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Contagion Tracking, Containment, Aid Planning

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Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3149	Posted - 2017.04.11 14:31:59 - [511] - Quote Nauplius wrote: You have it reversed: Kyonoke itself was a gift from God sent by God to his Chosen people that we might weaponize it and turn it into an instrument for the genocidal extermination of the Minmatar people. I suspect that the mysterious "nationalists" were trying to do just this. However, the Minmatar employed their dark sorcery to thwart the nationalist Kyonoke weaponizers and produce the cure that was as much science-defying as Kyonoke itself. So you're saying Eifyr & Co. is more powerful than God? Good to know when I'm shopping for implants.
Sakura Nihil Faded Light 400	Posted - 2017.04.11 14:59:20 - [512] - Quote I'm not sure what stimulant you're on Arrendis, but you should probably lay off of it before you stroke out on us. Glory
Mizhara Del'thul Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition 1561	Posted - 2017.04.11 15:03:59 - [513] - Quote Oh she doesn't need stims to keep this up. Trust me. Dangle internal inconsistencies and a few piles of stupid in front of her and she can go on for days. Add to this that a whole lot of people are sticking their fingers in their ears, rocking back and forth and going "No no no! This isn't stupid! This makes sense. Aahahahaaah yes total sense, completely. New Eden hasn't gone completely batfuck insane." while giggling hysterically to themselves and you get a few people somewhat... exasperated with the state of affairs. As it were. It is frankly rather disgusting to see otherwise reasonable people trying so very hard to pretend this wasn't the worst debacle New Eden has seen in quite a few years.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3149	Posted - 2017.04.11 15:07:27 - [514] - Quote Sakura Nihil wrote: I'm not sure what stimulant you're on Arrendis, but you should probably lay off of it before you stroke out on us. As Aria tried to warn Ronin once: I am incredibly pedantic. This kind of worrying (in the gnawing, not the anxiety, sense) over a bone of contention? This is how I relax. There is literally no point at which this will not be fun for me. Especially not when I'm right. Which I am.
Morgana Tsukiyo Samsara Dynamics 33	Posted - 2017.04.11 16:32:04 - [515] - Quote Arrendis wrote: As Aria tried to warn Ronin once: I am incredibly pedantic. This kind of worrying (in the gnawing, not the anxiety, sense) over a bone of contention? This is how I relax. There is literally no point at which this will not be fun for me. Especially not when I'm right. Which I am. What would be your steps then? You have the quarantine people locked up, and something that is being called an antidote. Next step?
Casserina Leshrac Sanguine Illuminations 123	Posted - 2017.04.11 16:39:55 - [516] - Quote I do apologize for coming in a little late to this part of the conversation. I would like to ask for an update on the quarantined populations of the effective area and what steps are being done to assist them since now we have a vaccine/antidote in place. *When thou enterest into the Sani Sabik, the Sani Sabik entereth into thee.*
Pieter Tuulinen Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 7382	Posted - 2017.04.11 16:41:44 - [517] - Quote Casserina Leshrac wrote: I do apologize for coming in a little late to this part of the conversation. I would like to ask for an update on the quarantined populations of the effective area and what steps are being done to assist them since now we have a vaccine/antidote in place. I imagine the vast majority of them will need a memorial more than anything else. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3152	Posted - 2017.04.11 17:21:08 - [518] - Quote Morgana Tsukiyo wrote: What would be your steps then? You have the quarantine people locked up, and something that is being called an antidote. Next step? Step 2: Tell the damn truth. In any crisis situation, which this still is, clear, accurate information is absolutely the most critical thing. Nobody can make informed, intelligent decisions without it. And we're not gettng it here. Stop calling it something it clearly isn't. If it's a cure, or a treatment, call it that. If it's a vaccine, call it that. If it's a hybridized self-replicating nanovirus that functions as both, call it that. Do not go trying to dumb it down for the masses in a way that puts out false information, like the idea that it's an 'antidote'. That's about as accurate as calling it a 'starship'. That dissemination of bad information doesn't just make it hard to understand what the treatment is. It also makes it impossible to trust any of the other information coming from the same sources. If I tell