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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Jags Minmatar M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:04:00 - [271] The problem is that a titan is the only real counterbalance to a massive blob. That IMO is the crux of the matter.

Jacques Archambault Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.05.13 20:05:00 - [272] Thread cleaned - please keep your replies polite and on-topic. -Jacques forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website!

Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.13 22:57:00 - [273] Originally by: Ling Xiao You've always needed to bring capital ships to defeat capital ships, this is not a new development. Not really. It is very possible to kill capital ships without capital ships. Or, if you had less capitals than the enemy, counter this disadvantage with a bigger support fleet.
Laura Baretta Minmatar Caelestis Caedes	Posted - 2007.05.14 00:07:00 - [274] I think Capitals and Non-Capitals have totally different roles, and neither will die out in the near future. Capitals conquer Non-Capitals control On the matter of the titans, I agree they might be a little bit too invulnerable. I leave it to the devs to figure out a way to nerf them and not make them useless / overpriced / ineffective.
Zarrika Khan Caldari No Quarter. Academy	Posted - 2007.05.14 00:38:00 - [275] Edited by: Zarrika Khan on 14/05/2007 00:37:16 Where to start? Ok, Titans should have an edge as they are 'Super Capitals' and even if they were cheap to make they are not cheap to skill for in terms of time let alone ISK. Balancing the Titan so that there is a chance to kill it once it's support fleet is removed (prevent Titan pilots from flying around solo) 1. Remove or seriously weaken remote Doomsday Detonations by Cyno. 2. Any Doomsday use leaves the Titan unable to Jump Portal for 30 minutes. (Think of this like the calibration time on a cloaking ship even though covert ops and recons are specialized they still suffer a calibration time.) 3. Cloaking devices on Titans... not sure how big a problem this is but simply give the Titan a penatly to fit it. As for even tackling it etc.. I agree with those that think it should only be done by those who planned out a trap or ARE capable of pulling it off on the fly when the Titan makes it's appearance on the field. IF (and only if) the remote Doomsday dentonation was seriously reduced both in effective range, say 50 Kms or so and not as powerful, say 50% of the damage then even Battleships may survive and ships in a fleet may be well out of it's range with a 50 KMs radius of effect. It would still have an effect and multiple Titans would still be a threat to weaken 'the blob' as it were... just not as 'final' as they are now. IF there was a count down timer delaying the Titan from Jumping out after it uses the Doomsday Device then the Titan pilot must have some support to insure it's safety to an extent not currently needed. IF a Titan Cannot Cloak and must wait for it's Post Doomsday Counter to time out before jumping out then it can be scanned down by a standard covert ops or recon ship and then the fun can begin... try to take it out... you will still need a serious fleet of capitals and all kinds of pain because the Titan will not be alone.
haq aan Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.05.14 09:39:00 - [276] I agree %90 of your points.One of the best constructive threads ever.Keep up the good work,and ignore the trolls Bein. haq aan D2-Omega Enterprices
Razor Jaxx Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.05.14 15:26:00 - [277] A very interesting read, props for the time you obviously dedicated to this. I can't say I agree with all your points, most notably when it comes down to specific numbers in the suggested modifications, but you were right on the mark in identifying the underlying issues and in offering possible directions to address those issues.
Kyodai Koga Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.05.14 16:27:00 - [278] Edited by: Kyodai Koga on 14/05/2007 16:26:23 Edited by: Kyodai Koga on 14/05/2007 16:25:41 Latest dev blog: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=464 - No more cyno DD - Interdiction bubbles avoiding jump for capitals - More capitals in the field, less hiding in POS - anti blob weapons Geez, add in the impossibility for a capitals to cloak CCP and I think we'll be quite close from the solution... Also, out of the Titan question, I'm feeling a big paradigm shift coming in fleet warfare... for the better or the worst (however I think I'll let my t2 BS in the hangar when those changes come and go for the new bombers, manticore ftw )
xDaKewlGuyx	Posted - 2007.05.14 20:03:00 - [279] bumpin' dis
Car Wars adeptus gattacus Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.05.15 12:02:00 - [280] Edited by: Car Wars on 15/05/2007 12:00:33 Nice post, great work. You point out the imballanced points clearly, your solutions are a little goon minded though, no offense. Amend some of your fixes/nerfs and a titan should be killable. -Range of doomsday 150km radius, at least it then viable to use you tech II sniping fleet, your still at risk, titan can cyno in close or jump to a close covert. You are still risking a lot of tech II BS. As it is now they are totally wasted. -no remote doomsday, yep thats an idiotic no risk feature. -Titan can be scrambled by a mothership with a special scrambler that can only fit on a mothership. Could extend that to dread or carrier. There has to be some value at risk at least. -cap recharge issue, titan should at least stay at the battle field 5-10 min before being able to jump out after a doomsday. If above is changed then alliances will at least have a fighting chance to engage a titan. Its still not easy, because it should not be easy. Your still looking at a tech II sniping fleet as support, capitals for the damage a real big effort. Titans should be at risk, period, but only when engaged by enough capable pilots, not by a bunch of noobs in tech I BS or smaller.

