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should Dev's and GM's be allowed to be ingame players(vote/discussion)

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Bacci Galu Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.05.29 11:25:00 - [301] Yep allowed to play, just not join any alliances, make there own alliance.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.05.29 11:26:00 - [302] Originally by: Krulla Originally by: CrestoftheStars Originally by: Relaria Hossin When the t20 thing happened we had Kug audit us for CCP staff. He found none. So Goonfleet is either CCP free or they are completely quiet about who they are and take steps to cover it up, which is how it should be. nicely said:) i agree. Because Kugutsamen can be trusted, and CCP cannot? Kugutsamen is out to discredit CCP, and is doing so by "proving" all CCP staff are members of BoB. He's more than likely uncovered a lot more people in other alliances, but he won't reveal them to the public because then he'd hurt his own cause. There's probably CCP staff in Goonfleet, and probably more than one. They're just hiding they're identities, because, well, they should. and you... along with CCP are out to discredit Kugutsamen. If you read the guy you quoted... you'd see that he comepletely agrees that this is how it should be, any gms that are in their are keeping it to themselves entirely and playing a straight ballgame. This is not the case with several small corps and alliances... but again, they dont make a fuss, they dont get caught cheating... BoB are different, they are big, love themselves and make sure everyone else knows it. and. they cheat. There is more to come trust me. CCP told many that kugus site was unsafe, that he is a danger to you and everyone you know and love!! True or not, many members of the community feel safer confiding in kugu than they do petitioning a GM for fear of where that information would lead and who would have access to it. Kugus site is also uncensored for the most part. Theres not a lot you can say here without it vanishing mysteriously. He caught a dev cheating and helping the "elite" stay in that position. We ARE playing with a stacked deck. No matter what happens now, Kugu is good for eve on the basis that he caught a cheating dev and spawned the CCP IA division (despite differing oppinions on how... effective this is) So to end my rant... I have seen the spin and lies come out of CCP and would trust Kugu over them and if there ARE devs/gms in goon they are keeping quiet about it, unlike the ones in bob. MSN anyone?
UKM Thorgrim Caldari Black Lance NBSI Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 11:34:00 - [303] Edited by: UKM Thorgrim on 29/05/2007 11:36:15 Edited by: UKM Thorgrim on 29/05/2007 11:34:36 "Devs and gm is a necessarily for the game, they do a good job keeping the server free for exploiters cheaters hackers and other people that will make harm on the paying costumers game time." is a fantastic Quote. CCP, the Dev's and the GM's & Gamers all contribiute to a fantastic game. but every now and again some tries to unbalance the game by Cheating or adding to His/Her corp/alliance. This keeps happening and 99% of the time they don't get caught, after nearly 2 years of playing the best game ever, my trust in CCP, Dev's & Gm's to keep them selves out of Corps/ Alliances, has turned to total despaire, they will continue to make this great game unbalanced in the favour of there chosen corp's / Alliances. Thses are my thoughts not those of my Corp/Alliance. So Dev's / Gm's should not be allowed in corp's/ alliances but yes play the game, so they can keep on top of what needs to be done. UKM_Thorgrim p.s "nos operor non impono" Honour & Steel.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 11:44:00 - [304] This is their game...they can do what they want to...I only wonder if you all complained and cried this hard when you played WoW? Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Capt Willard STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.29 12:08:00 - [305] in theory i think that YES it would be best for gm's/dev to not be allowed to have ingame chars. it would be an almost impossible rule to guarentee, (like account sharing ban. you gotta be preety dumb to get caught doing that). whats to stop a CCP employee creating an account paid for by a friend/relative or even GTC and only using it at home? At least if it was officially not allowed, CCP would have more grounds to enforce their own rules apon their employees. I just pray that CCP realises that the general 'honour' of the game is more important for buisness than using/helping alliances to shape it. The Horror......
