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Imbalance ... the Nano-Inertial Battleships

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Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.07 20:01:00 - [691] Originally by: Shyalud Well, if he's nano/stabbed out, then his armor is minimal...there's a weaknes. Typhoon base armor + shield: 11680 Claw base armor + shield: 739 vaga base armor + shield: 2990 Come again? NanoBS = similar speed. WAY more hitpoint buffer. WAY more nos + dps. You might as well say that for a ship with 25000 shield and 1 armor it's "low armor is it's weakness". Quote: or, gasp fight fire with fire (read adapt) Yes, like people did with ECM. Which was so much fun when every single ship and an multispec or two fitted. Funny how "adapt" is always thrown around when we have an unbalanced setup and people run out of arguments to defend it. Always followed with a nerf for that, as seen with WCS and ECM. Plenty of "adapt" there too.
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.07 20:04:00 - [692] Originally by: Shyalud If you can't fit a ceptor to catch a nano-bs then you need to run away from him. Still haven't read the thread, huh? If you had you would have seen several posts that describe why this will not work on the types of ships we are talking about. And, really, drop the ad hominem. This isn't about one player, but the architecture of the game. Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Felix Dzerzhinsky Pirates of Destruction Union Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:03:00 - [693] I'm sure its been mentioned, and if it has not - then I will do so there. It is not the speed that makes the nano-setup so powerful, its the massive agility. Nurf the agility, and they will not be able to orbit you at such speeds. As it stands, anyone who says they are having fun with this setup likes to click on a target, click orbit, hit the nos and the mwd and shoot missles/launch drones. . .thats all it takes. to recap: nurf agility, nurf cap, and kill what little armor/shields they had to beggin with. If they are speed tanking, then make sure that the instant they mess up, they die.
SFX Bladerunner Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:45:00 - [694] wow... 23 pages of flamage up and down back and forth pro-nerfers and con-nerfers.. gg EVE Online community. my 2 cents: a corp mate of mine has a nano-phoon that goes 8km/s... he also has a crow that goes 20km/s. He uses local i-stabs and very expensive faction mwd's. stop whining about nano-bs's.. they are very isk/skill intensive to make work.. so they are allowed to be hard to catch.. just see it as a small-sized titan. (they're very expensive, and hard to catch) __________________________________________________ History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever..
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:45:00 - [695] Quote: The isk arguement is in reply to everyone saying nano-bs are low risk. Simply put, they are not, because you are putting the value of 3-4 ships on the line every time you fly one. I dont care about ISK, there is a natural balance between Protection/Firepower/Mobility and these ships simply brokes this natural laws. Yea Its BIG mistake of eve that guns weigh is ridiculus low, for example 1400mm artiliery with 1.5 tons in eve vs 15"/42 British Naval canon with 120 tons barrel only, so arment of the ship has almost zero imact to ship mass -> speed. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.07 22:23:00 - [696] And as has been said x times before, invest the same amount of money in other stuff - faction/officer weapons and/or tanks, any implants you want - and you do not get anything which has an overall equal strength as a nanosetup. It does not matetr if you look at a 300 mil or 3 bil setup, it is way more effecient than other similary priced setups. It is out of balance no matter what price.
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.08 01:15:00 - [697] Originally by: MrTripps Pay attention to the posts by Ryysa, as she knows what she is talking about. You should link to this killboard instead. On the other hand, I'm happy that the discussion is swaying towards nos nerfage, also xHomicide made some really nice points. It has been said again and again, nos is why nanoBS make ceptors/other fast ships obsolete... There's nothing like heavy nos to tell an interceptor "GET OFF ME". Also heavy NOS makes them able to speedtank all day long. I'm all for a stacking penalty on NOS, but rather no stacking penalty on neuts - so cap killer setups would be viable, and pure NOS setups would be nerfed. N.F.F. Recruitment
Koloch Amarr	Posted - 2007.02.08 01:46:00 - [698] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: MrTripps Pay attention to the posts by Ryysa, as she knows what she is talking about. You should link to this killboard instead. On the other hand, I'm happy that the discussion is swaying towards nos nerfage, also xHomicide made some really nice points. It has been said again and again, nos is why nanoBS make ceptors/other fast ships obsolete... There's nothing like heavy nos to tell an interceptor "GET OFF ME". Also heavy NOS makes them able to speedtank all day long. I'm all for a stacking penalty on NOS, but rather no stacking penalty on neuts - so cap killer setups would be viable, and pure NOS setups would be nerfed. how's that not going to kill the amarr recons?
