT!
if you cloak and then log.. I am sure u stay cloaked till you disapear from local.
thats how it worked for my alt yesterday.
That doesn't work, if you were watching your alt with your main character, what you most likely seen was a delay between logging your alt off and seeing it warp off on your main character. It usually takes like 10 seconds when I see this myself. If you log off while cloaked, your cloak will deactivate and you will warp off, same as usual.
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OMG READ TUXFORD!!!1 |
Kunming
Amarr
Outcasts
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Posted - 2007.01.07 15:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Bazman
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad
forgot to mention.
Cloaking device is your best friend in 0.0
not sure or not BUT!
if you cloak and then log.. I am sure u stay cloaked till you disapear from local.
thats how it worked for my alt yesterday.
That doesn't work, if you were watching your alt with your main character, what you most likely seen was a delay between logging your alt off and seeing it warp off on your main character. It usually takes like 10 seconds when I see this myself. If you log off while cloaked, your cloak will deactivate and you will warp off, same as usual.
Not only cloak, all mods will deactivate, unless its a disconnect, in which case your mods might be still active and your drones still fighting out there if you make a quick reconnect.
Quote:
READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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umah
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Posted - 2007.01.07 21:56:00 -
[30]
Hmmm....
Would be interesting to know if this figured in the CYVOK Titan kill.
Don't think it was considered as a possible mechanism for resetting his timer.
Originally by: hangnoose
Yes there is currently a bug...
Person A is ratting
Person B comes in
Person A warps off/logs w/e
Person B shoots person A's wreck
Person A now has agro timer.
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Zzebulon
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Posted - 2007.01.07 23:15:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Drake Mezcal
If they managed to probe you out and shoot you within 2minutes of loggin off, this gives u a 15minute aggro timer from the second you were shot.
NOT
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Naskaya
Elegance
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.03 11:29:00 -
[32]
Hi,
One of my corpmates has lost a raven this morning in the same issue.
Was npcing, seeing hostiles in local, he warped out immediately, leaving behind him some wrecks, then go through some safe spots.
He never saw them in overview. He asks me if npc timer is relevant for being probed.
As I told him he got no pvp timer, he can logoff. (his ship is not fitted for pvp).
He do so, and one hour later, as he reconnects, he finds himself at the station, podkilled.
He has petitionned on this matters.
If shooting the wrecks can activate a pvp timer, i'll stop npcing until CCP correct this.
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Naskaya
Elegance
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.03 11:30:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Naskaya on 03/02/2007 11:27:51
[bug in double post - delete]
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
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Posted - 2007.02.03 11:40:00 -
[34]
I've heard of this as well.
File it under exploit, and the ask for reimbursement.
Galactic Express Recruitment Post
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Djerin
Obsidian Exploration Services
The Pentagram
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Posted - 2007.02.03 11:43:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Naskaya
He asks me if npc timer is relevant for being probed.
As I told him he got no pvp timer, he can logoff.
Can anyone confirm this? I thought NPC'ing invokes a timer too. A corpie lost a battleship to pirate - because of this i thought. Now you're saying there is no timer meaning you can actually log off and not being probeable. If that's true my corpie lost his battleship to the same exploit like 4 weeks ago.
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HottieWitAbody
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Posted - 2007.02.03 11:54:00 -
[36]
Since this has been happening for a couple weeks it's nice to see the devs are right on top of it 
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Amazoph
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.03 11:55:00 -
[37]
I just lost a dominix to this wreck exploit. Petitioned it but i doubt I'll get my ship back for ages...
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Allantia
FW Inc
Kith of Venal
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Posted - 2007.02.03 11:57:00 -
[38]
Lost a ship + pod in exactly the same manner last night. 10 minutes between last NPC contact and loggoff, and my ship was destroyed 14 minutes after logoff (24 min after last combat/contact of any type).
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Amazoph
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.03 12:02:00 -
[39]
Addition... I filed a petition under exploits but it got moved to ships and combat which as everyone knows has a 2 month-odd queue... 
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Nev Clavain
Wise Guys
Rogue Method Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.03 12:08:00 -
[40]
Yes it is a known exploit/bug.
My opinion is the reimbursement should come out of the pocket of those who brazenly admit they are deliberately using this exploit to gain kills.
If you have chat logs of the convo/mail where the guy admits it, I'd include those in your petition.
I can understand and almost sympathise with the use of some exploits and bugs in some circumstances. This one however is just really really cheap, and needs to be stopped as soon as possible.
