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Repaying the ISS debt

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Butter Dog Wreckless Abandon The UnAssociated	Posted - 2007.01.13 09:44:00 - [91] Originally by: Gustak Siskowet I have always found ISS management to be visionary, idealistic, principled, and civil. For the most part, they are. But we've already seen that they will lie publically when they feel its needed. Its up to you how much trust you place in an alliance leader who does that. ----------
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.13 10:00:00 - [92] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Gustak Siskowet I have always found ISS management to be visionary, idealistic, principled, and civil. For the most part, they are. But we've already seen that they will lie publically when they feel its needed. Its up to you how much trust you place in an alliance leader who does that. Butterdog, I know that's a sore point with you, and can appreciate why. Calling someone a liar though, for changing their opinion after they've had a chance to review the situation is a little strong. I still wish it hadn't come to where it did, but ... well your forum postings _were_ having an impact on the whole alliance.
maGz The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.01.13 10:03:00 - [93] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Gustak Siskowet I have always found ISS management to be visionary, idealistic, principled, and civil. For the most part, they are. But we've already seen that they will lie publically when they feel its needed. Its up to you how much trust you place in an alliance leader who does that. Butterdog, I know that's a sore point with you, and can appreciate why. Calling someone a liar though, for changing their opinion after they've had a chance to review the situation is a little strong. I still wish it hadn't come to where it did, but ... well your forum postings _were_ having an impact on the whole alliance. Count Tassessine lied, that's a fact. Don't dig the hole, you're already in, deeper. PS. And wtf @ OP - pay ISS for losing 4 stations? ____________
Asylum Seaker Minmatar RONA Corporation	Posted - 2007.01.13 10:15:00 - [94] The only interaction I've ever had with ISS was when I got stuck in their bubble and had to slowboat to the gate. I don't owe them squat. Memento Mori.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2007.01.13 11:11:00 - [95] Edited by: Nez Perces on 13/01/2007 11:16:15 I also feel a debt of gratitude towards ISS, they have provided much entertainment on the forums over the last month or so. Please accept my donation of 1,000,000 isk... and I won't take no for an answer, I insist. I guess I'll send it to Algey ...... Originally by: Nez Perces Originally by: Algey in the buttergate thread Blub Blub, help I'm sinking, nooooooo. Don't worry Admirals can swim just fine ..... for a pair of inflatable arm-bands [edit: typo, one zero too many ]
Effei Gloom Minmatar eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.13 16:47:00 - [96] i dont take it? ISS outposts will be all taken over? and IAC did the first step? i remember IAC to be never neutral or non pirate, so i am not surprised
sartorii Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.14 00:24:00 - [97] Originally by: elchief Despite what a lot of people think the majority of people dont hate iss on a personal level it is in fact the things done by a few leaders in the past.. QFT. if not for the **** poor response from ISS to IAC's concerns some of the more 'moderate' (aka slightly more sober and less trigger happy) members of IAC would have given ISS's POV more credit. However ISS leadership was entirely unresponsive and those of us (however slightly) inclined to argue for restraint toward ISS had no reason to object at all. ISS made their bed, now they must to lie in its remains. ISS started with noble ideals, however those ideals were quickly diluted by short sighted, arrogant leadership IAC has never claimed 'neutrality' toward any faction, only that "True Neutrals" would be unmolested and defended (as possible) in IAC space. Nor have we ever tolerated Piracy in IAC space.. shooting those Hostile to IAC is by no means Piracy. *To Bad Ignorance isnt Painful*
Rawne Karrde Constructive Influence	Posted - 2007.01.14 02:07:00 - [98] Don't mind Effei, he's still upset that IAC took JZV from his alliance (CCC). Hey effei how you doing? How's it feel to watch both CCC and ASCN go down?
patteSatan Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.14 07:40:00 - [99] Originally by: James Lyrus "Diplomatic Contacts - Bacilius & Kaylana Syi." Look, guys, I know you're the diplomatic contacts for IAC and everything, but is it utterly necessary to smack ISS at every opportunity possible? Yes, otherwise I will smack.
patteSatan Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.14 07:51:00 - [100] Originally by: Rawne Karrde Don't mind Effei, he's still upset that IAC took JZV from his alliance (CCC). Hey effei how you doing? How's it feel to watch both CCC and ASCN go down? Tnx Rawne, I think you just got 11 points out of ten possible.
celous Caldari Dark Skyes	Posted - 2007.01.14 09:28:00 - [101] Originally by: sartorii ISS started with noble ideals, however those ideals were quickly diluted by short sighted, arrogant leadership IAC has never claimed 'neutrality' towards Eve (ala ISS a grand idea not supported by Eve's current system) only that "True Neutrals" would be unmolested and defended (as possible) in IAC space. Nor have we ever tolerated Piracy in IAC space.. shooting those Hostile to IAC is by no means Piracy. so ur leadership so wounderful? please wake up to coffee. IAC are the same as AAA ....Pirates. U have Pirates in ur space all the time. Wait there even joined ur alliance so hey what ever m8
Pat Bello FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.14 10:40:00 - [102] so much for the self proclaimed anti-pirate alliance eh...
