Originally by: F2C MaDMaXX

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Link/proof?

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Originally by: Malcore Trisus

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I predict more logoffski by ratting battleships and less SS and cloak.

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Originally by: Twilight Moon

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lol....I frosee the following happening:

1) You probe out a cloaker.
2) You warp to them
3) You see nothing when you get there because the damn thing is still cloaked, and you landed more than 2500m away from it
4) You fly about aimlessly trying to run into it, not knowing if it has warped yet or not.
5) You whine on the forums a bit more.

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Originally by: Twilight Moon

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lol....I frosee the following happening:

1) You probe out a cloaker.
2) You warp to them
3) You see nothing when you get there because the damn thing is still cloaked, and you landed more than 2500m away from it
4) You fly about aimlessly trying to run into it, not knowing if it has warped yet or not.
5) You whine on the forums a bit more.

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Originally by: fire 59

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I think the deal with this isn't about cloak specific ships like recons, co ops etc.

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Originally by: Twilight Moon

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lol....I frosee the following happening:

1) You probe out a cloaker.
2) You warp to them
3) You see nothing when you get there because the damn thing is still cloaked, and you landed more than 2500m away from it
4) You fly about aimlessly trying to run into it, not knowing if it has warped yet or not.

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Originally by: murder one

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Personally I wouldn't have any issue at all with scanning/probing regular ships fitted with cloaks. That is to say: all ships except Recons, Covert Ops and Stealth Bombers.

The above three classes simply need to be allowed to fit Covert Ops cloaks (including the SBs), and everyone else not fitting COC2s can be probed/scanned down. Problem solved.

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Originally by: Kanitsu Hiyaboosa

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Well if your part of BoD they could detect cloaked ships before the patch, hell they can even join a waring corp without permission.

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Originally by: Hellown

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Eve: Where Whining carebears get EVERYTHING they ask for.

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Originally by: murder one

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Personally I wouldn't have any issue at all with scanning/probing regular ships fitted with cloaks. That is to say: all ships except Recons, Covert Ops and Stealth Bombers.

The above three classes simply need to be allowed to fit Covert Ops cloaks (including the SBs), and everyone else not fitting COC2s can be probed/scanned down. Problem solved.

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Not saying I disagree with you, but then again... what would be the point of the other cloaking mods?

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Originally by: Twilight Moon

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lol....I frosee the following happening:

1) You probe out a cloaker.
2) You warp to them
3) You see nothing when you get there because the damn thing is still cloaked, and you landed more than 2500m away from it
4) You fly about aimlessly trying to run into it, not knowing if it has warped yet or not.
5) You whine on the forums a bit more.

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Not saying I disagree with you, but then again... what would be the point of the other cloaking mods?

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Originally by: fire 59

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I think the deal with this isn't about cloak specific ships like recons, co ops etc.

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Originally by: Presidente Gallente

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I just cloak and keep moving. The probe-hero warps in and I am out of de-cloak range anyways.

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Originally by: Plutoinum

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Edited by: Plutoinum on 27/05/2007 11:13:33

Originally by: Presidente Gallente

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I just cloak and keep moving. The probe-hero warps in and I am out of de-cloak range anyways.

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Works for the covert, probably not for a probed BS, because you are so slow. Probe, warp gang, everyone his drones out. Might work. Raven has maybe moved 2 km or so in that time.

That anyone catches a Cheetah this way, even if it's afk, is unlikely. That thing moves with 500m/s or something like that cloaked, if you want.

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Originally by: Mikal Drey

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2) if your deviation from the scan result is 0m then you will decloak the ship when you drp out of warp

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Originally by: Mikal Drey

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hey hey
5) isnt the whole entire point of a cloak to NOT be found !!

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Originally by: Thanos Mortis

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Legitimate use of covops will not be affected, a recon or covops pilot can change safespots or keep up speed and remain hidden indefinitly, but those who simply warp to safespot and cloak lose their passive means of safety.

Perhaps the best compromise is to always maintain a >10km deviation from the scan result, this ensures that those at the keyboard can react to anything warping in on their result, but those who are afk can be caught as people spread out drones/smartbombs in an effort to decloak them.

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Originally by: Yarek Balear

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This doesn't mean that cloaking specialised ships can stay safe all the time...

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Originally by: murder one

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Edited by: murder one on 27/05/2007 11:12:41
Edited by: murder one on 27/05/2007 11:10:10

Originally by: CCP Fendahl

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The next patch also makes it possible to detect cloaked ships with scan probes, so the BS fleet could have its scouts scan for hidden surprises.

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O RLY?

Originally by: Mephysto

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This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).

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Originally by: Twilight Moon

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lol....I frosee the following happening:

1) You probe out a cloaker.
2) You warp to them
3) You see nothing when you get there because the damn thing is still cloaked, and you landed more than 2500m away from it
4) You fly about aimlessly trying to run into it, not knowing if it has warped yet or not.
5) You whine on the forums a bit more.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Ambushes? Never saw a bird of prey waiting in deep space till the enterprise has left the sector.

