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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Moonaru Izu
Caldari I.Z.U Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.27 07:03:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Moonaru Izu on 27/05/2007 07:03:19 I'm one of the people actively following the changes on Sisi w.r.t the stealth bombers and the new bombs. The thread where they are discussed is linkage
In one of the feedback posts by Dev Fendahl in this thread (Dev post) is some information regarding cloaks and them being detectable by probes .
This is, as far as I know, completely new information that was not shared before. If true, it can and will be a major concern of many players, judging from the many threads on cloaking and the heated dicussions on them (hehe I used heat aswell )
I felt that this tidbit of information should not remain tucked away in the aforementioned thread but should have some broader attention. As it is not on TQ yet I thought this was the best place to discuss it.
I really hope one of the devs (Fendahl?) can provide some more comments and details on this one soon(the non-tm version of it, as in "really soon") because I forsee that the tin-fold-hat division will take over soon.
Now, to all of us forum warriors. Before we all jump to conclusions I really think we should wait for a comment and further explanation from the Dev team. I'm only interested in the facts and not in yet another 23 page thread with assumptions, whinage and complaining on cloaks. We have enough of those. When we know the facts then we can make up our mind if we like it or not..
So please Dev team, provide some more details on this.
@Fendahl: I hope you do not feel bad or put on the spot by me making this post because that is not my intention. I really appreciate your feedback in the other threads and hope this does not influence doing that in the future.
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William Hamilton
Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.05.27 07:58:00 -
[2]
I personally want probes to detect cloaked ships, but not with a high probability of success.
Cloaked ships shouldn't show up on any random scan, so you can't just drop a probe on system entry to check for cloakers. It should be such that you can only find cloakers once they have otherwise confirmed their presence.
Also, nerf local
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.05.27 08:09:00 -
[3]
I like how he's (Fendahl) has already edited it out of his post lol.
Because I said so...
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Merin Ryskin
FinFleet
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Posted - 2007.05.27 08:19:00 -
[4]
For those of you who missed it, here's the quote that was removed:
Originally by: CCP Fendahl The next patch also makes it possible to detect cloaked ships with scan probes, so the BS fleet could have its scouts scan for hidden surprises.
I've said it elsewhere, but I'll say it again. Covert ops frigates and recon cruisers should NEVER be detected until (and if) they decide to deloak. Anything else completely defeats the purpose of cloaking. Even a low chance for success is unacceptable, since it just turns it into a roll of the dice with nothing you can do to change the odds.
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Moonaru Izu
Caldari I.Z.U Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.27 09:42:00 -
[5]
Originally by: murder one I like how he's (Fendahl) has already edited it out of his post lol.
hmm..as far as I can see it is still there...
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Ronzo Walrus
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.27 10:07:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Moonaru Izu
Originally by: murder one I like how he's (Fendahl) has already edited it out of his post lol.
hmm..as far as I can see it is still there...
Ditto, I can still see it
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Mephysto
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Posted - 2007.05.27 10:48:00 -
[7]
This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.27 10:56:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Anything else completely defeats the purpose of cloaking.
Unless the purpose of cloaking is hiding afk for oyu it won't do much there. Although it would be a good idea to give the result for a cloaked ship a 10k inaccurancy so you can can out easier before they manage to uncloak you.
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Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.27 11:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mephysto This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
And as I asked in the strategic weapons thread, I presume cloaked pilots will still appear in local chat? Yes? No?
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ghosttr
Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.27 11:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Originally by: Mephysto This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
And as I asked in the strategic weapons thread, I presume cloaked pilots will still appear in local chat? Yes? No?
Yes.
If you want to help test them you can log onto sisi after the next update
I will be testing it myself If i can find a cloaker to scan out Need to test the accuracy of the probes. As well as the different cloaks, (aka the different between covert ops cloak, and t1 cloak) and how easy it is to find someone once you warp to the scan results.
Make Mining Better |
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.05.27 12:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mephysto This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
So, now you're telling me that a solo pvper who's flying a recon around looking for targets and starts to get chased by a big gang can't use his cloak to avoid getting ganked to hell and back in a RECON ship, which is DESIGNED to cloak and remain undetected?
Also, a covert ops frigate which is designed to remain cloaked for COVERT OPERATIONS can be detected by being probed out?
Congratulations, you're looking to create more mini professions in Eve, and have effectively just completely destroyed covert ops scouting.
What a complete and utter pile of crap.
>>> THE BEAUTY OF NEW EDEN <<<
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Voltas Stormtide
The Praxis Initiative FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.27 13:08:00 -
[12]
An Alternative to probing out cloakers that we all can live with:
A new module is implemented called the mobile cloak disruptor - it comes in T1 and T2 variants, costs 20ish mill for the cheapest. They work simillarly to mobile warp disruptors, but affect cloaked vessels (does not work on ships that are cloaked after jumping through a gate). Any cloaked ship that enters the area of effect is immediately uncloaked. The bubble wouldn't have the same pull in affect as the warp disruptor bub.
The usage would be for example: 1) Set up a mining op with this as the centrepiece and you have some protection from cloakers. They are still free to roam about cloaked elsewhere of course. 2) gate camps - prevent cov-ops and recons escaping
They wouldnt have too many hit points, but would have a small sig radius meaning best bet is to collaborate with friends to destroy them.
Their cost is such that they won't get thrown up at any occasion.
The T1 variant would have a radius of perhaps 70km, the T2 one; 100km.
It's only an idea - but I think it satisfies the people who are ****ed off by what some people can get out of their cloaking ships, yet it doesn't nerf the load out of those people who have spent weeks/months specialising in their ship of choice
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.27 13:10:00 -
[13]
You people seem to think that probing = automatically decloaking. It isn't.
For example, a cov ops scouting an enemy blob at a gate. They probe me. If I am careful not go get more than 150k away from the gate all they can do is approaching the position I was at that moment. Where I am moving with 500 m/s away constantly. Oh noes. Whatever will I do? Even if they have 10km/s ceptors which move at once to that location I'll be already 5k away from it when they arrive. Good luck finding me. Nevermind that I can also warp to a spot on the other side of the gate (assuming I am halfway prepared) as soon as I see one of them moving towards me.
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hjjjugguu
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Posted - 2007.05.27 13:16:00 -
[14]
Can the devs please add more info. Looking at dev posts we can only say "recons, covto ops ships and cloaking module will become as useful as an auto targeter.
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Korben Morat
Caldari Special Circumstances.
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Posted - 2007.05.27 13:44:00 -
[15]
what a pile of crud.
I guess recon and covet ops pilots like myself are left high and dry.
Next time I have to step away from my computer for 5 minutes I should log out right? Well with the changes to recon probes, even doing that means that i may log back in in a pod.
Next time I'm solo in 0.0 in my pilgrim I'm just going to get probed into oblivion, I may as well forget about entering 0.0 unless I have a fleet behind me? What do you seriously think you're doing? There has to be space for the solo player to enter 0.0? The people that you have been listening to on the forums are IDIOTS. I saw someone making a point about a single pilot in a covert ops stopping him from ratting... wtf? If he rats in a pvp setup or has some friends nearby, where's the problem?
Covert ops should be countered by other covert ops, not numbers. All this change does is bring in the need for a 'silent running' mode on cloaked ships where they can't be scanned for (because the pilot is afk taking a dump), maybe this would be like siege mode where you can't move or do anything else until the end of silent running mode cycle. Actually ignore hat, the problem here is allowing cloaked ships to be scanned for.
You guys have reacted to a bunch of idiots on the forum (and you know what it's probably about 5 people on the forum with multiple accounts posting) who can't use their 20 man gang to gank a single ratter.
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mystic proton
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Posted - 2007.05.27 13:46:00 -
[16]
Of course, you'll be changing the ship class names then from "covops & recons" to "worthless & worthlesser" appropriately, right?
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hjjjugguu
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Posted - 2007.05.27 14:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: mystic proton Of course, you'll be changing the ship class names then from "covops & recons" to "worthless & worthlesser" appropriately, right?
Don't forget inversion will be reclassed "why did I waste my time developing this. No ones looking for any sites". Maybe covops ships are are useful as a auto targeter. This has not been thought out at all.
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paulcdb
Gallente Ascent of Ages Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.05.27 14:05:00 -
[18]
I agree this is a baaaad idea and while it'll still be fairly hard to pin down a covert ops ships as such because you can just keep moving, the problem is going to be when you NEED to be sat still gathering intel, like hostile pos's, stations, gates, etc...
If you have to concentrate on being scanned, it means you can no longer do the job of intel gathering because you have to constantly be moving, looking around for people heading in your direction, etc.
And at the end of the day it's crazy to give in to some people who just want risk free ganks
I really enjoy eve but i don't like the way it's going, where spamming whine posts = nerf'd!
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Wizzkidy
Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.05.27 14:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: paulcdb And at the end of the day it's crazy to give in to some people who just want risk free ganks
It's not just that though is it, they are implimenting this so scouts can scan out cloaked stealth bombers to look for traps
if you didn't have it it would be too easy to lay a trap and pwn a gang.
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xeom
Exit 13 Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.27 14:30:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Mephysto This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
So, now you're telling me that a solo pvper who's flying a recon around looking for targets and starts to get chased by a big gang can't use his cloak to avoid getting ganked to hell and back in a RECON ship, which is DESIGNED to cloak and remain undetected?
Also, a covert ops frigate which is designed to remain cloaked for COVERT OPERATIONS can be detected by being probed out?
Congratulations, you're looking to create more mini professions in Eve, and have effectively just completely destroyed covert ops scouting.
What a complete and utter pile of crap.
What V said. --- The chairman has spoken!
-Videos- Viciously Delicious New! Non-Entity
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar FSK23
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Posted - 2007.05.27 14:32:00 -
[21]
Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 27/05/2007 14:31:29 I see a big problem here with exploration to be honest.
You need to stay in space in low/no sec space for hours for some sites. You need the covops, as those have the 10% scan bonus. You need the cloak or you are toast. Exploration sites get multiplayer once they are found, not while being searched.
And, while probe scans are active, you can not warp as it invalidates your scan. In the quest probe phase this is not a big problem, those are active 1 hour - you have the time to cycle spots between scans.
But once you are, for example, down to sift range, it gets hairy. It is already very skill heavy to get 2 scans out of one probe, you barely have time to warp inbetween these two scans. You need to come back to that point often too. So laying a trap with snoops isn't really hard anymore I think. They live long and you get a lot of scans with the recon launchers low scan time.
Somewhat still manageable. And now let me introduce you, the rookie explorer in lowsec, with an astrometrics frig and a prototype cloak. Yes, pwned.
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Darpz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.05.27 14:39:00 -
[22]
as long as its dificult and takes time to scan the cloaked ship it should be fine (based on the type of cloak, protos should be fairly basic improveds somewhat hard and coverts take alot of time and skill).
also just make it so coverts have a low accuracy when you probe them (50km or so) so if someone was dedicated to getting that cloaked recon they can but there going to have to spend alot of time sweeping space to get it to uncloak
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hUssmann
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.05.27 14:59:00 -
[23]
Edited by: hUssmann on 27/05/2007 14:58:20
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Mephysto This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
So, now you're telling me that a solo pvper who's flying a recon around looking for targets and starts to get chased by a big gang can't use his cloak to avoid getting ganked to hell and back in a RECON ship, which is DESIGNED to cloak and remain undetected?
Also, a covert ops frigate which is designed to remain cloaked for COVERT OPERATIONS can be detected by being probed out?
Congratulations, you're looking to create more mini professions in Eve, and have effectively just completely destroyed covert ops scouting.
What a complete and utter pile of crap.
Agreed, What a bunch of*****.
*Shakes Head*
Ginger Magician > You are merely an effective ganker of haulers who runs at the first sign of combat. |
TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2007.05.27 16:04:00 -
[24]
Nice to see CCP give more power to the blobs.. way to go CCP.
It seems whining works.
And with this, what will the point in a cloak be then?
What range can you scan it down with? How close will you be when you get out of warp?
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MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.05.27 16:06:00 -
[25]
WoW your all very dense you cares if they know your there????????? you in local allready?
and what would happen if you have a big gang on top of you! oh noes!!!
err
they can't SEE YOU they can't LOCK YOU
in case you were wondering why the dev's have been ignoring you :P
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MotherMoon
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Posted - 2007.05.27 16:07:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Aramendel You people seem to think that probing = automatically decloaking. It isn't.
For example, a cov ops scouting an enemy blob at a gate. They probe me. If I am careful not go get more than 150k away from the gate all they can do is approaching the position I was at that moment. Where I am moving with 500 m/s away constantly. Oh noes. Whatever will I do? Even if they have 10km/s ceptors which move at once to that location I'll be already 5k away from it when they arrive. Good luck finding me. Nevermind that I can also warp to a spot on the other side of the gate (assuming I am halfway prepared) as soon as I see one of them moving towards me.
yay someone that doesn't just get mad because something is chaging and thinks for a moment!
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.27 16:09:00 -
[27]
Ughhhhhaa!!!
I actuley wanted them to fix cloaks so they were not overpowered in the sence that you could switch them on and go afk for 12 hours while your mere presence in local disrupts enemy operations.
I was thinking of a probe that takes ~10 minutes or more to find a cloaked ship, not this rubbish. This is all we need - something that takes ages, and isent very good, it doesent have to be - the mere knowledge of its existance eliminates the problem, if people dident know with 100% certainty that SSed + cloaked = invunerable then it would stop the process of people ganking, then cloaking+going afk for hours, THAT is the only issue with cloaks imho.
This is overpowered, and not required.
-
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Quartz Mine
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Posted - 2007.05.27 16:12:00 -
[28]
This better be just 'you have detected x amount of cloaked ships in the system' and give no location information on them. Right? right?
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.27 16:20:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Aramendel You people seem to think that probing = automatically decloaking. It isn't.
For example, a cov ops scouting an enemy blob at a gate. They probe me. If I am careful not go get more than 150k away from the gate all they can do is approaching the position I was at that moment. Where I am moving with 500 m/s away constantly. Oh noes. Whatever will I do? Even if they have 10km/s ceptors which move at once to that location I'll be already 5k away from it when they arrive. Good luck finding me. Nevermind that I can also warp to a spot on the other side of the gate (assuming I am halfway prepared) as soon as I see one of them moving towards me.
Unless a cloak means a high enough cut in signal size so that a snoop can't get a 0m acc hit then going afk for 3-4 min is enough to get killed even if you are moving 500m/sec.
You get a 0m hit, warp there, start a new scan, get a new 0m hit. You now know exactly what direction he is moving towards. Get the ceptor in and voila, decloaked in around 2-3 min. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.05.27 16:40:00 -
[30]
Keep in mind that the Coverts have a small sig radius and BS scan strength, scan results on them would be fairly inaccurate.
Recons however have sig radius about 20-30% higher than normal cruisers and are usually in the 25-30 range for scan res, so a fair bit easier to get accurate results for.
Just keep your afk ship flying in a random direction and by the time they get to your old position you are already a fair bit further away.
I wouldnt mind if cov ops cloaks get a bonus to sig radius once active though. Makes your ship harder to scan out then.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2007.05.27 17:00:00 -
[31]
well, the result you get on a scan is the LAST known position.
So you can be flying in a random direction all you want, they will still get the spot you are in at THE moment the scan is completed.
