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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3053
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 16:19:45 -
[121] - Quote
Considering the virulence and lethality of the Kyonoke speck, I'd really be surprised if there was anyone in those places left alive. And, if they are, it's not like they could move safely to reach supplies.
Also, sending supplies means opening defenses, however briefly, which means risking letting the contamination spread.
We're in a plague scenario. Kindness ... I really like kind people, and I try not to be awful to people myself. In a case like this, though....
It could bury us all. |
Yuwei Sung
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 16:24:04 -
[122] - Quote
I would guess they're scared so stiff of the pathogen that no one wants to crack open the bubble and deliver the food. Kyonoke has borderline mystical reputation at this point.
Edit: Oh dear, someone beat me to my point five minutes ago! |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3053
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 16:38:36 -
[123] - Quote
Yuwei Sung wrote:I would guess they're scared so stiff of the pathogen that no one wants to crack open the bubble and deliver the food. Kyonoke has borderline mystical reputation at this point.
Edit: Oh dear, someone beat me to my point five minutes ago!
Uh ... maybe kind of, but I think you're playing it in terms of people's motivations rather than the reasons.
One thing I'd like to respectfully mention, Ms. Sung: talking about something like "mystical reputation" makes it sound like an urban legend. It isn't one. It's a real thing with really anomalous and scary characteristics, including breaching environment suits. It's already bypassed a couple smaller-scale quarantines on its way to our current apparently-stable situation.
It's pretty important not to understate how deadly this stuff is. At this point, arguments based in dispassionate threat analysis can be hard to distinguish from arguments founded in irrational fear and panic. Given places like the Federation where public sentiment can have a lot of sway over the course of events, it's going to be a little important to control public perceptions.
If they start to think the threat's being overstated and the authorities are being needlessly cruel out of cowardice ... well. We're already maybe seeing a little of what will happen. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1368
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 16:39:02 -
[124] - Quote
It would frankly be child's play to use unmanned cargo drones for such purposes, and if the idea is that everyone are already dead then it should be an equally simple matter to simply make that announcement. Unless you're claiming these forces are so staggeringly inept and incompetent that they can't achieve some very simple one-way deliveries into a quarantine area.
It's got exactly **** all to do with 'kindness' and everything to do with basic humanity and the immeasurable worth of doing whatever can be done to preserve any survivors for information gathering purposes on top of that basic measure of humanitarian aid. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3053
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 16:45:57 -
[125] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:It would frankly be child's play to use unmanned cargo drones for such purposes, and if the idea is that everyone are already dead then it should be an equally simple matter to simply make that announcement. Unless you're claiming these forces are so staggeringly inept and incompetent that they can't achieve some very simple one-way deliveries into a quarantine area.
It's got exactly **** all to do with 'kindness' and everything to do with basic humanity and the immeasurable worth of doing whatever can be done to preserve any survivors for information gathering purposes on top of that basic measure of humanitarian aid.
Passing an unmanned cargo drone is still passing something, Miz. In the case of self-contained orbital facilities, maybe that's doable without risk. In the case of a planetary city, though ... (I admit that's mostly what I was thinking of) ... or of a few sealed decks on an otherwise-unaffected station.... |
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
699
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 16:59:18 -
[126] - Quote
I'd love to speak in defense of the basic respect for humanity of the State.
But I couldn't say what's really going on. I'm not an expert on extreme biohazard quarantine procedures, city-sized nanoshield operation, don't have boots on the ground, and am certainly not going to wildly speculate on happenings based on vague rumors as told by possibly biased sources.
But hey! Here's a Scope piece heavily implying things.
Maybe State officials really are a bunch of monsters!
To err is human, to forgive divine; neither are alliance policy.
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Yuwei Sung
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 17:02:31 -
[127] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Uh ... maybe kind of, but I think you're playing it in terms of people's motivations rather than the reasons.
One thing I'd like to respectfully mention, Ms. Sung: talking about something like "mystical reputation" makes it sound like an urban legend. It isn't one. It's a real thing with really anomalous and scary characteristics, including breaching environment suits. It's already bypassed a couple smaller-scale quarantines on its way to our current apparently-stable situation.
It's pretty important not to understate how deadly this stuff is. At this point, arguments based in dispassionate threat analysis can be hard to distinguish from arguments founded in irrational fear and panic. Given places like the Federation where public sentiment can have a lot of sway over the course of events, it's going to be a little important to control public perceptions.