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.29 12:15:00 - [306] Originally by: Roshan longshot This is their game...they can do what they want to...I only wonder if you all complained and cried this hard when you played WoW? Actually.. no. In WoW, EQ, EQII, and any other game you want to mention of any substance, there was nothing to complain about. GMs and Devs do play but they are intangible, unknown, discreet, and uninvolved in any player group. As far as I know, Eve holds the record in crossing the line between player and game staff.
veritas primus	Posted - 2007.05.29 12:41:00 - [307] Developers should NOT play Eve. Its evident that they can't control the power and responsibility. They have everyone's input in Eve to improve on the game. If they want to experience Eve then they need their own developer environment. They should never be a part of any alliance in game. Its simple really...noone likes to lose, and this is evident in the recent allegations. CCP can whitewash all they want, but the community knows what they've done.....they are just lucky that they developed a super addictive game or 3/4 of the subscriptions would have been canceled long ago.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 12:44:00 - [308] So if this bothers you so much, leave....Self destruct all your ships in protest, then de-skill you character by suicide, also in protest. But just leave the game is a better way of showing your distrust in CCP. BUT FOR GODSAKE ENOUGH OF THESE "CCP ARE CHEATERS" threads......just leave. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Nox Solaris	Posted - 2007.05.29 12:48:00 - [309] Yes. GMs, Devs, Bug Hunters, and everyone else connected with how Eve runs should be in the actual game itself as 'players'... how else to see how things are actually functioning and being used then to be BBQ'd by some unforseen use of some creation?
Akiman	Posted - 2007.05.29 13:06:00 - [310] what if they are not allowed? they can play at home... and i dont believe they care what we are saying... if i gotta say something...they can play jovians or their own alliances tho again it wont make a difference... good man is good. bad man is bad. and i smell something bad from here.im still thinking bout suspending or not. even tho i love the game.
Gee Lok	Posted - 2007.05.29 13:08:00 - [311] I think it is great that devs and GMs play eve so that they intimately know their product. tbh eve would be crap otherwise.
Ben Nato	Posted - 2007.05.29 13:08:00 - [312] Originally by: Roshan longshot This is their game...they can do what they want to...I only wonder if you all complained and cried this hard when you played WoW? Another dillusional person who will buy a T.V without caring about it breaking. Good going.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 13:50:00 - [313] Wow look at all these alts.... You got somthing to say about CCP? Post with your main! And use the corp and alliance settings so we know who you are. Like I said before dont like it, leave...there is the door right over there. Dont let it hit you on the arse... Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.29 13:55:00 - [314] Originally by: Roshan longshot Wow look at all these alts.... You got somthing to say about CCP? Post with your main! And use the corp and alliance settings so we know who you are. Like I said before dont like it, leave...there is the door right over there. Dont let it hit you on the arse... Hiding oneÆs head in the sand is dangerous, as you invite anyone to come along and mess with your bottom.
Saladin Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.29 14:45:00 - [315] I'll keep this simple - No I don't think they should anymore. ----
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.05.29 14:45:00 - [316] Originally by: Roshan longshot But just leave the game is a better way of showing your distrust in CCP. Better than a public outcry? ORLY? :) By what logic? Because some fanboi says so?
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.05.29 14:47:00 - [317] It amuses me that so many of you spend so much time telling anybody who will listen how you absolutely don't trust CCP, a company you've handed your credit card details over to. but then i think CCP have Eve's (and indirectly, our) best interests at heart, even if they **** it up occasionally. so i'm not overly fussed.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.29 14:53:00 - [318] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Roshan longshot But just leave the game is a better way of showing your distrust in CCP. Better than a public outcry? ORLY? :) By what logic? Because some fanboi says so? Fanboi me...naw my sub ends on the 19th of next month. What about yours mr alt? Just leave. recycle all your toons, unistall eve, and leave. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.29 14:55:00 - [319] Originally by: Cypherous Originally by: CrestoftheStars So I say: No they should not be in the game as a player. And I say: YES they should remove there character so they can concentrate on what we are giving them the money for. The problem is they are not mutially exclusive, they can't program and improve a game they aren't playing as they will just make unbalanced changes, the facts of life are they need to be able to play and they shouldn't be banned from playing just because they have access to these high level tools. QFT, only problem with having a game that's 1 universe, 1 server. But oh well.
