Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr

---

You thundering retard.

---

Originally by: Mandrake Knight

---

dude I owe ISS jack sh!t. If they think I do, they can come collect it at any time, any place.

---

Originally by: Layla

---

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions given in this post are entirely personal and should not be construed as reflecting those of my corporation, alliance or associates.

The Eve Universe as a whole owes ISS an immense debt for showing that investment by individual players can be used to bring something large and worthwhile into being. The ideals of ISS remain honorable and true to this day. The detractors of ISS may decry the detail of how ISS achieves their aim of opening up 0.0 to the Eve population, but I know that ISS has achieved its aims and paid billions in premiums to its share-holders in the process.

I see ISS as one of the few positive, progressive and exciting concepts within the Eve Universe. I would hate to see that destroyed.

I would like to pay something back to ISS in this, their hour of need. I shall be donating 500 million isk to an ISS Management character to help them in their current conflict.

I would like to invite other members of the Eve community to do the same.

This is not an "official" ISS post, nor has it even been cleared by their management. I am not associated with ISS. I have some shares, but I am not trying to revive their worth. I am trying in the only way I can to support an organisation which has far more positive aspects in Eve than its current detractors give it credit for.

I hope other players will join me in supporting ISS so that it can continue to be a positive force within Eve.

---

Originally by: Crozon

---

Read the OP again, no one is saying you owe them anything. I'm starting to think Veldspar head injuries are becoming more common place.

---

Originally by: Original Poster

---

The Eve Universe as a whole owes ISS an immense debt blah blah

---

Originally by: Omeega

---

ISS recieved what they deserved, a place in empire.

---

Originally by: Mandrake Knight

---

Edited by: Mandrake Knight on 11/01/2007 12:33:52
hahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaahha


dude I owe ISS jack sh!t. If they think I do, they can come collect it at any time, any place.

They owe me for all the backstabbing, intel gathering, and lying they do (did).

---

Originally by: Galldar

---

Thats funny you ASSume that Layla is a dude when in fact your wrong....yes we have chics in our corp.

---

Originally by: Dekiri

---

If you want to do ISS good then i suggest investing in their new IPO wich sounds very promising to me.
Just sending 500 mil to count doesn't really achieve a lot, but offering investment capital will.

---

Originally by: elchief

---

We were once close friends and i personally like a lot of the iss around here ot was the odd strange one that bugged me.

---

Originally by: Nekumi

---

Originally by: Layla

---

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions given in this post are entirely personal and should not be construed as reflecting those of my corporation, alliance or associates.

The Eve Universe as a whole owes ISS an immense debt for showing that investment by individual players can be used to bring something large and worthwhile into being. The ideals of ISS remain honorable and true to this day. The detractors of ISS may decry the detail of how ISS achieves their aim of opening up 0.0 to the Eve population, but I know that ISS has achieved its aims and paid billions in premiums to its share-holders in the process.

I see ISS as one of the few positive, progressive and exciting concepts within the Eve Universe. I would hate to see that destroyed.

I would like to pay something back to ISS in this, their hour of need. I shall be donating 500 million isk to an ISS Management character to help them in their current conflict.

I would like to invite other members of the Eve community to do the same.

This is not an "official" ISS post, nor has it even been cleared by their management. I am not associated with ISS. I have some shares, but I am not trying to revive their worth. I am trying in the only way I can to support an organisation which has far more positive aspects in Eve than its current detractors give it credit for.

I hope other players will join me in supporting ISS so that it can continue to be a positive force within Eve.

---

I think it's been established that throwing money at a problem won't solve it. What a waste of half a billion isk.

---

Originally by: elchief

---

To be perfectly honest i do feel sorry for iss at the moment. We were once close friends and i personally like a lot of the iss around here ot was the odd strange one that bugged me.
However i do believe it what iss initially set out to acomplish and i do not believe there dreams are dead as of yet. They still control a couple of stations and im sure they can rebuild..
Dont pity them im sure they dont want it, Give them time to regroup im sure this sint the end of iss i for one look forward to hearing/seeing/fighting them in the future

---

Originally by: Mattduk

---

Rumor has it they contracted Contraband Inc. against our Alliance back in early 2006, but until it can be proven I have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Originally by: Mattduk

---

Rumor has it they contracted Contraband Inc. against our Alliance back in early 2006, but until it can be proven I have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

---

Well, for what it's worth, I'd like to make the assertion that ISS didn't do that. Now, given my position, that's a biased post, but ... well more rationally, what would have been the point? Contrary to popular belief, ISS isn't a rich alliance, and never has been. We've never been rich enough to hire mercs on a whim, and it's only under serious threat that we've done so.

And many thanks to the OP, for your support. (Moral or otherwise).
I'd like to re-assure everyone that the situation with the Marginis project isn't just plain sunk.
There will be a shareholder meeting about ... well recent events. If you have shares in ... I think it's any of the outposts, but certainly Cassini, Marginis or Borealis, you should have an EVEmail about it.

It may sound stupid, when 'hahaha, screw you all' is an option, but the ISS takes the trust the investors placed in us very seriously indeed. That's not just empty words. We've worked very hard for the last 20 months (yes, it has been that long since Marginis was built) to build a reputation for honest dealing with our shareholders. All along, there's been plenty of opportunities to 'take the money and run', but ... well to be perfectly honest, that's just not why we're playing EVE.

Speaking just for myself, I _want_ to build stuff. I want to make cool and interesting things happen. I think ISS can claim credit for the public outpost, and serving as the 'starting point' for a stockmarket. Seeing EGSE and it's brokers trading ISS funds is just so unbelievably cool, that I have to rub my eyes each time I look at it. It's a far cry from where we started, but ... well it's _long_ way from over yet.

I won't deny that the assault on our outpost projects is something I'm not overly happy about. I've personally put a lot of effort into the construction and development of those. But for all those declaring "The End of ISS" and that we should be ripping off our investors, and heading back to empire?

Not a chance. We're not dead yet.

The ISS is, and has always been different from a normal alliance. We're only an 'Alliance' because that's the best way that EVE represents what we're wanting to do. The ISS is not a sum of ISK. It's not an Outpost. It's not even the sum of all it's outposts, and it's 0.0 access. It's the people in it, and the vision they believe in.

