Originally by: Vistilantus

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so why does jumping into a system make it easier than logging into a system?

surely neither takes priority?

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Originally by: Marcus TheMartin

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There are alot of things that are unfair in this game.

Like local which works as a big Pirate in the system alarm but I don't get a big miner in the system alarm.

Or alts for example. The list can go on

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Originally by: Roy Batty68

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Originally by: Marcus TheMartin

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There are alot of things that are unfair in this game.

Like local which works as a big Pirate in the system alarm but I don't get a big miner in the system alarm.

Or alts for example. The list can go on

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Aurora: Purple alert! Purple alert! Miners in the system!
Player: Eh?
Aurora: Purple alert...
Player: WTF ya mean, purple alert? This the ship Formerly Known as... Barney or something?
Aurora: Well I'd say red, but the bulbs out...
Player: Oh.. ok... What's with the minors then? What? I have to mind myself just because their parents cba to, hmmm... parent?
Aurora: No ya thick git. Miners not minors! Go. Get them!
Player: Ah, right! Now where they at then?
Aurora: <sigh> Look, ya spent all your isk on this silly miner alert system. If ya can't sort out the navigation yourself. Well, paddle, no... creek, yes... up it. Eh?



only a couple of movies or tv shows were ripped off in the making of this totally irrelevant post. thank you, enjoy your evening

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Originally by: Pattonator

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Originally by: Vistilantus

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so why does jumping into a system make it easier than logging into a system?

surely neither takes priority?

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Jump-ins do take priority as they are already in game. Jump-ins may face a jump queue that lasts a minute or two. It took me an hour an forty five minutes to log-in and by then we had about 40 friendlies in the system and over 650 hostiles who jumped through a gate which previously had been heavily defended.

LV and friends had over 70 cap ships in JV1 when the node crashed ready to kill any dread fleet. There were hundreds of pilots including over 100 sniping BS ready to pop any ship that had to traverse over 100km's to get out of the massive bubble defense.

GM's say they don't understand how either side could have benefited with the node crash but it is quite clear that ALL LV pilots crashed and only about 1/3 of the attacking force crashed.

It is moronic that CCP allows hostile ships to log off in a system in the first place. Not that Eve is reality but imagine that spaceships from different universes did fight. Would it make sense for an entire fleet to disappear because they are going to bed. When it is time for them to fight they just all magically reappear. Imagine that in real war.

LV has lots of enemies but we didn't think that CCP was one of them. We thought that their goal was a fair playing field for all. In this case LV held the field of battle. They reset the playing field wiping the entire defense off the map (not that it would aid the offensive force in anyway.

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Originally by: matty01

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you guys had 70 capitals and over 400 people in system, with 22 large bubbles on the gate and you thought the node would hold?

or you didn't think they'd actually jump in on you?

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Originally by: w0rmy

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Originally by: matty01

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you guys had 70 capitals and over 400 people in system, with 22 large bubbles on the gate and you thought the node would hold?

or you didn't think they'd actually jump in on you?

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Sounds like they deliberately tried to have the node crash when the hostiles jumped in

OMG haxpl0it!

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Originally by: Constantine Arcanum

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(NOTE: ANUS RELATED ANTICS NO LONGER ALLOWED UNLESS THEY ARE REALLY, REALLY FUNNY OR DEPRAVED)

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Originally by: Haas Tabris

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LV lost the fight because the adjacent node supporting M-R did NOT crash. So, as soon as the JV1V node was reset, their fleet could begin jumping into the system. The LV fleet had to go back to their login screens, log into the game, and then wait in queue to get back into the system. This gave the goonfleet an unfair advantage. It's really about that simple.

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Originally by: Fubear

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Originally by: Haas Tabris

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LV lost the fight because the adjacent node supporting M-R did NOT crash. So, as soon as the JV1V node was reset, their fleet could begin jumping into the system. The LV fleet had to go back to their login screens, log into the game, and then wait in queue to get back into the system. This gave the goonfleet an unfair advantage. It's really about that simple.

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Let me get this straight... you are now complaining that other nodes didn't crash? In that hour and a half it took for you to log in, a Goon could have logged into Jita and autopilot down to that system and jumped in. Are you then to petition that they didn't take the Jita node offline because of the battle?

The most fair method of determining the outcome of a battle like this is to let things play out as they did. Both sides got hit equally with the crash, both had equal chances of logging back in, and I assume jump-ins had the same lag or a queue or something.

If you got your stuff back, the whole fight would have to be done over and the same thing would just happen again. The battle took place, **** happened, you lost, get over it and stop crying all over the forums already!

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Originally by: Pattonator

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1) Almost every LV pilot tried logging on for a minimum of an hour and a half. Granted many of our European members couldn't go much longer than that as it was already very early in the morning for them. We had some members who never got logged on after five hours.

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Originally by: Aileen Wuornos

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Ya know, I was in the first wave of t1 frigs that you shot up 'with out too much lag'. Well sorry to rain on your fraps but none, and I mean none of our screens loaded before we were shot to bits.

So, just count the second wave as calling us even. You got spanked by more ships and all you can do is cry about it.

More fighting less crying!!

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Originally by: w0rmy

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Originally by: HankMurphy

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B) place limits on systems with large fleet battles going on. this would require dev intervention to ensure each side gets relatively equal numbers for the battle, rest will be moved outside of combat area (jump or two away) and gates in would be locked till the dust settled

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So, if you can only muster 350 pilots, and your opposition can muster 1000, CCP should step in and adjust things so there is an even fight?

Youre not serious are you? This is some kinda retarded joke?

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Originally by: Hellown

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We never said anything about a fair fight, we just wanted a CHANCE to fight. with our whole force unable to log in for 1-2 hrs while the swarm were jumping ships in from the formaly heavily defended gate there was only 1 outcome possible.
IF we had of been able to defend with the force we had, the capitals we had ready, the titan in system (built one ready to fire DD) who knows what the outcome would of been, but atleast we would of been able to do SOMETHING.

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Originally by: Kyria Timeyu

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The outcome was set in stone. 300 vs 1000 is not winnable. Period.

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Originally by: Kyria Timeyu

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Originally by: Hellown

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We never said anything about a fair fight, we just wanted a CHANCE to fight. with our whole force unable to log in for 1-2 hrs while the swarm were jumping ships in from the formaly heavily defended gate there was only 1 outcome possible.
IF we had of been able to defend with the force we had, the capitals we had ready, the titan in system (built one ready to fire DD) who knows what the outcome would of been, but atleast we would of been able to do SOMETHING.

