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Karasuma Akane Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.28 04:08:00 - [151] Originally by: Fedacorr Edited by: Fedacorr on 27/05/2007 22:04:29 Devs absolutely should be able and encouraged to 'play the game'. Devs should absolutely never be allowed to have those player characters be in any player corp or alliance. Not ever. If they need to understand corp play, let the dev characters form their own corp together. No CCP employees should be members of player corporations and alliances. Let them stay in NPC corps or create CCP corps that don't participate in alliance activities. Devs and GMs need to decide what is more important, their job or their gaming, and if they can't be adult & mature enough to keep their professional and personal lives separated, let them look for work elsewhere. It's called integrity. ----- The possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately 3,720 to 1.
Raketenkaese	Posted - 2007.05.28 04:24:00 - [152] Originally by: The Pointless Leeeeeeets just get this one tiny little thing or two straight: To date there has only been one (proven, admitted and dealt with) incident... You know, theres a saying which goes something like this ... 'One time is one time too many'. It s one thing if you muck up you presonal stuff due to bad character and discipline, but in a context like this you simply cant afford it, and especially not handle it like the rest of ccp s done. If it was one dev who stepped outside the boundaries and shuved his dirty little fingers in the cookie jar and ccp then decides to keep him on and doesnt come forth entirely with what actions they ve taken towards the offending staff, they jump into the same boat. The dev should be fired and CCP become totally transparant in these matters, in an internet environment especially. They owe that to their customers, themselves, their shareholders and whom ever else might have an interest in their activities.
Pudgy d'Noob	Posted - 2007.05.28 04:32:00 - [153] Originally by: The Pointless Leeeeeeets just get this one tiny little thing or two straight: To date there has only been one (proven, admitted and dealt with) incident... Additionally, there have been more than one proven occurances. There was the occurance with the t2 BPOs being spawned. THere was also the case of the new GM spawning faction ships and faction gear for himself. Both of these cases were discovered by players and reported to the community by players. Who knows how often this really occurs? The only instances the players ever know about are the times when the culprit is caught by the players. Tranparancy is not in the CCP handbook.
WhitePhantom Gallente Edenists	Posted - 2007.05.28 04:33:00 - [154] Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob 1) Employees at a casino are not allowed to gamble at the casino, even if that would give them better insight on how to operate the casino. Employees of a lottery are not allowed to play that lottery. not even their families can participate. Ever wonder why? The casino can pay people to give them feedback, your also dealing with a different thing, something you can present to somebody in a formal matter. As a programmer, really the only way to be able to do something, is to experience it yourself. For example the only way to know if the changes to Vista's start menu was a good idea, was to actually do it, then experience it yourself and get additional feedback. Which is what I believe CCP to be doing with Revlations 2 on the test server, and to know if thats a good idea, they have had to experience it before the suggested changes. Just like that Microsoft programmer had to experience Windows XP before he changed something for Vista. I know this is a horrible explain, but as a Computer Science student, I understand the position the developers at CCP must face.
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.28 05:02:00 - [155] All mmosÆs have devs and gmÆs. All mmoÆs have test servers which are open to general players. All other mmoÆs have devs playing on test servers. No other mmoÆs have devs and customers in the same corp/ guild/ clan on a public server. Some mmoÆs allow devs/gms to play on public servers under rigid guidelines. (devs are typically not allowed to reveal their identity to anyone and have no access to dev functions while using personal accounts) No other mmoÆs have the ôcurrent problemö that is going on here.