Illsauros	Posted - 2007.05.16 01:55:00 - [281] I think we're all missing the obvious solution. Titans should have a small exhaust port right above a main port that's at the end of a really long trench. Firing at this target would lead straight to the main reactor and start a chain reaction. grin
Conmen CRICE Corporation Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.05.16 03:13:00 - [282] please all of you guy just go back to halo we dont need you here it was fine before its fine now and will always been fine so just stop whining i demand this thread closed.....
Bein Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.16 03:53:00 - [283] Originally by: Conmen please all of you guy just go back to halo we dont need you here it was fine before its fine now and will always been fine so just stop whining i demand this thread closed..... [email protected]
Vladimir Tinakin Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative	Posted - 2007.05.16 15:46:00 - [284] OP: /signed Titans from what I've read are blob-manufacturers, not killers. Those that state "well, you should have to mass 50 carriers with energy neuts and 150 battleship damage-dealers/30 dreads to kill it" and "titans are the ultimate anti-blob weapon" in the same breath/post are wonderfully self-defeating in their argument. Never mind that the carriers, madly energy-neuting, are also pretty much dead in the water for the titan's buddies to pick off at leisure. I think there's ample room to play with the nerfing and rebalancing (actually, since they were never balanced to begin with, it would be the balancing) of titans. The OP offers suggestions--most if not all are adequate and sensible--but CCP can and will obviously play with figures and settings to handle this. I just hope that the recent devblog isn't a "Well, ok, we'll remove the remote DD. Wrangler, pop another cold one, we're done" but rather a start on the balancing process. ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO Hadean Drive Yards
Bein Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.17 16:03:00 - [285] Just to answer this guy's question from page 3: Originally by: Xiao Up I'm saying I genuinely don't care if he's right or wrong. All I care about is that at some point, the goons started posting at least 3 "OMFG TITANS ARE BROKEN NERF PLS KTHXBAI" threads per day. If everyone is in agreement that this thread is the be-all-end-all of all the "Titans are overpowered" threads, then all I want is: PLEASE STOP POSTING THE OTHER ONES. Let's keep all discussion about the brokenness of Titans in THIS thread, and please tell the other people in your alliance to stop spamming the rest of the forums with new threads. That is all. There will be no end to Titan threads until there is an end to Titan problems.
Neu Bastian	Posted - 2007.05.17 21:18:00 - [286] Edited by: Neu Bastian on 17/05/2007 21:18:49 Awesome post! kuddos to you. hands cookie jar Originally by: Illsauros I think we're all missing the obvious solution. Titans should have a small exhaust port right above a main port that's at the end of a really long trench. Firing at this target would lead straight to the main reactor and start a chain reaction. grin Hehe, I agree. I think the key to defeating a titan should be a rookie ship with some civilian modules. think about it, how to get it through support with out mastering the force? :P (it is not a skill is it?) Seriously tho, I agree on doomsday's Issue, and same goes for any Omni-directional hurting-wave device. Best nix them unless they add some damage to self when using it or just give them a wide angle (I'd say under 100 deg) rather than 360. Fallout goes with out saying.

CCP Abathur	Posted - 2007.05.21 08:34:00 - [287] Thank you for a well written and detailed post. Such efforts are noticed and appreciated by the Dev Team. We're well aware of the importance of many of the issues you describe and they are under heavy discussion almost daily as Kali 2 gets closer and closer. Threads such as this one are a great help in identifying specific issues that need more of our attention. Rest assured, we are paying attention. "Tux did it!"

