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Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat	Posted - 2007.02.08 15:44:00 - [721] I've no problem with the speeds of nano-ships, the agility ? maybe that needs some consideration, but what I believe needs to change is the additional power granted to them by 'NOS' weaponary. Fast moving ships should be have very weak 'staying' power, they should be hard to hit (until webbed), they should be able to dictate range they should have the benefit of being able to disengage from combat more easily than a tanked battleship - these are the benefits of maneuvorability on a battlefield.. What they should not be able to do is kill a similar class of vessel that is tanked out to be slow moving and have a shield/armour tank fitted. They should be able to harry it, keep it pinned for a short period of time, perhaps long enough for support to arrive, but after about a minute of combat, the tanked ship should be in a position to forice the nano ship to disengage. By Making NOS's affectiveness worsen at higher speeds, so your 250m/s domi will still drain as much as it does, but when it goes 4k m/s its NOS's are severely weakened. You could also reduce NOS affectiveness based on size category of a ship (hvy nos vs small ship would be alot weaker) This will make a tanked BS practically immune to the nos effect of nano ships. It will also mean inteceptors are able to chase down and land a web on their target without being drained dry by a nano NOS ship in 1 pulse (they'd get the benefit of being small and also the fact their target is fast moving and has additional penalties to their nos). Sure the inty should get drained unless its fitted with small nos itself, but it should be able to hold the nano-ship a short time, long enough for allies to maybe get closer to it to bring their higher cap webs & scramblers to aid. It brings some danger to flying a nano-ship
Marc Zhorr White Wolves Defence league The OSS	Posted - 2007.02.08 15:55:00 - [722] Edited by: Marc Zhorr on 08/02/2007 15:53:42 nvm
Marc Zhorr White Wolves Defence league The OSS	Posted - 2007.02.08 15:55:00 - [723] Edited by: Marc Zhorr on 08/02/2007 15:53:42 nvm
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:13:00 - [724] Edited by: Shyalud on 08/02/2007 16:18:09 Edited by: Shyalud on 08/02/2007 16:14:35 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 07/02/2007 20:07:52 Originally by: Shyalud Well, if he's nano/stabbed out, then his armor is minimal...there's a weaknes. Typhoon base armor + shield: 11680 Claw base armor + shield: 739 vaga base armor + shield: 2990 Come again? NanoBS = similar speed. WAY more hitpoint buffer. WAY more nos + dps. . Good grief, this argumant can be used to say that a ceptor should never be used to tackle anything. 1 vs 1, you'd have to be a moron to go against a BS in a ceptor. But in a gate camp, hunting pack, etc...different story. Originally by: MrTripps Originally by: Shyalud If you can't fit a ceptor to catch a nano-bs then you need to run away from him. Still haven't read the thread, huh? If you had you would have seen several posts that describe why this will not work on the types of ships we are talking about. And, really, drop the ad hominem. This isn't about one player, but the architecture of the game. Listen Mr. Pompous...you can warp out. Him being in a nanoship or not, if you can't win...leave. As far as ad hominem (misused) and...pot, kettle, black. The "you" in my statment wasn't used to talk about 1 particular person, or even the person I was replying to. Replace you with them, anyone, someone...doesn't matter. Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:13:00 - [725] Edited by: Shyalud on 08/02/2007 16:18:09 Edited by: Shyalud on 08/02/2007 16:14:35 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 07/02/2007 20:07:52 Originally by: Shyalud Well, if he's nano/stabbed out, then his armor is minimal...there's a weaknes. Typhoon base armor + shield: 11680 Claw base armor + shield: 739 vaga base armor + shield: 2990 Come again? NanoBS = similar speed. WAY more hitpoint buffer. WAY more nos + dps. . Good grief, this argumant can be used to say that a ceptor should never be used to tackle anything. 1 vs 1, you'd have to be a moron to go against a BS in a ceptor. But in a gate camp, hunting pack, etc...different story. Originally by: MrTripps Originally by: Shyalud If you can't fit a ceptor to catch a nano-bs then you need to run away from him. Still haven't read the thread, huh? If you had you would have seen several posts that describe why this will not work on the types of ships we are talking about. And, really, drop the ad hominem. This isn't about one player, but the architecture of the game. Listen Mr. Pompous...you can warp out. Him being in a nanoship or not, if you can't win...leave. As far as ad hominem (misused) and...pot, kettle, black. The "you" in my statment wasn't used to talk about 1 particular person, or even the person I was replying to. Replace you with them, anyone, someone...doesn't matter. Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:32:00 - [726] Well becose this flaming is endles an no simple solution has been found I bring here my proposal: SPEED MASS THRUST BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:52:00 - [727] Originally by: Shyalud Good grief, this argumant can be used to say that a ceptor should never be used to tackle anything. 1 vs 1, you'd have to be a moron to go against a BS in a ceptor. But in a gate camp, hunting pack, etc...different story. Not really. And if nanoBS would only be able to tackle and had only ceptor DPS people would not complain about them. The point is that they have more dps, more nos and a higher hitpoint buffer than ceptors (or vagas, for that matter) while having similar speeds. They do not have a "weak tank" - compared to other ships with similar speed their tank is insane. And if you now want to answer that it is not compareable because they are BSs and the other ships not, why do they then achieve the speed of those ships?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:52:00 - [728] Originally by: Shyalud Good grief, this argumant can be used to say that a ceptor should never be used to tackle anything. 1 vs 1, you'd have to be a moron to go against a BS in a ceptor. But in a gate camp, hunting pack, etc...different story. Not really. And if nanoBS would only be able to tackle and had only ceptor DPS people would not complain about them. The point is that they have more dps, more nos and a higher hitpoint buffer than ceptors (or vagas, for that matter) while having similar speeds. They do not have a "weak tank" - compared to other ships with similar speed their tank is insane. And if you now want to answer that it is not compareable because they are BSs and the other ships not, why do they then achieve the speed of those ships?
Father Weebles North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:56:00 - [729] Originally by: Tom Gunn I've no problem with the speeds of nano-ships, the agility ? maybe that needs some consideration, but what I believe needs to change is the additional power granted to them by 'NOS' weaponary. Fast moving ships should be have very weak 'staying' power, they should be hard to hit (until webbed), they should be able to dictate range they should have the benefit of being able to disengage from combat more easily than a tanked battleship - these are the benefits of maneuvorability on a battlefield.. What they should not be able to do is kill a similar class of vessel that is tanked out to be slow moving and have a shield/armour tank fitted. They should be able to harry it, keep it pinned for a short period of time, perhaps long enough for support to arrive, but after about a minute of combat, the tanked ship should be in a position to forice the nano ship to disengage. By Making NOS's affectiveness worsen at higher speeds, so your 250m/s domi will still drain as much as it does, but when it goes 4k m/s its NOS's are severely weakened. You could also reduce NOS affectiveness based on size category of a ship (hvy nos vs small ship would be alot weaker) This will make a tanked BS practically immune to the nos effect of nano ships. It will also mean inteceptors are able to chase down and land a web on their target without being drained dry by a nano NOS ship in 1 pulse (they'd get the benefit of being small and also the fact their target is fast moving and has additional penalties to their nos). Sure the inty should get drained unless its fitted with small nos itself, but it should be able to hold the nano-ship a short time, long enough for allies to maybe get closer to it to bring their higher cap webs & scramblers to aid. It brings some danger to flying a nano-ship agreed "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
Father Weebles North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.08 16:56:00 - [730] Originally by: Tom Gunn I've no problem with the speeds of nano-ships, the agility ? maybe that needs some consideration, but what I believe needs to change is the additional power granted to them by 'NOS' weaponary. Fast moving ships should be have very weak 'staying' power, they should be hard to hit (until webbed), they should be able to dictate range they should have the benefit of being able to disengage from combat more easily than a tanked battleship - these are the benefits of maneuvorability on a battlefield.. What they should not be able to do is kill a similar class of vessel that is tanked out to be slow moving and have a shield/armour tank fitted. They should be able to harry it, keep it pinned for a short period of time, perhaps long enough for support to arrive, but after about a minute of combat, the tanked ship should be in a position to forice the nano ship to disengage. By Making NOS's affectiveness worsen at higher speeds, so your 250m/s domi will still drain as much as it does, but when it goes 4k m/s its NOS's are severely weakened. You could also reduce NOS affectiveness based on size category of a ship (hvy nos vs small ship would be alot weaker) This will make a tanked BS practically immune to the nos effect of nano ships. It will also mean inteceptors are able to chase down and land a web on their target without being drained dry by a nano NOS ship in 1 pulse (they'd get the benefit of being small and also the fact their target is fast moving and has additional penalties to their nos). Sure the inty should get drained unless its fitted with small nos itself, but it should be able to hold the nano-ship a short time, long enough for allies to maybe get closer to it to bring their higher cap webs & scramblers to aid. It brings some danger to flying a nano-ship agreed "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.08 17:08:00 - [731] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Shyalud Good grief, this argumant can be used to say that a ceptor should never be used to tackle anything. 