Look at Pure Blind and Catch now. When ISS first set up it's service stations, they were pretty much miserable wastelands. Bits were worth it, but large chunks were only populated by the very occasional NPCer. Now look today. That's all changed. I still hold out hope for the future of the projects there, although accept that that's going to take the co-operation of people who have expressed a certain amount of hostility towards ISS. But regardless of what the future holds, they've been a total success. They've served to transform a bit of barren empty 0.0 into a real place to live.

It's very easy, when faced with large numbers of hostiles, to lose sight of the vision. To get bogged down in the 'omg they swarmed us'. I've done it a few times over the last few weeks, and have had a few thoughts of going and trying to learn how to pirate, and work out the grudges. But then I remember, when there's those who post stuff about how they like something, anything that ISS has done for EVE, and remember why we started. Where the idea came from, and all we _have_ done since ISS was formed.

That's an idea, and ideas cannot die.

---

Originally by: Pwny McPwnerson

---

I would not put a bounty on a washing machine, for instance.

---

Originally by: Chribba

---

Buy me.

---

Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn

---

Originally by: Chribba

---

Buy me.

---

You are too expensive even for Bob :)

---

Originally by: R3dSh1ft

---

It would be nice to believe this were true, but infact ISS outposts were a breeding ground for piracy, hostile invations and market corruption of 0.0 for the length of their stay in catch.

---

Originally by: 0August0

---

Sort of puts paid to CCPs vision of getting more empire dwellers into lowsec.

---

Originally by: R3dSh1ft

---

It would be nice to believe this were true, but infact ISS outposts were a breeding ground for piracy, hostile invations and market corruption of 0.0 for the length of their stay in catch.

---

Originally by: Eris Discordia

---

We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.

---

Originally by: Cmdr Sy

---

Originally by: 0August0

---

Sort of puts paid to CCPs vision of getting more empire dwellers into lowsec.

---

What does ISS offer to Empire dwellers that a whole bunch of other alliances don't? Positive standings? Safe passage? Docking rights? Permission to anchor POS? Farming local NPCs? It's a standard package that can be obtained in a lot of places. No-one in Empire is losing an opportunity.

---

Originally by: Kalmanaka

---

Being neutral means you do business with whoever walks up and wants to.

---

Originally by: Omeega

---

Originally by: Kalmanaka

---

Being neutral means you do business with whoever walks up and wants to.

---

Wrong in my point of view.

As soon as you do business with someone you're chosing his side.

You can't just sell weapons to A and B and pretend that you are neutral.

You need to chose one side, always.

---

Originally by: Admiral Feelgood

---

Edited by: Admiral Feelgood on 11/01/2007 22:04:36
Edited by: Admiral Feelgood on 11/01/2007 22:04:10

Originally by: Omeega

---

Originally by: Kalmanaka

---

Being neutral means you do business with whoever walks up and wants to.

---

Wrong in my point of view.

As soon as you do business with someone you're chosing his side.

You can't just sell weapons to A and B and pretend that you are neutral.

---

Well that's not really what neutral means. You'd have to not deal with anyone or even let people in your territory. Neutrality isn't practical for large organizations.

edit: ISS's revision of their policy to be a-political instead of neutral was a very good move on their part and one that should have come a lot earlier.
You need to chose one side, always.

---

Originally by: Kylania

---

Empire dwellers will see that ISS, apparently a industrial concept where being neutral and accepting of others is what made 0.0 "safer", was destroyed by a group of other players for apparently no other reason than "we can". They'll realize that even if they were to come to 0.0 and build up something great everyone could share in, some bigger bully will just move in and destroy it all because "they can".

As long as 0.0 is mostly "everyone but us dies" Empire dwellers won't go there. It's not fun to lose your ship because some gangbanger decides you weren't blue. A lot of players don't want constant war and conflict, and right now that's all 0.0 offers unless you're not already in the big boy alliances. Nothing CCP has planned seems aimed at changing that, just making things more dangerous and costly in 0.0.

---

Originally by: Kylania

---

Originally by: Cmdr Sy

---

Originally by: 0August0

---

Sort of puts paid to CCPs vision of getting more empire dwellers into lowsec.

---

What does ISS offer to Empire dwellers that a whole bunch of other alliances don't? Positive standings? Safe passage? Docking rights? Permission to anchor POS? Farming local NPCs? It's a standard package that can be obtained in a lot of places. No-one in Empire is losing an opportunity.

---

Empire dwellers will see that ISS, apparently a industrial concept where being neutral and accepting of others is what made 0.0 "safer", was destroyed by a group of other players for apparently no other reason than "we can". They'll realize that even if they were to come to 0.0 and build up something great everyone could share in, some bigger bully will just move in and destroy it all because "they can".

As long as 0.0 is mostly "everyone but us dies" Empire dwellers won't go there. It's not fun to lose your ship because some gangbanger decides you weren't blue. A lot of players don't want constant war and conflict, and right now that's all 0.0 offers unless you're not already in the big boy alliances. Nothing CCP has planned seems aimed at changing that, just making things more dangerous and costly in 0.0.

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Originally by: Mattduk

---

Rumor has it they contracted Contraband Inc. against our Alliance back in early 2006, but until it can be proven I have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

---

The ISS is, and has always been different from a normal alliance. We're only an 'Alliance' because that's the best way that EVE represents what we're wanting to do. The ISS is not a sum of ISK. It's not an Outpost. It's not even the sum of all it's outposts, and it's 0.0 access. It's the people in it, and the vision they believe in.

Look at Pure Blind and Catch now. When ISS first set up it's service stations, they were pretty much miserable wastelands. Bits were worth it, but large chunks were only populated by the very occasional NPCer. Now look today. That's all changed. I still hold out hope for the future of the projects there, although accept that that's going to take the co-operation of people who have expressed a certain amount of hostility towards ISS. But regardless of what the future holds, they've been a total success. They've served to transform a bit of barren empty 0.0 into a real place to live.