Vlip Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.21 09:49:00 - [288] My main grip with Titans is entropy. Those ships simply ain't dying for reasons amply explained in this thread. So if they don't die and keep being built, then it raises the question of what Eve will be when alliances field fleets of Titans. Fighting BoB which routinely fields two titans and sometimes even three (and let's not count the MoMs) is already nigh impossible, what will it be when an alliance (and it doesn't matter which, really) fields a dozen of them? They are expensive to build, true, but it's quite clear now that they are not THAT expensive to build to remain a rarity as time progresses. So either CCP finds a way to balance titans' death rate to be close to their birth rate or we are headed into trouble. Or you can restrict their population by making them expensive to operate. I for one think titans should be very rarely seen (the joves barely have four according to the chronicles, seeing a puny 0.0 alliance field more than one already seems weird). As such I'd say make supercaps consume fuel, lots of fuel while activated. Make it a logistic nightmare to operate for longer periods of time. A titan would become something you use for very special occasions (establishing a beachhead in enemy territory, last ditch defense of a system,...) not a daily solopwnmobile like today. Plan your op carefuly, prepare the logistics, go on a rampage during one day, use normal ships to mop up afterwards. The advantage of this is that it doesn't involve nerfing the doomsday (maybe taking away the remote ability too, up to CCP) or the titan (ridiculous cap recharges have to go away and ewar immunity rethought slightly, but nothing more) as you wouldn't have to worry about facing multiple titans daily. Just once in a while. The same should be true for Motherships, albeit cheaper to use. They still should be a rare sight. Supercaps would become alliance class ships, not solo ships. I know supercap pilots will detest that idea, but I think it's a good way to prevent supercaps from being too comon. This way building a dozen titans do not make any sense anymore as operating one everyday would already be impossible anyway. Think about it. Seeing a titan in battle should be a "oh wow" moment, not the "what, only one?" that it has become right now. Please put the "WOW" back in supercap encounters!
wobbly Amarr Red Frost	Posted - 2007.05.21 13:30:00 - [289] I think Hank hit the right note one page back. If you want to own 0.0 these days you need more that hundreds of pilots in BS's. EVE needed an anti-blob tool otherwise there would be more and more JV1V's with massive blobfests, tactics were devolving to: Bring more people to the fight than they can and you win!! Bringing a fleet of 1000 ships to blow up a POS, who wants to see that happen again? The problems all seem to stem from multiple Titans; being DD'd (remote or in person) multiple times was not considered. No-one would worry too much about cap regen or gang bonuses or anything if you only had to worry about 1, but when there are 2 or 3 or even 4 arrayed against you then you know you are stuffed before you even undock. So maybe a limit on how many DD's can set off in a particular part of space (for example within a 1000km of the focal point) within a certain time limit (1 hour?) ... This of course would be abused by an attacker DD'ing a POS to make sure that the opposition cannot DD their support, so maybe it needs to be done using standings What I think (for what its worth) is that it all comes back to flipping POS's. They require blobs to kill them (usually) ... They are a poorly thought out method of gaining/keeping soverignty and while I cannot give an idea for a substitute, I know for a fact that almost no-one likes them and would be delighted if they were superseded in their role in soverignty. Station ping pong was annoying, but POS's are the devil incarnate.
Rashi Nerha Gallente The Devil's Rejects	Posted - 2007.05.21 13:53:00 - [290] Yey, a dev.

Bein Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.21 14:19:00 - [291] Originally by: CCP Abathur Thank you for a well written and detailed post. Such efforts are noticed and appreciated by the Dev Team. We're well aware of the importance of many of the issues you describe and they are under heavy discussion almost daily as Kali 2 gets closer and closer. Threads such as this one are a great help in identifying specific issues that need more of our attention. Rest assured, we are paying attention. Thank you for listening, and I only hope now that your changes will be enough and on time.