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Xtro 2
Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2007.05.27 17:04:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Mephysto This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
So, now you're telling me that a solo pvper who's flying a recon around looking for targets and starts to get chased by a big gang can't use his cloak to avoid getting ganked to hell and back in a RECON ship, which is DESIGNED to cloak and remain undetected?
Also, a covert ops frigate which is designed to remain cloaked for COVERT OPERATIONS can be detected by being probed out?
Congratulations, you're looking to create more mini professions in Eve, and have effectively just completely destroyed covert ops scouting.
What a complete and utter pile of crap.
agreed, cvops should never get probed out by any means, their balanced enough as is, CCP are just yet again caving in to all the people wheinging their afraid of afk cloakers who are somehow able to bring doom down upon them by their mere presence.
complete and utter cowturd.
Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder. |
Xtro 2
Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2007.05.27 17:05:00 -
[33]
Originally by: TZeer well, the result you get on a scan is the LAST known position.
So you can be flying in a random direction all you want, they will still get the spot you are in at THE moment the scan is completed.
resulting in the usual mass bs arrival with mwd on and drones out to decloak you.
still a rubbish idea.
Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder. |
Xtro 2
Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2007.05.27 17:07:00 -
[34]
if CCP is so desperate for a cvops finder, they should use their new BOMB method with a larger AOE just to counter recons/cvops that are suspected of getting close to a group.
None of this probe them from afar and kill em lark.
Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder. |
El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar FSK23
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Posted - 2007.05.27 17:11:00 -
[35]
Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 27/05/2007 17:11:01
Originally by: Hoshi You get a 0m hit, warp there, start a new scan, get a new 0m hit. You now know exactly what direction he is moving towards. Get the ceptor in and voila, decloaked in around 2-3 min.
That is the frightening thing. Two 0km hits and a t1 frig with mwd and you will bump into him.
The deviation at warp in will be a bit annoying, but if the two spots aren't too far away from each other....
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S34ghz
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Posted - 2007.05.27 17:44:00 -
[36]
If the chance is not too high, i dont think it will be, good luck finding a covert ops. If you dont see it on scanner and just on probes how do you know where to drop them? If i am cloaked on a real SS 12AU from gate to scann the gate there would be no chance a snoop can get me.
And as long as the covert-ops/recon is moving and not standing still at one place beside a gate or other objects you would expect them there is also a low chance to drop the probe on the right place.
Its a major nerf without question but i wont interupt my training for recon because of this.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2007.05.27 17:47:00 -
[37]
Kinda funny that CCP tells us they dont want all this blob warfare. But at the same time nerf anything that makes it possible to fight/avoid getting ganked by stupid amount of numbers.
They encourage people to bring as many people as they can.
We see this all the time. We kill some, they bring more numbers. We kill some more of them, they bring even more numbers. We still kick their ass, and they go: WTF?? We outnumber you 5:1, and we get kicked. Everybody to the nerf mobile. WHINE WHINW WHINE, NERF NERF NERF.
The people who are screaming for this is the people who cant fight small effective gangs. So instead of trying to get their things together, they get this, so they can scan you down while they heavily outnumber you. Then kill you without a fight.
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.05.27 18:00:00 -
[38]
Originally by: TZeer Kinda funny that CCP tells us they dont want all this blob warfare. But at the same time nerf anything that makes it possible to fight/avoid getting ganked by stupid amount of numbers.
They encourage people to bring as many people as they can.
We see this all the time. We kill some, they bring more numbers. We kill some more of them, they bring even more numbers. We still kick their ass, and they go: WTF?? We outnumber you 5:1, and we get kicked. Everybody to the nerf mobile. WHINE WHINW WHINE, NERF NERF NERF.
The people who are screaming for this is the people who cant fight small effective gangs. So instead of trying to get their things together, they get this, so they can scan you down while they heavily outnumber you. Then kill you without a fight.
Yup, if enough people whine they get their way, sadly. Couldn't agree more.
This nerf has also pretty much destroyed gameplay for solo recon pilots who use a cloak to their advantage while pirating.
As usual, the masses who are afraid of risk and PvP combat get their way. Typical.
Eve is softening into another "off the shelf" MMOG day by day, and it saddens me to see it to be honest.
>>> THE BEAUTY OF NEW EDEN <<<
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Sonho
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Posted - 2007.05.27 18:30:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Sonho on 27/05/2007 18:31:15
Originally by: TZeer Kinda funny that CCP tells us they dont want all this blob warfare. But at the same time nerf anything that makes it possible to fight/avoid getting ganked by stupid amount of numbers.
They encourage people to bring as many people as they can.
We see this all the time. We kill some, they bring more numbers. We kill some more of them, they bring even more numbers. We still kick their ass, and they go: WTF?? We outnumber you 5:1, and we get kicked. Everybody to the nerf mobile. WHINE WHINW WHINE, NERF NERF NERF.
The people who are screaming for this is the people who cant fight small effective gangs. So instead of trying to get their things together, they get this, so they can scan you down while they heavily outnumber you. Then kill you without a fight.
This man speaks the truth,basically this half attempt to nerf cloacking ravens rating is going to destroy recons .But i will wait until it hits sissy i HOPE that all covert op ships cant be scanned down....
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D Bogart
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Posted - 2007.05.27 18:39:00 -
[40]
Can't ccp make it so that covert ops cloaks fitted ships are incredibly difficult to find?
This would ensure that recons/covert ops scout frigs are still able to perform their current roles, whereas cloaked ratting ships/bombers etc would still able to be found (maybe based on signature radius).
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matrix666
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Posted - 2007.05.27 18:56:00 -
[41]
whats the point in training covert ops if you can be probed. this is silly, why bother with cloaks. destroys part of the game. i thought grown-ups played this game not kids who are scared of what they cant see!
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ghosttr
Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.27 18:58:00 -
[42]
Originally by: D Bogart Can't ccp make it so that covert ops cloaks fitted ships are incredibly difficult to find?
This would ensure that recons/covert ops scout frigs are still able to perform their current roles, whereas cloaked ratting ships/bombers etc would still able to be found (maybe based on signature radius).
Well I suggest that you wait until it hits sisi and test it for yourselves before you make too many assumptions.
Make Mining Better |
William Hamilton
Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.05.27 19:05:00 -
[43]
Finding cloaked ships should be like finding exploration sites.
Hard, but possible given enough effort.
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LoKesh
Amarr SH Brotherhood R i s e
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Posted - 2007.05.27 19:08:00 -
[44]
It would be nice to hear some more details on this from CCP.
Would it be possible to make activating a cloak increase your sensor strength or decrease sig radius such that the ship becomes HARDER to scan when cloaked?
The strength of these effects could be scaled based on cloak type - with proto-cloaks giving little to no bonues, improved giving 50% or so and covert ops making it ridiculously hard to get a hit.
RISE - Minister of Foreign Affairs
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BobsBrother
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:08:00 -
[45]
Ah once again CCP give into the whiners, is that all this game is to be now? i mean come on modules get nerfed that have been fine for years. Yet all the new children who cant get what they want stamp there feet have a paddy, whine a little and there you go Eve is now turning into WOW in space.
This game is turning into a joke.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.27 20:31:00 -
[46]
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 27/05/2007 14:31:29 I see a big problem here with exploration to be honest.
You need to stay in space in low/no sec space for hours for some sites. You need the covops, as those have the 10% scan bonus. You need the cloak or you are toast. Exploration sites get multiplayer once they are found, not while being searched.
And, while probe scans are active, you can not warp as it invalidates your scan. In the quest probe phase this is not a big problem, those are active 1 hour - you have the time to cycle spots between scans.
But once you are, for example, down to sift range, it gets hairy. It is already very skill heavy to get 2 scans out of one probe, you barely have time to warp inbetween these two scans. You need to come back to that point often too. So laying a trap with snoops isn't really hard anymore I think. They live long and you get a lot of scans with the recon launchers low scan time.
Somewhat still manageable. And now let me introduce you, the rookie explorer in lowsec, with an astrometrics frig and a prototype cloak. Yes, pwned.
No kidding
Exploration in LowSec without a cloak already means dead explorer. Take way the only defense they have when spending a couple of hours tracking down a site and guess what? No exploration.
And CCP is going to shift even common asteroid belts and mining to Exploration-based activities, making ships sit vulnerable longer without effective means of SSing andhiding just means fewer players in LowSec.
Cloaks mean a lot to people other than AFKers. If there is a problem with AFKers then nerf them. Cloaks mean a lot to more than 0.0 stealth bombers too. If you are nerfing somethng based on a new feature in the game BALANCE THAT FEATURE FIRST. Gads, don't screw up everything to do with a module if a stealth bomber could lay a trap undetected, in 0.0 space where most of us that use cloaks for other than AFK sessions will never go <-----------> Factional Warfare:
The LowSec wars which never happened. |
Keleborn
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.27 21:18:00 -
[47]
Covert Ops ships should never be able to be scanned down recons should be difficult everyone else fair game.
When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite but I don't waste my breath.
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar FSK23
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Posted - 2007.05.27 21:56:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Exploration in LowSec without a cloak already means dead explorer. Take way the only defense they have when spending a couple of hours tracking down a site and guess what? No exploration.
But with a frig and a cheap t1 cloak, it was worthwhile doing it. With manageable risk. You could be found by scanning for your probes if someone cared to do so, but once you brought your support and entered the site, deadspace and all, it was low sec. Loosing stuff was likely, esp. in and out, but not guaranteed.
Long rant short, it actually got people to go enter lowsec.
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korrey
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.05.27 23:25:00 -
[49]
Your Cloaked at a SS. You see an opponents probe on scan. You uncloak, and recloak. Your opponent just wasted a Scan probe..
I mean, how hard can it be to keep hidden from an enemy? The only thing this really affects is people that go AFK in a random system, if your active and watching the scanner for probes, you really still shouldn't get caught. ----------- Amarr- If you like to handicap yourself before the fight begins, then we may accomodate your needs surprisingly well. |
Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.28 00:09:00 -
[50]
With the ability to use local chat to identify a hostile, AND the means to probe a cloaked pilot, don't you think people will simply turtle up until the threat is removed?
Once it's been established there's a known hostile in your system, wouldn't you...
a) Suspend all vulnerable operations b) Assemble a "search & destroy" party c) Eliminate the offending pilot d) Resume vulnerable operations
I'm really not seeing any particular advantage in flying a cloak-fitted ship, other than *maybe* prolonging the inevitable, c.
Am I missing something?
This pretty much sounds like the end of solo pirating, espionage, and guerilla warfare to me. Or was that the whole idea?
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xeom
Exit 13 Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.28 00:50:00 -
[51]
Blob/capitals online. --- The chairman has spoken!
-Videos- Viciously Delicious New! Non-Entity
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Effei Gloom
Minmatar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.05.28 01:15:00 -
[52]
fitt speed to your cloaked ship... so you keep moving will make it even harder to uncloak you...
afk sitting cloaked all day should stop asap
- next minnie Outpost bpc me:5 available in 25 days - |
Davlin Lotze
STK Scientific Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.05.28 01:49:00 -
[53]
WORSE change ever...
I fly a mothership.
Do I get to dock now? Or.....what exactly is the counter for me to a hostile blob besides running to a POS(do I have to carry and deploy a POS in every system I'm in)?
OR, am I forced to fly with a blob of my own....even if I'm just moving from point A to B.
And lastly, and also somewhat important in practical terms, what of things in IRL coming up when I'm aggressed? Contrl Q will get me probed out, and now, cloaking will get me scanned down.
Perhaps motherships and other caps should be allowed to warp whilst cloaked if this idiotic change MUST go through.
Seriously CCP, what the h3ll are you thinking with this????????
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BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.28 01:50:00 -
[54]
I'm against invulnerability of any sort, which means that I'm a supporter of the idea that it should be possible to probe down a cloaked ship. However, there are some balancing things that really ought to be done if you're going to do this:
- cloaked ships should be harder to probe down than non-cloaked ships - covops should be harder to probe down than non-covops, even if not cloaked. If cloaked, it should take half an hour to pin down a covops. - logoff invulnerability should be replaced by automatic activation of any cloaking device installed on the ship. (The ship remains in space until you log back in. You want to be safe? Find a station or a really deep safe. Appropriate 'let the poor bastards log out' and perhaps even 'let the poor bastards fly something else once in a while' measures should be taken for supercapital pilots.) - nerf local ------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.28 02:00:00 -
[55]
Quote:
And lastly, and also somewhat important in practical terms, what of things in IRL coming up when I'm aggressed?
I'm really tired of that one. Yes, RL is more important than the game. That also means that RL is more important than your ship. **** happens. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. ------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. |
Davlin Lotze
STK Scientific Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.05.28 02:05:00 -
[56]
Originally by: BluOrange
Quote:
And lastly, and also somewhat important in practical terms, what of things in IRL coming up when I'm aggressed?
I'm really tired of that one. Yes, RL is more important than the game. That also means that RL is more important than your ship. **** happens. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.
Stop being a tool a$$shat.
Do you have any clue what is involved in building a supercap? Should someone lose that because the dog ran out of the house.
Save your noobish cliches for noobs like yourself.
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Pherusa Plumosa
Minmatar Freedom for All The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2007.05.28 02:42:00 -
[57]
Just build in a probability that a tech1 cloaking device does not work, maybe all 10 or 20 cycles. Voila, you can't cloak in enemy system and go afk for dinner and make it use that much grid & cpu on cloaking lvl1 that you wouldn't even think about building it on your ratting raven.
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Hiesi
Cryo Crypt inc.
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Posted - 2007.05.28 03:14:00 -
[58]
<sarcasm on> Nice, thankyou for destroying all the hours worth of training people have spent to use this speciailist ship class. Why should they have a benefit to all that training? <sarcasm off>
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Davram Bashere
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Posted - 2007.05.28 03:24:00 -
[59]
Wow what a bad idea. 10 out of 10 for failure devs. Way to cave into the roaming gank fleets and take away even more from small group pvp.
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Uchuu
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Posted - 2007.05.28 03:50:00 -
[60]
This means I will be able to take out people who afk cloak and harass in systems HURAAAYY!
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Dr Slice
kleptomaniacs
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Posted - 2007.05.28 03:53:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Mephysto This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
So, now you're telling me that a solo pvper who's flying a recon around looking for targets and starts to get chased by a big gang can't use his cloak to avoid getting ganked to hell and back in a RECON ship, which is DESIGNED to cloak and remain undetected?
Also, a covert ops frigate which is designed to remain cloaked for COVERT OPERATIONS can be detected by being probed out?
Congratulations, you're looking to create more mini professions in Eve, and have effectively just completely destroyed covert ops scouting.
What a complete and utter pile of crap.
QFT
The ability for ships that were designed to stay hidden (check the definition for the word 'Covert') has essentially been removed via probing.
Its like giving a thief a lockpick set made from fragile balsa wood.
How can any Dev with an ounce of logic be proud of this change? I'm completely bewildered.
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Ronzo Walrus
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.28 05:56:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Ronzo Walrus on 28/05/2007 05:55:15 Easy way to fix this: Make Claok unfitable on all ships but the ones that are actually supposed to have cloaks: Stealth bombers, covops, and recons.
Covops always spying while cloaked? Its the only thing they really do effectivly
Recons soloing in hostile systems, striking lone targets? Its basically all its good for
stealth bombers only use the cloak to lie in wait, especially now with bombs.
