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should Dev's and GM's be allowed to be ingame players(vote/discussion)

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CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:11:00 - [1] Please read the whole tread before replaying, please do not troll, flame, spam or use inappropriate languish, everything you say that do not follow the eula or in any way breaks the forum rules will not be a cause of this tread, by replaying on this tread you agree to this: Devs and gm is a necessarily for the game, they do a good job keeping the server free for exploiters cheaters hackers and other people that will make harm on the paying costumers game time. The devs make a good job developing new stuff, correcting bugs and making sure everything is balanced out so that you can have fun. This is why we are paying them for their very nice service and help. Now what happens when a gm or a dev joins in the game and start getting involved in the playing of the game instead of doing it as an enjoyable job? Well as any other person would, you will do whatever you can to help out your own corp and alliance, which is a good thing because every one should do what they can for there own corps and alliance. The devÆs and gm makes sure that whatever you do, you canÆt break the rules that is in the game to make it fair for every one, which is a good thing because then you donÆt have hackers doing something that will give an unfair advantage, and the devs and gmÆs is doing a good job making sure that our money are getting us the service we deserve. This is where the problem comes in, because when a dev or a gm joins the game as a player that dev or gm is like a ôGodö joining the war, and of course they want to do the best for there own alliance or corp, but when a God joins in then the game gets unbalanced and the one that should make sure this isnÆt happening is that God itself which of course will not stop itself, this gives an unfair advantage and suddenly the service we are paying for is no longer a ôsure thingö and the god have forgotten itÆs purpose and thereby forgotten why it was set there. We all know of those things that have been happening where gmÆs or devs have gone in and broken their purpose to help out BoB with there godly powers. And we only know of those times where the God have failed to keep it a secret. Well I would say that this is the biggest growing problem in this universe of EVE. I do not think that the devs or gm should be joining the game as gamers, since this is something that will without doubt only do something bad for the gamers, it will unbalance and destroy the very concept the game was made upon. So here is my vote. I say that devÆs and gmÆs should not be allowed to be in the game as gamers since they fail to do their jobs which we are paying for while involving themselves personally in the outcome of the ingame politics. A god should watch and create, not be the one doing running the show amongst the players and doing the stuff. So I say: No they should not be in the game as a player. And I say: YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for. Cots. Ps: this is a vote and a discussing there is NO reasonable explanation to close this tread or ban me from either forum or game for taking this discussion and vote up, which you as the devÆs and as the people we are paying to provide us a service that some of your staff members are clearly not competent to withhold, should listen to and do what is right and logic. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:13:00 - [2] Yes they should play the game, Yes you should have ISD/GM's in game, No you should not have developer accounts in game. Recruiting Terrorists
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:14:00 - [3] Originally by: CrestoftheStars So I say: No they should not be in the game as a player. And I say: YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for. The problem is they are not mutially exclusive, they can't program and improve a game they aren't playing as they will just make unbalanced changes, the facts of life are they need to be able to play and they shouldn't be banned from playing just because they have access to these high level tools. ---------
Shinris	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:14:00 - [4] i agree to the OP on this matter since they don't seem to be able to controll it. if you can't controll it you shouldn't be allowed to do it
Aqwis Silaman Caldari The League of Legitimate Nigerian Businessmen	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:15:00 - [5] I agree with Cypherous - a game where the developers have no insight in how their game works as a player is not a good game. As long as they don't have too many in one corporation or alliance i'm perfectly fine with the developers playing the game even in 0.0 alliances. --- L¦G1T1M+T3 N1G3R1+N BUS1N3SSM+N
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:19:00 - [6] Originally by: Ryas Nia Yes they should play the game, Yes you should have ISD/GM's in game, No you should not have developer accounts in game. why?! Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: CrestoftheStars So I say: No they should not be in the game as a player. And I say: YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for. The problem is they are not mutially exclusive, they can't program and improve a game they aren't playing as they will just make unbalanced changes, the facts of life are they need to be able to play and they shouldn't be banned from playing just because they have access to these high level tools. the problem is that they can't controll the tools when they are ingame as players. and in any other mmo they do just fine by seeing, listening and testing, in eve they unbalance the players by doing stuff that they are not suppose to, using there godlike powers in a nonacceptable way. there would be no problem for them developing the game without having to be a part of the ingame politic's. so i do not see the reason for them to be here?. they don't add anything to the game that we couldn't do ourselves. but they put in a element that is really bad which would not be here if they didn't play it as players but only as dev/gms ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:20:00 - [7] And how exactly do you expect them to improve the game when all they have is the word of the players and no hands-on experience of whatever needs improvement? Sure, Devs and GMs playing the game as players runs the risk of temptation setting in and whatnot, can you honestly say you haven't been tempted to commit any wrongdoing in your job? In your everyday life? Eh? The Devs and GMs have just as much right to play this game as players, just the same as the paying customers. One measly incident and some (as yet unproven - just wait, will you?) allegations are going to change my opinion on it. ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:20:00 - [8] Yes they should. Even if only so they can enjoy Eve too. 99% of the 'issues' that have actually resulted in action on CCP's behalf involve players exploiting the game. 0.9% involve volunteers and maybe 0.1% involve employees. So, don't worry this much. If the 0.1% gains even a fractionally better understanding of their game that they can apply to battling the 99% you're winning. note: these stats are entirely made up of course, as all stats on the internet are. The gist of the argumetn should be clear to anyone that's outgrown the foetal stage however. [center] Old blog
Sathamarid	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:20:00 - [9] No GMs in non-NPC corps. Or put em all in the same corp. Having a dev with dev roles and rights in any player owned corp is a terrible idea -- conflict of interest.
Larg Kellein Caldari GTE Corp Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:22:00 - [10] Devs and GMs, in particular devs, need to play the game to understand the implication of game changes in a real environment. Yes, there has to be sanctions for abuse of power or inside knowledge, but only the most dimwitted would risk his job for his player character. And we don't need dimwits playing the game, let alone developing it. So as long as there are repurcussions for cheating, for players and devs alike, we're good. Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:24:00 - [11] the difference is that they get PAID to NOT play the game as gamers, but as developers, thereby beeing able to improve and test whatever the players think is a problem to see if this is so and then fix it. we do not pay them to play and have fun while unbalancing, cheating and spawning things for specific gain for there alliance. and yer sure i would be tempted to, and that is WHY they should not be in as players. no reason playing with fire when it is not nessesary Originally by: The Pointless And how exactly do you expect them to improve the game when all they have is the word of the players and no hands-on experience of whatever needs improvement? Sure, Devs and GMs playing the game as players runs the risk of temptation setting in and whatnot, can you honestly say you haven't been tempted to commit any wrongdoing in your job? In your everyday life? Eh? The Devs and GMs have just as much right to play this game as players, just the same as the paying customers. One measly incident and some (as yet unproven - just wait, will you?) allegations are going to change my opinion on it. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:25:00 - [12] 1.) This isn't our call to make. Just because we pay x amount a month to play the game, doesn't give us the right to set policy. And no, the customer isn't always right. 2.) Eve-online isn't like your regular commercial MMO, you just can't replace an Eve dev with someone that isn't intimately familiar with the game (and you can't be that without playing it). When you stop playing the game when you become a dev, you'll loose touch with the game (and that is bad for us). 3.) The current devs are motivated by three things: a.) love of the game, b.) beer, and c.) money (in that order). Hiring capable devs that are alright with not playing the game are going to be motivated by more money. Would you be willing to spend more a month on eve, so that we don't have devs playing the game?
Angel Devereux	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:26:00 - [13] I would vote yes, they should be allowed to have accounts in game. There's been one incident, and it's been dealt with. What I see now is a bunch of people who look at BOB and think that it's all due to someone giving them everything because they have something you want. Nevermind that they have been one of the biggest groups around for quite a while. I've done development work (not in games), and the worst work has been on applications that I had no real understanding of the use of. My best work, on the other hand, has been on applications that I saw a use for in my own experiences. I'm not a friend of BOB here, and I'm not a dev for any game.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Sathamarid No GMs in non-NPC corps. Or put em all in the same corp. Having a dev with dev roles and rights in any player owned corp is a terrible idea -- conflict of interest. finally some non bob-pet/alts answers ;) Originally by: Larg Kellein Devs and GMs, in particular devs, need to play the game to understand the implication of game changes in a real environment. Yes, there has to be sanctions for abuse of power or inside knowledge, but only the most dimwitted would risk his job for his player character. And we don't need dimwits playing the game, let alone developing it. So as long as there are repurcussions for cheating, for players and devs alike, we're good. well even so they don't lose there job by doing this EVEN if they get cought their is no real risk for doing so and the properbillity of beeing cought is VERY small since it's them running the checks on who is cheating and doing stuff. there is no reason for them to participate in a alliance longtime as a gamer, they could whenever it was needed make up a char and participate in any fight with one on each side to test how it works, this would not have any effect on the players, or make a corp for PURE gm/devs (maybe a few testers that was tempararely just to test things out. i see no logic in having gms and dev's in Bob+pets spawning isk, npc's, getting inside info, etc etc and all the things they have done that is totally unacceptable. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:30:00 - [15] Originally by: CrestoftheStars why?! Im all for personal accounts being on the main server, devs/ISD/GM's... why should they have to quit playing the game they love just to work on it. Not only that but I want them working on it, that way they know when there is imbalance or issues. What I dont support is Dev accounts on the main server. Thats where all the abuse is happening, xxx member is playing their personal account... something goes wrong, well hell i will log in my dev acct and fix it, ship replaced, bpo respawned in hanger... That is the sort of thing we cant have happening. Try playing the game for 4 years and building an alliance your tied to, then start working for the company who makes the game you love soooo much, and tell me its easy not to want to cheat, even just a little bit. I know for damn sure i would try as hard as i could but i could see myself slipping up. They are human, and should be treated as such, mistakes will happen. Recruiting Terrorists
QwaarJet Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:31:00 - [16] I vote devs and gms should be banned from having accounts. It's the only sensible way forward, unless CCP actually do like looking like corrupt prats in the media. "Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimeter Of Wisdom.Run!"
Fwuffy Wabbit	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:33:00 - [17] How about restricting all ccp employees/helpers chars & their alts etc to corporations that do not belong to an alliance, thus negating any possible bias.
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:34:00 - [18] Originally by: CrestoftheStars the difference is that they get PAID to NOT play the game as gamers, but as developers, thereby beeing able to improve and test whatever the players think is a problem to see if this is so and then fix it. we do not pay them to play and have fun while unbalancing, cheating and spawning things for specific gain for there alliance. and yer sure i would be tempted to, and that is WHY they should not be in as players. no reason playing with fire when it is not nessesary Leeeeeeets just get this one tiny little thing or two straight: To date there has only been one (proven, admitted and dealt with) incident - and from what I read, only one Dev was responsible? Hmmm? Secondly, the current allegations are still being investigated. We. Know. Nothing. Yet. Now that that's out of the way... Whether it was intended or not, you managed to dodge my question on temptation. OK, say you were working at a local corner shop. The owner has to bugger off to the cash-n-carry for stuff every Friday, leaving you to hold the fort for a couple of hours. Alone. There's already a shedload of cash in the till. Can you truly say that you would NOT be tempted to swipe a bit of that cash and go spend it on something, or build up the stolen cash over time to get that HD-ready TV you always wanted? ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Mogrin Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:34:00 - [19] No, they can't handle it apparently. _______________ Rokh vs. Hyperion
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:35:00 - [20] Originally by: Fwuffy Wabbit How about restricting all ccp employees/helpers chars & their alts etc to corporations that do not belong to an alliance, thus negating any possible bias. How would they ever know if there are bugs, issues or improvements that could be made to the way alliances run, work, own and manage things? Relying on volunteer bug hunters alone is a bad idea. Recruiting Terrorists
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Cergorach 1.) This isn't our call to make. Just because we pay x amount a month to play the game, doesn't give us the right to set policy. And no, the customer isn't always right. 2.) Eve-online isn't like your regular commercial MMO, you just can't replace an Eve dev with someone that isn't intimately familiar with the game (and you can't be that without playing it). When you stop playing the game when you become a dev, you'll loose touch with the game (and that is bad for us). 3.) The current devs are motivated by three things: a.) love of the game, b.) beer, and c.) money (in that order). Hiring capable devs that are alright with not playing the game are going to be motivated by more money. Would you be willing to spend more a month on eve, so that we don't have devs playing the game? when you pay for a product you are right to say "i do not which that you do something that will advantually lead to a misuse. as i have pointed out (and this is how they actually do it in most mmo's) i am not saying that they shouldn't play the game, but that they should NOT be in it as a player, but only as a dev or gm as we are paying them and exspecting them to do. and EVE is one of the most cash making mmo's out right now, so stop the "you will pay more tiptip thing.. because its not true" Originally by: Angel Devereux . please don't post with alt ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Bullitnutz Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:35:00 - [22] No, it's a conflict of interest. If you don't like the damn job, there are plenty others where you don't have dev/GM/ISD abilities, then you can play EVE. Sure, goonswarm blah blah blah, there's a reason we don't ALLOW anyone other than a regular player with no special ties to CCP in our alliance. That reason is legitimacy.
n0thing Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:35:00 - [23] Yes, they should play the game imo. You cant reproduce things on test server as you can see on live one. You can run thousand tests, and then in certain live situation it will all act different. Moreover, I would say that any mechanism can have hm...downsides? You cant create a perfect one. I can say that at the very least, devs do pretty much good job on the game, you may as well turn your views on other games when stuff added with no player-support to it, stuff changed without explnations, stuff buffed/nerfed without listening to player-base. Beleive me, each game has those above things, EVE to my view so far, got none of those. Ships & Modules prove it more then I can say. ---
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:37:00 - [24] OFC they should play the game They should just implement better countermeasures procedures to what happned recently - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy
Gudrun Hart	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:39:00 - [25] Yes, they should. It helps to develop EvE and that is more importand then 1 or 2 stupid actions by Dev or GM in 3 or 4 Years.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:40:00 - [26] Originally by: The Pointless Edited by: The Pointless on 27/05/2007 20:34:25 Originally by: CrestoftheStars the difference is that they get PAID to NOT play the game as gamers, but as developers, thereby beeing able to improve and test whatever the players think is a problem to see if this is so and then fix it. we do not pay them to play and have fun while unbalancing, cheating and spawning things for specific gain for there alliance. and yer sure i would be tempted to, and that is WHY they should not be in as players. no reason playing with fire when it is not nessesary Leeeeeeets just get this one tiny little thing or two straight: To date there has only been one (proven, admitted and dealt with) incident - and from what I read, only one Dev was responsible? Hmmm? Secondly, the current allegations are still being investigated. We. Know. Nothing. Yet. Now that that's out of the way... Whether it was intended or not, you managed to dodge my question on temptation. OK, say you were working at a local corner shop. The owner has to bugger off to the cash-n-carry for stuff every Friday, leaving you to hold the fort for a couple of hours. Alone. There's already a shedload of cash in the till. Can you truly say that you would NOT be tempted to swipe a bit of that cash and go spend it on something, or build up the stolen cash over time to get that HD-ready TV you always wanted? Originally by: CrestoftheStars finally some non bob-pet/alts answers ;) And FYI, I am no BoB-pet. I've never met any of them ingame and the only contact I've had with any BoB-member is through these very forums, thankyouverymuch. first of how hard is it to actually get them to ADMIT it?! they arn't even willing to admit that it's there bad server setup that's coursing lag. so if they admit it, it's apparently quite a big problem they run into and something they couldn't hide. if you read instead of just writing you would see that i did NOT avoid your quition and i gave it a straight answer. and as you say the tamptetion is big WHICH is WHY it makes no sense giving them such a high tamptetion right under there noise. and one more reason that they should not be playing as gamers along side with the normal gamers. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Zaethiel Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:40:00 - [27] Originally by: CrestoftheStars YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for. By playing the game they get to know their own game from a players point of view. My experience has been that if the devs are intricately involved in all aspects of the game the better the game. In other MMOs ive played ive known devs to play only PvE aspects and in those games there will be PvP problems even though the game has a massive PvP aspect. In short if the devs didnt play the same game they developed alot then the game would lack alot because they wouldnt be able to see first hand where they can improve upon the game and what needs fixing the most. The problem begins when Devs abuse their power. In MMOs they could tell their friends about classified up coming patches, insider trading in a sense where they can use that information to profit greatly off an investment. I used to do that myself Alpha testing games for their upcoming patches. Another way would be for them to physically spawn/create/give/manufacture something for himself or for someone else using out of game mechanics. Id have to say even if devs didnt play some of these things would still happen regardless. As long as the company watches for these things and catches/punishes people for doing it, then we gain far more by the devs first hand experiencing the game as everyone else does. _________________________________________
Hypatia Iola Caldari Central Defiance Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:40:00 - [28] as far as i'm concerned, what the ISD/Devs/whoever do when they're not on the job is none o my business, HOWEVER, it's ludicrous for them to actually be able to have upgraded accounts, the GM accounts and Dev accounts shouldn't be played like the rest of the game, it should be a maintenance deal. when they're not on the clock, they can have accounts just like everyone else, and that's fine. all anyone wants is for there not to be a Good Ol' Boy's Network going on... I represent only my own views, they just happen to be the right ones.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:43:00 - [29] Yes I think it is extremely important that the developers play their own game. It is the only way for them to truly get to know the issues with in their game. the stipulation should be that they play on CCP sponsored accounts so they can be monitored.
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:44:00 - [30] Originally by: CrestoftheStars if you read instead of just writing you would see that i did NOT avoid your quition and i gave it a straight answer. I did read your answer actually, but your answer was about the Devs' jobs as opposed to your own job, as per the question. ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:44:00 - [31] Originally by: Sathamarid No GMs in non-NPC corps. Or put em all in the same corp. Having a dev with dev roles and rights in any player owned corp is a terrible idea -- conflict of interest. There are no devs with dev rights or GM's with GM rights in player corps. There are just regular characters with no additional powers in player corps. [center] Old blog
iaikami IAC Development and Deployment Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:46:00 - [32] playing in the game? absolutely. you cant effectively work on what you do not actually use. Be involved in ANY large alliances? Political movements or major conflicts on any side or in any significant event (non GM fashion)? Absolutely not. There are 2 basic classes here, Providers and Customers. the 'current method' is unprofessional, creates clear conflicts of interest and will ALWAY be viewed as 'fixing the odds' by one side or another, even if nothing is really occurring. Human nature states that something WILL be occurring. "for every one you catch...." CCP should take the high road, remove ALL employee accounts from any major corp/alliance, and expressly prohibit any information sharing between the two classes. This should be closely monitored to prevent any possible conflict of interest. Eve's Strength was/is it's supposed 'player driven universe' even having the perception that there are 'strings being pulled' behind the scenes, in a manner that is partisan to one group or another is game breaking and unprofessional. Faith has been broken. It is going to take serious changes and some very open admission and correction of the apparent conflicts of interest, both to level the playing field and restore the trust of the average CUSTOMER. CCP (as the game Provider) should always remain above and impartial to the ENTIRE CUSTOMER base.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:46:00 - [33] Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 27/05/2007 20:48:49 are you "yes they should be allowed people" even reading the answers?! as i have said 4 times i think it is. there is NO reason that they play alongside every one else, they can create excatly the situation they like ingame and TEST it. if any one is saying something that could be a problem they create it and test it, if they want to test fleet battle they join a few on each side and i am SURE that no big alliance would have a problem with some dev/gm joining for a few battle to TEST something out. and this is not a discussion if they are doing a good job so keep that out of it (and yer i think they are, as i have made pritty clear in the first tread, but please stay on subject) btw i don't know of any other mmo where the dev/gm's are a big drive of the biggest alliance in the game. do you?! (should only be players deciding that not the "Gods" that tells us too) Originally by: n0thing Yes, they should play the game imo. You cant reproduce things on test server as you can see on live one. You can run thousand tests, and then in certain live situation it will all act different. Moreover, I would say that any mechanism can have hm...downsides? You cant create a perfect one. I can say that at the very least, devs do pretty much good job on the game, you may as well turn your views on other games when stuff added with no player-support to it, stuff changed without explnations, stuff buffed/nerfed without listening to player-base. Beleive me, each game has those above things, EVE to my view so far, got none of those. Ships & Modules prove it more then I can say. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:48:00 - [34] I would have said yes a while ago. But with the t20 incident and the recent problems makes me think it's better not to have devs and gm's play the game. It's their job to make eve as good as it can get,for fun, go play another game. I don't think that they have to play the game to be effective, but that's just my opinion.
Ysira Amarr Mortis et Excidium Cold Steel Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:48:00 - [35] No, they should have no private accounts on TQ. They can play on Singularity all they want. Having people with possible conflict of interests in a game is stupid. This should affect ISD members also, according to division ofc.
Dihania Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:49:00 - [36] Yeah. For one, best way to feel the community, not like reading the forums you know :) And second, best way to feel the game as it is, not as logs or whatever people say it is. So yes, as long as they do not cheat or influence the game in magical ways with the knowledge about the fact that there is no spoon, they should be allowed to play the game. ANONYMOUSLY TOO. (now me waits for the precious things the GM promised on return for this "pro" post) Null!!!!
BlacksouI	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:50:00 - [37] Edited by: BlacksouI on 27/05/2007 20:49:48 The biggest problem with not allowing DEV to play the game is that they would make changes based on perception and imbalance b/c they would not have handon experiences of the problem but from the vocal group who make the big noise. The current problem with CCP is that they hand out only carrots to DEV/GM/ISD but not stick to ensure the professional integrity of the company. Let take t20 case for example, he was not fired b/c 1. he is a big asset to the company or 2. he has a good relationship with the BOSS. This case nothing IA chief can do, he can only keep him under radar and wait out to defuse the tension. As for case 1, it is time for CCP to hand out the big stick to any DEV/GM/ISD who ruin the reputation of the company. With the right catalyst, you can ALWAYS find another talented people. As for professionalism, sometimes i feel CCP is being run by a group of amateurs. Every game on earth has a patch note section with a basic message of "Here is what we have improved to the game, and we would be glad to have you join the game or come back". When you dont have an active account with EVE and try to access EVE patch Note, do you know what message CCP will send you? "Blank you, we do not need you, we do not care about you" P.S. so how many times do we have to create a trial account just to access the patch note to see what is in store for EVE?
Ira Theos	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:52:00 - [38] Edited by: Ira Theos on 27/05/2007 20:50:45 My personal thought about CCP personnel playing on Tranquility is that they should never be allowed to be part of any Corp or Alliance. As a suggestion, perhaps CCP's people should be divided into their own special groups and allowed to fight each other in Empire space in such a way that they do not affect any of the "real" politics or assets in the game. They might even use these groups as the basis around which they carry out "managed" events. This would accomplish two things. First, they could get the necessary real-time stress testing thay are looking for and second, since it would occur in Empire, THE NEW PLAYERS IN EMPIRE WOULD GET A LOOK AT THE BIG SHIPS IN ACTION, which would give them a taste of what they might get involved in if they make the move to zero.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:53:00 - [39] Originally by: Dihania Yeah. For one, best way to feel the community, not like reading the forums you know :) And second, best way to feel the game as it is, not as logs or whatever people say it is. So yes, as long as they do not cheat or influence the game in magical ways with the knowledge about the fact that there is no spoon, they should be allowed to play the game. ANONYMOUSLY TOO. (now me waits for the precious things the GM promised on return for this "pro" post) lol :P very amusing but pls post only with the main... yer the problem is that they could not handle this and now all trust is broken between ccp and the gamers, which means that something have to be done where they REALLY shows that they will do anything to make sure that this can and will not happend again ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Thaelan Deviance Inc	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:54:00 - [40] yes they should be allowed to play as normal characters, they'll do a better job at fixing things if they know the problems as other players do... should they have access to anything more than normal playerswhen playing as normal players? no, of course not, and that seems to be where the problem may be atm. ccp need to better moniter what their dev accounts do; when, where, how, whatever it is that is being done on them
Ira Theos	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:55:00 - [41] Originally by: Sathamarid No GMs in non-NPC corps. Or put em all in the same corp. Having a dev with dev roles and rights in any player owned corp is a terrible idea -- conflict of interest. QFT
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:58:00 - [42] throws in 2 cents Well, they can play the game...... heck, i encouraged them to know their game.... but THEY SHOULDNT BE ALLOWED to do special favors for friends just cause of it. keep work life and gaming life SEPERATE... yes, a certain alliance can be friends with the Devs/staff... is okay to do that.. is NOT okay however, that a certain alliance can tell their dev /staff friend buddies to perform in game actions... they SHOULD require to go though the petition systems. but yeah, any change right now is pointless... the way the T20 incident is handled badly damaged the trust, and now.. these allergations. there is very little CCP can do to gain the trust back... unless CCP brings out the big stick on those on its staff that abused their power... but CCP doesnt do that, as seen in the last incident.. is too late now... (heck, when the info is leaked to many other sites.. even new players will find out..) but hey, doesnt mean you still cant have fun as an empire pvers.... we/those guys couldnt care less... -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 20:58:00 - [43] i am still looking forwood to those dev/gm replay's of Why it's a good thing and why it's a bad thing ... looking instenst at the screen ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:02:00 - [44] Originally by: CrestoftheStars i am still looking forwood to those dev/gm replay's of Why it's a good thing and why it's a bad thing ... looking instenst at the screen you will feel like a kid finding out that there is no Santa Claus soon enough.. is highly unlikely they will respond to this question.. is abit touchy... -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Lab Technician071548 Astro-Support Services	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:04:00 - [45] I would like to be certain that CCPs system had very strong monitoring tools and policies in place creating a bright line that staff and volunteers may not cross. One without the other (tools to enforce and policy, respectively), is a fig leaf to cover a culture of permissiveness. I doubt we will have insight into whether or not these things are in place and, if so, if they are adequate. For myself, I continue on in good faith that ass hattery will not be tolerated by CCP and that appropriate steps will be taken when and if misconduct has been found to have taken place. Those who already believe that CCPs internal affairs operations are just a bunch of BoD slaves will never be happy playing Eve again unless you can get over that mentality.
Sanctus Maleficus Oberon Incorporated Oberon Imperial Governance	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:04:00 - [46] I think saying that developers (or other CCP employees) should not be able to play is absurd. Not only do they love the game as we players do, but they love the game from a creation standpoint. Lets use sports cars as an analogy. Its one thing to buy a sweet sports car, and drive it every day. Its another thing to build your own car from scratch. You can apply this logic to many other areas of life. Also, you all should be careful about generalizing all "devs" as evil cheaters. You know its been one or two bad apples.