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Baleorg
Gallente
Guys of Sarcasm
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Posted - 2007.02.03 12:15:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Bazman
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad
forgot to mention.
Cloaking device is your best friend in 0.0
not sure or not BUT!
if you cloak and then log.. I am sure u stay cloaked till you disapear from local.
thats how it worked for my alt yesterday.
That doesn't work, if you were watching your alt with your main character, what you most likely seen was a delay between logging your alt off and seeing it warp off on your main character. It usually takes like 10 seconds when I see this myself. If you log off while cloaked, your cloak will deactivate and you will warp off, same as usual.
what about covops cloak, you can warp cloaked with that, just wondreing if it works
BTW: A GOOD Cache-Cleaner |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.03 12:20:00 -
[42]
As this is an exploit, and not a loss to DC or other external causes, not only the destroyed items shuld be returned, but what was recovered from the wreck should be taken from the aggressor hangar or ship and returned to the original owner.
More fun if that will strip him of a module in the middle of combat. 
Explointing should not be condoned.
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Eternal Fury
Shadow Of The Light
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.02.03 12:29:00 -
[43]
This has happened to several friends of mine over the past week as well.
They've been ratting. See that hostiles jump in, safe spot. Bounce from Safe Spot to Safe Spot over and over.. See that the 2 gates are camped, and log off.
Come back 30 min later to destroyed ship and a Podding. Find out it's becuase the hostiles shot the wrecks.
I've advised them of this post.
Eternal Fury
Shadow Of The Light
.SOL.
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Liu Kaskakka
PAK
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Posted - 2007.02.03 12:30:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Liu Kaskakka on 03/02/2007 12:28:30
Originally by: Naskaya
Hi,
One of my corpmates has lost a raven this morning in the same issue.
Was npcing, seeing hostiles in local, he warped out immediately, leaving behind him some wrecks, then go through some safe spots.
He never saw them in overview. He asks me if npc timer is relevant for being probed.
As I told him he got no pvp timer, he can logoff. (his ship is not fitted for pvp).
He do so, and one hour later, as he reconnects, he finds himself at the station, podkilled.
He has petitionned on this matters.
If shooting the wrecks can activate a pvp timer, i'll stop npcing until CCP correct this.
Edit: I was bashing the above poster but I dun wanna get banned.. :'(
King Liu is RIGHT!!
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The Slayer
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
Fatal Persuasion
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Posted - 2007.02.03 12:32:00 -
[45]
Edited by: The Slayer on 03/02/2007 12:31:02
Originally by: Liu Kaskakka
pussies
EDIT : HAH LOOK AT ME QUOTIN' YOU, ENJOY THE BAN FOO'
EDIT 2: You call him that but come up with no alternative suggestions as to what he or his corpmates should do. Fight a gank squad solo? Not everyone has a corp/alliance to back them up 24/7.
Yes eve has non-consentual pvp. But people should not be killed due to explits like this, if you catch someone feel free to kill them but cheating your way to a kill is far more dishonorable than logging off because there is a gank squad and you are pve fit.
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Luigi Thirty
Caldari
FIRMA
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Posted - 2007.02.03 12:45:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Luigi Thirty on 03/02/2007 12:48:52
Yeah! I'm gonna get my domi back anyway!
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DOMINIX IS INVINCIBLE:(((( |
Spix 'UK
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Posted - 2007.02.03 14:46:00 -
[47]
Originally by: MrLobster
I just reinstalled windows this very night after logging off from eve, now my eve client is telling me that i have an incorrect build (after downloading the client on the website 27912).
Is eve currently offline?? and is it because of this? the patchs page doesnt work either
Listen ya dam HiJacker.. FO
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My Pants
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Posted - 2007.02.03 14:50:00 -
[48]
Originally by: umah
Hmmm....
Would be interesting to know if this figured in the CYVOK Titan kill.
I don't think he was ratting at the time.
@ the op - this seems to be an exploit.
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Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.03 14:56:00 -
[49]
Bug has been around awhile now. Yes it works, but you have to be an idiot to log off in space. What you did was a logoffski in my mind and glad to see you podded.
They need to change it so you can only log off while in a station or player owned structure.
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
Beef Hardslab
The 5 Amigo's LLC.
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Posted - 2007.02.03 15:02:00 -
[50]
Yes, this is going on, and has been for a couple weeks at least. I am not sure how exactly to fix it, but I know one way to help prevent it - SHOW THE AGGRESSION TIMER IN 0.0 CCP. I honestly don't understand why being in 0.0 makes it so I cannot tell if I have an aggression timer. Hell you get an aggression timer in Empire for NPC rats - why?