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The outcome was set in stone. 300 vs 1000 is not winnable. Period. The only change would have been that you had lost every single one of your ships instead of saving over 2/3rds of them because they were offline.

The destruction was set in stone when BoB pulled back to Fountain, and your directors screwed up the strontium timing.

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Originally by: Kyria Timeyu

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Originally by: Hellown

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We never said anything about a fair fight, we just wanted a CHANCE to fight. with our whole force unable to log in for 1-2 hrs while the swarm were jumping ships in from the formaly heavily defended gate there was only 1 outcome possible.
IF we had of been able to defend with the force we had, the capitals we had ready, the titan in system (built one ready to fire DD) who knows what the outcome would of been, but atleast we would of been able to do SOMETHING.

---

The outcome was set in stone. 300 vs 1000 is not winnable. Period. The only change would have been that you had lost every single one of your ships instead of saving over 2/3rds of them because they were offline.

The destruction was set in stone when BoB pulled back to Fountain, and your directors screwed up the strontium timing.

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Originally by: Ductoris

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At this rate I'm going to ask for a BOB sub-forum.

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Originally by: Haas Tabris

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Ahh, can't post GM eve-mails in the forums. Roger that.

CCP pretty much said they aren't going to do anything about the JV1V node crash and the LV loss of a titan under construction. See orignal post here:

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=477023

The GM claimed, in his evemail response to the LV petition, that the node crash is a fair tactic because both sides will have the same problem logging back into the crashed node.

I would like to put forth that this is not quite true.

LV lost the fight because the adjacent node supporting M-R did NOT crash. So, as soon as the JV1V node was reset, their fleet could begin jumping into the system. The LV fleet had to go back to their login screens, log into the game, and then wait in queue to get back into the system. This gave the goonfleet an unfair advantage. It's really about that simple.

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Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn

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Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 21/02/2007 00:10:27
LV accumulated SO MUCH ennemies the last year and lost SO MUCH allies in the last year that LV can't face what they created.

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Originally by: Kyria Timeyu

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Originally by: Hellown

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We never said anything about a fair fight, we just wanted a CHANCE to fight. with our whole force unable to log in for 1-2 hrs while the swarm were jumping ships in from the formaly heavily defended gate there was only 1 outcome possible.
IF we had of been able to defend with the force we had, the capitals we had ready, the titan in system (built one ready to fire DD) who knows what the outcome would of been, but atleast we would of been able to do SOMETHING.

---

The outcome was set in stone. 300 vs 1000 is not winnable. Period. The only change would have been that you had lost every single one of your ships instead of saving over 2/3rds of them because they were offline.

The destruction was set in stone when BoB pulled back to Fountain, and your directors screwed up the strontium timing.

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Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn

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Count the frig one side, count the frigs the other side. Lotterry....

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Originally by: w0rmy

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Originally by: HankMurphy

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B) place limits on systems with large fleet battles going on. this would require dev intervention to ensure each side gets relatively equal numbers for the battle, rest will be moved outside of combat area (jump or two away) and gates in would be locked till the dust settled

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So, if you can only muster 350 pilots, and your opposition can muster 1000, CCP should step in and adjust things so there is an even fight?

Youre not serious are you? This is some kinda retarded joke?

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Originally by: Tobias Sjodin

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"It's not fair!" :(

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Quote:

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Since the players themselves have no idea what systems reside on what nodes, you cant hold them responsible for any 'unfair advantage' gained by a node crash.

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Originally by: Pattonator

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1) Where do you idiots get 300 vs. 1000? LV and friends was just about 450 in JV1 and we had well over 100 fighters assigned and we held the high ground. RAGOONS did not have 1,000 until the put out the word that JV1 was a free for all. They might have had 700 at the time that the node crashed but they knew that there was no way that 700 would appear all at once in the system. So figure with fighters we have about 550 or so with a lot of snipers and T2 ships vs. waves of about 200 jumping in at a time of primarily T1 ships that are stuck in warp bubbles.

Please don't take my tone as whining but just ****ed off at CCP. I don't pay for this account only to crash before a major battle and then getting screwed out of our valuable assets. The only reason why CCP won't step up is because Goons are already whiners and they don't think they can stand any more of their whining.

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Originally by: Pattonator

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1) Where do you idiots get 300 vs. 1000? LV and friends was just about 450 in JV1 and we had well over 100 fighters assigned and we held the high ground. RAGOONS did not have 1,000 until the put out the word that JV1 was a free for all. They might have had 700 at the time that the node crashed but they knew that there was no way that 700 would appear all at once in the system. So figure with fighters we have about 550 or so with a lot of snipers and T2 ships vs. waves of about 200 jumping in at a time of primarily T1 ships that are stuck in warp bubbles.

Please don't take my tone as whining but just ****ed off at CCP. I don't pay for this account only to crash before a major battle and then getting screwed out of our valuable assets. The only reason why CCP won't step up is because Goons are already whiners and they don't think they can stand any more of their whining.

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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This game is crap right now...

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Originally by: Pattonator

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1) Where do you idiots get 300 vs. 1000? LV and friends was just about 450 in JV1 and we had well over 100 fighters assigned and we held the high ground. RAGOONS did not have 1,000 until the put out the word that JV1 was a free for all. They might have had 700 at the time that the node crashed but they knew that there was no way that 700 would appear all at once in the system. So figure with fighters we have about 550 or so with a lot of snipers and T2 ships vs. waves of about 200 jumping in at a time of primarily T1 ships that are stuck in warp bubbles.

Please don't take my tone as whining but just ****ed off at CCP. I don't pay for this account only to crash before a major battle and then getting screwed out of our valuable assets. The only reason why CCP won't step up is because Goons are already whiners and they don't think they can stand any more of their whining.

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Originally by: Osiris Warp

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I'll bet other ppl are just as annoyed including Goon they probably would have wanted more kills :D

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Originally by: Serilla

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Edited by: Serilla on 21/02/2007 01:58:43

Originally by: DarkMatter

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This game is crap right now...

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You'd think from all this whining that this was something new, but its not, everyone experiences it and has to adapt. It would be lovely if there was no lag or node crashes but there is lag, and given large enough fleets, node crashes. So what can you do about it? Either boycott fleet battles in 0.0 territorial wars (lol), or give it your best and hope that you prevail.