Father Weebles North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.08 03:56:00 - [699] this will sound strage but how bout nos work fine for 10-20 seconds like normal, and after that they take your own cap to keep the nos working so nos would in effect be useless after a 1 minute and if u keep nossing your ship stops (overheated). Granted that will affect curse's and stuff but possibly they could get a bonus. just something to think about "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
Koloch Amarr	Posted - 2007.02.08 04:24:00 - [700] Originally by: Father Weebles this will sound strage but how bout nos work fine for 10-20 seconds like normal, and after that they take your own cap to keep the nos working so nos would in effect be useless after a 1 minute and if u keep nossing your ship stops (overheated). Granted that will affect curse's and stuff but possibly they could get a bonus. just something to think about first off I agree that nos needs to be fixed. having said that how does nerfing nos fix the fact that a nanoBSs are near impossible to catch? that is part of the problem people are complaining about.
Father Weebles North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.08 04:39:00 - [701] Originally by: Koloch Originally by: Father Weebles this will sound strage but how bout nos work fine for 10-20 seconds like normal, and after that they take your own cap to keep the nos working so nos would in effect be useless after a 1 minute and if u keep nossing your ship stops (overheated). Granted that will affect curse's and stuff but possibly they could get a bonus. just something to think about first off I agree that nos needs to be fixed. having said that how does nerfing nos fix the fact that a nanoBSs are near impossible to catch? that is part of the problem people are complaining about. nano-ships dont have very good damage first of all so they rely on 3-4 heavy nos to break an opponent's tank as well as feed their capictor so if they cant nos 24/7 like now then nano-ships wont be able to 1 take all the cap from their opponent and 2 wont have the cap to run an mwd for very long. "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
Angelic Resolution Arcanum Defence Forces	Posted - 2007.02.08 05:34:00 - [702] I find it amusing. People saying nanophoons and dominix's have no DPS. THEY. HAVE. DRONES. Idiots :P. 5 T2 ogres will own even a battleship in no time. Sure kill the drones.. smart and all but useless to most people as by the time you target them you're already into "screwed mode". To those saying, Ceptors, hugin and dictors. Ceptors get insta popped or light drones stuck on them. Hugin all on it's own will get raped. And dictors. Don't make me laugh. Put up with it, nano battleships are a side effect CCP never intended for and they will be nerfed. Time and patience. And to those wondering about Dev response.. notice how this thread is sticked? Means they're reading it and paying attention to what the majority of us want and what a minority want to exploit.
xHomicide Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 05:40:00 - [703] Edited by: xHomicide on 08/02/2007 05:36:38 Originally by: Angelic Resolution I find it amusing. People saying nanophoons and dominix's have no DPS. THEY. HAVE. DRONES. Idiots :P. 5 T2 ogres will own even a battleship in no time. Sure kill the drones.. smart and all but useless to most people as by the time you target them you're already into "screwed mode". To those saying, Ceptors, hugin and dictors. Ceptors get insta popped or light drones stuck on them. Hugin all on it's own will get raped. And dictors. Don't make me laugh. Put up with it, nano battleships are a side effect CCP never intended for and they will be nerfed. Time and patience. And to those wondering about Dev response.. notice how this thread is sticked? Means they're reading it and paying attention to what the majority of us want and what a minority want to exploit. There is nothing a nano-bs can do it 'rape' a hugin. Honestly, there nothing that can 'rape' a hugin period. WTF who said anything about dictors? ___________________________________________________ http://www.razor-eve.org/killboard/?a=kills
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.08 06:48:00 - [704] Originally by: Angelic Resolution Hugin all on it's own will get raped Perhaps you should read the thread better. Huginn can easily solokill a nanoBS, if it's properly fitted. N.F.F. Recruitment
Gyro DuAquin1 Tri Optimum Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.08 09:33:00 - [705] this thread is funny, too many ppl with no clue talking about things, they onley experienced in the forums. Nano ships are the hype of the month, as it was the thorax or pulse lasers on Battleships. A decent 2men gang can kill a nano bs, and it can be easily neutralized, just get ur facts a bit straight and dont just run there with torps ravens and rail megas.