When I first heard about this neat little trick, I borrowed a tactic from the dreaded macros - my ratting ship now has a cloak and a sensor booster. If someone comes in to gank, I SS and cloak. If they feel they must hang out, I round up my own gank squad. If a gank squad is not available, I'll go watch tv or hang out with my wife and kid. They can shoot wrecks all day if they like.  Well, at least until I get a good posse rounded up hehe.
Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve:
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
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Sally
Caldari
R.u.S.H.
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.03 16:04:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Sally on 03/02/2007 16:01:07
Shooting at wrecks to trigger agression timer is considered an exploit and CCP useally reimburse lost ships.
P.S. We BADLY need 0.0 agression timer and safe logoff button. How hard to introduce it already???
--
Stories: #1
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Fester Addams
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.03 16:17:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Jiekon
Please send a bug report and file an exploit petition. As far as i am aware this should not happen.
With this I think the issue is settled, if a member of the dev team feels it warants an exploit petition...
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EluThingol
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Posted - 2007.02.03 17:04:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Liu Kaskakka
pussies
Nice to know you support exploits
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nickky01
The Priory
Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2007.02.03 17:05:00 -
[54]
Originally by: umah
Hmmm....
Would be interesting to know if this figured in the CYVOK Titan kill.
Don't think it was considered as a possible mechanism for resetting his timer.
Originally by: hangnoose
Yes there is currently a bug...
Person A is ratting
Person B comes in
Person A warps off/logs w/e
Person B shoots person A's wreck
Person A now has agro timer.
i'm pretty sure he wasn't out ratting
-------------------------------------------
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
Oh and IAC's official response to ISS's offer is lollerskates.
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petergriffen
Amarr
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.03 17:09:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Sally
Edited by: Sally on 03/02/2007 16:01:07
Shooting at wrecks to trigger agression timer is considered an exploit and CCP useally reimburse lost ships.
P.S. We BADLY need 0.0 agression timer and safe logoff button. How hard to introduce it already???
Safe Logoff Button? There already is one in game. it's called 'docking'
The problem isn't that you can be scanned down after logging off with no aggression, the problem is that people log off in space to avoid being killed.
I'm working on it! |
Beef Hardslab
The 5 Amigo's LLC.
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Posted - 2007.02.03 17:10:00 -
[56]
Originally by: nickky01
i'm pretty sure he wasn't out ratting
I used to joke about getting a titan to rat in...
1. fly to the belts spawning all the rats
2. hop in titan and hit the DDD
3. ????????
4. profit!
Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve:
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.03 17:29:00 -
[57]
there was a thread about this weeks ago , people were saying there were using it to kill macro ratters, i cant believe ccp werent aware of the issue.
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My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
Malicia Skirj
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Posted - 2007.02.03 19:15:00 -
[58]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui
there was a thread about this weeks ago , people were saying there were using it to kill macro ratters, i cant believe ccp werent aware of the issue.
This IS the thread from weeks ago. It jumps from Jan 07 to Feb 03. If I recall, the OP had started another thread or two about it, also. I believe they are aware of it as devs and mods have commented in each asking for a petition to be filed.
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Par'Gellen
Low Grade Ore
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Posted - 2007.02.03 19:54:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Jiekon
Please send a bug report and file an exploit petition. As far as i am aware this should not happen.
Why would GM's move this from exploit to some other type of petition when Jiekon clearly tells us to file an exploit petition? Can the left hand please tell the right hand what's going on?
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CCP : Save my mousewheel! |
ScreamingLord Sutch
Hand in Mouth
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Posted - 2007.02.03 20:22:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Drake Mezcal
If they managed to probe you out and shoot you within 2minutes of loggin off, this gives u a 15minute aggro timer from the second you were shot.
Umm, rubbish
Pease refrain from commenting about matters on which you are clueless.
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jeNK
Caldari
STK Scientific
INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.03 20:47:00 -
[61]
In the event of this happening, and I file an exploit petition for reimbursement - would I get everything back, or just the usual "only stuff that wasn't looted" back?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.03 20:50:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 03/02/2007 20:49:57
Originally by: Rhaegar Targarin
Bug has been around awhile now. Yes it works, but you have to be an idiot to log off in space. What you did was a logoffski in my mind and glad to see you podded.
They need to change it so you can only log off while in a station or player owned structure.
So you think that in 0.0 one can only log of at a Outpost?