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Originally by: Serilla

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Edited by: Serilla on 21/02/2007 01:58:43

Originally by: DarkMatter

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This game is crap right now...

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You'd think from all this whining that this was something new, but its not, everyone experiences it and has to adapt. It would be lovely if there was no lag or node crashes but there is lag, and given large enough fleets, node crashes. So what can you do about it? Either boycott fleet battles in 0.0 territorial wars (lol), or give it your best and hope that you prevail.

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Hey, you know what, how 'bout we don't have to adapt to play a steaming pile of ****?

Hou 'bout that for a change???

There should be no need to "hope" you prevail, get lucky and get the login priority, blah blah blah... That's a load of ****...

I'd like to see CCP get their ******* game working once in a ******* while, how about that?

Goons may be having fun breaking nodes, but seriously, c'mon, you don't want the game to function as it should?, you want to adapt to a broken game?

I've been playing for a long time, and this really sucks right now... CCP should be ashamed of this **** performance... If they are not, then yeah, better learn to adapt or go play something else, cause they'll see no need to change it if ppl just accept to recieve **** for their monthly payments...

I don't care about losing ships & whatnot, part of the game. I do care about not being able to even get in the fight when your enemy has log-in priortity and can *****your home system while you look at a black screen... That's total ****... Why bother?

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Quote:

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Like I said there's 2 options, either you curl up in the fetal postition and gtfo of 0.0 or you keep fighting despite the server performance

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Originally by: Serilla

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Originally by: Serilla

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Edited by: Serilla on 21/02/2007 01:58:43

Originally by: DarkMatter

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This game is crap right now...

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You'd think from all this whining that this was something new, but its not, everyone experiences it and has to adapt. It would be lovely if there was no lag or node crashes but there is lag, and given large enough fleets, node crashes. So what can you do about it? Either boycott fleet battles in 0.0 territorial wars (lol), or give it your best and hope that you prevail.

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Hey, you know what, how 'bout we don't have to adapt to play a steaming pile of ****?

Hou 'bout that for a change???

There should be no need to "hope" you prevail, get lucky and get the login priority, blah blah blah... That's a load of ****...

I'd like to see CCP get their ******* game working once in a ******* while, how about that?

Goons may be having fun breaking nodes, but seriously, c'mon, you don't want the game to function as it should?, you want to adapt to a broken game?

I've been playing for a long time, and this really sucks right now... CCP should be ashamed of this **** performance... If they are not, then yeah, better learn to adapt or go play something else, cause they'll see no need to change it if ppl just accept to recieve **** for their monthly payments...

I don't care about losing ships & whatnot, part of the game. I do care about not being able to even get in the fight when your enemy has log-in priortity and can *****your home system while you look at a black screen... That's total ****... Why bother?

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Like I said there's 2 options, either you curl up in the fetal postition and gtfo of 0.0 or you keep fighting despite the server performance. Fixing the servers isn't like flicking a light switch, I'd imagine CCP is working on it (at least I'd hope so).

As for your strawman argument, "c'mon, you don't want the game to function as it should?" Of course I want there to be no lag but baring CCP discovering Robin Williams in a lamp you just have to persevere, or take your ball and go home .

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 21/02/2007 03:46:19
Node breaking isnt a "sanctioned tactic"

The "sancationed tactic" is "bringing as many people as you can or is nessesary to break a camp"

What did you expect the Goons to do, say "Oh well, they have 300 people with 100 fighters and 22 bubbles on the gate so we will just sit here and do nothing while they build a titan?"

Any force that would be given an even chance to break that camp was going to break the node. No one can be faulted in bringing enough people to break the camp.

You have a number of options

1) bring enough people, node crashes

2) Dont bring enough people, lose chance to kill titan

3) Dont come, lose chance to kill titan


If option 1 is a possibility who in this game is going to pick 2 or 3 becasue the node might go down?

And how can you fault them for that?

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

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Better than that...
#4:) bring the node down do the login thing and have free reign to kill anything in the system cause everyone else is gonna be staring at a char login screen for god knows how long.

Why the hell would anyone do anything else? If done right, theres NO defense, you have almost no chance for losses, and you will always win!

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Originally by: Pattonator

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Edited by: Pattonator on 21/02/2007 04:04:41
To the idiots who think we should have defended by not defending I don't know what to say.
...
Simple question that you should honestly answer:
When system starts becoming unstable is the best solution to restart node or limit the number of jumpins/logins.

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Originally by: Lubaduba

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9.30 i and other 20 from our fleet are able to login and load the grid. (6am - 9.30) 3.5 hours of starring at logon screen. <snip> Like i said - its all about dedication. If ur members stayed and tried to login - there could have been a complete diffrenent situation.

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Originally by: Tetsujin

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Were most of your members closing and re-opening the client to try to get in every few minutes or did you guys just click your character portraits and then let it sit there? :\

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Originally by: Pattonator

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Edited by: Pattonator on 21/02/2007 04:04:41
What LV expected was the gate would be lagged, not the system crashing. We heard the number of forces that were coming and we rallied. To the idiots who think we should have defended by not defending I don't know what to say.

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Originally by: Pattonator

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We've proven that the node was stable with the current numbers in system so stop saying that LV made the system unstable.

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Originally by: Pattonator

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Simple question that you should honestly answer:
When system starts becoming unstable is the best solution to restart node or limit the number of jumpins/logins.

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Originally by: Hubris

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It was entertaining to read spy intel about how it was the plan to get such a large defence fleet together that it would crash the node when the attackers came in. NBut that was pretty much all the entertainment i had for the night.

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Originally by: Pattonator

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We've proven that the node was stable with the current numbers in system so stop saying that LV made the system unstable.

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Originally by: Iamatrader

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there wasnt that much lag in the system befor the jump ins, the first 100 odd man fleet that was decemated, and the nodecrash fleet, well we all know what happened after that

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Originally by: Tetsujin

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Edited by: Tetsujin on 21/02/2007 04:51:00

Originally by: Pattonator

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We've proven that the node was stable with the current numbers in system so stop saying that LV made the system unstable.

