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should Dev's and GM's be allowed to be ingame players(vote/discussion)

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Wylker Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 13:42:00 - [211] Edited by: Wylker on 28/05/2007 13:41:40 Look mom! I'm WAY too important to post in the 160 page thread that the dev team has open, so imha start my own thrad!!!! IM TYPIN ON TA INTARWEBS! Oh, I didn't read your entire post, I AM in fact flaming, but I posted with my main!
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 13:44:00 - [212] If they don't play their own game, how can they improve it or make decisions on petitions? Seriously, think what you are saying. Yes they should, and MUST have in-game characters, otherwise they are useless. The conflict of interests is another issue, and the solution here is strict auditing/monitoring and TRANSPARENCY of investigations, should they be brought forward == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Urgomar Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.05.28 13:54:00 - [213] Originally by: CrestoftheStars when you pay for a product you are right to say "i do not which that you do something that will advantually lead to a misuse. as i have pointed out (and this is how they actually do it in most mmo's) You're wrong, the right you have is not to pay for that game. Paying for it doesnt allow you to change it as you like ! Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.28 14:02:00 - [214] Originally by: Wylker Edited by: Wylker on 28/05/2007 13:41:40 Look mom! I like these posts, here's where i stopped reading, saved me time Lost it with replying
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 14:08:00 - [215] with the allegations turning up false left right and center they should start banning all the drama queens for harassment
Elspeth Vigneron Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.05.28 14:09:00 - [216] Allowed in game? I'm at the point I'm not sure that they should even be allowed to investigate allegations of their misconduct. Now they're saying "trust us, we have the petition, but we can't disclose it because it's private. Yet the EULA (which has two components to privacy, one IN-GAME, the other between you as a REAL PERSON and CCP) that seems to say they very well CAN disclose the alleged petition: Quote: 8. PRIVACY AND CONFIDENTIALITY A. Communications Except for certain information in your Account (discussed below), all transmissions by you to the System are not private. What they're saying, except for what's in Section B., NOTHING IS PRIVATE. Quote: You acknowledge and agree that you have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms. CCP representatives may monitor communications made by or received from you. You should not provide private information to any other player in the Game. CCP shall not be responsible for the consequences of any such disclosure by you. In short, private communications (such as petitions) and chat windows, such as local, are NOT PRIVATE. Even if you think they are. Quote: You may encounter and converse with people who are rude, offensive, belligerent, and who may use indecent, obscene, and/or threatening or harassing language while playing the Game. You may report any instances of such behavior to CCP. CCP will investigate and take such measures as CCP, in its sole judgment, determines are reasonable under the circumstances. CCP does not guarantee that you will not encounter behavior of others that you may view as insulting, demeaning, offensive, threatening or harassing. You assume all risk associated with playing the Game, and CCP assumes no responsibility for the conduct of any other players, and shall not be liable to you or any other person for their conduct. Not relevant, but provided because I'm providing the entire section of the EULA. Quote: B. Personal Information CCP does not guarantee that personal information transmitted to the System, including without limitation information in your Account, will not be disclosed to third parties. While CCP's aim is to keep your personal information confidential and CCP employs security measures to protect the System, third parties may unlawfully intercept transmissions or private communications, or access data within the System. Additionally, CCP may (and you hereby expressly authorize CCP to) disclose information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials, as CCP, in its sole discretion, deems necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible crimes or to respond to judicial, regulatory, agency or similar inquiries. CCP may monitor usage of the System to gather statistical information that it may disclose to third parties. CCP may also contact you using the information you provided to, for example, provide technical support, respond to user inquiries, transmit questionnaires and offer products and services. You may also verify and update your Account information by logging into your Account through the account management page at https://secure.eve-online.com/login.asp. Here we're talking about you, as a human being, and how you have the right of privacy for your REAL LIFE personal information. Such as your credit card. Your e-mail. That sort of stuff. It also says they may use your personal information to contact you regarding technical support issues. Which makes sense if you can't even log-on to view the petition system. They can also use your personal information to sell you goods and services. It also says that they'll turn your information over to law enforcement if necessary. Phoenix Logistics Industries
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 14:10:00 - [217] learn to read wad, they didn't say it was private because of the eula, they said it was private because they have standards
Bienurdau Hywoaf Minmatar Matari Holo News Network	Posted - 2007.05.28 14:19:00 - [218] No It creates a conflict of interest whether such is intended or not. Most games this is handled by not allowing GMs to have a character on the server they are adjucating. However EVE being a single shard does not afford this luxury. They could create an internal test server to meet their needs of testing game mechanics. I'd be surprised if they didn't have one already. They could also use test center for this purpose. Another option might be to split the server into two. It is far easier to guard against perceived conflicts of interest if you have more than one server. Idea: Treaties Idea: Jump Rigs
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.28 15:44:00 - [219] They already have a test server.
Relaria Hossin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.28 16:41:00 - [220] If the staff were left to run the NPC corporations then any misconduct they participate in would have minimal effect on the paying players. Other then that, the only other solution would be to limit them to the test server. NO OTHER GAME allows GMs to be GMs on the server they play on as regular players. Unfortunately EVE has a single shard. WHY does CCP not see the problem?
