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Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 22:10:00 - [751] Originally by: Christopher Dalran Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 08/02/2007 21:52:48 * !IMPORTANT! * STEP BY STEP ANTI NANO/I-STAB INSTRUCTIONS This is a little trick i learned a while back while trying to hit some smaller faster frigates using my large guns durring a mission a while back and it works equally well for fast orbiting battleships moving at 3 km/s +. I;ve been debating heavily keeping this information to myself but i'm concerned nano's and i-stabs might take a swing from the nerf bat if i dont release this information. First your going to need to reduce your top speed to < 25% of your max, you turn fastest at or below these speeds. Second your going to want to make sure that you have added transversal velocity to your display, if not do it as this will tell you what chance you have to hit. After you have done that you need to manually fly your ship, your going to want to have it spin around in circle almoast as if spinning like a top. Of course its not going to spin stationary but you'll get prety close under 25% max speed. To do this you instruct your ship to fly directly backwards but 1 or 2 degrees to the side you want it to spin. Keep an eye on your targets transversal, you'll notice that if you play with your max speed you can varry the speed your ship spins (slower speed = faster spin). The goal here is to try and find a target speed that makes you spin at just the right speed to match the orbiting battleship. You should notice something interresting, your targets transversal takes a nose dive through the floor. Yes you guessed correctly, your adding the rotational velocity of your ship to your turrents causing them to actually have to track much less. Coincidentally the last movie The Last Starfighter inspired me to try this. huahuahau if that works fellow.. You are my hereo.. would be so dammm funny.. huahauhauahua If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
ZUDD Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.02.09 00:06:00 - [752] Having flown nano ships for years, and more recently having tried a nano Dominix, there is one simple solution to the problem that will nerf Battleships that travel 4000 m/s and not ships like the vagabond or even ceptors that players want to speed boost. All that has to be done is to add a cargo hold modifier to each nanofiber. If each one takes off 10% of your total cargo hold, it will have serious consequences to Battleships that have 7 low slots compared to cruisers that have 4-5 and will have barely an effect on frigates that have 3 or less low slots. Why a cargo hold nerf and not something else like Nos? I donÆt think people who suggest things like a mass increase or a nos nerf have ever flown a nano BS. The ship survives of cap 800s if you decrease the cargo bay the nano BS will not be as viable as a solo pwnmobile, a Battleship that has 70% less cargo hold is going to fit only 1 reload of 800s for its injector. Adding a cargo modifier to nano and inertial stabs will not nerf speed ships into non-existence, it will balance them out.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.09 02:41:00 - [753] Edited by: Aramendel on 09/02/2007 02:42:14 Originally by: Shyalud ok, look at it a different way. What if someone spent an equal amount of time (say a raven pilot) and money on maximizing the ship? With equal amount of money, comparable skill training (in the appropriate areas) and similar but obviously ship/systems specific implants and rigs. Would this pilot in this raven be horibly outmatched by the nanophoon? ... Don't think that nano-phoon would kill it. Might get away, but wouldn't kill it. Not "might" get away, but WILL get away. Even if you would have bothered to fit something like a "warp disruptor". Of cource it is possible to make antisetups against nanoships. The problem, however, is that 90% of these setups only cause the ship to escape. If other ships meet something which counters their setup they do not flee, but die. Basically, the risk/reward for nanosetups is broken. When you need to decide between a setup where you either kill or die or one where you either kill or flee it gets rather obvious which one will be preferred.