Relaria Hossin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.28 05:06:00 - [156] Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 05:11:17 Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 05:06:01 Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 05:05:27 Originally by: Ira Theos Edited by: Ira Theos on 27/05/2007 21:08:57 Edited by: Ira Theos on 27/05/2007 20:50:45 My personal thought about CCP personnel playing on Tranquility is that they should never be allowed to be part of any Corp or Alliance. As a suggestion, perhaps CCP's people should be divided into their own special groups and allowed to fight each other in Empire space in such a way that they do not affect any of the "real" politics or assets in the game. They might even use these groups as the basis around which they carry out "managed" events. This would accomplish two things. First, they could get the necessary real-time stress testing they are looking for and second, since it would occur in Empire, THE NEW PLAYERS IN EMPIRE WOULD GET A LOOK AT THE BIG SHIPS IN ACTION (and maybe salvage some nice wrecks?), which would give them a taste of what they might get involved in if they make the move to zero. I stopped reading this thread when I got to this post so I don't know what you've all been talking about since it. What if the GMs and Devs were all restricted to NPC corps where they run everything instead of letting a "npc guy 433" do it. Maybe they could be the different races. Imagine having the Caldari navy flying ships built by GMs with production NPC characters, the Caldari navy pilots themselves also DEVs and staff. They could battle against NPC factions and the other races which would also be run by other staff. I would want to come work for CCP if this were the case. ****in' awesome. Edit: I bet this would start some awesome inter-office rivalries.
Hammer Ziet	Posted - 2007.05.28 05:29:00 - [157] I'm with Relaria Hossin on this one. Let them play, but NPC factions. You want RP events to turn out a certain (scripted) way? What about cleaning up the macro miners and ratters in their sphere's of intrest? They (the GMs/Devs/ISD) could be such a positive force is so many more ways contributing to the companies reputation instead of the few (I hope and want to believe) who tarnish it.
Phoebus Athenian Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 05:30:00 - [158] No Game staff should be just professionals... Start a staff only server or just play on SISI! A place that staff can't affect/destroy. For the obvious reasons of lack of professionalism... ---
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 05:51:00 - [159] as you said it would be awesome for the staff... but i kind of miss the part where it benefith the gamers?! which this is about. this is about the staff not beeing able to become a problem for the gamers.. if you look at the top of this tread i have set a little post where you can see that all arguments i have heard will fall to the ground. Originally by: Relaria Hossin Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 05:11:17 Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 05:06:01 Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 05:05:27 Originally by: Ira Theos Edited by: Ira Theos on 27/05/2007 21:08:57 Edited by: Ira Theos on 27/05/2007 20:50:45 My personal thought about CCP personnel playing on Tranquility is that they should never be allowed to be part of any Corp or Alliance. As a suggestion, perhaps CCP's people should be divided into their own special groups and allowed to fight each other in Empire space in such a way that they do not affect any of the "real" politics or assets in the game. They might even use these groups as the basis around which they carry out "managed" events. This would accomplish two things. First, they could get the necessary real-time stress testing they are looking for and second, since it would occur in Empire, THE NEW PLAYERS IN EMPIRE WOULD GET A LOOK AT THE BIG SHIPS IN ACTION (and maybe salvage some nice wrecks?), which would give them a taste of what they might get involved in if they make the move to zero. I stopped reading this thread when I got to this post so I don't know what you've all been talking about since it. What if the GMs and Devs were all restricted to NPC corps where they run everything instead of letting a "npc guy 433" do it. Maybe they could be the different races. Imagine having the Caldari navy flying ships built by GMs with production NPC characters, the Caldari navy pilots themselves also DEVs and staff. They could battle against NPC factions and the other races which would also be run by other staff. I would want to come work for CCP if this were the case. ****in' awesome. Edit: I bet this would start some awesome inter-office rivalries. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 05:57:00 - [160] Originally by: FarScape III Edited by: FarScape III on 28/05/2007 02:58:50 Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob Edited by: Pudgy d''Noob on 28/05/2007 02:54:51 Originally by: The Pointless Edited by: The Pointless on 28/05/2007 02:41:23 Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob 1) Employees at a casino are not allowed to gamble at the casino, even if that would give them better insight on how to operate the casino. Employees of a lottery are not allowed to play that lottery. not even their families can participate. Ever wonder why? ONE major difference... Casinos offer real-world cash as prizes. EVE doesn't. And EVE is not a lottery. Eve is a game. Casinos offer games. Real world rewards can be more than just cash. Entertainment offers an equitable amount of utility, utility that could otherwise be purchased with cash. While the game may not pay cash, it does offer the opportunity to barter. Anything that is bartered carries value. Trading characters is a form of bartering. My time invested into the game is represented by opportunity costs, the opportunity I would have to make real life cash. By allowing isk to be traded for items that are purchased for real cash, ccp has placed tangible value on ingame time. Eve contains a lottery. Your time invested is made better by them being able to play their own game, and by the way you are talking here, you need to get a REAL LIFE :) P.S. Do you want the people who run your government to live in ANOTHER country? this is just rubbish!!!!! do NOT say things like this which you clearly don't know anything about, actually i have posted a quete from a former WoW employee that actually exsplains this quite well, instead of just posting READ though the post first, maybe you will find that there is already the argument you use and that it have been shot to the ground so hard that it imploided (found at site 5 top ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
UndergrounD Caldari Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.05.28 06:13:00 - [161] I'm only going by the title of this thread, couldnt be bothered to read the op's post Yes they should play, its the ultimate form of quality control tbh. -----------------------------------------------
MehTheTrader University of Caille	Posted - 2007.05.28 06:18:00 - [162] I absolutely disgusted with games with cheats. Cheating is rampant in ccp no doubt, how can it not be with the system. CCP's defense against cheating is they trust their devs, this is omfg rediclous. The funniest/sadest part of this all is they rehired t20. LIKE WHAT IS WRONG WITH CCP!!??
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.28 06:41:00 - [163] EVE didn't come falling out of the sky and EVE isn't as original as everyone think it is. Homeworld was revolutionary because it led to EVE and other games. Now I'm just waiting for Homeworld online to be created and released. I will leave EVE without a thought. So why am I playing EVE? Because there's no alternative to EVE. There simply is no other game like it. CCP are a bunch of amatures because there is NO concequence for any wrongdoing on the part of CCP employees. I used to play a game called Knight Online and it was a great game untill it came to light that K2 (the company running KO) was actively helping one certain clan in the game. This clan had friends in K2 and all they had to do was ask for whatever they wanted and they got it. They were given characters and items which were editted for them. Then special events for that clan were held and everyone else was excluded from these things. Then one day a GM got banned and his great crime was not helping this clan. The leader of this clan had demanded something which this GM refused to give/do and he got punished. In the wake of this ban nearly all GM's left and only a few were left. 99% Of the time there was no GM online so cheating was rampant and then when the GM's did come online the only clan that was exempt from bans was that one particular clan. Are CCP actively involed in helping a clan/alliance? I can't claim that but there is NO concequence for anything that any of their employees does. t20 Would have been banned from any normal MMO but because he either has friends in the management of CCP or adds some 'value' to the team of developers he was kept. Is this good for the game? Sure it is, untill an alternative is released and the game dies. Then we can all sit back and say, well done CCP. You killed a great game and that's exactly what CCP are doing. And thus you can all go on and on about what laws CCP base the corruption in the game on but it's obvious that CCP won't care untill the company no longer exists. Obviously CCP are a corrupt firm because certain individuals in the game have Dev's MSN. If this isn't corrupt then why shouldn't we have them too? Why not make them public and not hide behind so called EULA's which are only meant to help a privilged few? Would the game become unbalanced if everyone had a friend who spawned BPO's and whatever else for them and left them there for 6 months? There is NO way that CCP are going to be able to claim the banning of the ISD reporter was done cleanly and legitimately since there NEVER was a petition. Now I'm sure they can edit the databse but we all know that what happened happened at the whim of BoD. CCP I recommend you get your act together or you WILL go the way many other MMO's have gone. You will pay for this secrecy for which there is absolutely no need. If you don't I pray that Sierra make Homeworld Online. Then you will see how many people stay.