Popoi GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.29 15:16:00 - [320] Edited by: Popoi on 29/05/2007 15:20:55 Edited by: Popoi on 29/05/2007 15:15:04 I don't really buy the "They need to play to balance the game" argument. They have a whole server that they can use test things without compromising the live game. Combined with volunteers from the actual playerbase ("form a gang of 15 with your usual setups, and come kill this gang of developers"), there's not a lot about the real game they can't simulate. The bonus about that method of player experience is that it completely avoids the potential conflicts of interest that come from giving Devs/GMs a social role in the game. There are basically two solutions to prevent a conflict of interest: A total ban on personal interaction with the game , or strong internal controls to enforce a partition between personal and professional behavior. The cat's already out of the bag on the former, and the public side of CCP's investigations hasn't given me a whole lot of confidence that they can pull off the latter.
Liam Money Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.29 15:25:00 - [321] I think Devs and GM's should be allowed to play the game for the interest of research and further development, however they should not be allowed to be part of a player corp or alliance, there is a conflict of interest for them to stay unbiased and "research" the game. Give the GM's and Devs their own corp, they can run ops, set up towers, take space, lose space, pirate, or whatever. This would give them a full understanding of the game of EVE without having the incentive to "tinker" with the game in any way in which to further the interests of a player corp.
Royaldo KVA Noble Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.29 15:28:00 - [322] NO, they should not play on tq. "OK, I'm getting mildly offended by you now, Bhaal. That's just ridiculous. In june, close to 1000 paying accounts were banned. You do the math on how much that costs us financially."
Sam Reynolds Caldari Blue Sun Holdings Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2007.05.29 18:18:00 - [323] I posted my thoughts on this here, but I'll share it again since it's relevant. Quote: And proposals that devs shouldn't be able to play the game they created? Give me a break - if anyone with that thought in their head is even capable of slinging code (I am), how fun would it be to create such a great game and not be able to experience it yourself? I could see dev (and associated role) churn happening at a high level, which always leads to a compromised product. I am glad that employees USE THE PRODUCT and are passionate enough about it to always be improving it, because they want to see it improved.
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.29 19:40:00 - [324] Originally by: Sam Reynolds I posted my thoughts on this here, but I'll share it again since it's relevant. Quote: And proposals that devs shouldn't be able to play the game they created? Give me a break - if anyone with that thought in their head is even capable of slinging code (I am), how fun would it be to create such a great game and not be able to experience it yourself? I could see dev (and associated role) churn happening at a high level, which always leads to a compromised product. I am glad that employees USE THE PRODUCT and are passionate enough about it to always be improving it, because they want to see it improved. Careful. They don't much like intelligent posting here. It appearantly makes you a BoB alt. I'd be careful 'round these parts if I were you! ------------------------- Sigs are for noobs.
ho chiminh Gallente SlackaNova	Posted - 2007.05.29 20:30:00 - [325] Originally by: Liam Money I think Devs and GM's should be allowed to play the game for the interest of research and further development, however they should not be allowed to be part of a player corp or alliance, there is a conflict of interest for them to stay unbiased and "research" the game. Give the GM's and Devs their own corp, they can run ops, set up towers, take space, lose space, pirate, or whatever. This would give them a full understanding of the game of EVE without having the incentive to "tinker" with the game in any way in which to further the interests of a player corp. Yeah Great, give them their own corp. Of course a CCP employee with insider knowledge of Eve and how it runs etc would NEVER CREATE AN ALT to profit from that knowledge. TBH though, if one were dedicated one could work 8 hours and then go home and play for 8 hours with an alt or a separate account. Bottom line you can't keep game creator employees from playing game, in Eve or any other game. Best you can do is police 'em and live with the results.