Seeing that if you log off at a POS your ship warp away for lands unknow.
Better getting a lesson in logic 101
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.02.03 20:55:00 -
[63]
Originally by: jeNK
In the event of this happening, and I file an exploit petition for reimbursement - would I get everything back, or just the usual "only stuff that wasn't looted" back?
AS it seem classed as an exploit, you should get all back.
If not, reply add to the petition, and add a ling to this thread, to the page with the dev suggestion to petition.
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Larkonis Trassler
Beyond Divinity Inc
Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.03 21:50:00 -
[64]
I've always been under the impression that if you log off with a 'yellow' agro timer, which you get from NPCs/shooting war targets/global flagged guys then youstay in space for 15 minutes regardless, not just pvp interaction.
------------
Crow Squad... An Audio and Visual Joygasm by Larkonis Trassler |
Luigi Thirty
Caldari
FIRMA
|
Posted - 2007.02.03 22:36:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Luigi Thirty on 03/02/2007 22:32:36
I just petitioned and was told there was no such bug and to please file it under reimbursement 
----
DOMINIX IS INVINCIBLE:(((( |
Caffeine Infused
|
Posted - 2007.02.03 23:04:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Allantia
Lost a ship + pod in exactly the same manner last night. 10 minutes between last NPC contact and loggoff, and my ship was destroyed 14 minutes after logoff (24 min after last combat/contact of any type).
Negative. Unfortunately, you didn't die from this bug. If you do not wait out the full 15 minutes (and some, wait 20mins to be sure), when you log off the timer is reset to 0, and your ship will remain in space for a further 15 minutes. This has been tested and confirmed by my alliance.
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Caffeine Infused
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Posted - 2007.02.03 23:16:00 -
[67]
Originally by: nickky01
i'm pretty sure he wasn't out ratting
It's not just NPC wrecks that supposedly cause this bug you know...
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
|
Posted - 2007.02.04 00:04:00 -
[68]
Yeah, you're right, I'd heard rumours of this happening, but never anything solid enough to actually petition or otherwise bug report. Bug report, and petition as 'possible exploit' and you'll get a solid answer.
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Luigi Thirty
Caldari
FIRMA
|
Posted - 2007.02.04 00:12:00 -
[69]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Yeah, you're right, I'd heard rumours of this happening, but never anything solid enough to actually petition or otherwise bug report. Bug report, and petition as 'possible exploit' and you'll get a solid answer.
I did and it was denied
----
DOMINIX IS INVINCIBLE:(((( |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.02.04 00:44:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Luigi Thirty
Originally by: James Lyrus
Yeah, you're right, I'd heard rumours of this happening, but never anything solid enough to actually petition or otherwise bug report. Bug report, and petition as 'possible exploit' and you'll get a solid answer.
I did and it was denied
Scale up the petition and add the Dev suggestion 2 pages back.
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Zubenelgenubi
Priory Of The Lemon
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.02.04 01:42:00 -
[71]
A corp mate of mine tested this on his own alt. And it happens. Whether it is supposed to or not i dunno...
I pop my wrecks.
Sig removed. Please keep sigs to 400x120 pixels and 24000 bytes in size or less. -Kaemonn ([email protected]) |
Luigi Thirty
Caldari
FIRMA
|
Posted - 2007.02.04 22:27:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Luigi Thirty
Originally by: James Lyrus
Yeah, you're right, I'd heard rumours of this happening, but never anything solid enough to actually petition or otherwise bug report. Bug report, and petition as 'possible exploit' and you'll get a solid answer.
I did and it was denied
Scale up the petition and add the Dev suggestion 2 pages back.
It was already at a Senior GM and I linked the thread, proof they don't read our petitions
----
DOMINIX IS INVINCIBLE:(((( |
Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
|
Posted - 2007.02.04 22:43:00 -
[73]
CCP really needs to fix this so people can get back to logging out as soon as somebody enters local.
I mean, how can it be fair for people to attack you when you're just trying to make some isk? If we can't log out, what else are we supposed to do?
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Rhaegar Targarin
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.02.04 22:49:00 -
[74]
Shooting someone's wreck that they left behind gives them an aggro timer. If you know someone is ratting, and they warp off when you warp in and leave behind wrecks, you can shoot those wrecks once every 13 minutes or so and keep resetting their aggro timer until you find them with probing.
Needs to be fixed.
Rhaegar Targarin - Minmatar Combat Pilot |
Goberth Ludwig
The Establishment
Establishment
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 00:03:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
CCP really needs to fix this so people can get back to logging out as soon as somebody enters local.