Biatchen	Posted - 2007.05.28 06:45:00 - [164] Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: CrestoftheStars So I say: No they should not be in the game as a player. And I say: YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for. The problem is they are not mutially exclusive, they can't program and improve a game they aren't playing as they will just make unbalanced changes, the facts of life are they need to be able to play and they shouldn't be banned from playing just because they have access to these high level tools. Hogwash Bob Alt! I don't know of any other MMO that allows their Devs, GMs whatever to play in high profile clans or corps etc IF! they let them play at all. The Right to play should be earned and before you says "It's their game" Remember we are all paying for unbiased service here. I Vote No CCP employee should be allowed to play with or contact out of game any account holder period! they have already been busted once and then covered up anything that reared it's ugly head since. They were given not one but Two chances now and you deem we should give them a third? GOT MSN?
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.28 06:48:00 - [165] That was one half of my rant. Getting to the second part: To prevent EVE from going down in history as a failure I hope that CCP sets concrete rules and regulations which are strictly enforced. This means that any wrongdoing is punished immediately by a ban. Once these rules are enforced we can have Dev's and GM's playing the game and there's no need for them not to be in any particular alliance/corp/clan because any mistake is harshly dealt with. That will restore credibility and will make the need for another EVE/HW like game unnecessary.
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.28 06:56:00 - [166] Edited by: Terminus adacai on 28/05/2007 07:01:48 The fact that there have been broaches of trust in the past says it all. I agree with them being able to play the same toons we have access to, but remove these coded god powers. They can do play god on Serenity. Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Aleranie	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:16:00 - [167] Yes they should be able to play the game. I very much want them to enjoy the game, and make it a better game because of it. However, they need to be professional enough to know that aiding their friends with their incomparable insight into game mechanics is blatantly unfair. Responding to msn'd requests to get a volunteer removed is so beyond even that bright line, its in another country.
Mortania Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:17:00 - [168] I'd guess Kieron agrees with your point. Note that he vehemently denies being in any player run alliance. He's the one that came from outside the industry into CCP. He understands conflicts of interest and not putting yourself in a position to even appear biased, because that is what ultimately matters, the appearance of bias, not the actual bias. Personally, I implore Keiron to be the voice of reason in CCP. This conflict of interest and appearance of bias MUST be stopped. It WILL be the ruin of EVE, maybe not now, maybe not for another year or so. But community faith is being eroded, and once it goes, there will be no earning it back. Please save this game that we all love so much. --- CCP: Please disallow your employees from playing normal player accounts.
Roland San	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:18:00 - [169] Originally by: WhitePhantom Wouldn't a fine do something similar? Why must somebody lose their job, to make a point, since we don't know how they punish the offenders we cannot judge their punishment now can we? I don't even want to know how they do punish those people, because its thats person's well being that was effected. If they wanted to make it public, then they could, it just would have to be prior knowlege to begin working for CCP. I still think there is alot to be seen, and till then, I think all these claims are hog wash. A fine would be nothing more that a slap on the wrist. Take the typical pod pilot. He is bound by the EULA CCP has set up. Breaching that EULA will result in a ban. The banned account owner would've lost whatever real-life money, time and effort put into that particular account. It's pretty clear, breach the EULA, and bye-bye account. Now take your typical dev. He is in a position of responsibility, which demands a certain amount of integrity and honesty. He should by all means be bound by a set of rules that are as defining and specific as the EULA that governs the rest of eve community. This is to ensure that when that dev is in-game, in any event where a conflict of interest may arise, he should know where he stands, and what the repercussions to his actions are. If he fails to adhere by the rules, it is through his irresponsibility that his integrity and honesty can be called into doubt. Now, there should be no reason for a company to retain an employee who has broken the rules and broken that trust. Breach the rules, and bye-bye job. In the past, it's clear that there really hasn't been a set of defining guidelines set, hence the current situation. Things have to change, CCP has to get tough on this, or people will get disillusioned. People would want to invest time and effort into a solid company with a strong sense of professionalism and a top notch product. As it stands now, two out of three isn't cutting it.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:25:00 - [170] The ex blizard employee: I wonder why he is an ex employee. I also wonder what position he held. The other games: The other games don't have a single shard server with 200k players. The other games aren't developed by CCP. CCP is for...: Companies have an objective, most often that is to make money. Sometimes it has a different objective, something that is entirely personal to the owners of the company. We pay for it: Sure we do, but we pay for it on their terms. Nothing that has been done by T20 has been illegal, it could have been against company policy (and then grounds for dismissal). Some seem to forget that there might not have been any company policy regarding this issue before the whole T20 incident. There should be one now, I even find it acceptable that it isn't grounds for dismissal. CCP has always been very straightforward with what kind of game Eve-online is, it's a sandbox where anything goes. You have no guarantees of fair play, balance, or real world rules governing competition. I would love to see the look on the face of the judge that something like this is brought before. God tools: I highly doubt that the 'god' tools everyone keeps mentioning are integrated into the eve client. I expect these tools to be seperate programs that directly connect to the database and servers. I could be wrong, but why not ask a dev how the toolset works and if it's integrated with the eve client. ps. I'm bowing out of this 'discussion', mostly because i get this feeling that i'm talking to a brickwall (no offense intended).
