[quote=bigbud skunkafella]

So if someone is AFK, then the only logical test is a timer test and if they are determined AFK, then bad luck to them. They can be bumped forever, even if they later come back to their keyboard.

...]the safety settings would be irrelevant regarding a fleet engagement timer , because its not making the bumper suspect .

[quote=bigbud skunkafella]

So if Mach 1 bumps for 4 1/2 minutes and then stops, only to be replaced by Mach 2, etc. then no flag will ever be produced.

The proposal as it currently stands won't achieve what is desired.

mach 1 that bumps for 4 1/2 mins then stops would still receive a timer if the freighter was unable to complete his warp cycle after 5 mins, the timer would then last for 15 minutes , meaning that mach 1 can continue bumping with the danger of having the flag activated , or withdraw to safety until the timer runs down before resuming his activities .

Yes, yes its a competitive and consequence laiden game in which:

- Someone can indefinitely (or until downtime) prevent a freighter from warping using just a bumping ship (doesn't even have to be a mach, ONI or SFI with large MWD will suffice) and a disposable aggro alt in a noob ship (!). No consequences for the bumper whatsoever.

- Having negative sec status has very limited practical consequences for a dedicated ganker char and does not limit the ability to perform ganks in hisec in any way, making sec status loss irrelevant (and consequence free)

- Killrights against ganker chars are practically useless

- Looting stuff from a ganked hauler can be made perfectly safe by using a DST or Orca and a disposable alt

Try arguing for removal/change of any of the above mechanics and you get shouted at for being a risk-averse-carebear-emergent-gameplay-hater. Oh, the irony.

Of course, under the current proposal there is also this:

One guy, being good, could just bump a highsec Capital for 5 minutes in order to deliberately gain a limited engagement with others in the fleet, and then kill them all (whether they want pvp or not) without CONCORD intervention. He can bump and go kill.

That would be great in asteroid belts where Freighters and Orcas are used as large storage. He can warp in, bump the freighter/Orca for 5 minutes when its ready to warp, gain a limited engagement with the mining barges and wipe them all out. I would hope the barges would be smart enough to warp off, but this is Eve and if we know anything about this game, it's that stupid people will do stupid things. Great way to wipe out a whole mining fleet for free.

There's a lot more logic errors to come yet with the current proposal too.

Edit:

I logged in and within 5 minutes found an example.

Here is a screenshot I just took (see date and time bottom left against the timedate of this post). In this case 2 x Procurer, 1 x Skiff with an Orca in an ice belt:

http://puu.sh/mXNCE/2fa1bb49ae.png

With the proposal, I can wait until the Orca moves, warp in and bump in. Get limited engagement and potentially kill all the barges and exhumer with no consequence, or if they are smart at least, totally shut down their mining operation that they peacefully want to conduct.

That mining fleet is normally a dozen barges/exhumers. It is small now because we are close to DT. For most of the time it is on, it is much larger. Great targets for the proposal.

worth a quote i believe ...

Why is it worth a quote?

fleet engagement flag would have to be activated by the victim of the bumping for the umpteenth time, so the above scenario could only happen if the victim chose to engage,

You have never said that, let alone umpteen times.

It still goes against CCP's principle of not propogating flags by assistance, even if it is allowed for one player to commit the rest of his fleet to a pvp situation.

That would also be a new form of Awoxing.

Join a Corp to fly a Freighter/Orca alt and then deliberately commit them to pvp flags that they don't want.

CCP not long ago nerfed awoxing. This proposal will bring it right back again (which is also on my current list of issues with the proposal, but there are more).

my whole proposal for a fleet engagement type flag contained the proviso that it would be activated by the victim . please read my posts properly if you wish me to continue responding to your ahem, constructive criticisms.

in answer to your above regarding awoxing type situations , like a suspect timer, the fleet has the option of not engaging the flagged bumper. if a fleet member chooses not to engage the bumper, then he is at no added risk, unless the bumper chooses to suicide gank him. the only person who is immediately vulnerable under my suggestion , is the capital pilot who activates the flag . the rest of the fleet would have to choose to aggress .

The bumper can engage the fleet. That's what a limited engagement is. It's an A-B flag. Both ways.

If it's not a both ways flag, then it isn't a limited engagement, it's a suspect flag; which is not possible if someone has their safety set green (that is all in the 2 links I provided earlier).