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JV1V is like a bathtub see, it's full of water almost up to the top right, but you've been sitting in the bathtub now for an hour just enjoying the soak and the water's getting kind of cold and you need to warm it up so you turn the hot water tap on but you don't want to let any of the water that's already in the tub out because it's been so good to you for the last hour but pretty soon it will overflow and that's not really the fault of the water already in there or the water coming out of the tap it's the size of the tub that's the problem. You see?

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Originally by: Hellown

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Of course the node is going to crash, but the way the goons ect. kept it at 100% load AFTER the crash is what annoys me. 20-30 of our 450 man fleet were able to log on to see 600+ of the swarm in local. We amassed a force during our down time, the least we should be able to do is log it on and have a freaking chance.

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Originally by: Hellown

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Of course the node is going to crash, but the way the goons ect. kept it at 100% load AFTER the crash is what annoys me. 20-30 of our 450 man fleet were able to log on to see 600+ of the swarm in local. We amassed a force during our down time, the least we should be able to do is log it on and have a freaking chance.

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Originally by: Hellown

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Of course the node is going to crash, but the way the goons ect. kept it at 100% load AFTER the crash is what annoys me. 20-30 of our 450 man fleet were able to log on to see 600+ of the swarm in local. We amassed a force during our down time, the least we should be able to do is log it on and have a freaking chance.

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Originally by: Pattonator

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Edited by: Pattonator on 21/02/2007 04:04:41
What LV expected was the gate would be lagged, not the system crashing. We heard the number of forces that were coming and we rallied. To the idiots who think we should have defended by not defending I don't know what to say.

We've proven that the node was stable with the current numbers in system so stop saying that LV made the system unstable.


Simple question that you should honestly answer:
When system starts becoming unstable is the best solution to restart node or limit the number of jumpins/logins.

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Originally by: altposter

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Originally by: Pattonator

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Edited by: Pattonator on 21/02/2007 04:04:41
What LV expected was the gate would be lagged, not the system crashing. We heard the number of forces that were coming and we rallied. To the idiots who think we should have defended by not defending I don't know what to say.

We've proven that the node was stable with the current numbers in system so stop saying that LV made the system unstable.


Simple question that you should honestly answer:
When system starts becoming unstable is the best solution to restart node or limit the number of jumpins/logins.

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Bolded the important bit. Finally the truth. You based your entire defense around hoping the attackers would be so lagged at the gate due to your camp that they would never load grid and be 'slaughtered' like the first 100 you like to brag so much about.

You wanted node crushing lag because that favors you. You did not want a crash. Well, you flipped a coin and it landed on the railroad tracks.

How about you stop developing plans that require lag in your favor as a factor to win and see how that works out for you.

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Originally by: Pattonator

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Edited by: Pattonator on 21/02/2007 04:04:41
What LV expected was the gate would be lagged, not the system crashing. We heard the number of forces that were coming and we rallied. To the idiots who think we should have defended by not defending I don't know what to say.

We've proven that the node was stable with the current numbers in system so stop saying that LV made the system unstable.

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Quote:

---

Simple question that you should honestly answer:
When system starts becoming unstable is the best solution to restart node or limit the number of jumpins/logins.

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Quote:

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Restart. Jump/login queues artifically limit how many attackers can enter at a time, favoring the defenders, that's why CCP removed them.

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Originally by: Arushia

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Originally by: Pattonator

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Edited by: Pattonator on 21/02/2007 04:04:41
What LV expected was the gate would be lagged, not the system crashing. We heard the number of forces that were coming and we rallied. To the idiots who think we should have defended by not defending I don't know what to say.

We've proven that the node was stable with the current numbers in system so stop saying that LV made the system unstable.

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Contradictory. You intentionally created lag at the gate, but are upset that that lag+the lag of your enemies jumping it was too much for the node to handle?

Quote:

---

Simple question that you should honestly answer:
When system starts becoming unstable is the best solution to restart node or limit the number of jumpins/logins.

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Restart. Jump/login queues artifically limit how many attackers can enter at a time, favoring the defenders, that's why CCP removed them.

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Originally by: Pattonator

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Why is it whining to say that I wanted to fight and was prevented from doing so. You carebears who don't want to fight shouldn't complain about LV saying that we never got the fight that we were prepared for despite the time of day.

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Originally by: Osiris Warp

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Agreed
LV are just havin a whinge cause there plan of killing RAGOON 5 or 6 at a time as they Laged through the gate was foiled from node crash.

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Quote:

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So stop whinging LV just get on with the game you keep saying OH NO we wanted a fair fight but all ur actions before seem to point to trying to Lag out RAGOON so you can kill them as they slowly lag through a gate you never wanted to fight 300 - 1000 in an open battle and tbh i dont blame you who the hell would want to fight that.

But comeon its over you lost accept it

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Originally by: invaderzim

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Does ccp have the ability to swap nodes on the fly? Can they detect large fleet movements approaching a system already heavily populated? Is it possible to implement this mechanism? Is it possible to automate this mechanism?

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Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf

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You had 15 to 20 bubbles on the Jump in Gate. This forced everyone to remain on the same grid overloading it and causing the node to crash. At least that seems to be the consensus.

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Originally by: Pattonator

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5) LV's defense numbers and bubbles did not lag out the system. The first wave of goons that jumped in which were all T1 frigs and cruisers were annihilated without too much lag and we have fraps to prove this. What killed the node was RAGOONS doing mass logons as they all jumped in. Then your plan to jump more waves after the node crashed succeeded. We had covert ops in M-RP who watch your forces jump through the gate unhindered. When we finally got one on in JV1 we could tell that jump-ins had very little delay compared to the log-ins. Please deny this fact to show your dishonesty.

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Originally by: Jags

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What is forgotten about is the admitted (in another thread) 300+ logged off by the attackers already IN SYSTEM. Hence why LV had to have the numbers there to defend. If we defended one jump out they wouldve had free reign over attacking the POS just by logging on those already there.

TBH I think we did all we could do , camp the entry gate massively , pray the node holds and we get to kill them as they try to jump in.

Jump queues would IMO have stopped the node crashing and give us a chance to see if our defence wouldve worked.

Is a difficult call to make whether it wouldve given the numbers against us , IMO it wouldve had a 75%+ chance of success.

As I said when talking to KIATolon and Hippoking in JV local last night , it was a chance for EVE to have a truly legendary battle which was pulled from under our feet by CCPs woefully inadequate node handling ability.