Rod Steel	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:30:00 - [171] Edited by: Rod Steel on 28/05/2007 07:31:24 Let them all play eve as often as they want, as long as it's on a regular account, not one of those "god mode" jobs they are currently using. That way they can still monitor the game, and see what effect any changes are having, or what is needed. Having gm's/devs playing in a game full of paying customers on a "god mode" account, and being biased toward a certain portion of that paying player base is just asking for trouble, bloody naive, and should never have been allowed to occur. As I mentioned in a earlier post, after all that has transpired, even suggesting the paying player base follow the rules of the EULA is a joke, when their own people can and have done far more damage to the game than a single paying player ever could just by ignoring the EULA...oh, the irony...
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:30:00 - [172] does not matter if devs have player characters or not. even if they don't ppl will "make friendship" with them on fan fests to receive a direct msn line for asking small favors like scout certain system in polaris frig 24/7 and such.
Mortania Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:31:00 - [173] Originally by: Cergorach The ex blizard employee: I wonder why he is an ex employee. I also wonder what position he held. That's the cheapest bull. A massive percentage of the entire company left after completing WoW because basically no one who worked on the product got any sort of bonuses. Not a dime. Thanks for the 100s of Millions. Keep working hard! I know nothing but ex-Blizzard employees. I don't know anyone who stayed on but the highest of the high. --- CCP: Please disallow your employees from playing normal player accounts.
Mallikanth	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:35:00 - [174] Originally by: Ryas Nia Yes they should play the game, Yes you should have ISD/GM's in game, No you should not have developer accounts in game. Yep. Succinct and correct IMHO.
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:38:00 - [175] Edited by: Ben Nato on 28/05/2007 07:39:47 We pay for quality, regardless of EULA. It may state in the EULA that there's no guarantee yet you still have the right to a refund or a new product simply through the protection of the law. The law on the net is basically non-existant however, CCP are based in Iceland and this Icelandic law apply. Also EVE's server is based in London, and thus British law applies. If neither offer protection then maybe there're EU statutes that do. If not then EVE might be a registed product in the US thus falling under US law aswell. CCP have an office in China and so even fall under Chinese law (which is so lax that a Titan won't have a single problem flying through the holes). Take your pick. EULA has no bearing in this case, only national and international law. There were companies in the EU who did not offer refunds to unsatisfied customers. Laws were introduced to ensure that customers were given the right service regardless of company law and policy. Do a little research you will see your claims that we only 'pay' for a product without the guarantee that we will get what we pay for is totally deluded. "We can't help you with your 5000 Euro T.V. sir, the EULA states clearly that we will not help you in case of malfunction or any other accident within any timelimit". I thank everyone who posted such trash for protecting rogue traders and I'm glad we have Brussels who will, to the best of their ability, protect us from you.