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.14 11:23:00 - [103] Originally by: sartorii Edited by: sartorii on 14/01/2007 00:29:36 Originally by: elchief Despite what a lot of people think the majority of people dont hate iss on a personal level it is in fact the things done by a few leaders in the past.. QFT. if not for the **** poor response from ISS to IAC's concerns some of the more 'moderate' (aka slightly more sober and less trigger happy) members of IAC would have given ISS's POV more credit. However ISS leadership was entirely unresponsive and those of us (however slightly) inclined to argue for restraint toward ISS had no reason to object at all. ISS made their bed, now they must to lie in its remains. Sartorii, the difficulty we have is primarily for one simple reason. The legitimate concerns of the moderate members of IAC, have been relayed through notably less moderate representatives. Now, say what you like about who did what to whom, but surely the first point, assuming one _actually_ wants to settle a dispute, is negotiation?
Metacannibal Gekidoku	Posted - 2007.01.14 11:33:00 - [104] if iac shared their iskprinting with their members and not their shareholders, there would actually be a sizeable amount of people helping. on the other hand, not printing isk for a few and giving out another sizeable chunk of isk to shareholders is the whole point of the thing, as announced by iss, it will never die because they can always continue doing t2 stuff in empire. i am sure that, if the random iss guy would understand the implications, iss would be left with about 5 people. /me waits for the days till someone with access to the iss savings makes a run, buys a new char and laughs his ass off
Butter Dog Wreckless Abandon The UnAssociated	Posted - 2007.01.14 14:10:00 - [105] Edited by: Butter Dog on 14/01/2007 14:08:44 Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: sartorii Edited by: sartorii on 14/01/2007 00:29:36 Originally by: elchief Despite what a lot of people think the majority of people dont hate iss on a personal level it is in fact the things done by a few leaders in the past.. QFT. if not for the **** poor response from ISS to IAC's concerns some of the more 'moderate' (aka slightly more sober and less trigger happy) members of IAC would have given ISS's POV more credit. However ISS leadership was entirely unresponsive and those of us (however slightly) inclined to argue for restraint toward ISS had no reason to object at all. ISS made their bed, now they must to lie in its remains. Sartorii, the difficulty we have is primarily for one simple reason. The legitimate concerns of the moderate members of IAC, have been relayed through notably less moderate representatives. Now, say what you like about who did what to whom, but surely the first point, assuming one _actually_ wants to settle a dispute, is negotiation? Well, its a fact that ISS leadership and particularly Count was gripped with bloodlust when we all rolled into F4 with 400 people. It was only the comparative weakness of your most of your Allies (talk about fair weather friends), which led to the failure of ISS managements wish to wipe IAC from the map from becoming a reality. But lets not beat around the bush here - ISS responded to a local threat with crazed bloodlust, when it should have been repositioning itself diplomatically. When your allies left at the sight of AAA, you put together a botched handover plan to make it look as if that was your intention all along. Not good enough. PS, I'm selling this BPO... go bid :) ----------
Hehulk Black Sea Industries	Posted - 2007.01.14 14:52:00 - [106] Edited by: Hehulk on 14/01/2007 14:50:41 Originally by: Butter Dog Well, its a fact that ISS leadership and particularly Count was gripped with bloodlust when we all rolled into F4 with 400 people. It was only the comparative weakness of your most of your Allies (talk about fair weather friends), which led to the failure of ISS managements wish to wipe IAC from the map from becoming a reality. But lets not beat around the bush here - ISS responded to a local threat with crazed bloodlust, when it should have been repositioning itself diplomatically. When your allies left at the sight of AAA, you put together a botched handover plan to make it look as if that was your intention all along. Not good enough. Serously, laying the blaim squarly at the feet of the ISS Alliance leadership for the current situation is just plain wrong. I'll grant, ISS was a bit blood crazed, especially when a load of alliances and mercs turned up and reduced F4R2 to rubble in a matter of days, but you yourself had a large part to play in faning the flames during that time. Now your smacking ISS for the hole you helped them dig? Fine, whatever. ---------- It's great being minmatar, ain't it