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:05:00 - [47] Originally by: Sanctus Maleficus Also, you all should be careful about generalizing all "devs" as evil cheaters. You know its been one or two bad apples. Dingdingdingdingding, we have a winner! (In other words, I agree.) ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:08:00 - [48] Originally by: The Pointless Originally by: Sanctus Maleficus Also, you all should be careful about generalizing all "devs" as evil cheaters. You know its been one or two bad apples. Dingdingdingdingding, we have a winner! (In other words, I agree.) yeah, but it just take one bite into the rotten apple to make you think twice about the rest! lol -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Sha Dar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:09:00 - [49] Yes, their should be Devs and GM's playing in the game. Perhaps any actions related to those specific accounts, the ones with higher level access and powers, should be automatically logged to a ccp server dedicated to that purpose... logging higher level actions. A "Master" log of that type Should sort out any number of potential problems in the future. I can't imagine it would be that difficult to have the related client (gm/isd/dev versions) to auto log elsewhere rather than on the respective pc. -
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:14:00 - [50] Originally by: Petrothian Tong Originally by: CrestoftheStars i am still looking forwood to those dev/gm replay's of Why it's a good thing and why it's a bad thing ... looking instenst at the screen you will feel like a kid finding out that there is no Santa Claus soon enough.. is highly unlikely they will respond to this question.. is abit touchy... well if they don't reply at all it's like saying "well yer your totally right and we have nothing that can convince you otherwise so we will just hide in the cornor untill we can lock and remove the tread without to many noticing it, as we do with any other that quitions our morale etc" ;P but yer i will feel like a sad child ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:20:00 - [51] Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: Petrothian Tong Originally by: CrestoftheStars i am still looking forwood to those dev/gm replay's of Why it's a good thing and why it's a bad thing ... looking instenst at the screen you will feel like a kid finding out that there is no Santa Claus soon enough.. is highly unlikely they will respond to this question.. is abit touchy... well if they don't reply at all it's like saying "well yer your totally right and we have nothing that can convince you otherwise so we will just hide in the cornor untill we can lock and remove the tread without to many noticing it, as we do with any other that quitions our morale etc" ;P but yer i will feel like a sad child pets Crest's back there there, heres a banana. and candied apple. and I will tell you about the Easter Bunny later. -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:23:00 - [52] Originally by: The Pointless Originally by: Sanctus Maleficus Also, you all should be careful about generalizing all "devs" as evil cheaters. You know its been one or two bad apples. Dingdingdingdingding, we have a winner! (In other words, I agree.) comparing to sports cars and saying that you shouldn't generalise.. is this really your attribute to the post? for once i am NOT saying the dev's are ****ups that don't know what they are doing or in anyway slamming on the devs or gms. i think they are doing a really good job WHEN they are doing their job. i am saying they shouldn't be allowed to involve themselves personally in a corp/alliance since this will be a problem with what they should do on there job. this is the problem. if they love it from a creater point then be the creaters and stop giving people the chance to seriusly hurt your work. one time can be unlucky or dump. to times is just stupid and without thought. but if there comes a third, this means that you clearly don't care about the misuse and your not going to do anything at all... the trust people have in ccp right now is exstemely low over the way they handled the situation and that this can even happend. that they arn't going to take drastic mathoeds to make sure it never happends again, well.. most people do not have the slightest trust in them, and most people don't even care trying to fight BoB because we are sure that they will cheat again.. as i pointed. 1 time, stupid. 2 times, unresponsible and repeatedly stupid. 3 times, no thought or morale and will without doubt be done again, because of the fact that there is no consequence and they have gotten the tasted for it.. a succes will always repeat itselve ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Mal Renolds Caldari Team America World Cops	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:32:00 - [53] Edited by: Mal Renolds on 27/05/2007 21:31:40 The Game developers and isd have abused there rights so many times its very tempting to say put them all on the test server only as players . The crap that has been pulled by Devs and isd folk has to end . This recent crap stirred up by goonfleet or the crap with Bob isnt good for the game period And seeing as Devs and isd folk cant help but cheat and favor the alliance they are in as its human nature I dont think goonfleet is whining about how unfair it is , they just want us on there side They are ****ed no developer is cheating for them IMO
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:34:00 - [54] Devs/GMs who play the game have regular accounts, you cannot control whether or not they play the game and don't expect to. Their "dev accounts" exist only to resolve bugs/issues in game, they need these accounts to improve the game. The two types of accounts are independant of each other. Most of the issues raised have had no actual effect on game events. And to the one who said "if a dev/gm wants to play the game, they should find another job". If you don't like devs playing the game, find another game, as it doesn't bother me.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:34:00 - [55] I'm all for Dev players. Hell, in SWG we begged them to play it to understand our grievances from our perspective. Not that it did a lot, but then, this was SOE. One thing the Devs who did play did was guard their identities in game religiously. None were in player associations, none were involved in server politics (that were ever discovered). They played the game strictly in an unofficial capacity and in the shadow of server politics. Very few of us even knew what servers any of them played on. It only really came to light at first because a Dev actually asked for help with on the forums under their "red name" official account rather than their player account (he was in the art department, not a programmer). That's the kind of thing I'm cool with. They're in the trenches, no admin tools, no GM support, playing like the rest of us. When you get Devs with admin tools tinkering because they're up to their eyeballs in server politics and have a stake in it, its an automatic conflict of interest. If its a GM or whatever your ingame operational staff starts getting into it, you've got REAL problems, because that's going beyond any conceivable edge because of intimate knowledge of any mechanics, but now you're seriously tilting the balance. That will kill even the best of games. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:35:00 - [56] I think you need to read Sanctus' post AGAIN. One or two bad apples does not mean that the whole company is likely or will commit any wrongdoing for definite. And I will repeat this again: The current allegations have not been proven, admitted, or fully investigated. So don't speak of that as a "2nd time" as it were deffo true, because nobody knows the facts. ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Neves Cibek Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:37:00 - [57] Originally by: Bullitnutz Sure, goonswarm blah blah blah, there's a reason we don't ALLOW anyone other than a regular player with no special ties to CCP in our alliance. That reason is legitimacy. How do you know there are no such players in your alliance/corp? They aren't exactly going to tell you in a recruitment interview :) The Devs play this game like normal folk, and I reckon thats what makes this game so good - and it is good. They've already stated somewhere - I remember reading it - that they only play Eve on their personal accounts in their spare time - they spend the hours they are employed working as Devs and then clock off work and play as their other characters. I don't see what the problem is with that - you as the OP are saying that we are paying them to develop the game - and during the hours that 'we' pay them to work, that is what they are doing. If they just sat back and didn't interact with us lowly serfs, how would they get an idea as to what everyone really thinks, how people play, and what they like and don't like and how to improve the game. Sure people post all over the forums, but the best way to see anything for yourself is to actually do it yourself, and that is what these guys (and gals) are doing, and I respect them for that, because I sure as heck know that I'm not able to do their job.
Gil Panzar	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:45:00 - [58] No staff of CCP should involve themselves in the live game. Float around invisible. Make an independent newb pilot. Play test server. Check statistics. Ask questions on test forums. Stay out of the live game. The staff has caused more problems than solved while they're involved with in-game corporations. In fact, if you make an internal affairs department, make solid framework for conduct. Has any policy or framework been communicated?
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:46:00 - [59] Originally by: CrestoftheStars [ when you pay for a product you are right to say "i do not which that you do something that will advantually lead to a misuse. as i have pointed out (and this is how they actually do it in most mmo's) i am not saying that they shouldn't play the game, but that they should NOT be in it as a player, but only as a dev or gm as we are paying them and exspecting them to do. i think you misunderstand what you pay for. You pay for the privilege to play the game, no rights can be claimed as laid out by the EULA and law in most western countries. The only right you have is to stop paying for the game. Now, i do understand your pov, but please understand that it's never going to change, devs are going to keep playing this game (and imho that's a good thing). They are what's driving this game, they know what makes us drool, because it makes them drool too. I know what your driving at, playing as devs instead as players sounds great in theory, but is rather difficult in practice. They already have a changed perspective, they already play the game from the pov of a dev. But understand that when you work on such a project for X40 hours a week on such a project, chances are that you going to have your good and bad days, strong and weak days. Now that there's a IA division at CCP there is all the more reason not to do anything that's going to come back and bite you in the ass, it's just that little bit of extra reinforcement that doesn't make devs stray from their role. Now you can claim that the IA division is nothing but a joke, but if that's the case, why would you ever believe claims made by CCP that "From now on devs will never be able to play Eve again."? A lot of folks don't trust CCP. That's their right, but why they keep playing this game is beyond me... In short, why not believe in CCP and the folks that work there to make the best of the situation, it's not as if we can set their policy... ps. It's also not smart to *** of the 'Gods' by holding a petition so that they would have to stop playing the game they love...
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:47:00 - [60] Devs should be allowed to play the game, there should just be limits on who/where/how they are distributed. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Thargat Caldari S-44 Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.05.27 21:54:00 - [61] Devs should be allowed to play, anything else is just crazy. About GM/DEV powers on chars. A different story, though I have to say I don't care much. Even if a GM or Dev does something "wrong" it still won't affect me or my corp as much as a decision from Seleene, SirMolle, TheMittani or any other alliance leader of the big alliances. If GS, RA, MC or BoB decided to "act" against my corp they'd prolly rip us a new "jumpgate" (so to speak). Even a concious "wrong step" from a GM or DEV has less impact on the game than most decisions from the big alliance leaders. This however does not mean there should be no control or investigation of GM/DEV chars, "trust is good but control is better". I just think that the debate has gone way off track. People should be more interested in bug-reporting programs and helping CCP develope a better game (via the means already in place) than DEV/GM actions. If you don't like what I say, just ignore it, or admit I got to you.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:01:00 - [62] This vote is pointless - BoB and pets will vote YES, their enemies will vote NO... Draw your own conclusions.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:02:00 - [63] Originally by: Pan Crastus This vote is pointless - BoB and pets will vote YES, their enemies will vote NO... Draw your own conclusions. yeah, because devs/gms are only in one alliance in the entire of eve 8-). They are in different corps/alliances, but some people are on a witch hunt to try to prove bob keep cheating to cover up their own incompetences in game.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:02:00 - [64] actually what we pay for is the service. since i can hear your not much into law i can tell you that even taking money for the game and then the service is walking on a very thin line of what is legal in most country. the problem with the law is that it is differend from country to country and that is why online games are so hard to see what is legally done and not. even so i will NOT begin to have a discoussion about the law involving in this (since it is not the topic).. back on topic. devs, gm and isd ingame = mistrust, misuse = mistrust to the company ccp. i know (or i would suspect) that most dev/gm/isd is just thinking "shoot those idiots cheating" because this actually have a very negative impact on them, and they are good guy's but non the less, the trust have been broken and how we regain that trust is the importence. first i would say either remove all accounts that are dev/gm or isd or spread them out to non importent corps/alliance, and make sure to fire any one that do anything out of order and thereby misusing there powers.. hehe i know it's a VERY bad thing to ** of the GODS... but some one have to do it before a bunch of angry people comes and trow them from the land (so to speak). but it is not anything i actually fancy or like to do... exspecially since "next time i need something reimbursed" i will just hope that they are not holding a crunsh against me ;P (ofcourse they will not, although the thought is there because of incidents like these that shows they are just as stupid as us and do what is best for theirs) Originally by:** Cergorach Originally by: CrestoftheStars [ when you pay for a product you are right to say "i do not which that you do something that will advantually lead to a misuse. as i have pointed out (and this is how they actually do it in most mmo's) i am not saying that they shouldn't play the game, but that they should NOT be in it as a player, but only as a dev or gm as we are paying them and exspecting them to do. i think you misunderstand what you pay for. You pay for the privilege to play the game, no rights can be claimed as laid out by the EULA and law in most western countries. The only right you have is to stop paying for the game. Now, i do understand your pov, but please understand that it's never going to change, devs are going to keep playing this game (and imho that's a good thing). They are what's driving this game, they know what makes us drool, because it makes them drool too. I know what your driving at, playing as devs instead as players sounds great in theory, but is rather difficult in practice. They already have a changed perspective, they already play the game from the pov of a dev. But understand that when you work on such a project for X40 hours a week on such a project, chances are that you going to have your good and bad days, strong and weak days. Now that there's a IA division at CCP there is all the more reason not to do anything that's going to come back and bite you in the ass, it's just that little bit of extra reinforcement that doesn't make devs stray from their role. Now you can claim that the IA division is nothing but a joke, but if that's the case, why would you ever believe claims made by CCP that "From now on devs will never be able to play Eve again."? A lot of folks don't trust CCP. That's their right, but why they keep playing this game is beyond me... In short, why not believe in CCP and the folks that work there to make the best of the situation, it's not as if we can set their policy... ps. It's also not smart to *** of the 'Gods' by holding a petition so that they would have to stop playing the game they love... ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:03:00 - [65] Originally by: Krugerrand They are in different corps/alliances, but some people are on a witch hunt to try to prove bob keep cheating to cover up their own incompetences in game. Oh really, tell me more. Oh, it's just hearsay and CCP PR you are repeating, I guess.
Fedacorr Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:04:00 - [66] Edited by: Fedacorr on 27/05/2007 22:04:29 Devs absolutely should be able and encouraged to 'play the game'. Devs should absolutely never be allowed to have those player characters be in any player corp or alliance. Not ever. If they need to understand corp play, let the dev characters form their own corp together. Illicit contact: The rule should be that any out of game contact with a dev other than on this message board, in the open, or in a known, announced way (such as dev chats) should be very firmly discouraged, and that 'instant message' type contacts regarding anything occuring in game should be utterly prohibited, with discovery of such communications a firing offence. This means any such IM should be responded to with 'Do not send such messages, any further such message will result in banning of your character, you must use the petition system to request assistance or help in game'. In game contact with a dev via the regular in game channels other than petitions and responses to them which involves any request to assist with in game problems should receive the same 'Discontinue this or be banned' response.
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:04:00 - [67] Originally by: Pan Crastus This vote is pointless - BoB and pets will vote YES, their enemies will vote NO... Draw your own conclusions. Seeing as i'm neither BoB nor anybodies pet i find statements like this annoying and down right untrue, common sense is what affected my choice and intial post and has nothing to do with being either a BoB alt a dev in disguise or a CCP fanboi so please stop talking about us like we are. ---------
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:05:00 - [68] Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: Pan Crastus This vote is pointless - BoB and pets will vote YES, their enemies will vote NO... Draw your own conclusions. Seeing as i'm neither BoB nor anybodies pet i find statements like this annoying and down right untrue, Sorry, I forgot to mention BoB and pets' alts.
Dungheap Caldari Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:06:00 - [69] Originally by: Rod Blaine Originally by: Sathamarid No GMs in non-NPC corps. Or put em all in the same corp. Having a dev with dev roles and rights in any player owned corp is a terrible idea -- conflict of interest. There are no devs with dev rights or GM's with GM rights in player corps. There are just regular characters with no additional powers in player corps. and you know this -how- ? if there's a ccp company policy about it feel free to link, post, or.. make it up. like the stats in your previous post...
Dungheap Caldari Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:06:00 - [70] Originally by: Rod Blaine Originally by: Sathamarid No GMs in non-NPC corps. Or put em all in the same corp. Having a dev with dev roles and rights in any player owned corp is a terrible idea -- conflict of interest. There are no devs with dev rights or GM's with GM rights in player corps. There are just regular characters with no additional powers in player corps. and you know this -how- ? if there's a ccp company policy about it feel free to link, post, or.. make it up. like the stats in your previous post...
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:08:00 - [71] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: Pan Crastus This vote is pointless - BoB and pets will vote YES, their enemies will vote NO... Draw your own conclusions. Seeing as i'm neither BoB nor anybodies pet i find statements like this annoying and down right untrue, Sorry, I forgot to mention BoB and pets' alts. Again i am nobodies alt or ***** or slave or any such thing and i would kindly appreciate you didn't generalise players based on that. ---------
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:08:00 - [72] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: Pan Crastus This vote is pointless - BoB and pets will vote YES, their enemies will vote NO... Draw your own conclusions. Seeing as i'm neither BoB nor anybodies pet i find statements like this annoying and down right untrue, Sorry, I forgot to mention BoB and pets' alts. The irony is that LR has always been against BoB. But apart from that, I applaud your ingenuity and the witty yet efficient formulation of your post. Truly, sir, you are a genius, nay, a DEITY in mortal guise. Please, accept my fealty to you so that I may be tutored in the ways of your incredible wit. ----------------------
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:08:00 - [73] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: Pan Crastus This vote is pointless - BoB and pets will vote YES, their enemies will vote NO... Draw your own conclusions. Seeing as i'm neither BoB nor anybodies pet i find statements like this annoying and down right untrue, Sorry, I forgot to mention BoB and pets' alts. Again i am nobodies alt or ***** or slave or any such thing and i would kindly appreciate you didn't generalise players based on that. ---------
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:08:00 - [74] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: Pan Crastus This vote is pointless - BoB and pets will vote YES, their enemies will vote NO... Draw your own conclusions. Seeing as i'm neither BoB nor anybodies pet i find statements like this annoying and down right untrue, Sorry, I forgot to mention BoB and pets' alts. The irony is that LR has always been against BoB. But apart from that, I applaud your ingenuity and the witty yet efficient formulation of your post. Truly, sir, you are a genius, nay, a DEITY in mortal guise. Please, accept my fealty to you so that I may be tutored in the ways of your incredible wit. ----------------------
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:09:00 - [75] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: Pan Crastus This vote is pointless - BoB and pets will vote YES, their enemies will vote NO... Draw your own conclusions. Seeing as i'm neither BoB nor anybodies pet i find statements like this annoying and down right untrue, Sorry, I forgot to mention BoB and pets' alts. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaa cough splutter Give it a rest, will ya? Just because peeps are of the opinion that the Devs should be allows to play doesn't mean they're BoB or BoB's pets. As I have said, I have never had any proper contact with anyone from BoB, ingame or out, excluding any forum posts here. ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:09:00 - [76] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: Pan Crastus This vote is pointless - BoB and pets will vote YES, their enemies will vote NO... Draw your own conclusions. Seeing as i'm neither BoB nor anybodies pet i find statements like this annoying and down right untrue, Sorry, I forgot to mention BoB and pets' alts. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaa cough splutter Give it a rest, will ya? Just because peeps are of the opinion that the Devs should be allows to play doesn't mean they're BoB or BoB's pets. As I have said, I have never had any proper contact with anyone from BoB, ingame or out, excluding any forum posts here. ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:10:00 - [77] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Krugerrand They are in different corps/alliances, but some people are on a witch hunt to try to prove bob keep cheating to cover up their own incompetences in game. Oh really, tell me more. Oh, it's just hearsay and CCP PR you are repeating, I guess. Common sense dictates this, if you want to be blinded for your hate towards BoB then so be it. If you think its affecting the game so much, quit. GMs/devs are not meant to reveal their ingame chars.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:10:00 - [78] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Krugerrand They are in different corps/alliances, but some people are on a witch hunt to try to prove bob keep cheating to cover up their own incompetences in game. Oh really, tell me more. Oh, it's just hearsay and CCP PR you are repeating, I guess. Common sense dictates this, if you want to be blinded for your hate towards BoB then so be it. If you think its affecting the game so much, quit. GMs/devs are not meant to reveal their ingame chars.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:11:00 - [79] Originally by: The Pointless Just because peeps are of the opinion that the Devs should be allows to play doesn't mean they're BoB or BoB's pets. Yes, they might just as well be downright ignorant or stupid, but I didn't want to accuse anyone like that before they proved themselves in here. :-/
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:11:00 - [80] Originally by: The Pointless Just because peeps are of the opinion that the Devs should be allows to play doesn't mean they're BoB or BoB's pets. Yes, they might just as well be downright ignorant or stupid, but I didn't want to accuse anyone like that before they proved themselves in here. :-/
Stakhanov kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:13:00 - [81] Edited by: Stakhanov on 27/05/2007 22:13:39 Have fun deluding yourself into thinking you'll have an impact on what the devs and GMs are allowed to do Seriously , it's their game. They can do what the hell they want with it , regardless of the community's opinion. Saying they should be prevented from harming their own game is absolute nonsense and an insult to their intelligence. Improving the game is a favor , letting players take part in it is a privilege. If they think a group of players is trying to ruin their game , blocking or banning them is self-defense. It's not like they are democratically elected to be in charge. They have invited you to their game , if you're not happy you can leave - that's the only right you have.
Stakhanov kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:13:00 - [82] Edited by: Stakhanov on 27/05/2007 22:13:39 Have fun deluding yourself into thinking you'll have an impact on what the devs and GMs are allowed to do Seriously , it's their game. They can do what the hell they want with it , regardless of the community's opinion. Saying they should be prevented from harming their own game is absolute nonsense and an insult to their intelligence. Improving the game is a favor , letting players take part in it is a privilege. If they think a group of players is trying to ruin their game , blocking or banning them is self-defense. It's not like they are democratically elected to be in charge. They have invited you to their game , if you're not happy you can leave - that's the only right you have.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:14:00 - [83] Originally by: Krugerrand Common sense dictates this, ROFL ... common sense dictates that just as much as it would dictate BoB having at least 1 member of the CIA, FBI, Opus Dei and the Mafia in it. Well who knows. ;-) Quote: If you think its affecting the game so much, quit. It's just one of many good reasons to quit the game right now.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:14:00 - [84] Originally by: Krugerrand Common sense dictates this, ROFL ... common sense dictates that just as much as it would dictate BoB having at least 1 member of the CIA, FBI, Opus Dei and the Mafia in it. Well who knows. ;-) Quote: If you think its affecting the game so much, quit. It's just one of many good reasons to quit the game right now.
Thargat Caldari S-44 Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:15:00 - [85] Originally by: CrestoftheStars back on topic. devs, gm and isd ingame = mistrust, misuse = mistrust to the company ccp. i know (or i would suspect) that most dev/gm/isd is just thinking "shoot those idiots cheating" because this actually have a very negative impact on them, and they are good guy's but non the less, the trust have been broken and how we regain that trust is the importence. Speak for yourself and only yourself (unless you have a written permission from each and every user on this forum). I still trust CCP and the DEVs/GMs. It takes alot more than some unidentified characters posts to make me jump to conclusions (speaking of different slandering posts regarding CCP misconduct in other threads on this forum) about a well renowned gamingcompany. If you don't like what I say, just ignore it, or admit I got to you.
Gabba The Three Hundred	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:15:00 - [86] Anyone remember Earth & Beyond? Same thing happened there, ill admit EVE is a better game, but thats only till something else comes along.
Thargat Caldari S-44 Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:15:00 - [87] Originally by: CrestoftheStars back on topic. devs, gm and isd ingame = mistrust, misuse = mistrust to the company ccp. i know (or i would suspect) that most dev/gm/isd is just thinking "shoot those idiots cheating" because this actually have a very negative impact on them, and they are good guy's but non the less, the trust have been broken and how we regain that trust is the importence. Speak for yourself and only yourself (unless you have a written permission from each and every user on this forum). I still trust CCP and the DEVs/GMs. It takes alot more than some unidentified characters posts to make me jump to conclusions (speaking of different slandering posts regarding CCP misconduct in other threads on this forum) about a well renowned gamingcompany. If you don't like what I say, just ignore it, or admit I got to you.
Gabba The Three Hundred	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:15:00 - [88] Anyone remember Earth & Beyond? Same thing happened there, ill admit EVE is a better game, but thats only till something else comes along.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:16:00 - [89] Originally by: Stakhanov They have invited you to their game , if you're not happy you can leave - that's the only right you have. That would be the case if the game was free, but it isn't. CCP is bound by a contract and there are limits to the amount of misleading statements and advertising they can do.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:16:00 - [90] Originally by: Stakhanov They have invited you to their game , if you're not happy you can leave - that's the only right you have. That would be the case if the game was free, but it isn't. CCP is bound by a contract and there are limits to the amount of misleading statements and advertising they can do.
Victor Ivanov Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:16:00 - [91] Edited by: Victor Ivanov on 27/05/2007 22:20:55 Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Krugerrand Common sense dictates this, ROFL ... common sense dictates that just as much as it would dictate BoB having at least 1 member of the CIA, FBI, Opus Dei and the Mafia in it. Well who knows. ;-) Quote: If you think its affecting the game so much, quit. Do it, instead of posting with an unidentified alt and whining. Oh wait, I was being sarcastic tonight as opposed to colloquially crude. ----------------------
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:18:00 - [92] What misleading statements have they placed. Cyber law at best is a tricky area.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:21:00 - [93] Originally by: Krugerrand What misleading statements have they placed. - that they have a strict policy about devs and gms not abusing their power and that they're enforcing it (they didn't with T20) - that people are banned for posting personal info, they didn't with Sir Molle when he posted about K********* also the advertising about fleet battles with 1000 ships etc., but you know that yourself, even 0utbreak have been complaining about lag in 20x20 battles. :-/
Arushia Nova Labs Empire Research	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:23:00 - [94] Disclaimer first: I am an indie MMO dev. I am disgusted by BoB's corruption, and I'm definitely not a BoB puppet. If the devs don't play their own game they'll become out of touch, and the game will probably get stale and stagnant. So yes, devs should be allowed on TQ. They should perhaps be forced to change corps/alliances every 3 months, to prevent any dev from getting too attached to any in-game faction. Tired of Waiting? Use Empire Research
Thargat Caldari S-44 Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:24:00 - [95] Originally by: Pan Crastus That would be the case if the game was free, but it isn't. CCP is bound by a contract and there are limits to the amount of misleading statements and advertising they can do. We pay them to get access to their servers to play their game wich they have built through hard work and plenty of investment. I pay to watch TV, and as long as there's a picture and sound I get what I paid for. If I don't like the shows or programming I can put my money elswhere. That's one of the good things with capitalistic-market-economy. The only obligation that CCP has (legally) is towards their shareholders and employees. The fact that they allow us "customers" to influence the service is a pure bonus. If you don't like what I say, just ignore it, or admit I got to you.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:29:00 - [96] Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 27/05/2007 22:30:11 maybe its bould to say, but i do not believe bob would still be there and this strong if not for the help of emm lets just call them otherss this is simple from the fact of the time they spend in one long war jumping from one oppenent to the next, while they where fighting the whole time the others where shifting, this giving them time to rebuilt there forces.. so it have a impact. and even if it don't have a impact on me right now, i will not just look away seeing "ow well something bad is happening BUT not to me so i don't give a **..." what kind of twisted life attitude is that ?! Originally by:** Thargat Devs should be allowed to play, anything else is just crazy. About GM/DEV powers on chars. A different story, though I have to say I don't care much. Even if a GM or Dev does something "wrong" it still won't affect me or my corp as much as a decision from Seleene, SirMolle, TheMittani or any other alliance leader of the big alliances. If GS, RA, MC or BoB decided to "act" against my corp they'd prolly rip us a new "jumpgate" (so to speak). Even a concious "wrong step" from a GM or DEV has less impact on the game than most decisions from the big alliance leaders. This however does not mean there should be no control or investigation of GM/DEV chars, "trust is good but control is better". I just think that the debate has gone way off track. People should be more interested in bug-reporting programs and helping CCP develope a better game (via the means already in place) than DEV/GM actions. doesn't matter much, niether am i and i do not intent in going into anything there have anything to do with any of these before the dev/gm/isd problem have been fixed permanently, since "its simply not worth it". Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: Pan Crastus This vote is pointless - BoB and pets will vote YES, their enemies will vote NO... Draw your own conclusions. Seeing as i'm neither BoB nor anybodies pet i find statements like this annoying and down right untrue, common sense is what affected my choice and intial post and has nothing to do with being either a BoB alt a dev in disguise or a CCP fanboi so please stop talking about us like we are. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:29:00 - [97] Edited by: Plutoinum on 27/05/2007 22:29:16 They should be allowed to play, but shouldn't mix their player life with their gm/isd life. When they are online with their player char, they should behave like normal players in their corp, not like the dev-friend, who gives out the top-secret infos or the ISD friend, who accepts personal support requests from his mates and logs to his GM char on demand to solve problems for his mates/corp/alliance immediately. There is a reason, why employees/GMs etc. in most games have to sign a NDA and that the identity/player chars of GMs are to be kept secret. You are usually not allowed to tell your corp mates, that you are GM and who your GM char is. Maybe employees should sign stricter rules, how they have are allowed to interact with the community, what they can do and what not and could be held liable for any financial losses that are a direct consequence from breaking these rules. (Hope that's proper English.) Finally it's about CCPs money, if they choose a lax approach and don't mind to risk one or the other 'incident', it's their money. Don't need to be a prophet that those 'incidents' cost them money.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:30:00 - [98] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Krugerrand What misleading statements have they placed. - that they have a strict policy about devs and gms not abusing their power and that they're enforcing it (they didn't with T20) - that people are banned for posting personal info, they didn't with Sir Molle when he posted about K********* also the advertising about fleet battles with 1000 ships etc., but you know that yourself, even 0utbreak have been complaining about lag in 20x20 battles. :-/ Those are not a breach of contract though, furthermore since CCP includes an exsclusion clause that service cannot be guaranteed and they reserve the right to remove it at their discression.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:41:00 - [99] Originally by: Krugerrand Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Krugerrand What misleading statements have they placed. - that they have a strict policy about devs and gms not abusing their power and that they're enforcing it (they didn't with T20) - that people are banned for posting personal info, they didn't with Sir Molle when he posted about K********* also the advertising about fleet battles with 1000 ships etc., but you know that yourself, even 0utbreak have been complaining about lag in 20x20 battles. :-/ Those are not a breach of contract though, furthermore since CCP includes an exsclusion clause that service cannot be guaranteed and they reserve the right to remove it at their discression. law again?! sigh... they can't.. they can't by law say (in short) "we are not responsible for the service you rescieve and we have the right to not preform that service if we like". but pls don't descuss law here ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:41:00 - [100] Of course devs should be allowed to play the game, and I never want to play any MMO where the devs don't. The lack of passion for their own game and little time spent playing it = lack of understanding of game issues. Moreover, it's passion for the game that will encourage the devs to put forth their best efforts in improving/balancing it. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:44:00 - [101] Originally by: Krugerrand This isn't unfair competition. That's for a judge to say and not for a random BoB sympathisant. Quote: The T20 incident was handled with, the recent allegations are still under investigation and have little impact on the game (some of which were not even linked to bob). Why are you so determined to find something wrong? I am not determined to find anything, I'm enjoying the show as CCP dismantles its credibility and ultimately itself. I run a business myself and can learn how not to handle things ...
n0thing Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:46:00 - [102] Edited by: n0thing on 27/05/2007 22:45:46 Originally by: CrestoftheStars stuff Ok, well lets do a small break down: - No official facts are known of any violation, really. I have never seen screens of the recent matter, never seen anything apart from both sides explanations. So, well, I think that nor me nor others can judge whos right and whos wrong, leave it for those whos job it is. - To reproduce certain things you need the whole player-base influence in some cases. EVE live server has alot of stuff that was established with years and its very hard to recreate for example player market fluctations or player corporation changes and their adaptation to them. You cant go ask every single player in local how he adapts to new changes, mass surveys also dont work as well as you on your own seen it from inside. - To prevent you from saying that I am friend of certain alliance that was referred to as biggest, no, last I checked they show with a big red minus, like most of alliances, heh. - Another reason that has a decent right to live, is that why some people cant relax in their maybe also fav game after work that they done over at the office? I myself if Id be one of those people would really like to still be able to play it. Honestly, game gives a great feeling, so taking it away can as well harm motivation. Profit isnt everything you know. - Now, if we think globally, favors is a very thin thing, Im not going like I stated above to judge anyone, so I will talk about such thing in general. They are always done in one way or another. Same way as you lend your spare keyboard to your friend, same way as when you sell something, anywhere, you might lower price for someone you know. Yep, thats right, original human nature, you might let yourself to do a small favor to someone you know. The point is, whats the red-line of it? That what needs to be set. Pure and simple, draw a line between one part of that game and another, while also, not taking up too much from either. If you want a general suggestion, make sure none of both part contact between them anywhere apart from game or fanfest ofc. - Last but not least, Im new pilot, yep, but yet I have been playing online for long time, and to my memory, I have never seen abuse of certain position within game to the extent where it would harm the game process on all levels. Really, you never see anyone cutting down a tree that your house hangs on. And this matter, situation...call it whatever you like, isnt any different. People who hold certain positions are not that much different from same people on same position in other game. tnx. edit: the above post, does not reflect from any specific matters, nor does point to any specific parties. ---
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:48:00 - [103] Edited by: Krugerrand on 27/05/2007 22:47:22 I always like how its "if you trust the devs/gms then you must be a bob alt/pet/fanboi". I shoot bob just like I shoot everyone else, unlike a lot of our enemies, bob actually put up a good fight, I may not like their attitude all the time but I respect them as a capable enemy. There are where they are today because they are good, not because of "cheating". EDIT: If you feel there is a legal case here then feel free to place a claim with the courts.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:51:00 - [104] Originally by: Krugerrand Edited by: Krugerrand on 27/05/2007 22:47:22 I always like how its "if you trust the devs/gms then you must be a bob alt/pet/fanboi". I shoot bob just like I shoot everyone else, unlike a lot of our enemies, bob actually put up a good fight, I may not like their attitude all the time but I respect them as a capable enemy. There are where they are today because they are good, not because of "cheating". You haven't shot at BoB in ages and you know it. You were snuggling up to MC and BoB to defend their capital shipyards and your killboard is surprisingly empty of BoB kills considering where you operate. So in your case it wasn't a generalization, it was a statement based on known facts. Now try harder to discredit me or perhaps stick to the topic.