It's very easy, when faced with large numbers of hostiles, to lose sight of the vision. To get bogged down in the 'omg they swarmed us'. I've done it a few times over the last few weeks, and have had a few thoughts of going and trying to learn how to pirate, and work out the grudges. But then I remember, when there's those who post stuff about how they like something, anything that ISS has done for EVE, and remember why we started. Where the idea came from, and all we _have_ done since ISS was formed.

That's an idea, and ideas cannot die.

---

Originally by: Mandrake Knight

---

I am a part of the eve universe entity so how does that not include me and everyone else?

---

Originally by: Abn Matar

---

Im saying this because many people seem to forget that IAC also supports neutrals in our space and will keep on doing that.

---

Originally by: DriveCrash

---

Originally by: Abn Matar

---

Im saying this because many people seem to forget that IAC also supports neutrals in our space and will keep on doing that.

---

I'm sorry but I have to LOL at this, after all the flack ISS has gotten for being "neutral". How long until LV or whoever thinks thier enemys are useing your stations as stageing ground for invasions? lol. the irony is overwhelming.

---

Originally by: DriveCrash

---

Originally by: Abn Matar

---

Im saying this because many people seem to forget that IAC also supports neutrals in our space and will keep on doing that.

---

I'm sorry but I have to LOL at this, after all the flack ISS has gotten for being "neutral". How long until LV or whoever thinks thier enemys are useing your stations as stageing ground for invasions? lol. the irony is overwhelming.

---

Quote:

---

its good to see that there are still people on these forums that dont follow the "i smack at everything i can find" trend! i hope iac wont throw u out now :P

---

Originally by: Sienis

---

its good to see that there are still people on these forums that dont follow the "i smack at everything i can find" trend! i hope iac wont throw u out now :P

---

Originally by: elchief

---

...Infact even while we fight with iss we quite often can have a good local banter with them...

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

"Diplomatic Contacts - Bacilius & Kaylana Syi."

Look, guys, I know you're the diplomatic contacts for IAC and everything, but is it utterly necessary to smack ISS at every opportunity possible?

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

"Diplomatic Contacts - Bacilius & Kaylana Syi."

Look, guys, I know you're the diplomatic contacts for IAC and everything, but is it utterly necessary to smack ISS at every opportunity possible?

---

Yes

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

"Diplomatic Contacts - Bacilius & Kaylana Syi."

Look, guys, I know you're the diplomatic contacts for IAC and everything, but is it utterly necessary to smack ISS at every opportunity possible?

---

Yes

---

OK then. 's long as that's understood. Personally, I find it difficult to have diplomatic discussions under such circumstances, but hey, as long as it's for positive reasons, then that's fair enough.

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

"Diplomatic Contacts - Bacilius & Kaylana Syi."

Look, guys, I know you're the diplomatic contacts for IAC and everything, but is it utterly necessary to smack ISS at every opportunity possible?

---

Yes

---

OK then. 's long as that's understood. Personally, I find it difficult to have diplomatic discussions under such circumstances, but hey, as long as it's for positive reasons, then that's fair enough.

---

I believe it was when Count snubbed Kay by saying he would rather go to bed then discuss diplomacy that we gave up trying to talk to you.

---

Originally by: Butter Dog

---

I believe ISS lost the right to expect diplomatic pleasantries when they tried (and failed) to wipe IAC from the map and claim all three of their stations for themselves.

Call me a crazy old fool but that just might have something to do with IAC's attitude.

---

Originally by: DriveCrash

---

Originally by: Abn Matar

---

Im saying this because many people seem to forget that IAC also supports neutrals in our space and will keep on doing that.

---

I'm sorry but I have to LOL at this, after all the flack ISS has gotten for being "neutral". How long until LV or whoever thinks thier enemys are useing your stations as stageing ground for invasions? lol. the irony is overwhelming.

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Yes, I noticed. Still, wars have been fought over lesser things I guess.

---

Originally by: celous

---

IAC shut up
SOD STFU

why? talking crap! IAC sucks and works with Pirates and u wounder ISS wasnt so friendly? IAC and AAA will come to an end soon.

---

Originally by: celous

---

IAC shut up
SOD STFU

why? talking crap! IAC sucks and works with Pirates and u wounder ISS wasnt so friendly? IAC and AAA will come to an end soon.

---

Originally by: Murukan

---

TBH i don't know why ISS lets the graduates stay in their alliance. You fools smack on the boards as badly as you do in local.

---

Originally by: celous

---

IAC shut up
SOD STFU

why? talking crap! IAC sucks and works with Pirates and u wounder ISS wasnt so friendly? IAC and AAA will come to an end soon.

---

Originally by: Gustak Siskowet

---

I have always found ISS management to be visionary, idealistic, principled, and civil.

---

Originally by: Butter Dog

---

Originally by: Gustak Siskowet

---

I have always found ISS management to be visionary, idealistic, principled, and civil.

---

For the most part, they are.

But we've already seen that they will lie publically when they feel its needed. Its up to you how much trust you place in an alliance leader who does that.

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Originally by: Butter Dog

---

Originally by: Gustak Siskowet

---

I have always found ISS management to be visionary, idealistic, principled, and civil.

---

For the most part, they are.

But we've already seen that they will lie publically when they feel its needed. Its up to you how much trust you place in an alliance leader who does that.

---

Butterdog, I know that's a sore point with you, and can appreciate why. Calling someone a liar though, for changing their opinion after they've had a chance to review the situation is a little strong. I still wish it hadn't come to where it did, but ... well your forum postings _were_ having an impact on the whole alliance.

---

Originally by: Nez Perces

---

Originally by: Algey in the buttergate thread

---

Blub Blub, help I'm sinking, nooooooo.

---

Don't worry Admirals can swim just fine

---

Originally by: elchief

---

Despite what a lot of people think the majority of people dont hate iss on a personal level it is in fact the things done by a few leaders in the past..

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

"Diplomatic Contacts - Bacilius & Kaylana Syi."

Look, guys, I know you're the diplomatic contacts for IAC and everything, but is it utterly necessary to smack ISS at every opportunity possible?

---

Originally by: Rawne Karrde

---

Don't mind Effei, he's still upset that IAC took JZV from his alliance (CCC). Hey effei how you doing? How's it feel to watch both CCC and ASCN go down?