CaptainGordon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.28 16:49:00 - [221] In the light of the recent events - absolutely not.
ElCholo Minmatar FarCry Inc Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:53:00 - [222] No. No to devs/gms etc being a part of any major faction. No to devs/gms having any impact on server politics of any kind. No to devs/gms having any out of game contact (read anything that can bypass chat/mail logs etc), MSN (and others like it) are clearly back channel communication that bypass any audit trails.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:59:00 - [223] oh ya thats right Dev's arent allow to make friends Dev's arent allow to have fun Dev's arent allowed to enjoy their work Dev's arent allowed to answer their phone Players are allowed to make any claim they want regardless of having nothing but here say Players are allowed to whine about everything Players who get banned were obviously conspired against and must raise forum drama Players own the game, the devs are our slaves /sarcasm
Relaria Hossin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:03:00 - [224] Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 18:02:46 The chatter that goes on in the circles of GMs and developers from other MMOGs is very telling. The way CCP handles allowing staff to have player accounts on their single server is totally different from the standard practice of how these games are run. They are after all just human. We are all human. Humans will play favorites, don't lie, you are human too and you know it is true even if you want to lie about it.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:05:00 - [225] Originally by: The Pointless Originally by: MehTheTrader I absolutely disgusted with games with cheats. Cheating is rampant in ccp no doubt, how can it not be with the system. CCP's defense against cheating is they trust their devs, this is omfg rediclous. The funniest/sadest part of this all is they rehired t20. LIKE WHAT IS WRONG WITH CCP!!?? BRAIN FART! Could he actually be replaced? Think about it. of course he could! not like it's hard. even if he couldn't it would still be tuf luck, because he shouldn't be there. if a police officer breaks the law that's IT no matter how importent he is he can never do anything within the area of law again, that's the consequence of misused trust. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:06:00 - [226] says a goon, which if we type cast, makes you a cheater yourself
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:15:00 - [227] problem is if some dev did that and THEN got out to fight with a clan... the game would die so quickly it would still be spinning in it's grave! the most importent thing in a mmo is that EVERY ONE is equel from start of and no one gets something easyer then others do. same ruleset for all, this is what motivates people to come to a game, and not just go out and do something IRL, since RL is so corrupt, and we like beeing somewhere where mechanics SHOULD have made sure that there couldn't be this corruption that gives a unfair advantage to some people over others... this game will get seriusly hurt by incidents like this, and it will aventually crumbel if nothing is done, it's normal logic that as soon as light begins to shine on things like this last incident, the whole pyramid starts to collaps, and secrifices most be made to keep it standing and to rebuilt it Originally by: FarScape III Edited by: FarScape III on 28/05/2007 10:46:07 Who cares? I do not, anything a GM or DEV could do is squat and no big deal. Just that fact that anyone is worried about it is testimony that how great of a RL simulation this is, if we lived in the real EVE universe. People actually started playing this game BECAUSE of the allegations made. I mean how much would you care if some dev gave him self some cool looking purple +42 wizard hat in WoW? LOL Some Gank or even some one exploiting makes 100 times more difference in the game then these so called rumors would. Get real and understand it makes no difference, it is a game, just a game. If it were 1000 times worse then maybe I would agree but it is not. Also if we had several shards like the other MMO's it would be even more pathetic to even care if some GM was playing and what extra goodie they gave them selves. So again people see that and actually start playing this game because of this. P.S. And then I here some player say they got billions and they are quiting because of this? They abviously were not effect. lol. If they lost billions then maybe lol. Ganks do that kind of dammage sometimes, leave because of that? Most would say still no. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:18:00 - [228] "incidents" that so far have proven to be nonexistant? Merely player drivel started to cause trouble?