I mean, how can it be fair for people to attack you when you're just trying to make some isk? If we can't log out, what else are we supposed to do?
Signed. Think of the children.
- Gob
|
xeom
Veto.
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 00:22:00 -
[76]
Still is a exploit.
No matter how you spin it,Attacking something else in the universe should not cause another a agression timer.
---
"Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Galimiy Portret
R.u.S.H.
Red Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 00:44:00 -
[77]
I haven't read the thread.
If somebody shoots your wreck, you get the pvp timer. A known exploit.
...now in RED |
Maglorre
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 00:50:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Rhaegar Targarin
Bug has been around awhile now. Yes it works, but you have to be an idiot to log off in space. What you did was a logoffski in my mind and glad to see you podded.
They need to change it so you can only log off while in a station or player owned structure.
You don't have kids do you?
"It's OK Timmy, just stand there holding that vomit in your hands crying while I fly 10 jumps so I can dock at a station and log off"
|
Nanobotter Mk2
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 04:46:00 -
[79]
Sounds like intentional and knowingly exploiting, worthy of a ban. I can see it no other way, if they are shooting your wrecks to impose an aggro time on you.
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Par'Gellen
Low Grade Ore
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 05:06:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Luigi Thirty
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Luigi Thirty
Originally by: James Lyrus
Yeah, you're right, I'd heard rumours of this happening, but never anything solid enough to actually petition or otherwise bug report. Bug report, and petition as 'possible exploit' and you'll get a solid answer.
I did and it was denied
Scale up the petition and add the Dev suggestion 2 pages back.
It was already at a Senior GM and I linked the thread, proof they don't read our petitions
I'd suggest repeating the process until you get one that cares enough to actually read it.
---
CCP : Save my mousewheel! |
bacon isGood
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 07:52:00 -
[81]
Logging off in space is the ultimate exploit.
Originally by: Aaron
Originally by: Heather Maidla
Nice to know Rapid Motion support logoffski!
Come on heather lets be realistic here!! How on earth can I take on 6 ships fitted with a PVP setup, In my raven setup for NPC'ing. Just like in real life you would not fight a group of people if your on your own, u would try and walk away,
If I try to take on these guys i die, If i try and log off i am a coward, I cant win with you ganksters,
You sound like one of those players that would take on 1 pilot with about 50 ships. IMPOSSIBLE ODDS.
I think the programmers should look at this seriously, they should make sure that players know they are aggro'ed and if the odds are silly then the person should not be aggro'ed.
I happy that this looks like a possible expliot so it means i may be reimbursed.
YES, you were presented with overwhelming force. The outcome of that is you are supposed to killed. I don't expect this game to be super realistic but come on, ships shouldn't magically disappear.
To me this looks like one exploit that shouldn't happen, overcoming another exploit.
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Entreri Finwe
Caldari
Raptus Regaliter
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.02.05 10:59:00 -
[82]
Originally by: bacon isGood
Logging off in space is the ultimate exploit.
Originally by: Aaron
Originally by: Heather Maidla
Nice to know Rapid Motion support logoffski!
Come on heather lets be realistic here!! How on earth can I take on 6 ships fitted with a PVP setup, In my raven setup for NPC'ing. Just like in real life you would not fight a group of people if your on your own, u would try and walk away,
If I try to take on these guys i die, If i try and log off i am a coward, I cant win with you ganksters,
You sound like one of those players that would take on 1 pilot with about 50 ships. IMPOSSIBLE ODDS.
I think the programmers should look at this seriously, they should make sure that players know they are aggro'ed and if the odds are silly then the person should not be aggro'ed.
I happy that this looks like a possible expliot so it means i may be reimbursed.
YES, you were presented with overwhelming force. The outcome of that is you are supposed to killed. I don't expect this game to be super realistic but come on, ships shouldn't magically disappear.
To me this looks like one exploit that shouldn't happen, overcoming another exploit.
So your saying that he should automatically go boom as soon as a few pirates enter local?
---
|
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 11:34:00 -
[83]
Originally by: bacon isGood
Logging off in space is the ultimate exploit.
Originally by: Aaron
Originally by: Heather Maidla
Nice to know Rapid Motion support logoffski!
Come on heather lets be realistic here!! How on earth can I take on 6 ships fitted with a PVP setup, In my raven setup for NPC'ing. Just like in real life you would not fight a group of people if your on your own, u would try and walk away,
If I try to take on these guys i die, If i try and log off i am a coward, I cant win with you ganksters,
You sound like one of those players that would take on 1 pilot with about 50 ships. IMPOSSIBLE ODDS.