The fact that CCP have now officially sanctioned node crashing as a way of winning a battle will be the end of EVE as we know it. A 500 alt fleet flying ibis could crash a node allowing the true attackers to cyno/jump in to the target system as it comes back up from its crash.

Disappointing response from the GMs tbh , makes me think they truly dont understand the game and how its mechanics work.

---

Originally by: Blind Fear

---

Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.

---

Originally by: Darken Two

---

Originally by: Jags

---

What is forgotten about is the admitted (in another thread) 300+ logged off by the attackers already IN SYSTEM. Hence why LV had to have the numbers there to defend. If we defended one jump out they wouldve had free reign over attacking the POS just by logging on those already there.

TBH I think we did all we could do , camp the entry gate massively , pray the node holds and we get to kill them as they try to jump in.

Jump queues would IMO have stopped the node crashing and give us a chance to see if our defence wouldve worked.

Is a difficult call to make whether it wouldve given the numbers against us , IMO it wouldve had a 75%+ chance of success.

As I said when talking to KIATolon and Hippoking in JV local last night , it was a chance for EVE to have a truly legendary battle which was pulled from under our feet by CCPs woefully inadequate node handling ability.

The fact that CCP have now officially sanctioned node crashing as a way of winning a battle will be the end of EVE as we know it. A 500 alt fleet flying ibis could crash a node allowing the true attackers to cyno/jump in to the target system as it comes back up from its crash.

Disappointing response from the GMs tbh , makes me think they truly dont understand the game and how its mechanics work.

---

Question is, what would you have them do?

CCP have pretty much painted themselves in a corner with the whole cheating fiasco. They cannot take the risk of appearing biased towards any side.

Also to be considered is that if the reimbursed LV for this particular case of server instability, it opens up a whole can of worms with regard to past incidents where people were not reimbursed.

And tbh you can't blame LV for the measures they took to protect the system and neither can you blame the GOONS for the measures they took to counter the defense fleet. Any talk of either side exploiting in this particular instance is pure unadulterated bullcrap.

---

Originally by: Fubear

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Originally by: Haas Tabris

---

LV lost the fight because the adjacent node supporting M-R did NOT crash. So, as soon as the JV1V node was reset, their fleet could begin jumping into the system. The LV fleet had to go back to their login screens, log into the game, and then wait in queue to get back into the system. This gave the goonfleet an unfair advantage. It's really about that simple.

---

Let me get this straight... you are now complaining that other nodes didn't crash? In that hour and a half it took for you to log in, a Goon could have logged into Jita and autopilot down to that system and jumped in. Are you then to petition that they didn't take the Jita node offline because of the battle?

The most fair method of determining the outcome of a battle like this is to let things play out as they did. Both sides got hit equally with the crash, both had equal chances of logging back in, and I assume jump-ins had the same lag or a queue or something.

If you got your stuff back, the whole fight would have to be done over and the same thing would just happen again. The battle took place, **** happened, you lost, get over it and stop crying all over the forums already!

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Originally by: FireFoxx80

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So let me get this straight. Because your enemy did not form a nice orderly queue in order to be annhilated; the node crashed; and now you're upset?

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Originally by: FireFoxx80

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It is a sad fact though that the nodes cannot support fights on this scale, and as your GM says, the knife cuts both ways

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Originally by: FireFoxx80

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(what if LV had jumped from J1V into the RAGOON system, crashing it in the process?).

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Originally by: prsr

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Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf

---

You had 15 to 20 bubbles on the Jump in Gate. This forced everyone to remain on the same grid overloading it and causing the node to crash. At least that seems to be the consensus.

---

Stop whining about bubbles, i loaded that system twice within 10 seconds when jumping in before the action. Nobody cares who caused the node crash if anyone at all. All we care about is that we had a very good chance to take out all the hostiles that wanted to attack us that night nevermind what all the experts among our enemies are claiming.

When answering the petition CCP denied there is a difference getting into the system when you're logged in there and jumping/cynoing in there.

CCP can resolve petitions however they want, we just want the explanation make sense and be true to the facts which it is not.

---

Originally by: Jags

---

The fact that CCP have now officially sanctioned node crashing as a way of winning a battle will be the end of EVE as we know it. A 500 alt fleet flying ibis could crash a node allowing the true attackers to cyno/jump in to the target system as it comes back up from its crash.

---

Originally by: Hellown

---

Goons did NOT wait out the log in que, they jumped people in from M-R which was on a different node so it did not crash, apparently jump ins get more priority than log ons.
They intentionaly jumped people in to crash the node, they intentionally continued to jump people in after the node crashed to keep it at 100%.

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Originally by: Hellown

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Of course the node is going to crash, but the way the goons ect. kept it at 100% load AFTER the crash is what annoys me. 20-30 of our 450 man fleet were able to log on to see 600+ of the swarm in local. We amassed a force during our down time, the least we should be able to do is log it on and have a freaking chance.

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Originally by: Lubaduba

---

Complete BS. After the node crashed - the only ones jumping from m-r was the RA fleet. Well there were about 5-6 goonies with us too. All other goons LOGGED IN after the crash INSIDE jv1v. And they had the same chance as u. Like i said before from the whole RA fleet - only about 20 people were able to jump finally in. Local was 480 with 80 LV's.

---

Originally by: prsr

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Originally by: FireFoxx80

---

(what if LV had jumped from J1V into the RAGOON system, crashing it in the process?).

---

And leave JV1 to the 300+ people that logged off in the system earlier... right, sure thing man.

---

Originally by: Zeveron

---

Originally by: Lubaduba

---

Complete BS. After the node crashed - the only ones jumping from m-r was the RA fleet. Well there were about 5-6 goonies with us too. All other goons LOGGED IN after the crash INSIDE jv1v. And they had the same chance as u. Like i said before from the whole RA fleet - only about 20 people were able to jump finally in. Local was 480 with 80 LV's.

---

And thats LVs point.
You gained advantage of the situation.
They had 400 b4 the crash and 80 after the crash.
You had 50% of your forces and they 20%, if the numbers tou say here are correct.

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Originally by: Noriath

---

This is completly stupid... Eve just isn't fun anymore, whenever something "great" gets accomplished it's not because someone has the better strategy or more people, it's because some bugged/broken game mechanic works to their advantage in a major way.

---

Quote:

---

Ultimately CCP have the final say here, so just get on with playing the game.