Sha Dar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:53:00 - [105] Originally by: Pan Crastus This vote is pointless - BoB and pets will vote YES, their enemies will vote NO... Draw your own conclusions. Complete and utter drivel ! I despise BoB, but I still stick with my post earlier that the devs/gms/isd should play the game. -
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:55:00 - [106] Your the one going off topic discrediting those who disagree with the OP as BoB friendly. We were not trying to defend a BoB capyard, it was MC, if you remember BoB had us at neutral still and even shot us. Then we also killed their freighter in high sec. If they brought a gang to us tommorow we would fight them. But I suppose this would just be a "show" to confuse people We pick who we want to kill, not you. I've posted my views that GMs/Devs should play the game as it helps to improve the game. Also CCP will not stop this and if you quit the game over it then they will probably not care.
Thargat Caldari S-44 Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.05.27 22:56:00 - [107] Originally by: CrestoftheStars Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 27/05/2007 22:30:11 maybe its bould to say, but i do not believe bob would still be there and this strong if not for the help of emm lets just call them otherss this is simple from the fact of the time they spend in one long war jumping from one oppenent to the next, while they where fighting the whole time the others where shifting, this giving them time to rebuilt there forces.. so it have a impact. and even if it don't have a impact on me right now, i will not just look away seeing "ow well something bad is happening BUT not to me so i don't give a ***..." what kind of twisted life attitude is that ?! First I'd like to say well spoken/written. Alot of people are just flaming or posting nonsense. It's nice to read something intelligent for once. Now to the reply. =) I've never been a member of BoB or BoB friends so I don't know how they work internally. I have however fought them. And they are pretty damn good at what they do (with some small fraction of their success belonging to metagaming as people will call it). The amount of time they spend on the game and the number of skilled players they can draw into a fight is just amazing. They really do give some meaning to their name. They would prolly be exactly where they are now, with or without GM help. And regarding the second issue. Well it really isn't up to us players to solve it. CCP have built EvE and I'm quite sure they can handle their own company with equal success. Witchhunts and conspiracy theories on the forums is NOT the correct way to adress a problem, well written mails (with namelists) to CCP staff would be a much better solution to inform them that there is a problem (according to the ones who send the mail, they can not even begin to claim that they represent the entire community). If you don't like what I say, just ignore it, or admit I got to you.*
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.27 23:00:00 - [108] For such poll, I hope CCP would implement policy similar to some other MMORPGS: Devs/GMs may play, but not in any position of power. Kind of gives best of the both worlds: Devs get to play, but have less temptation to cheat (and far less ramifications when they do cheat). Originally by: Krugerrand T20 incident was handled I reckon mistrust in CCP taking the issue seriously is main reason for still getting threads like this. That is, some people do not like how it the thing was handled (ban the whistleblower, no consequences for involved parties). -Lasse
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.27 23:03:00 - [109] aye Heikki, I agree that it wasn't possibly handled the best way, but as was mentioned at the time, T20 had already been sanctioned and CCP tried to hide what had actually hapened. It would have been better had they come forward and I'm confident they will do in future, but they cannot punished twice for the same event, as I am sure he will have learnt from his mistakes.
Aurora Aujii Gallente Genesis of Cosmic Grace	Posted - 2007.05.27 23:17:00 - [110] Devs and GMs should not have player accounts, and they should never be involved with a player driven economy, political milieu and most definitely in any war where it may be construed that they favor one side over another. If you don't follow me... please, read some Greek Mythology... you'll get a sense of the tragic circumstance that usually befall the poor mortals (i.e. players) when the gods come out to play. Having said that, there is no reason Devs or GMs cannot participate in game testing... but only on the test server. No player account should ever have the keys to unlock the GM or Dev commands in-game, no exception. If you really insist on having live testing, then hire 'Game Testers' who use disposable player accounts, and focus on a game element or issue, rather than playing around with a 4-yearold character hidden deep inside some immensely powerful corporation. I honestly don't know what happened here, but since the release of Revelations, a lot of what was hidden in the gameÆs politics has become more and more transparent to us all - perhaps as a result of older players slowly losing interest or becoming disgruntled with the establishment. Regardless, if there is no accountability here within this game, no absolution between the parties involved, the basis for a truly wonderful game may forever be lost. To those gods, and immortals amongst us, remember this û *ôWhat we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortalö* Aurora
Saori Rei Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.05.27 23:23:00 - [111] It's a tricky situation. Devs, GMs, etc should be allowed to play. But at the same time it is necessary that ANY use of dev powers, dev account, etc is logged by the server. There needs to be a record every time GM commands and the like are used.
Mithrandir TFC Gallente Dirt Nap Squad FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.27 23:59:00 - [112] Where i work this is what we call a conflict of interest (are you more interested in being great and helping others on the side/stealing business away, or possible for money etc) So i cant do anything outside of our business. where i am its immediate grounds for termination written in contract. I would imagine a MMO would be the same. Why cant you test the game out on a dev account in lets say a corp only for devs, not in an alliance and non-affiltrated with any other corps... like it should be. If a person says somthings broken i dont see why you have to be in a .0 alliance to test it out.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 00:10:00 - [113] Originally by: n0thing Edited by: n0thing on 27/05/2007 22:45:46 Originally by: CrestoftheStars stuff Ok, well lets do a small break down: 1: no need for screenshots if it gets out like this have, use your logic, some people are still refusing that ****** killed a ton of people by the means of gas (there is a hell of alot thing to consider here, but the quition is really just how many he killed, not if he did it). so it have been done and the quition is just how many have done it and how much. 2: ow so you think by them beeing in BoB that primary exist in 0.0 they would get a bigger picture of what the okonomi is like then just having test charecters that is used on dayli basis to check test and make sure it is as it should be?! 3: i arn't saying that your a freind of bob, this have NOTHING to do with the subject, pull to head out of your behind and use some logic instead. 4: it's a job... and we as costumers deserve the right to say "please do your job as your suppose too" the problem is that they clearly can't handle the involvement (as any other human would have a hard time doing... if they lost that 5billion ship and one click would bring it back). they should be allowed to have that oppotunity. since it's a job, like beeing a polise man is (to take something that can be referred to), if a poliseman does something illegal his penalty is much harsher then if i did it, since it's a trust and responsibillity we give them. 5: yer correct a small favour THIS is why the people with godlike power shouldn't be allowed to get involved in the games political life. as you say its the human nature, so to stop it, you will have to be "Not human" or not be a part of it. so let them be what they are: dev/gm's and isd. not your freinds or follow comrades or follow players, they are the person that provides the service. 6: emm depends on who you are.. there are properly a few people that have quitted simply because they felt that it was cutting there legs of under them... gladly i am not one of those, but i would like to take a hold on the problem before it comes to that stage where you just "give up and leave". and i have seen a few games beeing badly hurt because of things like this.. ryl1 just to mention one, where the dev/gm's helping or ignoring the bad that one part does to benefith some one have hurt the game. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 00:14:00 - [114] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Krugerrand Edited by: Krugerrand on 27/05/2007 22:47:22 I always like how its "if you trust the devs/gms then you must be a bob alt/pet/fanboi". I shoot bob just like I shoot everyone else, unlike a lot of our enemies, bob actually put up a good fight, I may not like their attitude all the time but I respect them as a capable enemy. There are where they are today because they are good, not because of "cheating". You haven't shot at BoB in ages and you know it. You were snuggling up to MC and BoB to defend their capital shipyards and your killboard is surprisingly empty of BoB kills considering where you operate. So in your case it wasn't a generalization, it was a statement based on known facts. Now try harder to discredit me or perhaps stick to the topic. thank you.. was kind of thinking "shall i reply to this kind of idiocy or should i let it slip". but thanks for doing it for me;) although it have nothing to with "if your a bob lover or not", it have something to do with "humans can not ignore the once they feel for" and if the GODS are feeling for bob because they are a part of it, then they will advantually help them. that's why they should not get involved.. :) ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Mithrandir TFC Gallente Dirt Nap Squad FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 00:16:00 - [115] Edited by: Mithrandir TFC on 28/05/2007 00:15:48 Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: n0thing Edited by: n0thing on 27/05/2007 22:45:46 Originally by: CrestoftheStars stuff Ok, well lets do a small break down: 1: no need for screenshots if it gets out like this have, use your logic, some people are still refusing that **** killed a ton of people by the means of gas (there is a hell of alot thing to consider here, but the quition is really just how many he killed, not if he did it). so it have been done and the quition is just how many have done it and how much. 2: ow so you think by them beeing in BoB that primary exist in 0.0 they would get a bigger picture of what the okonomi is like then just having test charecters that is used on dayli basis to check test and make sure it is as it should be?! 3: i arn't saying that your a freind of bob, this have NOTHING to do with the subject, pull to head out of your behind and use some logic instead. 4: it's a job... and we as costumers deserve the right to say "please do your job as your suppose too" the problem is that they clearly can't handle the involvement (as any other human would have a hard time doing... if they lost that 5billion ship and one click would bring it back). they should be allowed to have that oppotunity. since it's a job, like beeing a polise man is (to take something that can be referred to), if a poliseman does something illegal his penalty is much harsher then if i did it, since it's a trust and responsibillity we give them. 5: yer correct a small favour THIS is why the people with godlike power shouldn't be allowed to get involved in the games political life. as you say its the human nature, so to stop it, you will have to be "Not human" or not be a part of it. so let them be what they are: dev/gm's and isd. not your freinds or follow comrades or follow players, they are the person that provides the service. 6: emm depends on who you are.. there are properly a few people that have quitted simply because they felt that it was cutting there legs of under them... gladly i am not one of those, but i would like to take a hold on the problem before it comes to that stage where you just "give up and leave". and i have seen a few games beeing badly hurt because of things like this.. ryl1 just to mention one, where the dev/gm's helping or ignoring the bad that one part does to benefith some one have hurt the game. Originally by:** Mithrandir TFC Where i work this is what we call a conflict of interest (are you more interested in being great and helping others on the side/stealing business away, or possible for money etc) So i cant do anything outside of our business. where i am its immediate grounds for termination written in contract. I would imagine a MMO would be the same. Why cant you test the game out on a dev account in lets say a corp only for devs, not in an alliance and non-affiltrated with any other corps... like it should be. If a person says somthings broken i dont see why you have to be in a .0 alliance to test it out. Just like i said, its conflict of interest and basically sums down to its unfair in the end to the businesses customers. Although mmo's seem to practice a little unethical business practices then 99% of "Unvirtual" businesses.
suza Prison Break Inc. FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.05.28 00:23:00 - [116] Eve is is a different situation to other games due to the single shard / single universe. In WOW for example you cannot play on the server that you are a GM on. Therefore you dont have access to development tools with you character. Also the sharding system means that if you get someone to spawn you something nice and shiney it has no impact upon other players. In eve that is not the case. Due to the singlen shards the system is open to abuses, but even a little tweeking can and has had large impacts upon the general player base. This is not the first time we have been here, such accusations were aimed at BIG by (ironically enough) BoB when they wanted Fountain Space. There have been other incidents involving other alliences / corps going back to when I first started playing eve. Solution, I have to admit to having none that would be satisfactory. A witch hunt would loose us our GM volunteers and loose us our game. A white wash would leave a situation festering and unresolved, which will also damage eve. All I xcan say is, thank god i'm not in CCP's shoes, for they truly are damned if they do and damned if they dont. - Fly Hard, Fly fast for tomorrow is another day for Killing!
Loyal Servant Caldari The Short Bus Squad The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2007.05.28 00:27:00 - [117] Should they be allowed? No. They should not be allowed. I don't think that the 'oh they need to play to see how things work' is a valid excuse for allowing it. TSBS - Eve's Premier podding service!
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 00:29:00 - [118] the subject is that it's bad for the game to have devs involved in the political aspect of the game with the will to where they want it to go... the point with a small fraction of there succes, have you ever hurt this: For want of a nail, the horseshoe was lost. For want of a horseshoe, the steed was lost. For want of a steed, the message was not delivered. For want of message, the war was lost.': yer i know its said in many way's, but this is the one i know can be said like this in english Originally by: Thargat Originally by: CrestoftheStars Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 27/05/2007 22:30:11 maybe its bould to say, but i do not believe bob would still be there and this strong if not for the help of emm lets just call them otherss this is simple from the fact of the time they spend in one long war jumping from one oppenent to the next, while they where fighting the whole time the others where shifting, this giving them time to rebuilt there forces.. so it have a impact. and even if it don't have a impact on me right now, i will not just look away seeing "ow well something bad is happening BUT not to me so i don't give a ****..." what kind of twisted life attitude is that ?! First I'd like to say well spoken/written. Alot of people are just flaming or posting nonsense. It's nice to read something intelligent for once. Now to the reply. =) I've never been a member of BoB or BoB friends so I don't know how they work internally. I have however fought them. And they are pretty damn good at what they do (with some small fraction of their success belonging to metagaming as people will call it). The amount of time they spend on the game and the number of skilled players they can draw into a fight is just amazing. They really do give some meaning to their name. They would prolly be exactly where they are now, with or without GM help. And regarding the second issue. Well it really isn't up to us players to solve it. CCP have built EvE and I'm quite sure they can handle their own company with equal success. Witchhunts and conspiracy theories on the forums is NOT the correct way to adress a problem, well written mails (with namelists) to CCP staff would be a much better solution to inform them that there is a problem (according to the ones who send the mail, they can not even begin to claim that they represent the entire community). ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.28 00:30:00 - [119] I have to ask myself a question here. If I had a ôI win and you die buttonö on my ships.. how long could I not use it? If I knew in implicit detail, the mechanics of every aspect of Eve, or had access to ôlook it upö, how long could I not use it? We all have friends in this game, and how long could you play with your friends knowing that you could benefit them in many ways? How long would you tolerate the situation, if your friends were having difficulty and not intervene? How long could you live with having ôgod modeö at your command and not use it? Now ask the question again.. Should devs play among the mortals?
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 00:34:00 - [120] Originally by: suza Eve is is a different situation to other games due to the single shard / single universe. In WOW for example you cannot play on the server that you are a GM on. Therefore you dont have access to development tools with you character. Also the sharding system means that if you get someone to spawn you something nice and shiney it has no impact upon other players. In eve that is not the case. Due to the singlen shards the system is open to abuses, but even a little tweeking can and has had large impacts upon the general player base. This is not the first time we have been here, such accusations were aimed at BIG by (ironically enough) BoB when they wanted Fountain Space. There have been other incidents involving other alliences / corps going back to when I first started playing eve. Solution, I have to admit to having none that would be satisfactory. A witch hunt would loose us our GM volunteers and loose us our game. A white wash would leave a situation festering and unresolved, which will also damage eve. All I xcan say is, thank god i'm not in CCP's shoes, for they truly are damned if they do and damned if they dont. do volentered gm's have acces to the full tool set O.o only thought they answered patitions and couldn't even reimburse people's ships?! ?? which in that chase would be no problem to let them stay then. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Aphotic Raven Gallente E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.05.28 00:41:00 - [121] No. I used to think it was necessary, but it causes too many problems. CCP Will not properly punish people and so abuses of power will only become more common. It is not just about bob, but its hard to find evidence of gms/devs in other alliances doing crap. BoB games the game, they are supposedly the masters of it... why dont their spys pull chunks of forums mentioning devs and cheating out to counter this? Or would that harm their "special" relationship too much. By far the worst thing I have seen since starting this game is people being banned for linking the open letter in game. Yes it is happening. No the devs wont confirm or deny it. Originally by: Dr Cupid Let me tell you all that I'm really enjoying eve-beta, and can't wait for the real game to come out!
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp	Posted - 2007.05.28 00:42:00 - [122] Edited by: Plutoinum on 28/05/2007 00:43:22 Originally by: n0thing Yep, thats right, original human nature, you might let yourself to do a small favor to someone you know. The point is, whats the red-line of it? That what needs to be set. Pure and simple, draw a line between one part of that game and another, while also, not taking up too much from either. If you want a general suggestion, make sure none of both part contact between them anywhere apart from game or fanfest ofc. I wouldn't do a favour, if I have given my word to my employer not to do so and it would bring him into trouble. Especially I wouldn't risk my job to give someone an advantage in an online game ! And if your friend understands your situation a bit, he doesn't bring you into trouble with such a request. So I'd just answer: No, can't do that. Sorry.' It's that simple. If he doesn't understand me and doesn't want to be my friend anymore, then it's his problem. Little story: Some years ago an old friend of mine fell asleep driving his car and crashed into tree. I was in that car, sleeping myself with my head on the door window. Gladly I awaked a few seconds before the impact and was able to pull my head away, then the door got pushed in by the tree. I got only slightly injured by all the glass that came in. I had a lot of luck. Then my friend admitted, he fell asleep. Later he asked me to tell the police that there was a deer on the street that he tried to avoid, because he wanted to get the insurance for his car. The car was a case for the junk yard. Well, I didn't do that. It was him, who made that mistake and I thought his request is unethical, especially because I think it was luck that my head didn't land on the tree. On the other hand I didn't want that he gets punished, so all I said that I just waked up a few secs before that, think I saw something, but that I'm not sure and it all went too fast then we already left the street and it crashed. He didn't get his money from the insurance, they want evidence, the police suspected that he fell asleep and that lied about it, so they guessed right, but they had no proof and the thing was done for me. My friend wasn't too happy and once or twice moaned about it, but bleh, if he had ended our friendship, it would have accepted it with regretting anything. Ok, so much about saying no, but what I first wanted to answer is: 'the red line' that you mentioned, depends not only on what CCP and some vet think is reasonable, but on the general perception of the customers. Disappointed customers vote with their wallet and they don't need to justify themselves. So if an incident that CCP and some vets consider small, nevertheless makes thousands of customers so unhappy in a way that they vote with their wallet, then it's probably better for CCP to try to avoid those incidents in the future, no matter if they think the reaction of the community is over the top or not. A games success depends a lot on the image and if trivial things can damage that image, then I'd say make sure that those trivial things better don't happen. I wish for the CCP employees that this can be achieved without more drastic measurements like not allowing them to play EVE.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 00:43:00 - [123] Should devs be allowed to play as regular players? Yes does anyone have the right to stop them? No Should forum drama queens shut up and die already? sure, I'll provide the bullets
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 00:56:00 - [124] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Should devs be allowed to play as regular players? Yes does anyone have the right to stop them? No Should forum drama queens shut up and die already? sure, I'll provide the bullets you know, you really shouldn't get personal and you should really try to better your arguments... no arguments just a alt? feeling he have to say something... ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Sasakisan	Posted - 2007.05.28 01:03:00 - [125] Another game I've played had a solution to this problem. It had a persistent test server where all the employee characters were that ran the latest version of the game. Players were also welcome to start characters on this server and enough did for there to be a critical mass of players on the server. Employees were able to play the game and do testing and evaluation without tainting the employee-free servers.
Natalia Fachiri Minmatar Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.28 01:08:00 - [126] Devs should be allowed to play their game same as evryone. However the account(s) they use to play should be strictly monitored.
Rhaegor Stormborn Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.05.28 01:15:00 - [127] No.
Dave White coracao ardente	Posted - 2007.05.28 01:17:00 - [128] After the older, and more recent developments, I'd have to say no. CORA. Killboard Personal Killboard
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 01:23:00 - [129] Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 28/05/2007 01:24:26 i thought i better put this is to clear some of the argument people use: Originally by: Malloc Memrel Originally by: Malloc MemrelThis is the first and probably only post on eve-o I'll ever make, as I've never been much of a "Game X Forums" kind of guy, but I had to say this. As an ex-Blizzard employee, I am flabbergasted at the extent to which developer presence contaminates the player pool. With WoW there wasn't a line between our player accounts and our personal accounts- there was a wall, a moat, a spike-filled trench, and electrified barbed wire. You so much as tried to enter a developer command into the console, you'd be kicked from the server, your account would be flagged, and unless you had a really damn good rason for attempting to bring developer capabilities into the game your ass was fired. You told no one anything about the game behind the curtain, you never told anyone in-game that you even worked for the company, or your ass was fired. The impetus for crossing that line in eve is entirely beyond me. And don't start for a second with "We need to see how things work." Rubbish. You've got one of the most robust test servers known to MMOs, you've got ridiculously fluid interaction from your player base (At least from the bottom-up) and if nothing else you could have internal servers to try things on. Having anyone with even the possibility of developer powers in the public server is nothing short of madness. Having powers above and beyond normal players, or having access to information beyond the average player, is akin to putting water in chocolate- a single drop can cause a whole batch to sieze and it's ruined just like that. "But what about GMs?" you ask. Fair enough, they need certain powers to set things right. But they should only ever exist in the game when no other option presents itself. They should be invisible, intangible, a last resort for a coding malfunction or dispute that requires GM omniscience to solve. They should not be people but a service, identifiable only to the point that they can be held accountable for their actions. If you tried to log in as a GM account anywhere but at Blizzard's GM center, hell, if you even hinted that you had a GM account, you'd be canned so fast your head would spin. That CCP would willingly and intentionally contaminate the public player base with what amounts to demi-gods with varying degrees of moral fortitude just boggles my mind. The thing is, I know some CCPers here on the american side of things, people I've worked with in the past, and I just feel so sorry for them. I just want to say to them, "What the hell is going on over there? What kind of people are you working for?" but I know it isn't their fault. Bottom line, CCP doesn't care. What exactly they don't care about, I'm not sure; it could be that they don't care about people being in a position to abuse powers beyond what normal paying customers can do, or it could be that they don't care about the effect establishing an Old Boy's Club with their closest pals has on the rest of the game, or it could be any number of things. But the inevitable conclusion is that there is some aspect of the past and current troubles that they are simply turning their noses up at. The sad thing is, I left WoW for EvE because despite all the work I had put into it, EvE struck me as the superior product. Ironically, I was half wrong and half right. Eve has the potential to be a superior product, but this kind of customer relations seems to spit in the face of everyone who wants to play a game with a firm set of established rules applicable throughout the playerbase. edit: just last incident if people want to know what its about ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.28 01:24:00 - [130] The simple answer is they should not be in game, for the simple reason of avoiding giving any groups untoward advantage. "however" It aint simple. There are a variety of points in favor of allowing it. First point (The big point): As stated by others, it is IMPOSSIBLE to really understand the game that players play, unless you ARE a player. Writting the software counts for a lot, but it does not count for this and it never will count for this. Not Ever. Second Point (minor point): What will stop them from going home after working and logging in to Eve? Even if they are not suspose to, they still can. Better to have it in the open, with CCP knowing which characters are CCP employees. Third point: As part of the trade off for being able to play, place limits on how many CCP can be in one alliance and/or corp. Even go so far as to encourage some to switch to different corps now and then so they dont get to concentrated. I like simple a lot, so much so I am slightly inclined against CCP in game, but the virtues of them playing are also large. I'd vote a very very weak "no", to keep them out, but I wont lose a second of sleep if they are in game.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 01:44:00 - [131] read my post above Originally by: Sergeant Spot The simple answer is they should not be in game, for the simple reason of avoiding giving any groups untoward advantage. "however" It aint simple. There are a variety of points in favor of allowing it. First point (The big point): As stated by others, it is IMPOSSIBLE to really understand the game that players play, unless you ARE a player. Writting the software counts for a lot, but it does not count for this and it never will count for this. Not Ever. Second Point (minor point): What will stop them from going home after working and logging in to Eve? Even if they are not suspose to, they still can. Better to have it in the open, with CCP knowing which characters are CCP employees. Third point: As part of the trade off for being able to play, place limits on how many CCP can be in one alliance and/or corp. Even go so far as to encourage some to switch to different corps now and then so they dont get to concentrated. I like simple a lot, so much so I am slightly inclined against CCP in game, but the virtues of them playing are also large. I'd vote a very very weak "no", to keep them out, but I wont lose a second of sleep if they are in game. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
aNtis0cial The Movement	Posted - 2007.05.28 01:52:00 - [132] Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: CrestoftheStars So I say: No they should not be in the game as a player. And I say: YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for. The problem is they are not mutially exclusive, they can't program and improve a game they aren't playing as they will just make unbalanced changes, the facts of life are they need to be able to play and they shouldn't be banned from playing just because they have access to these high level tools. Lol they dont need to play to make balanced changes, they need a server of their own to test things, and everyone can see that eve is nothing close to be balanced at least pvp wise, for all the other stuff they have data they can access at all times. In my point of view Eve is hanging by a thread the fact is that Eve is a great product overall but all these scandals the poor job that they do at balancing Races/Ships makes alot of ppl quit the game, they continue to add more features to the game without touching the real issues.
WhitePhantom Gallente Edenists	Posted - 2007.05.28 01:59:00 - [133] Edited by: WhitePhantom on 28/05/2007 01:58:43 Yes, I want the game to be improved upon, and not have changes like Trammel from Ultima Online happen. Whatever we say is not going to change anything, they have said there is no possible way that the policy of staff having personal accounts will change. Suppose the only possible fair alternative would not to allow them to take part in alliance warfare for very long. But how long exactly is getting involved to much, which of course why that policy doesn't exist, because issues that exists with huge battles are being fixed. If they are part of alliance warfare is the fact that problem is being fixed in Revlations 2 not because they experienced the problem, and are able to give the people that write the client some educated feedback. When I say educated feedback, I hope these developers have some educational background, so they are able to use the proper terms when speaking to the programmers. From experience I can tell you most players don't are unable to give enough information on an issue, for it to be any help, and only those players who have been trained in something similar are able to be helpful. Which of course leads us to the claims of players being friends with developers
Pudgy d'Noob	Posted - 2007.05.28 02:11:00 - [134] 1) Employees at a casino are not allowed to gamble at the casino, even if that would give them better insight on how to operate the casino. Employees of a lottery are not allowed to play that lottery. not even their families can participate. Ever wonder why? 2) When the posibility of conflict of interest exists, eliminating these posibilites is the pretty good insurance. 3) The developers insight into the game is very limited. It only accounts for their experience. If they didn't have all this "so valuable" insight into the game by playing, maybe they would actually listen to the customers. 4) If they are going to play, then nobody should ever know about it. This has been proven not possible. 5) Some employees may be ok to play the game, but anyone who has high levels of access should not be playing. In addition, not even fellow employees should know who they are in game. Only the IA team should have that info.
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.28 02:42:00 - [135] Edited by: The Pointless on 28/05/2007 02:41:23 Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob 1) Employees at a casino are not allowed to gamble at the casino, even if that would give them better insight on how to operate the casino. Employees of a lottery are not allowed to play that lottery. not even their families can participate. Ever wonder why? ONE major difference... Casinos offer real-world cash as prizes. EVE doesn't. And EVE is not a lottery. ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
DiuxDium Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 02:51:00 - [136] 15 bucks a month doesn't give you a say in their internal affairs. If you don't like it leave. Fin~ ------------- The above user should never be taken seriously.
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.05.28 02:51:00 - [137] I vote yes, it's all good. I think we need the GM's & Devs to be able to be IN the game for one reason or another, and how about the imersioners team? Like Eris? And it is cool to have the game made by people who care and know what we go through. A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Pudgy d'Noob	Posted - 2007.05.28 02:55:00 - [138] Edited by: Pudgy d''Noob on 28/05/2007 02:54:51 Originally by: The Pointless Edited by: The Pointless on 28/05/2007 02:41:23 Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob 1) Employees at a casino are not allowed to gamble at the casino, even if that would give them better insight on how to operate the casino. Employees of a lottery are not allowed to play that lottery. not even their families can participate. Ever wonder why? ONE major difference... Casinos offer real-world cash as prizes. EVE doesn't. And EVE is not a lottery. Eve is a game. Casinos offer games. Real world rewards can be more than just cash. Entertainment offers an equitable amount of utility, utility that could otherwise be purchased with cash. While the game may not pay cash, it does offer the opportunity to barter. Anything that is bartered carries value. Trading characters is a form of bartering. My time invested into the game is represented by opportunity costs, the opportunity I would have to make real life cash. By allowing isk to be traded for items that are purchased for real cash, ccp has placed tangible value on ingame time. Eve contains a lottery.