I think the programmers should look at this seriously, they should make sure that players know they are aggro'ed and if the odds are silly then the person should not be aggro'ed.
I happy that this looks like a possible expliot so it means i may be reimbursed.
YES, you were presented with overwhelming force. The outcome of that is you are supposed to killed. I don't expect this game to be super realistic but come on, ships shouldn't magically disappear.
To me this looks like one exploit that shouldn't happen, overcoming another exploit.
If this game was "realistic" in the sense you are suggesting I would have the option to say to my ship "After jumping to planet X, fly appling max accelerating speed away from it", and the sip would continue to do it even after my PC disconnect. And my defensive modules will continue to work.
So the hunter warping after me wold be way back, and with such a differential in velocity to make almost impossible doing something to me.
Whit a whole solar system to lose himself, in the real universe, if the target has a sufficent head start it should be impossible to find it.
As the EVE solar systems have a limited amount of space the log off can rapresent the use of the above mentioned tactic.
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Weebear
The Bowrey
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 11:52:00 -
[84]
Surely this isn't a bug? If they remove the agression timer from wrecks then anyone can sit in low sec and blow up your wrecks without fear of retribution bringing a whole new set of complaints!
Or are we saying that the wrecks should cause aggression unless the person wants to log out?!
Is the bug that the timer just doesn't show? |
OneSock
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 13:25:00 -
[85]
The bug is not the aggression timer the bug is in the logoffski logic. If a players ship is aggressed his ship should stay in space until the timer reaches zero. If however a can or wreck is aggressed his ship should not spay in space and should vanish in the usual time frame.
That said, IMO wrecks should not have an ownership flag.
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WredStorm
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 16:30:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Maglorre
Originally by: Rhaegar Targarin
Bug has been around awhile now. Yes it works, but you have to be an idiot to log off in space. What you did was a logoffski in my mind and glad to see you podded.
They need to change it so you can only log off while in a station or player owned structure.
You don't have kids do you?
"It's OK Timmy, just stand there holding that vomit in your hands crying while I fly 10 jumps so I can dock at a station and log off"
QFT
When my kids yell in the middle of night that they need me, the game comes second.
Wred
|
Par'Gellen
Low Grade Ore
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 22:28:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Par''Gellen on 05/02/2007 22:25:15
I've always found it very amusing how the bad guys use "realism" as an argument for AND against the way they act in game. It always makes me LOL!
When you get right down to it being a jerk is being a jerk in and out of "reality".
But do go on. It always gives me a good laugh.
---
CCP : Save my mousewheel! |
Jas Dor
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 23:18:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Weebear
Surely this isn't a bug? If they remove the agression timer from wrecks then anyone can sit in low sec and blow up your wrecks without fear of retribution bringing a whole new set of complaints!
Or are we saying that the wrecks should cause aggression unless the person wants to log out?!
Is the bug that the timer just doesn't show?
I do believe he was talking about having his wrecks blown up on him. Lets be clear shooting other people should = aggression timer. Having wreck shot WHILE YOU AREN'T THERE and getting NO WARNING THAT YOU ARE PVP FLAGGED = exploit. It always amazes me the lengths people will go to just to get a cheap killmail. Yeah we killed a podded a logged off frig and got . . . some cheap ratting loot and T1 fittings. Yeah.
Names, Dates, Times, Engagements, Losses, Op-Tempo or STFU! |
mechtech
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 23:20:00 -
[89]
This needs to be fixed.
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Milonia
Caldari
APEX Unlimited
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Posted - 2007.02.05 23:22:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Maglorre
Originally by: Rhaegar Targarin
Bug has been around awhile now. Yes it works, but you have to be an idiot to log off in space. What you did was a logoffski in my mind and glad to see you podded.
They need to change it so you can only log off while in a station or player owned structure.
You don't have kids do you?
"It's OK Timmy, just stand there holding that vomit in your hands crying while I fly 10 jumps so I can dock at a station and log off"
QFMFT!!
==============================
Milonia
Combat Pilot of the ACV Acadia (Moa)
I'm new so be nice!
"Talent is a gift... training opens the Box." |
Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar
Aeden
Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 23:40:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Caffeine Infused
Originally by: nickky01
i'm pretty sure he wasn't out ratting
It's not just NPC wrecks that supposedly cause this bug you know...
If he was pvping he had allready an aggro timer you know...