Try a different fix, such as making cloaks use fuel to run, and give recons/covops a reducion in cost. Make it so that a non-covops ship cant carry enough fuel to use a cloak for more than a few minutes. This removes the afk ratters/miners/missioner problem, but still allows covops/recons to do their job, and as a side affect motherships and carriers could hold enough fuel to do the same, as well as industrials (though I dont know if I excatly like that idea).
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Lyn Bunnions
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Posted - 2007.05.28 07:49:00 -
[63]
Why would we want capital ships to be able to use cloaks at all? The fuel solution sounds good, if you implement it make it so that anything larger than a BS needs more fuel for its cloak than it can carry in its hold. No more cloaked titan lameness.
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Moonaru Izu
Caldari I.Z.U Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:13:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Moonaru Izu on 28/05/2007 08:12:06
Now, I gave this comment and upcoming change some thought.
Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. What does this mean? We probably can find out tomorrow anyway, but as it is written down now, the only thing we can be certain of if is
- That a cloaked ship might show up in the probe result list (if your lucky, as always with probing)
that's it actually...
- We don't know hard it will be to find a cloaked ship
- We don't know what the accuracy will be
- We don't even know if it will be a warpable result.
Scenario
For arguments sake, lets assume worst case scenario, Cloaked ship is scanned down on the first try with a warpable 0-km result. This would mean after 25 seconds for a good prober (this can only happen if you know you are within 5NM from the cloaked ship and you can use Snoops from the start otherwise it would take more time and probes).
Result
So now you know that a cloaked ship is in the system and you could warp to its last probed location. If the cloaked ship would be sitting still you would probably land within 2000m and decloak it. However, if the cloaked ship would be moving you would jump to the location that it had a while back but it would not be there anymore. it would not decloak because most likely you would not land in 2000m range of it.
This all means that if a cloaked ship is on the move and has a cloaked speed so that is can cover 2000+m in about 10 to 20 seconds ,it would still be very hard to find, decloak and kill. It would only give intel on that it is in the system and very near
Conclusions
- For explorers this change is no treat at all, assuming people explore in covert ops ship which have a cloaked Velocity which is high enough. This is not bad in my book and I'm an active explorer myself so I know how it all works.
- This change would not endanger Stealth bombers for the same reason. There cloaked speed is high enough and even will be upped more in Rev 2. I guess we now know why The only drawback it would bring is that a covert scout could move trough a jump gate or warp to a belt and scan for cloaked bombers/recons and detect a trap. In my book this brings additional tactical warfare which is good (cat and mouse games!)
- This change would not endanger Recons, either in groups or solo. there speed is high enough as it is and they will still be able to dictate the fight (fight or flight).
So this is all good then?
NOPE because there is one group of ships that will be hit very hard by this change. This change WILL endanger all the ninja miners and haulers out there. Basicly because they cannot clear the 2000m in time due to their very low cloaked velocity. The same goes for some other ships that are not specially fitted for cloaks aswell, like battleships.
Suggestions for CCP
- If you put this on Sisi then make sure that all non-capital ships can clear the 2000m in 10 to 20seconds while fitted a cloak and while being cloaked. It think this only means adjusting the velocity penalty on cloaks so it could be easy to test and see if it works out
- Think about something (module or a rig) that automatically scans for Snoop probes within 5NM range and gives an indication when one is present. Why? because bashing the scan button of the directional scanner every five seconds gets tiresome after a while, is not my idea of fun and I reckon it will tax the server quit a bit when everyone starts doing it
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:33:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Amy Wang on 28/05/2007 08:36:39 Covert ops cloak equipped ships (edit:and stealth bombers) being scannable is like the worst idea ever together with the decloaking abilty the new 15km radius bombs produce its an not needed nerf to two entire shipsclasses and their specific roles.
For normal ships with cloaks I fully endorse this idea.
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Julio Torres
Chosen Path
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:48:00 -
[66]
When you are cloaked, you should remain undetectable. Unless this doesnt affect Covert Ops cloak. (It's pretty ********, you cant see a cloaked ship untill you crash into it, but it will light up on probes)
If theres a need for cloaking nerf, find another sollution. Best suggestion sofar, was the fuel requirement.
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Bic Drax
Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:55:00 -
[67]
IMHO along with the introduction of the cyno jamming module for towers there should be a cloak jamming module. If you have sov, throw one up and get rid of those pesky permacampers.
My .02
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Xtro 2
Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2007.05.28 08:58:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Dr Slice Why not have it so only Cov Ops Frigates, Recons and Stealthbombers can fit a Cloaking Device?
Why do Battleships, Carriers, etc. have the ability to fit Cloaks in the first place?
Is this not simple logic?
Designing a module for the specific intention of only three classes of ships to utilize, but making it available to ANY ship, doesn't make much sense to me.
or better yet have it so the only ships probeable are ones using standard non covops cloaks, leaving the covops users still unprobable.
Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder. |
SumDum
AirHawk Alliance Insomnia.
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Posted - 2007.05.28 09:03:00 -
[69]
Currently I own a couple accounts, and one of them being a specialized scout with many skill points into covert ops, scan probes and related skills. I am very disappointed to say the least, about CCP's decision to bow to public whining about afk cloaker's ruining their fun.
I would completely support this idea if it would only allow scan probes to detect non-cov ops types on a chance based system. Especially if it was further balanced by a ships size or signature radius to start with. There are certain ships that shouldn't be taking full advantage of a cloak, and agree with the general desire to keep people from being afk cloaked.
Stealth Bombers, Force Recon and Covert Ops ships by nature should never ever be detectable with any amount of scan probing. In effect you are nerfing an entire profession here, with probably some very predictable results.
I spend a majority of my time with my scout character working towards being a top-notch recon pilot. I spent my time training towards those skills, I have spent money on those mods back when they were extremely expensive. I have practiced and specialized an entire character towards being good at being a great spook.
And now I fear with the reckless firing of the nerf cannon, CCP may finally have ruined a good portion of the fun in this game for me. I have shrugged off all sorts of drama bombs pointed at CCP, I ignore 99% of all the whining about things being unbalanced and do not get involved in those discussions one way or another. I have trusted the dev team to balance things out and do the right thing over time. I understand this game is not static, but fluid and requiring adjustments here and there.
However, pointing the nerf-cannon at a whole mini-profession that has a large following like covert ops and recon work, might hurt CCP worse than any other current drama bombs. I beg you sirs to rethink your caving in to the whine and cheese crowd, think long and hard about this. You can be sure I will be paying attention to this and logging on frequently to the test server.
AHE wants YOU! |
DeMundus
The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2007.05.28 11:40:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: TZeer Kinda funny that CCP tells us they dont want all this blob warfare. But at the same time nerf anything that makes it possible to fight/avoid getting ganked by stupid amount of numbers.
They encourage people to bring as many people as they can.
We see this all the time. We kill some, they bring more numbers. We kill some more of them, they bring even more numbers. We still kick their ass, and they go: WTF?? We outnumber you 5:1, and we get kicked. Everybody to the nerf mobile. WHINE WHINW WHINE, NERF NERF NERF.
The people who are screaming for this is the people who cant fight small effective gangs. So instead of trying to get their things together, they get this, so they can scan you down while they heavily outnumber you. Then kill you without a fight.
Yup, if enough people whine they get their way, sadly. Couldn't agree more.
This nerf has also pretty much destroyed gameplay for solo recon pilots who use a cloak to their advantage while pirating.
As usual, the masses who are afraid of risk and PvP combat get their way. Typical.
Eve is softening into another "off the shelf" MMOG day by day, and it saddens me to see it to be honest.
QFT, If CCP really wants to do something about the 0.0 ratters that warps of and cloaks as soon as a local arrives, put more scrambling NPCs in.
You are destroying piracy and solo PvP yet again. I'm one of those ppl that like moving around with a carrier, BS(or BC) and a Recon pilot - I try to cover as much space as I can sometimes pirating. My carrier is not safe anymore anywhere. I can't have the comfort of a POS...
Mucho gracias por nada. Abandon all hope But take care of teh cake!11 - Immy |
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Peanut Swsh
Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.28 11:41:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Peanut Swsh on 28/05/2007 11:47:03 Edited by: Peanut Swsh on 28/05/2007 11:42:17 as i posted in the other thread:
as far as i understand the changes, i'm happy that the cloaked ships can now be scanned.
all the guys are just complaining that their solo-pwnmobiles will be nerfed... except they wont. most of the time you are attacking other players solo or even 2-3 hostiles, whats the chance of most ships having a probe launcher fitted? especially considering that they have 200cpu fitting requirement, which means any ship you are against which has one fitted is probably either a cov-ops (not really a threat), or seriously gimped. and if the other ship isn't a cov-ops then their scan time is 2+minutes. if you don't notice the probe on your directional scanner, and start moving then you deserve to be popped.
with your small sig radius (and most likely having cloak active will make it even smaller) you will be impossible to find except in the most flukish of incidents. only a dedicated cov-ops would be a threat to you. and they would still have to spam probes all over the system to find you if you have a half decent safe spot. and if they did spam, it would most likely be 20AU probes which have buggerall chance of pinpointing you in the right grid. by the time they have gotten close enough to get a 5au probe on you, well you know that they are there, and you just move. and they have to start all over again with 20au probes to even have a clue where you are. all they are gonna acheive is a lot of wasted time, and wasted isk in probes.
if you are fighting a gang with a cov-ops, well then you probably aren't gonna engage anyway, best idea is to just get out. or, just cloak and keep moving in one direction. i think the odds of someone scanning you out, then bringing enough ships and drone spamming to find you is extremely low. you could still go afk in a system cloaked in a deep safe. hell adapting ain't that hard, just pop the cov-ops while he is too busy watching his scan window.
most of the time these days if you are in a cloaker and you jump into a system, and people don't see you on directional scan, if they have half a brain, they will assume you are a cloaker, and take appropriate countermeasures anyway. If they are stupid, then well then nothing changes.
to summarize dedicated cloaking ships still have a massive advantage. its already pretty much impossible to probe down a ship thats bouncing safes in system. i've been in systems after a fight, trying to probe and kill that last cruiser the hostiles had, and its impossible, if they keep moving. a ship with a cloak? forgetabout it. the only difference if these changes are implemented, is that cloakers actually have to be at their pc, 'playing' eve (OMG YOUR KIDDING, I HAVE TO SIT AT MY PC?) like everyone else.
you are gonna argue its not realistic? nothing in this game is realistic. most people are just crying because cloaking devices don't operate the way their oxford dictionary definition makes them think they should. maybe the doomsday devices should actually create a doomsday, eve explodes.. you know, just to keep inline with cloaks.
in regards to haulers etc, well the solution is easy enough, just use a scout.
oh and the carrier comment, you carrier ain't safe anymore? have a cyno alt somewhere safe, if it starts to look bad then cyno out.
imo, it would be hilarious to fly a stealth bomber, cloaked in a safe with a rack of bombs. once you know you are actively being probed, then at your next safe, you wait a little longer, deploy a bomb, and wait for hilarity to ensue.
do this a few times, and you will see how many ships wanna be warping onto a cloaked ship. obviously bombs will be expensive, but then so are cov-ops ships :) and t2 insurance still sucks hard.
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Atalius Vinelgo
Caldari Balsarferskratchin Inc
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Posted - 2007.05.28 11:52:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Peanut Swsh Edited by: Peanut Swsh on 28/05/2007 11:47:03 Edited by: Peanut Swsh on 28/05/2007 11:42:17 as i posted in the other thread:
as far as i understand the changes, i'm happy that the cloaked ships can now be scanned.
all the guys are just complaining that their solo-pwnmobiles will be nerfed... except they wont. most of the time you are attacking other players solo or even 2-3 hostiles, whats the chance of most ships having a probe launcher fitted? especially considering that they have 200cpu fitting requirement, which means any ship you are against which has one fitted is probably either a cov-ops (not really a threat), or seriously gimped. and if the other ship isn't a cov-ops then their scan time is 2+minutes. if you don't notice the probe on your directional scanner, and start moving then you deserve to be popped.
with your small sig radius (and most likely having cloak active will make it even smaller) you will be impossible to find except in the most flukish of incidents. only a dedicated cov-ops would be a threat to you. and they would still have to spam probes all over the system to find you if you have a half decent safe spot. and if they did spam, it would most likely be 20AU probes which have buggerall chance of pinpointing you in the right grid. by the time they have gotten close enough to get a 5au probe on you, well you know that they are there, and you just move. and they have to start all over again with 20au probes to even have a clue where you are. all they are gonna acheive is a lot of wasted time, and wasted isk in probes.
if you are fighting a gang with a cov-ops, well then you probably aren't gonna engage anyway, best idea is to just get out. or, just cloak and keep moving in one direction. i think the odds of someone scanning you out, then bringing enough ships and drone spamming to find you is extremely low. you could still go afk in a system cloaked in a deep safe. hell adapting ain't that hard, just pop the cov-ops while he is too busy watching his scan window.
most of the time these days if you are in a cloaker and you jump into a system, and people don't see you on directional scan, if they have half a brain, they will assume you are a cloaker, and take appropriate countermeasures anyway. If they are stupid, then well then nothing changes.
/completely agree
cloakers were abusing the fact that they cannot be detected by probes so they would go afk in the system for days and then when they know that everyone is ignoring them cause they are afk most the time they get their ratting kill in.. rinse and repeat
as long as u still cannot see a cloaked ship on directional scan and it is rather hard to catch an active cloaked player then i see nothing wrong with this patch.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes The OSS
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Posted - 2007.05.28 12:25:00 -
[73]
Errrr????? And what exactly will be the defense of cov ops ships then? Do you realize this is a major nerf to 0.0 exploration? Please please please exclude the covops cloak from this.
I understand the need for a solution but the probes solution is a poor one when exploration requires you to stay put so here's my 2 cents:
Either:
1. Make a cloak so that it can only do 100 cycles and then uncloaks for 10 cycles (tweak numbers per desired effect). 2. Allow warping around when cloaked WITHOUT loosing your scan, i.e. allow the scan mechanic to function whilst warping around cloaked. -----------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
My Top 10 List |
SumDum
AirHawk Alliance Insomnia.
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Posted - 2007.05.28 12:35:00 -
[74]
Edited by: SumDum on 28/05/2007 12:38:02
Quote: all the guys are just complaining that their solo-pwnmobiles will be nerfed...
yeh, because my Buzzard is a solo pwm-mobile? Oh shoot you know what? You are right, I forgot I have trained the skill "Piercing gaze" and "Death by Staring" to level 6.
Quote: cloakers were abusing the fact that they cannot be detected by probes so they would go afk in the system for days and then when they know that everyone is ignoring them cause they are afk most the time they get their ratting kill in.. rinse and repeat
That is the lamest way I have ever heard of getting kills, and if this nerf to cloak is based on that scenario then CCP has truly been taken over by carebears.
AHE wants YOU! |
Mr Ange
Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.05.28 12:58:00 -
[75]
I have to say this is rather a silly thing to do CCP. What is the idea behind this? If its AFKers, well do what every other MMO does and kick AFK players after 30min.
You have effectively wasted my time in training and enjoyment.
Thanks CCP, thank you very much.
Ange
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Erotic Irony
RONA Deepspace
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Posted - 2007.05.28 13:18:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Erotic Irony on 28/05/2007 13:17:11 It is all contingent on the sensor strength of the probe and anything else that maybe different from the current schema.