---

Originally by: sartorii

---

ISS started with noble ideals, however those ideals were quickly diluted by short sighted, arrogant leadership

IAC has never claimed 'neutrality' towards Eve (ala ISS a grand idea not supported by Eve's current system) only that "True Neutrals" would be unmolested and defended (as possible) in IAC space. Nor have we ever tolerated Piracy in IAC space.. shooting those Hostile to IAC is by no means Piracy.

---

Originally by: sartorii

---

Edited by: sartorii on 14/01/2007 00:29:36

Originally by: elchief

---

Despite what a lot of people think the majority of people dont hate iss on a personal level it is in fact the things done by a few leaders in the past..

---

QFT.

if not for the **** poor response from ISS to IAC's concerns some of the more 'moderate' (aka slightly more sober and less trigger happy) members of IAC would have given ISS's POV more credit. However ISS leadership was entirely unresponsive and those of us (however slightly) inclined to argue for restraint toward ISS had no reason to object at all. ISS made their bed, now they must to lie in its remains.

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Originally by: sartorii

---

Edited by: sartorii on 14/01/2007 00:29:36

Originally by: elchief

---

Despite what a lot of people think the majority of people dont hate iss on a personal level it is in fact the things done by a few leaders in the past..

---

QFT.

if not for the **** poor response from ISS to IAC's concerns some of the more 'moderate' (aka slightly more sober and less trigger happy) members of IAC would have given ISS's POV more credit. However ISS leadership was entirely unresponsive and those of us (however slightly) inclined to argue for restraint toward ISS had no reason to object at all. ISS made their bed, now they must to lie in its remains.

---

Sartorii, the difficulty we have is primarily for one simple reason. The legitimate concerns of the moderate members of IAC, have been relayed through notably less moderate representatives. Now, say what you like about who did what to whom, but surely the first point, assuming one _actually_ wants to settle a dispute, is negotiation?

---

Originally by: Butter Dog

---

Well, its a fact that ISS leadership and particularly Count was gripped with bloodlust when we all rolled into F4 with 400 people.

It was only the comparative weakness of your most of your Allies (talk about fair weather friends), which led to the failure of ISS managements wish to wipe IAC from the map from becoming a reality.

But lets not beat around the bush here - ISS responded to a local threat with crazed bloodlust, when it should have been repositioning itself diplomatically. When your allies left at the sight of AAA, you put together a botched handover plan to make it look as if that was your intention all along.

Not good enough.

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Originally by: sartorii

---

Edited by: sartorii on 14/01/2007 00:29:36

Originally by: elchief

---

Despite what a lot of people think the majority of people dont hate iss on a personal level it is in fact the things done by a few leaders in the past..

---

QFT.

if not for the **** poor response from ISS to IAC's concerns some of the more 'moderate' (aka slightly more sober and less trigger happy) members of IAC would have given ISS's POV more credit. However ISS leadership was entirely unresponsive and those of us (however slightly) inclined to argue for restraint toward ISS had no reason to object at all. ISS made their bed, now they must to lie in its remains.

---

Sartorii, the difficulty we have is primarily for one simple reason. The legitimate concerns of the moderate members of IAC, have been relayed through notably less moderate representatives. Now, say what you like about who did what to whom, but surely the first point, assuming one _actually_ wants to settle a dispute, is negotiation?

---

Originally by: sartorii

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Originally by: sartorii

---

Edited by: sartorii on 14/01/2007 00:29:36

Originally by: elchief

---

Despite what a lot of people think the majority of people dont hate iss on a personal level it is in fact the things done by a few leaders in the past..

---

QFT.

if not for the **** poor response from ISS to IAC's concerns some of the more 'moderate' (aka slightly more sober and less trigger happy) members of IAC would have given ISS's POV more credit. However ISS leadership was entirely unresponsive and those of us (however slightly) inclined to argue for restraint toward ISS had no reason to object at all. ISS made their bed, now they must to lie in its remains.

---

Sartorii, the difficulty we have is primarily for one simple reason. The legitimate concerns of the moderate members of IAC, have been relayed through notably less moderate representatives. Now, say what you like about who did what to whom, but surely the first point, assuming one _actually_ wants to settle a dispute, is negotiation?

---

The Time for Negotiation ended when ISS invaded and took F4. PRIOR to that, talks would have been entertained (ofc sleep being more important to some)

but by taking F4, ISS incurred the wrath of all IAC Directors and Corporations.

Count's 'offer' and subsequent public posting of internal negotiations (another illustraion of ISS lack of respect towards IAC) here for some small pseudo political gain, removed all traces of sympathy for ISS. (Stupid Emails sent to IAC CEOs about our Executive did not help the ISS cause either tbh)

Those æforum warriorsÆ who believe any offer which included leaving ISS assets (POS) intact in IAC space was 'fair' or in anyway acceptable are fools, with no understanding of Sovereignty

IAC fully supports itÆs Executive Council. ISSÆs blatant and continual disregard and disrespect for our Executive is and remains a slap in the face to IAC as a whole and prevents any feelings of sympathy or regret for how things æmight have been differentÆ.

Perhaps in future incarnations ISS will recognize that ACTUAL DIPLOMACY instead of simple arrogant dismissal is a REQUIREMENT to attempt to maintain a 'neutral' stance (even as flawed as that attempt is in Eve's current environment).

---

Originally by: Xrak

---

Great post.

Far too many people have just jumped on the "Down with ISS" bandwagon, without even actually thinking about it.

---

Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo

---

Originally by: Xrak

---

Great post.

Far too many people have just jumped on the "Down with ISS" bandwagon, without even actually thinking about it.

---

but you must also remember that ISS is by far not the apolitical, 'bring people into 0.0' force it enjoys portraying itself as. For one thing, it is not very feasable to maintain true neutrality out there, if only because one set of big guns has to be counterbalanced by another. ISS found such guns not in the hired graces of MC, but in active patronage of BOB/FIX/LV and the entire southwestern mantrain. Given BNC's investments into ISS projects as well as certain MC members whose alts took a very directly-involved roles in ISS management, the whole thing ends up looking like you're speaking up favourably for a group often viewed as one of your more discrete vassals.