1 vs 1, you'd have to be a moron to go against a BS in a ceptor. But in a gate camp, hunting pack, etc...different story. Not really. And if nanoBS would only be able to tackle and had only ceptor DPS people would not complain about them. The point is that they have more dps, more nos and a higher hitpoint buffer than ceptors (or vagas, for that matter) while having similar speeds. They do not have a "weak tank" - compared to other ships with similar speed their tank is insane. And if you now want to answer that it is not compareable because they are BSs and the other ships not, why do they then achieve the speed of those ships? I just don't agree with this concept except that a BS should not have the agility of the smaller ship, and that it should be easier to hit then the smaller ship, even at equal speeds. I.E. If (on earth) an Elephant and an Antelope were running at the same speed (a stretch, I know) it would be easier to hit the Elephant then the Antelope simply due to it's size. In space, the size of an object doesn't dictate it's speed. I agree that it should take longer for a BS to reach higher speeds, and that it should not be able to manuever as quickly. Game mechanics should, and I think do, make it easier to hit the bs at the same speed as a smaller ship travelling at that speed. Make sense? Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.02.08 17:58:00 - [732] You know, frankly, I gotta say that I'm enjoying all the fuss nanoships are creating now. I used them before iStabs made them common, and I'm going to continue to use them when they're nerfed. I just love hearing people complain and whine when they're killed by an "exploting interceptor BS." It only makes it better if you bump haulers and slow, stabbed BSes while you kill them; the whining only multiplies from there. They're effective and make people cry, and that's good enough for me. ;) ---------------------------- Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY Down with alts! One character per account per IP!
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.08 18:08:00 - [733] Originally by: Nicocat You know, frankly, I gotta say that I'm enjoying all the fuss nanoships are creating now. I used them before iStabs made them common, and I'm going to continue to use them when they're nerfed. I just love hearing people complain and whine when they're killed by an "exploting interceptor BS." It only makes it better if you bump haulers and slow, stabbed BSes while you kill them; the whining only multiplies from there. They're effective and make people cry, and that's good enough for me. ;) I guess, in the end, it all boils down to that. Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.08 18:39:00 - [734] Originally by: Shyalud I just don't agree with this concept except that a BS should not have the agility of the smaller ship, and that it should be easier to hit then the smaller ship, even at equal speeds. I.E. If (on earth) an Elephant and an Antelope were running at the same speed (a stretch, I know) it would be easier to hit the Elephant then the Antelope simply due to it's size. In space, the size of an object doesn't dictate it's speed. I agree that it should take longer for a BS to reach higher speeds, and that it should not be able to manuever as quickly. Game mechanics should, and I think do, make it easier to hit the bs at the same speed as a smaller ship travelling at that speed. Make sense? It's not about logic, it's about balance. The latter is always more important in eve than the first (also, as a sidenote, the "space" physics in eve behave more like a underwater simulator). When you have a certain ship and/or setup which has a far greater cost/benefit ratio than everything else it leads to a homogenization where everyone and their alt will use these setups because they are simply so much better than any alternatives. Which was seen pretty clearly with ECM or gankgeddons. Which is bad for the game. To repeat what I have said multiple times already in this htread, pre-kali nanophoons were already a pretty viaable setup. They were strong in the right hands, but not so strong that you would laugh at anyone who was using another typhoonsetup. Basically, their were not overpowered or underpowered but pretty balanced. With kali and rigs/instabs their main strength - speed - got a 60% boost. Their counters remains virtually unchanged. What doyou get when you boost a balanced setup significantly and leave it's counters alone?