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.05.28 02:59:00 - [139] Edited by: FarScape III on 28/05/2007 02:58:50 Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob Edited by: Pudgy d''Noob on 28/05/2007 02:54:51 Originally by: The Pointless Edited by: The Pointless on 28/05/2007 02:41:23 Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob 1) Employees at a casino are not allowed to gamble at the casino, even if that would give them better insight on how to operate the casino. Employees of a lottery are not allowed to play that lottery. not even their families can participate. Ever wonder why? ONE major difference... Casinos offer real-world cash as prizes. EVE doesn't. And EVE is not a lottery. Eve is a game. Casinos offer games. Real world rewards can be more than just cash. Entertainment offers an equitable amount of utility, utility that could otherwise be purchased with cash. While the game may not pay cash, it does offer the opportunity to barter. Anything that is bartered carries value. Trading characters is a form of bartering. My time invested into the game is represented by opportunity costs, the opportunity I would have to make real life cash. By allowing isk to be traded for items that are purchased for real cash, ccp has placed tangible value on ingame time. Eve contains a lottery. Your time invested is made better by them being able to play their own game, and by the way you are talking here, you need to get a REAL LIFE :) P.S. Do you want the people who run your government to live in ANOTHER country? A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Pudgy d'Noob	Posted - 2007.05.28 03:00:00 - [140] Originally by: DiuxDium 15 bucks a month doesn't give you a say in their internal affairs. If you don't like it leave. Fin~ $2.99 for a tube of toothpaste gives me no say over Procter & Gambles internal affairs either. The difference is that Procter & Gamble listen to that $2.99 customer regardless. Which company sold over $80 billion in products last year? CCP or Procter & Gamble? If companies take the attitude of "Don't like it then leave" then those same companies will find it hard to grow, maybe not immediatly, but eventually.
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.28 03:02:00 - [141] Originally by: FarScape III Your time invested is made better by them being able to play their own game, and by the way you are talking here, you need to get a REAL LIFE :) Ditto that! Originally by: FarScape III P.S. Do you want the people who run your government to live in ANOTHER country? Nope, why do you ask? ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Pudgy d'Noob	Posted - 2007.05.28 03:02:00 - [142] Originally by: FarScape III Edited by: FarScape III on 28/05/2007 02:58:50 Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob Edited by: Pudgy d''Noob on 28/05/2007 02:54:51 Originally by: The Pointless Edited by: The Pointless on 28/05/2007 02:41:23 Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob 1) Employees at a casino are not allowed to gamble at the casino, even if that would give them better insight on how to operate the casino. Employees of a lottery are not allowed to play that lottery. not even their families can participate. Ever wonder why? ONE major difference... Casinos offer real-world cash as prizes. EVE doesn't. And EVE is not a lottery. Eve is a game. Casinos offer games. Real world rewards can be more than just cash. Entertainment offers an equitable amount of utility, utility that could otherwise be purchased with cash. While the game may not pay cash, it does offer the opportunity to barter. Anything that is bartered carries value. Trading characters is a form of bartering. My time invested into the game is represented by opportunity costs, the opportunity I would have to make real life cash. By allowing isk to be traded for items that are purchased for real cash, ccp has placed tangible value on ingame time. Eve contains a lottery. Your time invested is made better by them being able to play their own game, and by the way you are talking here, you need to get a REAL LIFE :) P.S. Do you want the people who run your government to live in ANOTHER country? I dont mind if CCP live in the same country in which they produce the game :P I would mind if the police who arrested me also served as teh judge who sentenced me.
Roland San	Posted - 2007.05.28 03:06:00 - [143] There is no reason why CCP employess should not play the game they've put so much effort into making. As said before, they have to play the game, they have to be in touch with what's happening in-game. Them having regular, non-dev accounts on TQ is not a bad thing. But they have to follow a code of conduct, too. A set of rules to ensure they don't abuse their position, and it's gotta be up to the upper management to enforce and monitor this. And there has to be accountability. If something goes awry, if a CCP employee breaches the set of rules, there has to be consequences. As much as we'd hate to see someone lose a job over this, it has to be clear that the rules exist for a purpose, and ANY violation of that will result in termination. It's not excessive: there should be no legit reason to break the rules in any way. All this leaves is the quality of the rules, and how effective they are in ensuring no further misconduct. Some may say that CCP's reputation is forever tarnished in the light of recent events. Some have left the game in disgust. Others are standing by CCP. Ultimately, the game can never be perfect, it's always evolving. I'd just rather the devs fix the imperfections like lag and such, and not create new ones.
Maxamus Rex Caldari Nevada Space Salvage	Posted - 2007.05.28 03:12:00 - [144] In most mmo's there are many servers called shards or realms, when one becomes a gm in most mmo's they can not be a gm on the server where there main character is played so they they can not help friends or there guild/corp. eve was we all know has only one server so the gm's have to play in the same world with there main this can be a problem how to fix this is the same trust problem that comes up in the rl with police and other jobs with power over other people. ccp must have a group of dev's that do not play to be gm's if they are to do this on one server it's they only way this will work. Millions for defense not one penny in tribute
DiuxDium Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 03:38:00 - [145] Edited by: DiuxDium on 28/05/2007 03:37:29 Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob Originally by: DiuxDium 15 bucks a month doesn't give you a say in their internal affairs. If you don't like it leave. Fin~ $2.99 for a tube of toothpaste gives me no say over Procter & Gambles internal affairs either. The difference is that Procter & Gamble listen to that $2.99 customer regardless. Which company sold over $80 billion in products last year? CCP or Procter & Gamble? If companies take the attitude of "Don't like it then leave" then those same companies will find it hard to grow, maybe not immediatly, but eventually. No they don't. e; On a related note, said company is in the red. ------------- The above user should never be taken seriously.
Pudgy d'Noob	Posted - 2007.05.28 03:48:00 - [146] Quote: No they don't. e; On a related note, said company is in the red. So far in the red that they spent $56 billion dollars acquiring Gillette during the fiscal year 2006, had nearly $80 billion in gross revenues and over $9 billion in after tax profits, coupled with a very positive operating cash flow, operate as the largest company within their industry and are ranked within the top 25 largest companies in the world. Your credibility is diminished to zero with you baseless comment.
Badhands Gallente DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.28 03:50:00 - [147] Originally by: Cypherous they shouldn't be banned from playing just because they have access to these high level tools. By "high level tools" do you mean BoB leadership? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Statement on dev misconduct: for the record, Darkstar1 has 3 pos in game only, both are and have always worked fine
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.05.28 03:50:00 - [148] Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob Originally by: FarScape III Edited by: FarScape III on 28/05/2007 02:58:50 Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob Edited by: Pudgy d''Noob on 28/05/2007 02:54:51 Originally by: The Pointless Edited by: The Pointless on 28/05/2007 02:41:23 Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob 1) Employees at a casino are not allowed to gamble at the casino, even if that would give them better insight on how to operate the casino. Employees of a lottery are not allowed to play that lottery. not even their families can participate. Ever wonder why? ONE major difference... Casinos offer real-world cash as prizes. EVE doesn't. And EVE is not a lottery. Eve is a game. Casinos offer games. Real world rewards can be more than just cash. Entertainment offers an equitable amount of utility, utility that could otherwise be purchased with cash. While the game may not pay cash, it does offer the opportunity to barter. Anything that is bartered carries value. Trading characters is a form of bartering. My time invested into the game is represented by opportunity costs, the opportunity I would have to make real life cash. By allowing isk to be traded for items that are purchased for real cash, ccp has placed tangible value on ingame time. Eve contains a lottery. Your time invested is made better by them being able to play their own game, and by the way you are talking here, you need to get a REAL LIFE :) P.S. Do you want the people who run your government to live in ANOTHER country? I dont mind if CCP live in the same country in which they produce the game :P I would mind if the police who arrested me also served as teh judge who sentenced me. hehe, you make some sence but this to me is just a game and even if devs did one or two things strange, it is no big deal, the game is way fun. Besides it is just more noticable in this game good or bad things doone or just them playing normal to learn the game along with us. It is cool not to want them in the game but to me it is only a game and people who blow up my hard erned ship are more of a pain then anything. But it's all cool, right? I don't mind if they destroy my ship I spent many hours getting and I don't thing Devs in the game makes it worse then if they were out. A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Risien Drogonne Shadow Gypsies R i s e	Posted - 2007.05.28 03:52:00 - [149] I don't want to play a game the devs don't play. How are they supposed to make any good gameplay or balance changes if they've never played the game they're working on? That's just silly.
Pudgy d'Noob	Posted - 2007.05.28 04:02:00 - [150] Edited by: Pudgy d''Noob on 28/05/2007 04:02:46 Originally by: Risien Drogonne I don't want to play a game the devs don't play. How are they supposed to make any good gameplay or balance changes if they've never played the game they're working on? That's just silly. Ok I concede to a certain degree. I can't dispute the fact that part of the game development needs to be handled by people that actually play the game. However, there seems to be entirely too much temptation for some to take advantage. In addition, when the people who are in charge of making high level decisions on game changes are playing, does that not place them in a biased position to make "unbalanced" changes? Programing a line of code and knowing how the game mechanics should function are two seperate activities. QA should be the people playing the game to discover how to better develop the game. QA should also have no special tools available, or at least highly limited. In other words - some people may need to be playing the game, but those with large amounts of access should not be in the game. I dont know the answer to the conundrum that CCP has discovered, but I know that the current circumstances are far from adequate.
Karasuma Akane Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.28 04:08:00 - [151] Originally by: Fedacorr Edited by: Fedacorr on 27/05/2007 22:04:29 Devs absolutely should be able and encouraged to 'play the game'. Devs should absolutely never be allowed to have those player characters be in any player corp or alliance. Not ever. If they need to understand corp play, let the dev characters form their own corp together. No CCP employees should be members of player corporations and alliances. Let them stay in NPC corps or create CCP corps that don't participate in alliance activities. Devs and GMs need to decide what is more important, their job or their gaming, and if they can't be adult & mature enough to keep their professional and personal lives separated, let them look for work elsewhere. It's called integrity. ----- The possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately 3,720 to 1.
Raketenkaese	Posted - 2007.05.28 04:24:00 - [152] Originally by: The Pointless Leeeeeeets just get this one tiny little thing or two straight: To date there has only been one (proven, admitted and dealt with) incident... You know, theres a saying which goes something like this ... 'One time is one time too many'. It s one thing if you muck up you presonal stuff due to bad character and discipline, but in a context like this you simply cant afford it, and especially not handle it like the rest of ccp s done. If it was one dev who stepped outside the boundaries and shuved his dirty little fingers in the cookie jar and ccp then decides to keep him on and doesnt come forth entirely with what actions they ve taken towards the offending staff, they jump into the same boat. The dev should be fired and CCP become totally transparant in these matters, in an internet environment especially. They owe that to their customers, themselves, their shareholders and whom ever else might have an interest in their activities.
Pudgy d'Noob	Posted - 2007.05.28 04:32:00 - [153] Originally by: The Pointless Leeeeeeets just get this one tiny little thing or two straight: To date there has only been one (proven, admitted and dealt with) incident... Additionally, there have been more than one proven occurances. There was the occurance with the t2 BPOs being spawned. THere was also the case of the new GM spawning faction ships and faction gear for himself. Both of these cases were discovered by players and reported to the community by players. Who knows how often this really occurs? The only instances the players ever know about are the times when the culprit is caught by the players. Tranparancy is not in the CCP handbook.
WhitePhantom Gallente Edenists	Posted - 2007.05.28 04:33:00 - [154] Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob 1) Employees at a casino are not allowed to gamble at the casino, even if that would give them better insight on how to operate the casino. Employees of a lottery are not allowed to play that lottery. not even their families can participate. Ever wonder why? The casino can pay people to give them feedback, your also dealing with a different thing, something you can present to somebody in a formal matter. As a programmer, really the only way to be able to do something, is to experience it yourself. For example the only way to know if the changes to Vista's start menu was a good idea, was to actually do it, then experience it yourself and get additional feedback. Which is what I believe CCP to be doing with Revlations 2 on the test server, and to know if thats a good idea, they have had to experience it before the suggested changes. Just like that Microsoft programmer had to experience Windows XP before he changed something for Vista. I know this is a horrible explain, but as a Computer Science student, I understand the position the developers at CCP must face.
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.28 05:02:00 - [155] All mmosÆs have devs and gmÆs. All mmoÆs have test servers which are open to general players. All other mmoÆs have devs playing on test servers. No other mmoÆs have devs and customers in the same corp/ guild/ clan on a public server. Some mmoÆs allow devs/gms to play on public servers under rigid guidelines. (devs are typically not allowed to reveal their identity to anyone and have no access to dev functions while using personal accounts) No other mmoÆs have the ôcurrent problemö that is going on here.
Relaria Hossin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.28 05:06:00 - [156] Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 05:11:17 Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 05:06:01 Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 05:05:27 Originally by: Ira Theos Edited by: Ira Theos on 27/05/2007 21:08:57 Edited by: Ira Theos on 27/05/2007 20:50:45 My personal thought about CCP personnel playing on Tranquility is that they should never be allowed to be part of any Corp or Alliance. As a suggestion, perhaps CCP's people should be divided into their own special groups and allowed to fight each other in Empire space in such a way that they do not affect any of the "real" politics or assets in the game. They might even use these groups as the basis around which they carry out "managed" events. This would accomplish two things. First, they could get the necessary real-time stress testing they are looking for and second, since it would occur in Empire, THE NEW PLAYERS IN EMPIRE WOULD GET A LOOK AT THE BIG SHIPS IN ACTION (and maybe salvage some nice wrecks?), which would give them a taste of what they might get involved in if they make the move to zero. I stopped reading this thread when I got to this post so I don't know what you've all been talking about since it. What if the GMs and Devs were all restricted to NPC corps where they run everything instead of letting a "npc guy 433" do it. Maybe they could be the different races. Imagine having the Caldari navy flying ships built by GMs with production NPC characters, the Caldari navy pilots themselves also DEVs and staff. They could battle against NPC factions and the other races which would also be run by other staff. I would want to come work for CCP if this were the case. ****in' awesome. Edit: I bet this would start some awesome inter-office rivalries.
Hammer Ziet	Posted - 2007.05.28 05:29:00 - [157] I'm with Relaria Hossin on this one. Let them play, but NPC factions. You want RP events to turn out a certain (scripted) way? What about cleaning up the macro miners and ratters in their sphere's of intrest? They (the GMs/Devs/ISD) could be such a positive force is so many more ways contributing to the companies reputation instead of the few (I hope and want to believe) who tarnish it.
Phoebus Athenian Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 05:30:00 - [158] No Game staff should be just professionals... Start a staff only server or just play on SISI! A place that staff can't affect/destroy. For the obvious reasons of lack of professionalism... ---
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 05:51:00 - [159] as you said it would be awesome for the staff... but i kind of miss the part where it benefith the gamers?! which this is about. this is about the staff not beeing able to become a problem for the gamers.. if you look at the top of this tread i have set a little post where you can see that all arguments i have heard will fall to the ground. Originally by: Relaria Hossin Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 05:11:17 Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 05:06:01 Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 05:05:27 Originally by: Ira Theos Edited by: Ira Theos on 27/05/2007 21:08:57 Edited by: Ira Theos on 27/05/2007 20:50:45 My personal thought about CCP personnel playing on Tranquility is that they should never be allowed to be part of any Corp or Alliance. As a suggestion, perhaps CCP's people should be divided into their own special groups and allowed to fight each other in Empire space in such a way that they do not affect any of the "real" politics or assets in the game. They might even use these groups as the basis around which they carry out "managed" events. This would accomplish two things. First, they could get the necessary real-time stress testing they are looking for and second, since it would occur in Empire, THE NEW PLAYERS IN EMPIRE WOULD GET A LOOK AT THE BIG SHIPS IN ACTION (and maybe salvage some nice wrecks?), which would give them a taste of what they might get involved in if they make the move to zero. I stopped reading this thread when I got to this post so I don't know what you've all been talking about since it. What if the GMs and Devs were all restricted to NPC corps where they run everything instead of letting a "npc guy 433" do it. Maybe they could be the different races. Imagine having the Caldari navy flying ships built by GMs with production NPC characters, the Caldari navy pilots themselves also DEVs and staff. They could battle against NPC factions and the other races which would also be run by other staff. I would want to come work for CCP if this were the case. ****in' awesome. Edit: I bet this would start some awesome inter-office rivalries. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 05:57:00 - [160] Originally by: FarScape III Edited by: FarScape III on 28/05/2007 02:58:50 Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob Edited by: Pudgy d''Noob on 28/05/2007 02:54:51 Originally by: The Pointless Edited by: The Pointless on 28/05/2007 02:41:23 Originally by: Pudgy d'Noob 1) Employees at a casino are not allowed to gamble at the casino, even if that would give them better insight on how to operate the casino. Employees of a lottery are not allowed to play that lottery. not even their families can participate. Ever wonder why? ONE major difference... Casinos offer real-world cash as prizes. EVE doesn't. And EVE is not a lottery. Eve is a game. Casinos offer games. Real world rewards can be more than just cash. Entertainment offers an equitable amount of utility, utility that could otherwise be purchased with cash. While the game may not pay cash, it does offer the opportunity to barter. Anything that is bartered carries value. Trading characters is a form of bartering. My time invested into the game is represented by opportunity costs, the opportunity I would have to make real life cash. By allowing isk to be traded for items that are purchased for real cash, ccp has placed tangible value on ingame time. Eve contains a lottery. Your time invested is made better by them being able to play their own game, and by the way you are talking here, you need to get a REAL LIFE :) P.S. Do you want the people who run your government to live in ANOTHER country? this is just rubbish!!!!! do NOT say things like this which you clearly don't know anything about, actually i have posted a quete from a former WoW employee that actually exsplains this quite well, instead of just posting READ though the post first, maybe you will find that there is already the argument you use and that it have been shot to the ground so hard that it imploided (found at site 5 top ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
UndergrounD Caldari Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.05.28 06:13:00 - [161] I'm only going by the title of this thread, couldnt be bothered to read the op's post Yes they should play, its the ultimate form of quality control tbh. -----------------------------------------------
MehTheTrader University of Caille	Posted - 2007.05.28 06:18:00 - [162] I absolutely disgusted with games with cheats. Cheating is rampant in ccp no doubt, how can it not be with the system. CCP's defense against cheating is they trust their devs, this is omfg rediclous. The funniest/sadest part of this all is they rehired t20. LIKE WHAT IS WRONG WITH CCP!!??
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.28 06:41:00 - [163] EVE didn't come falling out of the sky and EVE isn't as original as everyone think it is. Homeworld was revolutionary because it led to EVE and other games. Now I'm just waiting for Homeworld online to be created and released. I will leave EVE without a thought. So why am I playing EVE? Because there's no alternative to EVE. There simply is no other game like it. CCP are a bunch of amatures because there is NO concequence for any wrongdoing on the part of CCP employees. I used to play a game called Knight Online and it was a great game untill it came to light that K2 (the company running KO) was actively helping one certain clan in the game. This clan had friends in K2 and all they had to do was ask for whatever they wanted and they got it. They were given characters and items which were editted for them. Then special events for that clan were held and everyone else was excluded from these things. Then one day a GM got banned and his great crime was not helping this clan. The leader of this clan had demanded something which this GM refused to give/do and he got punished. In the wake of this ban nearly all GM's left and only a few were left. 99% Of the time there was no GM online so cheating was rampant and then when the GM's did come online the only clan that was exempt from bans was that one particular clan. Are CCP actively involed in helping a clan/alliance? I can't claim that but there is NO concequence for anything that any of their employees does. t20 Would have been banned from any normal MMO but because he either has friends in the management of CCP or adds some 'value' to the team of developers he was kept. Is this good for the game? Sure it is, untill an alternative is released and the game dies. Then we can all sit back and say, well done CCP. You killed a great game and that's exactly what CCP are doing. And thus you can all go on and on about what laws CCP base the corruption in the game on but it's obvious that CCP won't care untill the company no longer exists. Obviously CCP are a corrupt firm because certain individuals in the game have Dev's MSN. If this isn't corrupt then why shouldn't we have them too? Why not make them public and not hide behind so called EULA's which are only meant to help a privilged few? Would the game become unbalanced if everyone had a friend who spawned BPO's and whatever else for them and left them there for 6 months? There is NO way that CCP are going to be able to claim the banning of the ISD reporter was done cleanly and legitimately since there NEVER was a petition. Now I'm sure they can edit the databse but we all know that what happened happened at the whim of BoD. CCP I recommend you get your act together or you WILL go the way many other MMO's have gone. You will pay for this secrecy for which there is absolutely no need. If you don't I pray that Sierra make Homeworld Online. Then you will see how many people stay.
Biatchen	Posted - 2007.05.28 06:45:00 - [164] Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: CrestoftheStars So I say: No they should not be in the game as a player. And I say: YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for. The problem is they are not mutially exclusive, they can't program and improve a game they aren't playing as they will just make unbalanced changes, the facts of life are they need to be able to play and they shouldn't be banned from playing just because they have access to these high level tools. Hogwash Bob Alt! I don't know of any other MMO that allows their Devs, GMs whatever to play in high profile clans or corps etc IF! they let them play at all. The Right to play should be earned and before you says "It's their game" Remember we are all paying for unbiased service here. I Vote No CCP employee should be allowed to play with or contact out of game any account holder period! they have already been busted once and then covered up anything that reared it's ugly head since. They were given not one but Two chances now and you deem we should give them a third? GOT MSN?
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.28 06:48:00 - [165] That was one half of my rant. Getting to the second part: To prevent EVE from going down in history as a failure I hope that CCP sets concrete rules and regulations which are strictly enforced. This means that any wrongdoing is punished immediately by a ban. Once these rules are enforced we can have Dev's and GM's playing the game and there's no need for them not to be in any particular alliance/corp/clan because any mistake is harshly dealt with. That will restore credibility and will make the need for another EVE/HW like game unnecessary.
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.28 06:56:00 - [166] Edited by: Terminus adacai on 28/05/2007 07:01:48 The fact that there have been broaches of trust in the past says it all. I agree with them being able to play the same toons we have access to, but remove these coded god powers. They can do play god on Serenity. Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Aleranie	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:16:00 - [167] Yes they should be able to play the game. I very much want them to enjoy the game, and make it a better game because of it. However, they need to be professional enough to know that aiding their friends with their incomparable insight into game mechanics is blatantly unfair. Responding to msn'd requests to get a volunteer removed is so beyond even that bright line, its in another country.
Mortania Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:17:00 - [168] I'd guess Kieron agrees with your point. Note that he vehemently denies being in any player run alliance. He's the one that came from outside the industry into CCP. He understands conflicts of interest and not putting yourself in a position to even appear biased, because that is what ultimately matters, the appearance of bias, not the actual bias. Personally, I implore Keiron to be the voice of reason in CCP. This conflict of interest and appearance of bias MUST be stopped. It WILL be the ruin of EVE, maybe not now, maybe not for another year or so. But community faith is being eroded, and once it goes, there will be no earning it back. Please save this game that we all love so much. --- CCP: Please disallow your employees from playing normal player accounts.
Roland San	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:18:00 - [169] Originally by: WhitePhantom Wouldn't a fine do something similar? Why must somebody lose their job, to make a point, since we don't know how they punish the offenders we cannot judge their punishment now can we? I don't even want to know how they do punish those people, because its thats person's well being that was effected. If they wanted to make it public, then they could, it just would have to be prior knowlege to begin working for CCP. I still think there is alot to be seen, and till then, I think all these claims are hog wash. A fine would be nothing more that a slap on the wrist. Take the typical pod pilot. He is bound by the EULA CCP has set up. Breaching that EULA will result in a ban. The banned account owner would've lost whatever real-life money, time and effort put into that particular account. It's pretty clear, breach the EULA, and bye-bye account. Now take your typical dev. He is in a position of responsibility, which demands a certain amount of integrity and honesty. He should by all means be bound by a set of rules that are as defining and specific as the EULA that governs the rest of eve community. This is to ensure that when that dev is in-game, in any event where a conflict of interest may arise, he should know where he stands, and what the repercussions to his actions are. If he fails to adhere by the rules, it is through his irresponsibility that his integrity and honesty can be called into doubt. Now, there should be no reason for a company to retain an employee who has broken the rules and broken that trust. Breach the rules, and bye-bye job. In the past, it's clear that there really hasn't been a set of defining guidelines set, hence the current situation. Things have to change, CCP has to get tough on this, or people will get disillusioned. People would want to invest time and effort into a solid company with a strong sense of professionalism and a top notch product. As it stands now, two out of three isn't cutting it.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:25:00 - [170] The ex blizard employee: I wonder why he is an ex employee. I also wonder what position he held. The other games: The other games don't have a single shard server with 200k players. The other games aren't developed by CCP. CCP is for...: Companies have an objective, most often that is to make money. Sometimes it has a different objective, something that is entirely personal to the owners of the company. We pay for it: Sure we do, but we pay for it on their terms. Nothing that has been done by T20 has been illegal, it could have been against company policy (and then grounds for dismissal). Some seem to forget that there might not have been any company policy regarding this issue before the whole T20 incident. There should be one now, I even find it acceptable that it isn't grounds for dismissal. CCP has always been very straightforward with what kind of game Eve-online is, it's a sandbox where anything goes. You have no guarantees of fair play, balance, or real world rules governing competition. I would love to see the look on the face of the judge that something like this is brought before. God tools: I highly doubt that the 'god' tools everyone keeps mentioning are integrated into the eve client. I expect these tools to be seperate programs that directly connect to the database and servers. I could be wrong, but why not ask a dev how the toolset works and if it's integrated with the eve client. ps. I'm bowing out of this 'discussion', mostly because i get this feeling that i'm talking to a brickwall (no offense intended).
Rod Steel	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:30:00 - [171] Edited by: Rod Steel on 28/05/2007 07:31:24 Let them all play eve as often as they want, as long as it's on a regular account, not one of those "god mode" jobs they are currently using. That way they can still monitor the game, and see what effect any changes are having, or what is needed. Having gm's/devs playing in a game full of paying customers on a "god mode" account, and being biased toward a certain portion of that paying player base is just asking for trouble, bloody naive, and should never have been allowed to occur. As I mentioned in a earlier post, after all that has transpired, even suggesting the paying player base follow the rules of the EULA is a joke, when their own people can and have done far more damage to the game than a single paying player ever could just by ignoring the EULA...oh, the irony...
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:30:00 - [172] does not matter if devs have player characters or not. even if they don't ppl will "make friendship" with them on fan fests to receive a direct msn line for asking small favors like scout certain system in polaris frig 24/7 and such.
Mortania Minmatar Carbide Industries Apocalyptica.	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:31:00 - [173] Originally by: Cergorach The ex blizard employee: I wonder why he is an ex employee. I also wonder what position he held. That's the cheapest bull. A massive percentage of the entire company left after completing WoW because basically no one who worked on the product got any sort of bonuses. Not a dime. Thanks for the 100s of Millions. Keep working hard! I know nothing but ex-Blizzard employees. I don't know anyone who stayed on but the highest of the high. --- CCP: Please disallow your employees from playing normal player accounts.
Mallikanth	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:35:00 - [174] Originally by: Ryas Nia Yes they should play the game, Yes you should have ISD/GM's in game, No you should not have developer accounts in game. Yep. Succinct and correct IMHO.
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:38:00 - [175] Edited by: Ben Nato on 28/05/2007 07:39:47 We pay for quality, regardless of EULA. It may state in the EULA that there's no guarantee yet you still have the right to a refund or a new product simply through the protection of the law. The law on the net is basically non-existant however, CCP are based in Iceland and this Icelandic law apply. Also EVE's server is based in London, and thus British law applies. If neither offer protection then maybe there're EU statutes that do. If not then EVE might be a registed product in the US thus falling under US law aswell. CCP have an office in China and so even fall under Chinese law (which is so lax that a Titan won't have a single problem flying through the holes). Take your pick. EULA has no bearing in this case, only national and international law. There were companies in the EU who did not offer refunds to unsatisfied customers. Laws were introduced to ensure that customers were given the right service regardless of company law and policy. Do a little research you will see your claims that we only 'pay' for a product without the guarantee that we will get what we pay for is totally deluded. "We can't help you with your 5000 Euro T.V. sir, the EULA states clearly that we will not help you in case of malfunction or any other accident within any timelimit". I thank everyone who posted such trash for protecting rogue traders and I'm glad we have Brussels who will, to the best of their ability, protect us from you.
Ambris Kobayashi	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:47:00 - [176] I am wondering, wasn't the test server made to test things. So basically Devs shouldn't have any power on the live server, only GMs should have and all the tools they can use can be monitored. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if it is allready sorted like this. But perhaps this whole discussion is about GMs only. It will always be possible for them to have some extra information they can use in the game, but it will only be about upcoming changes. regards, Ambris
Adaris Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:49:00 - [177] To OP: Your only addressing the GMs/Gods that are breaking the rules and helping people. By all means they should be removed from GM status and demoted to normal players, but not every other GM who follows the rules of this game (ccp rules too) and does their job by helping out thousands of people per day. Your enitre argument to me is based on all GMs doing this, its not the case. A few bad apples, and you condemn the enitre orchard. Honestly. Please Help me, YOU could be next!