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.09 03:16:00 - [754] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 09/02/2007 02:42:14 Originally by: Shyalud ok, look at it a different way. What if someone spent an equal amount of time (say a raven pilot) and money on maximizing the ship? With equal amount of money, comparable skill training (in the appropriate areas) and similar but obviously ship/systems specific implants and rigs. Would this pilot in this raven be horibly outmatched by the nanophoon? ... Don't think that nano-phoon would kill it. Might get away, but wouldn't kill it. Not "might" get away, but WILL get away. Even if you would have bothered to fit something like a "warp disruptor". Of cource it is possible to make antisetups against nanoships. The problem, however, is that 90% of these setups only cause the ship to escape. If other ships meet something which counters their setup they do not flee, but die. Basically, the risk/reward for nanosetups is broken. When you need to decide between a setup where you either kill or die or one where you either kill or flee it gets rather obvious which one will be preferred. well, maybe your biggest counter to rampant nanoships is the sheer amount of money it takes to build one versus the reward for having built it. What's the point if you can't kill anything worth killing? I can run most camps in a well fitted Ares at a much cheaper price tag, and can haul anything I need to in it if I need to run camps to do it. No sense wasting the billions on skills, rigs, implants, etc to do it. If you nerf the nanos people will find other ways to get cheap ganks. Just ADAPT Quote: The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
JVol	Posted - 2007.02.09 03:38:00 - [755] The more I think about it the more I like the idea of tractor beams pulling a ship closer to you, just like cargo cans.. To pull a "nanoed" ship closer to you in a ship that has No I-stabs or nanos should be easy since your going to be much heavier than the NP.. one tractor beam and 2 webs = dead nanoBs
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.02.09 04:14:00 - [756] Originally by: Aramendel Did you even read what I wrote before? Webs, damps, etc are identical to pre kali. Speed is 60% higher. Te setup was balanced before without the 60% speed increase. What is balancing it now? It's obviously balanced. Please give my lasers a 60% damage boost. That would obviously be balanced in the same way. PEW PEW PEW!!!!! Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
xHomicide Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.09 08:50:00 - [757] Originally by: Aramendel Did you even read what I wrote before? Webs, damps, etc are identical to pre kali. Speed is 60% higher. Te setup was balanced before without the 60% speed increase. What is balancing it now? Because there are no such things as damp rigs ___________________________________________________ http://www.razor-eve.org/killboard/?a=kills
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2007.02.09 09:16:00 - [758] What i find ironic about this subject is that people whine about a ship that is as it should be consider what role the Minmatars has. As ive read and people so nice put it, these are the advantages of Minmatars : 1. Speed 2. Alpha strike 3. Versality #1 Is in question here. Remove the speed the phoon has, and remove one of the Minnies advantage.... #2 The Tier 3 Amarr ship has now a higher Alpha strike then any Minnie ship, so that advantage has gone.. #3 This can be looked at in different manners. Not being good at anything, but decent in everything doesnt really mean a good thing. As ive seen in EVE you have to excell in something to do well. And to do very well you group the best in each region and you get a great result. The other side of the coin is that sure it takes a **** load of skills to be good at minnies. But as many say, its a fun race to play as you can shield tank, armor tank, short range, long range and so on... Anyway...this wasnt ment as a minnie whining post. More like a point at removing the speed advantage, you should see what you do to the advantage we Minmatar has. If Minmatars are supose to have a speed advantage, maybe add stacking penalty on those modules. But, grant less penalty on minnie ships... All the good ships by minnies relies on speed...
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.09 10:27:00 - [759] Naobs are NOT expensive for god's sake. If you fit 1 Bil ina a Battleship but it can live 5 times longer than a common 200 mil BS. It is as cheap as a common setup! Other issue is any uber setup can be easily countered by an specific cheap setup with Ewar usually. But the extreme nanobattleships need a very expensive coutner.. the minamtar recon ships. Change the bellicose TP bonus to a 20% range bonus toweb per level and everyone will be happy. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.09 11:32:00 - [760] Originally by: Shyalud well, maybe your biggest counter to rampant nanoships is the sheer amount of money it takes to build one versus the reward for having built it. What's the point if you can't kill anything worth killing? Killing is not the issue. Surviving anything unless you made a pilot error is it. Eve is a very risk-reward based game. You can pimp up your ship with billions and make it a good deal stronger - however, if you make an error or meet an overwhelming force you still die. Quote: I can run most camps in a well fitted Ares at a much cheaper price tag, and can haul anything I need to in it if I need to run camps to do it. No sense wasting the billions on skills, rigs, implants, etc to do it. If you nerf the nanos people will find other ways to get cheap ganks. Just ADAPT To repeat myself, if nanoBS would have the dps, nospower and hitpoint buffer of a ceptor (or even force recon) noone would complain about them. Originally by: xHomicide Because there are no such things as damp rigs And which difference do they make exactly vs nanoships? Originally by: Happster #1 Is in question here. Remove the speed the phoon has, and remove one of the Minnies advantage.... Balancing something != removing something. Pre-kali the nanophoon was a pretty viable, balanced setup. A racial identity does not justify something to be too strong. Look up the history of the gankgeddon.