Many of you seem to forget that the probing system has a chance element, given that a buzzard has a the sensor strength of a battleship and a miniscule sig radius, even a snoop clone for finding cloakers will have problems. Throw on an ECCM or backup array and they are untouchable. Same story in regards to the recons, larger sig radii and dramatically slower but the largest base non capital sensor strengths in game; again, a single mod to augment sensor strength and you are untouchable.
___ Oveur: Please read the rules of this thread, keep the discussion elsewhere.
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Professor Smartypants
The Cause
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Posted - 2007.05.28 13:25:00 -
[77]
If the problem is ratting 'macro' ships safespotting and cloaking, how about splitting the cloaks into a small, medium, large and Xlarge modules. Small for frigs, med for cruisers, large for BS and xlarge for caps and supercaps.
Make them so that travel setups are still viable but have them nerf the heck out of ratting setups (eating a ton of CPU etc).
Covert ops cloaks then wouldn't have to change at all and you could stop this probing cloked ships lark.
Actually how about ignoring the whines on the fourms and leave cloaking as it is? Don't nerf great people like the establishment who cloak their mom
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Nymos
Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.28 16:59:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Max Hardcase Just keep your afk ship flying in a random direction and by the time they get to your old position you are already a fair bit further away.
once you are at his "last known" spot you can drop another probe, approach that result (since it's on the same grid) and mwd towards that spot. with a set of drones dragged behind you there is a very high chance to get him. the scan result is the spot he is at as the scan finishes which is very accurate if you don't have to warp in anymore.
even though i hate macro ratters, why can't real players ninja rat somewhere or solo pvpers hide from a blob? if you want him so badly, lock down the system or if you want that ratter, make it unprofitable by putting a cov ops there.
--
Every time a carebear dies an angel gets their wings (murder one)
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aLinix
Gallente Abyss Restless Proper Response
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Posted - 2007.05.28 18:59:00 -
[79]
Does this innovation concern covert ops ships, e.g. force recon ships, or covert ops frigates, using cover ops cloaking device? Well, i demand now to make those scan probes cloaked itself! Yeah, yeah, leave no chances to those cloaked bastards!!!
/me is kinda upset with this innovation.
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Jaabaa Prime
M. Corp M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.05.28 19:23:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 28/05/2007 19:23:50 I read this a few hours ago and decided to think about it before exploding and replying.
I think that if a cloak is fitted to a ship who's speciality is NOT* having a cloaking device fitted i.e. Cov Ops, Force Recon or Bomber (strictly speaking also Cov Ops), then there should be a certain chance of scanning them down.
So a BS, Hauler or what ever, having one fitted to a ship that is not designed for it in it's role can be scanned down.
As long as this limitation is in there, then I think it is a good idea, but if a Cov Ops, which can't really do alot apart from scout and scan (not exactly a PvP ship is it ?) can be found using probes is defeating the object.
Just my 2 cents.
Edit: * Missed the above NOT --
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Aram Gishno
Caldari The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2007.05.28 19:49:00 -
[81]
Has there been any information on how this will go about? Regular probes and scan-time or specialized probes? If the "problem" that is being adressed is afk-cloakers who stay in certain systems for days, 23/7, then that can be fixed with a probe that has, say a scan time of 30 minutes or so. Voila, recon users and people/corporations who use cloaks as a tactical module to pick their fights and avoid blobs can still go about their business, while the cloaking afkers can be adressed.
It would be nice if someone, say CCP Fendahl, would give a reason behind this "fix" or nerf if you will. Why is cloaks a "problem" in some situations? Because with a scan time of about 30 seconds on covert-ops frigs, the whole idea of cloaks on anything but recons starts to be a bit silly.
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.05.28 20:22:00 -
[82]
I assume that they are very hard to probe out?
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Ange1
Gallente The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2007.05.28 20:52:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Ange1 on 28/05/2007 20:51:54 For someone like The Establishment who use cloaks on most of their ships (regardless of shiptype), this is a worrying change - especially for Hera - but I'm sure we'll adapt. It will not stop me from fitting cloaks as they will still remain an immensely useful tool for pirating. There are other uses besides hiding from things wanting to kill you for a cloak
As long as they don't break it like they first did with the scan probe changes, I'm sure we'll live
The Establishment is at your service...
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Dalanoria
The-Dark-Legion Ground Zeero
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Posted - 2007.05.28 21:18:00 -
[84]
This is assuming the probes dont DE_CLOAK you....If they do, kiss your 100 mill isk force recon gbye......
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ReePeR McAllem
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2007.05.28 21:20:00 -
[85]
Any chance of an update from the Devs, whether it will have the same impact on all cloaks?
My imput not that your bothered
This nerf will affect cloak, how much it affects the cloak should depend on the quality of the cloak its self. As it has been already said many times (the peoples word is important for business ) a covert ops cloak should be hard, very hard to detect. Whereby a prototype should be easy.
It only makes sence.
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PathetiQ
Gallente The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2007.05.28 21:35:00 -
[86]
wow im so happy recon ship are getting useless months of skill gone for nothing... isk gone for nothing... cloaking will now mean.... nothing i mean wtf ? its not because some poor guy ask to nerf it on the forum cause they die that the dev should nerf it...grrr! :(
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Blind Man
Kemono.
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Posted - 2007.05.28 22:11:00 -
[87]
Originally by: PathetiQ wow im so happy recon ship are getting useless months of skill gone for nothing... isk gone for nothing... cloaking will now mean.... nothing i mean wtf ? its not because some poor guy ask to nerf it on the forum cause they die that the dev should nerf it...grrr! :(
wow, you can warp while cloaked... l2p
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Snodipous
Amarr Blue Star Brotherhood Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.28 22:25:00 -
[88]
And as I replied in a previous thread:
Quote: Originally by: Peanut SwshEdited by: Peanut Swsh on 28/05/2007 11:35:08 all the guys are just complaining that their solo-pwnmobiles will be nerfed... etc. etc.
Sorry, but you're displaying a really fundamental ignorance of what it's like to fly a recon ship. It's really a different game than any other type of combat, and it's not easy. Being able to fly the ship and fit the mods needed to make it effective takes a lot of skill training, and flying the ship well takes a lot of careful consideration, patience, and courage on the part of the player. Getting a kill in a recon ship means something... it's a very different thing to achieve a kill flying a solo recon than blowing somebody up in a gate camp. Recon kills come at the end of a long and careful hunt, during which every choice you make has to be weighed with the fragility and low damage output of your 150-mil cruiser in mind.
Since you have local chat broadcasting your presence as soon as you enter a system, a big part of the tactics of a covert-ops pilot is to simply wait a long time in-system before making your move, so the targets get sick of hiding in their station and get on with life. You can't just jump in and warp to zero towards the nearest asteroid belt without knowing what's there... any rogue rock will decloak you and despite what you may think, a Force Recon in a stand-up fight is going to get raped.
Is sitting AFK in a cloaked recon ship cheesy and lame? Is it any more cheesy and lame than knowing instantly when a cloaked, hidden stealth ship enters and leaves the system by using Local Chat as an intelligence tool?
If recons become probe-able, we won't be able to out-wait the enemy any more. Which means recon pilots will have to change their tactics to favour more straight-up attacks without the stalking and *RECONNAISANCE* element. And as I said, a Force Recon fighting a well-prepared enemy is an expensive fish in a barrel.
In short, the stalking/assassination game that's possible with recon ships is, for me, the most interesting, challenging, and rewarding way to fight in Eve. The fact that this skilled and strategically-rich way of taking the fight to your enemy is being chiselled away because of people who are too antisocial, weak, or lazy to deal with the threat burns me. ___________ Composed primarily of meat.
I speak for my corp and alliance. Everything I say, they will back up 100%. They are absolutely willing to go to war to defend my forum antics. |
Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.28 22:35:00 -
[89]
What a load of bull.
Al this change is going to do is prevent cloakers from going afk.
Casual scans still don't detect you.
Your enemy still doesn't know where to deploy its accurate probes
You can still use your directional to see the probes they're using, and once you see something/someone found you warp away.
You are still untargettable when cloaked, so can still run gatecamps, gather intel, basically anything you do normally.
You are still a ***** to scan dow, what with the low signature radius and high sensor strength. II hope that being cloaked gives a hefty bonus to that as well, though.
You can still just warp away if they find you - it's not as if they can scramble you when you are cloaked, and they still show up on scanner as they're closing in on you. Of course, I wonder what you were doing in that safespot anyway...
I don't know about you, but I regularly fly covops and the only case where I would feel vulnerable to probing is when I was exploring, which required me to sit still for a few minutes each run. Which I wouldn't do with hostiles in system anyway, especially probing hostiles.
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Daerkannon Shimmerscale
Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2007.05.28 23:01:00 -
[90]
I think Neuromandis has one of the most reasonable posts in this topic.
Just as a radical suggestion, how about we wait for the changes to be put on SiSi, test how it works and then start whining? Please?
In case anyone is actually interested in, you know, testing how this works I'll gladly volunteer to sit around in system at a random spot in a) an industrial with a prototype cloak, b) a cruiser or stealth bomber with an imp cloak II, and/or c) a cov ops with a cov ops II cloak. Unfortunately I can't fly recons yet, so I can't offer that one up. --- Honest officer, the dwarf was on fire when I got here! Can't find a mechanical engineering agent? Need a non-Caldari Navy agent? http://www.eve-agents.com/ for all your agent needs! |
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axion laforge
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Posted - 2007.05.29 00:40:00 -
[91]
one aspect about the cloaking issue that no one has considered is the mining barges, yeah yeah,, 0.0 and low sec are no place for miners, but i know of groups of hulk pilots that use cloaks to protect their otherwise fragile ships, and getting a gang of say 5 hulks popped at 200mill a hull is a expensive hobby to recoup, even mining for megacyte,
who do you think is going to end up paying through the nose when the only scource's are mission runners and what the alliances can spare, recons at 200 mill anyone?
personally im worried that the 1 bill plus my corp invested into hulks is wasted and also the time invested to train them seems ccp are getting desperate to cater for the few players who like pretty lights,
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Icome4u
Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L
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Posted - 2007.05.29 00:45:00 -
[92]
Their goes my Falcon and Buzzard being useful... ______
Originally by: Vyger If I lose connection while walking around a station will my avatar run off in a random direction and go hide in a corner?
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The Doct0r
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.05.29 11:40:00 -
[93]
after a quick browse through this post, I'll hold fire on any comments.
I'm Waiting until CCP confirm what / how / can be done with regards to cloakers.
Whining & complaining is of no use at the mo until we know exactly how it's all gonna work.
We await your reply CCP......
. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Always ready to perform!!!! *cough*
_______________________________________
Always back up comments with hard facts |
BluOrange
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.29 12:03:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Davlin Lotze Edited by: Davlin Lotze on 28/05/2007 02:05:03
Originally by: BluOrange
Quote:
And lastly, and also somewhat important in practical terms, what of things in IRL coming up when I'm aggressed?
I'm really tired of that one. Yes, RL is more important than the game. That also means that RL is more important than your ship. **** happens. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.
Stop being a tool a$$hat.
Do you have any clue what is involved in building a supercap? Should someone lose that because the dog ran out of the house.
Save your noobish cliches for noobs like yourself.
Evading the profanity filter ftl.
RL is also > football, but you don't see football players going "Can we have this game some other time, my wife just rang."
And yes, actually, I used to do project management for an industrial corp and worked on a supercap project. ------ Agony Unleashed is recruiting. |
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CCP Fendahl
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Posted - 2007.05.29 16:52:00 -
[95]
Unfortunately it seems that the cloaking changes won't make it in for the next patch. The code changes have already been made, but got rolled back today because the system didn't work out as intended. However, we still plan to address cloaks in a patch in the near future (without nerfing covert ops of course).
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annab
Amarr FireStar Inc FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.29 17:16:00 -
[96]
Originally by: CCP Fendahl Unfortunately it seems that the cloaking changes won't make it in for the next patch. The code changes have already been made, but got rolled back today because the system didn't work out as intended. However, we still plan to address cloaks in a patch in the near future (without nerfing covert ops of course).
Covert ops not getting nerfed is this
1. The frig 2. The module 3. The role ie. covert ops frig and force recons
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CCP Fendahl
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Posted - 2007.05.29 17:31:00 -
[97]
Originally by: annab Covert ops not getting nerfed is this
1. The frig 2. The module 3. The role ie. covert ops frig and force recons
The ability of covert ops frigates to provide intel on enemy movements (otherwise they would be largely pointless IMO). Recons might or might not be handled differently.
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xenodia
Gallente Vengeance Factor
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Posted - 2007.05.29 17:43:00 -
[98]
Im going to reserve judgement on this until I see the specifics of how it will work. How hard it is to get a result, how close the result puts you, whether covert ops cloaks are immune to being probed out, etc.
If the nerf only affects your typical AFK cloaker in a t1 frigate with a proto cloak, im fine with it. But as a recon/cov ops pilot, I'll be pretty ticked off if all it takes to reduce my 500 mil + arazu setup to a pile of crap is one dude in a t1 frigate with scan probes.
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Meditril
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Posted - 2007.05.29 18:23:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Meditril on 29/05/2007 18:22:07 From point point of view probing cloaked ships is only tolerable if ALL of the follwing points are implemented:
- Probability for getting probed depends on signature radius and the cloak used. Small signature and Cov Ops Cloaking device = very very low probability.
- When a ship is probed then the type of the ship should not be shown! Otherwise there is no suprise momentum.
- You should not be able to warp at 0km to a cloaked ship. Minimum should be 5 to 10 km.
- MOST IMPORTANT: Remove cloaked ships from local!
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.29 21:30:00 -
[100]
Originally by: CCP Fendahl Unfortunately it seems that the cloaking changes won't make it in for the next patch. The code changes have already been made, but got rolled back today because the system didn't work out as intended. However, we still plan to address cloaks in a patch in the near future (without nerfing covert ops of course).
What didnt work as intended?
Why will you "not be nerfing covert ops"?
Certianly this goes against some of the basic tennants of game design, that everything should have a counter. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
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Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.29 21:55:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Goumindong Certianly this goes against some of the basic tennants of game design, that everything should have a counter.
Except your chat tab, of course.
Originally by: CCP Fendahl The ability of covert ops frigates to provide intel on enemy movements (otherwise they would be largely pointless IMO). Recons might or might not be handled differently.
And what about local? I refer you to CCP Hammer's comments from the "MOST WANTED LIST" dev blog posted on January 29th, 2007...
Originally by: CCP Hammer The issue of cloaked pilots showing up on local still needs to be addressed as well.
So when precisely is that going to be addressed?
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LymeM
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.05.29 22:04:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Goumindong What didnt work as intended?
It made some very large ships less impossible to find.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.30 00:19:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Blue Pixie Snip
We've had 23 pages of this, no need to start the arguement in another circle. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.30 00:55:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Blue Pixie Snip
We've had 23 pages of this, no need to start the arguement in another circle.
No one's forcing you to post here or respond to my posts.
You said everything should have a counter. I agree with you, and that includes your precious chat tab. Don't like it? Tough. As you said, any exception goes against "the basic tenants of game design."
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.05.30 01:16:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Blue Pixie Snip
We've had 23 pages of this, no need to start the arguement in another circle.
No one's forcing you to post here or respond to my posts.
You said everything should have a counter. I agree with you, and that includes your precious chat tab. Don't like it? Tough. As you said, any exception goes against "the basic tenants of game design."