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Originally by: Noriath

---

This is completly stupid... Eve just isn't fun anymore, whenever something "great" gets accomplished it's not because someone has the better strategy or more people, it's because some bugged/broken game mechanic works to their advantage in a major way.

---

That's so damn true.

Either your lose and feel cheated, or you win and feel embarrassed and the victory is hollow.

I don't log on to EVE for either of those, but that's all we have right now...

The hollow victory is the lesser evil, and many are clinging to that right now...

I don't know what the answer is, but it appears CCP doesn't either. I'm not sure where to go from here. I have more invested in this game than many other pursuits in my life, that's sad, but that's the truth... Maybe a new hobby is on order lol.

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Originally by: Zeveron

---

And thats LVs point.
You gained advantage of the situation.
They had 400 b4 the crash and 80 after the crash.
You had 50% of your forces and they 20%, if the numbers tou say here are correct.

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Originally by: James Duar

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Originally by: Zeveron

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Originally by: Lubaduba

---

Complete BS. After the node crashed - the only ones jumping from m-r was the RA fleet. Well there were about 5-6 goonies with us too. All other goons LOGGED IN after the crash INSIDE jv1v. And they had the same chance as u. Like i said before from the whole RA fleet - only about 20 people were able to jump finally in. Local was 480 with 80 LV's.

---

And thats LVs point.
You gained advantage of the situation.
They had 400 b4 the crash and 80 after the crash.
You had 50% of your forces and they 20%, if the numbers tou say here are correct.

---

And as has been repeatedly stated, lots of people were logged in unable to move, control their ship or load whatever grid they were on before the node crashed again, yet the LV posting here act like somehow this was only affecting them when they got into the game.

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Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn

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Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 20/02/2007 23:34:53

OMG HAXPLOIT !!!!
We crash our node but our neihbourhood didn't...
Guess what, they were RAnoobs !!
OMG H4XPLOITS !!!!

Edit : just saw "450 vs 450" players in the original thread... Well, lol.
You were no more than 250. Are you sure you had two filled fleets ? Cool. We had "almost" 4.

Now guess what. Do you think you could do ANYTHING aginst us there ?
Rethink again. Sure ?

Let's play it again then, until you are bored.

---

Originally by: Lubaduba

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Originally by: Zeveron

---

And thats LVs point.
You gained advantage of the situation.
They had 400 b4 the crash and 80 after the crash.
You had 50% of your forces and they 20%, if the numbers tou say here are correct.

---

We gained that advantage cuz they gave up. they tried to login for 1.5 hours as they have stated themselves and then an order was given not to try to login anymore but to rely on petitions and GM's and go sleeping. We didnt rely on anyone but ourselves and as i described on the first page - i personally spent far over 3 hours trying to login. And i was among the first ones to do so. Dedication guys. Thats what decided the fight in the end.

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Originally by: Zeveron

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Dedication and crap.
I fought a war like this vs -A- at impass.
You know ppl have real lifes? Work? Wifes? Children?
You know that ppl need sleep? Need to talk to their wifes and children? Need to go to work to earn money?
It seems to be a TZ win and not dedication win.

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Originally by: HankMurphy

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Edited by: HankMurphy on 21/02/2007 11:33:26

Originally by: DarkMatter

---

Originally by: Noriath

---

This is completly stupid... Eve just isn't fun anymore, whenever something "great" gets accomplished it's not because someone has the better strategy or more people, it's because some bugged/broken game mechanic works to their advantage in a major way.

---

That's so damn true.

Either your lose and feel cheated, or you win and feel embarrassed and the victory is hollow.

I don't log on to EVE for either of those, but that's all we have right now...

The hollow victory is the lesser evil, and many are clinging to that right now...

I don't know what the answer is, but it appears CCP doesn't either. I'm not sure where to go from here. I have more invested in this game than many other pursuits in my life, that's sad, but that's the truth... Maybe a new hobby is on order lol.

---

new hobby?

perhaps you should try small/med gang pvp?

i luv fleet engagements as much as the next guy, but seriously, your most fun in eve ever? small gang pvp 4tw. you dont have to deal w/ any of this shyte

---

Originally by: Lubaduba

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Edited by: Lubaduba on 21/02/2007 11:47:13

Originally by: Zeveron

---

Dedication and crap.
I fought a war like this vs -A- at impass.
You know ppl have real lifes? Work? Wifes? Children?
You know that ppl need sleep? Need to talk to their wifes and children? Need to go to work to earn money?
It seems to be a TZ win and not dedication win.

---

Yeah ^) TZ ^). For 99% of RA it was 6am and most had to go to work. Stood up with the alarm clock at 5.30. And when the fight took longer than expected - well, called at work and claimed to be ill. And my wife is still upset cuz that alarm clock woke ger up too. And like i said - 3 hours sleep that day and the day before when we took gb-. But yes - it must be the timezone that decided.

---

Originally by: Otellus

---

Best solution of course is if CCP can fix the nodes so these kinds of fights can take place without nodecrashes. But I don't see how the tactic used by RAGOON can be classed an exploit. They had 2 choices, either give up or jump in and risk the effects of a nodecrash. You can't blame them for not giving up, can you?

---

Originally by: Otellus

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Best solution of course is if CCP can fix the nodes so these kinds of fights can take place without nodecrashes. But I don't see how the tactic used by RAGOON can be classed an exploit. They had 2 choices, either give up or jump in and risk the effects of a nodecrash. You can't blame them for not giving up, can you?

---

Originally by: Lubaduba

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Edited by: Lubaduba on 21/02/2007 11:47:13

Originally by: Zeveron

---

Dedication and crap.
I fought a war like this vs -A- at impass.
You know ppl have real lifes? Work? Wifes? Children?
You know that ppl need sleep? Need to talk to their wifes and children? Need to go to work to earn money?
It seems to be a TZ win and not dedication win.

---

Yeah ^) TZ ^). For 99% of RA it was 6am and most had to go to work. Stood up with the alarm clock at 5.30. And when the fight took longer than expected - well, called at work and claimed to be ill. And my wife is still upset cuz that alarm clock woke ger up too. And like i said - 3 hours sleep that day and the day before when we took gb-. But yes - it must be the timezone that decided.

---

Originally by: James Duar

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Originally by: Lubaduba

---

Edited by: Lubaduba on 21/02/2007 11:47:13

Originally by: Zeveron

---

Dedication and crap.
I fought a war like this vs -A- at impass.
You know ppl have real lifes? Work? Wifes? Children?
You know that ppl need sleep? Need to talk to their wifes and children? Need to go to work to earn money?
It seems to be a TZ win and not dedication win.