---

Originally by: Layla

---

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions given in this post are entirely personal and should not be construed as reflecting those of my corporation, alliance or associates.

The Eve Universe as a whole owes ISS an immense debt for showing that investment by individual players can be used to bring something large and worthwhile into being. The ideals of ISS remain honorable and true to this day. The detractors of ISS may decry the detail of how ISS achieves their aim of opening up 0.0 to the Eve population, but I know that ISS has achieved its aims and paid billions in premiums to its share-holders in the process.

I see ISS as one of the few positive, progressive and exciting concepts within the Eve Universe. I would hate to see that destroyed.

I would like to pay something back to ISS in this, their hour of need. I shall be donating 500 million isk to an ISS Management character to help them in their current conflict.

I would like to invite other members of the Eve community to do the same.

This is not an "official" ISS post, nor has it even been cleared by their management. I am not associated with ISS. I have some shares, but I am not trying to revive their worth. I am trying in the only way I can to support an organisation which has far more positive aspects in Eve than its current detractors give it credit for.

I hope other players will join me in supporting ISS so that it can continue to be a positive force within Eve.

---

Originally by: Layla

---

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions given in this post are entirely personal and should not be construed as reflecting those of my corporation, alliance or associates.

The Eve Universe as a whole owes ISS an immense debt for showing that investment by individual players can be used to bring something large and worthwhile into being. The ideals of ISS remain honorable and true to this day. The detractors of ISS may decry the detail of how ISS achieves their aim of opening up 0.0 to the Eve population, but I know that ISS has achieved its aims and paid billions in premiums to its share-holders in the process.

I see ISS as one of the few positive, progressive and exciting concepts within the Eve Universe. I would hate to see that destroyed.

I would like to pay something back to ISS in this, their hour of need. I shall be donating 500 million isk to an ISS Management character to help them in their current conflict.

I would like to invite other members of the Eve community to do the same.

This is not an "official" ISS post, nor has it even been cleared by their management. I am not associated with ISS. I have some shares, but I am not trying to revive their worth. I am trying in the only way I can to support an organisation which has far more positive aspects in Eve than its current detractors give it credit for.

I hope other players will join me in supporting ISS so that it can continue to be a positive force within Eve.

---

Originally by: Leonardo Sabrioski

---

ISS makes a profit everytime u dock... if u want to help them... just dock and redock aproximately 500 million times....

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

Originally by: Leonardo Sabrioski

---

ISS makes a profit everytime u dock... if u want to help them... just dock and redock aproximately 500 million times....

---

Need to find an ISS station first.

---

Originally by: Algey

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

Originally by: Leonardo Sabrioski

---

ISS makes a profit everytime u dock... if u want to help them... just dock and redock aproximately 500 million times....

---

Need to find an ISS station first.

---

That'd be hard, ISS don't own stations. There are two more public stations, owned by general members of the Eve community left though.

---

Originally by: Algey

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

Originally by: Leonardo Sabrioski

---

ISS makes a profit everytime u dock... if u want to help them... just dock and redock aproximately 500 million times....

---

Need to find an ISS station first.

---

That'd be hard, ISS don't own stations. There are two more public stations, owned by general members of the Eve community left though.

---

Quote:

---

In the 17 months since ISS was conceived we have constructed 6 public and 2 private outposts

---

Originally by: Algey

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

Need to find an ISS station first.

---

That'd be hard, ISS don't own stations.

---

Quote:

---

There are two more public stations, owned by general members of the Eve community left though.

---

Originally by: Itaro Flagg

---

Quote:

---

In the 17 months since ISS was conceived we have constructed 6 public and 2 private outposts

---

Hah!

---

Originally by: Itaro Flagg

---

Aww, you don't know ISS nearly as well as you think. ISS actually has 2 privately owned outposts (I think its Consido and Fabrica that are privately held, someone correct me if I'm wrong).

But ya, ISS *does* have privately owned stations.

http://eve-iss.com/ISSO/2.asp

Quote:

---

In the 17 months since ISS was conceived we have constructed 6 public and 2 private outposts

---

Hah!

---

Originally by: Kaosaur

---

Edited by: Kaosaur on 31/01/2007 00:59:53
The EVE Community owes ISS?

*******s. How about ISS owes me 450 mil for the 'Geddon, fittings, mods and assorted items that I left docked in Marginis and was blocked access to simply because I quit ISSN and joined a neutral corp!!!

I gave my blood, sweat, tears and ISK for that money-grubbing Alliance and the only thing it got me was a better group of people to play the game with when I left.

---

Originally by: Kaosaur

---

The EVE Community owes ISS?

*******s. How about ISS owes me 450 mil for the 'Geddon, fittings, mods and assorted items that I left docked in Marginis and was blocked access to simply because I quit ISSN and joined a neutral corp!!!

I gave my blood, sweat, tears and ISK for that money-grubbing Alliance and the only thing it got me was a better group of people to play the game with when I left.

---

Originally by: Hehulk

---

Originally by: Kaosaur

---

The EVE Community owes ISS?

*******s. How about ISS owes me 450 mil for the 'Geddon, fittings, mods and assorted items that I left docked in Marginis and was blocked access to simply because I quit ISSN and joined a neutral corp!!!

I gave my blood, sweat, tears and ISK for that money-grubbing Alliance and the only thing it got me was a better group of people to play the game with when I left.

---

Would you be refering to the small period that DNGD was denied acess to all of the ISS stations over what appeared to be a massive back-stab when it was in-actual fact a mix up with the way sov work? Cause if that's it, I'd imagine you can now dock.

---

Originally by: Algey

---

Originally by: Kaosaur

---

Edited by: Kaosaur on 31/01/2007 00:59:53
The EVE Community owes ISS?

*******s. How about ISS owes me 450 mil for the 'Geddon, fittings, mods and assorted items that I left docked in Marginis and was blocked access to simply because I quit ISSN and joined a neutral corp!!!

I gave my blood, sweat, tears and ISK for that money-grubbing Alliance and the only thing it got me was a better group of people to play the game with when I left.