you five things, and one of those five things is literally impossible on the scale of 'that red dwarf is green', then you can't trust the rest of what I've claimed is true, either. Step 3: Actually secure the quarantines. We've been told, and had it confirmed by a member of my own alliance now, that miners got out of the Astral Mining platform, and made it to the Keepstar. We have absolutely no indication that they were, at any point, spotted by the security perimeter forces, and a decision was made to allow them to go to the keepstar because both sites were affected. We might like to think that, but we have no actual evidence to support it, which means we cannot assume that to be the case. This means that, so far as we can currently ascertain, the quarantine perimeter is not secured, and has not been over at least the last few days. Again, we can hope it is, but that's worthless in dealing with a crisis: you need actionable information, and you need to act based on what you know. So right now, we do not know the quarantine zones are secure. We do know that the quarantine zones need to be secure. So make sure they are is kind of a high priority here, before we start making them more permeable by letting aid workers go in and out. Step 4: More controlled testing, under actually controlled conditions. The quarantine zones are not controlled conditions. We do not have sufficient data about the environments or the people in them to consider them as such. We don't know how 0410 interacts, for example, with other diseases. Does it turn the common cold into a Kyonoke-level killer? No idea, but we'll put it into a population whose health we have no real, concrete data on, and whose conditions we are not, in fact, capable of adequately monitoring. This is reckless, and it is dangerous. Nor do we know what the long-term effects of the treatment are on the uninfected. We're told there's a scanner now that works totally amazingly great at detecting Kyonoke. We have no data. We have no assurances that it doesn't register false positives, which would result in administration of the treatment to an uninfected individual, and we have no assurances that there is not a level of 'too little to detect' at play, like there is with literally every other pathogen ever known to man. The idea that this once we've got perfect detection capabilities and history's first known treatment without side effects is... I don't even know how anyone can take that seriously. We also don't know about the long-term effects on the people who legitimately are saved by this treatment. Not a clue. We've got a whole keepstar set up for laboratory facilities and a bunch of people who've had the treatment administered, but why bother actually focusing on the controlled environment when we can start shipping this stuff out to where we have no idea what it will do or what condition those people are actually in? Eighteen months of testing is not a lot of time. Frankly, in medical testing terms, it's radically insufficient. Two to Five years is more normal, and that's for treatments for non-life-threatening pathogens, not a treatment for 'OH MY GOD THE DISEASE THAT WILL LITERALLY KILL EVERYONE IF WE DON'T ACT NOW NOW NOW'.. Then you get into a damned OODA loop: Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. This current strategy has basically leapt to Decide' and 'Act' without any damned 'Observe' going on. And that's pretty much a recipe for disaster. Which is why I started at Step 2, because... Step 1: STOP LETTING THE TERRIFIED PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY INFECTED AND DESPERATE FOR A WAY OUT MAKE THE DECISIONS, DAMMIT. Seriously. Aria's posts have consistently demonstrated exactly the levels of fear she's admitted to experiencing. I'm not singling her out here to pick on her, either. Two things I very much respect about Aria Jenneth are that she is a relentless and thorough observer of her own mental state, and that she is scrupulously, sometimes painfully honest about it. Aria is not a timid little thing, prone to being terrified or over-reacting to danger. Aria goes hunting Drifters in ships that, if she's moving too slow or in too straight a line, will explode if a Drifter sneezes. Aria is someone whose competence and ability to work without being influenced by fear has earned my respect, and my trust. Aria Jenneth is terrified, in her own understated way. This is not unusual. Disease does that. Disease, especially disease that impairs or alters the brain, is an insidous thing, an enemy you can't really fight, an enemy where even the experts can only make something to fight it for them, and hope it can do the job. And those people are also in there, exposed, and almost certainly terrified of dying. They should not be the ones making the decisions right now. They are compromised.