Belenkas	Posted - 2007.05.28 07:49:00 - [178] Being Developer in another game, I can assure you it is in best DEV intentions to keep the gameplay fair and DEV never constructs tools for himself to use ingame to make him uber-player. That's of course if the developers are looking forward to keeping the game alive and actually earning money for living from it. I am sure EVE is amongst those(despite some bad experiences regarding developer misconduct in the past) Playing the game you create makes it possible to see some unbalanced stuff yourself, since amongst players there always are 1000 opinions. And playing the game you create just makes work be fun.
Mr Adequate Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.28 08:07:00 - [179] First some suggestions, can't we have a decent poll option in this forum? Oh, and a user driven discussion moderation system would help get rid of the drivel a little (my head still hurts from reading 107+ pages over the weekend ) I really miss +5 insightful. On dev's / GM's playing on the main server: (1) Yes, they can play ; but nobody should know about their alts, telling people that your alt is a dev is a firing offence. Also, no god mode powers for dev's on the main server. They find a problem -- recreate it on the test server. Its there for a reason; and allows for any possible problem. CCP should strictly enforce this. Off duty, they can have their pow-pow with the rest of us. (2) GM's need tools for their job. They can have some nice point-and-click webtools that allow them to read petitions, fix agents, make customers happy . However, access should be restricted to needs-only basis. GM's should have a code of conduct ; and every decission should leave a papertrail that can be appealed. Eg. you ban someone; motivate why. No petition can be deleted or closed without stating why. (3) Access to the main user database should be restricted to authorised staff only. Someone mentioned you can play this game from an SQL command line. Nice, but not really necessary is it? Eg. only GM's properly shielded should be able to do things on the database ; and admin db staff only needs to backup / modify tables on dev request. (Eg. your paper trail) CCP's most important assest are (1) The user client (2) The online world that is eve, and which is essentially a big MSSQL db. (3) Its 200,000 happy subscribers Together these three create lots of $$$ for CCP. A broken client loses customers, a corrupt game environment loses customers, ***** customers tend to move on. This games eats everyones time, we play it for fun, sometimes the stakes are high. You lose its bad; if you feel someone cheated, you feel you wasted all your time so far and you were a dumb fool for doing so.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.28 08:45:00 - [180] I think a lot of people are still missing out what the "developer accounts" are. These are not the accounts they play the game with, they are the ones with the dev tools which allow them to bug fix etc, without it they wouldn't be able to handle petitions (anyone remember the devs helping on the queue 6months- year ago?), or go to Jita to investigate the lag. Having Test server only accounts severly limits their ability to improve the game, having player accounts allows them to invesitigate issues fully. Furthermore, limiting their regular player accounts to NPC corps/dev only corps would limit their involvement in 0.0 affairs yes, but this would mean they would struggle in the development of 0.0 warfare. Many of the proposed changes in Rev 2.0 come down to the fact that the devs have played the game, done POS warfare, created outposts and can see how they are not fun and can find ways to improve them. Also if a dev corp was created and they decided to go on a raid, killed everything and lost nothing, many people would claim they are cheating, when they are not. I like the fact the devs play the game and get to enjoy all elements of it, they have worked hard at it and with the odd exception, they play fair.
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.28 08:48:00 - [181] Edited by: Krulla on 28/05/2007 08:49:53 You people make me laugh. Keeping the customers happy is what puts the roof over the heads of CCP employees and they're families, and puts dinner on they're tables. To any sane person, that is infinitely more important than cheating in a video game. Yes, there's been one proven allegation, yes, there's been others that are currently under investigation, but to assume that most if not all CCP employees cheat is just plain ignorant. Kieron stated somewhere (can't remember where) that CCP developer/GM accounts were kept strictly seperate from they're playing accounts, and that if they revealed to any player what position they held, the character would immediately be deleted. If you honestly think the game would be better with GMs who have never had the same problems as you're petitioning, or with Devs who have no feel for the game they are developing, you are quite honestly wrong. No, I'm not a BoB alt. No, I've never been in BoB. I just have a bit of common sense. ------------------------- Sigs are for noobs.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.28 08:55:00 - [182] Be careful with that common sense Krulla, I was proven to be an idiot when I tried to use it earlier Very good points raised there.
Nostic Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:03:00 - [183] Edited by: Nostic on 28/05/2007 09:02:20 I was told by a GM once when shooting a bugged outpost that they should document their game and post clear rules, since it's impossible to tell what are bugs and what are features (bumping stuff out of pos's, shooting through shields, are you kidding me?). His response was that players need to discover things themselves. This is where it's inherently unfair to have any devs in any alliance and in contact with any players. Information is priceless in this game, and with undocumented rules, it's unfair to have a dev in your alliance whether it's known by other players or not.
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:45:00 - [184] To claim that the t20 incident was a one off thing is rubbish. The t20 brought the whole corruption to the light because if there was nothing to it then why was the whistleblower banned? Why was t20 rewarded? Because there's more to it than meets the eye. CCP can investigate all they want but the whole t20 affair has damaged their credibility so badly that many will never believe what they say is truth. Kieron can be as nice as he may be and he might have devoted his life to us but he is still being told what to do and what not to do by CCP, his employers. So is he going to tell the truth? Does he have the power to tell the truth? Does he even know the truth? We don't know, don't delude yourselves that you do. You either believe CCP or you don't. Either way there's a propaganda war going on and I've chosen my side. Sure CCP might deny me help and sure I could send a few letters to the Office of Fair Trading in London and Brussels. But by then it's gone too far and it's time for all to leave the game. And this isn't just about DS1 or some stupid pos. This is about BoD having CCP/Dev's MSN and being able to contact them through different channels, channels which we aren't privileged to. [ 2007.03.20 06:30:15 ] Orange Species > isd reporters are not to interfere with gameplay [ 2007.03.20 06:30:22 ] Orange Species > that includes getting too close [ 2007.03.20 06:30:25 ] Orange Species > to our ships [ 2007.03.20 06:30:32 ] D4kkon > petition her [ 2007.03.20 06:30:57 ] Orange Species > nah no petition [ 2007.03.20 06:31:00 ] Orange Species > msn chat is enough [ 2007.03.20 06:31:05 ] D4kkon > rgr Be fair, be open and do your job CCP!! Give us all Dev's MSN adresses. Don't just repeat CCP by claiming that the investigation will be fair. If BoD can just contact their Dev mates and have an ISD reporter banned then there's something seriously wrong and the core of this apple is more than rotten. Mirial was in browsing (illegally) one of these ISD forums when one of the 'recommended' story paths was mandated by CCP, namely "_____ side must win, see to this immediately." NOW THAT IS FAIRNESS!!!! All of you with common sense, please respond to my post and please tell us all why CCP won't give us all Dev's MSN addresses.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:45:00 - [185] Originally by: Mortania Originally by: Cergorach The ex blizard employee: I wonder why he is an ex employee. I also wonder what position he held. That's the cheapest bull. A massive percentage of the entire company left after completing WoW because basically no one who worked on the product got any sort of bonuses. Not a dime. Thanks for the 100s of Millions. Keep working hard! I know nothing but ex-Blizzard employees. I don't know anyone who stayed on but the highest of the high. hehe you actually gave him a answer? .. i thought he was to stupid to even deserve the answer and the slap ;) but well thanks for doing it anyway ;) hehe... problem is as you yourself has pointed out, unless they do something exstreme the trust will be broken, and once broken it will never return and people will jump from the game as soon as anything else that seems like the smallest interest comes out.. this will be the death of the game unless something is done, no it will not die right now, and properly not for 1-2 years but then it's gone. the only way a game can hold players for a very long time is getting those players to "trust and love" you and what you do, having the players "on your side" so to speak. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Belial02 Amarr The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:48:00 - [186] Im afraid CCP staff shouldnt be allowed to have any contact with players, let alone discussing in game features. They of course can play their own game as standards chars but must never reveal their identity. GMs are a different matter, for they are needed, but now who can we trust? If one bit of what that (supposedly) ex-ISD guy said is true, i fee sad for the devs, cause they are now flagged as untrustworthy persons and BoB name's have been tarnished once more. If the devs helped establishing an already very comfortable position with advantages that shouldnt even exist, then CCP and BoB didnt play by the rules. Im afraid that, if all of this wasnt forged, some accounts should be deleted. Originally by: Omeega diplomacy is f1, f2, f3, really...
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:51:00 - [187] Originally by: Adaris To OP: Your only addressing the GMs/Gods that are breaking the rules and helping people. By all means they should be removed from GM status and demoted to normal players, but not every other GM who follows the rules of this game (ccp rules too) and does their job by helping out thousands of people per day. Your enitre argument to me is based on all GMs doing this, its not the case. A few bad apples, and you condemn the enitre orchard. Honestly. tired so short answer: read the post on thie tread and you will get alot of reasons WHY we can not have them on the live server alongside with us.. simply it's too risky, and doesn't benefith the game in the long run ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
n0thing Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:55:00 - [188] Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: n0thing Edited by: n0thing on 27/05/2007 22:45:46 Originally by: CrestoftheStars stuff Ok, well lets do a small break down: 1: - Still, in current issue only thing I heard is that actually, a POS was bugged, then in order to fix it the following actions were done. You cant predict if info was gathered, or even was passed. Each corp and each alliance have more or less at least 1 alt in it. Yep, it can be a regular lowest-rank pilot, yet it can be someone established within same party, or just asked someone of higher rank and he couldnt keep his mount closed. Also a very easy explanation. - I really doubt that of about how much? I think around 50-60+ of team members all play as same entity. That wouldnt just make sense from the beginning. - Agree about penalties, but you still cant prevent anyone at all from at least monitoring game process. ---
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 09:55:00 - [189] Originally by: Belenkas Being Developer in another game, I can assure you it is in best DEV intentions to keep the gameplay fair and DEV never constructs tools for himself to use ingame to make him uber-player. That's of course if the developers are looking forward to keeping the game alive and actually earning money for living from it. I am sure EVE is amongst those(despite some bad experiences regarding developer misconduct in the past) Playing the game you create makes it possible to see some unbalanced stuff yourself, since amongst players there always are 1000 opinions. And playing the game you create just makes work be fun. yer sure.. so why arn't they doing anything about it?! they could start by pulling out and stop helping bob+pets just to SHOW that they don't intend to "move" the game by godlike power to one side or another... and they could make sure that people breaking the trust where fired and that THEY actually found out who it was so it didn't have to be the players that accidentally found out that they where cheating.. which just means if you see them do it, they are doing it so much that it stinks, because its very unlucky for a demi-god to be cought by mortals. so to speak.. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Rillian Black Lance NBSI Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 10:03:00 - [190] Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: CrestoftheStars So I say: No they should not be in the game as a player. And I say: YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for. The problem is they are not mutially exclusive, they can't program and improve a game they aren't playing as they will just make unbalanced changes, the facts of life are they need to be able to play and they shouldn't be banned from playing just because they have access to these high level tools. Theres this server called Singularity AKA test server they can use to improve the game they do not have to be on tranquility to do so. Heres the thing... its not if there has been any wrong doing on anyones part its the perception of wrong doing thats causing the problems and the simplist way to fix that and regain the trust of their customers is to not allow it. plain and simple
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.28 10:26:00 - [191] Originally by: MehTheTrader I absolutely disgusted with games with cheats. Cheating is rampant in ccp no doubt, how can it not be with the system. CCP's defense against cheating is they trust their devs, this is omfg rediclous. The funniest/sadest part of this all is they rehired t20. LIKE WHAT IS WRONG WITH CCP!!?? BRAIN FART! Could he actually be replaced? Think about it. ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.28 10:35:00 - [192] No they shouldnt be playing "hidden" charracters on a single server world in huge game shaking player Alliances. Period. It's insanity. Excuse me, but when you have players boasting of (and using) out of game friendships and alternative means of contacting a Dev unavailable to other players, there is a problem. Couple this with the secretiveness of CCP's current ruleset concerning petitions and other issues....it's not hard to see why people quit due to the perception that they are paying to play a rigged game. Every retort I get to this statement seems to be along the lines of "well, its unlikely to ever afffect you!". Maybe true, maybe not. That is so far from the POINT it's silly. The problem is the ease of which the game can be manipulated by ISD/GM's/DEVS who play, in-game with their MSN friends for years...But of course, theres never ANY problem there so sayeth CCP/BoB who always seem to be marching in lockstep on any issue. The bottom line is, even if they are all Mother Theresa's, (which they arent) it's bad buisness and foments mistrust, and everything a certain huge player Alliance does will be tainted by mistrust and unease. Is it a buisness or not? Do they care about their rep or not? Is it someone personal playground or not? Is it a level playing field or not? How is anyone here to KNOW? We dont, we can't know for sure, these problems keep popping up over and over,therefore people like me have said f..k it and killed our sub. shrugs CCP will do what CCP will do. It WON'T involve stricter controlls or forcing employees out of the player game. It's obviously much more important that they play in secret with their friends.
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.05.28 10:44:00 - [193] Who cares? I do not, anything a GM or DEV could do is squat and no big deal. Just that fact that anyone is worried about it is testimony that how great of a RL simulation this is, if we lived in the real EVE universe. People actually started playing this game BECAUSE of the allegations made. I mean how much would you care if some dev gave him self some cool looking purple +42 wizard hat in WoW? LOL Some Gank or even some one exploiting makes 100 times more difference in the game then these so called rumors would. Get real and understand it makes no difference, it is a game, just a game. If it were 1000 times worse then maybe I would agree but it is not. Also if we had several shards like the other MMO's it would be even more pathetic to even care if some GM was playing and what extra goodie they gave them selves. So again people see that and actually start playing this game because of this. A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.28 10:56:00 - [194] The gassing of the Jews didn't affrct most the world so why did they get involved in the war anyway? Oh wait, this is a game not reality. Stick your head in the sand and lie to yourself that the money you pay to CCP is only to play a game and if the CEO ever decides to take the money and run then whatever. Oh sorry, that was also reality. Eh... people with common sense please come help me out! People who say this doesn't affect them have never left 1.0 let alone fought in a major war like the war raging now. You're fighting and the pos is going down then all of a sudden the opposing teams ships become indestructible. Your whole fleet gets wasted. It's a game man, so what that you worked hard for a year for that cap ship? So what that you paid money to a company that will help a side because they can? So what that people who lose over and over again get fed up and leave to play a better game? So what that you're the last person in the game? It's a game!!! The war in Vietnam didn't affect most of the war so why were they against it?
Damares Flying While Intoxicated The Threshold	Posted - 2007.05.28 10:56:00 - [195] it really is a complex matter, you could say, "hey let the dev's make their own corp only for dev's, not allowed to take sov e.t.c but still allowed to play" but that isnt fair on the law abiding dev's, as they dont get to do half the fun stuff in the game, basicaly any solution hurts the dev's who play fair in some way, really all i see as a fair punishment is any dev caught cheating should be banned from playing any account apart from his dev permanently, he shouldnt ever be allowed to play the game again on a normal account, that way the ones who dont cheat dont suffer, the ones who do cheat suffer, and the ones who consider cheating are less likely to cheat. also dev's in game characters should never ever ever answer personal requests from player friends... ever.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:00:00 - [196] OP is a Goon alt and obviously biased. OP is obviously incappable of seperating his in game ire from his "discussion". OP is another one of these combative posters who thinks he can call people stupid if they don't agree with him. This thread fails. If someone can lead an unbiased discussion about this topic, I'm all for it. Goons or BoB need not apply. ------------------- Say What?
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:10:00 - [197] Edited by: The Pointless on 28/05/2007 11:08:58 Originally by: Roy Batty68 OP is a Goon alt and obviously biased. He's an ex-Goon main actually. I check his profile after he sided with Skunk on an arguement a few weeks back. ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Rilder Caldari THC LTD	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:26:00 - [198] Hmm, I may not be in a big alliance but, the dev doing something wrong didn't hurt me any, I didn't lose any money or ships cause some dev did some little thing wrong; nope. So imho I don't care. Besides why are you all witch hunting the Devs why not count how much good they do instead of how much bad they do, everybody makes mistakes, get over it were human. -Rilder
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:35:00 - [199] Originally by: Ryas Nia Yes they should play the game, Yes you should have ISD/GM's in game, No you should not have developer accounts in game. For once, I agree with this terrorist. Delictum 23216 Official forums
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:38:00 - [200] @OP 1 - Nobody in real life should have MSN or any chat-with-your-buddies software at work. 2 - No GM/Dev/Whatever should be allowed to play more than 30 sec to change a skill at work. 3 - DBA shouldn't play the game AT ALL. Even with uncorped characters, etc. 4 - More Ethics in CCP should not be hard to acheive, I don't have a small clue of an existing one (oh yes, I would have one clue for once if only CCP would take actions against their employees if they are at fault - but what I see is, for exemple for T20 : "- This guy faulted. - Oh come on, he's working with us for so long, he made a great job, let's cover him. - Okay. Let's say to all the morons, err, players, that we will hit him internally but we will keep him. - Hey, hey, may I apply ? I'm a deep fan of this game since 3 years with 'insert-a-random-allaince-here'. You can trust me, I'm not a cheater. - Of course you can. Here, take the GM cap and have fun." ----- History is made by whinners Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
Ovno ConSyquence Amarr The Plebians	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:42:00 - [201] I see no problem with the devs playing the game, as long as the new internal affairs department does its job right and catches people if they do cheat, hopefully its very existance will scare the few who might be tempted into not doing it anyway....
Ulii	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:44:00 - [202] Originally by: Ben Nato The gassing of the Jews didn't affrct most the world so why did they get involved in the war anyway? oh, you have some really high thoughts about humanity! to think that is the reason any country got involved in WW2 is... well... noot fit for an adult (or a child older than 10) france got invloved for obvius reasons, england was treatened, us got scared of an united (and agressive) europe, russia got backstabbed, smaller countries was forced, africa belonged to europe, asia got their own agenda. NOTHING had anything to do with the jews! on topic: I think it is good that the devs play. but they have to be careful what they do and it might not be apropirate to have an inportant possision in an alliance or stay too long on the same side of a war, for the risk of inacceptible godly interventions
Vana Gank Gallente Nosferatu Security Foundation	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:45:00 - [203] I say let CCP run the game they feel is the right way to do it. It's their business, and they are the one's loosing cusomters / gains new customer based on their result as a company supporting their game. I think just having a "Player-vote" over this is somewhat immature. -------------------------- Please adjust the map, please. Im not clever enough to figure out which way to fly.
adriaans Amarr Interstellar StarShipWrights Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:48:00 - [204] Yes they should be allowed to play the game --sig-- Knowledge is power!
Alrich	Posted - 2007.05.28 11:48:00 - [205] if they have anything like the empoyment rules we have in sweden, they cant fire an emplyee for such a 'minor' fault. especially since it was a first time offence. (dont think i could be fired if it was my 500'th offence either)
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes The OSS	Posted - 2007.05.28 12:07:00 - [206] Edited by: DrAtomic on 28/05/2007 12:10:19 Yes official CCP staff should be allowed to play the game, heck they should be forced to play it even... :o) ISD should have it's abilities nerfed big time and be restricted to help channel support, first line ticket support and forum moderation with nothing more then the abilities that normal players have (allow gagging in help channel and forum), they should NOT be able to see which characters there are on someones account etc. Aurora staff should be supervised by CCP staff. CCP needs a close look at its command structure (a staff member playing the game should NOT be able to have one of the most productive reporters banned over nothing, he should just petition it like we all do and receive the answer that there is no server sided proof to support his claim like we muppets get). CCP needs to stop lying: "GM's are unable to delete petitions", yet petitions get deleted. All CCP staff and volunteers need to be removed from BoB and their allies (sadly), all t2 stuff in possesion of BoB members that is of the same type of the dreadfull t2 bpo's needs to be removed (they had the advantage of it, now suffer a disadvantage from it, yes it will hurt innocent players, but innocent players have been killed by cheated stuff long enough). Also POS bowling needs to be stopped, it's not within the game's spirit and reeks of cheating especially when you suddenly allow it and BoB is doing it. CCP needs to restore faith with the community and needs drastic measures to do so. Give BoB the opportunity to proof their worth without any CCP staff support like us normal players. Edit: for the record I 100% believe Sharkbait was just doing his job, he's one of the most dedicated Devs out there often working in his sparetime to solve issues in the live game. As far as I'm concerned the real issues are deleted petitions (which internal afairs said was impossible) and the polaris incident. ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed. My Top 10 List
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.28 12:21:00 - [207] Originally by: Ulii Originally by: Ben Nato The gassing of the Jews didn't affrct most the world so why did they get involved in the war anyway? oh, you have some really high thoughts about humanity! to think that is the reason any country got involved in WW2 is... well... noot fit for an adult (or a child older than 10) france got invloved for obvius reasons, england was treatened, us got scared of an united (and agressive) europe, russia got backstabbed, smaller countries was forced, africa belonged to europe, asia got their own agenda. NOTHING had anything to do with the jews! on topic: I think it is good that the devs play. but they have to be careful what they do and it might not be apropirate to have an inportant possision in an alliance or stay too long on the same side of a war, for the risk of inacceptible godly interventions And what about all the countries who weren't 'backstabbed' but got involved because they did it out of principle? And that's what it's about, principle. If you have no principle then it doesn't affect you. But now let's get back to EVE shall we? ISK farmers, they don't affect either of us so why would we care? They inflate the economy and basically destroy it, but it's a game. So who cares? Who cares that you keep rowing upstream and fighting a losing battle? It's only a game. People who think that lack morals and principles because who cares what goes on anywhere? It doesn't affect you and this is why CCP has been able to get away with whatever it is that they want.
Ulii	Posted - 2007.05.28 12:45:00 - [208] Originally by: Ben Nato And what about all the countries who weren't 'backstabbed' but got involved because they did it out of principle? And that's what it's about, principle. If you have no principle then it doesn't affect you. please name those who did join because of principles, it would give me back some faith in the human race. and why aren't any of those interrested in getting involved in the darfur crisis, wich is probably the greatest humanitarian catastrophe at the moment Originally by: Ben Nato But now let's get back to EVE shall we? ISK farmers, they don't affect either of us so why would we care? They inflate the economy and basically destroy it, but it's a game. So who cares? Who cares that you keep rowing upstream and fighting a losing battle? It's only a game. People who think that lack morals and principles because who cares what goes on anywhere? It doesn't affect you and this is why CCP has been able to get away with whatever it is that they want. ccp must make a good display that they dont favor BOB and somehow make a publish punishment for all involved (even if it means givving them an extra large cristmas present this year. but dont let it leak out)
Kvaell Minmatar Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.28 12:53:00 - [209] The problem is that with devs and gms actively palying the game, some players are bound to recieve information or pointers not ment for public. This is an egde towards other players no matter how you look at it. I doubt they cheat as it would be folly and if they do, well, see forward to fewer subscribers. Also have a "direct line" to some people from "the inside" is not necessarily bad but again getting your bugs handled faster than others is an advantage. That said I doubt dev+gm support is the reason why some alliances are more succesful than others. Teamwork and high activity is key in that. But for gm and dev playing the game to get a better understanding for the game, shouldn't they be scattered al over the universe? Some issues are very region specific. Honestly I don't know where they are, besides of all whiners (some BoB even) says they are pretty concentrated.
Probeltis Meridian Dynamics FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 13:00:00 - [210] Yes and no. Yes we should keep them in game. If they don't play it, they can't improve it. but No, they should not be able to play in any of the top 15 alliances. Here's why: In a game like EVE there is more than just your skills and the ability to blow stuff up. While the GM's and Devs probably play as a character that has no more in game power than you or I, they bring with them a pre-existing knowledge of other alliance assets, tactics, positions, etc. that they gain through preforming their dev/GM duties. That is, they bring intelligence into the alliances/corps they are playing with. In a game such as Eve, intelligence can be more valuable than the ability to do '/heal all 0' or whatever people think they would do. And before I get flamed, No, I don't think the Dev/GM's would intentionally give out intel on another alliance. It's not the intentional information but the occasional "lets go here", instead of where everyone wants to go at the time. I love Eve and I love playing, and I hope the GM's/Devs love playing as much as I do. I want to play with devs, I would love to learn from and fly with a dev/gm if I ever get the chance, but they have to stay out of the top alliances/coalitions due to ingame politics. Just my $0.02. ------------------- blah blah blah, something about my views are mine not my alliance/corp, blah blah blah "There is no such thing as reality, There's only perception" --Don't know, I made it
Wylker Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 13:42:00 - [211] Edited by: Wylker on 28/05/2007 13:41:40 Look mom! I'm WAY too important to post in the 160 page thread that the dev team has open, so imha start my own thrad!!!! IM TYPIN ON TA INTARWEBS! Oh, I didn't read your entire post, I AM in fact flaming, but I posted with my main!
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 13:44:00 - [212] If they don't play their own game, how can they improve it or make decisions on petitions? Seriously, think what you are saying. Yes they should, and MUST have in-game characters, otherwise they are useless. The conflict of interests is another issue, and the solution here is strict auditing/monitoring and TRANSPARENCY of investigations, should they be brought forward == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Urgomar Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.05.28 13:54:00 - [213] Originally by: CrestoftheStars when you pay for a product you are right to say "i do not which that you do something that will advantually lead to a misuse. as i have pointed out (and this is how they actually do it in most mmo's) You're wrong, the right you have is not to pay for that game. Paying for it doesnt allow you to change it as you like ! Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.28 14:02:00 - [214] Originally by: Wylker Edited by: Wylker on 28/05/2007 13:41:40 Look mom! I like these posts, here's where i stopped reading, saved me time Lost it with replying
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 14:08:00 - [215] with the allegations turning up false left right and center they should start banning all the drama queens for harassment
Elspeth Vigneron Caldari Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.05.28 14:09:00 - [216] Allowed in game? I'm at the point I'm not sure that they should even be allowed to investigate allegations of their misconduct. Now they're saying "trust us, we have the petition, but we can't disclose it because it's private. Yet the EULA (which has two components to privacy, one IN-GAME, the other between you as a REAL PERSON and CCP) that seems to say they very well CAN disclose the alleged petition: Quote: 8. PRIVACY AND CONFIDENTIALITY A. Communications Except for certain information in your Account (discussed below), all transmissions by you to the System are not private. What they're saying, except for what's in Section B., NOTHING IS PRIVATE. Quote: You acknowledge and agree that you have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms. CCP representatives may monitor communications made by or received from you. You should not provide private information to any other player in the Game. CCP shall not be responsible for the consequences of any such disclosure by you. In short, private communications (such as petitions) and chat windows, such as local, are NOT PRIVATE. Even if you think they are. Quote: You may encounter and converse with people who are rude, offensive, belligerent, and who may use indecent, obscene, and/or threatening or harassing language while playing the Game. You may report any instances of such behavior to CCP. CCP will investigate and take such measures as CCP, in its sole judgment, determines are reasonable under the circumstances. CCP does not guarantee that you will not encounter behavior of others that you may view as insulting, demeaning, offensive, threatening or harassing. You assume all risk associated with playing the Game, and CCP assumes no responsibility for the conduct of any other players, and shall not be liable to you or any other person for their conduct. Not relevant, but provided because I'm providing the entire section of the EULA. Quote: B. Personal Information CCP does not guarantee that personal information transmitted to the System, including without limitation information in your Account, will not be disclosed to third parties. While CCP's aim is to keep your personal information confidential and CCP employs security measures to protect the System, third parties may unlawfully intercept transmissions or private communications, or access data within the System. Additionally, CCP may (and you hereby expressly authorize CCP to) disclose information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials, as CCP, in its sole discretion, deems necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible crimes or to respond to judicial, regulatory, agency or similar inquiries. CCP may monitor usage of the System to gather statistical information that it may disclose to third parties. CCP may also contact you using the information you provided to, for example, provide technical support, respond to user inquiries, transmit questionnaires and offer products and services. You may also verify and update your Account information by logging into your Account through the account management page at https://secure.eve-online.com/login.asp. Here we're talking about you, as a human being, and how you have the right of privacy for your REAL LIFE personal information. Such as your credit card. Your e-mail. That sort of stuff. It also says they may use your personal information to contact you regarding technical support issues. Which makes sense if you can't even log-on to view the petition system. They can also use your personal information to sell you goods and services. It also says that they'll turn your information over to law enforcement if necessary. Phoenix Logistics Industries
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 14:10:00 - [217] learn to read wad, they didn't say it was private because of the eula, they said it was private because they have standards
Bienurdau Hywoaf Minmatar Matari Holo News Network	Posted - 2007.05.28 14:19:00 - [218] No It creates a conflict of interest whether such is intended or not. Most games this is handled by not allowing GMs to have a character on the server they are adjucating. However EVE being a single shard does not afford this luxury. They could create an internal test server to meet their needs of testing game mechanics. I'd be surprised if they didn't have one already. They could also use test center for this purpose. Another option might be to split the server into two. It is far easier to guard against perceived conflicts of interest if you have more than one server. Idea: Treaties Idea: Jump Rigs
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.28 15:44:00 - [219] They already have a test server.