If they start to think the threat's being overstated and the authorities are being needlessly cruel out of cowardice ... well. We're already maybe seeing a little of what will happen.
I just meant in the sense that you brought up the notion of "Maybe it would be a bad idea to open the doors even for a minute", as an explanation re: the apparent starving of the city population, which other people seemed to be overlooking. You did frame it as logical rather than emotional, though I'll comment I never said it was an unjust state of terror!
Neither did I say that said mystical reputation was unfairly earned. Hopefully anyone reading didn't take me as downplaying the legitimately (at present) inexplicable properties of the pathogen, and the threat it represents.
However, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the plague has sort of come to be viewed as a sort of unstoppable, pseudo-divine force like a pandemic of yore, and not a problem to be reasonably solved. Which is stupid. It isn't a problem yet, but excessive caution in dealing with it could eventually become crippling. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1368
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 17:08:23 -
[128] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:It would frankly be child's play to use unmanned cargo drones for such purposes, and if the idea is that everyone are already dead then it should be an equally simple matter to simply make that announcement. Unless you're claiming these forces are so staggeringly inept and incompetent that they can't achieve some very simple one-way deliveries into a quarantine area.
It's got exactly **** all to do with 'kindness' and everything to do with basic humanity and the immeasurable worth of doing whatever can be done to preserve any survivors for information gathering purposes on top of that basic measure of humanitarian aid. Passing an unmanned cargo drone is still passing something, Miz. In the case of self-contained orbital facilities, maybe that's doable without risk. In the case of a planetary city, though ... (I admit that's mostly what I was thinking of) ... or of a few sealed decks on an otherwise-unaffected station....
Step one: Filled cargo drones placed at quarantine perimeter in suitable area. Step two: Expand quarantine in that location to cover the cargo drones and the entry point. Step three: Send in cargo drones.
Insert situation specific technology or resources as required, no outwards breach even remotely possible.
We have mastered one way delivery systems in every other situation that requires it since before any of us bothered lobbing bits of tech or people into space. This is not even remotely difficult to achieve in any way, so that begs the question: Why is it not being done? I refuse to believe they are so unbelievably useless that they can't put this into action safely and effectively, so something else must be the reason. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3054
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 17:12:17 -
[129] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I refuse to believe they are so unbelievably useless that they can't put this into action safely and effectively, so something else must be the reason.
It might be a technical problem. Do you know what the characteristics of a "nanoshield" are, Miz? 'Cause I don't.
There's a probably quite dead city on one side of this one, and a whole planetary population on the other, so I think they're going to be reluctant to do anything that requires them to, oh, say, switch it off, even briefly. |
Ashihei Shikkoken
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 17:13:20 -
[130] - Quote
Jev North wrote:But hey! Here's a Scope piece heavily implying things. Sure would like to know who among State Peacekeepers has been leaking information to the Scope.
Also, those protesting should know, escalating the situation with STPC won't end well. See New Caldari Prime YC115.
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1368
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 17:18:04 -
[131] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I refuse to believe they are so unbelievably useless that they can't put this into action safely and effectively, so something else must be the reason. It might be a technical problem. Do you know what the characteristics of a "nanoshield" are, Miz? 'Cause I don't. There's a probably quite dead city on one side of this one, and a whole planetary population on the other, so I think they're going to be reluctant to do anything that requires them to, oh, say, switch it off, even briefly.
Always a possibility, but it sounds more like an excuse to cave to cowardice to me. If there are people still alive in there, they've damn well earned a fighting chance. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3055
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 17:45:24 -
[132] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Always a possibility, but it sounds more like an excuse to cave to cowardice to me. If there are people still alive in there, they've damn well earned a fighting chance.
Maybe. It's possible my cultural background just makes me more trusting of authority. I remember there was some speculation about Caldari (and associated peoples, because: Achur) needing to be "told what to do" back when I gave my oath to the Praefecta, and there might be a little truth to that. (Whether it's really about cultural background or not, I, personally, definitely take orders a little too well.)
Also, the Caldari have this kind of ethic where it's perfectly okay to cut people loose if they become a threat to your community's survival, or even just a troublesome burden (how troublesome varies).