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Originally by: murder one

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Edited by: murder one on 27/05/2007 11:12:41
Edited by: murder one on 27/05/2007 11:10:10

Originally by: CCP Fendahl

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The next patch also makes it possible to detect cloaked ships with scan probes, so the BS fleet could have its scouts scan for hidden surprises.

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O RLY?

Originally by: Mephysto

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This is correct. Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).

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Originally by: Achaiah

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I can understand that cloaked capital ships is something CCP might wanna nerf, but this is simply amazing. And this because of a lot of whining from people who don't feel secure enough to play when they see one cloaked neutral/red in local (oh please, never leave high sec. Go away, play WoW.)

Why is cloaking something that needs to be changed? Can someone at CCP please explain this one for me? Is it because 0.0 players can't deal with the pressure of having a solo cloaked hostile in 0.0?

Man, capital blobs dominating everything, Titans even DDing small groups of half a dozen ships, and the solo fighter/small group terrorist using cloak gets hit with the nerf bat. Yeah, this makes sense. Who among the Devs just got pwned by a cloaked ship and went ballistic?

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Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn

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Originally by: Achaiah

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Blah

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Fortunately, if 95% of people dislike something, and only 5% enjoy it, the game gets changed for the 95% of people. That is just the way a business is run. Ships that are designed for cloaking are not the problem, it is all the battleship ratters and logoffski types that are the problem though imo.

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Originally by: Hellown

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Thanks CCP, again you give into the whiners, i Hope this doesnt affect the covert ops/recon ships.

Eve: Where Whining carebears get EVERYTHING they ask for.

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Originally by: murder one

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Cloaked ships to be scannable...

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Originally by: Hellown

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Thanks CCP, again you give into the whiners, i Hope this doesnt affect the covert ops/recon ships.

Eve: Where Whining carebears get EVERYTHING they ask for.

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Originally by: TRUEAMARRIANMIGHT

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Okay, there is very easy way to find even cloaked Recons or covert ops when this thing comes.

First you scan the target to 0 meters, and warp there. If the ship did not uncloak, drop a can, warp away and do another scan.
If the ship still didnt uncloak, drop a can.

Now all you got to do, is to head to the direction which the cans point to, with your drones outside.

Simple logics.

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Originally by: Hellown

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Thanks CCP, again you give into the whiners, i Hope this doesnt affect the covert ops/recon ships.

Eve: Where Whining carebears get EVERYTHING they ask for.

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Originally by: chapter13

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I'm not reading this whole thread so this may have been pointed out a hundred times already. It says "detect" cloaked ships. Not scan them down. I assume you'll be able to run a scan and see a cloaked stealt bomber (what that aspect of the thread is referencing) on the scanner and know the possiblility of a bomb being deployed is there. I highly doubt the cloaked ship can be scanned down and located. I think it was pretty specific wording....

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Originally by: Jason Marshall

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Wow cov-ops just got nerfed hardcore....

The scanning down cloaked ships should only apply to ships that arent meant to be cloaked.

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Quote:

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Revelations 2 will expand the content for solo exploration, increasing the chances of discovering in-space encounters and hidden deadspace pockets of varying difficultiesùincluding greater rewards through rare NPC commander spawns.

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Quote:

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Simpy how are you supposed to do exploration solo in LowSec or 0.0 without a cloak that will keep you safe? You can warp or you break your analysis, you can't do it quickly due to the base time of the probes, etc. You are a sitting duck.

As for "only cov ops/recon", solo explorers have to use something else simply because niether of those ship classes has the firepower to enter the exploration site and complete it alone or in a small gang, especially since you also have to mount Analyzers and Code Breakers, sucking up 2 mid-slots.

I see this as a serious nerf to Exploration, even more so than to cloaked scouts or any other use of cloaks. Sad, since Oveur's blog specifically said they were expanding the potentials for solo explorer, yet they are nerfing one of the modules that makes it possible.

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Originally by: Steel Tigeress

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I find this post extremly funny... Solo miners were told to get friends to protect them from cloakers...

Now cloakers are complaining that they cant scan for exploration solo... use your own medicine. BRING FRIENDS

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Originally by: Wardog 1

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So therefore, i can't theoretically sit in a falcon or buzzard for more than 30 seconds without someone being able to probe me... rite. Meaning I now own a bunch of glorified... probers?

I don't think cov-ops ships should be scannable at all. But if they have to be :

1)The time taken to scan one should be longer than the time for a normal ship.

2)Scan deviation should be at least double than that of normal ships as standard.

3)Launching scan probes should not tell anyone what cov-ops they're scanning. Only something along the lines of "cloaked vessel" should appear.

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Originally by: chapter13

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only backs up my point....minor nerf at best. Will merely be able to identify what type of ship is cloaked...not locate them. Thats the most important part in reference to what he was discussing...doesn't make sense to be able to scan down and locate cloaked ships...regardless what the whiners say

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Originally by: Aria Jenneth

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Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 27/05/2007 17:43:18


Okay, all, not to sound insensitive, but, to those of you who are complaining about this change ...

What the hell are you people smoking?!

Speaking as a covert ops specialist, I cannot wait. I've wanted to probe and be probed while cloaked for months, and finally CCP will follow through on their declared plan to let it happen. Glee!