sartorii Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.14 20:29:00 - [107] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: sartorii Edited by: sartorii on 14/01/2007 00:29:36 Originally by: elchief Despite what a lot of people think the majority of people dont hate iss on a personal level it is in fact the things done by a few leaders in the past.. QFT. if not for the **** poor response from ISS to IAC's concerns some of the more 'moderate' (aka slightly more sober and less trigger happy) members of IAC would have given ISS's POV more credit. However ISS leadership was entirely unresponsive and those of us (however slightly) inclined to argue for restraint toward ISS had no reason to object at all. ISS made their bed, now they must to lie in its remains. Sartorii, the difficulty we have is primarily for one simple reason. The legitimate concerns of the moderate members of IAC, have been relayed through notably less moderate representatives. Now, say what you like about who did what to whom, but surely the first point, assuming one _actually_ wants to settle a dispute, is negotiation? The Time for Negotiation ended when ISS invaded and took F4. PRIOR to that, talks would have been entertained (ofc sleep being more important to some) but by taking F4, ISS incurred the wrath of all IAC Directors and Corporations. Count's 'offer' and subsequent public posting of internal negotiations (another illustraion of ISS lack of respect towards IAC) here for some small pseudo political gain, removed all traces of sympathy for ISS. (Stupid Emails sent to IAC CEOs about our Executive did not help the ISS cause either tbh) Those æforum warriorsÆ who believe any offer which included leaving ISS assets (POS) intact in IAC space was 'fair' or in anyway acceptable are fools, with no understanding of Sovereignty IAC fully supports itÆs Executive Council. ISSÆs blatant and continual disregard and disrespect for our Executive is and remains a slap in the face to IAC as a whole and prevents any feelings of sympathy or regret for how things æmight have been differentÆ. Perhaps in future incarnations ISS will recognize that ACTUAL DIPLOMACY instead of simple arrogant dismissal is a REQUIREMENT to attempt to maintain a 'neutral' stance (even as flawed as that attempt is in Eve's current environment). *To Bad Ignorance isnt Painful*
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.15 07:43:00 - [108] Originally by: sartorii Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: sartorii Edited by: sartorii on 14/01/2007 00:29:36 Originally by: elchief Despite what a lot of people think the majority of people dont hate iss on a personal level it is in fact the things done by a few leaders in the past.. QFT. if not for the **** poor response from ISS to IAC's concerns some of the more 'moderate' (aka slightly more sober and less trigger happy) members of IAC would have given ISS's POV more credit. However ISS leadership was entirely unresponsive and those of us (however slightly) inclined to argue for restraint toward ISS had no reason to object at all. ISS made their bed, now they must to lie in its remains. Sartorii, the difficulty we have is primarily for one simple reason. The legitimate concerns of the moderate members of IAC, have been relayed through notably less moderate representatives. Now, say what you like about who did what to whom, but surely the first point, assuming one _actually_ wants to settle a dispute, is negotiation? The Time for Negotiation ended when ISS invaded and took F4. PRIOR to that, talks would have been entertained (ofc sleep being more important to some) but by taking F4, ISS incurred the wrath of all IAC Directors and Corporations. Count's 'offer' and subsequent public posting of internal negotiations (another illustraion of ISS lack of respect towards IAC) here for some small pseudo political gain, removed all traces of sympathy for ISS. (Stupid Emails sent to IAC CEOs about our Executive did not help the ISS cause either tbh) Those æforum warriorsÆ who believe any offer which included leaving ISS assets (POS) intact in IAC space was 'fair' or in anyway acceptable are fools, with no understanding of Sovereignty IAC fully supports itÆs Executive Council. ISSÆs blatant and continual disregard and disrespect for our Executive is and remains a slap in the face to IAC as a whole and prevents any feelings of sympathy or regret for how things æmight have been differentÆ. Perhaps in future incarnations ISS will recognize that ACTUAL DIPLOMACY instead of simple arrogant dismissal is a REQUIREMENT to attempt to maintain a 'neutral' stance (even as flawed as that attempt is in Eve's current environment). I'm not going to throw stones at anyone for wanting to sleep at clear of midnight on a workday. Especially when someone's trying to have serious discussions with 'em. But that aside I was actually referring to prior to that, and over the previous ... well few months. That offer may have been unacceptable to you, but please be remembering that it did leave you with control of F4R2-Q, and it wasn't ISS that started the fighting. In a worst case, what would the problem be? You'd have to do exactly the same, only a bit later. That outpost got conquered because having hundreds of hostiles, who's intentions were handwaved at maybe they'll take adjacent stations, one jump away was a real problem. You may hold issue with that, but I still think that a sound strategic choice. However, I feel we're getting offtopic here, this subject's already been overdone.