---

If you joined a neutral corp you wouldn't have had any problems docking in Marginis, only known hostile corps (and not all of them) were blocked from docking.

Also as a neutral you could have left untouched, well except by IAC's pirates.

---

Originally by: Duke Grail

---

Edited by: Duke Grail on 31/01/2007 20:04:05
Wow... who dug this old thread up?

Originally by: Algey

---

Don't you understand... Piracy is for people who kill things indiscriminatly because that's how they make money. We Shoost HOSTILES. If you don't want to be shot by IAC, join a corp that isn't red to IAC. This is called protecting our space from our enemys.

(PS: Noob corps are our enemys too, so if you want to come out and visit...and not get shot by us, join a real corp.)

---

---

Originally by: BustyBounty

---

those corupt bastards probably wont even notice 500mil has entered there wallets

---

Originally by: Duke Grail

---

Don't you understand... Piracy is for people who kill things indiscriminatly because that's how they make money. We Shoost HOSTILES. If you don't want to be shot by IAC, join a corp that isn't red to IAC. This is called protecting our space from our enemys.

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Originally by: Duke Grail

---

Don't you understand... Piracy is for people who kill things indiscriminatly because that's how they make money. We Shoost HOSTILES. If you don't want to be shot by IAC, join a corp that isn't red to IAC. This is called protecting our space from our enemys.

---

Shooting things indiscriminantly to make money. Would that be like, starting a fight with your next door neighbours because they have outposts?

Or perhaps it's just camping Doril and HED-GP?

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Edited by: James Lyrus on 01/02/2007 15:06:56
The Priory. The caring pirates.

---

Originally by: Vasectomizer

---

The new NBSI policy is very cool though, bet the Navy guys are frothing at the mouths to actually just go and start killing instead of adopting a defensive posture all the time or waiting for clarification or questioning what to do when neutrals or blues are in gangs with reds. Just. F#@%king. Shoot! About time, enjoy the policy change ISSN + friends (I know there's probably some PRAX guys itching for this, too!).

---

Originally by: Empyre

---

...
joking aside, true neutrality is hard to maintain in this game.. some idiot(s) will ALWAYS come along and take advantage of it one way or another.

---

Originally by: patteSatan

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

---

Shooting things indiscriminantly to make money. Would that be like, starting a fight with your next door neighbours because they have outposts?

---

Originally by: 0August0

---

Originally by: patteSatan

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

---

Shooting things indiscriminantly to make money. Would that be like, starting a fight with your next door neighbours because they have outposts?

---

That's a perfect description of ISS in my book.

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

We started the shooting, but from our point of view the "war" started many months before that.

ISS started the POS war, unfortunatly for them, we ended it.

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

This horse died a long time ago.

We started the shooting, but from our point of view the "war" started many months before that.

ISS started the POS war, unfortunatly for them, we ended it.

---

Originally by: Barrier Solo

---

Edited by: Barrier Solo on 01/02/2007 21:11:04

Originally by: Empyre

---

...
joking aside, true neutrality is hard to maintain in this game.. some idiot(s) will ALWAYS come along and take advantage of it one way or another.

---

ISS isn't neutral! <insert reason into rectum>

---

Originally by: Algey

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

This horse died a long time ago.

We started the shooting, but from our point of view the "war" started many months before that.

ISS started the POS war, unfortunatly for them, we ended it.

---

Hehe, Foo you even stated in local that you were intending to have a pos war. Look you rallied a load of allies together and ganked us good and proper. You're now under Goon and AAA protection, and have a nice area in which to build them capital ships set up.

I cannot see why you aren't more proud of it.

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

We started the shooting, but from our point of view the "war" started many months before that.

ISS started the POS war, unfortunatly for them, we ended it.

---

I find those two statements somewhat contradictory.

---

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---

blah blah blah hearsay and rabble coming from a coward. spin your web somewhere else before you get your alliance into more trouble and loose more outposts.

---

Originally by: 0August0

---

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---

blah blah blah hearsay and rabble coming from a coward. spin your web somewhere else before you get your alliance into more trouble and loose more outposts.

---

Coward? Really dude get a clue, this is a computer game not RL warfare. The only cowards I see here are those who call people names while hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.

---

Originally by: 0August0

---

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---

blah blah blah hearsay and rabble coming from a coward. spin your web somewhere else before you get your alliance into more trouble and loose more outposts.

---

Coward? Really dude get a clue, this is a computer game not RL warfare. The only cowards I see here are those who call people names while hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

We started the shooting, but from our point of view the "war" started many months before that.

ISS started the POS war, unfortunatly for them, we ended it.

---

I find those two statements somewhat contradictory.

---

oh well.

Algey, some of the members in my alliance were constently asking me why we didn't attack your POS's on that first weekend. After destroying your fleets not once, but twice, we peacefully headed out of the system and back to our station. I've already tried to explain this to you.

As for the coalition, It didn't show up until we needed help, and being the excelent allies that they are they came with a sizable force to insure our survival.

If you all had not attacked our F4 station we probably would have ended the -10 at the end of a few weeks after securing a more favorable trade and military agreement from your leaders. However, you acted in exactly the fashion that showed how volatile and unprodictable you can be and therefore you had to be removed for us to continue to feel safe at night.

I personally have spent A LOT of time and energy making sure IAC survived not only this war, but the previous one as well. That is probably the reason why you see me so vocal on these boards.

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

oh well.

Algey, some of the members in my alliance were constently asking me why we didn't attack your POS's on that first weekend. After destroying your fleets not once, but twice, we peacefully headed out of the system and back to our station. I've already tried to explain this to you.

As for the coalition, It didn't show up until we needed help, and being the excelent allies that they are they came with a sizable force to insure our survival.

If you all had not attacked our F4 station we probably would have ended the -10 at the end of a few weeks after securing a more favorable trade and military agreement from your leaders. However, you acted in exactly the fashion that showed how volatile and unprodictable you can be and therefore you had to be removed for us to continue to feel safe at night.

I personally have spent A LOT of time and energy making sure IAC survived not only this war, but the previous one as well. That is probably the reason why you see me so vocal on these boards.