Tsao Aubbes Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 79	Posted - 2017.04.11 18:02:04 - [519] - Quote Deep breaths, Miss Arrendis, deep breaths.. No Longer a Drone Region Resident
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3154	Posted - 2017.04.11 18:25:09 - [520] - Quote Tsao Aubbes wrote: Deep breaths, Miss Arrendis, deep breaths.. I've actually got my feet up on the edge of the hot tub right now.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 9511	Posted - 2017.04.11 18:48:22 - [521] - Quote I'll be honest. When a pedant is badgering people for entertainment, it's probably best to ignore her. This isn't to say Arrendis's concerns are unreasonable; they are reasonable enough, in abstract. It's just that she's intractible because the argument is her objective, not the resolution of it. Anyway, whatever else transpires in this thread, we'll see what comes of the Inquest in coming days. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 3304	Posted - 2017.04.11 18:50:53 - [522] - Quote We pretty much expended the last of our actual decision-making power when we voted not to obliterate your test subject collection, Arrendis. The Inquest's over; our authority's gone. We're just a bunch of people under quarantine. Trapped. Someone else is calling the shots right now. I have no idea who. It's not like they're still briefing us. By the way, the researcher who tested me told me that a negative test left open the chance (very likely, I think, considering I'd been exposed about a thousand times) that I was in the incubation period. I thought I said something about that? So, yeah, the scanner probably needs a minimum concentration of some kind. I'm just not sure what that would be, or whether it applies to specks not currently occupying a person. Maybe a single speck on a tabletop is detectable, but, that seems like a little too much to hope for.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3157	Posted - 2017.04.11 19:13:42 - [523] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: I'll be honest. When a pedant is badgering people for entertainment, it's probably best to ignore her. I didn't say I was doing it for entertainment. I said it was fun. You should always try to love what you do. If you don't love it, don't do it. Quote: This isn't to say Arrendis's concerns are unreasonable; they are reasonable enough, in abstract. It's just that she's intractible because the argument is her objective, not the resolution of it. Nor is this in any way, shape, or form, true. You only think it is because you have never once actually sought resolution of an argument with me, only capitulation. I'm more than happy to come to consensus; ask Samira, Miz, or even Aldrith. We've certainly had issues that we resolved in the past. I am only truly intractable when compromise is unconscionable. For example: I personally would prefer at least ten to thirty years of controlled testing for something this important, which will see this immediate and widespread a level of demand across the entire cluster. Elmund's suggested a shorter testing period that's still at least 90 time longer than what was used before this stuff got pumped out in massive amounts to ship off to the Quarantine zones. I'm willing to work with that. It's not optimal, but it's better than what you've wrought.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3157	Posted - 2017.04.11 19:18:22 - [524] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: We pretty much expended the last of our actual decision-making power when we voted not to obliterate your test subject collection, Arrendis. The Inquest's over; our authority's gone. We're just a bunch of people under quarantine. Trapped. Someone else is calling the shots right now. I have no idea who. It's not like they're still briefing us. Willing to lay you odds none of the decisions being made are being made without heavy reliance on the advice of the corporate scientists stuck in the Keepstar with you, Aria. And they are the ones I referred to as 'compromised'. They should not be involved in the deicsion-making process. They should be a resource to provide data, not advice. And the very fact that this stuff was rushed off only hours after the Inquest's formal conclusion speaks volumes for how deliberate and rational the current decision-making process is. Quote: By the way, the researcher who tested me told me that a negative test left open the chance (very likely, I think, considering I'd been exposed about a thousand times) that I was in the incubation period. I thought I said something about that? So, yeah, the scanner probably needs a minimum concentration of some kind. I'm just not sure what that would be, or whether it applies to specks not currently occupying a person. Maybe a single speck on a tabletop is detectable, but, that seems like a little too much to hope for. So the scanner leaves open the possibility that someone's in the incubation period. Which makes it about as useful as 'are you exhibiting symptoms?'. Yep. Wondrous breakthrough there.