Uuve Savisaalo Umbra Congregatio	Posted - 2007.01.15 09:27:00 - [109] Originally by: Xrak Great post. Far too many people have just jumped on the "Down with ISS" bandwagon, without even actually thinking about it. but you must also remember that ISS is by far not the apolitical, 'bring people into 0.0' force it enjoys portraying itself as. For one thing, it is not very feasable to maintain true neutrality out there, if only because one set of big guns has to be counterbalanced by another. ISS found such guns not in the hired graces of MC, but in active patronage of BOB/FIX/LV and the entire southwestern mantrain. Given BNC's investments into ISS projects as well as certain MC members whose alts took a very directly-involved roles in ISS management, the whole thing ends up looking like you're speaking up favourably for a group often viewed as one of your more discrete vassals.
schurem Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.15 12:41:00 - [110] Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo Originally by: Xrak Great post. Far too many people have just jumped on the "Down with ISS" bandwagon, without even actually thinking about it. but you must also remember that ISS is by far not the apolitical, 'bring people into 0.0' force it enjoys portraying itself as. For one thing, it is not very feasable to maintain true neutrality out there, if only because one set of big guns has to be counterbalanced by another. ISS found such guns not in the hired graces of MC, but in active patronage of BOB/FIX/LV and the entire southwestern mantrain. Given BNC's investments into ISS projects as well as certain MC members whose alts took a very directly-involved roles in ISS management, the whole thing ends up looking like you're speaking up favourably for a group often viewed as one of your more discrete vassals. if this were true, why aren't there six titans smiting the living daylights out of the IAC goons fouling up marginis and tycho? tinfoilhattery i say. but we'll adapt. However, I still think EvE needs more and better tactical warning sounds. <<<< No Boundaries, No Fences, Fly Free* Or Die Trying* >>>>
Don Elmus	Posted - 2007.01.16 11:23:00 - [111] Hehe - you got ousted and that is it - IAC now is doing what you originally claimed to do - inviting all players - IAC however try to help players against pirates
Don Elmus	Posted - 2007.01.16 11:30:00 - [112] And that is not out of some benign philosophy - it simply makes playing more funny
Reiisha Satal's Legion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.16 11:45:00 - [113] Originally by: Layla DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions given in this post are entirely personal and should not be construed as reflecting those of my corporation, alliance or associates. The Eve Universe as a whole owes ISS an immense debt for showing that investment by individual players can be used to bring something large and worthwhile into being. The ideals of ISS remain honorable and true to this day. The detractors of ISS may decry the detail of how ISS achieves their aim of opening up 0.0 to the Eve population, but I know that ISS has achieved its aims and paid billions in premiums to its share-holders in the process. I see ISS as one of the few positive, progressive and exciting concepts within the Eve Universe. I would hate to see that destroyed. I would like to pay something back to ISS in this, their hour of need. I shall be donating 500 million isk to an ISS Management character to help them in their current conflict. I would like to invite other members of the Eve community to do the same. This is not an "official" ISS post, nor has it even been cleared by their management. I am not associated with ISS. I have some shares, but I am not trying to revive their worth. I am trying in the only way I can to support an organisation which has far more positive aspects in Eve than its current detractors give it credit for. I hope other players will join me in supporting ISS so that it can continue to be a positive force within Eve. ISS needs to sort out their internal workings and diplomatic ability before really "earning" something rom the community, and they know it themselves. You can't make a completely neutral and safe alliance with people you don't know... Any recruitment process will fail to show you, at least when it comes to corps. The smallest incident is enough to throw them into dissarray, you only need 1 black sheep among 1500 members to screw the alliance over royally. EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