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.08 18:54:00 - [735] If you didn't boost it significantly, what would be the point of introducing new content affecting ships? When I first started playing EVE there were four classes of ships...Frigs, Cruisers, Battleships, and Industrials. The first major patch (if I remember correctly) changed the speed of these classes and in doing pretty much eliminated the role of the cruiser. It's speed being not much better then a Battleship and it's Damage output considerably less. Since, there have been more additions in the cruiser class then in any other (someone may prove me wrong there) to compensate for the diminished or non-existant roll of the cruiser. By making the new cruisers (TechII, etc) they revived that role. Now, considering that really only teir 1 battleships (minus the scorp) can really benifit from the nano setup, what's to say that one of the other tiers won't be altered to compensate in the near future. So, rather then removing a role, you create new ones. I smell U-HACs comming (ULtra Heavy Assault Ships) well, maybe not, but it sounds cool..... Don't nerf em, give us something new to fight them!!! Don;t go backwards, go forwards!!! (anyone think of any other euphamisms??) Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.08 19:26:00 - [736] Exept such "solutions" usually do not work. Again, take ECM. ECCM was/is a pretty good counter against it - it's problem, however, was that it was useless against anything else. Why use a specialized counter which is only good vs one thing when the item it counters is ALSO an excellent counter vs itself and is on top of this also useful vs other setups?
xHomicide Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 19:40:00 - [737] Originally by: Angelic Resolution Tested it on SiSi during DT. Hugin pilot tries to get into position, nanophoon warps away giving the huginin a few torps for it's trouble. Second time: Nanophoon fits 5 ogres, hugin locks the nanophoon down and the hugin got owned by 4 torps, 4 nos and 5 ogres. So for once the nano's didn't do a damn thing (Phoon went to 75% structure or so). Third time: Nanophoon tried the MWD + torp trick, didn't work. Launch drones, got a little bit webbed but got out of webber range. Hugin got owned by ogres + torps. Thoughts? Web, and stay in web range....its not like the huginn cant move. nanoed huginn has no issue outrunning ogres and torps. Should take ZERO damage. Time the injector correctly before you mwd cycle. ___________________________________________________ http://www.razor-eve.org/killboard/?a=kills
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:01:00 - [738] Originally by: Aramendel Exept such "solutions" usually do not work. Again, take ECM. ECCM was/is a pretty good counter against it - it's problem, however, was that it was useless against anything else. Why use a specialized counter which is only good vs one thing when the item it counters is ALSO an excellent counter vs itself and is on top of this also useful vs other setups? I agree, Things such as Sensor Boosters and enhancers should have an effect against ECM. Anything that boosts your sensor should have to be overcome. But, there is a counter to speed...several in fact...nos, and web for starters. There are bonuses to your own speed and cap. There are lots of modules that help you counter the nanophoon. IF the pilot of a nanophoon has sunk tons of isk into it to make it the fastest thing out there, then my question is why shouldn't it be the fastest thing out there? With all the t2 goodies, rigs, implants, skills and training time it takes to make this thing the fearsome "omfg-nerfit" ship that it is, there will only be a relatively small amount of folks that can build it and use it effectively. It's not as horrendous a problem as everyone seems to think. Quote: The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:01:00 - [739] Originally by: Aramendel Exept such "solutions" usually do not work. Again, take ECM. ECCM was/is a pretty good counter against it - it's problem, however, was that it was useless against anything else. Why use a specialized counter which is only good vs one thing when the item it counters is ALSO an excellent counter vs itself and is on top of this also useful vs other setups? I agree, Things such as Sensor Boosters and enhancers should have an effect against ECM. Anything that boosts your sensor should have to be overcome. But, there is a counter to speed...several in fact...nos, and web for starters. There are bonuses to your own speed and cap. There are lots of modules that help you counter the nanophoon. IF the pilot of a nanophoon has sunk tons of isk into it to make it the fastest thing out there, then my question is why shouldn't it be the fastest thing out there? With all the t2 goodies, rigs, implants, skills and training time it takes to make this thing the fearsome "omfg-nerfit" ship that it is, there will only be a relatively small amount of folks that can build it and use it effectively. It's not as horrendous a problem as everyone seems to think. Quote: The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:05:00 - [740] Did you even read what I wrote before? Webs, damps, etc are identical to pre kali. Speed is 60% higher. Te setup was balanced before without the 60% speed increase. What is balancing it now?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:05:00 - [741] Did you even read what I wrote before? Webs, damps, etc are identical to pre kali. Speed is 60% higher. Te setup was balanced before without the 60% speed increase. What is balancing it now?