Actually, it's pretty much a responsibility to do exactly that. If it's a hard winter and food's run low, it's maybe time for Grandmother and Grandfather to go join the Ancestors. And, if Grandfather doesn't want to go, it's maybe Eldest Son's responsibility to kick him out the door. Being able to carry out that kind of heart-wrenching duty is part of the Caldari definition of strength.
That might be what's at work. Or, it could be the other, more technical, thing. Or, yes, fear, maybe.
But, Miz, we're not really in a very good position to speculate, or to judge. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1368
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 17:55:15 -
[133] - Quote
Apparently not, according to the latest release the SoCT has begun "genetic research on the latest strain of Kyonoke, in an attempt to "either create a vaccine, or an inhibitor with the intention of limiting the spread of the deadly pathogen"."
Genetic research. On a prion.
Apparently the reports of it being even remotely related to a prion disease was nonsense, or this report is nonsense, or...
Spirits below, is there really nothing reported on this damned travesty that can be taken at face value? There's so much disinformation, intentional or not, that you almost have to assume it's intentional. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
9318
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 17:59:04 -
[134] - Quote
It's not exactly uncommon for journalists to lack technical background.
You'd think they'd have their biotech commentators review it but, well, news agencies want the news out yesterday.
Edit: The latest new, as Ms. Del'thul indicates, is on the construction and continued development of the Kyonoke Inquest facility in Postouvin.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3055
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 18:20:04 -
[135] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Apparently not, according to the latest release the SoCT has begun "genetic research on the latest strain of Kyonoke, in an attempt to "either create a vaccine, or an inhibitor with the intention of limiting the spread of the deadly pathogen"."
Genetic research. On a prion.
Apparently the reports of it being even remotely related to a prion disease was nonsense, or this report is nonsense, or...
Spirits below, is there really nothing reported on this damned travesty that can be taken at face value? There's so much disinformation, intentional or not, that you almost have to assume it's intentional.
Oh, dear. Okay.
Uh ... going to indulge in a bit of wild speculation, now.
Let's set aside the possibility of this being some Ancient-created nano-plague with some components (like nanite factories) we're not being told about. 'Cause if Ancient tech is actively involved, it might have properties that may as well be magic. To this day we don't completely understand the principles behind some of the reverse-engineered stuff we use daily. The example I know of for sure is Takmahl shield emitters; it's where the Caldari got a lot of their shield tech. We know how to build them, but not, on a deep level, why they work.
Let's leave all that out.
So ... the Kyonoke speck has two configurations we know of: a virus-like "advanced" configuration and a prion-like "basic" configuration. Let's assume for now that these really are the only two forms.
What if ... the Kyonoke speck's advanced form really is a virus? As in, full-fledged quasi-microorganism that invades cells and repurposes them to make more of itself. Exactly what we think of as a virus. This virus, like any virus, is subject to mutation. It also has a limited lifespan, and doesn't stick around for all that long outside a host.
Only: in addition to viral structures, cells infected with advanced Kyonoke also produce the "basic" Kyonoke prion.
Basic Kyonoke prions act mostly like normal prions. They're highly stable, can lurk just about anywhere indefinitely, and take much longer to cause disease. Only-- what if "basic" Kyonoke prions can latch on or wedge into DNA strands (which are, themselves, proteins, after all) and set the cell up to make advanced Kyonoke?
If we assume that the prions will eventually break down an unusually wide variety of protein structures into more prions, which then either individually or in some numbers have very limited but not statistically-insignificant odds of creating an advanced-form spawning cell, a situation might arise in which the odds of generating an advanced-form infection approach certainty.
Thus, the two forms aren't matters of a single speck having two configurations, but of a single "species" of disease producing two types of pathogen.
(Still doesn't explain the ability to bypass airtight seals, though.)
This would also mean that there really is a genetic code to study-- it just exists only in advanced Kyonoke.
Thoughts? |
Jev North
Anshar Incorporated Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
699
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 18:30:20 -
[136] - Quote
Nanomachines.
To err is human, to forgive divine; neither are alliance policy.
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1369
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 18:31:34 -
[137] - Quote
The disinformation, lack of information and general unwillingness to provide even the slightest of information that could allow the significant resources of capsuleer researchers and the countless baseliner employees we can leverage to provide this sort of help is starting to grate.
We are weeks into this situation and every damn one of our governments are clamming up to the point where it's damn near starting to look malicious. I swear by every spirit, soul and place I hold dear someone will die over this if it turns out their greed and power mongering is putting my people further at risk through this campaign of information blackout.