First off, this isn't much of a nerf to Buzzards, Falcons, etc (and yes, I'll happily look into purchasing them, if you lot are selling cheap). These are already The. Very. Hardest. Ships. In. The. Game. To. Probe.

If you're looking for my Falcon while I'm safespotted, or, better still, spying on you, the two words I have for you are "good luck." It's got a cruiser signature and better sensor strength than any given battleship, making it bloody difficult to track down. If the devs choose to have cloaks partially interfere with probing efforts, so much the better. Furthermore, I can stack my Buzzard's lowslots with backup sensor arrays and make the little thing even harder to find.

This isn't even counting the fact that I can just align to a sun safespot, warp out if you turn up nearby (most likely without you even knowing I've done so), and leave you to search fruitlessly for where in that grid I might be.

No, the people for whom this is actually a nerf are people who want to make their huge, slow battleships unfindable, usually ratting in NBSI 0.0, then just safespotting, cloaking, and going AFK if someone enters the system. Never mind that you can make probing an exercise in frustration by warping from safe to safe to safe if you think you're being probed, these folks make catching them while they're hunkered down in a system the next thing to impossible. It's an "I win" button for nullsec ratters, and those aren't supposed to exist.

Good frigging riddance.

I, for one, have no desire to just safely go AFK in space for hours on end with impunity, and besides, it's not as though (without probes), my covops or recon can be located or even identified. It's also not as though you can confirm your range to a cloaked ship, so you're not going to be using very strong probes, at least initially. And finally, it's not as though you'll be able to tell whether a cloaked ship is in the probe's range or not if it doesn't find anything in a given scan.

Profound frustration, anyone? It looks at this point as though tracking down a single cloaked recon cruiser would take, potentially, hours, and that's if it stayed in one place, which would be, frankly, stupid.

Enough. This is a paper tiger, lacking either growl or bite ... at least, unless you're trying to hide your CNR from my Buzzard. Then, perhaps, you may have reason to whine.

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Originally by: Tsanse Kinske

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This looks like it will be a very moderate change, and nicely targeted on AFKers as far as I can tell.

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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This pretty much sounds like the end of solo pirating, espionage, and guerilla warfare to me. Or was that the whole idea?

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Don't probe for exploration when there are hostiles in the system? That isn't too hard to manage. [...]

*What* you cannot do without risk anymore is hitting scan and going afk for 5 min.

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Originally by: Elmicker

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No, its the end to someone fitting a 1mil isk cloak to a 100k isk frig and sitting in a system, AFK for days at a time, and "suspending all vulnerable operations" as you put it. Now the defenders will actually be able to discern if the hostile/neutral in local is actually a threat and engage them if possible, instead of the person being absolutely invicible as it is currently.

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Originally by: Presidente Gallente

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I just cloak and keep moving. The probe-hero warps in and I am out of de-cloak range anyways.
So it's senseless to change cloak. Cloak is cloak means cloak. Period.

Whining for nerfing cloak is like
- nerf gate camping because it sucks
- nerf the skills of a 4 years player because he sucks
- nerf gangs because 10v1 sucks
- nerf insta-warps because they suck
- nerf everything I can't deal with because that sucks

Pres G

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Originally by: Vengarioth Skullshanks

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I understand that the majority of the EvE community welcomes this changes.

However there are still people in this game who like to fight differently. Sadly first and foremost this is a nerv to Guerilla Warfare. It's not about probing Isk farmers or ratters because you wont catch them anyway - logoffsky 4tl.

I know most peeps dont like e.g. Cloaked damp ravens .. but it is a viable tactic where u can harm a much bigger entity without reverting to the common "i bring more numbers than u" blob.

Eve is such a great game because of its versatility. Dont kill every aspect of it. 90% of Eve combat is already blob warfare ... you arent doing anything good to the minority who refuses to use numbers to win.

cheers

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Originally by: Elmicker

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Edited by: Elmicker on 27/05/2007 23:50:18
This change doesnt bother me in the slightest. Puts an end to AFK cloakers and invincible AFK ratting BSs.

Doesnt make one bit of change to cov. ops and recon cruisers. They wont be able to scan you dont with any reasonable accuracy (due to crazy low sig and crazy high sensor strength), so, assuming you're there, you see them appear on grid 50+km away, all you have to do is bounce to another SS, or move away. Now, if they add some kind of anti-cloaking pulse, that changes everything... But as it is now, I think this is an excellent change, and this is speaking as a dedicated Arazu/Cov. ops pilot.

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Originally by: murder one

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TBH I could care less if regular ships w/ cloaks are able to be scanned/probed, but any ship fitting a cov ops cloak should be completely invisible,

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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So basically, them meta-gaming a cloaking module = no fair!

But you meta-gaming a CHAT TAB = totally awesome?

How convenient.

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Originally by: Elmicker

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All this change does is provides the defender a means to find what they know is already there, but this process is extremely difficult and time-consuming, which is fairly balanced, as it gives those who are actually at their PCs the advantage, compared to those who are AFK, who will be caught on the first sweep and dealt with.