Relaria Hossin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.28 16:41:00 - [220] If the staff were left to run the NPC corporations then any misconduct they participate in would have minimal effect on the paying players. Other then that, the only other solution would be to limit them to the test server. NO OTHER GAME allows GMs to be GMs on the server they play on as regular players. Unfortunately EVE has a single shard. WHY does CCP not see the problem?
CaptainGordon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.28 16:49:00 - [221] In the light of the recent events - absolutely not.
ElCholo Minmatar FarCry Inc Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:53:00 - [222] No. No to devs/gms etc being a part of any major faction. No to devs/gms having any impact on server politics of any kind. No to devs/gms having any out of game contact (read anything that can bypass chat/mail logs etc), MSN (and others like it) are clearly back channel communication that bypass any audit trails.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 17:59:00 - [223] oh ya thats right Dev's arent allow to make friends Dev's arent allow to have fun Dev's arent allowed to enjoy their work Dev's arent allowed to answer their phone Players are allowed to make any claim they want regardless of having nothing but here say Players are allowed to whine about everything Players who get banned were obviously conspired against and must raise forum drama Players own the game, the devs are our slaves /sarcasm
Relaria Hossin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:03:00 - [224] Edited by: Relaria Hossin on 28/05/2007 18:02:46 The chatter that goes on in the circles of GMs and developers from other MMOGs is very telling. The way CCP handles allowing staff to have player accounts on their single server is totally different from the standard practice of how these games are run. They are after all just human. We are all human. Humans will play favorites, don't lie, you are human too and you know it is true even if you want to lie about it.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:05:00 - [225] Originally by: The Pointless Originally by: MehTheTrader I absolutely disgusted with games with cheats. Cheating is rampant in ccp no doubt, how can it not be with the system. CCP's defense against cheating is they trust their devs, this is omfg rediclous. The funniest/sadest part of this all is they rehired t20. LIKE WHAT IS WRONG WITH CCP!!?? BRAIN FART! Could he actually be replaced? Think about it. of course he could! not like it's hard. even if he couldn't it would still be tuf luck, because he shouldn't be there. if a police officer breaks the law that's IT no matter how importent he is he can never do anything within the area of law again, that's the consequence of misused trust. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:06:00 - [226] says a goon, which if we type cast, makes you a cheater yourself
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:15:00 - [227] problem is if some dev did that and THEN got out to fight with a clan... the game would die so quickly it would still be spinning in it's grave! the most importent thing in a mmo is that EVERY ONE is equel from start of and no one gets something easyer then others do. same ruleset for all, this is what motivates people to come to a game, and not just go out and do something IRL, since RL is so corrupt, and we like beeing somewhere where mechanics SHOULD have made sure that there couldn't be this corruption that gives a unfair advantage to some people over others... this game will get seriusly hurt by incidents like this, and it will aventually crumbel if nothing is done, it's normal logic that as soon as light begins to shine on things like this last incident, the whole pyramid starts to collaps, and secrifices most be made to keep it standing and to rebuilt it Originally by: FarScape III Edited by: FarScape III on 28/05/2007 10:46:07 Who cares? I do not, anything a GM or DEV could do is squat and no big deal. Just that fact that anyone is worried about it is testimony that how great of a RL simulation this is, if we lived in the real EVE universe. People actually started playing this game BECAUSE of the allegations made. I mean how much would you care if some dev gave him self some cool looking purple +42 wizard hat in WoW? LOL Some Gank or even some one exploiting makes 100 times more difference in the game then these so called rumors would. Get real and understand it makes no difference, it is a game, just a game. If it were 1000 times worse then maybe I would agree but it is not. Also if we had several shards like the other MMO's it would be even more pathetic to even care if some GM was playing and what extra goodie they gave them selves. So again people see that and actually start playing this game because of this. P.S. And then I here some player say they got billions and they are quiting because of this? They abviously were not effect. lol. If they lost billions then maybe lol. Ganks do that kind of dammage sometimes, leave because of that? Most would say still no. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:18:00 - [228] "incidents" that so far have proven to be nonexistant? Merely player drivel started to cause trouble?
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:20:00 - [229] when a player **s up the worse thing that can happend is that he steals from a corp/alliance something like that. when some one with godlike power s up, it turns the outcome of the biggest wars, of the player okonomi, and most importent it damage the trust in ccp as a company. they can have all those your saying, but NOT on the account of the company of which they are paid to work for. it's actually really easy, as the former blizzard employee said, there system was VERY clear for what you can and what you can't do, why was it a problem to have the same in eve? well it was and now its time for consequence for the stupidity to regain the trust that they lost Originally by:** Tortun Nahme oh ya thats right Dev's arent allow to make friends Dev's arent allow to have fun Dev's arent allowed to enjoy their work Dev's arent allowed to answer their phone Players are allowed to make any claim they want regardless of having nothing but here say Players are allowed to whine about everything Players who get banned were obviously conspired against and must raise forum drama Players own the game, the devs are our slaves /sarcasm ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:22:00 - [230] and yet none of that has happened
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:24:00 - [231] Originally by: Tortun Nahme says a goon, which if we type cast, makes you a cheater yourself ow i gues my vote doesn't count then? and which means that i can not be the one taking hold of the problem?! (besides for the info i traded this char, i took it over when it joined DVII, else i would have no problems of you calling me a cheater if i have had the knowledge of cheating without reporting it) ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:26:00 - [232] Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: Tortun Nahme says a goon, which if we type cast, makes you a cheater yourself ow i gues my vote doesn't count then? and which means that i can not be the one taking hold of the problem?! (besides for the info i traded this char, i took it over when it joined DVII, else i would have no problems of you calling me a cheater if i have had the knowledge of cheating without reporting it) actually I was refering to the goon above you, but if you are a goon too then yes
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:27:00 - [233] Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 28/05/2007 18:26:28 Originally by: Tortun Nahme and yet none of that has happened delutioned peoples are impossible to argue with.. like trying to argue for gods existens "well you just gotta have faith.and a big smile". that's not a argue that have any logic to it. they have been cought before, and they have been cought again "maybe" this time not with there hands full of cookies but enough to start a major discussion and enough to be own in other games too. this should be more then enough to let people know that this is bad for the company, ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:28:00 - [234] Tortun, don't waste your breath, the OP and others are unwilling to listen to reason. Goons are determined to stir up trouble and will do so for as long as they keep losing in-game. The thread is pointless because CCP will continue to play the game, something most of the player base supports.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:30:00 - [235] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: Tortun Nahme says a goon, which if we type cast, makes you a cheater yourself ow i gues my vote doesn't count then? and which means that i can not be the one taking hold of the problem?! (besides for the info i traded this char, i took it over when it joined DVII, else i would have no problems of you calling me a cheater if i have had the knowledge of cheating without reporting it) actually I was refering to the goon above you, but if you are a goon too then yes i see it as a GOOD thing that people involved have the guts to actually do something about the corruption instead of just saying "ow well i was in a alliance that was a part of it so i better not try to solve the problem, come on BoB lets hold hands and keep it up, yup. but i suspect that you like the idea of just letting it "slip" and "it's no biggi" better right?... you should think by know people know how much these thing can hurt a game when not taken seriusly... ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:32:00 - [236] So you support the interference of CCPs services by bringing the forums down, an EULA violation? Goons are ruining this game, not CCP.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:33:00 - [237] Originally by: CrestoftheStars Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 28/05/2007 18:26:28 Originally by: Tortun Nahme and yet none of that has happened delutioned peoples are impossible to argue with.. like trying to argue for gods existens "well you just gotta have faith.and a big smile". that's not a argue that have any logic to it. they have been cought before, and they have been cought again "maybe" this time not with there hands full of cookies but enough to start a major discussion and enough to be own in other games too. this should be more then enough to let people know that this is bad for the company, "delusioned"? Lets see, people "accused" ccp of cheating, of the 4 allegations 2 have been shot down as unwarrented, and the other two are laughable to begin with, a PREVIOUS incident of ONE member misuing power does not translate to immediate guilt The fact that the people MAKING the accusation are questionable at BEST leads me to the conclusion that I'd rather not be one of the squealing sheep screaming murder. he rest of your post made no sense so I am just going to assume english isn't your first language and leave it at that
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:33:00 - [238] Originally by: Krugerrand Tortun, don't waste your breath, the OP and others are unwilling to listen to reason. Goons are determined to stir up trouble and will do so for as long as they keep losing in-game. The thread is pointless because CCP will continue to play the game, something most of the player base supports. you mean something that the players that KNOWS the ccp and gets goodies from them have supported.. who is it thats not listening to reason?! us that tryis to show you what and WHY any other mmo are doing it as they are, even a former employee from the biggest mmo in the world are saying that the way it is done in eve is crazy. or you guys which argue is "well it doesn't hurt any one... too much"... emm yer right. so i can see your point, we are the ones that will not listen to reason lol... ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:35:00 - [239] Originally by: Tortun Nahme "delusioned"? Lets see, people "accused" ccp of cheating, of the 4 allegations 2 have been shot down as unwarrented, and the other two are laughable to begin with, a PREVIOUS incident of ONE member misuing power does not translate to immediate guilt The fact that the people MAKING the accusation are questionable at BEST leads me to the conclusion that I'd rather not be one of the squealing sheep screaming murder. he rest of your post made no sense so I am just going to assume english isn't your first language and leave it at that Well I'm glad someone put it better than I ever could. ----------------------------------------------- "And I scream in a thousand voices!"
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:36:00 - [240] Edited by: Plutoinum on 28/05/2007 18:36:11 Originally by: CrestoftheStars as you said it would be awesome for the staff... but i kind of miss the part where it benefith the gamers?! which this is about. this is about the staff not beeing able to become a problem for the gamers.. I think it benefits the players, if devs play the game (in a correct way ofc). As long as they play the game, they are able to understand the issues of the players, know how the game is played by the players. The are directly involved in what's going on, experience problems themselves, see what problems other players have, who play with them, what they enjoy and what not. As long as they play themselves, the are also less likely to totally screw up the game by stupid changes. I remember comments of unsatisfied customers like: 'Do you guys even play your game ?' all to well. And I doubt that an extra dev-server would solve it. It's just not the same. It's like trying to understand current capital warfare, blobs or how a newbie experiences the game by playing on the testserver. Doesn't work. And if they stop playing the game, EVE might really become WoW in space to make money. As long as they play they are maybe afraid to ruin their game.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:37:00 - [241] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: CrestoftheStars Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 28/05/2007 18:26:28 Originally by: Tortun Nahme and yet none of that has happened delutioned peoples are impossible to argue with.. like trying to argue for gods existens "well you just gotta have faith.and a big smile". that's not a argue that have any logic to it. they have been cought before, and they have been cought again "maybe" this time not with there hands full of cookies but enough to start a major discussion and enough to be own in other games too. this should be more then enough to let people know that this is bad for the company, "delusioned"? Lets see, people "accused" ccp of cheating, of the 4 allegations 2 have been shot down as unwarrented, and the other two are laughable to begin with, a PREVIOUS incident of ONE member misuing power does not translate to immediate guilt The fact that the people MAKING the accusation are questionable at BEST leads me to the conclusion that I'd rather not be one of the squealing sheep screaming murder. he rest of your post made no sense so I am just going to assume english isn't your first language and leave it at that if you have ANY insight of law you will know how EXSTREMELY hard it is to get some one that sits in the middle of the TOP of the same system which shall judge them, to actually get convicted... you know how many people done **** and got away with it because of "lack of evidence" ?! the problem is not to see that they done it, but how much they have done and here is the tricky part because the once doing it, is the once that should monitor it, yer get them to try to get themselve convicted yup go for it;) hehe peace out, and i am done argueing with you, since you have nothing put "you have to trust in the lord!! the world is flat because we say so!" ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:42:00 - [242] eve have the most advanced test server in the world of mmo so DROP that bullS*. ever other mmo can handle it YER THEY PLAY with cherecter at the same server that there gm/dev chars are on, but they just have VERY strict rules and policy of how it is done. dev/gm's should not be playing along side with us as players, not with the corrent system that is at hand. stay at the test server that is what it is there for Originally by:** Plutoinum Edited by: Plutoinum on 28/05/2007 18:36:11 Originally by: CrestoftheStars as you said it would be awesome for the staff... but i kind of miss the part where it benefith the gamers?! which this is about. this is about the staff not beeing able to become a problem for the gamers.. I think it benefits the players, if devs play the game (in a correct way ofc). As long as they play the game, they are able to understand the issues of the players, know how the game is played by the players. The are directly involved in what's going on, experience problems themselves, see what problems other players have, who play with them, what they enjoy and what not. As long as they play themselves, the are also less likely to totally screw up the game by stupid changes. I remember comments of unsatisfied customers like: 'Do you guys even play your game ?' all to well. And I doubt that an extra dev-server would solve it. It's just not the same. It's like trying to understand current capital warfare, blobs or how a newbie experiences the game by playing on the testserver. Doesn't work. And if they stop playing the game, EVE might really become WoW in space to make money. As long as they play they are maybe afraid to ruin their game. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Mic Dirt	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:55:00 - [243] Edited by: Mic Dirt on 28/05/2007 18:54:48 this has always been a sore point with me. I think is rediculous that the devs should involve themselves in a player driven game such as eve. We know about some abuses in the past, but most certainly don't know the full scope of how dev/gm/isd involvement has corrupted this game over the years. We have a test server with all the functionality of the main server... why can't they stay there? As I doubt this will ever happen, I would settle for them at least not being allowed in player corporations. Do the Devs realize they are polluting the intergrity of their own game?
Eralus	Posted - 2007.05.28 18:58:00 - [244] Threads like this prove that people who work for the company running the game can't be allowed to play the game. Even if they are ALL honest ALL of the time, people will still think something illegitimate is happening, and that impacts your ability to sell subscriptions. And even if all devs are all honest all of the time, they still have access to information that regular players do not - like how the code works. These things cause some people who would subscribe to not subscribe. Making it a bad BUSINESS decision. And there is no benefit to devs playing. Any 'perspective' the devs have from playing can be obtained from watching other players play, listening to player feedback, and playing on the test server. So you have to ask yourself, if it's a bad business decision, and there's no benefit TO THE GAME of doing it, but CCP allows it anyway, why do they allow devs to play? The only answer I can come up with is it is more important for the people running the game to play the game than it is for the game to run well. And that should tell you something about the priorities of the people running the game. Fortunately for me, I don't PvP. I play EVE recreationally, so it's no different to me than playing a single-player game, and whether devs play or not doesn't impact me at all. But I'm not going to participate in serious PvP until this dev issue is addressed. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear.
Eralus	Posted - 2007.05.28 19:00:00 - [245] Also, if CCP insists on letting devs play, some sa***uards need to be put into place if they have not been already: - Block client access to Tranquility from the CCP offices. - Block access to development/server systems from outside CCP offices. Basically, nobody should be able to log into their development account and their player account without getting in the car and driving to work/home and back. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.28 19:09:00 - [246] CCP already has these in place: - Do not disclose that you are a GM/Dev/ISD etc (funnily enough some of the accusers actually continue to try to prove which devs are certain players, how is that fair?). - Nearly everything a dev account does is logged, their regular player accounts do not need to be logged since they cannot access development tools from them - There is an investigation team setup to deal with allegations of abuse of power. Of the "scandals" all of them have been brought to light by players and CCP encourages people to petition any such possible events, where they will actively investiagte. This is good as it acts as a further control as long as you follow the proper procedure. Of these Scandals: - GM spawning items for an alt char, he was discovered by FIX/BoB (you know the ones who only cheat ) and was dismissed from his job. - T20 incident - CCP came out with the truth and T20 had been reprimanded. - The recent allegations have either been discredited or have no effect whatsoever on in game player controlled events.
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.05.28 19:13:00 - [247] For what it's worth, here's my take on it. CCP staff should not partake in the game at senior alliance or corp level. CCP staff's game accounts should be just standard accounts. CCP staff should in no way communicate the fact that they are staff when playing the game. CCP staff should certainly not be on particularly friendly terms with any Eve players. (Tough maybe? It just goes with the territory. Any act, even if not underhand, could be made to look bad. For example you legitimately win a T2 BPO and are friends with a Dev. It's going to look dodgy isn't it?) "Super User" Dev accounts must have every action strictly audited. The audit server should be read only to all CCP staff, except the CEO or a senior dev who is absolutely beyond reproach. Reasons for actions taken by "Super User" accounts should be made in advance in a Change Control type system, so anyone caught with their hands in the cookie jar that don't have an entry in the control system will be subject to disciplinary action. CCP really must take a more professional line on this. ------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook -------------------------------------
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 19:38:00 - [248] Originally by: Relaria Hossin Even EA staff makes fun of CCP for this. Seriously. EA. Who is next, Sony? Yeah cause we really want ccp taking developement tips from EA or sony oh a "former" blizzard employee comments, wow, so if he is so smart why is he a "former" employee again?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.28 19:43:00 - [249] I vastly prefer devs playing their game including the occasional fiasco, rather than the perpetual fiasco that is a game that is NOT played by its devs anymore. Been there played that. No thanks. Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God X-PACT	Posted - 2007.05.28 19:46:00 - [250] No. "I am matter... I am anti-matter... I can see your past... I can see your future... I consume time... And I will consume you!" -Culex (SMRPG)
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.28 20:06:00 - [251] Originally by: Leandro Salazar I vastly prefer devs playing their game including the occasional fiasco, rather than the perpetual fiasco that is a game that is NOT played by its devs anymore. Been there played that. No thanks. Did SWG have developer players? If not, thats a clear example of why devs should be allowed in game.
Alerion Acquire	Posted - 2007.05.28 20:23:00 - [252] If they could be trusted to not get involved in the major alliances and use good judgement to not reveal themselves I would say it would be a benefit for them to play and see the game from the inside. Apparently they have a problem with this and CCP should impose limits on how their staff interacts with the paying customers. I'd say NO - they cant play and if they are going to play they should use very limited characters (maybe max 5 mil sp or something). If they want to test out the more skillpoint heavy stuff - welcome to the testserver. And if staff makes "friends" inside the game they should be very careful NEVER to tell them that they are CCP staff so that the player (for instance Orange Species) are not tempted to use this friendship to their advantage. And they should downplay their role and involvement in any corporation they join.
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.05.28 20:23:00 - [253] Edited by: Anehra on 28/05/2007 20:23:47 Edited by: Anehra on 28/05/2007 20:22:59 In almost every game devs and gm's have non-administrative ("normal") characters/accounts. I had it myself during my time as GM (one "gm-account", one "normal" and one "rp-account" to use to create special characters for special events). The difference during my time as GM compared with EVE was that we stricly wern't allowed to have any kind of contact with players apart from the obvious public resources; forums and our gm-mails (which could be read by all devs). And of course we could not use command with our normal characters to spawn creatures, edit stats, teleport around, etc. YES they should be able to play the game. NO they should not interfer/have contacts with players in any other fashion than exactly the same as everyone else has. They have to stay secret (even to eachother) to be efficient and be able to actually stay neutral. You know, as GM with a secret player I saw how some players were sucking up to me while on one character - and treating me like crap on the other. Still I treated them as everyone else with my GM-character as I knew my job and I couldn't have favourites/show dislike to certain people. GMs - and even worse, devs - in EVE, doesn't stick to the basic rules more or less every other MMO follows. To make a distinction between their characters, and not to contact players as gm/dev outside of the game. That's just sickening and show the lack of professionalism in this game. It's embarrassing. That is why I say YES and NO at the same time. Make the distinction. All current official characters as well as their "anonymous" characters should be deleted and new characters made, so they can stay neutral and start over.
Starfinder Firing Squad Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 20:27:00 - [254] I vote no CCP employees on the same server as the paying customers. That is how CCP got in this currentmess. :(
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.28 20:38:00 - [255] Its okay with me as long as they all join the same corp and thus be easily distinguishable =P Originally by: Marquis Dean Yeah I know. But I was in the shower.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.05.28 20:38:00 - [256] Its okay with me as long as they all join the same corp and thus be easily distinguishable =P Originally by: Marquis Dean Yeah I know. But I was in the shower.
Ronaldod Gallente The Furtive	Posted - 2007.05.28 21:51:00 - [257] To have ccp employees playing this game is like to give a kid a cookie jar and say you may open the jar but not eat the cookies. How long will that last. So mine opinion is bad for the ccp staff is no ccp member should be allowed to play the game in a player runned alliance. They can run their own alliance. Wooh heck i would like to defeat the dev/gm's. It is even a bigger competiotion to make them defend their own region. That would be fun. But they are not allowed to go attack things outside that region or expand it. my 2 cents
Ira Theos	Posted - 2007.05.28 22:26:00 - [258] The value of CCP personnel playing Eve is obvious for purposes of programming, quality checking, and general planning and game design. Unfortunately the weakness of human judgement can lead to corruption WHERE OPPORTUNITY PRESENTS ITSELF. So why not remove the opportunity? First, make a new rule. NO CCP PERSONNEL IN EITHER CORPS OR ALLIANCES. THEN: Why not divide CCP pilots into CCP Corps. Let them fight each other in Eve. If they need bigger fleets for testing they could pay bounties to "hired guns" invited from the customer pilot populace (call them EVENT MISSIONS). Perhaps CCP could even reimburse all losses for these "events" that they throw for program testing leaving the participants positively "paid" or offer high bounties offset by risk of loss of the ships they risk. Just make sure that entry to these events is open to ALL and if there are too many volunteers, then establish a volunteer waiting list or some other random method of invite (lottery seems to be popular, LOL). Make sure that these CCP Corps can fight with the "big" ships in hi sec empire space so that the new players of Eve will get to see some of this "fleet" action and show them what they are missing by staying in empire. Just make sure that these "staged" fights don't affect either the real politics or assets in Eve (other than possibly leaving some nice wreckage for the new pilots to salvage after it is over). RESULT? EVERYBODY WINS! CCP GETS INGAME PLAY FOR WHATEVER REASON.... THEY DONT INTERFERE IN THE GAME.... AND NEW PILOTS SEE WHY THEY SHOULD GET THEIR ASSETS ZERO AS FAST AS THEY CAN. Thoughts? Opinions?
Jinmie	Posted - 2007.05.28 22:36:00 - [259] Remove dev accounts and devs playing favorites on TQ. CCP have devs in the top 10 alliances in the game? Get them out!
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.28 22:42:00 - [260] Originally by: Bistot Kid For what it's worth, here's my take on it. CCP staff should not partake in the game at senior alliance or corp level. CCP staff's game accounts should be just standard accounts. CCP staff should in no way communicate the fact that they are staff when playing the game. CCP staff should certainly not be on particularly friendly terms with any Eve players. (Tough maybe? It just goes with the territory. Any act, even if not underhand, could be made to look bad. For example you legitimately win a T2 BPO and are friends with a Dev. It's going to look dodgy isn't it?) "Super User" Dev accounts must have every action strictly audited. The audit server should be read only to all CCP staff, except the CEO or a senior dev who is absolutely beyond reproach. Reasons for actions taken by "Super User" accounts should be made in advance in a Change Control type system, so anyone caught with their hands in the cookie jar that don't have an entry in the control system will be subject to disciplinary action. CCP really must take a more professional line on this. Every single one of the things you mentioned is alreayd in place, except the "no friends" stuff. When The Enslaver got hired as a GM, he stepped down from LV leadership and gave his titan to Chowdown. ------------------------- Sigs are for noobs.
laotse Firing Squad Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.28 23:42:00 - [261] why a own space they fly all in bob atm wat,s the problem http://80.126.192.128:8888/tfd/uploads/1121735338/gallery_11_8_1124480365.jpg Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes
Nukleanis Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.05.28 23:45:00 - [262] Should those that made the game be allowed to play it? As long as they play on an equal playing field, I don't see why not. But do those affiliated with ISD / CCP sign specific documents in order to allow them to play the game? And if so, can we see them to ensure that they are adhering to these terms? If we can see these documents and make allegations, then any allegations would be more specific, as the community would have set standards to expect from CCP employees, instead of the morality of varying situations which we do so love to debate on the forums.
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.05.28 23:45:00 - [263] as we know devs are also in d2 and goonfleet ( dunno bout the RA being mostly russian speakers) but i would assume they can learn russian and get in there as well
Relaria Hossin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.29 00:05:00 - [264] When the t20 thing happened we had Kug audit us for CCP staff. He found none. So Goonfleet is either CCP free or they are completely quiet about who they are and take steps to cover it up, which is how it should be.
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.29 00:28:00 - [265] Originally by: Relaria Hossin When the t20 thing happened we had Kug audit us for CCP staff. He found none. So Goonfleet is either CCP free or they are completely quiet about who they are and take steps to cover it up, which is how it should be. Oh, right because Kugutsamen is not biased in any way whatsoever. It's blatantly obvious that Kugutsamen is out to discredit CCP. He's probably uncovered other CCP staff that's not related to BoB in any way whatsoever, he just hasn't chosen to reveal them. There's probably CCP staff in Goonfleet, but you don't know.. why? Because they're legit, honest players, who do they're best to keep they're identity a secret. As well they should. ------------------------- Sigs are for noobs.
Kur'Dekaija Atomic Heroes The OSS	Posted - 2007.05.29 00:30:00 - [266] My little opinion, YES devs should play the game. Only reason EVE is so GREAT is cuz the devs play it, they love it and want to make it even greater. I bet most of the devs/GMs etc etc have normal "paying" accounts, they just play the game like everybody else, they should be allowed to do that. We just gotta trust them not to use their dev accounts/programs (what ever they use) in favor of their "paying" account. I mean their has only been 1 big confirmed miss use of that power in 4 years. And imo it had no noticeable effect on EVE. So I say stop with all that "rable rable rable" **** and keep playing the game. PS. EVE belongs to CCP, they can do whatever they like with it, even if we pay for it we cant tell them what to do. Their have been many changes ingame that I liked and hated, even for the hated things I still play the game and I intend to be the last dude to chancel his account if EVE ever closed. No Im not a BOB fanboy, I didnt like them on the forums before the big war and I have old hate towards 1 of their corp.
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.05.29 00:54:00 - [267] Originally by: Kur'Dekaija My little opinion, YES devs should play the game. Only reason EVE is so GREAT is cuz the devs play it, they love it and want to make it even greater. I bet most of the devs/GMs etc etc have normal "paying" accounts, they just play the game like everybody else, they should be allowed to do that. We just gotta trust them not to use their dev accounts/programs (what ever they use) in favor of their "paying" account. I mean their has only been 1 big confirmed miss use of that power in 4 years. And imo it had no noticeable effect on EVE. So I say stop with all that "rable rable rable" **** and keep playing the game. PS. EVE belongs to CCP, they can do whatever they like with it, even if we pay for it we cant tell them what to do. Their have been many changes ingame that I liked and hated, even for the hated things I still play the game and I intend to be the last dude to chancel his account if EVE ever closed. No Im not a BOB fanboy, I didnt like them on the forums before the big war and I have old hate towards 1 of their corp. Then you could as well play another game as in 99% of the MMOs I know of, the devs and the GM's (not the same thing, mind you) play the game themselves. Usually they have several accounts, some with edited characters/gear, others that isn't ("normal" accounts/players). This game is great because players are in charge, not a game system. We control the economy, we control the politics, we can cross-race unlike most games where if you chose a wizard you are a wizard and can't use plate armor. In EVE you can train any race, weapon, etc. It's all up to you. ..or so we thought. If devs are altering things by spawning/giving out bpos, or joining enemy corps to do some scouting in hostile territory, or if they keep certain characters in certain alliances on msn, they are biased and are altering stuff that we thought we did. Stuff that should've been the very reason we play EVE, right? Yes they should play the game. Just like devs/GM's in most games. No they shouldn't be so damn stupid and unprofessional that they can't keep their hands out of the cookie jar. No they shouldn't be so stupid that they try don't clean up after themselves (fire t20 already, you have no credibility, any other company would've done it). Unless they solve the t20 story they will never be trusted by players, simple. Unless they remove all their dev- and GM-characters, as well as their "normal" characters (as most likely players know their 'other' characters as well) and start over 'fresh' they have no credibility. It's that simple. Show that you are professionals. You do realise that people that pay your money, that probably pays your bills, will at least want some kind of customer service and not have the feeling of being screwed over? EVE is the best MMO out there, with the worst customer relation service. Yes they should play. Someone should just teach them a thing or three.
Gilbert Drillerson DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.29 00:55:00 - [268] No, after all the incidents of impropriety comitted by CCP employees, CCP should ban all CCP staff from the game. I have no doubt it will hurt the game, but tinfoilhattery in eve is so rampant, I dont see any other solution. I am fed up with discussing this matter in corp chat and elsewhere and I see no other solution. Dont get mad - Get even
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.05.29 01:19:00 - [269] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 29/05/2007 01:19:18 Look at SWG and see what happens when devs don't play their own game. The solution to all of this is simple, stop buying into ******** goonswarm propaganda. All they're doing is spinning the truth in the hopes of setting off some more drama bombs before they're wiped from the game. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainfrane]
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.29 01:54:00 - [270] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 29/05/2007 01:19:18 Look at SWG and see what happens when devs don't play their own game. The solution to all of this is simple, stop buying into ******** goonswarm propaganda. All they're doing is spinning the truth in the hopes of setting off some more drama bombs before they're wiped from the game. This man speaks the truth. ------------------------- Sigs are for noobs.