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.09 12:04:00 - [761] Listen, I once put three MWDs on a domi and got it over 1mil km/s. Though you could, you didn't see anyone doing because it didn't do anything for you except make you go fast..... If you can't kill anything with your setup, it's not a very good setup. People just need to learn how to counter it and the fad will end on it's own. Quote: The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.09 12:32:00 - [762] Originally by: Shyalud Listen, I once put three MWDs on a domi and got it over 1mil km/s. Though you could, you didn't see anyone doing because it didn't do anything for you except make you go fast..... You saw plenty of double MWD ravens. Which COULD kill stuff pretty nicely while being more or less invicible themselves. Quote: People just need to learn how to counter it and the fad will end on it's own. To the contrary, it will only strengthen itself - since the best counter to nanosetups are nanosetups themselves.
E Vile	Posted - 2007.02.09 12:45:00 - [763] No offense to anyone flying them, I don't blame you, but Nanophoons melt better then chedder. What good are smaller fast ships when a battleship can break the 10km mark. Put a stacking penalty on nanos/stabs, or make it so the big ships get less a bonus then small ones, or both. I am not one to cry nerf, but put battleships in the roll of battleships and bring back the small fast ship role.
Angeles Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.02.09 13:04:00 - [764] Originally by: E Vile No offense to anyone flying them, I don't blame you, but Nanophoons melt better then chedder. What good are smaller fast ships when a battleship can break the 10km mark. Put a stacking penalty on nanos/stabs, or make it so the big ships get less a bonus then small ones, or both. I am not one to cry nerf, but put battleships in the roll of battleships and bring back the small fast ship role. /signed Nanos are for noobs you dont need any specific skill to fit these, and to see a domi going 8.5km/s is just ridiculous
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.09 13:27:00 - [765] Edited by: Shyalud on 09/02/2007 13:24:00 Originally by: Aramendel To the contrary, it will only strengthen itself - since the best counter to nanosetups are nanosetups themselves. Well, you're wrong. There are plenty of counters, as many have pointed out. But, good luck with getting them nerfed. Quote: The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.09 14:06:00 - [766] Edited by: Aramendel on 09/02/2007 14:03:23 Originally by: Shyalud Well, you're wrong. There are plenty of counters, as many have pointed out. But, good luck with getting them nerfed. Correction: there are plenty of ways to make them flee. But not more as for other ships. The only real counter to them - as in being able to kill them - are minnie recons or other nanoBS. With the latter being more effective. If you have to decide to pick between counters you usually pick the most effective one. Which are, as said, nanoBS themselves.
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat	Posted - 2007.02.09 14:22:00 - [767] Originally by: ZUDD Why a cargo hold nerf and not something else like Nos? I donÆt think people who suggest things like a mass increase or a nos nerf have ever flown a nano BS. While your idea is not a bad one, your presumption is both pompous and quite false.
Angelic Resolution Arcanum Defence Forces	Posted - 2007.02.09 14:42:00 - [768] Originally by: xHomicide Originally by: Angelic Resolution Tested it on SiSi during DT. Hugin pilot tries to get into position, nanophoon warps away giving the huginin a few torps for it's trouble. Second time: Nanophoon fits 5 ogres, hugin locks the nanophoon down and the hugin got owned by 4 torps, 4 nos and 5 ogres. So for once the nano's didn't do a damn thing (Phoon went to 75% structure or so). Third time: Nanophoon tried the MWD + torp trick, didn't work. Launch drones, got a little bit webbed but got out of webber range. Hugin got owned by ogres + torps. Thoughts? Web, and stay in web range....its not like the huginn cant move. nanoed huginn has no issue outrunning ogres and torps. Should take ZERO damage. Time the injector correctly before you mwd cycle.