Once the awoxing alt activates the flag, the engagement goes both ways. The bumping ship (combat fit) can engage the fleet members.

It's your proposal and I'm not name calling, being abusive, nor insinuating anything about you. Every post is attempting to be constructive.

As a Freighter pilot, I have a vested interest in changes proposed to make things safer for me and it is only right to look for the pitfalls in the proposal.

This cuts straight back to the claims about double standards earlier. It's ok for one side to look for them, but apparently not the other. Disappointing.

The only option (for someone that doesn't use a webbing alt) based on the current holes in the idea as it is outlined, would be to stop hauling and stick with industry work and then get other people to haul using inflated collateral so they never lose.

So I'll end it here and just say, yes your proposal should be implemented 100% as you've explained it. It's a wonderful idea and will totally solve bumping in highsec.

Thumbs up.

look at the timer /flag as similar to a kr , but only available to the freighter pilots fleet , once activated (manually just to be clear :) ) by the freighter pilot, , the freighter pilot and bumper are able to aggress each other legally, but , just like a kr, the bumper may only defend himself against those who choose to aggress him. lets call it a ' clear my way of obstructions' right.

Oh my, such a complicated proposal to address something that may not even exist. At least one viable counter, that is capable of dealing with such a hypothetical scenario, already exists.

so ''illegally'' obstructing a law abiding pilot for a potentially unlimited amount of time with no consequences for the pilot doing the obstruction is not worthy enough of discussing proposals to balance it?

so ''illegally'' obstructing a law abiding pilot for a potentially unlimited amount of time with no consequences for the pilot doing the obstruction is not worthy enough of discussing proposals to balance it?

if your position is that these mechanics are perfectly fine as they are and there is no point discussing any proposals to change them, then you have made this perfectly clear in your previous posts. so why continue posting?

Illegal is a lie.

Daily Quac winner for the post with the most. Bullshit that is. The most bullshit rivalling the levels of JamesBeam himself.

Wear it with pride. Certificate is in the post.

yes ,b4 you feel the need to point it out - i know freighter pilots are unable to aggress .

Why do you keep on saying "so ''illegally'' obstructing a law abiding pilot for a potentially unlimited amount of time with no consequences" after being shown multiple times that its not illegal and that there are many very easy ways of getting out and/or avoiding the situation entirely?

ok, as an experiment, why don't you try going out and finding an overweight old person returning from the grocery store and repeatedly run into them at high speed to prevent them returning home, and see if the police turn up and listen to your argument that they had no right to arrest you because you haven't killed and robbed them, and were only holding them till your gang of criminal associates could arrive to do the actual robbery and murder.

then , when you have been released from custody, let me know how eve bumping mechanics as they stand are totally realistic and sensible from a logical point of view .

ok, as an experiment, why don't you try going out and finding an overweight old person returning from the grocery store and repeatedly run into them at high speed to prevent them returning home, and see if the police turn up and listen to your argument that they had no right to arrest you because you haven't killed and robbed them, and were only holding them till your gang of criminal associates could arrive to do the actual robbery and murder.

then , when you have been released from custody, let me know how eve bumping mechanics as they stand are totally realistic and sensible from a logical point of view .

ok, as an experiment, why don't you try going out and finding an overweight old person returning from the grocery store and repeatedly run into them at high speed to prevent them returning home, and see if the police turn up and listen to your argument that they had no right to arrest you because you haven't killed and robbed them, and were only holding them till your gang of criminal associates could arrive to do the actual robbery and murder.

then , when you have been released from custody, let me know how eve bumping mechanics as they stand are totally realistic and sensible from a logical point of view .

Look, as long as there is any game mechanic that may result in others becoming a legal target even if they have their safety on we will find a way to use this to kill people. Carebears are usually not really good with game mechanics, but we are and we will find a way. CCP knows this, and they will never implement something like that.

Your idea is to try to fix bumping, wich is not really an issue and by doing so you will just open a can of worms in some other part of the game. This is like thread #7567783 about bumping and there are always a ton of ideas. But they all fail and will do more harm than anything else to your own carebear friends.

Also if this really gets "fixed", what do you think will happen? A ton of free kills for you because we forget to adapt? The only thing that will happen is that you or some other carebear will be back here and cry for the next nerf.

This is a game not real life.

Again, why is this change needed when we already have a number of very effective ways to counter bumping.