If the only targets he had before being poded were rats (say... at a gate for exemple) then that's another story. Shooting the wrecks to put a flag on Cyvok would be pure shame for Bob imho (this guys have the knowledge of 99.99% of the game mechanics).
-----
History is made by whinners |
Allantia
FW Inc
Kith of Venal
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 10:12:00 -
[92]
Has anyone successfully been reimbursedfor one of these yet? I got a reply saying that there was no way to confirm that I hadn't been in PvP or to verify where the agro came from, because that information isn't logged.
CCP, if that is in fact true, you need to take the Dev who designed the log system out and beat him. Severely.
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SteelFist
Amarr
Emperor's Fist
|
Posted - 2007.02.14 14:22:00 -
[93]
the main problem i have with this is that these ... people that kill you after you logg out, are actually able to grief you.
even if your ship is reimbursted, you lose most of your gear. To much gear is left in the can, being that your logged off you cant retrieve it especially since you dont know your dead.
although i do thank ccp for replacing my ship, i had 2 modules on it.
these ... bad people were able to cost me over 200 million in fittings, never aggroed never saw them nothing... sigh
logging off in 0.0 now seems to take making sure there is no one 3 jumps around you. which is a bit silly.
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Jan Riksma
Appetite 4 Destruction
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Posted - 2007.02.14 14:32:00 -
[94]
Yeah we noticed this too. We are currently at war at we normaly logoff in space so we won't be camped in the other day. Lately we have noticed that your ship won't disapear like normaly but stay in space well over 10 minutes without having agroed anything. We now are forced to logoff in station and being risked camped in station the next day we logon. Our enemies seems to know this bug cause as soon as somebody logsoff or crashes the enemies cloakers decloak and start spamming probes.
Really wierd!
my 2 cents,
Jan
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DarkElf
Caldari
Veto. Academy
|
Posted - 2007.02.14 14:57:00 -
[95]
yep that is exactly what happens. someone told me not long ago that this happened and i didn't believe them so tested it with a friend. shooting someone's wrecks before they disappear does give them a pvp timer.
btw to ppl saying the probed him out and shot him they should know that once someone has logged the pvp timer can not be activated. also u should only stay in space for 30 seconds if not aggro'd not 2 minutes so it's not possible to scan probe and kill someone really if they have no timer.
DE
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MicanG
Amarr
Dark Reality
|
Posted - 2007.02.14 15:13:00 -
[96]
Edited by: MicanG on 14/02/2007 15:09:54
Edited by: MicanG on 14/02/2007 15:09:37
Originally by: DarkElf
also u should only stay in space for 30 seconds if not aggro'd not 2 minutes so it's not possible to scan probe and kill someone really if they have no timer.
DE,
Thats the whole problem. That is what is happening now. Your ship won't disapear after 30 seconds when not agroed. We tested this, ships stay in space more then 10 min orso.
tada,
Mic
click the signature. |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
|
Posted - 2007.02.14 18:06:00 -
[97]
Originally by: SteelFist
the main problem i have with this is that these ... people that kill you after you logg out, are actually able to grief you.
even if your ship is reimbursted, you lose most of your gear. To much gear is left in the can, being that your logged off you cant retrieve it especially since you dont know your dead.
although i do thank ccp for replacing my ship, i had 2 modules on it.
these ... bad people were able to cost me over 200 million in fittings, never aggroed never saw them nothing... sigh
logging off in 0.0 now seems to take making sure there is no one 3 jumps around you. which is a bit silly.
You could destroy your own wrecks you know.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
C0VEN
|
Posted - 2007.02.14 19:33:00 -
[98]
we tried to test this just last night.
corp mate found a ratting raven, raven made it to a safe. he shot a wreck. min or 2 later, the raven logged. corp mate watched scanner, and the raven disappeared after 1 min as expected for non-aggroed logoff.
corp mate did NOT destroy the wreck, just shot at it once or twice.
wreck was from same corp as raven, but in theory, could have been from a corp mate of said raven that wasnt on anymore.
its possible the bug only happens when you shot the wreck after the ratter has already logged off, but has not dissappeared yet.
I will attempt to perform some in depth tests tonight.
if you must pop the wreck before the person logs to get it to work, fix is simply having aggression timer that effects your ship disappearing when you logoff should simply be visable in 0.0.
if it also works after you logoff, then its a bug that must be fixed.
Originally by: Snuggly
It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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ForceAttuned Krogoth
InterGalactic Corp.
Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.02.16 18:37:00 -
[99]
i think that D2 just lost their Titan to this bug, something needs to be done fast.