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 3304	Posted - 2017.04.11 19:26:20 - [525] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Aria Jenneth wrote: We pretty much expended the last of our actual decision-making power when we voted not to obliterate your test subject collection, Arrendis. The Inquest's over; our authority's gone. We're just a bunch of people under quarantine. Trapped. Someone else is calling the shots right now. I have no idea who. It's not like they're still briefing us. Willing to lay you odds none of the decisions being made are being made without heavy reliance on the advice of the corporate scientists stuck in the Keepstar with you, Aria. And they are the ones I referred to as 'compromised'. They should not be involved in the deicsion-making process. They should be a resource to provide data, not advice. And the very fact that this stuff was rushed off only hours after the Inquest's formal conclusion speaks volumes for how deliberate and rational the current decision-making process is. Point, maybe. Quote: Quote: By the way, the researcher who tested me told me that a negative test left open the chance (very likely, I think, considering I'd been exposed about a thousand times) that I was in the incubation period. I thought I said something about that? So, yeah, the scanner probably needs a minimum concentration of some kind. I'm just not sure what that would be, or whether it applies to specks not currently occupying a person. Maybe a single speck on a tabletop is detectable, but, that seems like a little too much to hope for. So the scanner leaves open the possibility that someone's in the incubation period. Which makes it about as useful as 'are you exhibiting symptoms?'. Yep. Wondrous breakthrough there. No-- it also lets you ask tables whether they're exhibiting symptoms. It's definitely able to pick up high levels of contamination in the environment. Question is whether it's able to pick up medium or low levels. I don't get the sense there's a minimum concentration greater than "a speck" needed to cause the disease (at least in "basic" form), so, the scanner's usefulness is maybe a little limited until it can pick up just one-- unless, that is, the goal is to distinguish a Koyonoke outbreak from other stuff early on so you can snap a quarantine into place. That, it might be pretty useful for.
Thomas en Gravonere Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation 2	Posted - 2017.04.11 19:29:07 - [526] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: Mr. Gravonere? You do realize that one of the founding members of ARC is IKAME, right? Itsukame-Zainou? And that Phoenix Naval Systems, a State-loyal capsuleer corporation serving as an associate group in and security contractor to ARC, was instrumental to our joint efforts? (some minor edits to adjust to Mr. Gravonere's edits.) More than aware of the fact. I just chose to make a split between the state and the capsuleer in order to offend the state.
Mizhara Del'thul Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition 1561	Posted - 2017.04.11 19:33:46 - [527] - Quote Can confirm, she can come to a consensus with only slight behavioral adjustment through electric shock therapy. At this point I don't think it'll be necessary, as I largely find myself in agreement with her.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 9512	Posted - 2017.04.11 20:02:04 - [528] - Quote Thomas en Gravonere wrote: More than aware of the fact. I just chose to make a split between the state and the capsuleer in order to offend the state. Let me know if the CEP responds, mm? Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Thomas en Gravonere Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation 3	Posted - 2017.04.11 21:18:32 - [529] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: Thomas en Gravonere wrote: More than aware of the fact. I just chose to make a split between the state and the capsuleer in order to offend the state. Let me know if the CEP responds, mm? Don't care much for a response, I'm afraid - and I think you know well where the insult was targeted. Besides, as one Ms. Lagann put it - ARC is not solely a State organization.
Pieter Tuulinen Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 7383	Posted - 2017.04.11 21:32:42 - [530] - Quote Thomas en Gravonere wrote: Makoto Priano wrote: Mr. Gravonere? You do realize that one of the founding members of ARC is IKAME, right? Itsukame-Zainou? And that Phoenix Naval Systems, a State-loyal capsuleer corporation serving as an associate group in and security contractor to ARC, was instrumental to our joint efforts? (some minor edits to adjust to Mr. Gravonere's edits.) More than aware of the fact. I just chose to make a split between the state and the capsuleer in order to offend the state. We'd have to care about your opinion to get offended, mate. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3161	Posted - 2017.04.11 21:35:53 - [531] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: We'd have to care about your opinion to get offended, mate. There are always those quick to leap at any chance to be offended, Pieter.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 9513	Posted - 2017.04.11 21:43:00 - [532] - Quote Thomas en Gravonere wrote: Don't care much for a response, I'm afraid - and I think you know well where the insult was targeted. Besides, as one Ms. Lagann put it - ARC is not solely a State organization. Mm. Thank you for educating me on what ARC is and is not. Arrendis? You might need to do some more training. This one's not up to your high standards. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Pieter Tuulinen Akagi Initiative Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 7383	Posted - 2017.04.11 22:21:32 - [533] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Pieter Tuulinen wrote: We'd have to care about your opinion to get offended, mate. There are always those quick to leap at any chance to be offended, Pieter. And many more who live to offend. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3161	Posted - 2017.04.11 22:51:59 - [534] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: Arrendis? You might need to do some more training. This one's not up to your high standards. Training WIdot against badposting is like training DK against hating the Federation. I love 'em, just the same. Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Arrendis wrote: There are always those quick to leap at any chance to be offended, Pieter. And many more who live to offend. Oh, I think the numbers are about the same. The offended just don't speak up as much in public.