Solitude being a tad far from Muttokon, and separated by multiple logistical nightmare systems at that, the apparently inept Republic government had better start showing they are doing something beyond just sitting on a Kyonoke bomb waiting for it to go off, or people are going to start taking matters into their own hands and surgically cut off from such things, we capsuleers can't even help stop that from happening.
That this situation isn't a result of either massive incompetence or outright malice is starting to become a serious stretch at this point.
Edit: @Aria
All too possible, all too impossible to test and falsify without a damn sight more information. I'd rather not speculate too much about such doomsday scenarios when we have a demonstrable history of corrupt, power hungry and outright malicious governments not acting in our people's interests to begin with.
Either way, we're sitting here with our thumbs up our arses without the information needed to do anything we weren't already doing weeks and weeks ago and that was wearing thin already then. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3055
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 18:52:14 -
[138] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:That this situation isn't a result of either massive incompetence or outright malice is starting to become a serious stretch at this point.
Uh-- Miz? Again, maybe I'm just over-trusting of authority, but, it seems like if all five points of the CONCORD star are keeping mum it's probably for a very good reason.
I mean, of the various sins laid at the Federation's door (self-righteousness, cultural imperialism, encouraging lewd and licentious behavior, naively maintaining an unsustainable and chaos-prone form of government), malice is probably the least-common.
In order for this to be the case, all of the following must be true:
1. The SOCT is malicious. (Pretty sure they're not incompetent; they're keeping an infection quarantined in a limited region of a densely-inhabited station.)
2. The Empire is malicious or incompetent.
3. The State is malicious. (Again, they stopped a planetside outbreak, so, probably not incompetent.)
4. The Republic is malicious or incompetent.
5. The Federation is incompetent. (Because, again: malicious? Maybe if you're Ms. Kim.)
Does that really scan in any way at all? It seems like supposing something like that of all five, often venomously-opposed, governments is the stretch.
What I'm getting from this is that what they're facing is something scary and bad (we kind of knew that), and there are quite a few people who would take very destructive advantage if they were clear on how to do that (we kind of knew that, too).
We don't have need to know, Miz. Probably it's safer that we don't. Data outlining safe interaction with Kyonoke also would indirectly outline how to safely transport and release it. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
1369
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 19:07:46 -
[139] - Quote
Your naivete is endearing but in this case rather limiting. Every last one of our governments have a history of significant malice and underhandedness. The RSS has a fairly nasty history, the Federation's ugly underside has surfaced quite a few times even just in our careers as capsuleers, the State's Megacorporations and its culture is a prime example of one where sacrificing "for the greater good", i.e. more money and power to shareholders is common and given the Empire's willingness to inflict horror, slavery and destruction upon entire nations when it can I somewhat doubt they're above such things.
Yes, it most certainly scans that all these governments are more than willing and able to suppress information for as long as possible while trying to gain as much as possible in terms of bioweapon data and more. So far, the SoCT seems to be the only ones willing to part with even a fraction of the information they gather.
The simple fact of the matter is that they're not even willing to release information on whether or not there's survivors left in those sites, or any other of the countless pieces of information related to this situation that would pose absolutely zero danger to anyone.
You'll have to forgive me, but blind obedience towards those who have in the past proven more than once that they are more than capable of malicious intent is morally and ethically abhorrent to me. If they want me obedient and loyal, they have to damn well earn it. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3055
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 19:31:49 -
[140] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Your naivete is endearing but in this case rather limiting.
At the moment it seems to be "limiting" how much I feel like complaining about stuff that's beyond my power to change.
Anyway, considering the recent quarrel in the Caldari CEP over sharing information with the Federation, I don't think everybody's just hunkering down with their own little troves of secrets and trying to weaponize any possible advantage. ... much as Lai Dai and KK apparently might want to. |
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Hetu Hegirin
Otherwhere Circle
75
|
Posted - 2017.03.08 19:32:03 -
[141] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Solitude being a tad far from Muttokon, and separated by multiple logistical nightmare systems at that, the apparently inept Republic government had better start showing they are doing something beyond just sitting on a Kyonoke bomb waiting for it to go off, or people are going to start taking matters into their own hands and surgically cut off from such things, we capsuleers can't even help stop that from happening. I have contacted Administrator Etbald with regard to this point. Given the cool reception ceded by Valklear General Elislar at the onset of the crisis, I do not anticipate much of a response. Perhaps word will circulate in a productive way, but I am doubtful. I would encourage concerned parties to contact their Tribal MPs in what manner is permitted by their Clans.