Local is not a ship nor a module. It is its own counter. Its like saying "nerf space, space need a counter!", or "nerf right clicking on modules"
removing local would unbalance the game towards assaulting. Since you could not ever determine if or when players when in any system. Ratting in low-sec/0.0 would be impossible. Just like nerfing space would ruin autocannons, lasers, and missiles. Its not a ship or a module to be countered, its a game mechanic akin to ships moving.
You would need to be constantly scanning and probing all the time, and your probe time would need to be under 1 minute in order to not be attacked. Basically this means everyone needs to fly cov-ops.
Clearly that wont work.
Removing local provides no balance. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.30 02:14:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Blue Pixie on 30/05/2007 02:13:17 Local was intended to promote socialization, nothing more. The devs haven't just implied as much, they've outright said so, on numerous occasions. How on earth is it its own counter?
And you wouldn't need to constantly scan. Oveur has suggested that changes to local would *only* apply to null-sec, and even then you'd still have an indication of how many pilots were in your current system. You'd *only* need to scan when first entering a system and whenever the pilot count increased. That's it. Players too lazy, incompetent or over-confident to do so deserve what they get, and should consider pursuing a career in Empire.
Your apparent sense of entitlement aside, the local chat tab as it is implemented grossly undermines stealth and the very premise of covert specialization. Rationalize or candy coat it however you wish, but that's indisputable.
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Barbara Nichole
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Posted - 2007.05.30 03:28:00 -
[107]
Quote: Certianly this goes against some of the basic tennants of game design, that everything should have a counter.
Cuz what we really want is another perfectly balanced MMO version of paper, scissors, rock. ...not.
I think you should only have a low percentage chance of detecting the cloaked ship exists in the first place. Success would mean the cloaked ship or pilot shows in local. Actually finding the ship should be a needle in a haystack endeavor. Its signature is reduced to that of a microwave oven or some such; finding that ought to be next to impossible. I say next to.. Sure, give them a miniscule chance but not enough to be worth the scan probe wastage. However, unless you use a highly local directional scan you shouldn't be able to get an easy fix in my opinion.
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n'yleth
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Posted - 2007.05.30 05:20:00 -
[108]
Edited by: n''yleth on 30/05/2007 05:21:59 Edited by: n''yleth on 30/05/2007 05:19:54 Edited by: n''yleth on 30/05/2007 05:19:43 I don't really care what happens, I kinda accept that the person on the loosing side almost ALWAYS cry's foul. It's just life. I know it ****ed me off to get blown to bits by an uncloaking BS in my Retriever, but that's just how things go.
We don't need to nerf Battleships. The game lacks mystery as it is. The combat is absurdly simple, like a defective child's game of shove (smash, smash, NOS NOS again and again and again every fight a million times over). We can vary the degree of our shoves, but it's not the same.
The game is more and more failing to caputre what I thought it should capture. We are space captians. The vast uncertain frontier of planetary space. You shouldn't know who's in local, you shouldn't be able to get eight dozen guys together and obliterate some lone ratter (like me ) without so much as a pip. That people cloak battleships dosen't show an abuse, but a desperatly needed addition. It returns some of the mystique to an otherwise bland game.
"Oh, will he decloack...will he not?" may seem irritating to performing operations, but your doing mining, ratting, etc. in space. It's not a friendly place, and you can get blown up in a second.
This stuff about "you shouldn't fly what you can't loose" just smacks of idiocy to me. So I should train, and work and bust my butt for YEARS to achieve something, something....special, but it can be invalidated because the risk/reward scheme dosen't fit right?
It's an old idea that you win the war by choosing the Battle. It ANGERS me endlessly that I got blown up by a cloaker, but it's something I'd like to do. Not to greif, or exploit, but to pick my wars, set up my people, and add a new dimension to the game. As it stands, and as it may be yet again, systems will be secure. That, to me, is quite messed up.
I imagine I'm a minority. I want to one day fly a cloaked BS, uncloak at an enemy gank-gate, kill someone and cloak to get away. Because it took me hours to wait, and hope, and stalk, and I get my reward. I respect that most people play Eve like there working at a job. To them it's about BALANCE rather then feel or fun. That's cool. It just makes the game even less popular.
In conclusion, nerf cloaks all you want. Nerf NOS and gangs, and anything else you can imagine. Because I don't know when, but a while ago I think someone decided something about the direction of the game. Everything supports it. So many nerfs. But maybe it's our fault for exploiting it. I can't say. It's just indicitive of a far larger problem then specifically cloaks to me. They're just the lasted symptom. But hey, what do I know? I'm just a noob :)
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Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.30 09:00:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Neuromandis on 30/05/2007 08:59:26
Originally by: Blue Pixie Local was intended to promote socialization, nothing more. The devs haven't just implied as much, they've outright said so, on numerous occasions. How on earth is it its own counter?
And you wouldn't need to constantly scan. Oveur has suggested that changes to local would *only* apply to null-sec, and even then you'd still have an indication of how many pilots were in your current system. You'd *only* need to scan when first entering a system and whenever the pilot count increased. That's it. Players too lazy, incompetent or over-confident to do so deserve what they get, and should consider pursuing a career in Empire.
Your apparent sense of entitlement aside, the local chat tab as it is implemented grossly undermines stealth and the very premise of covert specialization. Rationalize or candy coat it however you wish, but that's indisputable.
The problem is not what it was originally intended to do or if it undermines stealth. You're playing a GAME, and as such it needs balance. You may be sure that if and when local changes, the effect will remain the same - you will have a tool to detect and probably assess ships that will give you FoF discrimination ability, or you'll kill eve because the defender, in any case, will be at such great disadvantagess as to be impossible to defend, period. I don't care to list each and every reason why that's bad, but you may be sure that if what oveur suggests happens, sovereign 0.0 space will NOT count as null-sec, mark my words.
Originally by: Barbara Nichole
Quote: Certianly this goes against some of the basic tennants of game design, that everything should have a counter.
Cuz what we really want is another perfectly balanced MMO version of paper, scissors, rock. ...not.
We don't? Strange. I was under the impression that games were about balancing and rock-paper-scissors is the perfect example of how that was achieved when balancing unequal stuff.
And for the snipped part: You don't want the covops to be probeable? Well, news for you - practically they're not, cloaked or not cloaked. Fit a few ECCM or Sensor backups in your midslots-lowslots, with the already absurd sensor strength they have to begin with and the low sig radius, good luck. And if you ARE lucky and DO manage to get a low-accuracy hit, the cloak takes care of the rest.
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Carenthor Loon
Minmatar Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.05.30 10:45:00 -
[110]
Hmm...I was able to scan out a cloaked Arazu with a Snoop last night on the test server - it only showed up once in 30-40 scans, but had an accuracy of 0m when it did so.
I also had a lot of trouble scanning out anything other than shuttles, noob ships and frigs - I couldn't even scan out a Domi that was 0.9AU away in about 20 attempts, despite said other ships showing up just about every time. Perhaps scanning in general is borked on the test server at the moment?
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Mephysto
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Posted - 2007.05.30 10:45:00 -
[111]
No idea if its been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but the current situation with cloaks and probes is:
Cloaked ships can NOT be probed.
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Siepie
Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill
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Posted - 2007.05.30 11:26:00 -
[112]
Originally by: CCP Fendahl
Originally by: annab Covert ops not getting nerfed is this
1. The frig 2. The module 3. The role ie. covert ops frig and force recons
The ability of covert ops frigates to provide intel on enemy movements (otherwise they would be largely pointless IMO). Recons might or might not be handled differently.
Agree 100% with the covert ops frigates, but the force recons also have there part as going undetected. They are primary used for more of a behind enemy lines kinda work. Say for example im in a force recon, sneaking up on a small enemy gang. One of the gang drops a probe and they see me 25km or so away from them. From my part the whole "recon" bit has just been ruined. If it were me I would make all ships that use the covert ops cloaking device unable to be probed. Because no matter what there doing cloaked at the end of the day they are meant to be hidden.
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annab
Amarr FireStar Inc FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.05.30 11:56:00 -
[113]
Originally by: CCP Fendahl
Originally by: annab Covert ops not getting nerfed is this
1. The frig 2. The module 3. The role ie. covert ops frig and force recons
The ability of covert ops frigates to provide intel on enemy movements (otherwise they would be largely pointless IMO). Recons might or might not be handled differently.
Force recons are meant for guerilla warfare. Cause problems behind enermy lines getting intelligence, ambushing, and sabotage logistics.
So my idea is make the recon ships deteactable as in I know what your flying and how far away you are but no warp to. Like most guerilla warfare you know they are there but no where they are.
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Admiral Nova
Strike Team Nova
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Posted - 2007.05.30 12:04:00 -
[114]
I don't really have a problem with cloaked ships as they are, they problem I have is cloaked ships remaining cloaked indefinitely without any user intervention. If you want to be able to terrorize a system, that's fair, but you should at least have to be at the keyboard.
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Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.30 12:34:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Neuromandis The problem is not what it was originally intended to do or if it undermines stealth. You're playing a GAME, and as such it needs balance.
Look, either you believe it's reasonable for players to take advantage of stealth to attack when you least expect it and are most vulnerable, or you don't.
Thanks to local, you have an immediate, 100% reliable means to detect a potential hostile in your system. A process that neither requires skill, training or any specialized equipment to use.
If your idea of balance is allowing a cloaked pilot to get the best of you only when you're too lazy to glance at a chat tab, AND you want the opportunity to hunt him down at YOUR discretion, then there's really no room for discussion here.
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Mad Rage
Amarr Dark Crystal Corporation
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Posted - 2007.05.30 14:39:00 -
[116]
so now cloak will be detected by probes that defeat the purpose of cloak ships i fly a assult frigate with a cloak the reason is to hide from probers its the only way i can get in and out without getting killed since i got a 14 second delay to be able to target now will be detected by probes now that going to kill the only safe ablity to avoid been detected by probe hell CCP just remove the cloak then making it useless
am not a whiner but this is going too far there tactical avantage about the cloak people cry they got killed by a cloak ship but why nerf it i use a cloak when i mission in low sec so i don;t get killed by 10yr with no fly or do some information and so on
well this is sad for ccp nerfing the cloak like this anyway the point of my rant is that a "Cloak" is to "HIDE" without been seen or Detected by any Means its to sneak would you put a loud kitty Bell on a assassin?
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Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.30 21:30:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Originally by: Neuromandis The problem is not what it was originally intended to do or if it undermines stealth. You're playing a GAME, and as such it needs balance.
Look, either you believe it's reasonable for players to take advantage of stealth to attack when you least expect it and are most vulnerable, or you don't.
Thanks to local, you have an immediate, 100% reliable means to detect a potential hostile in your system. A process that neither requires skill, training or any specialized equipment to use.
If your idea of balance is allowing a cloaked pilot to get the best of you only when you're too lazy to glance at a chat tab, AND you want the opportunity to hunt him down at YOUR discretion, then there's really no room for discussion here.
First of all, local cuts both ways. When you are speaking of "true" behind enemy lines (outpost systems et.c.), which anyway is absurd in and of itself to expect free unmolested ganks in your enemies' back yard. It IS absurd.
If you are talking about less populated 0.0, local cuts both ways. You are also immidiately informed of your prey's presence, of presense lack of support for your prey et.c.
Apart from that, it is reasonable for people to use cloaks to attack when you least expect it. What is NOT reasonable is to deny an opportunity to turn the tables. And the "at your discretion" part is also absurd. You ALREADY hunt HIM at your discretion. Thus, your argument is completely one-sided. you will still be able to hunt him at your discretion, now there will just be means to fight back.
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Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.30 22:33:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Neuromandis First of all, local cuts both ways. When you are speaking of "true" behind enemy lines (outpost systems et.c.), which anyway is absurd in and of itself to expect free unmolested ganks in your enemies' back yard. It IS absurd.
No more absurd than expecting free, unmolested mining/ratting in a system you're supposedly claiming sovereignty over.
Where are your allies? Where are your scouts? Where are your escorts and gatecamps? Do you lack the manpower, resources and/or motivation? Are you sovereigns in name only?
And what did you think? Because you've installed an outpost, adversaries should have to RSVP in advance before you should have to muster up a defense force? That you should be immune to guerilla warfare?
Originally by: Neuromandis Apart from that, it is reasonable for people to use cloaks to attack when you least expect it.
When, where and how? Give an example wherein you'd find it perfectly acceptable to get caught off-guard by a cloaked pilot. Better still, give an example where you *could* get caught off-guard by a cloaked pilot.
Originally by: Neuromandis What is NOT reasonable is to deny an opportunity to turn the tables.
I have absolutely no problem with a counter for cloaks... so long as cloaking pilots have a counter for local.
Originally by: Neuromandis And the "at your discretion" part is also absurd. You ALREADY hunt HIM at your discretion. Thus, your argument is completely one-sided. you will still be able to hunt him at your discretion, now there will just be means to fight back.
Really? I'll still be able to hunt at my discretion?
Thanks to local, you know I'm in your system. And via probing, presumably, you'd at least be able to determine whether or not I'm AFK.
So you've got an active, at-the-keyboard hostile in your system. You know this with 100% absolute certainty. And you're claiming that I still have the initiative? That I can attack at my discretion?
How exactly is that going to work? Are you going to just go about your business, carelessly mine, rat, haul... without precaution? You're not going to escort or suspend your vulnerable operations until I've left... or you've podded/driven me out?
What's the best case scenario here? A stalemate? I get to lead you on a wild goose chase? Instead of being the hunter, I become the hunted?
You think my argument is one-sided? Respectfully, I suggest you take a look inward.
As I said before, either you believe it's reasonable for players to take advantage of stealth to attack when you least expect it, or you don't. It's fairly obvious you don't think it's reasonable. Why not just admit it?
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Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.31 21:17:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Blue Pixie No more absurd than expecting free, unmolested mining/ratting in a system you're supposedly claiming sovereignty over.
On the other hand, the "free" and "unmolested" part does not exist at all. It's just that you need a reasonable force or a very good attack to be able to damage. You still don't seem to understand that attacking home systems is not - or at least should not - be something done at your leisure, and RISK FREE to boot.
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Where are your allies? Where are your scouts? Where are your escorts and gatecamps? Do you lack the manpower, resources and/or motivation? Are you sovereigns in name only?
And what did you think? Because you've installed an outpost, adversaries should have to RSVP in advance before you should have to muster up a defense force? That you should be immune to guerilla warfare?
These words do not substitute an argument, as such I cannot refute them. They are irrelevant to the conversation. Having escorts does nothing. On the other hand, it is STILL absurd that you believe that a person should be able to FORCE everyone to fly with a gang because he paid 100mil for a cloak.
Originally by: Neuromandis Apart from that, it is reasonable for people to use cloaks to attack when you least expect it.
Originally by: Blue Pixie
When, where and how? Give an example wherein you'd find it perfectly acceptable to get caught off-guard by a cloaked pilot. Better still, give an example where you *could* get caught off-guard by a cloaked pilot.
I don't know, and I don't care. If cloaks cannot do what you want, don't fit them.
Originally by: Blue Pixie
I have absolutely no problem with a counter for cloaks... so long as cloaking pilots have a counter for local.
As I have said before, local is a necessity. It may change, but be prepared to have something analogous to it when it does. That's just an assessment. I don't care either way. I understand its necessity and can accept it just fine, but if someone has a good alternative, I'm all ears.
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Thanks to local, you know I'm in your system. And via probing, presumably, you'd at least be able to determine whether or not I'm AFK.