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 09:41:00 - [706] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 08/02/2007 04:33:11 Originally by: Koloch Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: MrTripps Pay attention to the posts by Ryysa, as she knows what she is talking about. You should link to this killboard instead. On the other hand, I'm happy that the discussion is swaying towards nos nerfage, also xHomicide made some really nice points. It has been said again and again, nos is why nanoBS make ceptors/other fast ships obsolete... There's nothing like heavy nos to tell an interceptor "GET OFF ME". Also heavy NOS makes them able to speedtank all day long. I'm all for a stacking penalty on NOS, but rather no stacking penalty on neuts - so cap killer setups would be viable, and pure NOS setups would be nerfed. how's that not going to kill the amarr recons? Simple - add a bonus to them. Quote: having said that how does nerfing nos fix the fact that a nanoBSs are near impossible to catch? that is part of the problem people are complaining about. NanoBS are not impossible to catch because of their speed. If someone spends 2bil on a nanobs + implants, you can spend 50m on a ceptor that will be able to catch up to it - speed is not the issue here. The issue is, that when a ceptor starts to catch up, the nanobs puts a nos on him, woops MWD shut off... That's the reason you can't tackle nanobs with ceptor, not because it goes too fast. With max skills/factiongear/full hg snake, your nanobs still won't go over 11km/s [no gang modules/skills/stuff, before you whine]. Whereas an inty, which will cost way less will easily attain 15k/s and more with a snake set and faction mwd. - So you see, it's not the speed that is the problem. you are correct on pointing what makes nanoships not easily counterable. But there is still some issue with speed. The issue taht the base number of low slots is more relevant than the base speed of the ship when trying to attain a speed setup. Thins should be balanced. Its much harder to make a stabber go as fast as a tphoon than wih the typhoon. That is not right. Nanos MUST be a percentage of base speed of the ships. l the matari superior base speed is a ridiculowsly pahethic advantage, because it can be completely negated if the enemy ship has 1 more low slots (as any ammarian and most gallente have on same class) Nos must: never take out the last 5 or 10% of capacitor form target and form this point on they should d rain the cap of the NOS ship. Other alternative is the nos stack nerf. Or reduction on Heavy NOS range. Or a signature value to nos..... If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
eXtas Kemono. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 10:39:00 - [707] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: Angelic Resolution Hugin all on it's own will get raped Perhaps you should read the thread better. Huginn can easily solokill a nanoBS, if it's properly fitted. yepp I totaly agree, even without faction mods for u whiners :) 2007.02.07 10:15 Victim: xxxxxx Alliance: xxxxx Corp: xxxxxxxxxxx Destroyed: Dominix System: Lirerim Security: 0.6 Involved parties: Name: eXtas (laid the final blow) Security: 1.9 Alliance: Privateer Alliance Corp: Kemono. Ship: Huginn Weapon: Valkyrie II Destroyed items: X-Large Shield Booster II Heavy 'Knave' I Energy Drain Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Gist B-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I Local Hull Conversion Overdrive Injector I Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I (Cargo) Local Hull Conversion Nanofiber Structure I (Cargo) Local Hull Conversion Inertial Stabilizers I (Cargo) Fried Interface Circuit, Qty: 117 (Cargo) Alloyed Tritanium Bar, Qty: 81 (Cargo) Hornet II, Qty: 2 (Drone Bay) Vespa II, Qty: 5 (Drone Bay) Berserker I, Qty: 4 (Drone Bay) Ogre I, Qty: 2 (Drone Bay) Hammerhead II (Drone Bay) Valkyrie II (Drone Bay)
Baudolino Gallente Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.02.08 10:53:00 - [708] All these whines are extremely annoying. Not because they`re mostly uncreative and based on lacking orgnizational and PvP skills, but.. because the share weight of uncreative, can`t-play-the-game-without-a-manual kind of players cries for justice and equality and sameness, might actually change something that doesn`t need changing. Both nano domi and nano phoon can be handled. Nossing ships can be handled. Someone said that you can`t beat those ships unless you`re prepared- lol.. You will not beat any of the ships i fly unless you`re prepared. IF YOU`RE NOT PREPARED- DON`T GET CAUGHT! in 99% of all instances- dying is your own fault.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.08 11:33:00 - [709] Edited by: Aramendel on 08/02/2007 11:33:29 Originally by: Ryysa Huginn can easily solokill a nanoBS, if it's properly fitted. Correct. However, for example any properly fitted curse can also kill any non-nano BS (2bil+ officer fitted ones included). So it's not like that nanoBSs have an unique vulnerablility here. There are still far too few counters for them comapred to other ships. (I know you weren't implying that, but comments like this can easily be twisted into that. Like "See - it can be killed, it's fine.") Originally by: Baudolino Both nano domi and nano phoon can be handled. Nossing ships can be handled. Yes and no. They are not more difficult to counter than any other solo BS. But neither are they easier to counter. But the core difference is: When you counter a non-nano BS this way you kill it in 90% of all situations. When you counter a nanoBS it flees in 90% of all situations. Same performance, less risk. This is what makes them imbalanced.