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Originally by: Alexi Borizkova

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Originally by: Hellown

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Thanks CCP, again you give into the whiners, i Hope this doesnt affect the covert ops/recon ships.

Eve: Where Whining carebears get EVERYTHING they ask for.

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You are aware that people like me want this ability so they can kill the cloaking carebears that hide and rat 23/7 in 0.0 right?

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Originally by: ghost st

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If i recall correctly when cloaks first come out it was said that they would be probable. We have waited a long time for this fix, that we were supposed to get when cloaks first came out. So in reality we are getting the mechanics that were supopsed to be there in the first place.

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Originally by: CCP Hammer

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The issue of cloaked pilots showing up on local still needs to be addressed as well.

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Originally by: ghost st

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If i recall correctly when cloaks first come out it was said that they would be probable. We have waited a long time for this fix, that we were supposed to get when cloaks first came out. So in reality we are getting the mechanics that were supopsed to be there in the first place.

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If you read the dev blogs, cloaked ships were also supposed to be exempt from local.

Originally by: CCP Hammer

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The issue of cloaked pilots showing up on local still needs to be addressed as well.

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Originally by: ghosttr

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This blog you referenced came out a loong time after cloaks were introduced. I could understand if cloaks came out in rev2, and ccp messed up. But we were supposed to be able to scan them out the day they were released, so you have been playing with a broken system from day 1.
Now that we got out scanner you should have to wait just as long

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Don't probe for exploration when there are hostiles in the system? That isn't too hard to manage. Besides when (or, better, *if*) they probe you they won't suddenly appear on top of you, but will arrive at the point where you where when their probe finished it's scan. If you do this thing called "moving" you will be already at least 5k+ away from that spot - plenty of time to warp away before they find you.

*What* you cannot do without risk anymore is hitting scan and going afk for 5 min.

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Originally by: Phoebus Athenian

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And I finally got into cloaking... maybe I should drop it here while its early :P

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Originally by: Rawthorm

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Well this is definatly gonna harm how we can use Hera (The Nyx) for raids on alliance terretory. No matter what the cloak penilty is to a scan result, the Nyx is so big it's still pretty much gonna be a guarenteed and fairly accurate find.

Of course we wont stop using her in this fassion, but its dammed anoying that a tactical way of being able to hit the many, with only a few on your side is being nerfed so hard. I can only imagine how this will effect other peoples ability to do hit and run attacks with a small cloaked force. It's a dammed shame we are now removing the psycological aspect in baiting a raiding force out into a trap, and just giving the defenders the easy way out

Being pushed back to the blob 4tl...

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Originally by: murder one

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Personally I wouldn't have any issue at all with scanning/probing regular ships fitted with cloaks. That is to say: all ships except Recons, Covert Ops and Stealth Bombers.

The above three classes simply need to be allowed to fit Covert Ops cloaks (including the SBs), and everyone else not fitting COC2s can be probed/scanned down. Problem solved.

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Originally by: Rawthorm

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but its dammed anoying that a tactical way of being able to hit the many, with only a few on your side is being nerfed so hard. I can only imagine how this will effect other peoples ability to do hit and run attacks with a small cloaked force. It's a dammed shame we are now removing the psycological aspect in baiting a raiding force out into a trap, and just giving the defenders the easy way out

Being pushed back to the blob 4tl...

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Originally by: El'essar Viocragh

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Sure, this just means you need to have a lot of luck, or a pretty decently sized gang locking down the system for 5 hours to make sure there are no hostiles.

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Quote:

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Apart from that, hitting scan and going afk for 5 minutes doesn't really work now either. Check scan and probe life times if you want to know why.

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Originally by: Kw4h

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You just wrote down the reason why this boost is implemented...

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Originally by: Caletha Reborn

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This is implemented because of all the carebears whining "we have a cloaker 24/7 in our system" while not comming up with ways to get rid of them... And while its annoying, I fear this 'solution' will ruin strategic cloak-warfare... I fear this might destroy force-recon gangs all together...

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Not to mention that afk cloakers probably still could easily avoid detection by stuffing their meds with ECCM, while the recons and explorers need those slots for other stuff.

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Originally by: Caletha Reborn

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Originally by: Kw4h

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You just wrote down the reason why this boost is implemented...

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Its implemented to stop people from making strategic retreats? Because lets be honest, if you see Ign0raMus in local your not really doubting what he's flying... And even motherships need to retreat from battle at times... So no, I dont think what he wrote is why its implemented...

This is implemented because of all the carebears whining "we have a cloaker 24/7 in our system" while not comming up with ways to get rid of them... And while its annoying, I fear this 'solution' will ruin strategic cloak-warfare... I fear this might destroy force-recon gangs all together...

But the patch isnt online yet, so we dont know yet how accurate probing cloakers will be, and how this will effect the strategic benefits of cloaks. But if this means that all ships that cant fit covert ops cloaks (no velocity penalty) are basicly useless cloakers, then I fear they just tried to fix something that wasnt broken but broke it while 'fixing it'.