Gorken Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.05.29 21:00:00 - [326] Upset?: Well, yeah. Quitting?: Going to set a long skill and take a break for awhile. Check on how all this unfolds in the mean time. Should they play in the game?: Of course they should! However, the customer's trust and respect doesn't mean much to them apparently as they have shown through their own actions. Do you like the the Game?: Best MMO I've played in many ways, yet the disrespect for the customer ruins the best game. It just seems that some of the devs play & create the world of EVE only for themselves, with the customers as their tolerated lap-dogs that they allow in their virtual world. I don't think that of all, just a few.
Trevedian Amarr KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.05.29 22:01:00 - [327] I really think this is witch hunt is ridiculous... Sharkbait was just doing his job! Of course CCP employees, GM's, ISD, should be allowed to actually play the game they are responsible for creating, updating, modifying, and maintaining. Players that believe that CCP should have no involvement on Tranquility fail to grasp that THIS IS A GAME. Chastizing people who are just doing their job when you don't understand things could be very destructive to someones career and livelyhood. EVE is an incredibly complicated game and has evolved in ways (i'm sure) that no one imagined. CCP employees need to be involved as directly as they can be in order to provide the best product for their clientele. EVE is a great game that has provided me with years of enjoyment, I'd hate to see a scandal orchestrated by scaremongers hurt its reputation. Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
Dravisain Minmatar Prime Order	Posted - 2007.05.29 22:22:00 - [328] The problem is the few individuals that ruined it for the rest of us in the game. Like the tech II BPOs in BoB (without going into it further) that may have caused some monetary and unfair advantage. Intelelligence gathering, many claim to have been gleamed from developers. Others with chat convos of the future of inventions, so sell the tech II BPOs right away because they will become useless. Whether true or not, tarnishes the reputation of CCP I think being able to spawn BPOs was a really bad example of GM powers being abused. it was worst when he wasn't fired. that is just sending a bad signal to the players betrayed by this action. (Remember, for every advancement an alliance makes in 0.0, some other alliance had to be defeated) They should be allowed to play however. But limited and monitored. The policy should be clear, any abuse and You are FIRED! That is where T2 went wrong. He was just a gui delveloper, he deserved the boot. CCP should still fire someone willing to ruin the game and cheat for the advancedment of his alliance. Hell, if buying isk with money is bad; buying a character on ebay is a banable offense. What should be the punishment for spawning tech II BPOs that generate BILLIONS of isk in income. The rule should be clear, YOURE FIRED! So let them play, but with short leash. Otherwise limit developers to test server only. And GMs to have every incident of spawning tech II BPOS, faction ships, +4 implants LOGGED and reviewed on a weekly basis. there is nothign much we can do to limit their intel for their alliances, bummer.
ssorion Caldari The First Foundation Stella Polar	Posted - 2007.05.29 23:39:00 - [329] Originally by: Trevedian Players that believe that CCP should have no involvement on Tranquility fail to grasp that THIS IS A GAME. Chastizing people who are just doing their job when you don't understand things could be very destructive to someones career and livelyhood. EVE is an incredibly complicated game and has evolved in ways (i'm sure) that no one imagined. CCP employees need to be involved as directly as they can be in order to provide the best product for their clientele. EVE is a great game that has provided me with years of enjoyment, I'd hate to see a scandal orchestrated by scaremongers hurt its reputation. This is NOT a game. This is MMO business, and people pay money here. CCP provide services here. Employes should WORK instead PLAYING the game. Work may involve 'testing' or even some game-playing, but only from employee of CCP point of view. Providing good services and being 'too involved' are contradicting statements. When developer get 'too involved', he start to play instead of working. Including so-called 'meta play', involving using his developer capabilities to aid his and his alliance clause. If developer only fly capships in 0.0, how could he improove empire ? Or mining ? Or 'support'-class ships ? Being tooo involved in his alliance warfare, he knows NOTHING about how other parts of game works.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.05.29 23:53:00 - [330] Originally by: ssorion This is NOT a game. This is MMO business, and people pay money here. CCP provide services here. Employes should WORK instead PLAYING the game. yeah cause everyone at ccp is expected to work 23/7, downtime is just there so they can sleep

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