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.29 01:59:00 - [271] I;d rather them be ingame than out of game. Join The Fight With Promo Today
Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.05.29 04:19:00 - [272] I disagree with OP. I agree with Leandro. Let the devs both enjoy and improve their own creation. (How do I always end up in the same threads as this corpmate of mine? Oh wait, it's because he's in every thread. )
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.29 05:19:00 - [273] Edited by: Ben Nato on 29/05/2007 05:19:35 As I said, the problem isn't them playing but there being no concequences for their actions. CCP don't care about what happens as long as people pay. That is NOT legal and people ignorent of the law should stop posting that it is. You pay and therefor you should get quality. Stop being a fool and stop posting drivel, look into the law and then post. Surprising it's the BoD/CCP supporters who post this crap, can't possibly be a coincident. I intend to lobby Sierra for Homeworld Online, competition will force CCP into either solvency or something that they haven't got now: care.
CaosSpinner	Posted - 2007.05.29 06:12:00 - [274] Ok after reading most of the post (first 3 pages and last 3) there are a couple of things to clear up. 1. To the posters that state that having the gm/devs play helps stop cheating, scams, exploits etc.... What game are you playing? CCP wants all those things in game to the point that they encourage it. Lie, steal, cheat, kill all without repercussions, thats EVE. 2. To all the posters that said, so what this was just one incident. You must be new, this is SOP (Standard opperating Procedure) for CCP, they (DEV/GM) have been doing this sort of thing from gold. Learn the history of the game, it will help your point next time you post. 3. To all those that say, "But they have to play to help make the game better" Keep in mind that the head developer went on record as stating that he (and the major devs) have been in 0.0 for years and was actually shocked to hear that players (read that paying customers) not only did not go to low sec or 0.0 but had no intrest in going there. I am going to repeat this because it is important. The top DEVs are shocked that players do not want to be ganked. Now think about that for a sec. How good a job do you think you will do developing a balanced game if you can not conceive that most players do not want to be your entertainment? It is because the DEVs/GMs are in the 0.0 aliances that the Prat welfare program was started in late 03. Look at the sec rating scheem, does it not strike you as kind odd? This is because originaly the game was ballanced, you did have 1.0 to 0.1 security instead of the 1.0-0.5 as it is now, but what changed it? The answer is the same as the Jobe fiasco (those players old enough to remember) the DEVs/GMs had started playing and giving T2 items to their corps and allies. One last thing, do the DEVS/GMs need to play to make EVE better? NO, they need to test thing but they should not play as Devs/GMs because playing narrows the scope of their experience. Why is macros not a prob to the Devs/gms? Well if they have been in 0.0 for the last 4 years they have not seen many have they. Why move all the ore out to 0.0 and not have the 5 races go after it, that makes no sense until you understand that the Devs/Gms are all in 0.0 so they are giving them selves all the toys and ignoring logic, gameplay, balance and all else. basicly they are sitting in the sand box and pulling everything to their side then saying, the rest of you need to come here because im bord and need something to kill. No the Devs do not need to play to do their jobs, they do need to test but testing in god mode is not actually testing.
ssorion Caldari The First Foundation Stella Polar	Posted - 2007.05.29 06:37:00 - [275] Wonder why GMs devs and admins are dragged in one pile here. GMs, people who answer petitions, fixing minor bugs, reimbursing players, and punishing them. Definitely they should NOT be playing game and should stay impartial. I fail to see why would they need to play the game, internal regulations are much better than 'playing experience'. Admins - tech personnel who maintain servers, databases and other software. Plus i'd add QA here. Ten times 'NO playing' for them. They have biggest power, and least need in playing experience. They'd better participate in some IT-related conferences and courses instead of playing. All load issues could be EASILY tested on SiSi, same goes for QA related tasks. Devs - coders, game designers, artists, 3d model designers, mission designers, etc. Well, YES, but limited and heavily audited. In fact, i'd love to see some 3d model designers being forced to fly caldari ships Most impact they could do - leak information about game design, or try to intentionally break something so it could be exploitable for some players. Sadly, to fully experience the game, they shouldnt be limited from top-alliance warfare. But, it should be CCP-controlled and strictly regulated, and their alliances being rotated on scheduled basis, so they could experience the feeling on being on both sides of the stick. Like, play 2 monthes in BoB, then 2 monthes in GS. Compare, see the difference in tactics, see why one side wins over another. See is it more coordinated teamwork or some balancing issue, etc. In short, they should play, but they shouldnt get too involved, they shouldnt build friendship with players, or become high-ranked within alliances. IA - they should play as well btw, to gather all the rumors and facts about misbehavior from community. Spying on all top alliances, and being informed about things which are bothering the community.
Eve Innovative Eve Innovative Technologies	Posted - 2007.05.29 06:57:00 - [276] Originally by: CaosSpinner No the Devs do not need to play to do their jobs, they do need to test but testing in god mode is not actually testing. Signed
Icheckjitamarketlol	Posted - 2007.05.29 06:57:00 - [277] Edited by: Icheckjitamarketlol on 29/05/2007 06:59:02 Edited by: Icheckjitamarketlol on 29/05/2007 06:57:44 Originally by: ssorion Wonder why GMs devs and admins are dragged in one pile here. GMs, people who answer petitions, fixing minor bugs, reimbursing players, and punishing them. Definitely they should NOT be playing game and should stay impartial. I fail to see why would they need to play the game, internal regulations are much better than 'playing experience'. Admins - tech personnel who maintain servers, databases and other software. Plus i'd add QA here. Ten times 'NO playing' for them. They have biggest power, and least need in playing experience. They'd better participate in some IT-related conferences and courses instead of playing. All load issues could be EASILY tested on SiSi, same goes for QA related tasks. I did some GMing for another MMO (Anarchy online), and I can definitely tell you that to be a good GM, you have to play the game, and have a good understanding of it. There's simply no way any training program can prepare you for all the myriad issues that come up. Besides, if the EvE support staff is anything like it was with AO, EVERYTHING GMs do is audited heavily, so there's no way they CAN do any kind of cheating, or treat people unfairly, without it being found out very very quickly. In AO the auditing was done by Senior GMs, who in turn were audited by the lead GM. CCP has a dedicated department for that kind of thing (Internal Affairs). Plus, EvE is a lot more complicated than AO ever was, so I'd say a good playing experience is even more vital.
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.29 07:01:00 - [278] Originally by: Ben Nato Edited by: Ben Nato on 29/05/2007 05:19:35 As I said, the problem isn't them playing but there being no concequences for their actions. CCP don't care about what happens as long as people pay. That is NOT legal and people ignorent of the law should stop posting that it is. You pay and therefor you should get quality. Stop being a fool and stop posting drivel, look into the law and then post. Surprising it's the BoD/CCP supporters who post this crap, can't possibly be a coincident. I intend to lobby Sierra for Homeworld Online, competition will force CCP into either solvency or something that they haven't got now: care. I'm not a BoB supporter, I dislike them immensely, I'm not a alt either, I've never been in BoB, and I've no connections to BoB whatsoever, but I disagree with the OP. So much for that statement, huh? There's been no proven misconduct in these recent allegations. Let's all way for what IA reports before we start screaming our assess off, shall we? ------------------------- Sigs are for noobs.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.29 07:37:00 - [279] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: Relaria Hossin Even EA staff makes fun of CCP for this. Seriously. EA. Who is next, Sony? Yeah cause we really want ccp taking developement tips from EA or sony oh a "former" blizzard employee comments, wow, so if he is so smart why is he a "former" employee again? clearly you haven't read though the posts and you don't know **** about anything your talking about.. sigh.. how i hate when people make comments to something they have no idea about. alot of the employee's left bliz after the wow release because..... aaaahh.. i won't bother with the details, find it yourself you lazy thing ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.29 07:39:00 - [280] Originally by: Relaria Hossin When the t20 thing happened we had Kug audit us for CCP staff. He found none. So Goonfleet is either CCP free or they are completely quiet about who they are and take steps to cover it up, which is how it should be. nicely said:) i agree. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
sorilin Amarr Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 07:45:00 - [281] ofc they shouldent be in the game.. regardless of what, they are only humans too and if the need stuff ofc they will use the cheat codes or Dev/GM codes to get it if they really need it. they are only humans. if they so bad wanna play the game on tq they should start playing the jove caracters. and add some FUN to the game... atm they ruin the game by being in it. i dont trust ccp, and i wont until ccp state that they are NOT aloved to play there own game... start focus on gm/dev being the joves... is what i say!!! that way they can play the game. but all will know its a GM and ofc they should be in the same corp all of em!!! ccp dont mess your own game up anymore! I am the borg!
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.29 07:48:00 - [282] Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: Relaria Hossin When the t20 thing happened we had Kug audit us for CCP staff. He found none. So Goonfleet is either CCP free or they are completely quiet about who they are and take steps to cover it up, which is how it should be. nicely said:) i agree. Because Kugutsamen can be trusted, and CCP cannot? Kugutsamen is out to discredit CCP, and is doing so by "proving" all CCP staff are members of BoB. He's more than likely uncovered a lot more people in other alliances, but he won't reveal them to the public because then he'd hurt his own cause. There's probably CCP staff in Goonfleet, and probably more than one. They're just hiding they're identities, because, well, they should. ------------------------- Sigs are for noobs.
Shae Laurel	Posted - 2007.05.29 07:59:00 - [283] I say YES to them playing the game as a player. I do not trust someone who cannot play his or hers own creation. /Shae
Obivan Efa The Machines	Posted - 2007.05.29 08:06:00 - [284] No. Main server should be free from DEVs and GMs chars. Why? 'cause they cheat. If u cheated once - u'll cheat again. We all can see a real sort of degradation of eve fairplay. All those t20 story was a true farce - looks like "Chancellor of the Exchequer" steals pens from his work office. If u decide to "cheat" would u stop on "pens"? The fact of formal investigation of this issue by CCP and a sham punishment leaves us confidence in that this will happen again and again.. CCP management should decide what will be more important for them: EVE, profits and players or their own staff fun and their cheating possibilities in game. Main EVE problem - it has no real SCI-FI competitor in MMORPG area same sort... ____________________________ Die, but perish! - viking's war-cry
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.05.29 08:11:00 - [285] i thank you all for all the nice replay's and i ask now as the op of this tread for a moderater to lock this tread, as i would say everything have been said and it's now a repeating and again i thank you all for giving your oppinion:) ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
Heather Drauls	Posted - 2007.05.29 08:37:00 - [286] Edited by: Heather Drauls on 29/05/2007 08:37:08 As people have said the real point is that: All 'non-player' powers should be auditable. Two people who don't play should be responsible for the audit log. Certain 'non-player' powers should require more than ONE person to activate. Then if some 'misuses' their powers it gets recorded, and potentially takes more than one dev/gm to make happen. (didn't mean to get in before the lock) - just got back from being away and read all this stuff.
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 08:43:00 - [287] I think that the Devs and GMs should play the game, and take part in all the aspects that the ordinary players take part in. Simply to know the game from the playing side. Thats quite a good reason for them to do so. On the other hand you have the chance of abuse. We have seen one such example(there might of course have been more in the past, not uncovered, but that is pure speculation). But there is good reason to believe that due to that example, the risk of it repeating is highly diminished. If you don't trust CCP to try their best at avoiding it - while still running a game - then you might as well go somewhere else. Because then they will never be able to satisfy you, with their explanations. What I am more concerned about is the inability of developers to shut their knowledge as devs out of their thought process. Its like playing chess against yourself. If you know something to be a bad decision, based purely on knowledge that only devs have access to, you will have to be ungodly strong mentally to make the decision still. Where as a non-dev player in the exact same position will make the decision without thinking twice, perhaps. Such occassions will perhaps be rare, and have very small impact on the greater picture. And as such I could live with it, if I was somewhat certain that the devs and GMs were spread out in the game, across alliances and corps, spreading the impact of such occasions evenly as can be practically hoped for. That being said, I think CCP has been quite bad at handling these situations, and the wording in some of the replies from Kieron and IA has been too definitive and judgmental to come from a company that have caught one of their employees with his fingers in the cookie jar once. A little piece of humble pie and a small cup of integritycheck wont hurt.
Cathy Penflam	Posted - 2007.05.29 08:54:00 - [288] I really like the "everyone is guilty until proven innocent" basis of the OP argument. Followed by a "let's not let them be tempted by this apple, just tie their hands". Dear OP, would you be so kind as to tell us where you come from to have such nice ideas, so that I can avoid this place. I'm quite attached to my human rights you see...
Euxinus DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 09:10:00 - [289] In all mmorpgs thats a problem. Imho it all depends on CCP's Policy.. If they wanna keep this great game on top of all other mmorpgs they should not let any staff play the game.. Thats called being professional.. Anything else than that such as "staff can play game with hiding their identity" or stuff leads to unfairness. You can't avoid it will happen eventually.. So i say CCP should not let any staff to play EVE if they wanna stop people quit.. Noone wants to play a game where you work 6 months to achieve something while someone else gets it from "somewhere" in 10 seconds.. Real gamers know how it feels.. Meh? well i am already ****ed all of that things happened so far. I left my old mmorpg because of the same reason and came EVE.. Sad for me really.. Just can't quit because there is no alternative for EVE yet. I am waiting for new EVE' like game.. And no you can't have my stuff..
EFF ONEF1 Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.29 09:11:00 - [290] yes they should be allowed play accounts. TO PLAY. same as the rest of us. but abusing their posistions to gain advantages over you and i is no bueno. Many other gaming companys have that line that, if crossed, results in the unemployment line and an extremely hard time trying to get back in the industry as your black flagged. If CCP can demonstrate to us that line is there, and procedures are inplace to either prevent, or deal with quickly and effectively, that line being crossed. I see no reason that CCP employees should be allowed to enjoy the game the run if that can be established. a good way to start is banning cellfones on the floor and having your IT guys flag people who are running messengers while working. and not allowing people to "poach" the petition queue looking for one submitted by their friends. If those simple procedures can be put inplace, sure. as it stands now, no. ----------------------------------------------- I have been known to take shuttles to various parts of 0.0 Why? I find it relaxing listening to the soothing voice of my autopilot.
fuze Gallente Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency	Posted - 2007.05.29 09:27:00 - [291] It just saddens me that despite the warning I gave about 2 years ago about possible conflict of interest or even corruption reality showed that somehow humans always tend to end up doing things they know they shouldn't. Some of the CCP staff and volunteers should know better because they tarnish the reputation of the ones that do their work as they are supposed to and give a damn. Same goes to the players that cannot seem to control themselves when it comes to epeen and other egocentrical goals. Then again my ranting probably is useless since some people never will learn to change their own destiny. My point to the OP would be to ask CCP to rethink their policy towards letting their staff as well as volunteers into the game and restrict them from being in major alliances because of the conflict of interest. And not because of the toin foil mob squad (which disgusts me from time to time) but of the failing of their old policy and even more the human nature that tends to show its ugly face every know and then even in this game.
BangerX	Posted - 2007.05.29 10:14:00 - [292] I vote to allow GM's and Dev's toplay - But there has to be some balance to which Corps/Alliances they are in - When they zall end up in BOB associated Corps, it makes the game unbalanced..
Caffeine Junkie Caldari Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.05.29 10:18:00 - [293] Yes the Dev's should be allowed personal accounts so long as being a Dev provides no unfair advantage over other players. These guys work hard building and refining this fantastic game for all of us, they should be allowed to enjoy the benefits of their work just like the rest of us. ___________________ =
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.29 10:22:00 - [294] Originally by: Cathy Penflam I really like the "everyone is guilty until proven innocent" basis of the OP argument. Followed by a "let's not let them be tempted by this apple, just tie their hands". Dear OP, would you be so kind as to tell us where you come from to have such nice ideas, so that I can avoid this place. I'm quite attached to my human rights you see... I'd say either the UK or the US. Anyway if we're going to tie people up because they might be tempted I'd say we start with the Dev's and while we're at it throw them off a cliff. And if BoD don't like it they can follow suit . Farjung, leave BoD before they get to you! Or if you're going to stay give me a Vindy with supaaaa setup. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'm a Goon BoD hating alt. Convo me in game if you don't like that and want to pod me.
ssorion Caldari The First Foundation Stella Polar	Posted - 2007.05.29 10:31:00 - [295] Originally by: Icheckjitamarketlol I did some GMing for another MMO (Anarchy online), and I can definitely tell you that to be a good GM, you have to play the game, and have a good understanding of it. There's simply no way any training program can prepare you for all the myriad issues that come up. Besides, if the EvE support staff is anything like it was with AO, EVERYTHING GMs do is audited heavily, so there's no way they CAN do any kind of cheating, or treat people unfairly, without it being found out very very quickly. In AO the auditing was done by Senior GMs, who in turn were audited by the lead GM. CCP has a dedicated department for that kind of thing (Internal Affairs). Plus, EvE is a lot more complicated than AO ever was, so I'd say a good playing experience is even more vital. I have experience being 'law-enforcement'/general support admin, member of reimbursements comission, and forum mod for few years in 2 MMO projects. Not such big brand like E-ON or AO, but last one is well known in Russia and Germany. For 'law-enforcement', no, there is no need to play the game. Only 'law' itself, with list of things considered exploits/cheats, and things not considered as such. For reimbursements, well, in that project, comission is mostly based of players from different game universes, but each case is decided collectively by voting, and comission head, and some people like me are impartial project staff. We had few issues with misbehavior of players there, but we could deal with it w/out any info leaking outside, and w/out any impact on playerbase. Cases usually demand some very deep knowledge of game mechanics, but balanced membership in comission (nearly equal number of members from each game universe) effectively prevents any abuse - not matter which case we are on, majority always would be impartial. For other stuff GMs do - i would like to see examples involving deep game knowledge. I definitely could tell whether it was an insult or not in questioned local log, even w/out knowing what is Erebus Now to whether you could abuse power or not. Ill give you examples from fields i have experience in. My enemie petition misbehavior of my corpmate. Lets say corpmate insulted him in local. Mostly such stuff is tricky, and heavily depends on GM's 'morality'. Was it insulting or not ? To ban or only issue formal warning ? Since i dont need to inform person who issued petition about decision (Just standart 'Hello, i am investigating the matter now, thanks for informing us, feel free to contact us again, petition closed, bye, GM w/e' will do), player who issued petition just does not have enough evidence to even assume that i reacted incorrectly. Or Real-Money-Trading. I know examples when people were banned solely for transferring large amounts of ISK via 'give money'. Sadly i lack enough information about inner regulations on this matter, but i bet i could find some workarounds to abuse it :P Or reimbursements. Oh god, thats easiest to abuse thing, all these 'omg lag' petitions Knowing HOW it is regulated its not that hard to 'fake' it. Now, you could say CCP have some strict regulations that do not let anyone bypass em... Do you know about issues of different GMs giving different answers on same question here in E-ON ? For some reason, i see such issues too often to believe in strict regulations. GM himself define what is right and what is wrong, and sorry, that leaves plenty of space for abuse. Also, you quoted my statement about IT staff, server admins. Does it mean you disagree and they have to have in-game experience too ?
Geralt Rivia 4S Corporation	Posted - 2007.05.29 10:34:00 - [296] No, devs/gm`s should not play the game, nor interact with players, unless its through petitions
Radgun Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.05.29 10:40:00 - [297] Yeah sure, but I think they should stay away from player corps; rather they should use their own corps or be in the newb corps forever. If I had a corp I wouldn't want a dev in it ever.
OneSock Silentia Mortalis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 10:49:00 - [298] I think they should play the game but only with NPC corps. I think it would be nice for the GMs/Devs to get more active in making the NPC corps more dynamic. A bit like the Aurora/Event teams. I'm sure they could still do any relevant testing within that context. They are Dev's afterall.
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.29 10:59:00 - [299] Originally by: CrestoftheStars i thank you all for all the nice replay's and i ask now as the op of this tread for a moderater to lock this tread, as i would say everything have been said and it's now a repeating and again i thank you all for giving your oppinion:) Nothing will change whether the thread is closed or kept open and that shows how much they care about us.
40 Cent Tri Optimum Ev0ke	Posted - 2007.05.29 11:23:00 - [300] well its normally my policy to not write in here, i will make one exeption for this topic: should devs and gms be allowed to play the game ? Yes they should, its the only real way to know how it can be played, as the gameplay will always evolve, just through the interaction and the creativity between all the players and with the changes of every patch. Its just very hard to find people who do their job well and are honest and straight forward enough to not abuse it. If you compare it with the normal world, those jobs would be at the level of the police or politics.
Bacci Galu Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.05.29 11:25:00 - [301] Yep allowed to play, just not join any alliances, make there own alliance.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.05.29 11:26:00 - [302] Originally by: Krulla Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: Relaria Hossin When the t20 thing happened we had Kug audit us for CCP staff. He found none. So Goonfleet is either CCP free or they are completely quiet about who they are and take steps to cover it up, which is how it should be. nicely said:) i agree. Because Kugutsamen can be trusted, and CCP cannot? Kugutsamen is out to discredit CCP, and is doing so by "proving" all CCP staff are members of BoB. He's more than likely uncovered a lot more people in other alliances, but he won't reveal them to the public because then he'd hurt his own cause. There's probably CCP staff in Goonfleet, and probably more than one. They're just hiding they're identities, because, well, they should. and you... along with CCP are out to discredit Kugutsamen. If you read the guy you quoted... you'd see that he comepletely agrees that this is how it should be, any gms that are in their are keeping it to themselves entirely and playing a straight ballgame. This is not the case with several small corps and alliances... but again, they dont make a fuss, they dont get caught cheating... BoB are different, they are big, love themselves and make sure everyone else knows it. and. they cheat. There is more to come trust me. CCP told many that kugus site was unsafe, that he is a danger to you and everyone you know and love!! True or not, many members of the community feel safer confiding in kugu than they do petitioning a GM for fear of where that information would lead and who would have access to it. Kugus site is also uncensored for the most part. Theres not a lot you can say here without it vanishing mysteriously. He caught a dev cheating and helping the "elite" stay in that position. We ARE playing with a stacked deck. No matter what happens now, Kugu is good for eve on the basis that he caught a cheating dev and spawned the CCP IA division (despite differing oppinions on how... effective this is) So to end my rant... I have seen the spin and lies come out of CCP and would trust Kugu over them and if there ARE devs/gms in goon they are keeping quiet about it, unlike the ones in bob. MSN anyone?
UKM Thorgrim Caldari Black Lance NBSI Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 11:34:00 - [303] Edited by: UKM Thorgrim on 29/05/2007 11:36:15 Edited by: UKM Thorgrim on 29/05/2007 11:34:36 "Devs and gm is a necessarily for the game, they do a good job keeping the server free for exploiters cheaters hackers and other people that will make harm on the paying costumers game time." is a fantastic Quote. CCP, the Dev's and the GM's & Gamers all contribiute to a fantastic game. but every now and again some tries to unbalance the game by Cheating or adding to His/Her corp/alliance. This keeps happening and 99% of the time they don't get caught, after nearly 2 years of playing the best game ever, my trust in CCP, Dev's & Gm's to keep them selves out of Corps/ Alliances, has turned to total despaire, they will continue to make this great game unbalanced in the favour of there chosen corp's / Alliances. Thses are my thoughts not those of my Corp/Alliance. So Dev's / Gm's should not be allowed in corp's/ alliances but yes play the game, so they can keep on top of what needs to be done. UKM_Thorgrim p.s "nos operor non impono" Honour & Steel.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 11:44:00 - [304] This is their game...they can do what they want to...I only wonder if you all complained and cried this hard when you played WoW? Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Capt Willard STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.29 12:08:00 - [305] in theory i think that YES it would be best for gm's/dev to not be allowed to have ingame chars. it would be an almost impossible rule to guarentee, (like account sharing ban. you gotta be preety dumb to get caught doing that). whats to stop a CCP employee creating an account paid for by a friend/relative or even GTC and only using it at home? At least if it was officially not allowed, CCP would have more grounds to enforce their own rules apon their employees. I just pray that CCP realises that the general 'honour' of the game is more important for buisness than using/helping alliances to shape it. The Horror......
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.29 12:15:00 - [306] Originally by: Roshan longshot This is their game...they can do what they want to...I only wonder if you all complained and cried this hard when you played WoW? Actually.. no. In WoW, EQ, EQII, and any other game you want to mention of any substance, there was nothing to complain about. GMs and Devs do play but they are intangible, unknown, discreet, and uninvolved in any player group. As far as I know, Eve holds the record in crossing the line between player and game staff.
veritas primus	Posted - 2007.05.29 12:41:00 - [307] Developers should NOT play Eve. Its evident that they can't control the power and responsibility. They have everyone's input in Eve to improve on the game. If they want to experience Eve then they need their own developer environment. They should never be a part of any alliance in game. Its simple really...noone likes to lose, and this is evident in the recent allegations. CCP can whitewash all they want, but the community knows what they've done.....they are just lucky that they developed a super addictive game or 3/4 of the subscriptions would have been canceled long ago.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 12:44:00 - [308] So if this bothers you so much, leave....Self destruct all your ships in protest, then de-skill you character by suicide, also in protest. But just leave the game is a better way of showing your distrust in CCP. BUT FOR GODSAKE ENOUGH OF THESE "CCP ARE CHEATERS" threads......just leave. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Nox Solaris	Posted - 2007.05.29 12:48:00 - [309] Yes. GMs, Devs, Bug Hunters, and everyone else connected with how Eve runs should be in the actual game itself as 'players'... how else to see how things are actually functioning and being used then to be BBQ'd by some unforseen use of some creation?
Akiman	Posted - 2007.05.29 13:06:00 - [310] what if they are not allowed? they can play at home... and i dont believe they care what we are saying... if i gotta say something...they can play jovians or their own alliances tho again it wont make a difference... good man is good. bad man is bad. and i smell something bad from here.im still thinking bout suspending or not. even tho i love the game.
Gee Lok	Posted - 2007.05.29 13:08:00 - [311] I think it is great that devs and GMs play eve so that they intimately know their product. tbh eve would be crap otherwise.
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.29 13:08:00 - [312] Originally by: Roshan longshot This is their game...they can do what they want to...I only wonder if you all complained and cried this hard when you played WoW? Another dillusional person who will buy a T.V without caring about it breaking. Good going.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 13:50:00 - [313] Wow look at all these alts.... You got somthing to say about CCP? Post with your main! And use the corp and alliance settings so we know who you are. Like I said before dont like it, leave...there is the door right over there. Dont let it hit you on the arse... Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.29 13:55:00 - [314] Originally by: Roshan longshot Wow look at all these alts.... You got somthing to say about CCP? Post with your main! And use the corp and alliance settings so we know who you are. Like I said before dont like it, leave...there is the door right over there. Dont let it hit you on the arse... Hiding oneÆs head in the sand is dangerous, as you invite anyone to come along and mess with your bottom.
Saladin Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.29 14:45:00 - [315] I'll keep this simple - No I don't think they should anymore. ----
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.29 14:45:00 - [316] Originally by: Roshan longshot But just leave the game is a better way of showing your distrust in CCP. Better than a public outcry? ORLY? :) By what logic? Because some fanboi says so?
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.05.29 14:47:00 - [317] It amuses me that so many of you spend so much time telling anybody who will listen how you absolutely don't trust CCP, a company you've handed your credit card details over to. but then i think CCP have Eve's (and indirectly, our) best interests at heart, even if they **** it up occasionally. so i'm not overly fussed.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 14:53:00 - [318] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Roshan longshot But just leave the game is a better way of showing your distrust in CCP. Better than a public outcry? ORLY? :) By what logic? Because some fanboi says so? Fanboi me...naw my sub ends on the 19th of next month. What about yours mr alt? Just leave. recycle all your toons, unistall eve, and leave. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.29 14:55:00 - [319] Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: CrestoftheStars So I say: No they should not be in the game as a player. And I say: YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for. The problem is they are not mutially exclusive, they can't program and improve a game they aren't playing as they will just make unbalanced changes, the facts of life are they need to be able to play and they shouldn't be banned from playing just because they have access to these high level tools. QFT, only problem with having a game that's 1 universe, 1 server. But oh well.
Popoi GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.29 15:16:00 - [320] Edited by: Popoi on 29/05/2007 15:20:55 Edited by: Popoi on 29/05/2007 15:15:04 I don't really buy the "They need to play to balance the game" argument. They have a whole server that they can use test things without compromising the live game. Combined with volunteers from the actual playerbase ("form a gang of 15 with your usual setups, and come kill this gang of developers"), there's not a lot about the real game they can't simulate. The bonus about that method of player experience is that it completely avoids the potential conflicts of interest that come from giving Devs/GMs a social role in the game. There are basically two solutions to prevent a conflict of interest: A total ban on personal interaction with the game , or strong internal controls to enforce a partition between personal and professional behavior. The cat's already out of the bag on the former, and the public side of CCP's investigations hasn't given me a whole lot of confidence that they can pull off the latter.
Liam Money Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.29 15:25:00 - [321] I think Devs and GM's should be allowed to play the game for the interest of research and further development, however they should not be allowed to be part of a player corp or alliance, there is a conflict of interest for them to stay unbiased and "research" the game. Give the GM's and Devs their own corp, they can run ops, set up towers, take space, lose space, pirate, or whatever. This would give them a full understanding of the game of EVE without having the incentive to "tinker" with the game in any way in which to further the interests of a player corp.