Tanaka Nari	Posted - 2007.05.21 17:02:00 - [292] This thread wins the titan debate. Abathur: listening is one thing, acting is a second. Please do something about it in the next patch, not next year or something. I don't have a problem with the alliance with the most titans taking over the whole EVE universe (yep, the WHOLE UNIVERSE), Star Wars basically played in such a setting. However, in Star Wars, the rebels had a chance to fight back. As the OP lined out, titans can not really be countered, except by another titan (whose construction can be made severely hard by the entity owning a titan first).
alpheon Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.22 03:41:00 - [293] in response to ... Quote: In addition, however, it would be necessary to change Warp Scrambling and Warp Disruption Batteries for player owned stations. At the moment, they do 6 and 3 points of warp scrambling strength, and with innate warp strength change, it may be a little too effective against enemy Titans, especially if they put a few dozen batteries on a POS. A Titan is still going to be in significant danger if it goes near an enemy POS with active warp scrambling and stasis webifier batteries, but not quite as much. IMHO a Titan should be scared of a POS. Your thesis paper on titans should be applauded, you've done a great bit of work and put a lot of thought into it. At the very least, you read my mind, and took the time to put some numbers behind my thoughts ;) As stated in the OP. Titans should be a strategic asset, not a tactical asset. They should be relied on to provide strategic movement and logistics to a tactical force. Not as the spear of destiny to an army. Utilizing them as the center of a expeditionary force, that is able to travel into the enemies heart land and cause greif and destruction to the home of the enemy should be its goal. Not through use of DDD deployments, but by allowing a flotila of dreadnaughts and carriers and support ships to operate behind enemy lines longer, through use of cargo capacity, clone bays, and ship hangers to provide logistics, personell, and spare ships to fight and wage war. No other ship in the game is able to open a jump portal that can circumvent the enemy in the way the titan can. Combined with the long discussed changes of removing "local" and making it "constelation", a defensive fleet would have to keep its forces at the entrances to a constellation, leaving its center weak. A titan could jump portal a fleet behind those defensive lines creating all sorts of havoc and mayham for the defenders. (who are now effectivily trapped from any retreat if the attackers have another force coming in the front door. Again, Titans should be used as a strategic tool, not as the sledge hammer of the front line. They should be afraid of POS's, which should be able to do damage and lock down a titan that wanders too close. I encourage anything that makes Titans strategic in nature, and removes the effectiveness of the DoomsDay Devices.
Ilor Prophet	Posted - 2007.05.22 14:51:00 - [294] I disagree with alpheon a little bit, but only in implementation. If we're talking about a logistics ship that allows the enemy to operate behind enemy lines for long periods of time, I'd rather see the Mothership fulfill that role. I'd even advocate giving the Mothership jump-bridge capability (and possibly removing it from the Titan). That way, Motherships are the supercap equivalent of Carriers, which can allow smaller tactical fleets to operate behind enemy lines by jumping in fresh ships and supplies. Titans could then be what I imagine they were envisioned as from the start - the supercap Dreadnoughts. I've already given a few ideas for how to change the Doomsday Device to make it into a fleet-buster, and I think that that would be a really interesting role for a Titan. And again, I echo the OP's sentiments on warp scrambling and ECM. Give Titans high intrinsic warp stabilization and sensor strength, but at least give a chance that they might be affected. Regardless of what the devs decide to do, however, it is critically important that it be documented. How Titans function, what the various modules do, how they interact, and what the ramifications are should be explicitly spelled out. Detailed patch notes enumerating not only the changes but also giving an idea of how Titans work is going to be crucial. None of this, "Oh, just figure it out in game" stuff. Because even if it's not actually happening, it gives the impression of Developer collusion, and if there's one thing CCP does not need, it's more suspicion of same.
Dalanoria The Aduro Protocol Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.05.22 15:51:00 - [295] It will never get balanced as long as Dev's (not GM's) are addicted to playing their own creation. I dont even think CCP employs enough game coders to re balance capitals.Considering how long it takes them to deploy a simple patch, I wouldnt expect this to wind up as priority any time in the next year. When the eve population hits rock bottum, they will do what SOE did with SWG and issue a apology to their community begging them to come back. Or, CCP realizes that EVE is a old man in terms of MMO's and not worth the profit loss in hiring a Developer for capital re balancing.. They said they were hiring a Developer to fix drones.They eather never hired him/her or he is one dumb SOB... Your post was well thought out, infact its scary the amount of time you put into a post pertaining to a Video Game that isnt real life, has no bering on anything but your leisure time and you waisted 2 hours of your short precious life writing up something no DEV that matters will ever see...