IAC is now stronger, more organized, and better prepared for the next MC invasion, because we all know Tyrrax is out there right now ****ing in someones cheerios

---

Originally by: Empyre

---

Edited by: Empyre on 02/02/2007 18:27:15
The constant changes in intentions, justification and alterior motive speak one thing to me.. the ends justify the means, even though it's apparent you're trying to find means to justify that end.. even though every thread about it gets locked because you and your allies and you end up being the only ones posting in it with smack. Not wrong, just call it like it really is.

It reminds me of those lifetime criminals that go in and out of jail for robbing stores. They'll do anything in their power to try and make people believe their intentions weren't bad, even as the jury is viewing the security tape of them beating the person behind the counter.

---

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---

The only thing that I see here is your alliance calling us liars. Which will only lead you to loosing more outposts. So I recommend you shut your holes before we take what pride you have left.

---

Originally by: Empyre

---

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---

The only thing that I see here is your alliance calling us liars. Which will only lead you to loosing more outposts. So I recommend you shut your holes before we take what pride you have left.

---

wonder why every other post from you lately is "you wanna look at me funny? wanna lose another outpost?" could it be that there is "something" on the nearby horizon that is injecting confidence straight into your veins? (spies! lies! )

but seriously. i'm not even trying to smack here. any person with Reading Comprehension I can see that I am trying to post about this in a semi-civil manner. Why we continue to try and show you what is obvious to a lot of others is beyond me..

come to think of it.. I don't know why I got suckered into posting here, it's pointless.

---

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---

The only thing that I see here is your alliance calling us liars. Which will only lead you to loosing more outposts. So I recommend you shut your holes before we take what pride you have left.

---

Originally by: Murukan

---

i agree it is pointless for you guys to post here. You lost, and your alliance is a non factor now, just accept it.

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

lets recap shall we.

IAC starts shooting ISS. IAC fails to tell ISS our intentions, ISS sees it as us taking their stations.

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

Edited by: DHB FooFighter on 02/02/2007 19:53:59
lets recap shall we.

IAC starts shooting ISS. IAC fails to tell ISS our intentions, ISS sees it as us taking their stations. After 2 days of Fighting and numerous victories by IAC forces, yet not even so much as a cov ops scouting POS, ISS calls in the MC, KIA, FIX, and LV.

IAC backpedals, losing F4r mostly to our own faliure to secure the moons in our outpost system and to the incredible response time of the MC.

IAC fights a defense War. We wait, we give up ground and POS for time. We know that the MC is constricted by time and everyday we delay we gain more and more of an advantage.

F4 falls after a week of "fighting". After the initial surge MC forces work on locking down the system at all times. They accomplish this quite well with most IAC forces being confind to the POS. I believe the only reason we had any morale after this dominating performance was our cov ops pilots. If any hostile logged off it had at least 2 cov ops scanning it down at all times. 2 carriers and numerous battleship kills later our Cov ops pilot was petitioned .

The following week JBY is smashed into reinforced mode and IAC morale falls to an all time low. I remember being convo'd by an IAC member who told me flat out I needed to boost morale amongst the troops. One of my persoanl favorite methods of doing that was the shuttle bombing of the MC pos, especially in my snake pod.

Then AAA shows up and the tide of war is changed. AAA want a capital ship fight, and they see our plight as a good way of obtaining that fight. However, the MC pulls out and the day IAC has been waiting for arrived. We get JBY back on its feet and then pull off the morale booster of the century.

MC begins its whitdrawl in the following days. Many of the MC troops have already left system, but our falcon pilot eyeballing the MC pos in F4 informs me that Seleene is there offlining the MC pos. SO i get together a rag-tag gang with any ships our pilots had left.

We know ISS is attempting to form a gang but after they fail to do so we swoop in, steal the MC pos and erect our own deathstar in its place. After this it was over for the ISS in F4. We take back the system after minimal resistance.

this is one hell of a crappy write up i know, but im in a rush will write the rest later :P

---

Originally by: Dekiri

---

This rambling is ridiculous. No matter what IAC had planned the mistakes made by count gave them any excuse they might need to crush you.

The point is that bloodlust hit the ISS and they attacked the bottleshop (if i remember right correct me if i got the name wrong) and that justifies any response.
What ever they actually planned is something noone will be able toproove afterwards and the ISS did dig their own hole there by being over agressive.

---

Originally by: Dekiri

---

I did not claim to know what IAC wanted to do. All i said is that ISS is in no position to whine about it.

---

Originally by: Sgt Napalm

---

This thread truly needs a good locking

---

Originally by: Dekiri

---

Edited by: Dekiri on 02/02/2007 20:31:21
I did not claim to know what IAC wanted to do. All i said is that ISS is in no position to whine about it.

Not to mention that NOONE expected count to go the way of attacking IAC stations. If you claim IAC expected and counted on it then it makes the ISS really look bad as a non territorial and peaceful alliance it always was.

---

Originally by: Algey

---

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---

The only thing that I see here is your alliance calling us liars. Which will only lead you to loosing more outposts. So I recommend you shut your holes before we take what pride you have left.

---

We already know of the planned attack. Your feeble attempt to justify things makes me laugh. Your diplomatic skills I remain in awe of however, with the continual threats and insults.

The thing is it won't be IAC attacking us on their own will it, and YOU have never taken anything from us have you.

---

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---

lol...

Integrity... ISS

what drugs have you taken today? Integrity of ISS started being assassinated by your leadership when you took over EC- outpost from BoB and ASCN. Stop trying to play the protagonist after involving yourselves in some of the most controversial decisions known to EVE.

You've bloodied a lot of noses and given false handshakes. Now isn't the time to try and rally some forum or moral victory.

---

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---

Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 02/02/2007 21:49:01

Originally by: Algey

---

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---

The only thing that I see here is your alliance calling us liars. Which will only lead you to loosing more outposts. So I recommend you shut your holes before we take what pride you have left.

---

We already know of the planned attack. Your feeble attempt to justify things makes me laugh. Your diplomatic skills I remain in awe of however, with the continual threats and insults.

The thing is it won't be IAC attacking us on their own will it, and YOU have never taken anything from us have you.