Oland Jan Antumbra 14	Posted - 2017.04.11 23:25:04 - [535] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: A brief statement for those deriding my statements on FIO as unsupportable bias, allow me to clarify. We do lack definitive proof... My intent was not to berate you, as I appreciate much of the work you have done. I also didnGÇÖt intend to imply that your allegations were unsupportable. Only that, and by your own addition, they are allegations.
Thomas en Gravonere Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation 3	Posted - 2017.04.11 23:44:50 - [536] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: Mm. Thank you for educating me on what ARC is and is not. Arrendis? You might need to do some more training. This one's not up to your high standards. So what is the verdict then? Branching between empires, or supporting one? AD: It appears that I got some clarification on the subject of differentiating between associates and the core organization. Apologies - it's been quite some time since I've dealt with more rigid structuring.
Elmund Egivand Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 2151	Posted - 2017.04.12 01:40:07 - [537] - Quote Arrendis wrote: So the scanner leaves open the possibility that someone's in the incubation period. Which makes it about as useful as 'are you exhibiting symptoms?'. Yep. Wondrous breakthrough there. However, we didn't use to be able to any concentration of Kyonoke prions. As in, at all. The only way to know whether anyone is infected is when someone starts to exhibit the shivers and rapidly deteriorate. At least give them credit for actually managing to detect the prion before someone starts having seizures and show black spots all over themselves. It's a first step at least. A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3161	Posted - 2017.04.12 01:51:54 - [538] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: However, we didn't use to be able to any concentration of Kyonoke prions. As in, at all. The only way to know whether anyone is infected is when someone starts to exhibit the shivers and rapidly deteriorate. At least give them credit for actually managing to detect the prion before someone starts having seizures and show black spots all over themselves. It's a first step at least. That's fair, sure.
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 3313	Posted - 2017.04.12 19:34:22 - [539] - Quote So, here's a thing: Someone just showed me a data file-- it looks like there might be quarantine relief inbound, at least for us capsuleers. Specialized medical pods? If I understood the design and proposed use right, we'd basically be sealed in full life-support mode for at least a week or so-- drip-fed nutrients, full catheterization, the whole bit. They'll put us in, then give the hull a light toasting with plasma on the way out to get rid of any contamination. The thing's fitted with more than the usual set of medical scanners. Basically, they'd keep us in there in sensory deprivation under really intense monitoring, senses shunted off; we'd be able to use our ships, but, probably, getting podded would be discouraged, I'd guess. And, they're equipped with the scanners designed to pick up specks. I guess they figure if we can stand having scanners and a bunch of medical expert systems, presumably backed up by actual medical experts, all over us for days on end without developing a detectable knot of specks in the brain stem or excreting anything that raises an alarm, we're probably okay. Not sure how that interacts with concerns about the cure, but, I guess if it's nanite-based they can probably filter it out or switch it off when they're sure we're clean. ... Interesting.
Mizhara Del'thul Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition 1565	Posted - 2017.04.12 19:37:56 - [540] - Quote So potentially carrying around sufficiently large samples of the speck so anyone with a SeBo and sufficient firepower can go harvest to their heart's desire? Magnificent quarantine measures. Absolutely magnificent. Was New Eden always this stupid and I just didn't notice, or is this a new thing?

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