So you've got an active, at-the-keyboard hostile in your system. You know this with 100% absolute certainty. And you're claiming that I still have the initiative? That I can attack at my discretion?
You have no business being safe in hostile system anyway. Stealth attacks are directed at opportunity targets or the lone sheep, not your enemy's headquarters. What yo describe is a direct assault, and should be IMPOSSIBLE without a fleet. You may risk your fast ship and get the hell out if you have the balls, but expecting to be there taunting your enemy after each kill is STILL - guess what? - absurd. You should IN NO CASE be able to camp at your enemies space - that's what "friendly space" is for. A raid is a hit and run, and the run part is usually chased. Having fresh marshmallows between kills in your enemy's space is -hmmm- absurd? That you can do it now is a mistake. That it suits your playstyle and you like it does not make it any more reasonable.
Originally by: Blue Pixie
How exactly is that going to work? Are you going to just go about your business, carelessly mine, rat, haul... without precaution? You're not going to escort or suspend your vulnerable operations until I've left... or you've podded/driven me out?
You can be sure that 90% of the kills are not done in cloaked ships, but from raiders. Precaution? Sure, it will always be needed. You don't need the cloakers to kill people in enemy space. Cloakers are just the lame "i-win" way of doing it.
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Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.31 21:25:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Blue Pixie
What's the best case scenario here? A stalemate? I get to lead you on a wild goose chase? Instead of being the hunter, I become the hunted?
Yes and yes. Or rather, you should choose a more suitable way to go about what you want, a way with more favorable possible outcomes. For example, you should try actually being FAST about it. Rest assured, people are getting plenty kills in hostile asteroid belts.
Originally by: Blue Pixie
You think my argument is one-sided? Respectfully, I suggest you take a look inward.
Maybe. As of now, it has not been proven.
Originally by: Blue Pixie
As I said before, either you believe it's reasonable for players to take advantage of stealth to attack when you least expect it, or you don't. It's fairly obvious you don't think it's reasonable. Why not just admit it?
It is reasonable to take advantage of stealth to attack an unprepared foe. It is unreasoneble to be immune to attack from ANY foe yourself while waiting for a suitable target. The second is A LOT stronger than the first - no aggressor should ever be immune to aggressing, end of story.
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Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.05.31 22:04:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Neuromandis
Originally by: Blue Pixie
As I said before, either you believe it's reasonable for players to take advantage of stealth to attack when you least expect it, or you don't. It's fairly obvious you don't think it's reasonable. Why not just admit it?
It is reasonable to take advantage of stealth to attack an unprepared foe. It is unreasoneble to be immune to attack from ANY foe yourself while waiting for a suitable target. The second is A LOT stronger than the first - no aggressor should ever be immune to aggressing, end of story.
Word. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums |
Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.05.31 23:44:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Neuromandis I don't know, and I don't care.
That pretty much sums it up.
You keep strawmanning that I'm asking for immunity, when nothing could be further from the truth. I'm asking for a reasonable counter to local, one that would complement a reasonable counter to cloaking; a change in mechanics that would give both sides of this issue a fair chance.
As for immunity, that's more or less what you're ascribing to for yourself.
In addition to being adamant against any change to your precious chat tab, unless an opponent has the resources to mount a direct assault on your headquarters, in a fleet of battleships, supercapitals or suicidal interceptors, they have no business coming to your backyard? You should be allowed to rat and mine, unmolested at your leisure?
How convenient.
Why not just be honest and admit you don't want cloaking in EVE? Period. At least that I could respect, instead of this ridiculous duplicity.
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Titas Agor
TITANS OF PEACE
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Posted - 2007.06.01 01:34:00 -
[123]
was a little bit shocked when i saw a post about this again... and i guess i knew it was comming sooner or later, had to be a catch for the bombs i suppose. I hope that this is not implemented as topic says. I dont feel it does justice to having a cloak in the first place if you are able to find a cloaked ship with probes.
Yet again i'll say this, if its down to ppl sitting IDLE while cloaked in an enemy system, then have some kind of timer, where u can only be cloaked for short periods at a time instead of hours. If they go idle and decloak, its the players fault if they get found and shot up.
Im really trying hard not to go overboard here, and if probes have no affect with covert ops frigates then i guess thats definately something, but still... for cloakers, we're gonna have to assume that EVERYONE can see you now, hence no point in a cloak.
all im going to say on the subject because its not even implemented yet on test server, but to say im a lil anoyed that this will eventually happen, is compltely silly.
(take away the bloody bombs if thats whats making the descision.) as i like the stealth b. as it is anyway, the whole bomb situation has blown everything out of portotion on so many levels, its a constant 50/50 battle with ppl who like and dislike it, and then a cloaking penalty to go with it so ppl could find u is rediculas.
just bring back mines if this is making your descision to do this.
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Phaethon Prime
Prophets Of a Damned Universe
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Posted - 2007.06.01 05:46:00 -
[124]
I'm a covop/recon pilot (with recon 5 trained), but I have to say I find this thread hilarious. Essentially, people are complaining that the change may deprive them of the one advantage we deprive everyone else of -- the lack of complete safety (the safety which lets us afk happily in an enemy's home system for 12 hours straight). If you are in a covops/recon ship, you can warp while cloaked, and between full-speed movement and warping you'll be impossible to catch if you're at the keyboard. Likewise, people seem to forget that to probe effectively, you need a covops yourself -- so to catch one of us, you have to be one of us.
It seems very reasonable to me that another pilot with the same skills and ship as me should be able to find me and kill me if I'm afk in space.
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Sailon
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Posted - 2007.06.01 08:10:00 -
[125]
i agee if protocloak ships can be probed but probing recons or coverts is wrong its just stupid that you 170-500mil recon get pwned by almost rookie ship when he comes with probe launcher
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Damned Force
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Posted - 2007.06.01 09:59:00 -
[126]
yeah drop more rats, with more scramblers. thats the solution against miners and ratters. But nerf cloack so make a lot of problems. If u travel in lowsec or 0.0 u need to forget on RL u cant make even a 5 min out because a tel call or other natural needs :). And if u meet in a system a roaming gang, u cant do nothing. u simply dead. I donno how would it works with cov ops and recons, but if they can be probed out too it would kill this ship classes. And about capitals. If u move your capital ship from A to B u need to go with a 20 man gang? or u take a pos with as someone sad? :) If u jump a system, wait to regen cap and a gang arrives, what can u doo? wait till u dead? Yeah u can say "u can fight u r in capital", but u tried to fight a gang with an arazu in a capital(i mean now for example carrier)? Even a single arazu can lock your targetting range down to useless, while the gang slowly can kill u, not even count the new cap kill bombs. So with this move u again help just big gangs. no solo move in 0.0, no solo piratting.
So think again about the thing and for the change use your mind too and not just the ideas of your friend in gangs!
PS.: give normal bonus to caldari ships! +kin damage is useless(almost, good just again guristas :-) )! So change on rof bonus or Kin, therm damage or something what is usable.
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Admiral Winter
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Posted - 2007.06.01 10:16:00 -
[127]
Ok. I've been reading through these posts all night long, so I'm a bit sleep-deprived. Also, this is my very-first-time-ever post to EVE forums, so this might not be the right place for it, but I'd like to share some thoughts.
As an explorer, I don't like the idea of being probed while cloaked, so frankly, I'm in favor of leaving the situation as it is. But that doesn't seem like it's going to be the way of it.
After reading the forums addressing this subject, I've come up with a solution that attempts to address the viewpoints presented. Forgive my presumption at assuming the role of game developer for a moment, but I think this mostly addresses all of the various objection to the current schemes.
Make the following changes:
1) Make Local voluntary.
2) Make ship directional scanner auto-refresh every 5 seconds when open.
3) Implement a "Local scanner" or some such in the scan panel. If there's a friendly station in the system, or a friendly POS with a "local scanner" module attached, then this tab acts like the directional scanner, but 360 degrees and shows the entire system. Basically the station does the scanning and downloads it to all friendly ships in the system.
Or maybe funnel the "local scan" directly into the overview.
4) Cloaking devices provide a bonus to signature radius of cloaked ships -- maybe 50% for prototype, 75% for advanced and 90% for covert ops.
5) Covert Ops frigates get an additional bonus to sig radius while cloaked to make them undetectable, or virtually so, by probes.
6) Autolog if idle for more than, say, an hour.
This addresses the local issue, by making it opt-out, but still gives people a way to keep tabs with what's going on in the system (the Local scan idea). Since cloaked ships still wouldn't show up on directional scan, they wouldn't show up on local scan either, meaning the covert hunter warps in and cloaks. Maybe someone spotted him during the brief period of being undetected, maybe not. Importantly, in 0.0, you'd at least have to have a POS up in order to get the intel you want on the system in which you have claimed sovereignty.
Cloaked ships would be probeable, but it'd be a pain to do. Since D-scan refreshes every five seconds, explorer pilots wouldn't have to keep clicking the "Scan" button every so often to make sure they weren't being probed. Best of all, afk squatters would get auto-kicked after the logout period, which would eliminate what seems to be the biggest complaint. Presuming, of course, that they weren't scouted out by system defenders.
These are the ideas of my insomnia-addled brain. They're rough, and could probably use some refinement, but what I'm trying to do is propose a compromise that leaves everyone more-or-less satisfied while addressing the biggest complaints.
Have at it
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:27:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Sailon i agee if protocloak ships can be probed but probing recons or coverts is wrong its just stupid that you 170-500mil recon get pwned by almost rookie ship when he comes with probe launcher
Care to try to explain how a cov ops pilot NOT AFK can be ebven remotely under danger?
Its simply impossible to kill one even if your probing drops you under 5 km of the ship. Just stay there paying attention on overview.. and aligned to next SS or planet. If somethign changes in overview click warp... done you are 100% safe!
Stop being whinning childreen!!!
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Damned Force
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Posted - 2007.06.01 11:40:00 -
[129]
BUT UNDERSTAND THAT THE GAME IS NOT THE WHOLE WORLD, AND CAN HAPPEND THAT U NEED TO GO 5-10 MIN AFK!!!!!!
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Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.01 12:06:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Damned Force BUT UNDERSTAND THAT THE GAME IS NOT THE WHOLE WORLD, AND CAN HAPPEND THAT U NEED TO GO 5-10 MIN AFK!!!!!!
All right. I understand it. Now tell me, what would you do if you DIDN'T have a cloak fitted? Do the same when your RL life calls. Or do only cloakers have real life? That's the strangest argument yet in defense of cloaking. It's a warship module, not an afk-mode module. This argument is so much the more reason for it to change.
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mamolian
M. Corp M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.06.01 12:15:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Mephysto This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
What a complete and utter pile of crap.
Jesus ****, this along with heat, makes me want to go write an Eve mod for Freespace 2.
Devs wtf are you upto?
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Theo Samaritan
Gallente UNSC Manufactoring Corp
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Posted - 2007.06.01 12:15:00 -
[132]
just as long as they mirror the skills when they next updates Traqn I will be happy. ______________________________
"To fight a war on the table, you must be able to fight a war on the front." |
Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.01 12:32:00 -
[133]
This whole argument thread borders on lying
First, you take my words out of context.
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Originally by: Neuromandis I don't know, and I don't care.
That pretty much sums it up.
Now let's try this in context: A question that asks how something that should not happen by my assessment is replied not to have an answer.
Originally by: Blue Pixie
When, where and how? Give an example wherein you'd find it perfectly acceptable to get caught off-guard by a cloaked pilot. Better still, give an example where you *could* get caught off-guard by a cloaked pilot.
Originally by: Neuromandis
I don't know, and I don't care. If cloaks cannot do what you want, don't fit them.
I don't know what kind of war you think we are in, but that is pretty unsportful
Let's see the rest, then...
Originally by: BluePixie
You keep strawmanning that I'm asking for immunity, when nothing could be further from the truth. I'm asking for a reasonable counter to local, one that would complement a reasonable counter to cloaking; a change in mechanics that would give both sides of this issue a fair chance.
That's blatant lying as well. First of all, you don't need to ASK for immunity - it's already there. A cloaked vessel is immune to everything. Asking for a nerf to local is just asking to be ultra effective at KILLING stuff, as well, without compromising the "immunity" state to boot. So Im not strawmanning anything.
Originally by: BluePixie
As for immunity, that's more or less what you're ascribing to for yourself.
Lying again? Let's see. So you basically mean that if cloakers can be probed, people won't be killed in their home systems any more? Because that's what it would take for people to enjoy "immunity" in their home systems. I just ask that people don't organized cloaked barbeques there.
Originally by: Blue pixie
In addition to being adamant against any change to your precious chat tab, unless an opponent has the resources to mount a direct assault on your headquarters, in a fleet of battleships, supercapitals or suicidal interceptors, they have no business coming to your backyard? You should be allowed to rat and mine, unmolested at your leisure?
Lying and twisting the argument again. Any class of ship is capable of doing raids, fast ships are most suited naturally, interceptors are not suicidal at all, and I never mentioned supercapitals. We're talking about ganking stuff and you're bringing supercapitals and sovereignity wars into the argumnent? A single ship or small gang can raid just fine. Interceptors, interdictors, force recons, some cruisers can gank people just fine. They just risk themselves doing it, so it is fine. Also, I never said they have no business coming to a 0.0 alliance homesystem. I said they should have no peace there, and it should not something to be done risk-free and at their leisure. No sitting by the fire, so to speak.
About the adamant part, of course it's also lying in your part. As I have ALREADY EXPLAINED as well, I have no problem changing local - it just won't go away without giving something to replace it. That's not a suggestion, it's a basic fact: space flight in the style of eve requires tactical tools, friend or foe recognition, a basic sense of not being alone and a lot more. No matter what we argue, these will still need to be there.
Also, at this point you are making me repeat myself - all these have been explained in detail above.
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Why not just be honest and admit you don't want cloaking in EVE? Period. At least that I could respect, instead of this ridiculous duplicity.
I have no problem with your disagreeing but cutting out the only phrases you could use, and even then out of context? Conclusions that are not coming from your arguments? And what is this last part about? Putting stuff in my mouth? FYI, I mainly fly covops and recons. I just don't like lame invulnerability.
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Jaabaa
Minmatar Dental Drilling Corporation
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Posted - 2007.06.01 16:12:00 -
[134]
Originally by: CCP Fendahl
Originally by: annab Covert ops not getting nerfed is this
1. The frig 2. The module 3. The role ie. covert ops frig and force recons
The ability of covert ops frigates to provide intel on enemy movements (otherwise they would be largely pointless IMO). Recons might or might not be handled differently.
IMO it should be the role of the ship. i.e. Force Recon (not Combat Recon) & Covert Ops (including the Bombers) are specifically designed for cloaking and their bonuses reflect that role.
Role: Force Recon Ship
- Part of description: Force recon ships are the cruiser-class equivalent of covert ops frigates. While not as resilient as combat recon ships, they are nonetheless able to do their job as reconaissance vessels very effectively, due in no small part to their ability to interface with covert ops cloaking devices and set up cynosural fields for incoming capital ships.
- Recon Ships Skill Bonus: ... and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Role: Covert Ops Frigate
- Part of description: Designed for commando and espionage operation, its main strength is the ability to travel unseen through enemy territory and to avoid unfavorable encounters.
- Covert Ops Skill Bonus: -98% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Role: Stealth Bomber
- Part of description: Specifically engineered to fire cruise missiles, stealth bombers represent the next generation in covert ops craft.