Angelic Resolution Arcanum Defence Forces	Posted - 2007.02.08 12:57:00 - [710] Tested it on SiSi during DT. Hugin pilot tries to get into position, nanophoon warps away giving the huginin a few torps for it's trouble. Second time: Nanophoon fits 5 ogres, hugin locks the nanophoon down and the hugin got owned by 4 torps, 4 nos and 5 ogres. So for once the nano's didn't do a damn thing (Phoon went to 75% structure or so). Third time: Nanophoon tried the MWD + torp trick, didn't work. Launch drones, got a little bit webbed but got out of webber range. Hugin got owned by ogres + torps. Thoughts?
here'n'there	Posted - 2007.02.08 13:05:00 - [711] i wonder, if MWD always add mass (50000000kg) when used, as it do now..
Trind2222 Amarr Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.02.08 13:44:00 - [712] Originally by: Baudolino All these whines are extremely annoying. Not because they`re mostly uncreative and based on lacking orgnizational and PvP skills, but.. because the share weight of uncreative, can`t-play-the-game-without-a-manual kind of players cries for justice and equality and sameness, might actually change something that doesn`t need changing. Both nano domi and nano phoon can be handled. Nossing ships can be handled. Someone said that you can`t beat those ships unless you`re prepared- lol.. You will not beat any of the ships i fly unless you`re prepared. IF YOU`RE NOT PREPARED- DON`T GET CAUGHT! in 99% of all instances- dying is your own fault. so you are saying that i fly my cruser wrong that my interceptor is faster then a nano batlle ship that my sniper batle ship that dosent hit a noano ship becose most of us are a noob and you are not. This is not whine this is about balance.
eXtas Kemono. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 14:10:00 - [713] Originally by: Angelic Resolution Tested it on SiSi during DT. Hugin pilot tries to get into position, nanophoon warps away giving the huginin a few torps for it's trouble. Second time: Nanophoon fits 5 ogres, hugin locks the nanophoon down and the hugin got owned by 4 torps, 4 nos and 5 ogres. So for once the nano's didn't do a damn thing (Phoon went to 75% structure or so). Third time: Nanophoon tried the MWD + torp trick, didn't work. Launch drones, got a little bit webbed but got out of webber range. Hugin got owned by ogres + torps. Thoughts? get a new huginn pilot or try to refit the ship... a) use a setup that dont use cap so u dont care if u are nossed (webbers use 3 cap so they still work fine with 4 heavy nos on u and guns dont use cap) or b) use a injector c) use dampners so he cant nos u and heavy drones are slow as f*** anyway and huginn is good at poping them if u fail to make a setup that can outrun them (huginn can go over 5km/s without gang) d) use faction scrambler and he cant do anything, if u fail to tank the dmg u need to rethink youre setup
AmarrCitizen040606	Posted - 2007.02.08 14:25:00 - [714] given nano ships are harder to tank and have their own way of flying them. i do not accept the high risk arguement though, was the same with gankageddons and they got nerfed as well although i'd rather see the gankageddon back than the nano stuff removed
Broka Sampson	Posted - 2007.02.08 14:27:00 - [715] I like the idea of speed tanking (in certain situations), but what about when they are running your warp bubble. Are webbers the ONLY way of blowing them up? Are there other tactics someone wouldn't mind naming that help with such a scenario. ECM isn't going to help much if they are just running the gate; any help is appreciated.