---

Yeah ^) TZ ^). For 99% of RA it was 6am and most had to go to work. Stood up with the alarm clock at 5.30. And when the fight took longer than expected - well, called at work and claimed to be ill. And my wife is still upset cuz that alarm clock woke ger up too. And like i said - 3 hours sleep that day and the day before when we took gb-. But yes - it must be the timezone that decided.

---

Ok you guys really don't get it. Why were you up at 4am? Because you stuffed up your stront timing. That was the reason the attack even happened. Because you stuffed up your stront timing on the tower, and it came out of reinforced in the primetime of one alliance, when they knew the other would be caught at a terrible time to be online.

This very fact is why strontium clathrate timers exist in EVE at all - it's no one's fault but your own that you were caught unable to really defend yourselves, that was kind of the whole point

---

Originally by: DarkMatter

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Originally by: Otellus

---

Best solution of course is if CCP can fix the nodes so these kinds of fights can take place without nodecrashes. But I don't see how the tactic used by RAGOON can be classed an exploit. They had 2 choices, either give up or jump in and risk the effects of a nodecrash. You can't blame them for not giving up, can you?

---

No matter who it is, if CCP doesn't ban ppl over stuff like this, all alliances will employ this "tactic"... And that's the sad part...

If there is no fear of being banned, then you can justify it as an adaptation to the game mechanics... I can't, and don't really want to play that way, but many will...

---

Originally by: Otellus

---

Originally by: DarkMatter

---

Originally by: Otellus

---

Best solution of course is if CCP can fix the nodes so these kinds of fights can take place without nodecrashes. But I don't see how the tactic used by RAGOON can be classed an exploit. They had 2 choices, either give up or jump in and risk the effects of a nodecrash. You can't blame them for not giving up, can you?

---

No matter who it is, if CCP doesn't ban ppl over stuff like this, all alliances will employ this "tactic"... And that's the sad part...

If there is no fear of being banned, then you can justify it as an adaptation to the game mechanics... I can't, and don't really want to play that way, but many will...

---

What tactic? Bringing a large fleet becomes a bannable offense? And who is to blame? If you have 5 fleets there, an LV one, a RA one, a Goon fleet, an IAC fleet, who will you blame for crashing the node?

You can say, blame the one jumping in, but that promotes the defensive blob, i.e. if you bring 500 defenders, then any enemy who tries to jump into you will crash the node and get banned. Is that fair?

I don't see the point in assigning blame here to either side to be honest. LV camped the gate with the biggest fleet they could muster, RAGOON jumped in with the largest fleet they could muster. Both valid actions. There is no blame here to assign IMO, except perhaps to CCP, but there will always be limits to hardware.

---

Originally by: DarkMatter

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Edited by: DarkMatter on 21/02/2007 12:40:17

Originally by: Otellus

---

Originally by: DarkMatter

---

Originally by: Otellus

---

Best solution of course is if CCP can fix the nodes so these kinds of fights can take place without nodecrashes. But I don't see how the tactic used by RAGOON can be classed an exploit. They had 2 choices, either give up or jump in and risk the effects of a nodecrash. You can't blame them for not giving up, can you?

---

No matter who it is, if CCP doesn't ban ppl over stuff like this, all alliances will employ this "tactic"... And that's the sad part...

If there is no fear of being banned, then you can justify it as an adaptation to the game mechanics... I can't, and don't really want to play that way, but many will...

---

What tactic? Bringing a large fleet becomes a bannable offense? And who is to blame? If you have 5 fleets there, an LV one, a RA one, a Goon fleet, an IAC fleet, who will you blame for crashing the node?

You can say, blame the one jumping in, but that promotes the defensive blob, i.e. if you bring 500 defenders, then any enemy who tries to jump into you will crash the node and get banned. Is that fair?

I don't see the point in assigning blame here to either side to be honest. LV camped the gate with the biggest fleet they could muster, RAGOON jumped in with the largest fleet they could muster. Both valid actions. There is no blame here to assign IMO, except perhaps to CCP, but there will always be limits to hardware.

---

Logoff 300 in the system you intend to attack the day b4 during your peak TZ. When enemy is in their defensive position, jump your fleet into the system and crash the node, when the node crashes compete for logon with enemy fleet utilizing the 300 logged off in system while having priority for your fleet jumping in. The defending fleet is now 25% the size it was b4, and your fleet jumping through the gate has priority, you win...

This will be the tactic from now on...

The 300 logged off in system could be 300 alts in pods, all you need to do is try to login with them and not let the defenders log in the entire fleet they had b4 the node crashed. All you have to do is compete with them for the login rights, and you are assured that their fleet will be a shadow if itself b4 the crash...

So, you don't even have to blow up ships up anymore, just deny them the ability to log in, wonderful game huh?

---

Quote:

---

LV dont have anything argument wise to come up with that will hold water.

---

Originally by: Ryoma Sakamoto

---

One thing CCP can consider:
Buy 2 Sunfire (or its IBM equivalent) servers, and label one as "Jita", and the other as "the Mother of all battles", and assign the first one to Jita permanently, and the second to the system of the BIGGEST battle going on. If you can't devote multiple blades to a singly system, forget blades and devote an old-style mainframe server for a particularly heavy-traffic system instead.

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Originally by: Jane Spondogolo

---

the reason the pos died was 70 DREADNAUGHTS.

---

Originally by: Jane Spondogolo

---

I'm sorry LV, but you've cried foul every engagement I can remember you in.

---

Originally by: xendie

---

... all this crying and whining about unfair blobbing is just silly

---

Originally by: Bienurdau Hywoaf

---

Originally by: DarkMatter

---

Quote:

---

If CCP wants to fix it, they have 2 options. Improve the servers to the point where these fights become manageable, or create incentives for BOTH attacker and defender to spread out.

---

I think we all realize the first option will NEVER happen...

As the game gains subscribers, the larger the fleets will become...

---

Yep there is no way to improve the servers to the point that 1000+ vastly different computers can send messages, receive messages and the server compile it all in 1 second time. Its just not possible with todays technology level.