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.09 14:43:00 - [769] Originally by: Christopher Dalran Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 08/02/2007 21:52:48 * !IMPORTANT! * STEP BY STEP ANTI NANO/I-STAB INSTRUCTIONS This is a little trick i learned a while back while trying to hit some smaller faster frigates using my large guns durring a mission a while back and it works equally well for fast orbiting battleships moving at 3 km/s +. I;ve been debating heavily keeping this information to myself but i'm concerned nano's and i-stabs might take a swing from the nerf bat if i dont release this information. First your going to need to reduce your top speed to < 25% of your max, you turn fastest at or below these speeds. Second your going to want to make sure that you have added transversal velocity to your display, if not do it as this will tell you what chance you have to hit. After you have done that you need to manually fly your ship, your going to want to have it spin around in circle almoast as if spinning like a top. Of course its not going to spin stationary but you'll get prety close under 25% max speed. To do this you instruct your ship to fly directly backwards but 1 or 2 degrees to the side you want it to spin. Keep an eye on your targets transversal, you'll notice that if you play with your max speed you can varry the speed your ship spins (slower speed = faster spin). The goal here is to try and find a target speed that makes you spin at just the right speed to match the orbiting battleship. You should notice something interresting, your targets transversal takes a nose dive through the floor. Yes you guessed correctly, your adding the rotational velocity of your ship to your turrents causing them to actually have to track much less. Coincidentally the last movie The Last Starfighter inspired me to try this. * !IMPORTANT! * STEP BY STEP ANTI NANO/I-STAB INSTRUCTIONS Push F1 through F8. If you don't have long range large turrets fitted you will hit. His sig is so big that you are literally inside the nanoship. - Originally by: mazzilliu npcing is a f***ing exploit
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.09 15:25:00 - [770] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 09/02/2007 14:03:23 Originally by: Shyalud Well, you're wrong. There are plenty of counters, as many have pointed out. But, good luck with getting them nerfed. Correction: there are plenty of ways to make them flee. But not more as for other ships. The only real counter to them - as in being able to kill them - are minnie recons or other nanoBS. With the latter being more effective. If you have to decide to pick between counters you usually pick the most effective one. Which are, as said, nanoBS themselves. Wrong. Quote: The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2007.02.09 15:29:00 - [771] Originally by: Phelan Lore Originally by: Christopher Dalran * !IMPORTANT! * STEP BY STEP ANTI NANO/I-STAB INSTRUCTIONS Push F1 through F8. If you don't have long range large turrets fitted you will hit. His sig is so big that you are literally inside the nanoship. as for using close range weapons thats the whole point, the nano battleships use their speed to stay OUT of web range and inside scrammer range. If you have a blaster that can hit at 15-20km i would realy like to get one of those. However are you suggesting that the signature radius of the ship is somewhere around 20km actually considering you inside the ship? I've got to admit i never thought blasters would ever work at that range but i will ask some corpies to help me check and see.
Noriath	Posted - 2007.02.09 16:04:00 - [772] The problem with all of this is that even if you do manage to hit a nanoship, and even if you do manage to do some damage, as soon as the pilot realizes that he might acctually lose the fight all he has to do is double-click and within a few seconds he is out of your scram range and can warp off. The real power of the nanoship is that it can avoid any fight it can't win. It's just another chapter in the long line of no-risk tactics that sweep Eve because nobody wants to grind, but everyone wants to kill.
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat	Posted - 2007.02.09 16:27:00 - [773] Originally by: Noriath The problem with all of this is that even if you do manage to hit a nanoship, and even if you do manage to do some damage, as soon as the pilot realizes that he might acctually lose the fight all he has to do is double-click and within a few seconds he is out of your scram range and can warp off. The real power of the nanoship is that it can avoid any fight it can't win. Your describing the effect of speed and/or maneuvoring on a battlefield, which in itself is not actually a problem - not only nano-ships have the ability to dictate range, engagement distance and possess the ability to disengage when the fight doesn't appear to have a good outcome. The faster ship in an engagement always has this ability, this is not limited to just nano-ships, but interceptors, any ship with a MWD vs a ship without etc.. - in fact other ship types also have the option of safely disengaging from combat (snipers for example can warp out safely if they setup with safe spots and warp in spots correctly). The argument that a ship is overpowered because it can warp away so easily is somewhat invalid because you would also have to apply to all other classes of ships that have just as easy time disengaging - not limited to fast attack ships like inteceptors, vagabonds but also ship types such as snipers who with a planned out set of safe spots can also disengage with no risk if the battle looks bad.