Reiisha Satal's Legion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.16 11:45:00 - [114] Originally by: Layla DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions given in this post are entirely personal and should not be construed as reflecting those of my corporation, alliance or associates. The Eve Universe as a whole owes ISS an immense debt for showing that investment by individual players can be used to bring something large and worthwhile into being. The ideals of ISS remain honorable and true to this day. The detractors of ISS may decry the detail of how ISS achieves their aim of opening up 0.0 to the Eve population, but I know that ISS has achieved its aims and paid billions in premiums to its share-holders in the process. I see ISS as one of the few positive, progressive and exciting concepts within the Eve Universe. I would hate to see that destroyed. I would like to pay something back to ISS in this, their hour of need. I shall be donating 500 million isk to an ISS Management character to help them in their current conflict. I would like to invite other members of the Eve community to do the same. This is not an "official" ISS post, nor has it even been cleared by their management. I am not associated with ISS. I have some shares, but I am not trying to revive their worth. I am trying in the only way I can to support an organisation which has far more positive aspects in Eve than its current detractors give it credit for. I hope other players will join me in supporting ISS so that it can continue to be a positive force within Eve. ISS needs to sort out their internal workings and diplomatic ability before really "earning" something rom the community, and they know it themselves. You can't make a completely neutral and safe alliance with people you don't know... Any recruitment process will fail to show you, at least when it comes to corps. The smallest incident is enough to throw them into dissarray, you only need 1 black sheep among 1500 members to screw the alliance over royally. EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
Leonardo Sabrioski Caldari Shadow Eden Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.17 00:01:00 - [115] ISS makes a profit everytime u dock... if u want to help them... just dock and redock aproximately 500 million times.... ---------------------------------------------- <insert threatening remark here>
DHB FooFighter FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.17 00:02:00 - [116] Originally by: Leonardo Sabrioski ISS makes a profit everytime u dock... if u want to help them... just dock and redock aproximately 500 million times.... Need to find an ISS station first. -------------------------------------------- {2007.01.07 15:49:20 Notify Pretax Metron has initiated self-destruct of their Chimera}
Algey ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.17 10:20:00 - [117] Originally by: DHB FooFighter Originally by: Leonardo Sabrioski ISS makes a profit everytime u dock... if u want to help them... just dock and redock aproximately 500 million times.... Need to find an ISS station first. That'd be hard, ISS don't own stations. There are two more public stations, owned by general members of the Eve community left though.
Dekiri Exanimo Inc	Posted - 2007.01.17 10:57:00 - [118] Edited by: Dekiri on 17/01/2007 10:55:49 Originally by: Algey Originally by: DHB FooFighter Originally by: Leonardo Sabrioski ISS makes a profit everytime u dock... if u want to help them... just dock and redock aproximately 500 million times.... Need to find an ISS station first. That'd be hard, ISS don't own stations. There are two more public stations, owned by general members of the Eve community left though. I am aware of ISS business models, but how come the stations are not called "shareholder marginis" or "Eve-public borealis", but in fact ISS-Marginis and ISS-Cassini and ISS-Consido and so on... Sounds to me as if they are somehow ISS Stations..... Maybe in the future it might make sense to call them what they are.... And don't play the "we are only managing the outposts" card, because then i would love to ask you why LV-Calico in teneriffis is not called ISS-Calico ?=) Do you respect the shareholders so much less then LV ?=) On the other hand it is doubtful if the ISS corps would care much about the outposts and help defend them if they where not called "ISS-Sonandso", because that makes them feel closer to themselves. --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. Or contact cptblood or kakanur
Itaro Flagg The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.01.17 19:48:00 - [119] Edited by: Itaro Flagg on 17/01/2007 19:46:27 Originally by: Algey Originally by: DHB FooFighter Originally by: Leonardo Sabrioski ISS makes a profit everytime u dock... if u want to help them... just dock and redock aproximately 500 million times.... Need to find an ISS station first. That'd be hard, ISS don't own stations. There are two more public stations, owned by general members of the Eve community left though. Aww, you don't know ISS nearly as well as you think. ISS actually has 2 privately owned outposts (I think its Consido and Fabrica that are privately held, someone correct me if I'm wrong). But ya, ISS does have privately owned stations. http://eve-iss.com/ISSO/2.asp Quote: In the 17 months since ISS was conceived we have constructed 6 public and 2 private outposts Hah!
sartorii Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.17 21:16:00 - [120] Originally by: Algey Originally by: DHB FooFighter Need to find an ISS station first. That'd be hard, ISS don't own stations. well not for much longer at least Quote: There are two more public stations, owned by general members of the Eve community left though. You can claim ISS never owned them, but denying that they were TAKEN from ISS is just silly. Game Mechanics, trumps silly forum claims everytime. *To Bad Ignorance isnt Painful*

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