---

I don't have to be diplomatic with isk dogs. And I do believe every insult of ISS is well deserved and every threat in the past has been realized. Your the isk maggots of EVE.

---

Originally by: James Snowscoran

---

Kaylana Syi could give Ginger Magician a run for his money when it comes to smacktalking and ego-inflation.

---

Originally by: DHB FooFighter

---

Edited by: DHB FooFighter on 02/02/2007 19:53:59 If any hostile logged off it had at least 2 cov ops scanning it down at all times. 2 carriers and numerous battleship kills later our Cov ops pilot was petitioned .

---

Originally by: Empyre

---

Originally by: James Snowscoran

---

Kaylana Syi could give Ginger Magician a run for his money when it comes to smacktalking and ego-inflation.

---

you'd kind of hope for some kind of tact or intuit of fact if you were to rank the ability to talk smack. all i've seen so far from the aforementioned subject is very comparable to one of those electronic key-chain insult machines..

you pick it up at the store, laugh about it with your friends, but you're sick and tired of the dang thing by the time you get home.

---

Originally by: Bach

---

Outposts cost huge amounts of isk in maintenance fees and provide little strategic benefit. I was privy to the costs of maintaining Scalding Pass at one time and I'll tell you that drain on the wallet did more damage than the RAGOONs.

---

Originally by: Patch86

---

Combat in EVE is non-consensual. Unlike most games, EVE, by design, forces you to be ready for violence everywhere-even hi-sec space.

---

Originally by: Empyre

---

Originally by: James Snowscoran

---

Kaylana Syi could give Ginger Magician a run for his money when it comes to smacktalking and ego-inflation.

---

you'd kind of hope for some kind of tact or intuit of fact if you were to rank the ability to talk smack. all i've seen so far from the aforementioned subject is very comparable to one of those electronic key-chain insult machines..

you pick it up at the store, laugh about it with your friends, but you're sick and tired of the dang thing by the time you get home.

---

Originally by: Murukan

---

Don't play innocent. You guys get what you deserve. During the beginning of the war ISS was grandstanding and smacking plenty at IAC's expense. Now the roles are reversed, suck it up and stop being such a whiny minge.

---

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---

You'd think people would be more appreciative. Afterall you can use this thread to make some comics to put my picture in.

I am just trying to better your situation is all... =/

---

Originally by: Empyre

---

whats that thing called where one player fights with another player?

---

Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz

---

Originally by: Empyre

---

whats that thing called where one player fights with another player?

---

Pew pew?

---

Originally by: Empyre

---

Edited by: Empyre on 03/02/2007 05:02:45

Originally by: Murukan

---

Don't play innocent. You guys get what you deserve. During the beginning of the war ISS was grandstanding and smacking plenty at IAC's expense. Now the roles are reversed, suck it up and stop being such a whiny minge.

---

what does this have to do with the price of tea in.. cite a single example of where i was a part of what you're speaking of or don't quote me.. it doesn't make much sense nor apply to me otherwise. it is bugging me that i can't figure out what a minge is, though.

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---

You'd think people would be more appreciative. Afterall you can use this thread to make some comics to put my picture in.

I am just trying to better your situation is all... =/

---

i didn't make the cartoon but it was fairly depicted IMHO. I am appreciative of the conversation, though.. it made work go by a little faster waiting for that 2pm meeting on a friday before i could go home.

and don't worry about making my situation any better. the only people you really shafted were the stockholders of the stations and the local marketers. you may have inconvenienced a handful of folks collectively, but isk/asset loss is but a minor inconvenience that eve affords many avenues for replenishment. our pride is not in isk, as that can be broken easily.. ironically enough, you along with others seem fixated on the idea that this is not so.

but personally? personally you guys made my life a whole heck of a lot easier in the game. while i sympathize with those that may feel otherwise, i find it liberating to not be attached anywhere specifically and the freedom to.. whats that thing called where one player fights with another player?

edit: and thank the good Lord in Heaven i don't have to refuel a freaking POS for a while!!

---

Originally by: Empyre

---

edit: and thank the good Lord in Heaven i don't have to refuel a freaking POS for a while!!

---

Originally by: ReaperOfSly

---

I can't believe IAC and BOW (Band Of Wagons) are still smacktalking. Thought you guys had worked this out of your systems? You've got some shiny new stations (which weren't even ours in the first place - you stole them from random people all over eve), but you don't need to keep beating your chests about it. It makes you look like ten-year-olds, honest to god, it does.

---

Originally by: ReaperOfSly

---

I can't believe IAC and BOW (Band Of Wagons) are still smacktalking. Thought you guys had worked this out of your systems? You've got some shiny new stations (which weren't even ours in the first place - you stole them from random people all over eve), but you don't need to keep beating your chests about it. It makes you look like ten-year-olds, honest to god, it does.

---

Originally by: Empyre

---

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---

You'd think people would be more appreciative. Afterall you can use this thread to make some comics to put my picture in.

I am just trying to better your situation is all... =/

---

i didn't make the cartoon but it was fairly depicted IMHO.

---

Originally by: Sgt Napalm

---

This thread truly needs a good locking

---

Originally by: ReaperOfSly

---

I can't believe IAC and BOW (Band Of Wagons) are still smacktalking. Thought you guys had worked this out of your systems? You've got some shiny new stations (which weren't even ours in the first place - you stole them from random people all over eve), but you don't need to keep beating your chests about it. It makes you look like ten-year-olds, honest to god, it does.

---

Originally by: Murukan

---

Originally by: ReaperOfSly

---

I can't believe IAC and BOW (Band Of Wagons) are still smacktalking. Thought you guys had worked this out of your systems? You've got some shiny new stations (which weren't even ours in the first place - you stole them from random people all over eve), but you don't need to keep beating your chests about it. It makes you look like ten-year-olds, honest to god, it does.

---

hahahaha that's rich. You had a huge bandwagon to take F4, it's just your bandwagon consisted of pathetic forces which had no resolve, and thus collapsed really easily. You in fact smacked quite a bit during that conflict, and now oops shoe is on the other foot and you're offended. Seriously get over it, i know it is tough to go from thinking you're on top of the world to the ****ter, but that's where iss belongs you just got to get used to it.

---