Ambris Kobayashi	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:47:00 - [176] I am wondering, wasn't the test server made to test things. So basically Devs shouldn't have any power on the live server, only GMs should have and all the tools they can use can be monitored. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if it is allready sorted like this. But perhaps this whole discussion is about GMs only. It will always be possible for them to have some extra information they can use in the game, but it will only be about upcoming changes. regards, Ambris
Adaris Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:49:00 - [177] To OP: Your only addressing the GMs/Gods that are breaking the rules and helping people. By all means they should be removed from GM status and demoted to normal players, but not every other GM who follows the rules of this game (ccp rules too) and does their job by helping out thousands of people per day. Your enitre argument to me is based on all GMs doing this, its not the case. A few bad apples, and you condemn the enitre orchard. Honestly. Please Help me, YOU could be next!
Belenkas	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:49:00 - [178] Being Developer in another game, I can assure you it is in best DEV intentions to keep the gameplay fair and DEV never constructs tools for himself to use ingame to make him uber-player. That's of course if the developers are looking forward to keeping the game alive and actually earning money for living from it. I am sure EVE is amongst those(despite some bad experiences regarding developer misconduct in the past) Playing the game you create makes it possible to see some unbalanced stuff yourself, since amongst players there always are 1000 opinions. And playing the game you create just makes work be fun.
Mr Adequate Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.28 08:07:00 - [179] First some suggestions, can't we have a decent poll option in this forum? Oh, and a user driven discussion moderation system would help get rid of the drivel a little (my head still hurts from reading 107+ pages over the weekend ) I really miss +5 insightful. On dev's / GM's playing on the main server: (1) Yes, they can play ; but nobody should know about their alts, telling people that your alt is a dev is a firing offence. Also, no god mode powers for dev's on the main server. They find a problem -- recreate it on the test server. Its there for a reason; and allows for any possible problem. CCP should strictly enforce this. Off duty, they can have their pow-pow with the rest of us. (2) GM's need tools for their job. They can have some nice point-and-click webtools that allow them to read petitions, fix agents, make customers happy . However, access should be restricted to needs-only basis. GM's should have a code of conduct ; and every decission should leave a papertrail that can be appealed. Eg. you ban someone; motivate why. No petition can be deleted or closed without stating why. (3) Access to the main user database should be restricted to authorised staff only. Someone mentioned you can play this game from an SQL command line. Nice, but not really necessary is it? Eg. only GM's properly shielded should be able to do things on the database ; and admin db staff only needs to backup / modify tables on dev request. (Eg. your paper trail) CCP's most important assest are (1) The user client (2) The online world that is eve, and which is essentially a big MSSQL db. (3) Its 200,000 happy subscribers Together these three create lots of $$$ for CCP. A broken client loses customers, a corrupt game environment loses customers, ***** customers tend to move on. This games eats everyones time, we play it for fun, sometimes the stakes are high. You lose its bad; if you feel someone cheated, you feel you wasted all your time so far and you were a dumb fool for doing so.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.28 08:45:00 - [180] I think a lot of people are still missing out what the "developer accounts" are. These are not the accounts they play the game with, they are the ones with the dev tools which allow them to bug fix etc, without it they wouldn't be able to handle petitions (anyone remember the devs helping on the queue 6months- year ago?), or go to Jita to investigate the lag. Having Test server only accounts severly limits their ability to improve the game, having player accounts allows them to invesitigate issues fully. Furthermore, limiting their regular player accounts to NPC corps/dev only corps would limit their involvement in 0.0 affairs yes, but this would mean they would struggle in the development of 0.0 warfare. Many of the proposed changes in Rev 2.0 come down to the fact that the devs have played the game, done POS warfare, created outposts and can see how they are not fun and can find ways to improve them. Also if a dev corp was created and they decided to go on a raid, killed everything and lost nothing, many people would claim they are cheating, when they are not. I like the fact the devs play the game and get to enjoy all elements of it, they have worked hard at it and with the odd exception, they play fair.

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