For my corp, cloaks allow us to have carrier backup far away from any pos-network that we have setup. Removing that ability would be a shame. Why would one fit a cloak if you just end up getting probed out the same was as without a cloak? Ohwell, I guess this free's up a highslot on my carrier...

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Originally by: Peanut Swsh

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makes the afk cloakers probe-able, but anyone actually playing eve, impossible to find.

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Originally by: SFShootme

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manti + 3 speed mods + 2 speed rigs = 500+ m/s cloaked.

it'll be long gone before u warp to 0

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Originally by: Thanos Mortis

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Wait are they making cloaked ships show on the ship scanner or be scan probable or both?

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Originally by: murder one

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Originally by: Thanos Mortis

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Wait are they making cloaked ships show on the ship scanner or be scan probable or both?

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B O T H

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Not to mention that afk cloakers probably still could easily avoid detection by stuffing their meds with ECCM, while the recons and explorers need those slots for other stuff.

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It's an active mod, so no. While cloaking the only active mod you can run is the cloak.

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Originally by: Peanut Swsh

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Originally by: murder one

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Originally by: Thanos Mortis

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Wait are they making cloaked ships show on the ship scanner or be scan probable or both?

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B O T H

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oh well i disagree with this then. they should be probe-able, but showing up on directional scanner is a no-no.

can you link to where this is said?

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Originally by: Hellown

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Thanks CCP, again you give into the whiners, i Hope this doesnt affect the covert ops/recon ships.

Eve: Where Whining carebears get EVERYTHING they ask for.

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Meh true enough, so replace med with low and you still have that issue.

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Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn

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It is more the fact that everyone and their mother uses cov ops cloaks on every type of ship in the game, especially ratting ships, and that should not be happening.

I would also like a way to make it really easy to uncloak Battleships that try to use a cov ops device.

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Originally by: Ashaz

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Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn

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It is more the fact that everyone and their mother uses cov ops cloaks on every type of ship in the game, especially ratting ships, and that should not be happening.

I would also like a way to make it really easy to uncloak Battleships that try to use a cov ops device.

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I am just curious.
what ratting ship are you refering to exactly that has 100000 cpu?

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Originally by: Hellown

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Thanks CCP, again you give into the whiners, i Hope this doesnt affect the covert ops/recon ships.

Eve: Where Whining carebears get EVERYTHING they ask for.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Meh true enough, so replace med with low and you still have that issue.

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Nope.

You ignore that cov ops and recons are already harder to find from their base stats. The chance to find a target depends on their sig/sensor strength relation, the lower the smaller the chance. A Buzzard has there 2.1, a falcon 6.4. And a raven 20.9.

Now, 3 lowslot backup arrays give you a sensor strength bonus of 167% (they have the stacking penality). This gives the raven 7.8 there, still more than the recon.
If it fills ALL 5 lows with them (which sees unrealistic since it won't be a very efficient ratter then) it will be around 1% harder to probe than the falcon (6.359 vs 6.423).

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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And YES, I AM biased about this, because I'm primarily a recon pilot. My existance and way of life in EVE is threatened because thats what I do..cloak, sneak up on people, attack, cloak and hide until the heat is off.


....*runs off to start a petition*

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Those will still be able to do their thing fitting 3 ECCM in their lows.

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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The cloak is POINTLESS now - Entirely..theres NO reason for it. The cloak was supposed to HIDE you.
The argument that you end up 2500m from the cloaked ship and therefor it will do nothing is a poor argument, all you have to do when exiting warp, is fly forward really fast and BAM, guy is uncloaked, I guarentee it.

The cloak, effectively does NADA now - Whoever in CCP thought this was a good idea, please drink your coffee BEFORE you start thinking up new changes to EVE.

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Originally by: hydraSlav

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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The cloak is POINTLESS now - Entirely..theres NO reason for it. The cloak was supposed to HIDE you.
The argument that you end up 2500m from the cloaked ship and therefor it will do nothing is a poor argument, all you have to do when exiting warp, is fly forward really fast and BAM, guy is uncloaked, I guarentee it.

The cloak, effectively does NADA now - Whoever in CCP thought this was a good idea, please drink your coffee BEFORE you start thinking up new changes to EVE.

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Where is "forward"? And how do you know that he is in front of you and not behind or to a side? Besides, people with cloaks can still move (albeit slow) and by the time the prober warps to you, you may be well out of the decloak range.

NADA? Please, get a clue. Recons can still ambush the gate sitting cloaked on it waiting for prey. Covert-ops can still covertly survey forces, POSes, etc. Stealth-bombers still move faster in cloak, getting ready for a tactical strike while undetected.

Any PvP Force Recon pilot that is hunting his prey in a system can still do so with his cloak on, cause if he is actually playing, he won't be sitting in the same spot forever. If he isn't sitting in the same spot, then even if he is probed, he will be out of decloak range, and can warp away while cloaked living the prober aimlessly "flying forward really fast"

The only other people besides AFK cloakers that are effected with this are the capital pilots. And rightfully so. It is ridiculous that capital ships simply disappear with a click of a button for no effort (no effort to keep the module running, no fuel requirements, no cap use even).

This "nerf" only affects effortless gameplay.