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Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1920
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 00:03:16 -
[142] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:2. The Empire is malicious or incompetent. Certainly not this one either, as the Empire controls none of the current infection sites directly. There's been absolutely no word on our end about actions taken or stances to be held.
Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle
Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade
Lord Consort of House Sarum
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Casserina Leshrac
Sanguine Illuminations
88
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 01:07:26 -
[143] - Quote
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:2. The Empire is malicious or incompetent. Certainly not this one either, as the Empire controls none of the current infection sites directly. There's been absolutely no word on our end about actions taken or stances to be held.
And yet it was in Imperial Space. True they do not own the station around Efu.
But to even allow Kyonoke to exist inside Imperial borders does make one asks awkward questions about maliciousness and incompetence.
When thou enterest into the Sani Sabik, the Sani Sabik entereth into thee.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3060
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 04:36:56 -
[144] - Quote
Casserina Leshrac wrote:And yet it was in Imperial Space. True they do not own the station around Efu.
But to even allow Kyonoke to exist inside Imperial borders does make one asks awkward questions about maliciousness and incompetence.
Uh ... considering that it's basically undetectable until someone gets sick, Ms. Leshrac, I'm not sure it's being asked such a question that's awkward. |
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
726
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 12:31:23 -
[145] - Quote
The mistake all of you are making is thinking that Kyonoke is a purely natural, scientific phenomena that obeys scientific laws. Thus, you are all confused when the contagion seems to violate those laws (by being a prion with DNA or by somehow penetrating filters that by all accounts should be too small for it to pass through).
Instead, think of Kyonoke like the Bright Star that destroyed the Jove. It violated scientific laws, because it was an Act of God. Kyonoke is a tool sent by God to his Chosen that we might weaponize it and complete the genocidal extermination of the Minmatar people and finally dissolve this rotting corpse of the Golden Age into the glorious new Blood Age that awaits us. All of you so-called Imperial Loyalists should stop trying to send aid and instead get your Minmatar slaves infected in order that we might spread their infection among the Minmatar people.
Even so, may the Blood Age come quickly. Amen. Amarr Victor. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3060
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 13:37:02 -
[146] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:It violated scientific laws, because it was an Act of God. Kyonoke is a tool sent by God to his Chosen that we might weaponize it and complete the genocidal extermination of the Minmatar people and finally dissolve this rotting corpse of the Golden Age into the glorious new Blood Age that awaits us.
For something supernatural, it seems like it's responding well to current containment methods: nanoshield, whatever that is; whatever the SoCT has done to keep it from spreading through their station. Maybe those are secretly mystical rites or something, though. The SoCT does have a theocratic history, so, I guess you'd probably say that they're keeping the unfortunate souls you sent to that station from becoming infected through wicked profane rituals.
Given your deity's preferences, I'm guessing defying Him involves drawing arcane sigils on the bulkheads with gumdrops or something. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
2081
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 14:32:38 -
[147] - Quote
If it appears supernatural, it means we do not understand it enough, not because it's magic.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3063
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 14:36:19 -
[148] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:If it appears supernatural, it means we do not understand it enough, not because it's magic.
Uh, Mr. Egivand, very respectfully, I think this statement is a little lost on both the people it looks like you might have aimed it at. For exactly opposite reasons. |
Yuwei Sung
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 14:56:03 -
[149] - Quote
I was reading Nauplius's post and getting excited to cite it as an example of what I was talking about yesterday, but then I got to the end and now am not sure quite what to think. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
3063
|
Posted - 2017.03.09 15:06:25 -
[150] - Quote
Yuwei Sung wrote:I was reading Nauplius's post and getting excited to cite it as an example of what I was talking about yesterday, but then I got to the end and now am not sure quite what to think.
In most things, Mr. Nauplius is kind of an outlier.
A little context: his response to this was to thank me for revealing some secrets of Achur occultism and ask me for more. Which, I might very well produce at some point in a similar spirit.
If I do, I expect his reaction to those will be similar: he'll mine them for any little bit of occult insight he can derive. |
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