---

Originally by: Van'Klomp

---

Originally by: Dekiri

---

Originally by: Van'Klomp

---

Edited by: Van''Klomp on 21/02/2007 13:52:13

Originally by: Ascrethy

---

Edited by: Ascrethy on 21/02/2007 12:46:42
whilst I have not been privy to the chat logs it has been reported that a ragoon member said in local

"login in and out faster guys we have to crash the node"

I will try to get the exact chat logs, but that shows that they knew by crashing the jv1v system the gate camp would become non existant.

---

If this is true it should be an instant ban.

I'm not picking sides, I said "if".

---

Nope, because he was probably making a joke and banning people for trying to be funny is only warranted if their funny is extremly distasteful.

---

Or... He was giving an order and it was followed, with the end result being a success?

And I a said 'if', if he gave this order and it was followed to the effect of crashing the node then a ban is deserved (unless exploitation is the new 'in-thing')...

---

Originally by: prsr

---

Originally by: Jane Spondogolo

---

the reason the pos died was 70 DREADNAUGHTS.

---

More like 40 capitals AFAIK, not all dreads. But I suppose you know it best since everybody knows noobwaffe are experts in 0.0 territorial warfare.

Originally by: Jane Spondogolo

---

I'm sorry LV, but you've cried foul every engagement I can remember you in.

---

Well, I'd care for your opinion on all those engagements that you remember but our killboard has never heard of you.

Originally by: xendie

---

... all this crying and whining about unfair blobbing is just silly

---

Hello Xendie, maybe you would like your own thread since you're not talking about the topic of this one?

---

Originally by: "darth solo"

---

bad men came, bad men didnt go home, bad men left containers.

---

Originally by: "darth solo"

---

bad men came, bad men didnt go home, bad men left containers.

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

---

Im TRYING to get CCP to rule on this or get someone to say wether or not its allowed :p

---

Originally by: Tetsujin

---

Originally by: Richard Aiel

---

Im TRYING to get CCP to rule on this or get someone to say wether or not its allowed :p

---

For that it would have to be intentional and it wasn't so it's sort of a waste of a thread. :\

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Originally by: Richard Aiel

---

Not really when the guys arguing against me are saying that CCP condones this action... I was kinda hoping someone would chime in and say "um we dont allow it btw"

---

Originally by: Roy Batty68

---

Originally by: Marcus TheMartin

---

There are alot of things that are unfair in this game.

Like local which works as a big Pirate in the system alarm but I don't get a big miner in the system alarm.

Or alts for example. The list can go on

---

Aurora: Purple alert! Purple alert! Miners in the system!
Player: Eh?
Aurora: Purple alert...
Player: WTF ya mean, purple alert? This the ship Formerly Known as... Barney or something?
Aurora: Well I'd say red, but the bulbs out...
Player: Oh.. ok... What's with the minors then? What? I have to mind myself just because their parents cba to, hmmm... parent?
Aurora: No ya thick git. Miners not minors! Go. Get them!
Player: Ah, right! Now where they at then?
Aurora: <sigh> Look, ya spent all your isk on this silly miner alert system. If ya can't sort out the navigation yourself. Well, paddle, no... creek, yes... up it. Eh?



only a couple of movies or tv shows were ripped off in the making of this totally irrelevant post. thank you, enjoy your evening

---

Originally by: prsr

---

Yea, because those bubbles that only create graphics lag on the client, those crashed the invaders to desktop, really.

Nevermind that people would load in under 15 seconds after jumping in before the "fight" started.

---

Originally by: Tetsujin

---

Originally by: Van'Klomp

---

Or... He was giving an order and it was followed, with the end result being a success?

And I a said 'if', if he gave this order and it was followed to the effect of crashing the node then a ban is deserved (unless exploitation is the new 'in-thing')...

---

Dude, I know that it's pretty hard to get stuff like sarcasm and tone of voice from pure text, but that quote drips of sarcasm.

---

Originally by: Kaber Jost

---

Don't care who is at fault, just know CCP need to find someway to minimize node crashes. One of the drawing points to EVE was large fleet battles, but when the node crashes because of this it goes against what myself, and i'm sure alot of us came here for. It needs to be priority.

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Originally by: Xaarist

---

blah blah blah WE TOTALLY HAD THE UNDEFEATABLE SETUP AND WOULD HAVE WON!

---

Originally by: Xaarist

---

it wasn't meant that way and i didn't want to write it that way. it adressed people who say "we had 1000 vs. 400 and would have won anyways".

the key points are in the rest of the text. but thanks for letting me state it clearer - it looked a bit like what you read out of it, because i opposed those "numbers" statements.

i say we ight have lost anyways, but not in this way, and not without them to take extremely high losses in the process...

---

Originally by: Xaarist

---

it wasn't meant that way and i didn't want to write it that way. it adressed people who say "we had 1000 vs. 400 and would have won anyways".

the key points are in the rest of the text. but thanks for letting me state it clearer - it looked a bit like what you read out of it, because i opposed those "numbers" statements.

i say we ight have lost anyways, but not in this way, and not without them to take extremely high losses in the process...

---

Originally by: Xaarist

---

it wasn't meant that way and i didn't want to write it that way. it adressed people who say "we had 1000 vs. 400 and would have won anyways".

the key points are in the rest of the text. but thanks for letting me state it clearer - it looked a bit like what you read out of it, because i opposed those "numbers" statements.

i say we ight have lost anyways, but not in this way, and not without them to take extremely high losses in the process...

---

Originally by: Blind Fear

---

Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.

---

Originally by: Darken Two

---

Just a question, If there was no lag and the GOONS had jumped in their entire fleet and started shooting all the bubbles, how long would they have lasted?

---

Originally by: Xaarist

---

Originally by: Darken Two

---

Just a question, If there was no lag and the GOONS had jumped in their entire fleet and started shooting all the bubbles, how long would they have lasted?

---

simple question, simple answer:

if there was no lag, and all the goons jumped in at once, these bubbles would have lasted forever. why? because if there was no lag, they would have gotten nuked by a titans doomsday device as soon as they decloaked.

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Originally by: Blind Fear

---

Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.

---

Originally by: Xaarist

---

Originally by: Darken Two

---

Just a question, If there was no lag and the GOONS had jumped in their entire fleet and started shooting all the bubbles, how long would they have lasted?

---

simple question, simple answer:

if there was no lag, and all the goons jumped in at once, these bubbles would have lasted forever. why? because if there was no lag, they would have gotten nuked by a titans doomsday device as soon as they decloaked.

---