- Covert Ops Skill Bonus: ... and 25% bonus to cloaked velocity per level
So, due to their very nature and role, they should not be scannable when cloaked, under any circumstances, even if they don't have a Cov Ops Cloaking Device II fitted. -- Jaabaa - CEO - Dental Drilling Corporation |
Githtakai
Gallente Crab and Krawdad Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.06.01 20:57:00 -
[135]
Originally by: CCP Fendahl
Originally by: annab Covert ops not getting nerfed is this
1. The frig 2. The module 3. The role ie. covert ops frig and force recons
The ability of covert ops frigates to provide intel on enemy movements (otherwise they would be largely pointless IMO). Recons might or might not be handled differently.
Great... excuse me while I go stop training Recon 5 until this gets decided "Soon". I'm curious what is different about the Recon ships and covert ops. Is it just the difference in DPS?
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Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.06.01 21:40:00 -
[136]
Taking things out of context, am I? Let's review then...
Originally by: Blue Pixie Look, either you believe it's reasonable for players to take advantage of stealth to attack when you least expect it and are most vulnerable, or you don't.
Your response...
Originally by: Neuromandis ...it is reasonable for people to use cloaks to attack when you least expect it.
Yes, I'm only citing the relevant portion. Feel free to elaborate how it's taken out of context.
Originally by: Blue Pixie When, where and how? Give an example wherein you'd find it perfectly acceptable to get caught off-guard by a cloaked pilot. Better still, give an example where you *could* get caught off-guard by a cloaked pilot.
Your answer?
Originally by: Neuromandis I don't know, and I don't care. If cloaks cannot do what you want, don't fit them.
So, it is reasonable/acceptable for people to use cloaks to attack when you least expect it, you just don't know or care how they could accomplish that?
Oh wait...
Originally by: Neuromandis Now let's try this in context: A question that asks how something that should not happen by my assessment is replied not to have an answer.
Something that should not happen by YOUR assessment. Now we're getting closer to the truth...
Originally by: Neuromandis I don't know what kind of war you think we are in, but that is pretty unsportful
Correct me if I'm wrong, but getting caught off-guard by a cloaked pilot is now "unsportful"?
You insist it is reasonable to take advantage of stealth to attack an unprepared foe. But when asked to cite an example of an acceptable circumstance wherein that could take place, you don't know or care (what a shock). You follow this by explaining that it's something that should NOT happen. Furthermore, you imply the very practice is "unsportful."
How is that not a blatant contradiction??
Originally by: Neuromandis That's blatant lying as well. First of all, you don't need to ASK for immunity - it's already there. A cloaked vessel is immune to everything. Asking for a nerf to local is just asking to be ultra effective at KILLING stuff, as well, without compromising the "immunity" state to boot. So Im not strawmanning anything.
O Rly?
Originally by: Blue Pixie I have absolutely no problem with a counter for cloaks... so long as cloaking pilots have a counter for local.
Not good enough?
Originally by: Blue Pixie I'm asking for a reasonable counter to local, one that would complement a reasonable counter to cloaking; a change in mechanics that would give both sides of this issue a fair chance.
Now who's lying and twisting the argument?
I am asking to compromise the "immunity" state.
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stoats
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2007.06.02 02:05:00 -
[137]
Another victory for fans of bedpans.
If someone wants to afk in the same spot in a non covert ops cloaking ship - then yes - you should be able to scan them down after awhile. However, it should not be as easy as it currently is in SiSi - you might as well not even have the cloak.
Covert Ops ships will probably be fine (although they shouldn't need to be, you should not be getting 0m results on covert ops cloaking ships), as you can carry enough speed to get away from the warpin point even while afk.
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maarud
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.06.02 02:34:00 -
[138]
Tbh, you should be able to probe ships that weren't designed to equip cloaks. It should be hell-of-a hard, but do able with alot of determination.
What you do, once you probe it is a different story. So you've found the ship, but it's cloaked. You should not be able to approach the result. Wait the guy out, warp a ship in with smart bombs, deploy drones. Use your imagination. Probing cloaked ships should be uber uber hard.
Glad it's not making it into the next patch.
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
Neuromandis
Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.02 02:48:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Neuromandis on 02/06/2007 02:50:13
Originally by: Neuromandis Now let's try this in context: A question that asks how something that should not happen by my assessment is replied not to have an answer.
Something that should not happen by YOUR assessment. Now we're getting closer to the truth...
Misunderstanding. "Should not" as "I don't think it likely", not "should not" as in "must not".
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Originally by: Neuromandis I don't know what kind of war you think we are in, but that is pretty unsportful
Correct me if I'm wrong, but getting caught off-guard by a cloaked pilot is now "unsportful"?
Nope, wrong. I meant the "forum war" part, and by "unsportful" i meant the way you presented the arguments, not the force-recon gank. Nothing to do with mechanics, that part.
Originally by: Blue Pixie You insist it is reasonable to take advantage of stealth to attack an unprepared foe. But when asked to cite an example of an acceptable circumstance wherein that could take place, you don't know or care (what a shock). You follow this by explaining that it's something that should NOT happen. Furthermore, you imply the very practice is "unsportful."
How is that not a blatant contradiction??
As I just said, "unsportful" refers to mis-using my arguments, getting them out of context, and putting words in my mouth, and not the use of force-recons. In any case, to tone things down a bit because I really would like this to be a discussion and not a flamefest, I retract that characterisation as a possible misunderstanding. And, as I said before, by "should not happen", I meant "not likely to happen", not "I don't want it to happen" or "it must not happen"
Further, as I said thrice now, suprise ganking should be possible, but it has nothing to do with the discussion of probing cloaked ships. Gank your heart out if you want, as long as it is not with impunity. We can discuss local in another thread if you wish. What I said refers to how they are used offensively. I was speaking about their state of invulnerability. That's how it's not contradictory. As I said before, I am not against changing local, but *REGARDLESS* of that cloakers MUST NOT be untouchable.
Originally by: Blue Pixie I have absolutely no problem with a counter for cloaks... so long as cloaking pilots have a counter for local. Not good enough?
Well, no problem there. Still, my own take on the situation is that regardless of how offensive cloaking is balanced (i.e. is it possible to truly hide your presense), cloaking is still a formidable module to load up, and it should not provide invulnerability. I think we can rest that point there. I understand you want local changed and a counter to cloak, I want counter to cloak and maybe local change, leave it at that.
Originally by: Blue Pixie I'm asking for a reasonable counter to local, one that would complement a reasonable counter to cloaking; a change in mechanics that would give both sides of this issue a fair chance.
Now who's lying and twisting the argument?
I am asking to compromise the "immunity" state.
Perfect. No problem with that either.
And, going jsut a trifle off topic, a few ideas of how this could work - keep in mind, I just post them so you understand I mean it - they are and NOT as "final solutions", they would need work:
a) Long range auto scanners (like overview) that display all non-cloaked ships in space, with FOF capability. Distances and icons for grid only. Long-range craft are only identified as "friendly" or "unknown", close range (grid) overview works as always. Cloaked ships are NOT displayed, but can be probed.
b) "Local" information only available in Empire, and in 0.0 systems with sovereignity there is "local" info only for the controlling alliance. Cloaked ships do NOT appear, but POS scanners exist that allow their presense to be detected around a xxau around them.
c) Similar stuff, that hides cloakers but give tools to find 'em
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Mud Pandemonium
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.06.02 07:12:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Mephysto No idea if its been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but the current situation with cloaks and probes is:
Cloaked ships can NOT be probed.
Dunno if the rest of you saw that.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2007.06.02 10:05:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Davlin Lotze
Originally by: BluOrange
Quote:
And lastly, and also somewhat important in practical terms, what of things in IRL coming up when I'm aggressed?
I'm really tired of that one. Yes, RL is more important than the game. That also means that RL is more important than your ship. **** happens. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.
Stop being a tool a$$hat.
Do you have any clue what is involved in building a supercap? Should someone lose that because the dog ran out of the house.
Save your noobish cliches for noobs like yourself.
Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Newbie and veteran alike. What makes you think a bigger purse or investment should make somebody immune to this basic rule? EVE is a harsh place, right? For everyone. Stop using that phrase when you can't live by it.
Now everybody stop complaining and adapt. Or admit you're not half as die-hard as you always pretend to be.
Oh and yes, I am covops and recon pilot.
_________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. - |
Belial02
Amarr The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.06.03 09:49:00 -
[142]
The problem isnt recon ships or coverts.
The problem isnt cloaking devices themselves.
The problem is ships that arent supposed to cloak and therefore shouldnt be able to.
Just make it so it needs tons of CPU and so that specifically designed cloaking ship get a 99% bonus on fitting cloaking devices, not the others ones.
Originally by: Omeega diplomacy is f1, f2, f3, really...
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Spooky Woman
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Posted - 2007.06.04 17:47:00 -
[143]
Well...
I think the problem with cloaking is the "invulnerability" that is achieved from being cloaked, for which there currently is no counterà
Cloaked ships being scanable is a solution to that problem... butà
Another solution might be to use the new "heat" concept, and make it so all cloaking devices always overheats. This way cloaked ships would not be scanable, but they could not just go AFK while cloaked. The only difference being that the overheat rate of the cloak would have to be much slower than the current overheat rate, so the ship would have a minimum cloak time before the cloak takes too much damage and offlines. The cloaked ships would then have to return to a safe port to repair, before venturing back to unsafe space.
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Random Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.05 12:12:00 -
[144]
This truely sucks.
Yet another move ( after the wcs nerf ) to make 0.0 space corp/alliance only.
I remember reading somewhere that ccp would like more people to move to low sec and 0.0 away from empire.
Well this is exactly the reverse of that. the only people who can survive now in 0.0 are large gangs.
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Lord DarkStar
Gallente Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
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Posted - 2007.06.05 13:51:00 -
[145]
ok,i really disapprove of nerfing force recons and cov ops ships,i fly a force recon and have bin doing so for almost 2 months now,i actively use it in pvp as a scout and then light backup to assist the ones who do the dps to kill the target,ive killed sniper ships with it because they were foolish and sat in the same spot,now if they were able to scan me out,see that im slowly coming to them,they will just warp off and there goes the entire ambush that sometimes takes 30 mins to setup,i agree that afk cloaked in a system for days on end is a bad thing but sometimes you have to be in the same area for a reason,such as listed above on this nerf i do believe its more related to the cloaked bombers,i see how it would be unbalanced in reguard to 10 ships sitting on gate cloaked,uncloak , bomb , warp away , but that should not change the recons and cov ops ships that have no real power in combat (force recons do but not dps)
i would really love to hear from the devs about this in reguard to are you going to nerf cloaks in general or all the ones below cov ops,
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Rosalina Sarinna
KHM Corporation
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Posted - 2007.06.05 16:02:00 -
[146]
I was suprised to see this thread, but my opinion is pleasently suprised - with some qualification...
1. Cov-Ops ships need to be a lot harder to scan than regular non-stealth ships. 2. Requires good scanning skills to be able to scan for tham at all (possible new skill called "Cloaked Ship Scanning" or similar).
The rest seems open really until testing on them is conducted, but I'm really positive about the changes that may ensue (as long as it doesnt totally destroy a Covert-Ops role).
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Chou Yung
Energy.
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Posted - 2007.06.05 17:22:00 -
[147]
I agree this change is a load of rubbish. Not only does it defeat the point of small gang pvping i.e I jump into a system, oh no there is 6 recon ships on scan i'll jump staright bak out, but it also hampers larger operations as well. For instance when capital ships are protected with cloaks. Im pretty sure that when cap ships are being scanned down by enemy fleets while afk cloaked you are going to have some pretty loud flames, now please for the love of GOD stop nerfing eve. What is the point in spending time....and ultimatly MONEY training for t2 ships and modules when CCP just nerf you bak to the stone age and they become useless crap anyway. So please please please sort it out be4 you ruin the game for every1 except for your CEO with 50 noobs in cruisers at his side. Chou |
Clean
Mercenaries of Andosia Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.06.05 18:59:00 -
[148]
This is one of the biggest mistakes you guys can do !
All you gain trough this is making pvp in 0.0 even more a blob thing and 0.0 for the carebears wich are allready very save trough thier alliance inviourment an even better isk farming place ! The game got nerfed so much that pvp in 0.0 for non-blobers flying into hostile space comes down to vagabonds/nano ships interceptors and recons
I for myeself fly a lot in small gangs 2-3 peeps into hostile space and we have to face constantly 20 man gangs after we killed a single target ( just like poping into a bees nest) With recons beeing not realy tankers or damage dealers its allways dangerours enough attacking a target in a hostile main system ...
Covet Ops should be undetectable under all means..thier purpose is to give intel so the only harm they do is giving out information And Recons are the only way if you dont wanne fly nano speed ships to pvp in hostile space
Yeah i know some peeps might say now that i also should have a risk and belive me flying i have it cuz i dont focus on haulers .....but at least there should be a ship that should be able to be in hostile space for longer than one jump and gets poped than ! Well i hope the npc farmers in 0.0 feel a lot better now couse thier ratting place is now even more save than empire
Biggest mistake ever ...thanx to all thw whines of carebears !!
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Effei Gloom
Minmatar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.06.05 19:44:00 -
[149]
First of all we getting the "fly with speed forever"
so you hit MWD wait till speed is up and cloak
not easy to catch a cloaked ship flying with 1500ms.
How would you do it and how long would it take?
Maybe time enough to go 30 min afk?
- next minnie Outpost bpc me:5 available in 25 days - |
Ansuru Starlancer
The Phoenix Rising Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.06.06 07:35:00 -
[150]
LMTAO @ the people who just started in with the idiotic idea that cloaks being scannable = encouraging blob.
As they are now, cloaks encourage people to blob even while ratting. It's not very profitable, but ratting ships tend to be a bit more costly than combat ships, and taking several people along because you have no way of detecting when the s*** is about to hit the fan and get out is the ONLY way to sa***uard your investment, which just leads to slower gains and frustrated pilots who'd rather be doing something besides grinding isk.
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Hermia
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.06.06 11:42:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Jaabaa
Originally by: CCP Fendahl
Originally by: annab Covert ops not getting nerfed is this
1. The frig 2. The module 3. The role ie. covert ops frig and force recons
The ability of covert ops frigates to provide intel on enemy movements (otherwise they would be largely pointless IMO). Recons might or might not be handled differently.
IMO it should be the role of the ship. i.e. Force Recon (not Combat Recon) & Covert Ops (including the Bombers) are specifically designed for cloaking and their bonuses reflect that role.
My view as well
I think its a stupid idea in the first place but if they have to do it, then at least leave the specially designed ships alone.
If this is going to become the norm, where one group whines about another group's use of seemingly 'overpowered' tactics, then the situation is not great. After reading all the guff about clocks, this is probably whats happening. It was said earlier in this thread that players cant except loosing with a numbers advantage so it MUST be exploitation of some kind, its ridiculous. More ridiculous that Development listens to it.
Its lost on me why afk cloakers is such a big problem, people say its avoiding combat or it provides immunity. To me its just an indication of broken warfare mechanics and why players have no immediate goals to engage with small numbers. The new POS system coming soon hopes to address this but its not enough in my opinion, blob forming will still be prevalent and continue with all its ugly side effects.
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Tzesaeia
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Posted - 2007.06.21 10:36:00 -
[152]
Ok in the beginning of this thread it was stated that it won't affect most cloakers expect the miners and ratters. That is wrong.