Royaldo KVA Noble Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.29 15:28:00 - [322] NO, they should not play on tq. "OK, I'm getting mildly offended by you now, Bhaal. That's just ridiculous. In june, close to 1000 paying accounts were banned. You do the math on how much that costs us financially."
Sam Reynolds Caldari Blue Sun Holdings Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:18:00 - [323] I posted my thoughts on this here, but I'll share it again since it's relevant. Quote: And proposals that devs shouldn't be able to play the game they created? Give me a break - if anyone with that thought in their head is even capable of slinging code (I am), how fun would it be to create such a great game and not be able to experience it yourself? I could see dev (and associated role) churn happening at a high level, which always leads to a compromised product. I am glad that employees USE THE PRODUCT and are passionate enough about it to always be improving it, because they want to see it improved.
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:40:00 - [324] Originally by: Sam Reynolds I posted my thoughts on this here, but I'll share it again since it's relevant. Quote: And proposals that devs shouldn't be able to play the game they created? Give me a break - if anyone with that thought in their head is even capable of slinging code (I am), how fun would it be to create such a great game and not be able to experience it yourself? I could see dev (and associated role) churn happening at a high level, which always leads to a compromised product. I am glad that employees USE THE PRODUCT and are passionate enough about it to always be improving it, because they want to see it improved. Careful. They don't much like intelligent posting here. It appearantly makes you a BoB alt. I'd be careful 'round these parts if I were you! ------------------------- Sigs are for noobs.
ho chiminh Gallente SlackaNova	Posted - 2007.05.29 20:30:00 - [325] Originally by: Liam Money I think Devs and GM's should be allowed to play the game for the interest of research and further development, however they should not be allowed to be part of a player corp or alliance, there is a conflict of interest for them to stay unbiased and "research" the game. Give the GM's and Devs their own corp, they can run ops, set up towers, take space, lose space, pirate, or whatever. This would give them a full understanding of the game of EVE without having the incentive to "tinker" with the game in any way in which to further the interests of a player corp. Yeah Great, give them their own corp. Of course a CCP employee with insider knowledge of Eve and how it runs etc would NEVER CREATE AN ALT to profit from that knowledge. TBH though, if one were dedicated one could work 8 hours and then go home and play for 8 hours with an alt or a separate account. Bottom line you can't keep game creator employees from playing game, in Eve or any other game. Best you can do is police 'em and live with the results.
Gorken Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.05.29 21:00:00 - [326] Upset?: Well, yeah. Quitting?: Going to set a long skill and take a break for awhile. Check on how all this unfolds in the mean time. Should they play in the game?: Of course they should! However, the customer's trust and respect doesn't mean much to them apparently as they have shown through their own actions. Do you like the the Game?: Best MMO I've played in many ways, yet the disrespect for the customer ruins the best game. It just seems that some of the devs play & create the world of EVE only for themselves, with the customers as their tolerated lap-dogs that they allow in their virtual world. I don't think that of all, just a few.
Trevedian Amarr KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.05.29 22:01:00 - [327] I really think this is witch hunt is ridiculous... Sharkbait was just doing his job! Of course CCP employees, GM's, ISD, should be allowed to actually play the game they are responsible for creating, updating, modifying, and maintaining. Players that believe that CCP should have no involvement on Tranquility fail to grasp that THIS IS A GAME. Chastizing people who are just doing their job when you don't understand things could be very destructive to someones career and livelyhood. EVE is an incredibly complicated game and has evolved in ways (i'm sure) that no one imagined. CCP employees need to be involved as directly as they can be in order to provide the best product for their clientele. EVE is a great game that has provided me with years of enjoyment, I'd hate to see a scandal orchestrated by scaremongers hurt its reputation. Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
Dravisain Minmatar Prime Order	Posted - 2007.05.29 22:22:00 - [328] The problem is the few individuals that ruined it for the rest of us in the game. Like the tech II BPOs in BoB (without going into it further) that may have caused some monetary and unfair advantage. Intelelligence gathering, many claim to have been gleamed from developers. Others with chat convos of the future of inventions, so sell the tech II BPOs right away because they will become useless. Whether true or not, tarnishes the reputation of CCP I think being able to spawn BPOs was a really bad example of GM powers being abused. it was worst when he wasn't fired. that is just sending a bad signal to the players betrayed by this action. (Remember, for every advancement an alliance makes in 0.0, some other alliance had to be defeated) They should be allowed to play however. But limited and monitored. The policy should be clear, any abuse and You are FIRED! That is where T2 went wrong. He was just a gui delveloper, he deserved the boot. CCP should still fire someone willing to ruin the game and cheat for the advancedment of his alliance. Hell, if buying isk with money is bad; buying a character on ebay is a banable offense. What should be the punishment for spawning tech II BPOs that generate BILLIONS of isk in income. The rule should be clear, YOURE FIRED! So let them play, but with short leash. Otherwise limit developers to test server only. And GMs to have every incident of spawning tech II BPOS, faction ships, +4 implants LOGGED and reviewed on a weekly basis. there is nothign much we can do to limit their intel for their alliances, bummer.
ssorion Caldari The First Foundation Stella Polar	Posted - 2007.05.29 23:39:00 - [329] Originally by: Trevedian Players that believe that CCP should have no involvement on Tranquility fail to grasp that THIS IS A GAME. Chastizing people who are just doing their job when you don't understand things could be very destructive to someones career and livelyhood. EVE is an incredibly complicated game and has evolved in ways (i'm sure) that no one imagined. CCP employees need to be involved as directly as they can be in order to provide the best product for their clientele. EVE is a great game that has provided me with years of enjoyment, I'd hate to see a scandal orchestrated by scaremongers hurt its reputation. This is NOT a game. This is MMO business, and people pay money here. CCP provide services here. Employes should WORK instead PLAYING the game. Work may involve 'testing' or even some game-playing, but only from employee of CCP point of view. Providing good services and being 'too involved' are contradicting statements. When developer get 'too involved', he start to play instead of working. Including so-called 'meta play', involving using his developer capabilities to aid his and his alliance clause. If developer only fly capships in 0.0, how could he improove empire ? Or mining ? Or 'support'-class ships ? Being tooo involved in his alliance warfare, he knows NOTHING about how other parts of game works.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.29 23:53:00 - [330] Originally by: ssorion This is NOT a game. This is MMO business, and people pay money here. CCP provide services here. Employes should WORK instead PLAYING the game. yeah cause everyone at ccp is expected to work 23/7, downtime is just there so they can sleep
Chelone	Posted - 2007.05.29 23:55:00 - [331] Originally by: ssorion If developer only fly capships in 0.0, how could he improove empire ? Or mining ? Or 'support'-class ships ? Being tooo involved in his alliance warfare, he knows NOTHING about how other parts of game works. You have made a very good (unintended) point. If devs play only in 0.0 alliances, they won't have a balanced or helpful perspective. If someone believes devs should play for the good of the game, then for the good of the game, let's assign them most or all possible roles: Empire miner Lowsec miner 0.0 miner Empire mission runner Lowsec mission runner 0.0 mission runner Empire trader etc, etc. Some roles could overlap where appropriate. If devs need to play the game, they need to play ALL of it, and play from the perspective of improving the game rather than cheating to help themselves (as is constantly SUSPECTED at least.)
Malloc Memrel	Posted - 2007.05.30 00:33:00 - [332] Crossposted from the "other" thread, I think this sums up nicely the reasons for insisting on invisibility of developers on the public server: Originally by: Malloc Memrel By way of anecdote since I ran out of room last post, we used to joke about an associate of mine at Blizzard having "Magic Dice". As is common in large dungeon crawls, the best loot would be "rolled" for by asking the system's random number generator for a number between one and a hundred, with the highest roller being allowed to take the most coveted items. This employee would almost always win the rolls. It didn't matter if the next highest roll was nine or ninety, he'd win it most of the time. When he played on the public servers, his guildmates gave him good-natured grief about it- "Argh, you lucky son of a~!"- but they just chalked it up to him being really lucky, as some people simply are. Think, for a second, what their reaction would be if they knew he was a developer? Would it be so easy to pass his consistent good fortune off with the knowledge that he knows the people who designed the random number generator? Would it be impossible to concieve that he knew, somehow, how to fix the dice? Even if it was the farthest thing from the truth, there'd be the suspicion, and it wouldn't be unreasonable, which is why he's never told anyone outside the company anything about his character, his guild, anything, ever. His guildmates have no reason to suspect him because they have no idea they're playing with a Blizzard employee. Nobody ever has any idea that they're playing with Blizzard employees, not even to each other. I've heard of Blizzard people who went to guild meets incognito and discovered that their co-workers have been right there in their guild with them for months and months without even realizing it, so total was the secrecy. I think EVE as a whole needs a new set of blinders put on it, one that obscures all vision between the customer side of the line and the corporate side of the line. Mixing the two is a pandora's box that has, is, and will inevitably lead to more public outcries over accusations of impropriety which ultimately hurt the company as a whole. I don't know how things are in Europe, but stateside the video game industry is one big incestuous family where everybody knows everybody else. How many times will "EVE Scandal!" have to appear on the front page of Slashdot before the company becomes a Resume' Stain? We're at twice, and that's pushing it already. Of course, the problem in only bringing it up now is that in order to actually fix the problem, every internal character would have to be wiped clean. I don't mean renamed, as that would be too easy to figure out- in a game like this, there's pretty much only one conclusion to come to if you find a character with four years' worth of skills and an empty corp history that no one's ever seen before. No, I mean wiped clean, day one, "Welcome to EVE, here's how you mine Veldspar" new characters. Painful as it may be, it's the only way I can see of re-establishing developer annonymity. That, and a gag order under pain of termination. Also, I'd like to re-iterate my "Rubbish" comment to anyone who claims that developers need to be playing the game as their professional personas. You should never, ever be able to see any player with "CCP" or "GM" in front of their names unless they are confronting you with something that absolutely requires their presence. They should be invisible, intangible, at best identifiable only so much as they can be held accountable. And corporations shouldn't mean a thing, either- we created, filled, tested, and disbanded guilds every day. When you can create an infinite number of accounts/characters at will and can spawn in any and every asset in the database with a snap of your fingers, there is absolutely no reason to "test" anything out on the public servers.
Mik Nostrebor Minmatar Tech 3 Hotsauce Limited	Posted - 2007.05.30 00:36:00 - [333] CCP needs to clean up ISD. It is not good for it to be seen as being run in a very bad and corrupt manner. To me it seems that ISD is at risk of being disbanded altogether which would be a bad thing for us players. After all, if this hoohar keeps up CCP will be looking for a scape goat and ISD is right up there in the line of fire. They need to make sure that NO BoB members (dev or otherwise) have direct personal access to senior ISD members and that ISD members remain anonymous to the devs. Only the CCP support managers have any business dealing with ISD at this level. It also means that none of the dev staff can actually be in ISD either except in publicly disclosed roles (eg Kieron). If I were in IA I would be making recommendations to that effect in an effort to remove any avenues of conflict of interest and possible corruption. So we should be lobbying CCP in the forums to reform ISD. EG: 1. Remove all devs from ISD except for support staff. 2. Remove dev access to ISD member identities 3. Initiate proper disciplinary procedures for ISD members and not arbitrary dismissal. 4. CCP Support staff who have access to ISD member information should not be allowed to have normal playing accounts on the live server. 5. RP GM staff should not ever have player accounts 6. Devs with player accounts cannot become involved in RP Events. 7. Devs with player accounts cannot be in senior roles in any Alliance or corp within an Alliance. They should be reminded that their player accounts are there mainly for gameplay testing purposes and not for personal fulfilment. 8. Devs with player accounts should be flagged clearly to to all other dev accounts, including their real identities. (Not flagged to normal players however) 9. All Dev accounts that are currently in BoB should be deleted, regardless of their involvment in the current debarcle. This should be done as a demonstration of the commitment of CCP to its players. 10. All player members in BoB who are also in the ISD program should have their ISD accounts suspended until they leave BoB or choose to leave the ISD program. 11. All ISD accounts should be recreated with different names to ensure anonymity . Those are my thoughts anyway.
MehTheTrader University of Caille	Posted - 2007.05.30 00:36:00 - [334] Having devs play in game promotes cheating. With the current system devs/gms have absolutely no trouble in cheating. obviously ccp doesnt care about cheating if they rehired t20.
ssorion Caldari The First Foundation Stella Polar	Posted - 2007.05.30 00:56:00 - [335] Originally by: Chelone If devs need to play the game, they need to play ALL of it, and play from the perspective of improving the game rather than cheating to help themselves (as is constantly SUSPECTED at least.) Thats what i did mean exactly. And to achieve that, i believe not getting 'too involved' is nessesary. Switching playstyle, and alliances on a regular basis would help alot.
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.30 00:58:00 - [336] There is absolutely zero reason for any CCP employee or volunteer to be playing on Tranquility when there are two perfectly good test servers(albeit 1 public) available. Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.30 01:25:00 - [337] Originally by: Dramaticus There is absolutely zero reason for any CCP employee or volunteer to be playing on Tranquility when there are two perfectly good test servers(albeit 1 public) available. Read the goddamn devblog. Arkanon explains it a lot better than I ever could. http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=472 Originally by: Arkanon While itÆs somewhat understandable that the participation of CCP staff in EVE is being questioned once again, our answer must once more be that our involvement is vital to the development of EVE. Barring CCP employees from the game would effectively stop EVE in its tracks. EVE is such a complex application that it is impossible to understand it without participating, playing on the test server is not the full EVE experience, nor is it possible to replicate issues involving our server structure or large amounts of players using it. There is simply no way to develop a world as complex as this without experiencing it firsthand. You cannot develop it by proxy, evaluate fun through statistics, or make judgments without fully understanding how it grows and evolves, especially when nearly everything we create and place in EVE can be used by players in ways that were never anticipated. In order to do justice to our game and to meet your expectations, we must share your frustrations, joys, successes and failures. One cannot fully appreciate the investment of time and effort that players make without trying it one's self. Every employee at CCP should know what it is like to work themselves to exhaustion for something you, the EVE community, believe in and love, in game and out. At the same time, each and every CCP employee is expected to exercise their judgment while doing so and treat EVE, CCP and our customers with the respect they deserve. Nothing else is acceptable, not to you and certainly not to us. ------------------------- Sigs are for noobs.
Mik Nostrebor Minmatar Tech 3 Hotsauce Limited	Posted - 2007.05.30 05:35:00 - [338] Originally by: Mik Nostrebor CCP needs to clean up [SNNNIP] Those are my thoughts anyway. I am glad I posted that here....the other thread seems to be have deleted after 170 pages of replies....
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.30 07:42:00 - [339] Yes, the devs should play their own game, but they should have no dev powers/commands on their playing accounts. If its too boring for a dev to grind a ship, then its too boring for a player to grind a ship too. They should play it just like the day 1 noob plays it, waiting 2 weeks for the learning skills to finish just like everybody else, waiting a month for tech 2 guns just like everybody else, grinding cash in 0.0 just like everybody else, not /create t2 BPO command. If you find grinding cash boring then so do your players. If you find the skills take too long to train, so do your players. Don't play it like a dev, play it like a player.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.30 07:51:00 - [340] Bluntly, I don't think a dev should ever be in a influential position in game. If this means not playing it that's the way it should be. Raptor and Ares Fix
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.30 08:06:00 - [341] Originally by: Cipher7 Yes, the devs should play their own game, but they should have no dev powers/commands on their playing accounts. If its too boring for a dev to grind a ship, then its too boring for a player to grind a ship too. They should play it just like the day 1 noob plays it, waiting 2 weeks for the learning skills to finish just like everybody else, waiting a month for tech 2 guns just like everybody else, grinding cash in 0.0 just like everybody else, not /create t2 BPO command. If you find grinding cash boring then so do your players. If you find the skills take too long to train, so do your players. Don't play it like a dev, play it like a player. That's.. exactly what they do. ------------------------- Sigs are for noobs.
Akiman	Posted - 2007.05.30 12:12:00 - [342] Edited by: Akiman on 30/05/2007 12:14:09 Originally by: Roshan longshot Wow look at all these alts.... You got somthing to say about CCP? Post with your main! And use the corp and alliance settings so we know who you are. Like I said before dont like it, leave...there is the door right over there. Dont let it hit you on the arse... this is my main... and who gave u the right ask to leave?
Ehrys Marakai Caldari Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.05.30 13:17:00 - [343] Hmmm... Ok, you say the Devs are playing the game and can possibly be abusing their powers. You say all devs should leave the game. 1. Please name all the dev's normal player names...Oh what sorry, you can't? Why not? Ahh because you don't know because they don't tell you! 2. They join and alliance to spy on them for their "parent" corp/alliance. Hey, you mean a normal player spy? 3. CCP Devs all have special telekinetic powers. This is obvious, because they know what the alliance is going to do before the alliance heads do. What do you mean I'm talking silly? That's what you said, they let their friends know what's going to happen. I refer you back to point 2. 4. Speaking as a games programmer, if I didn't get to play the game I was writing, I would lose interest in it. I would also not know the game dynamics. The big voice of "Increase mining yeild by 50000% because mining is too slow!" would probably get listened to. They[customers] do this not because they are right, but because they want the game to be easier. By having an in game perspective you know how fast/slow mining/pvp is and can balance the game without listening to the "I want X to make my life easier" crowd. NOTE: I do not work for CCP! I write games in my spare time and for my degree course 5. Your argument: I work at shop X. I want to buy something from shop X. Oh wait, I can't. Why? Because I work at shop X. If devs didn't play this game, I wouldn't either. Good game CCP, some us do believe in you, you know.
Tankred Hauteville Gallente Monolith Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.30 13:56:00 - [344] strictly no GMs or Devs in the game. just my opinion, not yours. ------------------------------------------------------------- The king is dead, long live the king! - UTKB
Tommy Vercetti Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.30 14:04:00 - [345] Originally by: ho chiminh Bottom line you can't keep game creator employees from playing game, in Eve or any other game. Best you can do is police 'em and live with the results. This. It's either devs playing or no Eve IMO. It's bad enough the way CCP yield to whiners while they play the game, let along removing them entirely of it and asking them to balance it. What needs to be done (and isn't quite so easy) is making sure their powers are kept strictly professional. A tall order and one I hope they don't drag through the mud.
Phoenix ShadowDancer	Posted - 2007.05.30 14:59:00 - [346] Should Dev's and GM's be allowed to play the game as standard players? YES! They have worked so hard on this great game that not allowing them to play would lessen the game overall for all player. Playing the game gives them insite that they would not normally get from watching the game. But the issue and problems they create by being a Dev or GM in game is that they bring a capability and knowledge to the corporations that they join and slant the development view on what should be worked on and updated for there benefit. It all comes down to the quality control of CPP's employees in general, if a GM or DEV is playing a character that has games development ability in a production environment then we start to see the major problems we are having today. I would suggest removal of all Dev and GM abilities to characters be removed from the production environment and all characters that need those abilities in game are flagged and audited on a regular basis. ie when they do something they have to write the ticket number they are fixing. I would also suggest that all CPP employees be forced to join a certain corp so there all in one place so there would be no more talk of alting for other alliances. The CPP must view the game as a assist that must be maintained for it customers and any developer or GM that even looks the wrong way as in all other online games is banned from playing in production. They have built one of the greatest online community games and it shows by all the great players that enjoy Eve Online everyday. It all comes down the the community trusting the CPP company to manage a fair and equal opportunity game for everybody and playing favorites is not the way to do that. They have not only lost trust in there player base they have done little to nothing to fix this view that a few trouble makers have created. CPP CLEAN UP YOU EMPLOYEE GAME USE POLICY AND FORCE THE REMOVAL OF THERE CHARACTERS FROM THE TOP MOVERS & SHAKERS IN THE GAME. The game is for the player not your employees. Just my 2 cents.
TOTALHELLDEATH	Posted - 2007.05.30 15:32:00 - [347] Edited by: TOTALHELLDEATH on 30/05/2007 15:31:38 Devs/ADMINS/GM's and ISD should not have the permission to play in superpower blocks like RA/GOON/BOB or MC we all know why.. look at the last events CCP have no trust any longer and all they do in the last time do it more worse than ever. CCP is sending their customers a lawery to bring them to shutup. Hell! ccp? do you realy think you will get trust on this way? Create a Post, with all Dev/Admin/GM and ISD!! Player Chars remove them from their current corps rename them and monitor them that they dont longer have a chance to take influence on important events. It's a ******* Job they have to do, they got good money for.. so they should do something for!
TOTALHELLDEATH	Posted - 2007.05.30 15:32:00 - [348] Edited by: TOTALHELLDEATH on 30/05/2007 15:31:38 Devs/ADMINS/GM's and ISD should not have the permission to play in superpower blocks like RA/GOON/BOB or MC we all know why.. look at the last events CCP have no trust any longer and all they do in the last time do it more worse than ever. CCP is sending their customers a lawery to bring them to shutup. Hell! ccp? do you realy think you will get trust on this way? Create a Post, with all Dev/Admin/GM and ISD!! Player Chars remove them from their current corps rename them and monitor them that they dont longer have a chance to take influence on important events. It's a ******* Job they have to do, they got good money for.. so they should do something for!
Maximor Skill Level Six Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.05.30 15:43:00 - [349] Temptation is a way of life folks. There are two evils here and what the community is attempting to decide is which of the evils is lesser. Do you allow developers to play the game and risk them cheating? Do you forbid them to play and risk sweeping gamechanges that arent relevant or useful? We all face a starkely similar choice when we vote. So the question really is, which one could you better live with? My answer: I would rather risk a bit of cheating and have the developers involved in the game they are designing so that when they make changes, they can better understand the effects those changes will have. Besides, in the long run, there has been 1 confirmed instance of abuse in what, 4 years? I think thats pretty good.
Rez Valintine Caldari HeXXeD	Posted - 2007.05.30 15:43:00 - [350] Edited by: Rez Valintine on 30/05/2007 15:42:25 Originally by: Ehrys Marakai Hmmm... Ok, you say the Devs are playing the game and can possibly be abusing their powers. You say all devs should leave the game. 1. Please name all the dev's normal player names...Oh what sorry, you can't? Why not? Ahh because you don't know because they don't tell you! .[/b] The reason I cancelled my last account was to to the fact that I did have a dev in my corp - was only an 8 man corp. That account was deleted - costing me billions as all of a sudden I didn't have the standings required for the shiny new POS. I didn't find out said player was a dev until after the fact. CCP's inability to seperate developers and gamers cost me months of game time. That is unacceptable. So in my corp, I don't let anyone in - for fear they may be a dev.
Maximor Skill Level Six Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.05.30 15:43:00 - [351] Temptation is a way of life folks. There are two evils here and what the community is attempting to decide is which of the evils is lesser. Do you allow developers to play the game and risk them cheating? Do you forbid them to play and risk sweeping gamechanges that arent relevant or useful? We all face a starkely similar choice when we vote. So the question really is, which one could you better live with? My answer: I would rather risk a bit of cheating and have the developers involved in the game they are designing so that when they make changes, they can better understand the effects those changes will have. Besides, in the long run, there has been 1 confirmed instance of abuse in what, 4 years? I think thats pretty good.
Rez Valintine Caldari HeXXeD	Posted - 2007.05.30 15:43:00 - [352] Edited by: Rez Valintine on 30/05/2007 15:42:25 Originally by: Ehrys Marakai Hmmm... Ok, you say the Devs are playing the game and can possibly be abusing their powers. You say all devs should leave the game. 1. Please name all the dev's normal player names...Oh what sorry, you can't? Why not? Ahh because you don't know because they don't tell you! .[/b] The reason I cancelled my last account was to to the fact that I did have a dev in my corp - was only an 8 man corp. That account was deleted - costing me billions as all of a sudden I didn't have the standings required for the shiny new POS. I didn't find out said player was a dev until after the fact. CCP's inability to seperate developers and gamers cost me months of game time. That is unacceptable. So in my corp, I don't let anyone in - for fear they may be a dev.
Relaed FireStar Inc FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.30 16:17:00 - [353] Not sure where you get your numbers from, they are not based on any facts for sure. Let us be real; do you want the police to also be the judge and the jury? No, you don't. If GMs and Devs want to play, that is fine; but with restrictions and public awareness. All GMS and Devs should be required to submit to having their characters clearly listed as belonging to GMs and Devs. No ands, ifs, or buts. They should also sign a waiver of sorts, so that if and when they are caught not complying with the above disclosure rules, they would be fired from their GM/Dev jobs immediately, without recourse. This game has been going down hill for a while now, it's just picking up speed with all the corruption going on in CCP. If they had any morales, they would stop GM/Dev cheating cold, now, forever. Originally by: Rod Blaine Yes they should. Even if only so they can enjoy Eve too. 99% of the 'issues' that have actually resulted in action on CCP's behalf involve players exploiting the game. 0.9% involve volunteers and maybe 0.1% involve employees. So, don't worry this much. If the 0.1% gains even a fractionally better understanding of their game that they can apply to battling the 99% you're winning. note: these stats are entirely made up of course, as all stats on the internet are. The gist of the argumetn should be clear to anyone that's outgrown the foetal stage however.
Methos Caldari DarkStar 1	Posted - 2007.05.30 17:46:00 - [354] its a simple solution, and it is CCPs fault for letting any of these issues crop up. 1. dev accounts only play one test server not live, GMs and ISD play in one corp. No paying player corps. 2. When incidents like the T20 thing come up, employee is summarly fired, all the bpos that were spawned are destroyed, accounts that accepted them are banned, which in both cases were not, and a formal appology is sent out to the eve client base. CCP wants it players trust then they need to do things that promote trust not guffaw and puff thier chests out and tell us not to look at the little men behind the curtain. As my quote says and it is still true to this day over 2000 years have passed "we are what we repeatedly do, excelence is not and act, but a habit" CCP has already had 1 confirmed incident. That just means the next one is looming and rest assured if they dont change things it will happen again as someone pointed out in an earlier post its just human nature to want ot help yourself and your friends out. And I agree. Nuff said. "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." ARISTOTLE
Veng3ance Illicit Technologies	Posted - 2007.05.30 17:47:00 - [355] Yes. They should do whatever they please. If you don't like it. Quit.
Rufo Kathcar	Posted - 2007.05.30 19:13:00 - [356] Devs and GMs should definitely play the live game that they develop and administer. It gives them real world perspective. However, their personal accounts and characters should be absolutely normal "civilians" with no extraordinary abilities, interfaces, powers or resources whatsoever. While special GM and Dev accounts are obviously needed on the live server in order to adminster and troubleshoot the game, they should never be used for ordinary gameplay. When GMs and Devs play their ordinary personal accounts, they should not (on pain of discipline and/or termination) reveal their employment status to any other player, either in game or via outside channels. Enacting and enforcing these guidelines would improve player trust and enjoyment of the game.
Luke Skyrider DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.30 21:13:00 - [357] Originally by: Krulla Originally by: Dramaticus There is absolutely zero reason for any CCP employee or volunteer to be playing on Tranquility when there are two perfectly good test servers(albeit 1 public) available. Read the goddamn devblog. Arkanon explains it a lot better than I ever could. http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=472 Originally by: Arkanon While itÆs somewhat understandable that the participation of CCP staff in EVE is being questioned once again, our answer must once more be that our involvement is vital to the development of EVE. Barring CCP employees from the game would effectively stop EVE in its tracks. EVE is such a complex application that it is impossible to understand it without participating, playing on the test server is not the full EVE experience, nor is it possible to replicate issues involving our server structure or large amounts of players using it. There is simply no way to develop a world as complex as this without experiencing it firsthand. You cannot develop it by proxy, evaluate fun through statistics, or make judgments without fully understanding how it grows and evolves, especially when nearly everything we create and place in EVE can be used by players in ways that were never anticipated. In order to do justice to our game and to meet your expectations, we must share your frustrations, joys, successes and failures. One cannot fully appreciate the investment of time and effort that players make without trying it one's self. Every employee at CCP should know what it is like to work themselves to exhaustion for something you, the EVE community, believe in and love, in game and out. At the same time, each and every CCP employee is expected to exercise their judgment while doing so and treat EVE, CCP and our customers with the respect they deserve. Nothing else is acceptable, not to you and certainly not to us. Well the fact is the main cause for devs cheating and abusing their position within CCP are to much conflict of interest or personal, corp or alliance interest that outweight or compete with CCP interest. To help prevent this CCP need to "police" their employees which should not get "to involved" with corp or alliance politics and other influential positions. Playing as grunts with non-influencial positions are the way to limit conflict of interest so it's less likely that devs are able and willing to abuse their position within CCP. The devs should act as professionals and stop acting like a bunch of amateurs with conflict of interest that undermine their CCP profession. Same apply to other similar games with online competition. Game developers should not "play to win" but play to improve the game. That's what they get paid for. The devs that step over the line should be fired, period. You are either a professional or not. The devs cheating certainly dont keep CCP and the EVE community in their best interest. So perhabs it's time to clean house? Conflict of interest? what? Trust us we are on your side! Conflict of interest = Not trust worthy [PvP-Recruitment] \| www.dab-online.com

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