ForceAttuned Krogoth [INTG]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Starbuck 4tw!
Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected])
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ForceAttuned Krogoth
InterGalactic Corp.
Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.02.16 18:37:00 -
[100]
i think that D2 just lost their Titan to this bug, something needs to be done fast.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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ForceAttuned Krogoth
InterGalactic Corp.
Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.02.16 18:37:00 -
[101]
i think that D2 just lost their Titan to this bug, something needs to be done fast.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Katamarino
Blazing Angels
Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.16 19:05:00 -
[102]
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Katamarino
Blazing Angels
Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.16 19:05:00 -
[103]
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Itzena
Amarr
OtakuDyne Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.02.16 19:11:00 -
[104]
Yeah, it kind of negates the purpose of a Titan if your enemies can prevent it from logging off by shooting the wrecks it creates.
Just build dreads instead, and POS-zerg your enemies. Much safer.
--
I want my people to reclaim their rightful place in the galaxy... I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power...
I want us to be what we used to be. |
Ather Ialeas
Amarr
Viziam
|
Posted - 2007.02.16 19:34:00 -
[105]
Originally by: ForceAttuned Krogoth
i think that D2 just lost their Titan to this bug, something needs to be done fast.
Yeh, forum brigate is already fueling up their threadnaughts and news site cannons.
---
Currently between places, sorry for any inconveniances this may cause.
---
oh and sorry for the oversized sig pic...
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Paddlefoot Aeon
Neogen Industries
Serenity Fallen
|
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:15:00 -
[106]
Any news on this CCP??
What about now??
Hm...????
Now???????/
What about now?
-----------------------------------------------
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FireFoxx80
Caldari
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:42:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Ather Ialeas
Originally by: ForceAttuned Krogoth
i think that D2 just lost their Titan to this bug, something needs to be done fast.
Yeh, forum brigate is already fueling up their threadnaughts and news site cannons.
Irrespective. I'd be ****ed if I lost my Mission Raven to pirates in 0.4 due to this bug; just as I'd be ****ed if I lost my PvP Raven to another corp in 0.0 due to it.
It's been proven numerous times that this bug exists, and it's been publically shown a number of times now that this exploit exists (with a handy how-to guide).
The fact that it still exists in-game, even without an emerrgency warning from CCP, is just another thumbs-up to those who want to exploit the game.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Lydia Browm
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.02.16 20:54:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Lydia Browm on 16/02/2007 20:50:55
CBA to quote but whoever said Cyvok didn't rat, heused a DDD so the enemies could have easily just shot wrecks left behind from when he killed a couple of ships so in essence he didn't know had to go waited his "time" and then logged unknown he had extra 15 mins or whatever and got killed, CCP shoudl reimburse his titan now and all the mods and refix ASCN 
Edit : If that is the case.
___________________________________________
Cookies if you hijack or sign my sig. There tasty... |
RedClaws
Amarr
Dragon's Rage
Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2007.02.17 05:08:00 -
[109]
nope : i was there and he used his DDD shortly before logging : even if this thing was used than he would have still gotten his old agro timer
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Kamikaze Endgame
|
Posted - 2007.02.17 07:27:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Rhaegar Targarin
Bug has been around awhile now. Yes it works, but you have to be an idiot to log off in space. What you did was a logoffski in my mind and glad to see you podded.
They need to change it so you can only log off while in a station or player owned structure.
Yeah... because every 0.0 system has an npc station for you to dock in; and every single corp in existence has enough isk to plant a POS in every system that they rat in. Be serious please.
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Tab'Fren
TBC
Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.17 07:55:00 -
[111]
This is retarded. You shooting my wreck should give you an agression timer, not me.
And to the <person> who said you should only be able to log in stations/outposts... let me remind you that not all systems have them and we dont want yet another repeat of JV1V shenanigans. Forcing more players into a limited number of systems is bad, mm-kay?
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Morden Nok
Cohortes Vigilum
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.02.17 09:48:00 -
[112]
If you lose ship this way, just make an (exploit) petition. There are documented instances of low-level GM's stating "there's nothing in our logs about this", if you get this escalate. You can read whole story about one of these from scrapheapchallenge
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Allantia
FW Inc
Kith of Venal
|
Posted - 2007.02.18 10:26:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Morden Nok
If you lose ship this way, just make an (exploit) petition. There are documented instances of low-level GM's stating "there's nothing in our logs about this", if you get this escalate. You can read whole story about one of these from scrapheapchallenge
Link is broken. I would like to see it.
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