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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When you probe someone out, I'd assume you warp TO them, and not away from them, thus your initial approach will 9 times out of 10, be where the cloaker is.

Now, YOU get a clue, kthxbai!

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Originally by: Peanut Swsh

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you have never used a probe before amirite?

and if there is a cov-ops in the system you will have one of 2 situations:
1. the enemy gang is small enough you can still kill them all, it won't make buggerall difference whether or not they can probe you or not. hell its good they probe you, then you don't have to go find them, they will come to you.
2. you can't handle the enemy gang, then you run away. whether or not they can probe you again makes only one difference. you can no longer just cloak and go afk, you have to actively move your ship.

now you might argue that this had made cloaking pointless. but cloaking already is pointless in all the situations that they would be pointless with the nerf. EXCEPT, for people who currently use cloaking to go AFK.

and sure capitals can cloak. with this so called 'nerf' they still can.

maybe you should tell us how you currently hunt with the cloak, and we will help you adapt to the changes. not that you should need to change much.

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Originally by: Savesti Kyrsst

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It's hit and run tactics, asymmetric warfare. Piracy is one example. You want to kill one or some of them, and leave (preferrably with the loot) before the blob arrives.

Lots of people don't like those kind of tactics because they don't use them and they can't think of a good counter to them.

I'm sorry cloaking isn't two testosterone-fuelled armies of bulging Megathrons and Myrmidons standing toe-to-toe duking it out with their nines. But it's still a legitimate tactic, and it makes Eve more fun and more interesting in my eyes.

You say currently cloaking is pointless except to go afk... I really don't understand where you're coming from with that at all. Why is cloaked scouting pointless? Why is a cloaked approach pointless? They're pretty standard pvp tactics in my experience.

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Originally by: Savesti Kyrsst

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Originally by: Peanut Swsh

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you have never used a probe before amirite?

and if there is a cov-ops in the system you will have one of 2 situations:
1. the enemy gang is small enough you can still kill them all, it won't make buggerall difference whether or not they can probe you or not. hell its good they probe you, then you don't have to go find them, they will come to you.
2. you can't handle the enemy gang, then you run away. whether or not they can probe you again makes only one difference. you can no longer just cloak and go afk, you have to actively move your ship.

now you might argue that this had made cloaking pointless. but cloaking already is pointless in all the situations that they would be pointless with the nerf. EXCEPT, for people who currently use cloaking to go AFK.

and sure capitals can cloak. with this so called 'nerf' they still can.

maybe you should tell us how you currently hunt with the cloak, and we will help you adapt to the changes. not that you should need to change much.

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It's hit and run tactics, asymmetric warfare. Piracy is one example. You want to kill one or some of them, and leave (preferrably with the loot) before the blob arrives.

Lots of people don't like those kind of tactics because they don't use them and they can't think of a good counter to them.

I'm sorry cloaking isn't two testosterone-fuelled armies of bulging Megathrons and Myrmidons standing toe-to-toe duking it out with their nines. But it's still a legitimate tactic, and it makes Eve more fun and more interesting in my eyes.

You say currently cloaking is pointless except to go afk... I really don't understand where you're coming from with that at all. Why is cloaked scouting pointless? Why is a cloaked approach pointless? They're pretty standard pvp tactics in my experience.

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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Peanut Swish, theres your answer, Savesti Kyrsst just provided it.
I'm sorry my way of fighting with my Pilgrim doesn't mean boasting out to every combat pilot in the system to come fight me all at once like I should according to some of you, but as it is, I do sneak attacks, which is what is at stake here.

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Originally by: Peanut Swsh

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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Peanut Swish, theres your answer, Savesti Kyrsst just provided it.
I'm sorry my way of fighting with my Pilgrim doesn't mean boasting out to every combat pilot in the system to come fight me all at once like I should according to some of you, but as it is, I do sneak attacks, which is what is at stake here.

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and this change will make no difference to your tactics when you are hunting. it is only when you are being hunted in return that you now have to actively evade detection.

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Originally by: Savesti Kyrsst

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But competent pilots should be hunting him as soon as he appears in local.

Counter-> log off. Not as fun.

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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Why should cloaks be immune from detection? Shields dont make a person immune from guns, but for some strange reason people still worry about having them?

Just because a mod has a counter doesnt make it worthless. Making cloaked ships someone detectable brings balance to the game. Covert ops and recon should be very dangerous jobs, with a high probability of losing your ship. Currently its the easiest profession out there with little to no risk.

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Originally by: Peanut Swsh

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Edited by: Peanut Swsh on 28/05/2007 16:32:23

Originally by: Savesti Kyrsst

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But competent pilots should be hunting him as soon as he appears in local.

Counter-> log off. Not as fun.

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no. counter -> keep moving, instead of the current cloak and go afk (yeah heaps of fun).

and if competent pilots are hunting him, then it won't matter if he can or can't be probed. currently competent pilots will just gatecamp the exits, blob him, bait him out, or a combination of the mentioned. which means he is gonna go cloaked and go afk (not fun), because he has nothing easy to kill.

as i have stated numerous times, the affected people will be those who cloak and go afk.

i think a lot of the people complaining here have never used scan probes before.