The worst case scenario will be a bit different.
You are seen in local so everyone knows you are there. They will call backup. A enemy POS will scan for you. Backup will arrive through a jump gate maybe about 10 alliance ships because they gather from all alliance systems within maximum a minute because they can jump through 5 systems with the help of pos jump gates.
They will sit therself over the jump gates blockade the system and the cloaker is 100% dead. So every cloaked ship would have to panic and leave the system if he sees somebody comming into local. So cloaking will be completly useless for spying. What the hell is this?! CCP HELP US and remove local in 0.0 only in 0.0!
I made a Thread about this check this out cloakers if you want your role back.
Noforced in local in 0.0 space anymore instead Alliance local
The new POS scanning and jump gates features must be balanced!!! Or 0.0 will become hisgh sec space of the alliances!
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Chainsaw Plankton
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Posted - 2007.06.21 23:01:00 -
[153]
rather sure i saw in another post that the probes wont be able to detect cov ops cloak only the prototype cloak and improved.
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Pociomundo
Gallente World Order The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2007.06.21 23:37:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Pociomundo on 21/06/2007 23:41:05
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Mephysto This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
So, now you're telling me that a solo pvper who's flying a recon around looking for targets and starts to get chased by a big gang can't use his cloak to avoid getting ganked to hell and back in a RECON ship, which is DESIGNED to cloak and remain undetected?
Also, a covert ops frigate which is designed to remain cloaked for COVERT OPERATIONS can be detected by being probed out?
Congratulations, you're looking to create more mini professions in Eve, and have effectively just completely destroyed covert ops scouting.
What a complete and utter pile of crap.
Yep it's total BS like this that makes me wonder who exactly is calling the shots at CCP.
Covert Ops and Recons become essentially pointless after this when their entire strategy is gone, they are flipsy as hell and so what happens when a scanner gang warps an inty to you or even just a Dictor starts probing people warping to them and dropping a bubble on a Recon that won't get out in time as the Inties etc warp in and lock it down quicker than you can get out that bubble. Being a Recon is gonna be a complete joke if you constantly have to stay aligned to something and start drifting off while being covert watching a gate or station etc.
Fast ships moving around even a 5km warp in point with drones circling wil uncloak a ship easy.
And all of this, because of whines about people putting basic cloaks on ratting ships, that's the real issue here, the isk farming botters that safespot and cloak, cov ops and recons have been in the game and balanced for ages. It's the basic cloaks that should be detectable.
NOT the covert ops cloaks which are specifically trained for and designed to go on just 2 sets of ships.
Cov ops II cloak may as well be renamed "Spray paint your ship black and hope no one see's your silhouette II"
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SRRAE
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Posted - 2007.06.22 09:26:00 -
[155]
You can tell who are the pirates on here. They are complaining the most.
Its not just recons or covertops which are at risk. If anything its normal ships with cloaks which are at risk as they are easy to scan, cant move fast when cloaked and cant warp cloaked.
The fact is there is nothing you can do to stop recons from picking off people. Even if you had a fleet of 100 there is nothing you could do, as the recon pirate would do what all pirates do when odds are not in their favour, run and hide.
if the cloaked ship is moving around they wont find you, its that simple. Its more to stop people warping off cloaking to be safe and going AFK. And to stop the cloaked alt who simpley sits cloaked 200k from a gate 23/7.
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2007.06.22 09:54:00 -
[156]
Edited by: Amy Wang on 22/06/2007 09:55:41 Specialized cloaking ships are balanced for their role, they have relatively low dps, meaning a single recon wont break the tank of a equally skilled bc or bs.
Even groups of recons struggle several minutes to kill single well tanked ships and if the victim is organized enough that is plenty of time to get help to drive the squishy recons off (if you are not organized enough you deserve to die).
Notable exception being ofc the pilgrim which is quite strong on its own with drone damage bonus and nos bonus, but there are 3 other recons for which the above is true.
About the dps Covert ops do we dont need to talk I guess and stealth bombers are balanced with the inability to warp cloaked, their low hp and their dps isnt all that fancy anyway.
So you see everything is balanced here (maybe except for the pilgrim but thats a different matter).
Normal ships with cloaks however arent balanced atm.
The small sig resolution reduction is a joke compared to the benefits a cloak gives and that is why there are more and more normal ships running around with a cloak fitted, ratters and even pvpers alike.
The fact alone that the cloak has taken the place of the wcs in this proves its imbalance.
We badly need a nerf to non specialised ships fitting a cloak, be it making it findable with probes, making it use cap or fuel, only working for a limited amount of time, taking a % based number of cpu and/or powergrid thats severly limiting (e.g. 50%) or a combination of the points just listed.
There is a reason specialized cloaking ships exist, if your ship isnt specifically build to interface with a cloak, there should be more to it then just losing a bit cpu, scan resolution and a high slot to fit one, much more.
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Mag's
MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2007.06.22 11:06:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Mag''s on 22/06/2007 11:06:47 I have no issue whatsoever with none Covert-Ops ships, with cloaks fitted, being detectable. I do however, think it's utterly ridiculous, that a specialist Covert-Ops ship could be scanned.
Can you honestly say, that the whole 'would take longer to scan' system would work well? I love CCP, but their track record on similar ideas, it's not good. (EW anyone?) _________________________________________________________
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Neco Furyan
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.23 18:14:00 -
[158]
My 2cents
I'm a noob to cov-ops (I'm like 12 days from piloting a buzzard).
I like the probing option.
I hope CCP takes WWII destroyer vs. submarine battle model into account designing this game mechanic.
A cloaked ship at standstill should NEVER be found IMO
A moving cloaked ship (we not talking warp speed)... well... they should be found with some creative.
Lets just say the probability for a cloak ship to be probed within 5KM of itself should only increase if that ship is moving... and the type of ship as well.
If its at a standstill, probed within 30KM is what I suggest... should give a BS fleet time to warp out when a cloaker is detected.
I have never found a instance where a cloaked ship was found and destroyed (except for Star Trek - The Undiscovered Country), but take that likely... I ain't no sci-fi expert.
All this makes good gameplay to me... old WWII wolf pack tactics... ooo cov-ops is going to be fun now.
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Brixer
Dai Dai Hai
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Posted - 2007.08.14 13:19:00 -
[159]
Originally by: CCP Fendahl Unfortunately it seems that the cloaking changes won't make it in for the next patch. The code changes have already been made, but got rolled back today because the system didn't work out as intended. However, we still plan to address cloaks in a patch in the near future (without nerfing covert ops of course).
Is anyone still working on this issue, or has someone decided that the way cloaks works today is fine and should not be changed ?
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Alpine 69
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.14 14:32:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Mephysto This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
So, now you're telling me that a solo pvper who's flying a recon around looking for targets and starts to get chased by a big gang can't use his cloak to avoid getting ganked to hell and back in a RECON ship, which is DESIGNED to cloak and remain undetected?
Also, a covert ops frigate which is designed to remain cloaked for COVERT OPERATIONS can be detected by being probed out?
Congratulations, you're looking to create more mini professions in Eve, and have effectively just completely destroyed covert ops scouting.
What a complete and utter pile of crap.
/SIGNED
Sweet love for the ones that mod my sig <3 From her? You're on. -Rauth |
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Loyal Servant
Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.
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Posted - 2007.08.17 12:23:00 -
[161]
Originally by: SRRAE You can tell who are the pirates on here. They are complaining the most.
Its not just recons or covertops which are at risk. If anything its normal ships with cloaks which are at risk as they are easy to scan, cant move fast when cloaked and cant warp cloaked.
The fact is there is nothing you can do to stop recons from picking off people. Even if you had a fleet of 100 there is nothing you could do, as the recon pirate would do what all pirates do when odds are not in their favour, run and hide.
if the cloaked ship is moving around they wont find you, its that simple. Its more to stop people warping off cloaking to be safe and going AFK. And to stop the cloaked alt who simpley sits cloaked 200k from a gate 23/7.
The only ****ers that cloak are isk farmers and afk ratters. I say make them detectable and be done with it.
I do however agree that covert ops and recons be left alone - ships were designed to cloak and fit a covert ops cloak and they should not be detectable... especially covert ops! The damned thing is not a combat ship!
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batmoth
Amarr Empirius Enigmus Navy Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.17 18:36:00 -
[162]
how about just nerfing the first 2 cloaks and set the covert ops cloaking device as undectable that would fix the problems on this thread
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.18 01:33:00 -
[163]
imho its a good change: NOW WE CAN KILL YOU ALL!
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Hatch
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Posted - 2007.08.18 06:21:00 -
[164]
How about we just make all the ships able to use the Dooms Day weapon... what is it with the WOW whiners, next thing you know, we'll have an XP based system instead of a skill based system. CCP, grow a back bone and quit screwing with the dynamic of the game that made Eve great to begin with. What is the point of a covert ops ship that isn't covert...
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.18 16:18:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Hatch Edited by: Hatch on 18/08/2007 06:47:24 How about we just make all the ships able to use the Dooms Day weapon... what is it with the WOW whiners, next thing you know, we'll have an XP based system instead of a skill based system. CCP, grow a back bone and quit screwing with the dynamic of the game that made Eve great to begin with. What is the point of a covert ops ship that isn't covert...
as far as using cloaks on a battleship, it isn't like you can decloak and start firing. there is a time delay inwhich you can get torn up, locked down and damped all to hell. As far as being afk in space, what is the real difference in being afk in space and being afk in station other than location information. How much resource is really being tied up here. I seriously doubt any amount of utilization that would cause even the slightest problem.
afk cloaking does not make this game great. its gives you kind of invulnerability which just should not exist in eve. once you undock there should always be a counter against your setup/tactic and you must be a possible target. hitting F1 and avoid any danger is just complete utter crap and ***** behavior^2:)
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Hatch
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Posted - 2007.08.18 17:16:00 -
[166]
ok, so are we talking about the same level of difficulty as it is to probe out missions, cause that ain't hard
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Murukan
Minmatar Infortunatus Eventus Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.08.18 22:25:00 -
[167]
stupid stupid change imo. Seriously ccp what is the logic behind this change?
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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Doctor Dre
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Posted - 2007.08.19 06:58:00 -
[168]
cloaking devices = make ship invisible, -xx% to signature radius (kinda like deadspace) covert ops cloaking device = make ship invisible, warp while cloaked, -100% sig radius (no probies)
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Delichon
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Posted - 2007.08.20 07:49:00 -
[169]
I am a noobie here, but can someone explain me the following:
Imagine that I am a recon pilot and recons CAN be probbable. I am in in my enemies homesystem. I make 3 (4-5-6 - the more, the merrier) safespots. I make a macro, that warps through these safespots at a given time interval (to let the cap regenerate) I run macro andd go AFK
Can you catch me using probes?
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Chewan Mesa
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.20 10:27:00 -
[170]
Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 20/08/2007 10:29:23
Originally by: Delichon Edited by: Delichon on 20/08/2007 08:03:46 Edited by: Delichon on 20/08/2007 08:02:44 I am a noobie here, but can someone explain me the following:
Imagine that I am a recon pilot and recons CAN be probbable. I am in in my enemy's homesystem. I make 3 (4-5-6 - the more, the merrier) safespots. I make a macro, that warps through these safespots at a given time interval (to let the cap regenerate) I run macro and go AFK
Can you catch me using probes?
*update - fixed some typos
If someone simply probes you out and waits at that spot until your safespot cycle restarts you warp into him.
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Satan's Spawn
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Posted - 2007.08.20 11:05:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Satan''s Spawn on 20/08/2007 11:05:28
Originally by: Mephysto This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
and thus the point of a cloak is nulandvoid.
Get a life CCP, wake up and smell the coffee.
It's like inventing a fly, and then removing it's wings and calling it a walk.
Either get rid of cloaks, or limit their use, or make them 'cloaks' (not just a fancy see-through effect).
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Mitchman
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2007.08.20 11:59:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Mephysto This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
Sorry for saying it, but that's completely rediculous for some many reasons. I'm with verone on this one. If you do this, please just remove cloaks from the game and be done with it!
New video: Pride, Honor & Retribution
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Delichon
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Posted - 2007.08.20 12:09:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Delichon on 20/08/2007 12:17:23
Originally by: Chewan Mesa Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 20/08/2007 10:29:23
If someone simply probes you out and waits at that spot until your safespot cycle restarts you warp into him.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought there should be several iterations when probing - you first get a rough estimation of location, than a bit better, than better and so up to 5-15 km when you really got somebody.
I mean: you use scanner - see me in X AU with Y degree angle, you narrow down the angle - I disappear you try Y degree again - no sign of me, for I am on another safe spot.
Or you drop probes of 12 AU, analyse, see me, drop 3 AUs - I am somewhere else already.
A lot of bookmarks in cycle may make searching for such a "hare" a very long process (and that is - IF you know for sure he is AFK and not just toying with you) - but again I may simply be not understanding something.
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Red Harvest
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Posted - 2007.08.20 12:27:00 -
[174]
Guess the Devs playing EVE were p**** off by some afk-cloakers themselfs and decided to do something about it. I certainly like it!
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Solarflare Heavy Industries Pure.
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Posted - 2007.08.21 01:01:00 -
[175]
Covops and recons should not be touched. Fine as they are.
The only issue here, really, is the cloaking battleship. Its silly. Even cloaking carriers and motherships, maybe, but cloaked ravens are silly and should be scannable.
Balance it that way. - - - Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Ringcarmen
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:54:00 -
[176]
Just make the systemscanner be able to detected cloaked ships. That will clear out afk cloakers in sov 2 or 3 systems for alliances and NOT affect cloakers outside of Sov. 2 or 3.
I think that would be the best way to solve it.
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Bacci Galu
Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:56:00 -
[177]
IMo Conventional non cloaking ships (aka claoker BS ect) should be probeable.
Anyting with a covert ops cloak, should not, if ccp is going to make it so you can find covert ops cloak fitted ships (frig and recon) then why have these ships as you have just killed the very reason they exist.
Cloaker morts who sit in there claoked BS and BC's, hell yeah they should be probeable (bye bye cloaker-goon :P )
Maker of thy sigs |
Elipsis
Gallente The Mission Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:57:00 -
[178]
I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but I just thought of a possible solution for afk-cloaking that doesn't hurt other players:
What if probes only picked up cloaked ships if they have been traveling on the same trajectory for the last 30 minutes or so. IE: Ship parked or just coasting would be noticed by a probe, but not anything that had changed courses recently.
I guess this opens the door for AFK macros, and I can't think of a good storyline reason why such a dynamic would exist in game, but... *shrug* it would make people think twice about going afk. -...
CEO and Founder of the Mission Guys |
Boonaki
Caldari Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2007.08.22 08:52:00 -
[179]
I think this nerf is more for the people who sit alts in enemy home systems 23/7.
I'd rather see cloaks only scanable by POS scanning arrays. Fear the Ibis of doom!
113 |
Ildryn
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.29 06:41:00 -
[180]
Simple fix
Cloaking ships: Able to scan
T2 Covert ops cloak: Not able to be scanned
Resolves the problem for Cover Ops and Recons :)
Everyone else just gets hunted down and killed
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JSB
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Posted - 2007.10.25 08:59:00 -
[181]
so any news about this topic? anything on the test server yet?
i really hope this change will come.. its just sick... a battleship/carrier whatever 100km from you and you can't probe it out.
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