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:11:00 - [742] Originally by: Aramendel Did you even read what I wrote before? Webs, damps, etc are identical to pre kali. Speed is 60% higher. Te setup was balanced before without the 60% speed increase. What is balancing it now? Originally by: Shyalud If you didn't boost it significantly, what would be the point of introducing new content affecting ships? Did you read my response? Quote: The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:11:00 - [743] Originally by: Aramendel Did you even read what I wrote before? Webs, damps, etc are identical to pre kali. Speed is 60% higher. Te setup was balanced before without the 60% speed increase. What is balancing it now? Originally by: Shyalud If you didn't boost it significantly, what would be the point of introducing new content affecting ships? Did you read my response? Quote: The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:25:00 - [744] Edited by: Aramendel on 08/02/2007 20:23:59 See post #722 The problem is that if you introduce "significant boosts" you are not increasing content but removing it. Because if you make a setup too strong you will have eventually only that setup flying around. Boosting stuff without balancing it somehow does not work.
JVol	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:43:00 - [745] Ok.. just a thought.. If a tractor beam could pull a ship in, close enough to web??
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.08 20:50:00 - [746] Originally by: Aramendel With kali and rigs/instabs their main strength - speed - got a 60% boost. Their counters remains virtually unchanged. What doyou get when you boost a balanced setup significantly and leave it's counters alone? Thank you. This is exactly my point. The average nanoBS is tough, but has a reasonable chance of getting taken down. The extreme nanophoons are damn near invincible. If one does get popped it is usually due to rare luck or pilot error. Restate: 1) The super NPs are clearly unbalanced. 2) Some small change may be needed, but they should still have their role in hit-and-run raids. 3) More then a nerf they need a more effective counter. Preferably one that does not require two months to train. Since this thread has been in tail-chasing mode for some time now I will leave it to finer minds. Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:05:00 - [747] Edited by: Shyalud on 08/02/2007 21:01:51 ok, look at it a different way. What if someone spent an equal amount of time (say a raven pilot) and money on maximizing the ship? With equal amount of money, comparable skill training (in the appropriate areas) and similar but obviously ship/systems specific implants and rigs. Would this pilot in this raven be horibly outmatched by the nanophoon? Remember, equal money spent on approriate implants, rigs, equipment and skills..... Quote: The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Ethyn	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:30:00 - [748] Originally by: Sh'irna Originally by: Forum Troll Yes, and I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that nanos are nerfed in the patch at the end of this month. Finally. It is not nanos causing the problem but inertial stabilizers. The effect of reduced mass is good but there needs to be a cap to it so that these speeds can not be done with a BS. Don't screw the effects on others ships just becuase you don't like the effects on this one. As discussed before I don't think these are hurting the game. what this requires is smarter play. If there is going to eb a nerf, just make it affect the class of ship in question. And not the ships that ARE supposed to go fast. BTW I don't feel that it is wrong for a phoon to go that fast. Ethyn GO fast or die!
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:55:00 - [749] Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 08/02/2007 21:52:48 * !IMPORTANT! * STEP BY STEP ANTI NANO/I-STAB INSTRUCTIONS This is a little trick i learned a while back while trying to hit some smaller faster frigates using my large guns durring a mission a while back and it works equally well for fast orbiting battleships moving at 3 km/s +. I;ve been debating heavily keeping this information to myself but i'm concerned nano's and i-stabs might take a swing from the nerf bat if i dont release this information. First your going to need to reduce your top speed to < 25% of your max, you turn fastest at or below these speeds. Second your going to want to make sure that you have added transversal velocity to your display, if not do it as this will tell you what chance you have to hit. After you have done that you need to manually fly your ship, your going to want to have it spin around in circle almoast as if spinning like a top. Of course its not going to spin stationary but you'll get prety close under 25% max speed. To do this you instruct your ship to fly directly backwards but 1 or 2 degrees to the side you want it to spin. Keep an eye on your targets transversal, you'll notice that if you play with your max speed you can varry the speed your ship spins (slower speed = faster spin). The goal here is to try and find a target speed that makes you spin at just the right speed to match the orbiting battleship. You should notice something interresting, your targets transversal takes a nose dive through the floor. Yes you guessed correctly, your adding the rotational velocity of your ship to your turrents causing them to actually have to track much less. Coincidentally the last movie The Last Starfighter inspired me to try this.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.02.08 21:57:00 - [750] What if missiles didn't launch if you're moving faster than their flight speed? </random thought> ---------------------------- Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY Down with alts! One character per account per IP!

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