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:20:00 - [229] when a player **s up the worse thing that can happend is that he steals from a corp/alliance something like that. when some one with godlike power s up, it turns the outcome of the biggest wars, of the player okonomi, and most importent it damage the trust in ccp as a company. they can have all those your saying, but NOT on the account of the company of which they are paid to work for. it's actually really easy, as the former blizzard employee said, there system was VERY clear for what you can and what you can't do, why was it a problem to have the same in eve? well it was and now its time for consequence for the stupidity to regain the trust that they lost Originally by:** Tortun Nahme oh ya thats right Dev's arent allow to make friends Dev's arent allow to have fun Dev's arent allowed to enjoy their work Dev's arent allowed to answer their phone Players are allowed to make any claim they want regardless of having nothing but here say Players are allowed to whine about everything Players who get banned were obviously conspired against and must raise forum drama Players own the game, the devs are our slaves /sarcasm ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:22:00 - [230] and yet none of that has happened
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:24:00 - [231] Originally by: Tortun Nahme says a goon, which if we type cast, makes you a cheater yourself ow i gues my vote doesn't count then? and which means that i can not be the one taking hold of the problem?! (besides for the info i traded this char, i took it over when it joined DVII, else i would have no problems of you calling me a cheater if i have had the knowledge of cheating without reporting it) ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:26:00 - [232] Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: Tortun Nahme says a goon, which if we type cast, makes you a cheater yourself ow i gues my vote doesn't count then? and which means that i can not be the one taking hold of the problem?! (besides for the info i traded this char, i took it over when it joined DVII, else i would have no problems of you calling me a cheater if i have had the knowledge of cheating without reporting it) actually I was refering to the goon above you, but if you are a goon too then yes
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:27:00 - [233] Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 28/05/2007 18:26:28 Originally by: Tortun Nahme and yet none of that has happened delutioned peoples are impossible to argue with.. like trying to argue for gods existens "well you just gotta have faith.and a big smile". that's not a argue that have any logic to it. they have been cought before, and they have been cought again "maybe" this time not with there hands full of cookies but enough to start a major discussion and enough to be own in other games too. this should be more then enough to let people know that this is bad for the company, ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:28:00 - [234] Tortun, don't waste your breath, the OP and others are unwilling to listen to reason. Goons are determined to stir up trouble and will do so for as long as they keep losing in-game. The thread is pointless because CCP will continue to play the game, something most of the player base supports.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:30:00 - [235] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: Tortun Nahme says a goon, which if we type cast, makes you a cheater yourself ow i gues my vote doesn't count then? and which means that i can not be the one taking hold of the problem?! (besides for the info i traded this char, i took it over when it joined DVII, else i would have no problems of you calling me a cheater if i have had the knowledge of cheating without reporting it) actually I was refering to the goon above you, but if you are a goon too then yes i see it as a GOOD thing that people involved have the guts to actually do something about the corruption instead of just saying "ow well i was in a alliance that was a part of it so i better not try to solve the problem, come on BoB lets hold hands and keep it up, yup. but i suspect that you like the idea of just letting it "slip" and "it's no biggi" better right?... you should think by know people know how much these thing can hurt a game when not taken seriusly... ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:32:00 - [236] So you support the interference of CCPs services by bringing the forums down, an EULA violation? Goons are ruining this game, not CCP.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:33:00 - [237] Originally by: CrestoftheStars Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 28/05/2007 18:26:28 Originally by: Tortun Nahme and yet none of that has happened delutioned peoples are impossible to argue with.. like trying to argue for gods existens "well you just gotta have faith.and a big smile". that's not a argue that have any logic to it. they have been cought before, and they have been cought again "maybe" this time not with there hands full of cookies but enough to start a major discussion and enough to be own in other games too. this should be more then enough to let people know that this is bad for the company, "delusioned"? Lets see, people "accused" ccp of cheating, of the 4 allegations 2 have been shot down as unwarrented, and the other two are laughable to begin with, a PREVIOUS incident of ONE member misuing power does not translate to immediate guilt The fact that the people MAKING the accusation are questionable at BEST leads me to the conclusion that I'd rather not be one of the squealing sheep screaming murder. he rest of your post made no sense so I am just going to assume english isn't your first language and leave it at that
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:33:00 - [238] Originally by: Krugerrand Tortun, don't waste your breath, the OP and others are unwilling to listen to reason. Goons are determined to stir up trouble and will do so for as long as they keep losing in-game. The thread is pointless because CCP will continue to play the game, something most of the player base supports. you mean something that the players that KNOWS the ccp and gets goodies from them have supported.. who is it thats not listening to reason?! us that tryis to show you what and WHY any other mmo are doing it as they are, even a former employee from the biggest mmo in the world are saying that the way it is done in eve is crazy. or you guys which argue is "well it doesn't hurt any one... too much"... emm yer right. so i can see your point, we are the ones that will not listen to reason lol... ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:35:00 - [239] Originally by: Tortun Nahme "delusioned"? Lets see, people "accused" ccp of cheating, of the 4 allegations 2 have been shot down as unwarrented, and the other two are laughable to begin with, a PREVIOUS incident of ONE member misuing power does not translate to immediate guilt The fact that the people MAKING the accusation are questionable at BEST leads me to the conclusion that I'd rather not be one of the squealing sheep screaming murder. he rest of your post made no sense so I am just going to assume english isn't your first language and leave it at that Well I'm glad someone put it better than I ever could. ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:36:00 - [240] Edited by: Plutoinum on 28/05/2007 18:36:11 Originally by: CrestoftheStars as you said it would be awesome for the staff... but i kind of miss the part where it benefith the gamers?! which this is about. this is about the staff not beeing able to become a problem for the gamers.. I think it benefits the players, if devs play the game (in a correct way ofc). As long as they play the game, they are able to understand the issues of the players, know how the game is played by the players. The are directly involved in what's going on, experience problems themselves, see what problems other players have, who play with them, what they enjoy and what not. As long as they play themselves, the are also less likely to totally screw up the game by stupid changes. I remember comments of unsatisfied customers like: 'Do you guys even play your game ?' all to well. And I doubt that an extra dev-server would solve it. It's just not the same. It's like trying to understand current capital warfare, blobs or how a newbie experiences the game by playing on the testserver. Doesn't work. And if they stop playing the game, EVE might really become WoW in space to make money. As long as they play they are maybe afraid to ruin their game.

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