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Originally by: Savesti Kyrsst

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Edited by: Savesti Kyrsst on 28/05/2007 16:32:37

Originally by: Jayson Lee

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Why should cloaks be immune from detection? Shields dont make a person immune from guns, but for some strange reason people still worry about having them?

Just because a mod has a counter doesnt make it worthless. Making cloaked ships someone detectable brings balance to the game. Covert ops and recon should be very dangerous jobs, with a high probability of losing your ship. Currently its the easiest profession out there with little to no risk.

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Then no-one will fly them, as they are expensive and specialised.

They are not immune from detection. This is a misunderstanding. They are detectable when they jump in systems, when they launch probes, when they change the probes in their launcher, if they make a mistake, and while and for some time before and after they make an attack.

It is also highly prudent and generally accurate to assume any unknown pilot in local is flying a covops or recon.

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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I thought some cloaks are cheap? Hince the reason bs and haulers can fit them.

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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Just how long are they dectecable, a few seconds at a time? Highly unlikely they would be found unless they run into a large get camp, which in that case any ship is in trouble so cloaking isnt an issue then.

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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Now the expensive cloaks, you still have plenty of protection and a very small chance at finding them. Name another mod that offers the kind of protection you get that comes anywhere near what a cloak does?

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Originally by: Savesti Kyrsst

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Keep moving at high risk of detection, or log off until the blob gets bored?

And a camping blob with bubbles preferably is needed each way.

The only thing this does is render unneccessary baiting him out, which sucks, as baiting is most of solo and small gang pvp.

I don't have any problem with being able to detect longer-term afk cloakers btw. 30 seconds is not longer-term though.

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Originally by: Aria Jenneth

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Round and round it goes. I can't help but wondering how many of those saying that being able to "warp to your target" is going to ruin covops have ever used a recon probe in your lives. I also wonder how many of you have bothered to read before posting, though admittedly six pages may be a bit much to ask. It's just that I keep seeing the same inaccurate claims again ... and again ... and again.

In truth, it doesn't really matter. I'll be looking forward to the resulting price drop in recon ships and cloaking devices (which I predict will be brief), and will happily consider reasonable offers from those of you looking to ditch your gear early. I'll sell them back to you at a premium after the tantrum blows over.

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Originally by: Peanut Swsh

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and this change will make no difference to your tactics when you are being hunted.

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Originally by: Peanut Swsh

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it is hardly a high risk of detection. its only high if you stop moving.

and as i have said, there is not really a high risk of detection if you keep moving. so baiting would still be necessary. and most solo pvp fits don't incorporate a probe launcher, they are a bit hard to fit. most small gangs don't either.

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Originally by: Savesti Kyrsst

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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I thought some cloaks are cheap? Hince the reason bs and haulers can fit them.

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Then cheap cloaks should be nerfed and that's fine.

Originally by: Jayson Lee

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Just how long are they dectecable, a few seconds at a time? Highly unlikely they would be found unless they run into a large get camp, which in that case any ship is in trouble so cloaking isnt an issue then.

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I've ganked them before. It's quite possible to find them using the directional scanner. Killing them is harder, but possible.

Originally by: Jayson Lee

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Now the expensive cloaks, you still have plenty of protection and a very small chance at finding them. Name another mod that offers the kind of protection you get that comes anywhere near what a cloak does?

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If they're so hard to find, how come covops and recons die all the time? How come the prices are still high, if none ever die?

The cloak is unique in what it does. This is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Good grief, you're Minmatar, man! Can't you see having a variety of tactics available is a good thing?

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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...Covert ops and recon should be very dangerous jobs, with a high probability of losing your ship. Currently its the easiest profession out there with little to no risk.

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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How many more ships will be killed because of the current changes? The only ones I see being at risk are those that go AFK when cloaked.

Tactics havent changed only now people must be a little more attentive to what they are doing.

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Originally by: Aria Jenneth

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Round and round it goes. I can't help but wondering how many of those saying that being able to "warp to your target" is going to ruin covops have ever used a recon probe in your lives

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Quote:

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When you probe someone out, I'd assume you warp TO them, and not away from them, thus your initial approach will 9 times out of 10, be where the cloaker is

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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...Covert ops and recon should be very dangerous jobs, with a high probability of losing your ship. Currently its the easiest profession out there with little to no risk.

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Funny. I'd say the same for hauling/mining.

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Originally by: Savesti Kyrsst

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Edited by: Savesti Kyrsst on 28/05/2007 17:17:48

Originally by: Jayson Lee

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How many more ships will be killed because of the current changes? The only ones I see being at risk are those that go AFK when cloaked.

Tactics havent changed only now people must be a little more attentive to what they are doing.

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Cloaked ships on the same grid will be uncloaked and killed fairly often I bet by gangs with a prober. 30secs at 200m/s is just 6km; a domi warping there and spewing drones followed by a crow circling around have a pretty good chance. This will change tactics, and force cloakers to constantly spam scan for probes, and frankly it will give me a headache.