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.09 16:29:00 - [774] Originally by: Christopher Dalran as for using close range weapons thats the whole point, the nano battleships use their speed to stay OUT of web range and inside scrammer range. If you have a blaster that can hit at 15-20km i would realy like to get one of those. However are you suggesting that the signature radius of the ship is somewhere around 20km actually considering you inside the ship? I've got to admit i never thought blasters would ever work at that range but i will ask some corpies to help me check and see. Neutron Blaster Mega with NULL. Ever Tried? Or even Antimatter... Armageddon with MegaPulse. Megathron with some tracking mods and 350mm rails II (nearly lost my 7km/s nanophoon to this). Tempest with AC's falloff is like close to 30km with barrage, and with EMP it has enough falloff still to easily kill nanoship before it kills you. N.F.F. Recruitment
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.09 16:51:00 - [775] Originally by: Tom Gunn The argument that a ship is overpowered because it can warp away so easily is somewhat invalid because you would also have to apply to all other classes of ships that have just as easy time disengaging - not limited to fast attack ships like inteceptors, vagabonds but also ship types such as snipers who with a planned out set of safe spots can also disengage with no risk if the battle looks bad. Problem here is that all these ships have other drawbacks. Snipers will die horribly if they jump into a gatecamp, also have low dps - lower than a nanoBS - and no nos and cannot stop a target from warping away on their own. Ceptors have even less dps and only a minimal HP buffer and are more vulnerable to nos. Force recons also have low dps and outside the pilgrim no nos. And are easier to lock down when they engage a target (especially the pilgrim, since it has no range bonus). Vagas dps, nos and hitpoint buffer is also below that of nanoBSs.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2007.02.09 18:25:00 - [776] Edited by: Aki Yamato on 09/02/2007 18:22:17 Aramendel and Noriath are right ! Combination of huge speed/maneuverability, satisfactory protection and fine firepower is deadly and out of balance betwen protection/firepower/mobility. You cant find such machine as nanobs on present battleffiels becose logic and laws works here but in eve does not. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
ZUDD Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.02.09 18:29:00 - [777] Originally by: Tom Gunn Originally by: ZUDD Why a cargo hold nerf and not something else like Nos? I donÆt think people who suggest things like a mass increase or a nos nerf have ever flown a nano BS. While your idea is not a bad one, your presumption is both pompous and quite false. Maybe you could enlighten me how a mass increase that makes you go slower is good for a module thats designed to increase your speed? Maybe CCP could change the item description to: "Fit this module to take up an empty slot" after they are nerfed.