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.08 14:32:00 - [716] Originally by: Broka Sampson I like the idea of speed tanking (in certain situations), but what about when they are running your warp bubble. Are webbers the ONLY way of blowing them up? Are there other tactics someone wouldn't mind naming that help with such a scenario. ECM isn't going to help much if they are just running the gate; any help is appreciated. Advice: Learn to PvP, Gatecamping is not PvP, not in my book at least, it's BvP, Blob vs Player. If the ship went back to the gate and went away, means that you successfully prevented it from entering your system. N.F.F. Recruitment
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.08 14:35:00 - [717] Originally by: Angelic Resolution Tested it on SiSi during DT. Hugin pilot tries to get into position, nanophoon warps away giving the huginin a few torps for it's trouble. Second time: Nanophoon fits 5 ogres, hugin locks the nanophoon down and the hugin got owned by 4 torps, 4 nos and 5 ogres. So for once the nano's didn't do a damn thing (Phoon went to 75% structure or so). Third time: Nanophoon tried the MWD + torp trick, didn't work. Launch drones, got a little bit webbed but got out of webber range. Hugin got owned by ogres + torps. Thoughts? I'll be able to fly huginn in about a week, we can do 1v1, You bring nanoship of choice, I bring huginn. I am 99% sure you will die before i reach half shield. Hell, it's possible to beat nanoships with vagabond, or acpest easily... just that they'll run away once they are losing. N.F.F. Recruitment
Melicien Tetro Gallente FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.08 14:47:00 - [718] I love nanos/inerts. Ha. I said it. I see no problem with such a high risk, caution geared style of play to be hit with the nerf bat, especially when you put all your ship on the line to play like that. It seems to me that the only people who disagree with them are people who don't think they're smart enough to not get victimized by them. These people also tend to be the same people who want every battle to play out civil war style, with big blobs pew-pewing at each other until one side is dead or gives up. I also think that nanos and inerts are really what matar needed. Hit and run guerrilla fighters, hard to catch, but sort of meat if they get caught. Also sort of solidifies their position as shield tankers, wouldn't you think? I don't think anyone should QQ about getting eaten by a nano-ship one on one. It's funny that we hear people talking about CCPs horrible plots to turn eve into a fleet combat game, and to stamp piracy, but when I see what looks to me like some of the biggest love that the small gang/solo pirate has ever gotten, everyone gets up in arms. You know a good way to counter nano ships? Bring one with you. I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be damned if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ******* nerf. True story.
Broka Sampson	Posted - 2007.02.08 14:56:00 - [719] Originally by: Ryysa Originally by: Broka Sampson I like the idea of speed tanking (in certain situations), but what about when they are running your warp bubble. Are webbers the ONLY way of blowing them up? Are there other tactics someone wouldn't mind naming that help with such a scenario. ECM isn't going to help much if they are just running the gate; any help is appreciated. Advice: Learn to PvP, Gatecamping is not PvP, not in my book at least, it's BvP, Blob vs Player. If the ship went back to the gate and went away, means that you successfully prevented it from entering your system. Ryysa It is not about PVP, it's about protecting alliance territory from people trying to enter it who do not belong there. You don't like Blob's that is fine, but that doesn't mean they are not neccessary to stem the flow of traffic in and out of a chokepoint to your territory. Anyone else got an answer?
Trind2222 Amarr Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.02.08 15:26:00 - [720] Yes all can get in to a nano ship that is not the problem the problem is that frigs and smal cuser gang will never uced agen all will train to nano ships in end you are in a game there the fast ship wins the slow ships are like don't uce slow ships they only good in big blobs all will be requierd to tran for fast ship if you not in fast ship you even you have high skill points you can froget join that corp. I don't want to see eve rueend becose unbalance if you don't have balance in agame it will be no point of palying that becose you can no longer uce the ship type you like becose evry one is ucig a ships that are so fast that you newer gona catch them becose you are in a slow ship. You may find all ways you want to conter a nano setup but in the end the nano pilot fly away safe unlles hi get in to a big blob.

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