Vladimir Tinakin Caldari Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative	Posted - 2007.05.22 16:43:00 - [296] Originally by: Dalanoria It will never get balanced as long as Dev's (not GM's) are addicted to playing their own creation. I dont even think CCP employs enough game coders to re balance capitals.Considering how long it takes them to deploy a simple patch, I wouldnt expect this to wind up as priority any time in the next year. When the eve population hits rock bottum, they will do what SOE did with SWG and issue a apology to their community begging them to come back. Or, CCP realizes that EVE is a old man in terms of MMO's and not worth the profit loss in hiring a Developer for capital re balancing.. They said they were hiring a Developer to fix drones.They eather never hired him/her or he is one dumb SOB... Your post was well thought out, infact its scary the amount of time you put into a post pertaining to a Video Game that isnt real life, has no bering on anything but your leisure time and you waisted 2 hours of your short precious life writing up something no DEV that matters will ever see... Can I have your stuff? Send me the contract link please... Seriously, I've given the CCP Devs their (earned) share of flack, but as the latest blog illustrates, they are aware of the issues with supercaps and will be addressing it to some degree with the next major content patch (which is probably 3ish weeks off or so, if I had to guess...and I do. ) While I think the supercaps could stand a bit of an over-nerf and then re-rebalancing (as opposed to an insufficient nerf that just ****es off the community more) I'm going to wait and see what the devs come up with before blasting them for it. Eve is still CCP's cash cow, and will be so for a long time to come. Maybe their vamp MMO will replace it, but thats still in the initial design/sketch phase. MMO's take YEARS to come out, and they have to pay the power bill. The bar tab is already taken care of by a second mortgage, or so I hear. ----------------------------------------------- Adm Vladimir Tinakin CFO Hadean Drive Yards
Borgholio Minmatar Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.05.25 10:08:00 - [297] I have to give credit to Bein Glorious for his writeup on the titan issue. It was an excellent analysis of the situation and I enjoyed reading it. However, it is quite long...and I didn't want to make my eyes bleed by reading the next 9 pages of replies. :) So with that being said, forgive me if my suggestion has already been made. In regards to the Doomsday, all of the ideas put forth in the OP revolve around the idea of the DD remaining basically a giant smartbomb. What if it were changed to be a single-target weapon instead of an anti-fleet weapon? In other words, think "Death Star" from Return of the Jedi. A single powerful weapon capable of vaporizing anything except another titan or a mothership (but still causing tremendous damage). With a cooldown time based on the size of the target, it will ensure that a reasonably sized fleet of capitals won't be destroyed in a matter of minutes. It will, however, allow the titan to be used as an excellent fleet support weapon by being able to pick off enemy battleships at range. Furthermore, smaller ships could dart in and around the titan taking potshots at it without fear of being nuked. This means any fight involving a titan could become a truly classic fleet battle. Once again I refer to Return of the Jedi, where you see fighters and smaller warships flying circles around the massive capital ships of the Empire and Rebel starfleets. ----------------------------------- You will be assimilated...bunghole!
smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.25 10:29:00 - [298] Originally by: Conmen please all of you guy just go back to halo we dont need you here it was fine before its fine now and will always been fine so just stop whining i demand this thread closed..... Originally by: CCP Abathur Thank you for a well written and detailed post. Such efforts are noticed and appreciated by the Dev Team. We're well aware of the importance of many of the issues you describe and they are under heavy discussion almost daily as Kali 2 gets closer and closer. Threads such as this one are a great help in identifying specific issues that need more of our attention. Rest assured, we are paying attention. Good to see that ccp are aware of these issues and pay as much attention to idiots such as Conmen as the rest of us. Supercap balance soon(tm)! sgb
Lightof God Caldari Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.05.25 10:50:00 - [299] Bein that is a wonderful post and I wholeheatdly agree with you. Titans do need a heavy nerfing and I will forever and for always support any titan nerf, titans need fixing, and soon.
The Anointed Caldari Evolutionary Transhumanist Apperception	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:37:00 - [300] Hate to add to this debate without having ever had experience with a DD or Titan (not like its stopped anyone else though); but when I read about the DD before it was in game, it read as if it was going to be a case of aiming your titan in a direction, DD'ing then everything, friend or foe would get melted. In my opinion the only thing that should be changed about titans is the remote firing. There are ways in which to counter a titan (in theory) but it requires the inability to fire from a safespot and recloak before you can be probed down.



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