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2007.02.09 18:32:00 - [778] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: Christopher Dalran as for using close range weapons thats the whole point, the nano battleships use their speed to stay OUT of web range and inside scrammer range. If you have a blaster that can hit at 15-20km i would realy like to get one of those. However are you suggesting that the signature radius of the ship is somewhere around 20km actually considering you inside the ship? I've got to admit i never thought blasters would ever work at that range but i will ask some corpies to help me check and see. Neutron Blaster Mega with NULL. Ever Tried? Or even Antimatter... Armageddon with MegaPulse. Megathron with some tracking mods and 350mm rails II (nearly lost my 7km/s nanophoon to this). Tempest with AC's falloff is like close to 30km with barrage, and with EMP it has enough falloff still to easily kill nanoship before it kills you. Never been too awfully fond of blasters unless its on a fast to be honest but null ammo on large neuts could give you the range. Normally i'm toting railguns around so i just figured out a good way to snag nano ships with horrible tracking. In any case they alwayse run away and to be brutally honest i realy dont care and nobody else probably should either, If i'm fighting someone its usually to keep them away from something so if they want to run away with their tails between their legs I win since i got exactly what i want. If your in low sec or 0.0 and your corp/alliance has a carrier then all you have to do is assign fighters to someone and have them attack the nano battleship. They can run and jump all they want but the fighters are just going to follow them around and pop them somewhere else. You could go completly nutz with tracking computers, If you fly armor tanked ships like me then you dont need to worry about mid slot tanks and since they are never going to get into web range you dont even need to fit them or a scrammer. However if all your mining and other activities are now inside Hidden exploration locations like me (honestly with what you find in them its not worth doing anything else) then you dont even need to worry about nano-ships. In fact you'll be happy if they make an appearance as their MWD will not work.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.02.09 18:45:00 - [779] Edited by: Nicocat on 09/02/2007 18:42:56 Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: Christopher Dalran as for using close range weapons thats the whole point, the nano battleships use their speed to stay OUT of web range and inside scrammer range. If you have a blaster that can hit at 15-20km i would realy like to get one of those. However are you suggesting that the signature radius of the ship is somewhere around 20km actually considering you inside the ship? I've got to admit i never thought blasters would ever work at that range but i will ask some corpies to help me check and see. Neutron Blaster Mega with NULL. Ever Tried? Or even Antimatter... Armageddon with MegaPulse. Megathron with some tracking mods and 350mm rails II (nearly lost my 7km/s nanophoon to this). Tempest with AC's falloff is like close to 30km with barrage, and with EMP it has enough falloff still to easily kill nanoship before it kills you. I think when people think "I can't defend against Nanophoons," they're flying ravens 9 times out of 10. At least, that's what populates our KB nowadays. Also, medium rails hurt nanoships. So do medium missiles. And, as stated, heavy guns with some tracking comps will wreck one pretty good. Stupid geddon nearly nuked me... Edit: Oh, and the range to hit for many nanoships is more like 25-28km, since they often fit faction disruptors. I know I certainly do. Keeps me out of counter-nos range ;) ---------------------------- Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY Down with alts! One character per account per IP!
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat	Posted - 2007.02.09 19:59:00 - [780] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 09/02/2007 17:05:04 Originally by: Tom Gunn The argument that a ship is overpowered because it can warp away so easily is somewhat invalid because you would also have to apply to all other classes of ships that have just as easy time disengaging - not limited to fast attack ships like inteceptors, vagabonds but also ship types such as snipers who with a planned out set of safe spots can also disengage with no risk if the battle looks bad. Problem here is that all these ships have other drawbacks. Snipers will die horribly if they jump into a gatecamp, also have low dps - lower than a nanoBS - and no nos and cannot stop a target from warping away on their own. Ceptors have even less dps and only a minimal HP buffer and are more vulnerable to nos. Force recons also have low dps and outside the pilgrim no nos. And are easier to lock down when they engage a target (especially the pilgrim, since it has no range bonus). Vagas dps, nos and hitpoint buffer is also below that of nanoBSs. I've a hard time believing that a sniperthron has less dps than a nanophoon (7xT2 425mm vs 4 T2 torps), i'd need to see numbers to believe that. They do of course not carry a 20km scrambler because by their nature have no need for it - they do have the benefit of blowing ships up without the defender ever getting in range to target them. Of course they are easy prey if they are engaged at point blank range, but thats just part of their role and 9/10 times due to pilot error or laziness to switch safe spots. Ceptors cost a fraction of a price of a BS, so sure they have less hp, but they do fly twice as fast (with equivalent fittings and implants, inties can reach well in excess of 10-12km m/s), making them untrackable and unhittable by anything except another frigate. They have a weakness when nos'd but at the same time can carry a micro cap injector to ensure they don't get sucked dry and made helpless by a hvy nos. Vaga's are a middle ground between an inty and nanophoon, its ultimately a fast attack cruiser so its a no brainer that its armament and durability is less than a BS - but i'd argue thats exactly how it should be. As for Force recons, they are one of the few ships able to take down a nano BS 1 vs 1.

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