I have just thought of a way you can still go afk cloaked in a system though, so that's something

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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However, 30 seconds is a detail that can change, what about the concept? Maybe 30 seconds is too quick, that doesnt invalidate the concept of finding cloaked ships.

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Originally by: Savesti Kyrsst

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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However, 30 seconds is a detail that can change, what about the concept? Maybe 30 seconds is too quick, that doesnt invalidate the concept of finding cloaked ships.

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It's not just spamming scan repeatedly, it's spamming scan with "use overview settings" turned off, sorting through all the rubbish, and hoping and praying that no-one's probing you from outside scan range.

It's a different situation from ratters and miners. Frankly, I'm not too keen on anyone having to spam scan constantly whether they're mining, ratting or hunting. I've mined before y'know, and even got ganked once

At least if you're ratting or mining, you watch local as well, and you try to match ships to people, watch for little red minuses, and especially in 0.0 try not to do anything risky if anyone non-blue is in syst. What I'm saying is you do a variety of things, but you don't have to spam scan constantly, only at specific times. Every few minutes in a mission, but more if you're stuck at a warp-in point. Ratting or mining - depends how local looks and on the system.

30 seconds is too quick. I don't see a problem with cloakers being detectable with exploration probes, for example, or by a specific POS module. It'd also make sense if they just let probes show up in overview and thus be scanned specifically for.

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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In hostile space, deep in enemy territory is suicidal, whats your point?

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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Are you agreeing with me that cloaking is alittle bit on the easy side considering how dangerous the job is?

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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In hostile space, deep in enemy territory is suicidal, whats your point?

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That it just got a lot safer for you in sovereign space. Nothing short of a well organized blob is going to pose much of a threat. Here's where you tell me that's as it should be.

Originally by: Jayson Lee

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Are you agreeing with me that cloaking is alittle bit on the easy side considering how dangerous the job is?

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Believe it or not, I've always agreed with you that cloaking was too easy. Where we've clearly disagreed is that using local is far too easy as well.

My main beef is it takes away the initiative from the cloaked pilot. The Force Recon now becomes the hunted, rather than the hunter. The spy must rely on his cloak to avoid capture, not detection.

This is "covert" in name only. True "cloaking" undermined by a freakin' chat tab.

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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Edited by: Cadela Fria on 28/05/2007 14:04:46
I STILL can't believe this is happening.
Cloaking to avoid detection...IT WAS ONE OF THE FRIGGIN RULES! It takes up a highslot that could've been weapon...it renders you incapable of doing anything in terms of ship activity, it severely slows your ship too, you can't warp etc etc etc.

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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I just think that maybe you under estimate just what removing local would do.

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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I just think that maybe you under estimate just what removing local would do.

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Absolutely not. I'm not bucking for a quick fix, let's just globally drop local and let the chips fall where they may. But honestly, Jayson, despite our past differences, you've got to admit the whole local/cloaking mechanic are strongly at odds with one another.

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Originally by: Hellown

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Thanks CCP, again you give into the whiners, i Hope this doesnt affect the covert ops/recon ships.

Eve: Where Whining carebears get EVERYTHING they ask for.

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Originally by: Savesti Kyrsst

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Edited by: Savesti Kyrsst on 28/05/2007 17:17:48

Cloaked ships on the same grid will be uncloaked and killed fairly often I bet by gangs with a prober. 30secs at 200m/s is just 6km; a domi warping there and spewing drones followed by a crow circling around have a pretty good chance.

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Originally by: Borasatar

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So, if being scanned out doesn't actually uncloak the person, what good will it do? I guess ships that equip the poor cloaks will move slowly and you can try to find them but the ships that move quicker will have moved a bit by the time you get to them, making it harder to uncloak them. So... if you plan to cloak, load up on overdrives, I guess.

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Originally by: Jayson Lee

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Honestly I liked an idea brought up by another person, in a thread awhile back. Change the role of destroyers and make them the only ship that can dectect and track down a cloaked ship(at least the specialized cloaked ships).

Equip them with very sensitive radar equipment and allow them to fit "depth charges" that can find a cloaked ship once the general area is narrowed down.

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Originally by: Twilight Moon

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lol....I frosee the following happening:

1) You probe out a cloaker.
2) You warp to them
3) You see nothing when you get there because the damn thing is still cloaked, and you landed more than 2500m away from it
4) You fly about aimlessly trying to run into it, not knowing if it has warped yet or not.
5) You whine on the forums a bit more.

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Originally by: Mark Bollak

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haha...gold !

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Originally by: murder one

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The stupid thing is this: if you can scan/probe out the location of a Covert Ops Recon, or Stealth Bomber, then that means that you already know it's there.

If that's the case, then the whole point of having a cloak is already ruined. It's already hard as hell to sneak up on a target due to local. If you have a general idea of where a Recon or Cov Ops is, then there is hardly any point in using one anymore.

Scanning/probing normal ships? I could care less. Probing Recons/Cov Ops? That's ********.

You don't actually have to find someone's Recon to completely negate it's usefulness. Simply knowing how far away it is is enough to eliminate it as an effective combat ship.

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Originally by: F'nog

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One does not simply log into Jita.

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